The Little Mermaid with Honey Pluton

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women inum? Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?
Do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start changing
it with the beck del cast. Hi, so you're about
to hear an episode about Disney's The Little Mermaid, a

(00:22):
popular across a popular movie. It was recorded in Seattle
at the jewel Box Theater. Yes, but before we get
to that, we have a whole slew of things we
would like to plug, just upcoming shows. We're touring once again,
can you believe it? So before we go on tour though,

(00:43):
our our first show chronologically coming up is at the
Ruby in Los Angeles on April six, and we're doing
Bring It On with Maggie Maggie returning favorite Uh. In
mid April, we're gonna be in Denver just doing some
and up shows to be announced on our individual website. Yes.

(01:04):
And then me, Caitlin High, I'm gonna be doing my
intro to screenwriting workshop in Denver at Comedy Works on
April so again, yeah, check out my website Caitlin Drown
dot com for those details. And then also I'm gonna
be at Penn State University in State College, Pennsylvania on April.

(01:27):
I'm doing a stand up show there at the Carnegie Cinema.
On April. We're going to be at the Bellhouse in
Brooklyn with Melissa E. Losada Oliva doing a live show
on thirteen, going on thirty. Tickets for that are already
going really fast, so if you're on the fence, definitely
get your tickets soon. They're selling very quickly. Huh and uh.

(01:50):
That's the first date of our little East Coast tour.
The next one is April. We're gonna be a good
good comedy theater in Philadelphia, and I will be doing
my show Boss Home Is Girl right after the betel
Cast live show that very same night, so stick around
for that. Then on May one, we're going to be

(02:11):
at the Draft House Comedy Theater in Washington, d C.
And then on May second we will be back at
the Women in Comedy Festival in Boston. We're gonna be
at the Rockwell. That's on May second. And then for
all you little New Yorkers out there, I'll be back
in New York on May nine doing Boss Home Is
Girl at Union Hall an Oh my goodness. I'll also

(02:34):
be doing something in New York myself. It's the same
day as our New York show. On April, I'm going
to be doing another intro to screenwriting workshop, so come
and learn from me a master a master um. And
we're still in the process of confirming guests and movies
for most of those dates, so just stay tuned to

(02:55):
the Twitter, the Instagram, etcetera. Will be releasing that info
ace app, so go to backdel cast dot com for
details on the live podcast shows and keep an eye
on the social meats social And finally, we just wanted
to plug our campaign to raise money for the organization
called Black Girls Code, Uh, and we are doing that

(03:17):
by selling Rise of the Matriarchy t shirts. There's only
a few days left because the campaign ends at the
end of March, so as much money as possible, So
please grab the Rise of the Matriarchy shirt. Designed it myself.
It's cute, it's adolerable, and grab it at t public
dot com slash the backdel Cast. Only a few days

(03:38):
left and uh, we'd really appreciate it if you helped
us made our goal indeed, and uh go ahead and
enjoy the episode. No further ado the Little Mermaid del Cast, Hi,
what's up under the show? Welcome to the Bechtel Cast

(04:01):
Live Seattle. Wow, We're so psyched you're here. This is
our last stop on our West Coast tour as our
first time coming here. We're so excited to be here,
to be here just out of curiosity. By round of applause,
who has listened to our show before? Hey, a coppul Okay,

(04:24):
my favorite clap as if you're embarrassed and want to disappear,
if you've never listened to our show before and this
is your first time, yep, that's those are the brave.
Thank Thank you to everyone who dragged their friends who
have never listened to the show before to the show. Yes,
thank you so much. This is how this is how
it goes. That's right. So for for the three of you,

(04:47):
I'll tell you what the show is. Uh. Bechtel Cast
is our podcast about the portrayal of women in movies
that is usually bad. Right, And we use the Bechtel
Test as a jumping off going to initiate that conversation,
and that, of course, as a media test created by
cartoonist Alison Bechtel that requires that a movie has two

(05:08):
female identifying characters with names who speak to each other
and their conversation has to be about something other than
a man. Today we have both an incredible guest and
a movie that had to be done sooner later. But
a movie at least, I don't want to speak for everyone,

(05:30):
but a great movie. Or it was we all used
to think. So, Uh it's a problematic slapper, Yes, I still.
I fully saw that this movie was playing in in
Los Angeles last weekend and I went and I cried
so much. It was Wait, this movie, hideous movie? What

(05:53):
about this movie makes you cry? Like? Which parts? Um?
You know? Lost youth? Okay, not to shame you for
emotions when I think of No, just like anytime I'm
confronted with something, not even confronted, Like I had a
lovely childhood for the most part, but I just was
like I had, like I have a nostalgia Fawcett and

(06:14):
that just turns on and like I saw this once
and I'm like, I was crying. And there were also
a bunch of cute kids dressed as mermaids there. I
probably looked like a pervert being at this place. Uh,
I am alone, adult, but there, but there were a
bunch of cute kids that were so excited, and when
Ariel came on screen, they were like yeah, and then

(06:36):
I cried. So kids are still watching this movie. Um,
I think I guess their parents. Yeah, I mean yeah, unfortant.
So that's why we're here. Um. But I do still
have a crying response to this movie. I see, I
love it. I cry for the entire duration of Mowanna,
So I get it. But well, you're very welcome, congratulating,

(07:00):
Thank you. I cry at everything all the time, and
I like to pay to myself in circumstances where I
can cry in public and it is not inappropriate. I
wouldn't say that a public screening of The Little Mermaid
is now that he said, I'm always just looking for

(07:22):
a dark space to cry, a dark sanctioned space to
cryan just out of curiosity. Is there anyone here who
has not seen Disney's The Little Mermaid? Good? Great? This
is the first time this has ever happened at a
live show. We've done probably like twenty live shows now,
and there's always like ten people who are like, I've

(07:45):
never seen the movie you're talking about, and then one
person who's like, I'm at the wrong event. So all right,
this is great. Shall we introduce our guests? All right?
They are a local Seattle comedian. They're the co host
of the Hot Takes with Hot Dikes podcast and you
can check them out on their website, Clara Pluton dot org.

(08:08):
Give it up for Clara Pluton. God. Well, come, hi,
how are you doing here? Oh my god? Thanks for
having me. This is great. Um, tell us your your history,
your relationship with the Little Mermaid. My relationship with the

(08:29):
Little Mermaid has always been sparse, even like as a child,
I was a lesbian, Like, I didn't like it. I
was like, this is fake news. I don't want anything
to do with this. This seems wrong. I didn't like
princesses growing up. I like Pokemon Sailor Moon was like
the closest thing to a princess. Yes, someone was like feminist,

(08:52):
totally nice, but you've seen it. I've seen it, so
I think I watched it maybe once as a we one,
but it really was when I had to watch it
for this and I sunk my teeth into yes, it
just did it. It never appealed to me. I was like,
why would someone not want to be a mermaid? Doesn't
make any sense, right, I was like, where's my version

(09:13):
where I turned into a Mermaid? Yeah, I plunged myself
deeper into the ocean. Parents like where are you? I'm
like trying to find this cool world that people want
to leave for some reason that makes sense reverse dingle
hoop literally, yes, under the ocean. Yeah, Jamie, what's your

(09:35):
history with the movie? It makes me cry? I I
don't know. I mean I I had the Disney Renaissance
catalog hammered into me as a kid, as a child
who uh needed to be shut up. Very often VHS
tapes were employed into your mouth, shut up, they would
I would have the VHS for Dumbo in my mouth

(09:57):
so I could not make a noise, and I would
be watching a Little Mermaid uh double festingg Disney. Yeah. Well,
my mom ran a daycare when I was growing up,
so there would always be something playing for like whatever
rogue child would wander into rooms. So we were playing
Disney movies at our house all the time for like

(10:18):
the first ten years of my life. So I was
very attached to this movie and most of the princess
movies of this era. And I do think it affected
me negatively. Yeah, for sure, Say what about you. This
movie came out when I was like three, and I
probably saw it when I was five, and then every

(10:38):
day for those like next ten years. Probably your fifteen
years old? Yes, correct, you went to your homecoming in
a full red wig. But does no one want to
date me? I would say I had a second wave
of love for The Little Mermaid in high school, weirdly
where I like loved it when I was a kid,

(11:00):
and then I loved it again as like a teacher
you could purchase a hot topic and I still love yeah. Continue,
Oh no, that's that's mostly it. Yeah, so this movie
is very ingrained into me. I'm sure it shaped my
you know, Plato brain when I was a small child
for the worst. So the philosopher right, yes, correct, you're

(11:25):
speaking of ancient speaking of ancient Greek philosophers. Shout out
to our producer Aristotle. He is not here, I know, sorry,
but our good friend Sammy is here. You might remember
from the She's the Man episode, so shut out for
true backtal heads. Yeah, you'll know. I just feel like

(11:48):
I never liked princesses because I always had too thick
of an attachment to irony, Like I couldn't deal with it.
I was like five and I wanted to watch David
Lynch's eraser Head. What I just got imo too quick?
I'm like, no musicals, it's too corny. You're a child
of nihilists. Fully, Fully, I came from Mitzscha and that's here.

(12:09):
I'm jealous. But the Little Mermaid at this age now
made me cry. So now it went like full throttle.
Now I want my youth back. I'm like, please give
it back to me. I wasted it away listening to
Marilyn Manson. I want to feel young again. Please. There
was also like and when I think maybe what motivated

(12:29):
my high school reappreciation was when I was in high school,
tumbler was becoming a thing. So there was a lot
of shitty fan art of like Ariel but like she
had tattoos and brilliant postmodern reimagine him or she'd have
like Apear doesn't even remember that she That was like

(12:50):
of all the Disney princess she was skateboarding like with
a fin It's like how And I was like, oh,
this is still nothing like me. But they just adapted,
like oh what was aspirational for me as a child
to what was aspirational to me as a teenager, which
is like a hot goth. Yeah, so um, yeah they

(13:11):
really they got me twice? Motherfucker's Disney. Should I do
the recap um? Alright? So we see an opening shot
of dolphins are jumping around in front of a ship
that later stinks what is this Titanic? Big? Okay, the
fish gets away. I start crying the second the fish

(13:34):
was like, who's Like, holy, I wish why why doesn't
he come back? Started to impost gender on this fish.
I don't know. We'd write a story in any case,
probably a non binary fish, I hope. So we meet Eric.
He's a prince. He's sailing on a shampoo's colonizing places,
probably with his other white sailors. He's also wearing a blouse.

(13:57):
He also plays the flue. The recorder the recorder worse
is a confirmed recorder. I was like, way, it sounds
like a recorder. Yeah, it sounds like a recorder. I
forgot that shot of him moodily sexily wearing a cape

(14:18):
the recorder, Like what do I do? Yes, he's such
a pisces. I got to say it, no, Shane, but
he gets like really like broody at one point and
I screenshot at it and posted it with a flute
and I got rose and they're like, no, idiot, it's
a recorder. I was like, okay, people in mind need
to chill out. But and then you see he spoiler alert,

(14:42):
flings the recorder into the sea, polluting. Yes, compost the recorder,
come on, so which kind of confirms that it's a
recorder because he flings it with the ease that one
may recording. But also real quick, Prince Eric really Eric,
like what prince is named? Eric? Could be like Eric Kobia.

(15:04):
I'm not buying it. Yeah, it's like basically like Prince Joey,
Prince Brendan, Prince Toby. Like, okay, Disney, do you think
that Donald Trump's son used to call himself Prince Eric
when he was Yes, I think he did. Shout out
to my brother Eric, who who does listen to the podcast,

(15:27):
so shout yeah, because I texted you Prince Erik HoTT
and you're like, the same name as my brother. Can't
do it, okay, So Eric, he's hanging around, uh and
then the sailors are like, hey, have you heard of
this King Triton? And he's like, no, what are what
are mur people? And then we meet some murpy budgebold

(15:48):
perverts tell us about the mur people. Yeah, King Triton,
we meet Sebastian the Crab. He's conducting a concert and
all of Triton's daughters are singing except for Ariel. Comes
on Shane and all the kids in the costumes. You're like, yeah, ever, okay,

(16:08):
because remember in the Bomb's World days where it was
like hidden things you didn't see in Disney movies. And
it's like on the cover of the Little Mermaids there's
a penut Tryan's castle. So the whole movie I was like,
where's the penis? I had my binoculars out, like real
to see the sneaky penis. All subsequent releases post eighty
nine they take out all the because the priest has

(16:30):
a boner in the original movie, and they edited, they
edited censorship. I know, it's like, where is our erect,
tiny old man representation? And I'm ready, I'm horny erasure. Yeah.
So we meet Ariel. She is exploring a shipwreck, much

(16:51):
like Bill Paxton in Titanic, and she's there with her
fish friend Flounder, because the thing is that she loves
humans stuff, So she's like collecting all these artifacts a
fork and basically a paleontologist, except humans are a hoarder. Yeah. No,
I don't like calling her like she is. She My

(17:13):
whole thing with Area is like she starts like having
an intellectual interest in something, and then it's like taken
away from her. And then they're like, actually you need
a boyfriend, and she's like, oh, yeah, that's true. And
then the movie she was trying to be she was
trying to be an archaeologist, a woman in stem You will, well,
I think that she is. I don't know, you can't

(17:35):
have a collection and not be I sound really defensive. Yeah,
you're right. It's not like it was snow globes. It
different variety that inspired She was curious about that waterproof
books stuff. And then she takes them lot of scuttle.
He lies to her about, right, I'm tired of scuttle. Uh.

(18:00):
And then we meet Ursula. She's a sea witch and
she's better for having been banished from the Sea Palace.
So she wants her eel friends Flotsam and Jetsam to
keep an eye on Ariel because she might be the
key to Triton's undoing. Plots of and jets undered their
own spin off. Yeah, parismatic and fun to me, Like

(18:24):
Tomona Pumba got one right, them up to no good
squash buckling. I just wish the Flotsam and Jetsam had
like different personalities, Like where's who's cranky in the morning.
We just don't know who's like the night owl, who's
like get to bed on time, who's like five years sober?
And who's still it's Flotsom is addicted to ketamine. It's

(18:52):
canonical Ariel. She's talking to Triton and flounder led to
slip the it she went to the surface and like
you can't do that because humans are evil and Barbara,
I'm not a child. It's my favorite, like, oh she's sixteen. Yeah,
for what happens later? Um, And here's where I really

(19:15):
start to see myself an Ariel, because like going to
the surface for me and like sneaking, Like I was
sneaking around all the time at sixteen, but it wasn't
the surface. It was like raves on the South Side
of Chicago and like abandoned Chinese restaurants, So like I
get it. Yeah, And that's the same for Ariel. Except
she's got like a cave of wonders basically, and she

(19:37):
keeps all her human artifacts there. And Sebastian follows her there,
and she's singing about how she wants to be part
of the human world, and then we see some amazing
shots of her hair and some great hair shots, and
just then a ship traveling overhead goes by, and she's like, wow,

(19:58):
who's this man? And her? The movie really falls apart, right,
I like the movie up to that point. And Anthropologist, Yeah,
it's over. She literally starts as a young scientist and
then she's derailed by heteronormativity. Uh. And the hurricane strikes

(20:20):
and Eric's ship is destroyed and Ariel saves him and
she sinks to him and he starts to wake up,
and he sees her upper body but not her mermaid
fish tail gets horny. He gets very horny. He's like,
I was dead but now I'm alive in horny. But

(20:40):
she disappears into the ocean before he can like fully
regain consciousness, and he was like, oh, my god, who
was that. If Eric's Dogg could talk, this movie would
be over so fast. Because Eric's Dogg repeatedly has the receipts,
but not like the communication that Eric would have been

(21:01):
able to write a Craigs less misconnection like saw hot girl,
maybe teen not sure, perhaps a mermaid. Good back to me,
here's my kick you please, And then Ariel is swooning
and Sebastian tries to convince her that where she belongs

(21:22):
is under the sea and the great song that we
all loved, but she's not having it. And then try
and founds out the Ariel is in love with a human.
So he destroys all of her stuff. I hated that
seeing that it still upsets me. It's very upset, like
full flashbacks of my dad, like throwing my bob down
the stairs. He's like, I found sheets of acid again,

(21:47):
I'm burning them all. I'm like no. And then so
Ariel goes to Ursula based on the promise that she
will use magic to turn Ariel into a human for
three days, and if she gets Eric to kiss her
by the end of the day on the third day,
she gets to stay a human forever. And if she fails, yes,

(22:09):
as we all know, and if she fails, she will
belong to Ursula yea. And as payment, Ursula takes Ariel's voice,
So she has legs but no voice, and she goes
to the surface some artfully dodged nudity in this state.

(22:29):
I'm still shocked at how far down the torso you
goes like when do mermaid pubes start coming in? Because
I'm not seeing any great question, Thank you so much.
My favorite line in the movie it's from the song
where Ursula takes Ariel's voice, obviously, which is men prefer
women to not make a word? Yeah, just children? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(22:59):
It's I think the best Disney song of all time.
Poor unfortunate souls. So Ariel's animal friends are helping her.
She finds Eric and he's like, oh, you're really cute.
What's your name? And she can't talk, so he's like,
you're even better, right, marry me? Well, he says, do

(23:22):
I know you? He doesn't say you're hot? Well, he
said he thinks. He's like, hey, were you that girl
that made me horn you when I thought I was dead?
Did I see you at the party last night? I
was too nervous to say anything. I was like sort
of black dab, but you look familiar, Like do you
go here? That is something that Eric's do. He just

(23:47):
comes from like a line of like swashbuckling frat bros. Yeah,
you know you're pretty chill. What's your name? Don't care,
can't talxic. I want to come to my house. It's
a castle. My dad lets me of a castle. It's
pretty cool. I don't even know what he does, like
stockbroker or whatever. There's this lady there. She'll give you
a bath. It sounds us, but it is not sus

(24:14):
because she can't talk. He's all like, oh, you're not
the woman who I thought you were, but I'll let
you hang out with me anyway. And he takes on
a tour of the town. They're on a rowboat at night.
There's another slab that's great but problematic, and um they

(24:34):
almost kiss and then Ursula was like, oh my god,
that was too close. So lots of and jetsam come
in clutch every time flotsom into Ursula is work from home. Yeah,
botsom and jetsas that are in the fields, right, they're
out there. So to prevent any more close calls, Ursula
disguises herself as a human woman and then uses the

(24:57):
voice that she stole from Ariel to like seduce in
an chant eric yes and then it's announced that Eric
is getting married the next day because he was under
a spell of horny correct and he's supposed to be
getting married to the woman that is pretending to be
Vanessa Vanessa Vanessa Vanessa and Eric. Yeah. So then Ariel,

(25:23):
she and her friends are trying to stop the wedding. Well,
Aria gives up right away. She's like, like when it's
like all of her friends that had to be like, no,
let's try to do something. She's She's like no because
she has no agency at this point. And the second
she loses her voice, we just lose the character entirely.
It sucks. But then she gets her voice back because

(25:43):
like the shell necklace breaks scuttled galvanizes the various sea
creatures that are annoying and that's sort of their role.
But it's too late because the sun has set and
she turns back into a mermaid and and snatches her up,
and all the humans are very chill about like, oh,

(26:04):
I guess there's mermaids. There's no, that's not a dress
that I mean. There's a lot of people at this wedding,
and she turned into a mermaid right in front of them,
and then a person they thought was a person explodes
into an octopus, and we never get their side of
this story. And in fact, we don't really know what

(26:27):
happens to the people on the boat, because I mean,
what happens to the wedding game right, because about a
half hour later the boat sink again. Maybe because she
enhances in size by like eight thousand times and that
spell was unclear to me. I think they were like,
we're having mimosas, there's canopas. Maybe it's I don't know,

(26:52):
maybe they're regularly doing hallucinogenics. They're like, well, wild weddings,
but this action I'll wasca ceremony. But do the people like,
do we know what happens? I truly haven't thought of
it this like, do we know what happens to the wedding?
Guess I don't think so, No, there are so many
people that way. What happens is that the Boner Priest

(27:14):
justice for Boner weird, so Ursula like uses aerial as
leverage to get the power away from King Triton, and
then she, yeah, she like also King Triton kind of zaddie.
He's very like yeah, yeah, I mean he is. He's

(27:34):
very buff. Long beard like Zeus vibe. The fact that
his nipples are very visible throughout the entire movie is
something that I noticed as a five year old and
never I thought about nothing else. The way his nipple,
the way his nipples are drawn. First of all, he's
also hairless, which is like, okay, uh, he's a smooth zaddie.

(28:00):
But there's no distinct. I'm sure because like Disney things
that any detailing of the body in a realistic way
is repulsive. But there's no distinction between nipple and ariola.
It's just like vague, large blob and you're like so,
and I remember literally being like so that's what men look.
They're just sort of a pancake, Like that's my dad. Yeah,

(28:24):
they're like, oh cool, never seen my dad's shirtless. He's
a humble man. So now I know, smooth part of
Disney cannon. Like there's like no moms in Disney movies.
We'll get there, yeah, yeah, don't worry there. Yeah, mommies
are canceled. Yeah, he's like the scrappy divorce. He's like,

(28:45):
I got all these daughters. Yeah, they're up to seven daughters.
I love to hear, like, oh, I don't know what
daughters where that movie he's my Lady Gaga's dad and
a star is born. Ye, He's like, I'm busy us.

(29:09):
God here, I'm smashing your stuff. Dice can't even handle
one daughter. Man can give Dice seven. He's gonna screw up.
Why was Dice in that movie? And you don't know anyway.
So La is huge and she's trying to kill Eric
and an Ariel and she the thing is, she gets

(29:30):
very large, yes, and then Eric takes what used to
be a Sounken ship and drives it into her pointy
end first and bursts her and then she dies. Yeah,
she's also made. She's made to seem like unkillable, what
with the growing quite large, but then is immediately killed

(29:50):
right right, right right. Plat and Jackson also die. That's
why there's no spinoff. They are killed and see them
in how immediately Yes, And then in the the math
of all that, Ariel is looking longingly at Eric on
a beach and try and it's like, wow, she really
loves him. I have to let her go. And then
he turns her into triarchal structure to the next turns

(30:14):
her into human again, and she goes and kisses and
marries Eric, and that is the story of feminist masterpiece
The Little Mermaid. So there you have it. And by
the way, I guess, just as we were talking it
out now, the ship they get married on is within
the past few weeks, the third ship that Eric has

(30:36):
needed to buy rent. Yeah, he's gave me his black X.
I keeps crashing all these blokes. Prince Eric is a
magnesis memory. He went to Firefestfest. He's like, oh, ship,

(30:59):
I put a dred thousand dollars on my fireband. It's
so fucking embarrassing. He's in the dot like I wanted
to do body shots on Bellahadi is like for my birthday.
My wife Ariel let me go. She's super chill, alright. So,
I mean there are problems that people has been talking

(31:21):
about for a long time now, the various obvious ones
where you know, Ariel changes herself and sacrifices basically every
significant thing about herself so that she can be with
a man all agency there. Yeah, there's you know, Ariel's
voice being taken away, and you know she doesn't have
access to any language that allows her to communicate effectively.

(31:43):
This is an interesting movie. When we were like setting
up this episode because we're like the criticism around this
movie is so well known that to some extent it's like, yeah,
it's like we all know this, but there's like there's
but there's more, more, there's more. I feel like one
of the other more obvious ones is like Eric falling
in love with her despite not knowing anything about her,
because again, she cannot communicate in any way. I'm a

(32:05):
septender and that happens like every ship. Every ship is
like whoa, I think I love you, I don't know
anything about you, Like this is so much fun for me,
Like if only you couldn't talk. So let's dive into
perhaps some of the intended Where should we start. I

(32:30):
mean we're tuan. Let's start with Ursula as a mean lesbian. Okay,
let's do it. There's a lot of queer coding in
this movie, and I just think like Ursla is the
most badass person the whole movie. She just like hates
straight people, like we'll do anything in her power to
take their power away. Because obviously flatsam jetsam dating like

(32:53):
balk icons. It's like are they brothers? Were boyfriends? We
don't know. We don't have to know that they're they're touchy.
If they're brothers, they're touchy brother they're regularly like the
skin to skin, they're there. They've got to be dating,

(33:13):
or they're creepy brothers. And she just wants to ruin.
She's like, I don't want straight people to be happy,
and I don't want you to be happy, so we're
gonna make this all your problems. I'm like, you're you're
a badass. You're a sea witch? Why is that bad?
Why Disney movies telling kids not to be witches? Also,
which until Halloween Town when we realized it was actually fine.

(33:39):
And part of what I noticed on this watch because
I've been I was so brainwashed by this movie is
that we get really no explanation as to why Ursula
is not a part. We don't know why is there
no one else in this story that looks anything like her,
Like we're like people, right, and there's like so much

(34:00):
to the point where it's like I feel like implied
that she's extricated because she's mothered in this way and
there's not even an attempt. She's just like, well, I
used to be a part of this, but now I'm not,
And like there that's all you get, And there's no
we're just supposed to assume that Triton is right. A
man is rightly as as demonstrated by everything else he

(34:24):
does in the movie, He's almost never right. He's not
a good ruler, nor is he a good father. Like
there you know, so that had never struck me before.
Like they're just like, no, this is the villain, and
this is what a villain looks like, and accept it. Right?
She did you notice that the like structure that she
comes out of the first time that she's introduced is

(34:45):
like this volva, it's just a does she tumble out
of the magine incredible? She wipes her mouth. She's like,
I was busy, pasty animals. It's like, why does the
cool fat dike with short hair have to be bad?
I'm like, I'm the whole time she's awesome. She's annoyed

(35:07):
with clearly something I mean right when we just we did.
We just don't know anything about why she has been banished. No,
there was probably like a Lilith Fair back in the
day with other like tentacle lesbians, and then Triton canceled
it because he wanted to have like Diplo play, but

(35:29):
where did all the other Tentacle people go? Like, It's
just I was, I was more frustrated. I mean in
Ursula is the best most interesting character in the movie
by far. She's got the best songs, She's got the
best henchman like Flossom and Jetsam could murder Flounder like there,

(35:50):
they could kill him like Flounders Fox too, because it's
like I feel like he's also the trope of like
dopey fat boy, you know what I mean, where he's
like chubby and he's like I'm slow, wait up for me.
It's like wait up for him. Yeah, he's taking his
time and he and you're also being reckless area out there,
I mean playing off of that too. It's like, oh,

(36:11):
he's like a chubby boy character and he's a coward
like and that's such a pervasive trope with that too.
It's just like they're scared of everything and blah blah ba,
and it's like, come on, she cuts all the crust
off my sandwiches. I don't know if I can go
in there well. La is also I have a few

(36:32):
theories that have been testing out on the podcast, so
you may have heard these before. But movies with female
villains usually have a female protagonist because I feel like
it's implied that female villains can't pose much of a
threat to male protagonists, so this reinforces that theory. Also,
movies where a female villain makes potions and stuff like

(36:53):
it is like a subtle way to villainize women in stem. Wow,
female scientists be dangerous. We see this in Disney movies
a ton it's even up to as recently as The
Incredibles to where that was a woman in stem and
a villain. Interesting, and that's so true in every way.

(37:14):
And it's also like it's like they don't want to
teach young girls that you should be scared of men,
and like the patriarchy is bad, so we're gonna put
like this lady, this fat woman on it, so you
should like fear body positivity and queerness and like your
own mother. It's like I don't like it, right, I
mean yeah, and it and it does like all this
whole genre movie does so much work to separate women

(37:37):
from other women, to the point where it's very hard
to see women even in the same scene where going
off what you're saying, I mean, this whole movie. And
this is like said all the time, but it's about
Ariel being passed off from one patriarch, her dad, and
just being handed off with his permission to another man

(37:58):
into like this different heteronormative, oppressive structure and she, you know,
it's like she is given agency for maybe ten minutes,
but then the rest is decided and swayed by how
the men around her act. And in the meantime, any
woman who is seen acting on her own is acting

(38:20):
maliciously and acting to take another woman down. And there
is so much done to us, I think when we're
young to make other women seem like a threat to Like,
there's so much done to prevent women from talking to
each other because then we'll like figure out it's all
a scam, Like I don't know, but yeah, that is,

(38:42):
and that's what I friends are women either like none
of the supporting characters or women. Yeah, they're they're surrounded
by different men, Like why couldn't founder just like be
a girl, Why couldn't it be like girl power or
why couldn't we see what her relationship is with all
who are like they're who are named in this movie,

(39:04):
but they're all basically the same they're interchangeable. We know
nothing about nothing about them. It would have been so
easy to have two sisters in conflict of like one,
you know, Ariel wants to go to the surface, one
sister doesn't think it's a good idea. Like why we're
like one of her sisters being in like the Sebastian
role where she's like, I'm tattling on you. Because women

(39:27):
having jobs in this world, like they're literally in as
far as we know the Mermaid world, women are performers
and that's backstage. Yeah, for when Triton wants a little ditty,
he's like, gals, you know. But yet we don't see
the sisters interacting with Ariel at all, which is strange

(39:47):
because whenever she's like, oh but if I become a human,
I'll never see my father or sisters again. So we
don't We don't know because here the examples of them
interacting in the movie. Um, one of them says, Ariel,
time to come out. You've been in there all morning,
because you know, women be in the bathroom, and I mean,
if they're in the sea, isn't it all a bathroom?

(40:09):
In they'll in a way the bathroom like in the ocean.
It's a bathroom. Ariel does not respond to this. Uh,
And then later another sister says what's with her lately?
And no one responds. So that is the interaction that

(40:30):
the sisters have with each other and with Ariel. So yeah,
it annoying a little bit more on like the character design.
Um so like with Ariel. Okay, you mentioned Jamie, like
her fish bottom is so low and her just like
body shape, her proportions like her it's not anatomical No,

(40:56):
there there was another thing that made the rounds a
couple of years ago, of like, where someone tried to
render what would a human with those proportions look like.
It's done with barbies every once in a while as well,
And it is predictively horrifying. Is the scariest thing you've
ever seen, just women with gigantic heads. It's like you

(41:16):
and but had three D. Yeah, I mean it is.
It is horrifying and designed to make little girls feel
bad about themselves so that they'll continue to buy products, products,
products for the rest of theirs. And also she explicitly
says in the movie that she is sixteen years old.
So the animators are like crazy over sexualizing a teenager,
I've got some freaky Okay. So the way that this

(41:41):
this movie is such a comes out at such a
strange point in time because at the time this came out,
it was considered of like, wow, a Disney princess is
allowed to do something. This was progressive at the time
and came before it. Why well, if we're talking princesses,
it's like Cinderella being beauties snow white, so truly like there,

(42:02):
like she's not unconscious, Like what's the problem, Like, shut up, feminist,
that's the literal bar we're coming in. It is like
she's awake the whole movie, So can she speak the
whole movie? No, it's you. They're like, let's give us
a few years, maybe we'll let her talk, but she
will be a prisoner. And that movie is Beauty and

(42:24):
the Beast. But you know that's a feminist next because
she can read fucking stupid. But the way that people
reviewed this movie at the time, I mean, much of
the problem with film criticism is it's so male dominated,
and in nineteen is even more so. The way people

(42:46):
right about this cartoon is pornographic. Theys here's an l
A Times clip Mermaids saucy heroin. Ariel isn't much like
anderson sad noble sea maid. She's a sexy little honey
bunch with a double scalloped seashell bra and a mane

(43:11):
of red hair tossed and tumble out of bed so
cow style like, so cow style, Like so what is
he talking about? So cow style? What is she longboarding?
It is discus and then and then put him to
the Sharks, and then in the Boston Phoenix. Uh, this

(43:33):
one is uh, let's see, Ariel is sexy as well
as sympathetic, and Orlando Sentinel, Ariel is sympathetic and in
her little bikini top rather hot. You're just like everyone. Yeah,
so you know, just a reminder that straight men are
scary and always want to cartoons, even when they're teenagers,

(43:58):
even when I mean, so, the way this character was received,
and I think in retrospect, like a lot of the
flag that Ariel receives has a lot to do with
the way adults viewed and spoke about this character, because
they're like, what, Disney princesses are hot and I want
to fund them, now what? And it's like, Okay, that's
a youth there like that. Yeah, so anyways, per right, right,

(44:22):
but then what else is the Ariel is supposed to
wear a shirt, it'll get wet. The option besides double
scalloped bra like leave her along, I mean, unless we're
freeing the nipple under the sea, which I would embrace.
But then like contrast her character design with Ursula for example,
where and this is the case with I would say

(44:46):
every Disney villain where they're designed with body types that
do not adhere to like the western conventional western beauty standards,
to say the least, right, so you know, when children
are watching these movies and the heroes do would here
to those standards, and the villains don't, you know, our
mushy child brains are like doubles down right, It's like then, um,

(45:07):
you know, thin beautiful people are good and people who
are not that are bad. I mean, And the same
goes for like coded sexuality is like hetero people even
if they're evil, pancake nippled fathers who don't who can't
like rule it camedom to say, they're fucking they can't
rule their own penis kingdom. If they're straight, they're probably

(45:30):
good at their job and they're a great parent. They
because I think so much with Ursula too, it's like
because with the way that she's drawn, it's like how
bad of a thing it is to take up space.
It's like I would think that there's that too, where
it's like you like, these men are drawing these women
to be waves because that's how they want as much
space for women to take up, you know what I mean,

(45:52):
they want people to be quiet. But like like you're
large and you're allowed and you sing songs that are cool,
then you're bad. And then the thing with Ursula's character
design that is kind of like stray is from the
direct criticism a little bit, and there is a lot
of like gray area to get into with with this
discussion is that Ursula like canonically was modeled on Divine,

(46:17):
the drag queen who appeared in all of John Waters films,
and that was like the creators were pretty upfront about like,
this is who we designed this character after. And I
mean in in the gay community to an extent has
embraced that. And but it's just like the fact that
that is the option for queer visibility is fucking ridiculous.

(46:41):
I mean, it's just it's what's so amazing about Divine
and watching her movies is she is an example of
being like a fat gay person who is funny, who's radical,
who's outspoken, who knows what she wants. Everyone loves her
and if you don't love her, she'll kill you. Where
like she is Ursla, but like written by gay people.
Like that's why Divine is so incredible. Where it's like

(47:02):
when you let queer people write their own stories and
have their own narratives and they don't get to be
these like power hungry lesbians who want to eat redheads, right,
and like that is sometimes what we want to do,
but it's different and it's better because we said it,
and you win. Both people win, the red head and

(47:25):
the fat lesbian. Everyone win. There's a true happy hand
tank to this movie. Um Yeah. And then another another
thing worth mentioning is um there is like this weird
blend between most of the movies writers directors are straight guys.
But the composer of the songs and also of I

(47:48):
Think Aladdin and Beauty and the Beast, it was a
composer named Howard Ashman who was dying of aids throughout
the writing of the songs for all three of those movies.
And so there has been stuff. I mean, he never
said anything about it explicitly in terms of like how
his illness corresponded to his work, if at all, But

(48:08):
apparently he would advocate for like, Okay, I want to
write like a good song for this queer coded character
because at the time, like that's the only option for
a queer character to appear is coded and bad. But
Howard Ashman would write the best song for them? I mean,
I don't know, but it is it is interesting that,
I mean, there wasn't an openly queer composer writing all

(48:32):
these songs that are the best part of all of
the movies, Like whoever wrote all of shares songs? You
got to give the people what they want? Uh, So
you know he's the one penning the slappers. I just
think it's also so I mean clearly like a doy
to doy, like men rule everything. But it's like why

(48:53):
do men rule writing movies for children who are women?
Like I don't understand, Like why do men rule every thing?
Like why I don't get why women can't even write
movies for small girls. It doesn't make sense. They're like, no, actually,
we got this right, because even today they're uncomfortable looking

(49:13):
because even today, the same writers and directors of this
movie also were the major creative players of Mowanna, which
again is a feminist text, so they learned a bit
from between women forced them to learn was done. Yeah,

(49:34):
it is. I mean it's it's because all this Disney
stuff is like, I'm so skull fucked by all of that,
Like I can't I can't make Hazzard. But but it's
interesting to see this, you know, the same the same
directors seventeen years later. At least, even if they don't
want to, the culture had to force them to move
forward at least a little bit. Although why aren't women

(49:57):
allowed to direct Disney movies? Still? Yeah, I'm just not
really lucky that I never I never had a princess phase,
and I never liked Disney movies. So I do feel
grateful for whatever reason. My brain was never like Plato,
molded by that. But I was like, how can I
look like Jack Skellington, Like that was my ariel. That's
a that's a different form of body dysmorphia. Other unrealistic

(50:22):
bodies I've set for, Like mom, can I have a
have a straw? Black straw? Cape for Christmas. Please don't
ask why I wanted to talk a little bit about
arials agency and lack thereof and her like sense of adventure. Um,
because she is, as we mentioned, one of the earlier

(50:42):
Disney princesses that has any sort of agency spur of agency,
but she uses that agency to make a lot of
questionable choices. But you know, she's a teenager. We all
were idiots when we were teenagers. And then she also
has a sense of advance en sure much like the
other like doesn't renaissance princesses, where you know, Bell is

(51:04):
like I want so much more than this provincial life.
And this is the time that the like the literal
formula for these movies became like fully formed of like
there's always that song where the princess is allowed to
want something more, whatever that vague more is. It usually
isn't a relationship until two minutes later. Yeah, it's like

(51:25):
Ariel starts as uh character that you know, at least
there's there's something to her. She wants to learn more
about this culture she doesn't understand. She's investigating stuff, she's
collecting stuff, she's seeking out answers. Even if the only
person she knows is a dumbass seagull, like she there

(51:45):
was no internet, she couldn't she had to ask a seagull.
But she is like she is, I think, very active
and like you know, rebels against her father and starts
out as like, oh, you know, she's she's rejecting the
norm of her society. She wants to learn more, and
then yeah, the second after that statement is made in

(52:06):
part of your world pretty clearly, she's like listening, here's
things I'd like to know, and then as far as
we know, she never learns about. It's like, why couldn't
she have found like a map, you know what I mean?
And I'm just like, that's what's so frustrating, is like
this text just manipulates all of our like innate, beautiful
desires for freedom and like existential quandary. But these guys

(52:28):
in the writer's room are like, I just can't think
of anything else she could do that could take her
on a journey of self awakening. Let's get married at sixteen,
Like there's nothing else she could do, right. The princesses,
they have these a sense of adventure, but then they
never go on an adventure because they just meet a
man two seconds later, and then their adventure becomes they

(52:51):
literally never go further than like a mile from their house.
Jasmine doesn't even get to move like Aladda moves into
her house. It's like it's fucked up. And then I
wanted to talk out a little bit about just like
in the climax of the story. This is uh an
example of a movie where the protagonist does not get

(53:13):
to participate in the climax, and Ariel is completely sidelined,
very damseled, because Eric has to step in and like
kill Ursula and save the day. She does one she
does one thing at the climax, but she doesn't get
the conclusive moment that she She's even robbed of the
moment where she is able to get her own voice back,

(53:34):
like Scuttles, the one who like snatches the necklace. Scuttles
a dumb bitch, Like how dare he take that from her?
He doesn't even know what a bark is? All birds
know what works are, dumbass. Ariel does save a man
at the beginning, so that is the thing, but that's

(53:57):
hardly I think that at the time. This is like,
oh no, she does stuff, but it's all it's like
empty gestures because she's not even the hero of her
own story. What she does, which is pretty badasses that
she blows smog onto that pompous guy's face because she

(54:17):
like embarrassed a man because that dumbas bird was like
it's a recorder blow into She got to put like
tobacco ash in a man's mouth. So I'm like, that's feminist.
That was powerful, I'll take it, which made me think
that she kind of ends up becoming like the Born
Sexy Yesterday type for like at least a little bit

(54:40):
where when she gets to the human world because she
like she doesn't know what forks are. The thing is
the subverts that trope I think is that she quickly learned.
She like realizes that she's doing it wrong, and like, yeah,
I mean I I think you're the Born Sexy Yesterday.
There is something to that for this movie, because we're
at least there's like some vague like, oh, Eric, you know,

(55:04):
she's not the girl that he was horny for, but
he likes her because she doesn't know how to use
things like and that's a part of the borns. Yeah,
so that's like the Born Sexy Yesterday think of like
even though the movie's like, no, he likes her for
a reason, but it's like the reason he likes her
is because she's a little baby like right, you see,

(55:25):
Like there's like this unequal power dynamic between him and her,
where like the man knows how to conduct himself in
this world and she does not, and nor does she
have a voice to express her concerns or ask questions.
So it's worse even where and and yeah, like the
moments where Eric looks cool is when he knows how
to do basic ship, where he's like, oh no, it's

(55:50):
actually for just like I wish I was just seeing
where she got to acclimate to all these things that
she had in her treasure trove that she got to see. Now,
that would be cool if she, like, I don't know,
I was like, what's the chair? Like is it a hat?
Like who knows? Or if there is any moment where
she got to demonstrate something she knew that he didn't,
because there's a whole Mermaid. Yeah, there's a whole world

(56:13):
she's acquainted with that he knows nothing about. But he doesn't,
you know, I mean we guess. I guess part of
the reason that is is because the second he finds
out she's a mermaid, he both is like oh, and
and then the movie is over. So as soon as
she becomes a human, she can't swim anymore. Remember when
she dives in the sea to like go after the wedding,

(56:35):
she would have more powerful arms. But I don't know
what it's like to be a mermaid. But I think
it's all core. She I mean, she had her core,
and she she has legs. That's that's a big part
of swimming is legs. It's not as good as a
but like flounder has to like swim her to the boat,

(56:56):
like she can't even swim herself. My boys, Although I
mean it goes without saying that there's a lot of
allegedly sexy fish in this movie, however they're none of
them are as sexy as the fish from This Shape
of Water, who is still the sexiest fish with the

(57:19):
firmest ass. Oh, I would say, like second to that
fish should be Larry the labster from the spot. Oh. Yes,
top two sexy fish, Yes, sexy crustaceans and Larry icon
a buff icon. Uh. Can we talk a little bit

(57:39):
about the romance between Ariel and Eric romance right, Well,
she sees him and falls instantly in love with him,
which because movie, because movie, and that's also happens, like
I can even extend my view this in Scorpion, like
I can extend like seeing someone being like boiling like sure,

(58:00):
to an extent, but to the point where you neglect
what you've spent your whole life building simply Also, she's
a team Yeah, so there's no time spent developing their
relationship or establishing reasons why they might like each other.
It's just like that instant attraction that does happen, sure,

(58:22):
but it's grounds for a marriage. So yeah, this is
just it's a movie where the people are close to
each other and they are attracted to each other, so
they must get married. Well, another another thing that's mentioned
a lot in the early Disney Renaissance reviews of this
movie is oh Eric is the first prince that has
a personality, which again is like you, he doesn't, although

(58:44):
he does well recorder Cape, right, so they so recorder
Cape blouse. So we've got a lot of elements going on.
And because it's also like even the beginning of the movie,
like they're the men get to have they get to
have their storyline where they get to be like funny
and quirky and like I don't know that what's again
like the count olaf looking one who's like the old

(59:04):
Chancellor Grimsby. Also everyone's British except for Eric. I'm like,
I don't understand this, and the chef from who is
chef there thinks another there oh yeah, but like Grimsby
gets to give Eric this like big statue and then
like that gets to be like their little moment like

(59:25):
your old that isn't extended to like any woman in
the where they get to have this expose of personality. Well,
the thing is like they're they're saying like, oh, Eric
has a personality, but he really doesn't. But the reason
they're saying that is again because the bar is so
fucking low from previous princess movies where there's some there
it's always love at first sight, but it's like even

(59:45):
more boring love at first sight, where like the prince
in Sleeping Beauty is like oh and then he's like man,
Jesus sleep and he's I gotta go fight a dragon
but you barely see you like you don't anything. So
just because Eric is like I don't like statues and
I play the recorder, They're like, Wow, amazing progress character development?

(01:00:09):
Is it not like the other boy? I like the
other princes. The thing is if a boy, if I
met a boy when I was sixteen who played the recorder,
wore capes and brooded, I would I would fuck him.
I mean, so, you know, there's a lot of different

(01:00:31):
ways to view Insure, but I mean, like, because this
is a manic pixie dream prints kind of he's kind
of like an emo dream boy at times, but it's
like he doesn't really have that much of a personality
and we don't understand, right. And the thing is Ariel
does have a personality, but he doesn't know that right.

(01:00:52):
But you can't talk. Yeah, like this is a movie
targeted children, and like I under I understand like wanting
to simplify some thing as complicated as romantic love to
like cater to your intended audience, but also when you
do that, it sends very confusing and wrong messages. There
should be a Disney princess who gets divorced. Yeah, they should,

(01:01:14):
like it should start with a marriage that is not
working out, And she's like, actually, I want to get
an education. If you like eat, pray, love, but a
princess eat, pray, princess um. I also wanted to talk
about the spell and Sebastian's song because the spell that

(01:01:34):
our Sila puts on Ariel means that like she must
be kissed. So what means like a woman can't be
active in her own sexuality, like she has to wait
to be kissed. H And also the consent gets murky
true because like, yeah, the story requires her to need

(01:01:55):
to be kissed, but what if she's not ready? She
is six ten after Sebastian. There's like a bridge in
the song where Sebastian like explains basic consent definitely needs
like of course you're going to need a firm Yes,
I'm Sebastian instead him right yeah, because he says Ariel

(01:02:19):
and Eric's like, oh, I speak crap, So maybe he
does have a personality. Maybe maybe because the lyrics of
the song are actually this. Sebastian is like, you should
kiss the girl, and he says possible she wanted to.
There is one way to ask her it don't take
a word, not a single word, go on and kiss

(01:02:42):
the girl. So it encourages not to check in with
a girl to see who she wants to be kissed. Also,
just like informs that teen urgency too, because we all
think that we have to like kiss or make out
or like have sex from this like wildly young age
that were even aware of any of these things, where

(01:03:03):
it like really praise on the insecurity that you won't
be valid unless you're kissed and you got three days
to do it or you'll die, right, like your life
is ruined if you don't get approval from this man,
which is entirely maybe like what if Eric wasn't what
if Eric wanted to take things slow and then Ariel died? Right, yeah,

(01:03:24):
it's bad for for everyone. This mean like I have
three days until prom I haven't had sex. I'm gonna die.
But it no, it's not even that you'll die. It's
that is that someone you barely know will die. Yeah,
because because what if Eric was like, man, I just
like we need to also like to hear her talk.

(01:03:44):
We know, like yeah, it's like Ariel could write something down.
I mean we know she can write canonically, she can
write because she signed her name on the contract. So
there give the lady a quill, like right, she could
have expressed this. I don't know. I don't know. This
movie is a mess. And also it's so short, like
we were talking about sexstage that the movie is seventy

(01:04:06):
minutes long. You had like at least another really like
any of this down, so it wasn't just like we're
going to take a woman's complete agency away so she
can't be a scientist. Women's insecurity the end, right like
you had twenty minutes. Also, it's announced that Eric is

(01:04:27):
getting married, and then Ariel thinks that it's her that
he's getting She wasn't asked, no one, you know that
it was not discussed, but she's like, yep, it's me,
and she's stoked and she's so she's like, oh, I
guess he decided last night that he wants to marry me,

(01:04:48):
so legally I must a dog he was just going
to marry someone else because she could hit like Mariah
Carey whistletones. It's it's implied that it's a curse. But
that's also like trouble of implying that, like I mean,
and this is like goes back forever of like men
saying like oh she tricked me into doing like how

(01:05:11):
men you know, often in movies, especially movies of this
era will say like, oh, she tricked me into marrying her,
and I didn't actually want to marry her, but she
tricked And that is literally what we see happen of
he is put under a spell and then gets married.
It's just you know, another way men can offload regret
onto women. Yeah, like the like a queer coded character, Uh,

(01:05:38):
we've already been conditioned to hate also tricked a man
into marrying her when she was bad. It's like it's
just bad. Yeah. I don't know if this is worth
talking about, but this movie presents the idea that Ariel
needs to be under constant supervision because she's like a
rascally and Sebastian says, someone should now that girls fins

(01:06:03):
to the floor. Yep. Like when I was a teenager,
my parents were way more strict with me than with
my brother because there's like, yeah, it's the idea that like, oh,
boys they're allowed to go out and like you know,
make mistakes, misbehave because like boys will be boys dump off.
The girls have to be you know, well behaved. And

(01:06:27):
I feel like this is an example that perpetuates that, yeah,
girl doesn't have like there's no matriarch figure that is
positive like a mom. It's just like back to King
Chrain and just being by himself, like me and all
these daughters. Where there's that too, where he's like, I
don't know what to do with my daughters, so I
have to break all of her things and watch her

(01:06:49):
all the time, right, Like the his solution to not
knowing how to parent someone is to just oppress them
and make sure that they don't stray outside the norm
at all, because he's like, well, I don't know how
to deal with anything but this one thing I know.
So if you don't do that, you're canceling. It would
be a really good scene if Erirol would be able
to talk to her sisters and be like, jeez, Dad's
kind of a dick, right right, because I'm like, are

(01:07:12):
they just cool with him? Like I mean, I mean
that transitions really well into the whole like lack of
matriarch discussion and like the way Disney treats mothers and
motherhood in this very bizarre way up until very recently
and then still sometimes not well. But this is an
example of a movie that most of the Renaissance movies

(01:07:32):
subscribe to this exact because all the Renaissance movies aren't
the same where it's like a single father, the mother
is dead and not addressed. We don't know what happened,
where there's no and there's no matriarch figure in her life.
The same for Jasmine, the same for Bell, the same
for pocahonas I believe as well, there it Mulan has

(01:07:54):
a mom, yeah, but she doesn't get to do much.
And Grandma, Yeah, Mulan's grandma was like incredible, but I
can't can Horny Grandma horn and Grandma Horny, Grandma Lashtag
Horney and Grandma, which is a trope, but I don't
always hate it, but this one lacks a maternal figure
at all. But in other and earlier iterations of like

(01:08:18):
the previous generation of Disney princesses had maternal figures and
they were evil, where Snow White and Cinderella have evil stepmothers,
and the implication there always tends to be of like,
if you are uh mother who is not a biological mother,
you cannot love a child as purely as a biological

(01:08:41):
mother could, which is of course fucking ridiculous. But it's
just so insidious that from like conception, from like the
Jomp that we were able to look at anything and
understand in any sort of like cultural way, Like we're
just taught from the start from these movies that we
have to hate other women. Like that's all these men
want to do, and that's why they want to write

(01:09:01):
these movies where it's like we're gonna make all of
these insidious plot points that you will never have a
girl gang ever, he'll never be a girl boss. Yeah,
And there's I mean, and the like the solution to
defeating a woman is always a man, and like having
a man in your life to help you defeat the
only other woman you've met, which is just it's it's horrible,

(01:09:24):
it's horrible. There's yeah. And then if we're talking about
King Triton, I mean, he's the worst Disney father to me,
because you know, Maurice Bell's dad, he's a shitty inventor, right,
so he's like incompetent, but like so are many fathers, right, Uh,
Triton is genuinely a bad person. I mean, we know

(01:09:48):
he's a bad person. He destroys her ship, he totally
limits everything she can do, but he's also made out
to look sympathetic and by the end, we get that
moment where she's like, I love you, daddy, and she's not.
You know, we don't get to see that conflict play
out where there's this huge conflict between them. He destroys
everything she owns, she's devastated. She rebels against him by

(01:10:09):
selling her body to Ursula, and then it's chill. It's
chill later on. And the fact that you know, we
have we're coming off of this whole history of evil
stepmothers going into this movie and we see a father
act like an evil stepmother would, but then we're supposed
to be like, oh, but he's trying his best. He

(01:10:30):
has abs, they're like pancake nipples, doesn't get his daughter,
So it's okay that abusive selling body. And now there's
kind of like an anti sex work element to this too,
where it's like, I feel like they really give her
this like evil like I own a brothel vibe as well,
where she like owns all of these people. But it's

(01:10:52):
like Trieden's a king. He owns people too. Yeah, And
you know, and we don't get to really see him
do anything. They're input on a little show for his
daughter's who I'm assuming are unpaid for that game. Hey, artists. Also,
Triton does not check in with Arial to see if

(01:11:13):
she wants to be turned back into a human. He
just does it, like what if she didn't like being
a human, Like what if she's three days she's like, no,
I actually I'm gonna go back, like she went on
like human rum Springer. Basically, I was like, no, I
do want to return to my people community. And then
he was just like, oh, she's looking at a human,
so better turn her back into one. Like and then

(01:11:35):
the fact that she can only become a human, why
is he the only person who has that power and ability?
We saw Ursula has the ingredients. It can clearly be
done without your fucking penis stick. They carries around like
it can clearly be done, and she's smart enough we're
led to believe to be able to make it happen herself,
but she just never like siblings they have. I feel

(01:11:59):
like I've read Lord to that fire powers, right, I mean,
they're the only two people who can do jack ship.
Are they like twins? I don't know, I don't know.
I mean I wish we just knew more about Ursula's
background at all. We just don't know anything about totally
because that would make sense, Like why are they that

(01:12:21):
both people who are able to do all this like
wacky incredible powerful magic. So one's good and one's bad.
But it's the same thing. But like when when the
woman does it, it's actually bad. They do they literally
do the same spell, but but when Tritton does it,
it's actually good. And I wanted to just cover your
little little context stuff really quick. Where this is one

(01:12:43):
of the many Disney movies that's adapted from very old
folk tale by Holms Christian Anderson ever heard of him?
And uh, the adaptation of this, I mean this is
like fairly common knowledge. But the way the Little Mermaid
ends in the story is that she turns, you know,
she realizes that she is never going to be a

(01:13:03):
part of the human world in a meaningful way because
she is a mermaid. And she turns into cea foam
and dies. Uh so she turns into a big pyla
come she foams okay, also does foamy and then she died. Also,
I like really quick backtracking big pre foam is that
like this the scene or ursula becomes massive, she has

(01:13:26):
like does a giant sea queef when everything just turns
like blow she sludge underneath her, and I'm like, that's
supposed to be bad. She anchored herself and it's incredible. Um.
So the Hans Christian Anderson story ends very differently. Something
I learned when I was researching this episode is that

(01:13:49):
there is a lot of queer coding in Hans Christian
Andersen stories that I wasn't aware of. Um Because at
the time of Hans Christian Anderson, being queer was illegal.
So he was a queer man, which was found in
many of his letters. He had affairs with men that
were expressed through letters, and there was a particular affair

(01:14:11):
he had with a higher class, a man of a
higher class than he was, who ended up having to
marry a woman of a higher class because hetero, etcetera.
And so this is a part of his personal history
and a lot of the interpretation around it is that
the little roommaid was this expression of Hans Christian Anderson
is Ariel um or who is Ariel in the movie? Uh,

(01:14:35):
The object of his affection is eric Um. And so see,
turning into c foam at the end is basically just
and queer relationships aren't allowed, so I have to turn
into foam emotionally, So there there is I know, shout,
we gotta all, you know, take a shot for Hans
tonight because he had it right, I mean. And and

(01:14:56):
it is interesting like reading about queer literate or of
like you have to really code in and metaphor on
metaphor on metaphor to be able to discuss an issue
like this at all, because if you just were queer,
he would not be allowed to be, you know, working
in any capacity. And so um, I don't know like

(01:15:17):
learning that really and I don't think that that of
reading of it is taken into account in the Disney
adaptation at all, but I did. I did find it
to be like an interesting example of how queer artists
had to express themselves at this time in order to
express literally anything. Yeah, that's really interesting context shout shouts

(01:15:38):
out to this biopic. Ya, this is the one. I
don't know, there is good what's it called? Well, I
hope it's not Christians Christian. Christian sounds like another guy
who would blackout at a party all the time. I

(01:15:59):
feel like journey um. But yeah, yeah, so it's it's
interesting that there are so many are not so many,
I guess too. Uh, queer artists. Uh there where you
know Hans Christnaars and Reds the original story and then
it's adapted with all this incredible music by Howard Ashman,

(01:16:19):
but it's still you know, ends up being an incredibly oppressive,
heteronormative piece that uh you know has been decimating the
lives of children for going on thirty years. Indeed, tes incredible.
Does anyone have any other final thoughts? Let me check
my note here. Note talked about the Sea Queef. So

(01:16:45):
I just wish that this story what could have been
written with like Ariela is like a riot girl. That's
like what I because like we're weren't watching the We're
near Olympia where that I just feel like they have
that so close where it's like such a cool story
to talk about being sixteen and like hating everything and
wanting to swim to the surface and like pick up
a cool rock you found near a train track and

(01:17:08):
added your collection and like see if it's a crystal
maybe who knows. But instead they had to make it patriarchy.
I just like want there to be retribution for Ariel
and like have her sing in a band called like
clitteral Attack or something. Click yeah, everything has to be seen.

(01:17:29):
Were like c microphone. When she sat in her sea
chair and ate sea food. She had sea bugles for
a sea snack. I just wanted to say that there
is a line that Scuttle says, um, look with the
catfish dragged in, and I just want to say that

(01:17:53):
cat fish have zero nipples, and that's at fish fact
with Caitlin Um. I would like to say that Alfred
Molina could have played any part in this movie because

(01:18:17):
he's a versatile character actor who we know and love.
You know, my close friend at this point, Uh, Alfred Realina,
he has laid eyes on my face, I would say,
and I'm just I'm just channeling him, my close friend.
I would say that he received the script for this

(01:18:37):
movie and wrote back a long letter explaining that actually
this was a story by a queer author and that
he wasn't seeing any of those tones represented, and so
he refuses to participate, even for seventy five million dollars.
What a story. I think it's not a story, it's
the truth true. So out out to icon out. Let's

(01:19:04):
take some questions or comments from the crowd. If you
have something, come on up so that you can talk
into the mic. Does anyone have yeah, come on up, Hi,
what's your name? Hi? I just want to take a
second to cape for or to like record or cape
for Ursula as feminist icon because even as like a

(01:19:24):
straight little girl, I was like yes, because she like
is trying to topple the patriarchy. She runs her own business,
she has employees, she's obviously in charge of legal, like
she's drawn up which neither of the two heroes we
see signing a contract even look at. But we're like, yeah,
that's cool, Like she's trying to disclose everything to them,

(01:19:46):
and she's like, by the way, no one up top
is gonna want to hear you talk in arials like chill,
and then she just signs a thing. By the whole time,
Ursula is just like trying to run her business. She's
above board, she really is. That's right. She's done a
four one K Yeah. Yeah, no, we came up. We
have like a headcanon now that like because she's the witch.

(01:20:07):
We were like, oh, maybe she was like the c
medicine woman and maybe she was the Sea do La
and that's why Ariel's mom is dead and why tried
and kicked her out of the ocean. That's why she's
so mad that thank you I have that shirt. That's

(01:20:29):
a great point about there is a plot point in
this movie where it's just like, no, sorry, it's illegally
binding document. You're like, okay, weird moment to adhere to
the rules of the real world. Any any other questions
comments come up? Hi, My concept of Ursula is a

(01:20:50):
little bit more sexual. But I have two concepts or theories.
I feel like, what happens to the wedding guests, possibly
when Pursla becomes really huge, is like a Titanic reference
where everyone's actually drowning in the water while this whole
scene is happening, but we don't see that Titanic element

(01:21:12):
where none there were not enough lifeboats on that boat,
exactly unbelievable. The other theory that I have is that
King Triton actually killed Ariel's mom because Ursula was doing
some weird tentacle like sexual beautiful things with Arrow's moms.

(01:21:34):
So that's why Ursula turns him into a turret at
the end, you know, because she that she's trying to
take back what was her kingdom, which was a big,
you know, lesbian kingdom. Yeah. Wow, cannon cannon. Ursla is
just trying to topple the Dick Palace, the literal Dick

(01:21:56):
Palace and turned into a quefdom. Yeah, we had someone
else if you're yeah, so, I just want to say
Ursula has like several hundred lost souls trapped in her cave.
And like, I think this is just further evidence that
Trying is a terrible ruler, because I feel like there's
not that many people in the sea. Like if if

(01:22:20):
like half the people in this room disappear and all
of a sudden, I feel like I would look around
and be like, oh, maybe some people left. But he's
just like this several people who I've never seen again
and who are so yeah. And he also seems to
know where she lives. Hi Larry turned now And clearly

(01:22:41):
they're like a lot of people dissatisfied with their lives
that are like taking drastic legal legal measures to like
try and find a better life. But they're just like no,
and King Traydon has like no feelings about any of
these people who have just left left his kingdom for
to try and better themselves. God Trying is liked is
turned to my all my daughter, Uh we we had

(01:23:04):
we had another another question up here. I just wanted
to say that, Um, there's not only a demonization of
queer coded characters, but of Octopi. True quick in defensive Octopi.
They are incredible carreactakers. When a female octopus gives birth,
she lays all of her eggs and then stays with them,
caring for them until she dies as a sacrifice. So

(01:23:28):
quick defense of Octopy. Thank you? Are you a woman
in stamp? Wow? Paternal icons brave. Yeah. To further talk
about Ursula, Um, this movie, this movie does pass the
loftist test. Yes, it does. Well. This woman in Charge

(01:23:52):
it does, thank god, honest woman in charge. She is
the baldest woman and she is truly in charge. Wow.
I think we have time for one more. If there's
one more. Um to your point that like Ursula and
Triton were like siblings. I googled it once the lights
came up. They're like confirmed siblings. It was like part

(01:24:14):
of the original screenplay was that they were siblings. And
you know her like little shell that she wears, that
was like her source of power, and Triton got the
trident and she got banished because like she was trying
to be too greedy because they got like two halves
of the kingdom. And so he was like, you're too
opinionated and you have too much power. Yeah, you get

(01:24:36):
to banish her then, like you're you're not better? Was
doing good signing contracts. She's a lawyer. Now, if that
person's points right, then Ursula was sleeping with trite with
a hit with her brother's wife. I mean, honestly, imagine

(01:24:59):
if you're like sister, who is a lawyer and smarter
than you, started hooking up with your wife, you'd be like,
oh my god, I also love thank you so much? Right,
was like, actually, they're all I love. Everyone's unhinged. Yeah,

(01:25:21):
that's what I do. Though, like Ursula, she probably didn't
want more power than him or and like she wasn't
being greedy, she just wanted equal power. And he's like
you you're banished, right, but he shouldn't be in theory,
if they have equal power, why would he be able
to manage her to to like Vagina k patriarchy. And
also it looks like Ursula's like area is the same

(01:25:45):
size as the kingdom, where as you pointed out, like
fourteen people, she's storing a lot of souls he's in
charge of like a private school, second grade class. She
shouldn't Marie condo her soul storage. Should we decide if
it passes the Bechtel test? No, no, you know, but

(01:26:08):
you sure right, because even the few conversations are like
exchanges between Ariel and Ursula that technically may pass because
a man's name isn't mentioned, because there's like there's a
line where like Ursua is like, the only thing is
to become a human yourself, and then she's like, can
you do that? But the context is all about a

(01:26:31):
man and changing ariels whole self to be with a man.
The one exchange I found that may pass is bad.
It's towards the very end where Ursula is about to
do the death quiff and Ariel says, you monster, and
Ursula says, don't mess with me, you little brat. So so,

(01:26:58):
you know, an iconic change, that was the one maybe
I was able to find interesting. That's an excerpt with
me talking to my mom in high school. You monster,
I feel like because Ursula's whole goal is to overthrow
and steal the power of Triton, which she rightfully like

(01:27:22):
that was She's just trying to topple the patriarchy. So yeah,
and then and then Eric stabbed her poor Ursula. Yeah,
I would. I'm okay with saying that's a pass that
I think that that is somehow a pass because she
is kind of It's still contextually about a man, but
it's about overthrowing a man. So please disregard everything we've

(01:27:46):
just said. The Bechtel test is a perfect metric and
it passes to feminist text. Shall we give him give
it nipples? Yeah, let's on our nipple scale zero to
five nipples. Based on its portrayal of women, I'm gonna
go with a half nipple. I think more of an Ariola.

(01:28:14):
It is definitely a king Triton pancake Ariola. Yeah. I
mean between any like semblance of agency and like sense
of adventure that Ariel is given is immediately taken away
from her. The whole story is about her sacrificing, you know,
herself and everything about herself to be with a man.

(01:28:38):
All of the character design that is damaging, all of
the queer coding that's damaging everything about it is not good.
But I have to give it a half nipple for
the song, Poor Unfortunate Souls. So that's that. Uh but yeah,
so half nipple will go to Ursula. Yeah, I'll give

(01:28:58):
it a half nipple as well. And just to add
to that, it is like frustrating to uh see uh
female character in spite of all the like negative physical
things that are happening in the character design and all that,
but to have a female characters set up with a
personality with an interest that isn't a heterosexual relationship and

(01:29:22):
like setting up here's gonna be a cool character that
we can root for and then literally remove all of
it and then to a point and when you see it,
when you're young enough, you don't even realize that that's
what's happening. Um. So that made me sad. Half nipple
because Ursula and I'm giving it to Flats, Um sure,

(01:29:43):
because I don't think eels have nipples and I would
like to give them a shot. Maybe the person who
knows a lot about octopuses, do eels have nipples? Confirmed? Um? Yeah? Same?
Like half to full to one nipple. I think it's
like the only to me cool thing about this movie
is that Ursula is so badass, and I think it's

(01:30:06):
really cool twenty nineteen to have this like resurgence of
queers and allies alike who understand like how radical she is,
like even within how unfortunately she was portrayed in this movie.
But to now have this like icon of like fat
Dike who like is a lawyer and someone has now

(01:30:27):
pointed out to us like anachemist, like and like pays
her own bills, like pays the rent, like mortgage, like
on top of it, like good credit score, like to
just have her to exist in all of our cannons
and all of our cultural understandings of Disney. To me,
it's like that gives it the one. But that's because

(01:30:48):
of us, not because of them, Like we gave her that. Yeah,
what would you like to give your nipple too? Oh
all right, I got carried away. Um it sounded like
a threat the way I'm gonna give my one nipple
to the woman who give aerial to bath. Oh. Yes,

(01:31:09):
another character who we get to sort of meat, but
we never get to get to know her as well
as literally any man we made at any point in
the story. But she seems nurturing. I don't know she
does bathe a nude stranger. I don't know what the
customs in this country a sure go sure, Well that's

(01:31:31):
the damn show. Get up yourselves, got up for Clara, Clara?
Where can people follow you? What would you like to plug? Um?
You can follow me on Instagram at real Chris Angel.
I'm trying to get crossover fans and that's c R

(01:31:52):
I S. S. Angel Real Chris Angel. Please follow me.
He's furious awesome. Thank you again for coming. Good night.
So that was the episode. It was so so so
much fun. Thank you to everyone who was there. It

(01:32:13):
was packed shell, Yes, so much fun. Just a couple
quick notes. Uh, we did the like Q and A
at the end, little you know, audience questions and comments
so much. Yeah, but the audio quality some of the
people they couldn't make it up to the stage to
talk into the mic. So there were a couple of
people whose questions comments we had to cut because just

(01:32:33):
the audio didn't pick up on the recording. Our apologies
go out to you if you had your comment cut.
One of them to our houses kill us. So one
was defending Scuttle. I was there for it. I was
I was fully there for yes, we we we we
were sorry. We came down so hard on Scuttle. Shouts, shouts,

(01:32:54):
out to the scuttle sand. We were put in our place,
Yes indeed. And then another one was a mother who
said she recently watched the movie with her young daughter
and just was horrified at the messages that the movie
was sending and how her daughter was struggling to understand
what was wrong with the movie because all of this
like patriarchal ideas being implanted into the minds of like

(01:33:17):
and yeah, yeah, starting with they get the kids young
with the patriarchy, but shouts out to Seattle mom, who
was doing the work getting out in front of it,
crushing the patriarchy in advance. Yes, indeed. And then the
last really quick thing was that, Um, I was talking

(01:33:38):
to Joan Ford, a friend of the cast. Are on
our Scream episodes, so if you haven't listened, and go
back and listen, And I told her that we had
recorded a Little Mermaid episode and she asked if we
had talked about the interpretation of the movie as a
trans narrative at all, right, and there's so there are
so many fascinating different interpretations of a movie. Um and yes, yes,

(01:34:02):
I said, I said I didn't. I didn't think we did.
But would you mind sharing your thoughts, and she said,
I'll just go ahead and read it here. Um as
I've transitioned, I've come to think of Ariel as sort
of a trans icon. The parallels are pretty clear. She
was born into one body, but feels like she belongs
in another and does the work to make that transformation happen. Sure,

(01:34:23):
she makes some bad choices along the way, but the
road to realizing your true self is usually a rocky one,
especially if you have a family that doesn't accept you
and you're forced to figure out stuff on your own.
In parentheses, writing this, I'm realizing we should be celebrating
Sebastian and Flounder as Cinema's original trans allies. Sebastian takes
a little longer to get on board, but he really

(01:34:44):
redeems himself during Kiss the Girl. Anyways, That's why I
take issue with the aerial changes herself to be with
a man narrative that critics tend to impose on the movie.
Ariel wants to be human from moment one. She sings
part of your World her trans anthem, long before she
ever sets eyes on Prince Eric. Eric maybe the catalyst

(01:35:04):
that finally gets her to take action and go see Ursula,
But that decision is all rioted in her long held
conviction that she wants to be where the people are.
Whether or not Eric is worthy of her, it is
kind of beside the point to me, as I think
it's pretty common for kids to latch on to new
people when they're going through this kind of big self realization.
Maybe they're going to be together forever. Maybe she moves

(01:35:25):
on when she realizes the world is huge and there
are so many more humans out of the sea. The
important thing is that he was there, offering her that
possibility of a new and different life when she needed it. Uh.
And then again in parentheses, she says, by the way,
I know him being kind of generous about Ariel's options
as a woman in the eighteen hundreds. But whatever, it's
a fantasy. If a Mermaikan girl legs, then I think

(01:35:45):
it's also fair to think she can have an amicable divorce. Also,
anyone who thinks giving up your voice to a sea,
which is rough, should try getting hormone replacement therapy through
Kaiser Permanent If you don't know what Kiser permanente, as
it's like a healthier facility in California, She said, they

(01:36:06):
make you jump through so many hoops. I wish I
knew a c which who could have cut me that
straightforward of a deal. So that's what John said. So
I thought that was a really um awesome interpretation of
the movie. Uh. And then I was just chatting with
her a little bit after that, and we agreed that
that was more than likely not any of the intentions

(01:36:27):
of the filmmakers to try to create this like allegorical transnarative,
but that's what fantasies are for, and that's why we
got to discuss so many different interpretations of it in
the episode as well. I'm so glad that she let
us know because that tracks. Um, I don't know, I mean,
as as problematic as these um old fairy tales tend

(01:36:48):
to be, there are always a million different ways to
see yourself inside of them, and which is, you know,
probably why they're they're still around. I love that, Yeah, John,
John and everything. Yes, follow her. You can check her
out on Instagram at Joan Hayley Ford and read her
book as well. Yes, indeed. So yeah, that's just the

(01:37:11):
kind of the after the footnotes, No, oh my god,
to channel Miles Gray that we wanted to increase that
we wanted to include on this episode. And then also
just to say thanks again to our guest of the show,
Clara Pluton. We wanted to say thanks again to the

(01:37:32):
jewel Box Theater at the Rendezvous in Seattle for having us,
and thank you to everyone who came. It really was
such a fun um a couple of shows that we
did there and we will be back. I got that
was the show where someone brought me on Mike's hard
lemonade uh light lamp. Whoa wait, yeah, like, oh I

(01:37:52):
heard Mike's hard lemonade light and I thought of like
crystal light, like diet on powder, like a bud light
kind of thing. I wish they made it like cocaine
for him, but they do not yet. Um, yes it was.
It was an illuminated sign type yeah that shows with
me always This specific show looms above. And then also

(01:38:13):
thanks again to our road dog and audio engineer Sammy Junio,
friend of the cast, She's the Man episode. Go back
and listen to it, uh and I believe you know.
Thank you for listening. Check us out on all the
normal places becktel cast dot com, on Twitter and Instagram
at back dol cast. Just another reminder to contribute to

(01:38:35):
our Black Girl's Code fundraiser by buying our Rise of
the Matriarchy t shirt at t public dot com slash
the beck Doel cast and that's where all of our
designs are for all of our merch But yeah, prioritize
the Rise of the Matriarchy one for now, um el
or else, and then of course um our our Matreon
to bonus episodes every month for five dollars, including the

(01:38:58):
entire backlog of all the bonus episodes. So you're on
like forty bonus episodes. Honey, hon you're missing out if
you're not a matron, Yeah, so and join, join up
and be part of the world of the Matreon. And
if you're not, you're going to be a poor, unfortunate soul.
And then go out there and eat some lepoissant unless

(01:39:21):
you're you know, you don't eatisha, then go out and
eat something. I'm lave vegetabile la broccoli. Go with some broccoli.
This has descended into chaos. See you later by

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