The Matrix (1999) with Emily VanDerWerff

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bell cast, the questions asked if movies have
women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and
husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in
best start changing it with the bec Del cast. Jamie, Hi, Caitlin. Hi, sorry,
it's not Caitlin, it's morpheoush. I just want to tell

(00:23):
you that you're the one meet you, but I'm so
sexy and regular. Well that's just that you're too sexy
to be regular. Oh my god. Therefore you are the
one that is how movies work, isn't it. Wow? Well, um, okay,
I I accept. I accept this call to adventure, except

(00:46):
that you're gonna have to get kidnapped for reasons that
are a little confusing to me, and the stakes are
going to continue to rise from there. Sure sure, sure,
Oh wait, I have one more condition. Yes, yes, I
need to get a little kiss at the end. Okay. Well,
hey Jamie, it's it's a trinity now, Hi. Hi, And
I just wanted to tell you that the oracle told

(01:07):
me that I would fall in love with somebody, and
that somebody would be the one that's me and it's
and I'm in love with you further confirming that you're
the one. So can I have a little kiss? Yeah?
Here you go. Well, thank you. But that was a
very smooth intro. I think my intro is going to
be very somber because I feel, well, let's introduce the

(01:28):
show and then I have to make an apology and
then I think we can get the episode started. Sure,
for sure, I have a serious apology to make. So Hi,
it's me Caitlin Durante. It's me Jamie loftus little tail
between my legs. And this is the Pectel Cast. It
is our show where we examine film through an intersectional

(01:49):
feminist lens, using the Bectel Tests simply as a jumping
off point, which of course is a media metric created
by queer cartoonist Alice in Bectel, sometimes called the Bectel
Wallace Test. Uh. There are many variations on the test.
This is the one that we are currently using, where
two people of any marginalized gender must have names, they

(02:11):
must speak to each other, and that conversation has to
be about something other than a man. Ideally it's a
meaningful conversation that is like narratively relevant. Yes, okay, Uh,
do you mind if I just please, you've got the floor.
I have a prepared statement really quickly. Okay, hello listeners,

(02:32):
this is Jamie Loftus. You might remember that almost exactly
five years ago to the day, we released an episode
about the movie The Matrix on this very podcast. The
guest was comedian Matt donnaher lovely man, who we still
have a friendship with. However, if you try to listen
to this episode today, you will not be able to

(02:54):
find it. And that is because as of December twenty
I didn't actually watched The Matrix before we recorded the episode.
I was very busy that week. It was the holidays,
and I was drunk at the recording off of Mike's
Hard Lemonade. Off of Mike's Hard Lemonade, as was my

(03:14):
custom at the time. I would learned years later, that's
actually not adorable to do. Um. So I just wanted
to uh apol. I've been receiving criticism for never having
watched The Matrix when I was twenty three. For years now.
It's been it's something that's uh, you know, a common
criticism has been brought up to me at shows. It's

(03:36):
been tweeted at me repeatedly. It's on our Wikipedia page
that I've never seen the Matrix. Um it took five years,
but work course correcting. I'm a new person. I've been
uh living, laughing, loving and learning and I really liked
The Matrix and I'm excited for today's episode. So sorry
one last time for not watching The Matrix five years ago.

(03:58):
And if I could editor allies for just a second,
I think it's very weird how mad everyone Wasn't me.
We didn't make any money out the podcast. Then there's
people people were mad, some of them, but there are
I would say, just as many people who think it's
awesome that you didn't see it and still writ prepare

(04:19):
well it would be. You could be bad now because
now it's our job, but back then it was our hobby,
and um yeah I was. I don't know who knows.
It doesn't matter. We are doing the episode now and
we have a wonderful guest, so let's get her in here. Indeed,
she is the critic at large for Vox. She's the
co creator of the podcast art In. It's Emily Vanderworth. Hello, Hello,

(04:42):
it's so good to be here. And if you're wondering
who the skywriter was above your house, that said, please
watch the Matrix, Jamie. That was I learned how to
fly a plane just for that. You flew the plane
in everything. Yes I did. It's the personal touch, it
really really is, and that her me extra deeply as
a result. Yeah, well, you're also leaving out that you

(05:05):
learned to fly the plane by just like having a
training software uploaded immediately into your brain floppy disc. They
plugged it into my brain and I was like, now
I can fly in nineteen twenties biplane. Cool. I'm so
excited for this episode, and we're so stuked that you're

(05:26):
here to talk about the movie with us. Emily. Um,
so this is this is our the So I guess
whenever we cover franchise, we're covering the first movie. This
episode will be released lining up with the new Matrix movie,
which I just I guess right at the top. I'm
curious if if y'all think it looks any good. I
can't tell. I can't tell. I think so. I think

(05:50):
it's going to be great. Yeah, Okay, I've just had
my ass handed to me. No I I am, but
I'm a Wachowski home homer. You know, I think they're great. Uh,
you know, they've made a couple of movies I don't love,
like I think the Third Matrix is their weakest film,
but I still watch it all the time, so you know,
it's I'm excited for it. I'm excited that it's very

(06:12):
colorful from the trailers. I'm excited for Keanu Reeves to
have a little rubber ducky on his head. Oh my gosh.
I well, because I've watched the trailer dozens and dozens
of times, mostly because I was like, well, first, I
think it's very fun and it's great, and I think
it makes the movie look great. I'm excited to see it.
But also I was trying to figure out a Halloween

(06:34):
costume for this year, and I was like, m, my
hair length is about the same hair length as Kanus
in the trailer. Maybe I'll dress up as Kanu like
from the New Matrix movie. But he doesn't have necessarily
a consistent look in the trailer. And also he like
doesn't necessarily look like Neo famously looks with all of

(06:57):
his like kind of has his like John Wick hair
a little bit. Yeah, right, and then he's just wearing
like scarves and like just regular clothes and like not
his at least in the trailer again, like you don't
see him with his like black trench coat and sunglasses
all that stuff. So I just kind of picked a
random look and replicated that there's like you see him

(07:18):
for like seventeen frames or something like that. And I
was just like, well, this is this is my costume
this year, so I will share that on our Instagram.
But um, it was a solid costume. It was good.
Thank you so much. So Emily, tell us what is
your relationship your history with the Matrix slash the whole franchise. Yeah,

(07:45):
I saw this movie in theaters when it came out,
but like very late, like after the buzz had kind
of died down, because it was it was huge for
a while, and I remember I was like very irritated
by the marketing because I was someone who cared about that.
At that time. It was like what is the Matrix? Was?
Like all the marketing was um. And so I saw

(08:05):
it several weeks after it opened with my then girlfriend,
and I remember it just it spoke to me in
a way I didn't entirely comprehend, but I just I
loved it. And then I watched it. You know, probably
dozens of times when it was on DVD, and I
saw it again a few years ago in the theater um.

(08:25):
I think it's it's one of the most perfect movies
ever made, like there's not really anything in it that
doesn't work. I kind of prefer the second one because
I am a weird woman who likes imperfect babies and
just like holding it up and being like, your head's
a little dented, but I still love you. I think.

(08:48):
I think the third one. I've seen this argument of
the third one, in the second one should be considered
one big movie, and in that case, the third one
is better, but it isn't isolated thing. I do think
it's The Witch House kis weakest movie, but like it
not bad. I enjoy watching it. But the second one,
I think is My Dented Little Baby. I really enjoyed
the second one as well. I would say I mildly

(09:10):
enjoyed it. I far prefer the first one. I agree
that it's a perfect movie, and I don't know what
it says about me that I like perfect things. You know,
like liking perfect things is fine, you know, it's just
you know, it's it's uh, you look at that dented
little baby. And you're like, no, get rid of that one,
throw that one away. I am not like that. So

(09:34):
so yeah, that's actually a huge flow. Let the baby
have a dead. Oh goodness, um, Jamie, what is your well?
You you did read your prepared statement. I just I
just give a really long winded I should have saved
it for here. I have never seen it. I lied
about it five years ago. Uh, and then I have
now seen it twice and I loved it. I really like.

(09:57):
I wish I hadn't been so glad formatively out watching
it as a bit because it is such a good
movie and I've really enjoyed. Um, I don't know, I
feel like but with some certain movies, you're like, I
don't really want to engage with the fan culture around
certain movies. But I've really enjoyed reading more about the
Matrix and learning more about it. And I liked the

(10:18):
sequel and I'm interested in what the new one is like.
And I skipped the third one because I didn't have
the stamina. But I yeah, the first Matrix movie, I
can say with the whole heart, I loved it. What
about you? I am a long, long, long time Matrix fan.
I saw the movie at a drive in movie theater

(10:39):
when it came out. I was like thirteen percent didn't
understand it all the first time I saw it, but
I think on subsequent viewings I did understand. I don't
know if it was because like I'm thirteen and I
don't under like, I don't like this is confusing, or
if it's just because I was like distracted and with
my friends. Anyway, I think I had it figured out

(11:02):
by the second watch, and I've seen it like probably
fifty times since then. I watched this movie multiple times
a year. I love it. I think it's perfect, and
it holds up so surprisingly well for a movie from
because we've covered a lot of movies from this podcast,
and I would say almost none of them hold up,

(11:24):
but The Matrix does very much does. Yes, I'm really
I mean, just one of the like hottest casts ever assembled.
Also just a gorgeous just just everyone is so incredibly
beautiful of this movie. Uh, that's my contribution to the
discourse today. I mean, honestly, I was going to make

(11:46):
a joke about Joe Pantoliano, but like he's never been hotter,
He's really hot. He joey pants is hot. His goatee.
Even fine, I'll take it. I like, you know, the
thing is with Joey Fans is goot. I like when
someone makes a strong choice, and that's what Jelley Fans
is doing with the goatee. I love that for him.

(12:09):
All right, Should I recap the story and we'll go
from there. Let's do it, and Emily jump in whenever.
During the recap, we're fast and loose. Here it's an
open forum, okay. So we open on some images of
some kind of computer code. Uh. Then we meet Trinity,

(12:30):
who's played by Carrie and Moss. Some cops have her surrounded.
Hugo Weaving in a suit. A K agent Smith is
also after her. There's a fight, they chase her. She
seems to be able to defy gravity during a lot
of this fighting and running away. She also takes control

(12:52):
of the cinematography for like just a couple of seconds.
So yeah, that is the opening scene is so good.
It it's just yeah, immediately the style and yeah, it's amazing.
I love it. Um. And then she escapes finally by
answering a pay phone and seemingly disappearing, and we use

(13:12):
the audience seeing this for the first time in or
Monday whatever earlier this week. We're like, what what is
going on? Oh my gosh. Then Agent Smith mentions an informant.
He's talking to his other agent friends. There are these
like white guys in suits. He mentions an informant and

(13:35):
also the next target, someone named Neo. Then we cut
to Kiana Reeves, who in this world goes by Thomas Anderson.
Someone has hacked into his computer and is sending him messages.
There's mention of the matrix. I love hearing Kiana Reeves
just read something off of the screen. It's very compelling

(13:58):
to me. It's very calming. I like it. Yeah, it's nice.
His performance in this movie is incredible. I love him
so much. Kianu is a national treasure. Okay, So the
person on his computer tells Kianu to follow the White Rabbit,
which ends up being a friend's tattoo, which leads him
to a club where he meets Trinity face to face.

(14:20):
She's like, I know that you're trying to figure out
what the matrix is. By the way, you're in danger
and you're being watched. And then the next day at work,
Kianu gets a cell phone delivered to him and then
immediately receives a call from Morpheus, who gives him instructions
on how to escape Agent Smith and the other agents

(14:41):
who are after him. But Kanu is unsuccessful and he
gets captured by the agents who want his help in
finding Morpheus, who they see as a terrorist. I liked
I liked that. Um. I felt like this movie could
have come out almost whenever. But there you think about

(15:01):
this movie. I felt like was like the office job sequence.
I was like, Oh, this is such a late nineties
like gen X, I hate my job. The man is
killing me. Like it feels like it was made just
Mike Judge just had some office space out takes, just
laying was like here you go. They just like color
corrected it green and they're like, and now it's these

(15:21):
are scenes from the Matrix. This is this is the
scene with with the bug in it, right, a little
bug that goes in yes belly button. UM. When I
saw this movie in nine, I saw it with my
my then girlfriend, who had enormous Reese Witherspoon energy, UM,
and she was so disgusted by this. She was just
horrified by it and like hiding her face. And I

(15:43):
was watching it like, yeah, this is just how life is, right,
somebody just traps you and puts a bug in you,
and then you have to just walk around with it
inside of you. And yeah, that was when I was like,
this is one of my favorite movies ever because it's
the only one that understands what it's like to have
a little bug crawling around inside you. To this day,
I cannot watch the bug either going into his belly

(16:03):
button or coming back out of it. I don't know.
I have like a weird of belly button thing where
I just so I loved watching it. I thought how interesting.
I thought it was interesting to watch. I'm stuck on
the phrase enormous Reese Witherspoon energy. That is, like you
said it as immediately I was like, I know exactly

(16:25):
what that means. Yes, yes, I I dated the girls
I wanted to be at that time, but yes. This
is the scene where Neo refuses to help the agents,
so they bug him and then release him, and then
Neo gets another call from Morpheus and Morpheus is like

(16:45):
you're the one, and he's like, what does that mean?
And then Trinity and a couple other people switch and
APOC pick Neo up. They debug him in the other
scene I can't watch um and then they take him
to meet more Pheus, who we see in the Flesh
for the first time. He's played by Laurence Fishburne. Morpheus
gives Neo the opportunity to choose between taking a blue

(17:09):
pill and a red pill. Now, the blue pill will
let Neo to continue on with his life as he's
been living in and forget all about Morpheus and the Matrix,
but the red pill will give him access to the truth. Right,
and nobody ever thought about that idea again, like that
never came. No one has ever, No one has used that.

(17:33):
That's fun, imature, nefarious reasons even a little bit. No, okay,
So Neo takes the red pill and then Morpheus shows
him what the Matrix is. Basically, the Matrix is a
computer simulation that most humans are plugged into so that

(17:53):
they don't know what's actually happening, which is that it's
two years in the future and the artificially intelligent machines
grow humans like crops and use them as batteries to
power They're like post apocalyptic machine world. So all the
humans are plugged into this simulation, which basically simulates reality

(18:16):
or some version of reality and that's what the matrix is.
So Morpheus and his crew unplugged Neo from the matrix.
So we see him in this like pod thing that's
full of who I love when he's in the goo.
I'm a simple person, I like when he's in the give.
This is another scene where I was like, well, this
is just what life is like. Somebody unplugs you and

(18:37):
wake up in a pile of go Like that didn't
even registered for me. A how matter of factly that
is presented where it's like, well, now he's in goo,
and then cut to the next scene he's out of
the goo. Now, yeah, it is what it is, and yeah,
so they take him out of the goo and they
bring him aboard Morpheusis ship, the Nubuchadnezzer. We meet the
rest of the crew, which is Cipher, that's Joey Pants,

(19:01):
Joe Pantaliano, Mouse, Tank, and Dozer, who have all either
been unplugged from the matrix or, in the case of
Tank and Dozer, they were born in a human society
called Zion and we're never plugged in to begin with.
So Neo learns all this stuff and has difficulty accepting

(19:22):
the whole situation at first, but then he comes to
accept it and starts learning more about the matrix, how
to manipulate the laws of physics inside of it, how
to do kung fu, he learns how to jump really far,
things like that, and then Morpheus also explains that the
agents like Agent Smith a K. Hugo Weaving, are the

(19:45):
sentient programs that can kind of move throughout the matrix,
and they're basically designed to like keep order, and they
are the main antagonistic force against the people like Morpheus
and his crew while they're inside the matrix. Right. Morpheus
also tells Neo about a prophecy that the oracle made

(20:09):
about the one. Basically, someone would be able to destroy
the matrix and the war against the machines and bring
freedom to the humans, and as it's already been suggested,
Morpheus believes Neo to be the one. Yeah, that's a
really short walk. You just have to move, oh in

(20:29):
front of an andy, Like, you don't have to do
that much work. I feel like it shouldn't have taken
them that long, Right, it's true, it's written in the stars.
I do appreciate that Neo is an anagram for one,
not unlike my name. Caitlin Durante is an anagram for
for such things as Latin dancer, U t I, nine tips, Dracula,

(20:54):
and my favorite, Lauren D Titanic, Lauren D. I got
to look this up. I'm looking myself up there. They
haven't done it in a while. Wait, and I think
I always get cranky when anagrams come up, because all
mines suck. But you have every all of the vowels
in your dose your middle name. No, okay, yeah, mine, don't.

(21:14):
I think that's cheating, that's yeah. But yeah, let let
me let me know if either of you discover any
impressive anagrams of your name. In the meantime, we learned
that Cipher is a trader. He's the informant who has
been working with the agents and who is going to

(21:38):
sell out Morpheus because the agents want the access codes
to the main frame of that human city Zion to
destroy the human population there. After getting a lot of
Joey Pants's facial hair, I'm like, well, I don't know
what I expected in regards to whether he was going
to be a hero or a villain, Like, okay, right,

(21:58):
he just looks like a like a like a sad
dad who came home from his office job, and it's like,
my office job is fighting the machines, and I just
want to join the machine. The machines have such good
meats at their machine restaurants. He's like, I actually get
along with the machine software guys much better, So I'm
just gonna hang out with them. I think about this

(22:18):
all the time. If the Matrix is real and we
are all plugged into a simulation. But then we learned
about how it is actually a prison for our minds
if given the opportunity to be freed from it. But
then to live a life that seems very dangerous, and
like the quality of living doesn't seem that great, seems
cold and dark, and you have to eat like goog

(22:41):
all the time. Like I'm like, I don't know what
I want to live in the Matrix. I did think
it was interesting that the like I mean, the world
is so carefully built out, and I like, we get
all these like little questions that I would have as
a viewer that they just like answer in text of like,
you know, it's dangerous to tell people about the matrix
when there a certain age, which was something that I

(23:02):
thought of it like, oh yeah, that's like, if your
brain is fully formed, do you want to learn that
everything you've ever known as a lie? Probably not. Probably not.
You probably couldn't handle it. And and that's also why
I like Mouse so much. I also like Mouse because
he kind of looks like We'll Poulter. But also I
also like us because he's like kind I mean, he's

(23:23):
outside of the matrix, buties like the food sucks here
and I want to have sex, and I'm like, yeah,
i'd feel the same way. I designed a lady computer
program for me to have sex with and that's cool,
little rascal, and then he like explodes to death. I
know we're not bringing the sequels in, really, but the
second movie suggests everyone in Zion just just fo Yeah,

(23:47):
so maybe it was more of a personal issue for Mouse.
Is he just happened to not be fucking poor Mouse?
But I just that scene where he turns to Neo
and he's just like, this food is bad. I'm horny,
Like I love this classic Mouse. Okay, So then Morpheus

(24:09):
takes Neo into the Matrix to see the Oracle to
hopefully confirm that Neo is in fact the one, but
the Oracle tells Neo that he actually isn't the one,
and it's implied that it's because he does not yet
believe that he's the one. On their way back out

(24:30):
of the matrix Um, where they like have to answer
phones in specific places to get safely disconnected, agents ambush
Neo Morpheus, Trinity and the rest of the crew and
they kidnapped Morpheus. So Neo Trinity and everyone else tries
to get back, but Cipher is sabotaging them and he

(24:51):
kills Apoc and Switch. And also this is shortly before
this mouse gets shot by the agents and Sarah ammoniously
moved because he was too horny to live that mouse
he had to go. Makes me sad anytime anyone. I mean,
they really do it an amazing job of building out
the side characters that I'm like, oh, I think I've

(25:13):
maybe heard this character speak three or four lines of dialogue,
but I'm still absolutely gutted when they're killed totally. So
much of it is the is the visuals, Like they're
such distinct looking characters, they don't blend into each other,
especially for it's it's a somewhat diverse cast, so you
have like a really strong feeling for who everybody is,

(25:36):
even if you've only heard them talk two or three times,
and mostly they just talked about how they were horny, right, yeah, Okay.
So meanwhile, Agent Smith is trying to break Morpheus to
get access to these codes to Zion. They're basically like
trying to hack his brain. And since keeping Zion safe

(25:57):
is the most important thing that any of these characters
can do, Neo, Trinity, and Tank consider pulling the plug
on Morpheus so he doesn't give up these mainframe codes
to Zion. But then Neo is like, no, there's got
to be another way, so he and Trinity go back
into the Matrix to try to save Morpheus and fight

(26:18):
the agents, and then what follows is a couple fight
sequences where Neo is dodging bullets, Trinity is flying a helicopter.
They managed to save Morpheus, so you can picture what
it looks like. You've all seen because you've seen it
referred to in every piece of media since then. Then

(26:38):
Neo gets stuck in the Matrix and has to face
off one on one with Agent Smith. They fight, and
then Agent Smith gets the upper hand and shoots Neo
a bunch of times and he dies, but Trinity who
is back in the real world on Morpheus's ship. It's like, Neo,

(26:59):
you can't be dead because the oracle told me I
would fall in love with the one, and I love you,
so you're the one, and that means that you can't
be dead, and that brings Neo back to life. This
is so often written off as like, you know, the obligatory,
the woman falls in love with the male love interest,
and I like, textually that's true, but it's such a

(27:21):
fucking lesbian moment. It's so much. It's just so much like, oh,
I know, I've known you for a couple of days,
but I'm pretty sure we're going to get married, and like,
you know, nine months from now they're going to break up,
but right now, yes, absolutely, it's true love. I mean
I never really questioned it. I always bought it. I
was just like, Yep, she loves him, and I mean,

(27:43):
who wouldn't love Keanu Reeves when he shows up and
it is all hot and amazing. Neo and Trinity are
just two girls who met at a at a party
at Barnard and just like hit it off, spent the
next week together, and now they've been together for twenties.
Thing years, similar to how Rose and Jack of Titanic

(28:06):
Fame of the Titanic of the Titanic famously historically is
another iconic lesbian romance. Absolutely about Actually this is a
total tangent. But the director of Portrait of a Lady
am Fire, Sleen Shama. If I didn't interview with her
box if you find it, she talks about how she
modeled her movie on Titanic. Yeah, yeah, wait reference we

(28:28):
talked on that episode on Portrait of the Medium Fire. Awesome.
I like when I I just love when like quote
unquote art filmmakers are like, no, of course I watch
fucking Titanic, Like I don't be ridiculous. Come on. So anyway,
so Trinity professing her love to an unconscious Neo brings

(28:50):
Neo back to life, and so then in the Matrix,
he is able to finally defeat Agent Smith and proves
that he is the one. And then the movie ends
with Neo talking to someone on a pay phone. It
seems to be that he's like talking to the Matrix itself.

(29:11):
He hangs up the phone, Rage against the Machine starts
playing and flies away. I didn't know that the movie
ended on Rage against the Machine and anytime I was
watching it with Caitlin, I was like, anytime Rage Against
the Machine comes on, I'm instantly like in the backseat
of my uncle's car, Like it's just instantaneous. We're late

(29:31):
to school, he's mad, he's singing the lyrics. We're fucked.
I love it. I love that. I love that ending.
It is also the most about the movie. It is. Yeah,
it is literally just like what if we had what
if we had a nine in this movie? That and

(29:51):
the scene where Neo has like followed the white Rabbit
tattoo lady to the club and Rob Zombie is playing
those are the two like, Yes, this movie is extremely
from and it's it's obviously like all the tech, the
cell phones and stuff is very the Nokia phone that
comes out down. Yeah, every time Nokia got a shout out,

(30:13):
I was like, good for them, Good for them. They
they don't know that they're living in the best year
that they're ever going to have right now, Let's just
let them have it. I feel like Matrix four should
bring Nokia back, like they should just yeah they If
anything could it would be the fourth Matrix movie. It
will completely revitalize the Nokia brand. One of my great

(30:35):
dreams is to interview Lana Wachowski. She's famously pressed, shot,
it's never going to happen, But I would just ask
her about Nokia. I'd just be like, Heylan, Like, that's
one of the things I hit Lana. I want to
know how you feel about Nokia. Do you want to
bring back the brand? Like? Are you concerned about their
their market share? You know? I think we I think
we have a lot in company. Um let's take a

(30:59):
quick break and then we will come right back to
discuss and we're back, all right, Where shall we begin, friends,
where do you want to start? Well? Um, so, in
in recent years, kind of in lieu of both which

(31:22):
Houseki is coming out as trans women. The Matrix, especially
the first movie has widely been interpreted as a trans allegory,
which Emily you have written about, and I was just
wondering if you could speak to that more, speak to
your interpretation of the film as a trans metaphor. We'll
be linking to your essay. You have no pressure to

(31:45):
completely reiterate your essay, but actually I'm just going to
pull it up and read it right. Yeah, that would
actually be amazing. I mean, the basic idea of it
is that if you were trans or even just like
gender nonconforming, gender curious, whatever, going online was like this
revolutionary new way to explore like who's your real self,

(32:09):
who's the person that you actually want to be? And
and for many many, many many years, it's been rumored
that the Witch Howskis wanted switch within the film to
be a woman within the matrix and a man within reality,
and Warner Brothers was like, no, and Kiana Reeves, I
think actually like just confirmed that that's true, this sort
of long standing rumor. When when I wrote my piece,

(32:32):
I had like tracked it down to a couple of
people where I was like, Okay, I feel like it's
probably true, but like I could never verified and like
Kianu now has confirmed it. Thank you Kiana for yeah, um,
but yeah it is. It is a movie about, you know,
living a dual life. It is a movie about feeling

(32:52):
like one person well you know, you're perceived as another.
And it is very much driven by um is very
much driven by these ideas of duality, and like there
are just like little things like when Neo finds Trinity
in the club, he says something like I wasn't expecting
you to be a woman, and she says most guys
don't um. And at the end, when Agent Smith is

(33:15):
you know, beating up Neo, he continues to call Neo
Mr Anderson, and Neo says, my name is Neo. It's
you know, pretty classic dead naming allegory. And of course
there's the famous thing of like, at the time the
movie was made out, the pills that contained estrogen were read,
so taking the red pill was estrogen or whatever. I think.
And I say this as like the person that brought

(33:37):
a lot of this into the mainstream by writing that essay.
I think it is a little overstated that Wachowski is
like Lily Wachowski has given an interview where she was like,
I was not unconsciously thinking about that at the time.
Now I see how it filtered in. But like creating
this idea that like everything and it is an intentional allegory,
I think kind of cheapens the movie and also cheapens

(33:59):
trans storytelling in a lot of ways. But the thing
that I think is is most trans about it is
that the second that Neo learns that this one thing
about his life is a lie, he becomes a communist.
So um he he's just like I'm going to tear
down modern society and blah blah blah blah blah. Like
it is the thing I think gets lost a little

(34:20):
bit and discussions of this film is how incredibly incredibly
leftist it is, especially for and the sequels go even
further in that regard. But yeah, like I think it
is inescapable that there is a huge trans allegory read
of this film. I'm just always very cautious of Like,
it's not the only read of this movie that is valid.
Just because two trans women made it doesn't mean the

(34:42):
only way you can interpret it is as a trans allegory.
That's just one of many ratings that sits alongside others,
and like that that's not me saying that to you.
That's me saying that to the internet, which is now,
which is now, Like if you go on Twitter, they're like,
here's this is a this is a thing. All trans
people know is if you go on Twitter and you say,
did you know the Matrix was a trans allegory made

(35:03):
by two trans women and here's the reasons, you will
get three thousand retweets in like an hour. Becausist people,
This blows their fucking minds. They're just like, what the
matrix I've seen that movie? Am I trans now? And
then hopefully that like opens a door in their brain
and they think about it. But yeah, it is. It
is the thing, and I worry that it's the same

(35:24):
thing that happened with the red Pill thing, which I'm
sure we're going to we'll get into where the whole
thing is, like, this is what the movie is about,
and like, no movie this good is about one thing.
So yes, trans allegory, but don't I wouldn't just boil
it down to that except on Twitter if I want
to get retweets. I mean, if you need some engagement,
it's always going to be there in your back pocket,
and exactly I can. I'll take that for view. Thank

(35:47):
thank you for for for kind of unpacking that I
think that it is, like, um, it's been interesting to
watch the I mean even in truly the five years
that I was not watching this movie, the conversation around
this movie has changed so significantly, and a lot of
it is because of your work, And I think it

(36:07):
is like fascinating how many different ways there are to
look at this movie and how the leftist read really
stuck out to meet this time as well, and which
makes it I think even more baffling and like awful
that the red Pill discussion went the way it did
because it's like, well, he's clearly being radicalized in a

(36:28):
very particular direction. Did you watch the movie? Yeah, I
remember when that piece published the Matrix piece on the
twentieth anniversary of the movie, so b March nineteen. I
just know when the Matrix came out. That's a thing
that I just know. Um, there were so many people
who tweeted that piece out, who like very prominent names

(36:51):
within journalism, within the media, etcetera, who were just like,
I thought this movie was a conservative screen because it
had been like taken over by the red Pill people,
and you know, they'd seen the Matrix, but they hadn't
seen it in twenty years or whatever, so it had
like calcified in their mind based on who was obsessed
with it. So I do like the fact that there
is this trans reading of it now because it has

(37:12):
liberated the movie from this sort of fate it was
going to meet. That would be similar to something like
fight Club, where it is now just totally defined by
its bad fans, even though you know it is not
necessarily the movie they're selling it as right, And I
think I think it's been really cool to Um, I
don't know, I'm curious of in your thoughts and this

(37:33):
as well, Emily, how Lana and Lily Wachowski have kind
of engaged with the trans reading of the movie where
it feels like I like their I like their style
of like responding to stuff like this a lot, because
it seems like they never bring up new reads of
the movie, but it's brought to them and they're like,
oh yeah, yeah, that's like that is like, UM, I

(37:55):
don't know. I think that that the way that they
engage with fans of the Matrix is so smart because
it's not like they're resisting doing so at all, but
they're all also not like, I don't know, going the
other way that directors do sometimes where they're over engaging
and creating new cannon and I don't know, I just
they're so fucking cool. It's wild. Lily, Lily Witchusky works

(38:16):
on this really great showtime show called Work in Progress, Um,
and I got a chance to talk to her. I
got a chance to talk to her a couple of
years ago for that show, and I was like, how
do I not just make this interview about the Matrix?
Because she had the other people that work on that
show with her there, so I had to also ask
them questions, and I finally came up with, how is this,

(38:37):
you know, this tiny little TV show that you make
basically independently, how is that any continuum with the Matrix?
And her answer was basically just like, I'm always trying
to talk about the same things and it doesn't matter
the size of the story. And I was like, thank you,
Lily Witchowski, that's a great answer to that question, so amazing. Yeah,
I just to kind of go back to the idea

(39:01):
that a piece of media like this, especially because the
director's intent was not specifically at the time to make
this trans allegory. Because they're both trans women, it stands
to reason that they might have written certain just little
details or themes or something like that into the story
kind of unconsciously, almost or subconsciously, but as you stated,

(39:24):
because it wasn't like deliberately created as this specific allegory
from a very intentional place. Because there are some movies
that are like, whatever, what's his fate? Darren Aronofsky being like, yeah,
mother exclamation point is that you've got like charts behind them.
He's like, the allegory is very precise. You're like yeah,

(39:44):
and then you watch the movie and you're like, what
do you even what are you trying to say here?
But like, the thing with a lot of metaphor and
allegory found in art and in narratives is that it
wasn't necessarily intentional, um, which does mean that it is
open to interpretation. And I think that's just like a
really cool thing about this movie and about the franchise,

(40:08):
and not only that the movie explores all these like
philosophical things. I remember I took a class as a
freshman in college and wrote a paper about the matrix.
So I'm sure you can imagine how brilliant of a
piece of writing that was. But it was a class
called like Philosophy, Art and Film, and you had to

(40:28):
like watch a movie and then take like a philosopher's
philosophy and then apply it to the movie. So I
don't even know what philosophy I was trying to like
attach to the matrix, but I remember I was I
was like, oh my god, I'm so freaking deep right now,
I'm so about this movie is about choice and it's

(40:49):
about duality, and it's about fate or what if there's
not fate, and like just like all this stuff, and
I don't know, I feel like this movie is just
so rich in that way that it is open to
a lot of interpretations and a lot of analysis from
many different perspectives. So our eighteen year old self sort

(41:10):
of totally vibe that's what you're saying. Just just talks
talks the matrix and be like, you know what's kind
of about every philosophy, right, That's like part of what
makes this movie so cool and why I feel like
there there are so many different lenses to view with
its like there is a trans allegory in here. There

(41:31):
is a like leftist radicalization in there, and it's because
it's so unique to who these filmmakers are. So it's like,
of course all this stuff is showing up. And I like,
I mean, there are two of the most distinct filmmakers
in the entire world, like and and I really like,
I mean just truly, as a new convert to the

(41:52):
matrix fandom, I was so blown away and impressed with
how many I mean you said now Aronofsky is stuck
in my mind because this is what I struggle with
with him in certain cases, as like, you know, the
Waaskis are able to take so much complicated stuff and
make it fun and engaging to watch and it's moving
the story, where like other filmmakers are like really getting

(42:15):
bogged down and trying to let you know that they've
read a book and you're like it's fine, Like I
believe you, but I'm so bored and I don't know.
They're just they're so fucking smart. Um, you know, I think, um,
this is the famously a movie, Um that it blends
a whole bunch of influences. You know, it blends in anime,

(42:36):
at blends in also known as kung fu movies, It
blends in like like there's a lot of James Cameron
in this movie, which I don't know that I every
time I rewatched him, Like this is like this is
very on a line with like Aliens or True Lies
or some of those movies. And I think that people
miss how many like intellectual influences are also in there,

(42:58):
and like so like the trance stuff is in there,
the pilosophy stuff is in there, but also just like
they clearly had read a lot of you know, Gnome
Chompski and stuff that just gets dropped in there. But
it's all in the package of this huge, big budget
action movie that totally works as an action movie. You
can detach from all of that and still enjoy this.
It's and I think that's why it's so perfect is

(43:20):
because it works on like sixteen levels at once. I
read on our favorite scholarly journal Wikipedia that the Lilian
Lana Wichowski required the cast to be able to explain
what the Matrix is and they made them read and

(43:41):
I'm not going to pronounce this correctly, but simulacra and
simulation from French philosopher Jean bald God Jean or something.
I do not speak French, but um yeah, the Witch

(44:02):
House kis were like, Kianu Reeves, We're going to require
that you understand a lot of heavy philosophy to be
able to be in this movie. I love that. And now,
just like knowing what sort of person Kianu rees is,
at least in the public facing way, you're just like,
he was so down for that. I don't know. There
we talked about this in the Matrix episode that no

(44:22):
longer exists, but I used to work at a bookstore
as my first I worked at book Soup in l
A and that was my first job when I moved here.
And Kianu Reeves would come every Wednesday night on his
motorcycle and get a new book and Sudoku puzzles and
he's a he's a bookhead. I think it's so cool
that that they gave him homework. I also just like,

(44:44):
as someone who does not have the confidence to give
someone homework, I love that the witch House skis were like, Yeah,
you're gonna need to get a library card and really
put in some hours because the test is on Monday.
Before I would agree to come on the show, I
required you both to read Jock Alldy yards uh similar
cromin Simulation. So I'd like to leave like a ten
minute discussion of that right now. And what your thoughts were? Yes, yeah,

(45:07):
so I thought it was really good. I liked it.
What's your favorite plot twist? I thought it was a
derivative if you're asking me. I liked when Simulacra and
Simulation met for the first time. I thought it was
so I love when they kiss at the end. So romantic,

(45:27):
I know. And you're like, Simulation loved Simulacra so much
the whole time, and Simulacra had no idea, but then
when they heard it, they were It was just I
thought it was beautiful. Another iconic lesbian romance exactly. I
did think it was a little weird when it was
revealed that they were the same person, but that's also
iconic lesbian cinema. So yeah, I I you know, I

(45:51):
liked the duality. I liked the tone, I liked the ideas,
and I loved reading the index. Also, we're all we're
all going to have somebody with high as skywriter above
our houses to say reads Simulation, you assholes reads I

(46:12):
dare you? Oh my gosh, I yeah, I just god,
I love I mean, there is a part of that
anecdote that makes me feel like I'm being like I
was like, oh yeah, this is this is kind of
just a simulation of being in the d s A
where everyone's like, have you read this book, and you're like,
I haven't. I just want everyone to have health insurance.

(46:32):
I'm sorry. The thing that this is this is A
tweeted about this several times. The thing that like like
most makes me stand out at like when I hang
out with with other leftists, is like, I have super
normy pop culture days. I'm yeah, well you know, I like,
you know, these extremely mainstream HBO shows and they're like,

(46:54):
what about this? And I don't know. That's fine too.
You want to talk about six USh and everybody, right right,
I know, it's just I, um the leftist. I mean,
I love him to death. And make room for us
basic gals because we have something to bring to the
table too. Yeah, you want to listen to Taylor Swift together.

(47:15):
You want to recruit people into the movement, you gotta
be able to talk about what happened on Succession last week. Sorry, um,
let's take another quick break and then we will come
back for more discussion, and we're back. One last comment

(47:36):
on the homework section. I just like that that section
ends with Carrie and Moss commented that she had difficulty
with this process. Kotu was like, yes, more books, and
She's like, I did not sign up for this. I
thought I was going to be wearing a jacket and fighting.
I mean, I don't know how much of her fighting

(47:59):
in the movie is like stunt people, but it seems
like a lot of the actors were like trained in
martial arts and doing a lot of their own stunts
and fight choreography, which is very impressed by. So she
was probably just busy learning like martial arts, and she
didn't have time to read a book, much like us.

(48:19):
I remember Laurence Fishburne was on Hannibal and Um I
talked to Brian Fuller a lot around that show, and
he was like, sometime between season one and season two,
Lawrence fishburn came to him and was like, listen, Briant,
I have all this kung fu training from the Matrix.
Can I get in a fight? And like, there's an
amazing fight in season two that was inspired entirely by

(48:40):
him being like, Brian Fuller, I know how to fight,
Please let me fight. So, yeah, they did a lot
of their own stuff. Yeah, that's so cool. I guess
if I knew how to do kung fu, I would
just try to work it into whatever I did for
the rest of my life. Also, that's so cool. Really
hard to do in an audio medium, is the thing.
But yeah, I would definitely try and work. At end

(49:01):
of season three of Our yeah, I mean just just
again leak leak the zoom call, you know, our hair
looks great. We have kung fu skills to show off.
What are we doing? I wanted to talk about the
film itself, the narrative, the characters, because I think we've

(49:23):
got an interesting cast of characters here, and I think
one of the reasons the movie holds up as well
as it does. I think one of the reasons that
I was so attached to it as a young person
is like the badassary of Trinity. And this was like
the bulk of our conversation on the again first version
of this episode that no longer exists. But um, the

(49:47):
tapes we should we should drop. We still have the
audio file in our Google drive. We should drop a
little because that was fun for our listeners to go
back and be like, wow, Jamie didn't make a definitive
statement the whole I am interesting. So yeah, maybe on
our Patreon will like leak a couple of minutes or something.

(50:08):
Shame anyways, But um, I feel almost like simple being like, yeah,
Trinity is so cool and badass, and like watching her
fight competently and like know how to hack, and like, no,
she's just she's equipped with with a lot of skills.
But I never felt that she fell into like the

(50:31):
Merry Sue type. I like it's implied that she's had
extensive training to Like, the more you get to know
her character, it's like, you know, how why why she
can do what she does? Write different characters, and it's
often like the villains are constantly underestimating her. Also where
there's like the movie opens on that sequence where there's

(50:53):
like a cop who's like, oh, we can handle one
little girl, and then Agent Smith, who know who Trinity
is and like understands the extent of her capabilities, is like, no, Lieutenant,
your men are already dead. And that was an amazing
Hugo Weaving impression. Thank you so much. That was good.

(51:15):
That was good. How did those gorgeous lips just like,
just like Mr Hugo does Hugo Leaving weavings. Lips are
so distracting in this movie, And I like in a
good way, but I was just like, I just wasn't
expecting those beautiful lips out that whole time. Wow, there's
a part at the very end it's like the final

(51:35):
battle between him and Neo, and again he's constantly calling
Neo Mr Anderson throughout the whole movie, and his voice
gets really gravelly at one point, and he's just like
Mr Randerson, It's incredible, and then like Neo Neo kind
of like flexes and like you see dust come off

(51:58):
of his shirt and then he just like starts to
be Agent Smith's ass uh, it's so good anyway. My
point is people people are often underestimating trinity, which is
something that many women can identify with. Um, even Neo,

(52:19):
like you mentioned Emily Um, there's that scene where he's like, oh,
you're the Trinity who cracked the I R S D
base and she's like, yes, but that was a long
time ago. I'm humble. And then he's like, oh, I
just thought you were a guy, and she's like most
guys do. Um. I don't know, just like those little
nuggets in there, they're kind of like not like throwaway

(52:42):
moments really, but just like little details that I found
made that character just like especially relatable and and I
like that it's like they're not I don't know. There
are certain movies where it's like those moments come off
as extremely over the top, and like I feel like
we've talked about a lot of action movies where there's
like the like you're a googoogo girl, like in the

(53:02):
middle of a scene. But it's just like, even though
that moment happens, it's just a natural part of the scene,
and it's not like the reaction from Neo isn't like
I found out that like a woman is an incredible
hacker and I'm upset about it. He's just like, Oh,
I guess my assumption was wrong. And then the scene
continues and it's like, Oh, I didn't realize that. What

(53:23):
a relief that is to watch someone react like that.
The sympathy of that moment in that scene is with Trinity,
and that's why it works because you're like, you're like, oh,
she's been underestimated. That fucking sucks because I already know
she can kick people in the face, you know or whatever.
You mentioning how how much hacking is in this movie
reminds me. This is other influence in the film that's

(53:43):
totally been forgotten, which is mid nineties movies about the
Internet that trying to like personify like this is just
Sonder blocks the Net, but like a little bit better,
you know, Yeah, the net. We should cover the net.
We should cover the net. We've covered hack. I'll come
on to talk about the net anytime, please come back
into the net. Oh my god. Um. There's another small

(54:07):
moment that's like again very fleeting, but just like relatable
and and I really appreciated it where Neo has taken
the red pill. They're kind of like preparing him to
be unplugged from the matrix and like Trinity is hooking
him up to a bunch of like apparatus and Neo
is just like, you did all this to Trinity and

(54:28):
she was just like mm hmmm. So like it was
just like a nice moment where he like recognizes that
she probably put in all of this effort and like
did all this work and like set up this whole thing,
especially now that he knows that she's the one who,
like how's all these amazing like hacking and computer skills.
And then she's just like uh huh, yeah I did that,

(54:48):
like very matter of fact ye, And he's just like cool.
And because like so many movies, like you said, Jamie,
there would be if we saw a woman like doing
something impressive, or we saw like you know, kicking or
hacking or something, the guys would be like what boner right, right, yeah,
and then they'd like instantly fall in love with her,

(55:08):
and they were like jaws would drop and they just
like wouldn't know how to turn into that corny cartoon
wolf right, and they just wouldn't know how to comprehend that,
like a woman is capable of something, especially something that
they assume would be something that only a man could do.
So yeah, just these like little moments that we like
learn things about her character, we learn about her abilities,

(55:31):
and it's just presented a very matter of factly and
in a way that like Neo immediately accepts and there
is I think, um, some of those moments where people
are like, whoa Trinity, you can do things? Um, they
feel so much like studio notes. They feel so much
like somebody at the exact level was like, well, if

(55:53):
she's with all these computers, someone has to note that
she did that, and that's unusual because she's a girl,
And so they put that in the script and like
most directors would make a big moment of that. But
like the Witch, how skis, even if they were not
aware of their transness at the time, their sympathies are
always with Trinity because they are in fact women, uh,

(56:13):
And like that makes those moments play because you're not
like sitting there and being like, oh my god, this
is so condescending because it's it is like a thing
that would have been condescending in any other movie with
the exact same dialogue. It's just like how they wait
that scene. I was. I was. I was kind of
challenged by a lot of moments in the movie for
that exact reason, where it's like on paper, if you

(56:36):
hear like a similar thing with with Joey Pants, when
you find out that Joey Pants has been lusting after
Trinity was. At first, it being my first time encountering
this plot point, I was like, Oh cool, we're adding
in a spiteful ex boyfriend character to the one woman
we're going to get to know during this movie, Like
where is this gonna go? But the way I don't know.

(56:57):
I generally felt like the way that that storyline play out.
I just feel like almost any other director would have
implied that Trinity had somehow brought this upon herself, that
she could have handled rejecting Joey Pants in a different
way that would have prevented this outcome. But this movie
doesn't go for that at all. It presents the spiteful
Joey Pants ex boyfriend, of which there are unfortunately many

(57:21):
in the world, and does not blame the woman who
is being raged at for what is happening, which again
is just like I feel like that just wasn't happening
a lot in movies at that time, and I was
I ended up being kind of pleasantly surprised by I mean,

(57:41):
and again, it's like, that's scraps, but it it. I
was surprised that was how that story kind of played out.
What if every shitty, spiteful ex boyfriend turned into a
clone of Joe Pantoliano, like Agent Smith overtaking someone in
the matrix. Now that's a movie, I hope. I hope
that's Resurrections that they just had start showing it. I

(58:06):
did want to talk a little bit about the romantic
subplot between Trinity and Neo, because that's the one aspect
of this movie where I get a little I don't know,
I mean yeah, entering it in, I feel like it
stood out to me a little bit more because I
didn't have any nostalgia for the movie, and also because

(58:28):
we recently covered speed in this movie, which ends with
Kanu getting a little a little slurp at the end
a plot resolving slurp if you will. Yeah, my main gripes,
I don't even hate that it's there. You know, movies
be movies, and movies have hetero romantic subplots in them often,

(58:51):
but I don't there there are heterosexual I know. Is
that's still a thing. God, I'm actually writing standout material
about this as we speak, But um my gripes with
it are that Neo being brought back to life by

(59:11):
like Trinity's love and kiss to me that almost read
is like because it's a it's a surprise kiss of
Trinity kissing Neo while he's unconscious, like the prince in
snow White bringing back to life, like that whole fairytale thing.
It's like why you're like, don't don't kiss an unconscious

(59:34):
person they cannot consent and stop showing that in movies. Also,
um my other question I'm interested to hear people's thoughts
about this, is so the oracle prophesied that or does
that a word prophecied? Made a prophecy, she did a prophecy.

(59:54):
She did she did a prophecy that Trinity would fall
in love and that that man would be the one.
And then that ends up being true. My question is,
does it feel like that kind of removes agency from
Trinity or is that not how prophecies work? No, I do,
I mean, I don't know. I My feeling on that

(01:00:16):
was like, if we're I, Trinity receiving my prophecy, of
which you seem to only get one, I would be
sort of let down that the prophecy seemed to have
actually not that much to do with me, and more
like a second prophecy for a different person. Like I
do think that there's like that trope that you see

(01:00:36):
a million times of like a woman's love will you know,
it's like Helen of troy Ship. You know, a woman's
love will resolve the plot or the war, whatever it is,
that's definitely present here. I don't know, I mean in
terms of agency, I guess I hadn't really considered that,
But I think that that's where of a testament to Like,

(01:00:57):
it feels so clear in the plot that Trinity and
and EEO should be together that if I felt like
there wasn't chemistry between those characters, um and that I
wanted them to kiss so badly, maybe maybe that would
have told me. I don't know that it does then
I mean when you think about the prophecy that Morpheus received,
which was you're going to find the one. Neo's prophecy

(01:01:20):
is you are the one as long as you believe
that you're the one, and once you believe that you're
the one, then you're the one. Those are prophecies that
have to do with them, right. And then Trinity's prophecy
is You're going to fall in love with a man,
which feels it feels like a very gendered choice. But again,

(01:01:41):
I don't even hate that the love stories there, but
it does, know, I mean, I like the love story.
I do think that the two sequels really do a
lot to further sell it. And I'm always like reading
who those two characters become back onto the first movie,
but I remember I was very much like, yeah, I
don't know this love story. I I think they have

(01:02:01):
good chemistry, but I'm not sure it was needed. But
like Matrix Reloaded especially has some great stuff for those
two characters to sort of bounce off of each other.
But yeah, like if it wasn't for their chemistry, I
don't think it would work. Fortunately they have amazing chemistry. Yeah, yeah,
I do. I do feel like there are there are

(01:02:21):
some kind of and Emily, once you brought up studio notes,
now I can't stop thinking of, like, well, at what
you know? I now I want to blame everything I
didn't love about the movie on studio notes, but who knows.
I do feel like it would have been just as
easy and it wouldn't have impacted the story for them
to not get together in that way and be like

(01:02:42):
a team. And I think that that would have been
just as strong a choice and would have worked completely fine,
and the love story didn't have to be there. I
didn't hate that it was there, but I felt like, yeah,
my my main thing was like we especially because the
movie starts with just a long introduction to how fucking
cool and capable and brilliant Trinity is for her to

(01:03:03):
get uh message like that from the oracle and then
just have it bear out and not have Trinity, I
mean she it's I thought it was interesting because in
the movie she seems kind of annoyed that that is
what she was told, or like very conflicted of like
that's what I have to learn, like because it just
we know, like we've seen how much she can do.

(01:03:23):
It doesn't quite make sense that her fate would be
so limited in the way that it's presented. There's a
great piece on the sadly defunct website that dissolved by
um Tasha Robinson about this very thing about how many
movies have a basically a trinity character who's badass and
capable and can do anything, and then her story ends

(01:03:44):
up being but also she falls in love with the guy,
and the Matrix actually does a pretty good job with
that idea, and it's sort of the innovator of that trope,
which is I think why in some ways it gets
away with it. But then by the time she wrote
it in, it's just like everywhere and it's not doing anything.
It's just like sitting there taking up space and having

(01:04:06):
the illusion of strong women characters while never actually having
to create a strong women character. They're creating the trappings
of one without actually having to make a full character.
By the way, do you think people go to the
oracle and get just like really boring prophecies? Do you
think the oracles ever just like Jamie, you've seen the

(01:04:26):
most beautiful duck you'll ever see already, Like, do you
think that ever just comes up? And then I would
just walk into traffic afterwards, I'd be like, well, thanks
a lot, I hope so I well, we'll get to
the oracle, whole, whole whole discussion to be had there.
I God, that's my that's my worst fear is to

(01:04:48):
encounter someone who's just like, yeah, your best days are
very much behind you, so just write it out. But yeah,
I mean, Jamie you pointed out the movie opens with this,
like the whole sequence showcasing Trinity and her skills. Like
for this action movie to open on an action set piece,

(01:05:11):
which is not uncommon for an action movie, but for
that action set piece to center around a woman and
a woman who's not even the protagonist, because you would
expect that from something like Laura Croft tomb Raider or
something like that. But we get this whole set piece
where we see a woman fighting and kicking ass, and
she doesn't even end up being the protagonist of the narrative.

(01:05:32):
I think is like, I don't know where else I've
ever seen that. I don't think really anywhere. Yeah, I
think just to kind of jump back to how yeah,
before this, and especially like action movies and action franchises,
the one woman character who we get to know pretty well,
would be framed only as the romantic interest who maybe

(01:05:56):
gets like dragged along for the ride, but isn't participating
in an any of the action or the plot herself,
and it's just kind of like present for the man
to eventually kiss at the end. Whereas this movie, and
I'm sure you know there are other examples before this,
but like I feel like this is one of the
ones that like kind of popularized or like actually gave

(01:06:18):
the woman more agency, more to do, more skills, and
actually allowed her to participate in the plot in more
meaningful ways, but still couldn't quite stick the landing on
given her the full story. Right, there's there's really before
this movie. There is. If you're a woman in a movie,

(01:06:39):
you are just an incredible badass. Woman in an action movie,
you're just an incredible badass. Usually there's not a man around,
like the kind of the one exception I'm thinking of
right now is um Linda Hamilton's and Terminator to but
even like in the first Terminator, she falls in love
with this guy and has sex with him, you know whatever,
or you are the love interest, you know um, So

(01:07:00):
this is the first movie that tries to blend those
two but it is very much like at the end
they have to pick one of those two corridors and
they pick the wrong one. To my mind, it's messy
and it's and it's like we're it's not even like
we're suggesting that women who can execute perfect fight choreography
and hack a computer don't deserve love if they want

(01:07:23):
love or and they want a relationship, But it's like
more the way that it's executed and how what we're
told in the first half of the movie is what
makes her special, isn't what makes her special or relevant
to the plot by the end, And that is like
I don't know if that all like played in and
she wants a boyfriend. Amazing, great love that, but yeah,

(01:07:47):
I don't know. Definitely a little bit messy, but still
I mean I keep every time I like Peel, the
need to qualify it at every turn as like, but
it's doing way better than any other movie was doing
at this time, like by quite a bit. So I
feel like, yeah, that's there's a lot of product of
its time. Zenous to that choice along the lines of

(01:08:08):
this being a product of its time. This is a
movie from as we've stated at nine nine is just
clogged with movies that are about, well, we've reached the
end of history capitalism one and everything's great. Why do
I feel hollow inside? And like there's like five or
six that come out in even more if you include

(01:08:28):
two thousand. But the Matrix is the one that's held
up best to my mind because it has this larger
critique of everything feels empty because you have been misled
by corporations and governments and all these systems to think
that you do not have any actual human connection. And
the truth is you should have human connection. You should

(01:08:48):
move to a city at the center of the earth
and just funck everyone you see, Like that is the
message of these movies. But like you know, you compare
it to something like American Beauty, which one best picture
that year, And it's just that that vision of like
what it means to be alive is like so shallow,
and this movie's vision of what it means to be
alive is so rich and fascinating and weird and complicated.

(01:09:10):
And um, I think that is to the credit of
the Witch, how skis whatever stumbles they may have made
along the way. Sure, I totally yeah. I just love Trinity,
and I also love how there. I don't know the
way that the characters are presented in this movie. I
know it's just like a part of the aesthetic of
this world as it is. But the women in this

(01:09:30):
world are not aggressively sexualized. You know. Everyone is basically
wearing the same exact outfit. Everyone has a variation on
the same exact haircut, and then everyone has the jawline
to pull off that haircut. And don't don't get us wrong,
Trinity is very sexy. But yes, I agree everyone sexually

(01:09:53):
everyone's sexually am sexy, but yeah, not overtly sexualized. Yeah,
it's kind know that it is kind of that nineties
Internet aesthetic where it's like, well, online everyone's the same.
Everyone just kind of looks the same, has the same
vibe on the Internet, no one knows you're a dog
whatever that cartoon was at the time. Like, um, and

(01:10:14):
I when I've watched the trailer for this there's a
lot more less homogeneity, you know, within that world. And
I think it's because now we understand the Internet can
be as terrible as real life too, if not worse.
I wanted to uh, we even talked too much about Morpheus,
yet I wanted to talk about Morpheus a little bit.

(01:10:38):
I mean, first of all, because he's amazing, he's great, um,
But there was as I was going back to it,
so I was doing the always interesting but sometimes unpleasant
task of going back to the original round of criticism
for this movie in the late nineties, going into kind
of like movie blogs of the early two thousands, and

(01:10:59):
there was, I think, especially in the earlier years of
this movie, a fair amount of criticism around mystical black
character tropes used in the writing of Morpheus's character as
well as the oracle. UM. So I kind of wanted
to uh open the floor on on that topic to
I mean, the criticism that I was seeing and we

(01:11:21):
can um link this in the description as well, is
that and we've discussed this, I mean we we just
discussed this on the show in our full Court Miracle
episode or that troupe couldn't be more different movies, but
the trope is at play to varying degrees in both
of these movies that are made by and you know,
made and written by white filmmakers, in which essentially black

(01:11:43):
character appears as this mystical fairy godmother plot advancement character
for the chosen white protagonist, whether that be Neo or
the kid in Full Court Miracle. You know, it just
it just all depends um. And I mean I I
think that it's absolutely a valid criticism of the way

(01:12:04):
that those characters are written. Not the worst example, but
um certainly is present. I think Originally, I mean, the
term was originally used by Spike Lee in two thousand
and one, and I have an old Salon article up
here which really takes me back. But the character is
being cited. When this term was first coined. Was Kuba

(01:12:27):
Gooding Jr. In What Dreams May Come, which is a
movie I haven't seen that's about a spirit guide helping
Robin Williams rescue his wife from hell. Question mark um
will Smith in the Legend of Bagger vans Uh Laurence
Fishburne in The Matrix, which is described as in this
as obi Wana. Kiana Reeves is Luke Skywalker, and Michael

(01:12:48):
Clarke Duncan in The Green Mile, in which he plays
a man on death Row who has healing powers and
heels white characters. Do you want to know the Supper
Eyes twist of What Dreams May Come? What Cooper Gooding Jr.
Is playing Robin williams son in disguise to like lead

(01:13:09):
him through the afterlife, because if it was his actual son,
Robin Williams wouldn't like go along with it. I don't know,
it's very weird. I have never heard of this movie,
and but um, yeah, so I did. I did want to,
you know, just bring that criticism up, because it's uh,

(01:13:32):
something that comes up quite a bit in movies still.
But I think in a high density of movies of
this kind of stretch of years in the late nineties
into their early two thousands, sure it does. One thing
I like about the casting of the fourth movie is
it seems, yes, they have abdual Matine playing who is
obviously the Morpheus character. Um, but they have a bunch

(01:13:54):
of other actors of color and different roles that look
like they're going to be all kind of over the map,
and I think that will help with this issue. I
do think I think that like this is obviously a
valid and important criticism of the film. I do think
that there is the thing of you know, they get
considered a lot of different actors for the role of Morpheus.

(01:14:16):
They settled on Ward's fishburn, should they when they settled
on him, did they settle on him because they had
certain you know, racist stereotypical ideas that you know, we're
in their heads already, you know, we can't know that.
But I do think once you've cast a black actor
in a role like this, you do have sort of
the burden of going back over the script and being like, Okay,

(01:14:37):
are there ways we can complicate this? Are other ways
we can make it more interesting? That said, I think
that Morpheus is nowhere near Kuba cutting juniors. Like he's
a fully realized human being, and like, sometimes the tropes
are bad because they we just lean on the tropes,
and sometimes the tropes exist because we need certain tropes

(01:14:59):
to tell us worries. We're not saying we need this one.
But Morpheus is a fully realized human being, and I
think that keeps him from falling into the worst examples
of this. The thing that and again it's like we're
we're three white women here, and I want to be clear,
extremely white. When I said big Greece witherspin energy, I
was describing myself. Uh, but but I did, I mean

(01:15:21):
the only thing that this is even like pushing back
at all. But like Will Smith almost played Neo is
another thing that I kind of took into consideration when
I was just kind of going through this criticism is
I think that I totally agree with the Emily where
it is on the filmmakers once they've made their casting
decisions to consider, you know, whether intended or not, what

(01:15:44):
might be coming across, and and take that into consideration
with how characters are presented and how their their storylines unfold.
But it does seem like the cast I mean, reading
about the casting process for The Matrix outside of this
discussion is just very interesting. Will Smith has made so
many YouTube videos about how he almost took his part.
He's still mad about it. There's one in particular that

(01:16:07):
like involves some animation and he like it's so funny.
He's spending money telling people that he was almost in
the Matrix, Like it's funny, it's amazing. So I I
think that you know, where the casting dead land. It's
a valid criticism and and you know, I think we're
being made now, Like if this movie was coming out now,

(01:16:27):
it would be something that would be taken into account
carefully because Spike Lee made this criticism of all of
these movies. So yeah, and I definitely think the Oracle
does fall a bit more into that trope, for I mean,
because we know nothing about her. She's in one scene,

(01:16:48):
and everything we know about her is that she seems
to have these like kind of otherworldly clairvoyant capabilities that
no one else has. So yeah, she is presented as
this very like mystical figure. I love that performer though.
Gloria Foster so good and so there's something so warm

(01:17:10):
about her and like I wish we'd gotten ten million
more performances from her. She's so good. Yeah, she's also
in the Matrix Reloaded, and then I believe that actor
died before they shot Revolutions, but the character is still
there and they actually comment on like why she looks
different because she gets a different actor gets cast to

(01:17:31):
play the Oracle in Matrix Revolutions. But um, yeah, that
actor was incredible and like funny too in a movie
that doesn't have a ton of like very light calming scenes.
It's just I don't know, And and the set design,
the kitchen, the green kitchen that she's in is so

(01:17:52):
I don't know. She's she's good, she's very good, but
I do think also cleanly falls into that chap. Yeah,
I just saw that Will Smith turned this movie down
to do Wild Wild West. Yeah, yes, isn't it. So
that's why he's so bad about it and he'll never
get over it is because he didn't just turn it

(01:18:13):
down to do a different good movie. He turned it
down to do because of my favorite bad movies. Yeah,
we'll send you the link to the video where he
like lays out the whole story. It's very funny. He
was just kind of like a skeptical of the script,
I think, And he also didn't I think he didn't
want to be typecast as like the sci fi action

(01:18:35):
guy because he had already been in Men in Black
and Independence Day. So yeah, it's well, well, we'll share
the link to everybody of that video, but it'll make
sense on paper. But then when you know that he
turned down the Matrix, that is funny. And I think
it would have I mean, I wouldn't trade Keian you
as Neo for for anyone, but I do I do

(01:18:55):
like to think of like Will Smith and Laurence Fishburne
would have been I mean, it would have been very different,
but it would have been cool. It would have been good. Well,
that's the thing. It wouldn't have been Laurence Fishburne. They
had Val Kilmer in mind to play Morpheus, had it
been Will Smith got cast. I have to go back
and watch Will Smith's cursed YouTube video about this. I
forgot about that. But even though these tropes are present

(01:19:20):
in this movie, I would say that this is a
surprisingly diverse cast for a late a late nineties action movie.
And I think it gets even more diverse as the
movies go on, because in the two sequels a ton
of new characters are introduced, maybe even too many, I
would argue, but most of them are people of color,

(01:19:42):
especially the characters who are like fighting for the resistance,
like who are like inhabitants of Zion, are like mostly
people of color. Do you think it bugs Will Smith?
Because Jada Pinkett Smith is in the two sequels and
like she just holds it over him all that time,
as I did consider that guy and have they we
know that they have some some issues that they need

(01:20:04):
to work out in public. They have to uh there.
I just wanted to Sorry. I know we're having every
and extremely academic discuss I just wanted to go through
the other casting stuff because I always forget how kind
of wild it was. Um so yeah, Will Smith said,
I would rather do Wild Wild West, one of the
taking one of the biggest els in all of casting history.

(01:20:25):
Nicholas Cage turned it down due to family obligations. Who
knows what that means. Uh. Leonardo DiCaprio originally accepted the part,
but then said that he did too many visual effects
in Titanic and he didn't want to do it anymore.
Then the studio was like Keanu Reeves who got the
role over Johnny Depp, who I guess is who the

(01:20:46):
witch how skis wanted for this role. And then there
was a side quest where they sent the screenplay to
Sandra Bullock and we're going to rewrite Neo to be
a woman, which I guess didn't happen, but I was like, oh,
that's interest think, there's just really the net. It would
just have been the net. It could have been the net.
I yeah, so you know, that's a lot of information

(01:21:09):
all at once. I would have loved Neo as a woman,
especially because we talked about this a lot, where there
are a Brazilian Chosen One narratives as movies and very
few of them are about a woman, so that would
have been very cool. But at the same time. I
love Kano as Neo, I know, and and for Trinity. Sorry,

(01:21:30):
it's just it's really interesting. Janet Jackson was considered for Trinity,
and Samahak and Jada Pinkett Smith were also considered, and
then um didn't do it, but then Jada came in later. Anyways,
Janet Jackson is such a fucking good movie actress and
she's only made just a handful of films and she's
just really good. Come on, Janet, I want to like,

(01:21:53):
I want Hollywood to cast Janet more often or I
don't know, I don't know. It sounds like she was
pretty bummed about not getting to do the main tricks. Yeah,
but yeah again. American action franchises have usually a pretty
big problem with casting mostly white actors. But again, the matrix,

(01:22:13):
even the first movie is doing better than most. Between
the protagonist Neo played by Kiana Reeves, who is coded
white I think a lot of times in in movies,
UM he is of European, Chinese, and Polynesian ancestry, so
he's multiracial. So between Kanu Lawrence Fishburne as Morpheus, the

(01:22:39):
actors who play Tank and Dozer, the actor who plays
Apoc Julian Arjanga is Maori again just a more diverse
cast than most action movies of this time, and more
representative of what a futuristic leftist society would look like.
So it makes narrative sense and world building sends in

(01:23:01):
a way that a lot of movies ignore is true
and like this is this has nothing to do with
the film's racial diversity, but I think in terms of
gender presentation diversity, obviously this movie is very androgynous across
the board. But belindam glorious, which the character who was
originally sort of intended is translate there, nobody was nobody
was styled like that in an action movie at the time,

(01:23:23):
Like she's just so there's just such an an androgynous,
nonconforming energy just sort of pouring off of her totally.
And I really, I mean, I just and this is
kind of just like a compliment to the movie. But
the way that the crew of the ship, which I'm
not going to try to say because I'm not going

(01:23:43):
to say it right, but the way that the crew
works together, I just I just really like how they
interact with each other. Where like you were saying earlier
in this episode, only like everyone has a distinct personality
even when you don't hear them speak very much. Everyone
knows what their role is. But I just I don't
know the way that the movie is written and they're

(01:24:04):
used so thoughtfully to like, oh, this person is talking
behind Morpheus is back a little bit, or like the
way that Trinity clearly has this deep respect for Morpheus
but is sometimes like, well he's wrong about that though,
like he's wrong and he is being shortsighted, and just
like I don't know, I really love when there's a
group of characters who clearly hold a lot of love

(01:24:27):
and respect for each other, but also we are constantly
talking about each other um in a way that is
just like very effortless, and in this completely bizarro world,
feels like real and like actual dynamics that you would
see in a group of friends who you know, the
fate of the world is not hinged on. Is it
fair to say that part of the trans allegory is

(01:24:49):
that like this group of people is like each other's
chosen family. Yeah, that's I think that that is very
um there is a queerness to it that is very
I think interesting and I don't know how intentional, but
definitely subconsciously intentional, intentional. I'm thinking about how they're making
so many TV shows set in like movie universes now,

(01:25:12):
and like a show just sort of set on any
given ship in the Matrix universe where they're just like
hanging out and complaining about each other and occasionally fighting
spider robots. Brad. I'd watch that, I would watch. That
would be incredible. Yeah. The one thing I didn't watch
in preparation for this was Animatrix, which I haven't seen
at all, and I've heard it's good and I think

(01:25:34):
I just need to sit down and commit to it.
But it's really hard to see now. I think it's
on HBO Max. It's on HBO Max. Okay, so I
just for a long time it was hard to see. Yeah,
it seems to be accessible now, so I'm going to
go check it out. But um oh, I was going
to say, going back to the discussion of gender expression
and presentation of certain characters, Trinity's character design and aesthetic

(01:25:59):
is also what you would expect as the main female
character in an action movie who also plays the role
of the love interest of the male hero. Her clothes
and haircut are I would say pretty gender neutral. You know,
she doesn't have this long flowing hair that's completely impractical

(01:26:20):
to fight bad guys with. And she's not like made
up in a bunch of makeup the way that, again,
a lot of women would be in an action franchise,
because the function that a lot of women serve in
an action franchise is to like be eye candy for
what the studios assume is going to be a mostly

(01:26:40):
hetero male audience. But they don't stylize Trinity that way,
and it wouldn't make sense that she would like be
all made up when she's like flying around in the Nebuchadnezzar.
But they also don't make her up that way when
she's like in the Matrix either, which I thought was
interesting and cool. They in fact even make her a
little less glamorous in the sequels, like if that's an all,

(01:27:03):
Like I love how stripped down the visuals of this
just just constantly are in terms of not trying to
make anyone movie pretty. There of course incredibly attractive, but
they don't like overstate that attractiveness, right yeah, I mean,
And again it's just like the Wakis are so confident

(01:27:24):
when they make a choice, they make it so hard
that it's like, yeah, we're just gonna let the hot
people be hot and not you know, they're all going
to wear the same outfit. We don't need to embellish it.
Like we're just gonna let the jawlines do what they
do and fall where they may, and it's going to
be sexy because it is. Like I was just thinking

(01:27:45):
about the bullet time thing where the camera swings all
the way around. I like the other early major use
of this technology was for a gap commercial like really
that came out at the holiday as. Yeah, it was
like they were doing a swing dance or something. Oh yeah,
I remember that. I cannot remember if the gap ad

(01:28:08):
predates the Matrix or the Matrix predates the gap at
because I don't think that bullet time was invented for
the Matrix, but I think it was like a thing
that they pulled in that other people had also come
up with. But I would not be surprised if it
would be great if the gap AD came first and
like everyone in the Matrix was like we missed it
by like two months, um, But I do think the

(01:28:29):
Matrix came first, So I would love sitting in a
movie theater. Here's someone lean over and be like, they're
just ripping off that gap commercial. I saw so derivative
of that gap commercial. Unbelievable. UM. I wanted to really
quickly touch on just because and we can kind of

(01:28:49):
blow through this, but because the red pill discussion snowballed
out in the way that it did, I just wanted
to quickly touch on not even UM. I mean, I'm
assuming if you listen to the show, you're aware of
the wild misinterpretation that the term red pill had taken,
where it's intended to be some reveal of a great

(01:29:12):
truth and then was co opted by right wing weirdos
who were like, yeah, and the truth is that straight
white guys are oppressed, and you're like, that's not the
one that was being referred to. UM. But I did
just want to um quickly. It seems like the Wachowski's,
I mean, the Witchowskis have responded to this, but I

(01:29:34):
think the best exchange was from Lily Wichowski back in May,
because that's when Elon Musk tweeted take the red Pill,
and then Ivanka Trump retweeted it saying taken, and then
Lily Wachowski replied by saying funk both of you, which

(01:29:54):
I think is really all you need to know. That's
that that's the story, and that show an icon. I
remember I covered the early days of gamer Gate, which
is the reactionary movement that basically folved into the Trump
campaign UM, and they were all talking about the red Pill,
and I was like, I feel like you haven't actually
watched the Matrix, and like at the time, I was like,

(01:30:15):
this will dispel this if I just I'm like, no,
the Matrix is a very different theme, but it didn't
work for some reason. To this day, the gap ad
does predate the mat I can't believe it. Okay, I
don't like the Matrix anymore. Derivative. The tech that made
up bullet time has been around since like the dawn

(01:30:38):
of cinema. People have been like, if we put a
bunch of cameras around something in film it from all
those angles, then we can But like computers were required
to like actually simulate moving around, and the gap AD
just like got there first. But the term bullet time
specifically was coined for the Matrix. So God, I want

(01:30:58):
to see that gap commercial now. I don't think I've
ever seen it. Yeah, I mean i'd have to link
it in the description. I say that five hundred times
an episode, and then I have to go find it.
And it's awful. I'm posting. I'm posting the bullet time
at in chat. Thank you so much. Okay, thank you. Um.
Does anyone have anything else they would like to talk
about in regards to the Matrix? That's all I had,

(01:31:22):
I believe. Yeah. I just wanted to state that I
have found my anagram and it's a Warden fever filmy. Wow,
that's really okay. Get the merch. Get the merch going amazing.
Mine I couldn't find my mine all suck. I don't
know what's wrong. My I got the wrong letters. Jamie.

(01:31:43):
Just come up with the hacker name for yourself, and
then I know. I used to do a whole show
about hackers, but I didn't know what I was talking about,
so I've had to stop doing the show. But maybe
that name will be more in agrammable. It's true, it's
just a thought. I'll work on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um.
We've had this conversation before on the other Matrix episode

(01:32:07):
that has been lost to time, about whether or not
this movie passes the Bechdel test. Yeah, and I feel
I don't remember what we concluded, and I did not
remember to pay attention to whether or not it passes
when I was watching it this time around. I think
it's a barely pass situation due to a quick exchange

(01:32:31):
that Trinity and Switch have in the car when Neo's
got the bug all scooting around in his guts. It's
possible that he's the subtext of that conversation. But I'm
inclined to just want to give this movie anything we can.
But I didn't know that they have like one or
two exchanges they are just between the two of them
that I believe are about the bug. They're about the bug,

(01:32:53):
but the bug is in Neo, so I don't know
about it. I mean, we've all got a bug inside
of us somewhere, so technically that's true, the Bug and
the Bug famously genderless, genderless icon the Bug, the Bug. Yeah,
And then I remember talking about how there's a conversation

(01:33:13):
where when Cipher is sabotaging them and when he kills
Switch and Apoc, he's talking to Trinity and he's like,
if there's anything terribly important you have to say to Switch,
say it now. And then before Trinity can say anything
to switch and then maybe pass the Bechdel test. Uh,
cipher kills switch. So he really doesn't want women to

(01:33:35):
talk to each other. Yeah, that's why he's not an ally,
not because he's murdering people. Now, technically, you're right, this
movie does barely pass because the bug is genderless. But
when you consider that Neo and Trinity are both trans lesbians,
then it passes so much flying colors. Let's go with that.

(01:33:59):
I just I just want to give this movie nice. Thanks, Jamie.
I'm so glad you like it. I was not sure
if you would because I know you're famously not an
action movie fan. But it's not just an action movie.
There's so much coming with so much more, and they
have a little horny Will Poulter character. I'm like, you
know what, I like the movie. It's good. No, I

(01:34:21):
really loved it. There is this on the website that
exists in service of the Bechtel test, which is I
think wrong quite a bit of the time. But spectel
test dot com there is such an extensive conversation arguing
about whether this movie passes the Bechtel test. No one
seems to agree. I just pulled it up and people
do talk about that scene in the car, and people

(01:34:43):
are arguing about what we were just talking about of like,
well the bug in the which, honestly, if you have
to get I feel like our rule of thumb is like,
if you have to get that far in the weeds
about it, it probably doesn't test the Recktel test if
you have to like split hairs like that. But I
think under Emily's qualification it does pass, and let's not
worry about it. I'll just go on that site and

(01:35:03):
I'll be like, no, listen, everyone in this movie is
a trans lesbian. Passes every test. The whole movie passes. Yeah. Also,
as we always say that, you know, the Bechtel test
is not the end all be all for anything. It's
just a jumping off point. What is the end all
be all is the nipple scale? Yes, which is our

(01:35:26):
metric zero. Really appreciated your visceral reaction of hear us out. Technically,
this movie has obviously I know what we're going to
do here, but this I was just thinking about how
this movie has a whole bunch of other nipples on
your back, Like those are just kind of got some
back nipples. They've got back nipples. You've got armed nipples,

(01:35:46):
You've got the back of the head nipple. There's a
lot um wowskis. Know what we wanted. It's nipples and
it's like hard plastic black Witchy saw Joel Schumacher nipples
and we're like, we could, we can do more wreaking
to Okay, So zero to five nipples based on how

(01:36:06):
the movie fares examining it through an intersectional feminist lens, Gosh,
me loving this movie so deeply might cloud my judgment
a bit here, But I love that there are multiple
different reads of this movie, one of them being this
really interesting trans allegory. I love that this is a

(01:36:28):
major franchise directed by trans women, which hopefully paves the
way for there to be more transvisibility on screen of
actual trans people and not just it all being a
metaphor that features all siss people. You know that that's
like the goal that we're aiming for, right, is just

(01:36:50):
like more visibility and hopefully things don't have to be
coded and um steeped in metaphor and and things like that.
But it was nine to Trinity being a character who
I always loved and admired, and that was so Cool
and I love just everything about the damn movie. I'm

(01:37:11):
going to give it four nipples plus maybe also a
half nipple on top of that. Is that too much? Yeah?
We we do give halves and sometimes even quarter nipples.
Get into the decimals if you need to. You know,
it's point three through three repeating, um, whatever it needs

(01:37:34):
to be. I mean maybe I'm being too generous, but again,
I love this movie. I think it holds up and
I'm gonna go out four and a half nipples done, love,
Who are you giving your nipples too? I'm going to
give one to Keanu Reeves, who is the best man alive.

(01:37:55):
I'm going to give one to Gloria Foster, who plays
the Cool. I'll give one nipple to Blenda McClory, who
plays Switch. I'll give one nipple to Laurence Fishburn. And
I'll give my half nipple to the little Black Cat,
who we see twice in the deja vu scene, Little Flee.

(01:38:16):
He's just like my cat. Yeah, so for and half
nipples boom. I'm going to go for and half as well,
mostly because I'm like, I like this movie so much.
What a what a long standing edging experience of saying
I was going to watch this movie, never doing it,
lying out my ass and then learning that I loved
it and I'm excited to watch it again, and I'm

(01:38:38):
excited to watch the new one too, Jimmie, let's go together.
We should. Oh yeah, let's go because I know it's
it's coming out on HBO Max, but it seems like
something that you should see. I would love to, so yeah,
I I'll echo what you're saying there, Caitlin. There are
certainly like dated elements to certain things of the plot,
but you know, it's as far as movies from this

(01:38:59):
year goes. I mean, what more can you ask for?
And it's also just I don't know, it's like such
a movie. Does that make sense? You know, it's such
a movie movie. And I was just interested in every
second and everyone was so unique, even though they all
kind of like look the same, but that also they

(01:39:19):
didn't and there was a lot of diversity, and they're like,
I just it's so fun. I'm excited to watch this
movie again and not have to take notes this time.
It's going to be fun. Yeah. Uh so, I'm gonna
give it for and a half nipples. I'll give one
to Trinity. I'll give one to the Oracle. I'm gonna
give one to Mouse. Sorry, uh loved mouse, loved mouse.

(01:39:46):
I think we really should have paused more to he
was he wanted to cheeseburg and he was horny. Love him.
I'll give half a nipple to Hugo Weaving's lips, and
I'll give my last nipple to the witch House key sisters.
I'm how about you. Well, listen it sounds you know
if I come back on here and do the net,

(01:40:08):
and I'm like, if I give the Matrix anything less
than five, I'm going to feel like I'm insulting it
when I come on here and do the net and
I'm like, I don't know, like two and a half,
you know, Like, so I'm giving it. I'm giving it
to full five. I'm giving it to full five. I think,
especially for its era, it is groundbreaking and impressive and

(01:40:28):
that it mostly holds up today. And you can like
quibble with some of the casting choices. You can quibble with,
like it's presentation of transness, etcetera, but like it still
holds up in a way that like most other action
movies of this era, don't like you think about this
came out to say, just a couple of months before
UM Star Wars Episode one, and you're just like, those

(01:40:49):
are those movies are from different planets entirely. So I'm
going to give a nipple to carry In Moss because
she's she's the best. I'll give one to Kianu. Kiano deserves.
He only has one nipple right now. He needs to
needs to nipples. Yeah, that's good for him. Uh you
know what I got. I gotta give one to the
Witch House Ki sisters, who are just the best and

(01:41:13):
some of my favorite filmmakers of all time. And you know,
I just want to hang out with them so they
seem so cool. I want to um give a nipple
to Bill Pope's cinematography, which is legitimately groundbreaking, change the world,
et cetera. I'm gonna give a I'm going to split
my last nipple one into I'm sorry, I'm breaking the

(01:41:34):
roles to get a half nipple to the Bug because
we love the book. I'm going to give my other
half nipple to producer Joel Silver, not because I actually like,
I'm like, oh wow, great Joel Silver, though he did
get this movie made when like a lot of producers
wouldn't have. But because I like the image of someone
like knocking on his door in the middle of the
night and he comes and looks down and there's just

(01:41:55):
half a nipple laying on his doorstep. I think I
just like that image. So Joel Silver, you get half
a nipple. I bet he appreciates it. But yeah, he
first made a view it as a threat, but then
once he gave him the context he needed, I think
he'd come around. He'd be so happy. It's like that
part in the Matrix when like Neo is rejecting this
whole thing and he's like, I don't believe it. Let

(01:42:16):
me out here, and then he barfs all over the
floor and then he collapsed his face first into his
own barf. But then like in the next scene, he's like, Okay,
I guess it's fine. Perfect the agreeable guy that Emily.
Thank you so much for joining us and for being here.
Come back for the net, come back for anything you
thank you, thank you. I'd love to come back. I

(01:42:38):
had a blast. Good. Where can people check out your writing?
Follow you on social media? Plug anything you want to plug.
I'm on Twitter at twitter dot com, slash Emily V
d w um, I get up to all sorts of nonsense.
They're actually less because I've mostly locked out of Twitter,
but I do tweet every song for the best look
at me and yeah, my writing appears vox dot com.

(01:43:01):
I also have a newsletter where I just write some
of my weirder ideas. That's Emily vdW dot letter, Drop
dot com. I co create Right Show, Run et cetera,
occasionally play a whale in the scripted fiction podcast Arden.
It is about two women who solve Colt cases and
try not to fall in love. Um. It is a comedy,

(01:43:23):
but it's also about my weird drauma. Um so that
hooray uh and you can I. I published a book
a couple of years ago that I still bring up
with Monsters of the Week, complete critical companion to the
X Files. You could find it in at various booksellers. Amazing,
Thank you so much for coming yet. Truly, you're one

(01:43:43):
of my favorite writers in the world, and I'm so
glad that you could be here with us. Thank you
so much. I love this show, and um, I'm glad
that I could make it and talk about nipples. So
amazing come back for the net. I would love to um.
You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram. At spectel cast.

(01:44:06):
You can subscribe to our Patreon a k A Matreon
at patreon dot com, slash pecktel Cast. You get to
bonus episodes every month, plus access to the entire back
catalog of over one hundred bonus episodes. And that's all
for five dollars a month. We're doing some cursed holiday

(01:44:26):
favorites this month, surprise, and you can get speaking of
holidays if you're capitalism NG, you can go to t
public dot com slash the pytel cast and pick up
some merch or not. We won't know, and it's up
to you. And and what's a good way to end
this episode? Um? What is? What is neo? Okay? Neo?

(01:44:47):
At the very end, he's just like, Okay, oh, I
know you're out there and I'm going to show these
people what you don't want them to see. And then
he hangs up the phone and it's likely do they're
turn Can you add in the rage against the machine
at the end of this episode? Yes? How many seconds
can you get away with of like an audio clip

(01:45:09):
before you get sued for copyright stuff? We'll tie, We'll
take it off Mike who knows uh all right? Click
click on

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Caitlin Durante

Jamie Loftus

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Matrix (1999) with Emily VanDerWerff