The Phantom of the Opera with Lindsay Ellis

Jamie and Caitlin emerge from their candlelit swamp apartment to teach singing lessons, wiggle a chandelier, and discuss The Phantom of the Opera (2004) with special guest Lindsay Ellis!

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bedel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them, Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?
Do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef and best start
changing it with the Bechdel Cast. Hello, Welcome to the
Bechdel Cast. My name is Jamie, my name is Caitlin.
You're doing your sexy radio voice. I'm a ghost that

(00:22):
hides in the walls and he tries to raise you.
I'm I'm a sex ghost with a face mask, and
I'm a hot young on Janue Good and singing on
new code for pray. Yeah, I'm so excited. So okay,
this is the Bechtel Cast where we talk about the
portrayal of women in movie inspired by the Bechdel Tests,

(00:44):
which requires that two women in a movie of names
they talked to each other in their conversation has to
be something about something other than a man grow up.
Never happens never, never, once in the history of cinema.
This is an episode I feel like we've been talking
about doing for at least six months. Yeah, well, because
once every two to three episodes, do you find a

(01:07):
way to mention it? Because I loved to shoehorn inch,
Schumacher mentioned, this is our second episode of a Joel
Schumacher movie. Third, so I think only the second. We
did Flatliners and that's no, and we did bat Oh no,
that was a Tim Burton Batman. Okay, Well, lots of
Schumacher undertones in this podcast. I love a mediocre man.

(01:31):
That's why I will always feel like, you know what,
if it's a Joel Schumacher joint. Sure he deserves another chance,
absolutely he doesn't, but he's like five million years old.
He's gonna be making movies until he dies, and we
just have to get used to it. I love how
mediocre Joel Schumacher is. He is just emblematic of just
infinite chances for kind of no reason. I agree that

(01:52):
he's mediocre, and I hate him for that reason. So
we right. I mean I generally only mediocreman are not
okay for some reason. Joel Schumacher, he just he at
least tries to take creative risks that just have historically
never once worked. But he keeps doing it, and he
keeps getting opportunities to do it. And it's just like

(02:14):
so many female directors with challenge you're gonna you know,
diet obscurity. But Joel Schumacher is gonna make five million
movies and they're all gonna be fine there, except this
one is actually really spectacularly bad. I thought you were
going to end it spectacular and I was gonna be upset,
and I thought, I've seen this movie at least twenty times.
I was, I, Well, we'll get into it. It's the

(02:37):
Phantom of the Opera episode the Joel Schumacher film. The
two thousand four Christmas movie season was maybe like my
favorite Christmas movie season growing up, because a fan of
the Opera came out horny for that right. Series of
Unfortunate Events starring Jim Carrey was the first movie I
ever saw that made me viscerally angry and I really

(02:58):
hated and so that was fun. Also National Treasure, which
a hot season, a real hot season. Well, who can
argue with that? Hey, let's introduce our guests. Yeah, she
is a writer, she's a video essay as. She has
this whole series of wonderful video essays, including an amazing

(03:19):
on this movie. We're so almost stinked up there, we
did it. It's early, but there, it's ten, it's happening.
What are we doing? All those little things from seven
to eleven. They put them next to the creamers, but
it's actually like caffeine shots. I've got a couple of
anyone needs me. And that voice you're hearing is our

(03:39):
guest who we started intro and then forgot to do
it the rest of the way. Lindsay Ellis. Thank you, guys,
thank you so much. You happen to be doing a
podcast on my favorite cracks, So so here for this.
We're so excited you. So Phantom of the Opera, you
have a history with this franchise. Maybe I've done three

(04:00):
thirty plus minute videos we've seen on the opera. I
don't front with my Phantom, but it's like probably my
oldest fandom, and its like there's something about Phantom. Like
most things you kind of outgrow, but Phantom just the
stink never leaves you, so you just kind of got
to own it. So when did you see this two
thousand four Juel Schumacher Phantom? Well, I first when I was, like,

(04:25):
you know, a sad fifteen sixteen year old. I mean,
I actually wasn't that sad. Like Phantom drew me out
of an even sadder phase of my life, which is
when I was like in the New Metal and limpist
get and really angry and sad all the time, and
then I discovered musical theater, so there's a logical progression
for you, and uh, I was like really obsessively into it.
And that's actually how I met, like several of my

(04:47):
current business partners to mostly Phantom of the Opera fandom
in two thousand one, like my current co writer Angelina,
I met on fan fiction dot net. Same with a
Lisa Hansen who now does Vampirebout You Too, and Antonello
and Sarah who used to do Nostalgic with me. Not
so much anymore because we live in different cities. But

(05:07):
by the time the movie came out, I wouldn't say
it was over it, but it was like it was
sort of like our joke old thing. We were excited
at first, but then we saw that Schumacher was attached
to it, and then like that like Antonio Vanderis who
wanted it so bad, and they were already making this
terrible creative decision in the form of Emmy Rossim and
Gerard Butler, and we were just like, oh wow, this
is gonna be like just as bad as we think

(05:29):
it will be, and I just remember what was really
funny was like seeing it. Did you see in theater? Yeah?
I saw in theaters with my mother in Asheville, North Carolina.
We were both like, wow, how did they mess that
up so bad? You know the show that's like it's cheesy,
but it works. How it happened? Jamie? What's your history?
Oh man? I also got into fandom, I mean freakishly young,

(05:51):
because my mom is obsessed with Phantom of the Opera.
My mom also, as you know, completely unhinged. But's a
theme with Phantom fans exactly, like we relate to that
Phantom and there's too much of me that I see
in that because I but I have a very specific
memory of when I was really young, I mean probably

(06:13):
five years old. So and it's directly connects to two
of your videos. So I got those Hunchback of Notre
Dame puppets that they sold. Yes, So I got all
of this because my mom ran a daycare out of
our house, and so there'll be some time every day
where I'd be like, I want to be like by
myself because I live here. So my mom would let

(06:34):
me have time alone in a room and she would
give me the three puppets Esmeralda, Quasimodo, and Phoebus, and
she would turn on the original London cast of the
Fantom of the Opera and I would pretend they were
Christine and the Phantom and Raoul So and that was
when I was like five, So it's into Phantom super early.
Like some of my earliest memories are listening to the
Phantom of the Opera and playing with puppets by myself,

(06:56):
so very into it. And then goth teen Jamie, my
middle school choir was going to a production of Fan
of the Opera at the Boston Opera House. I remember
I like had all these fish nets and like very
like Phantom of the Operas super fan clothes on underneath
normal clothes. And then I got to school and I
was like, I'm the biggest fan of fanom of the Opera.

(07:18):
And I had like the skirt from Trip with like
chains on it and like fish nets, and I love
this movie. It's very into it. I've seen I've seen
Fan of the Opera on stage probably fine times. I
think I've actually got to beat Yeah, I've probably seen
it at least fifteen times. It doesn't good old though,

(07:41):
Like if I lived in New York, it was just
sort of like tickets, it was twenty five bucks. You know.
Although like I'm so like, I'm so happy they're finally
replacing bad phantom James Barber. Finally you should have you
should never have hired him. He was not good, worse
than Gerard Butler. No, I don't what it is for
a Broadway fantom, just like you know, on top of
being like a pedophile, he's just not a good phantom. Yeah,

(08:04):
I mean that in the literal since he was actually
actually went to trial for it, and really, yeah, there
was an old man. It's like speaking of mediocre men
getting second chances. Yeah, he was accused and went to
trial for I think one, but then there were two
more accusers, all were under the age of fifteen, and
so they eventually he had a plea deal and so
he was never actually served any time. But that then

(08:27):
he was like after his probation was up in two
thousand twelve or eight, I don't know, Somewhere somewhere in
the Obama years, Broadway was like, welcome back, brother, and
he's been doing pretty well. Why why do we let
criminals do the thing well? I mean that is kind
of a smooth transition right into Uh. There's a lot

(08:48):
of praying on a minor in this movie, a lot
of it. So I had never seen the movie until
a couple of days ago. I thought I had, but
turns out I hadn't, and I didn't know what the story.
I've never this is my first. I hadn't seen the show,
not familia, never read the book. Nothing. But you don't
like music generally, I don't like musicals. But yeah, I

(09:09):
just I have. This was my first experience with Phantom
of the Opera, and boy did this movie sour my experience.
It's good, here's got a lot of pain. Okay, just
just to illustrative point of how much people love this Okay,
so it has on rotten to me as critically, no
one liked it. Everyone said get the electric guitar riff

(09:31):
out of there, right audience score like people love fanom
of the Opera and they hear now people people will,
I guess because like when I did the video about it,
I tended to focus mostly on the technical filmmaking. For
that reason, I think I didn't get a lot of
pushback from fans. But I definitely remember like in two

(09:51):
thousand five, when I guess we were. I was in
college at the time, and uh, you know that was
like when Phantom of the Opera fandom got to shut
the arm from this new movie and like there was
this new wave of people who just loved the movie,
and then there was the old guard that was just
like gate keeping. So there was like a war. I
remember it. Well, yeah, those people they live. Um, should

(10:12):
I do the recap? Yeah? Okay. Family the Opera is
about a young woman named Christine. She is a chorus
girl in this opera house. Also in the opera house
is a spooky phantom man. As he goes as he
really don't know, but everyone's scared of him, and everyone's like, ah,

(10:33):
that's literally yeah, there's there's a literal. Oh, there's there's
a really yeah, there's a really obnoxious set up to
this movie. Oh the frameming devices, and they keep going
back to it. Patrick Wilson's age makeup is Patrick Wilson

(10:53):
and old makeup. I'm pretty age makeup. Oh god, why Yeah,
it's not that bad, but mean, the makeup is not bad,
but I mean I was realized I thought that was
just an old man. But like Why wouldn't they have
just cast an old Anyway, I do love that Patrick
Wilson puts on old man voice. It sounds really connectors.

(11:15):
It's like, okay, we get it, you're old. I mostly
fast forwarded through those parts, but those are the worst parts.
You missed that so extraneous if they don't need to
be there. They had nothing. They had product placement. It
was like there Swarovski I think there was another one.
It was like another brand that existed in the eighteen Okay,

(11:37):
so the show takes place in the eighteen seventies, which
doesn't make sense because that was during the Franco Prussian
War and the opera was under siege. Not an opera,
but the shows like eighteen seventy one was like okay,
So in the movie, I think they bump it back
to eighteen eight or a time that made sense when
the novel took place. So I guess this one thing
the movie fixed, thank you, We're not much else, We're

(11:59):
the Andrew low Wepper was like, no, let's let's kick
it back another fifteen years. For whatever reason. Well, I
guess maybe it's like the dresses were cooler in the
eighteen than in the eighties. It's true. It's true though
I didn't like those bustles. But also this movie does
not abide by any manner of like I mean, there's
some that's more realistic, but there's sometimes there's like the

(12:21):
time that where Christine is wearing like a slip with
like a slit on the leg. You're just like, oh,
totally on the outside of my night gown. Yeah, I'm
just like, oh. Let's also I'm a singer, but I'm
in the ballet right, but you're not going to see
me do much of either, Like yeah, she okay, okay, sorry,
there's a spookie ghost Carlotta. She's like the prima donna diva,

(12:46):
like the star of all the opera is the only
person who knows what's a movie. She's in any different
things happen where she's like, I'm not gonna sing, or
she's you know, refusing to perform. So they're like, how
about this Christine girl? She can sing, but they're like,
how how can she s? I mean that's about what

(13:07):
I sounded like when I was seventeen, So okay, I'm
ready to beat the prematana of the premier French opera
is how old she is in the in the movie
when she's aged down in the movie, and I think
that Emmy Rossum was sixteen she was your age because
she kisses two old men in this movie. She kisses

(13:29):
two men far older than he. So she's like, yeah,
I can sing. Because it turns out she's been taking
singing lessons from a an angel of music, who she
thinks is her dead father's spirit, teaching her how to sing.
He is just like drenched in electric complex. Yes. Yes,

(13:50):
she thinks the ghost is her daddy. No, she thinks
that the ghost is an angel sits because so it's
basically as bad, but because as he as he lay dying,
she's like, I'm gonna send you an angel County, don't
worry like the panther. Somehow her other finds out about this,
and he's like, right, how does he know about that

(14:10):
and know about Maybe he was No, I don't know.
Maybe I don't know watching her dad died, I don't
know for a long Maybe he was in the walls.
Maybe he died in her dressing He tends to do
that her dressing room that she has by herself alone,

(14:31):
which is yeah, I mean when okay, that was another
part where I was like, Okay, is she supposed to
be in Carlotta's dressing room, but it looks like it's
all her stuff, and the phantom wouldn't have rigged Carlotta's
dressing room so that he could just appear wherever, like
a two way mirror that slides. Okay, but that rules,

(14:52):
to be fair, that rules, and it's a very exciting
stage moment, and I'm just like in the book it
was her dressing room. So yeah, she's such a big
dressing room. She's a teen orphan. They don't get nice
dressing room in France comes orphans. She can't sing, but
she is a teen in an orphanage. Good enough, Okay,

(15:14):
we'll put her corset on the outside of her clothes. Anyway,
we're about fifteen minutes where we have not got much further.
So she thinks this angel of music is singing to
her and teaching how to sing. Turns out this phantom,
who is real, approaches her and she's like, oh wait,

(15:35):
you're a man, but you're still my angel of music,
and they have a whole song about it. She has
no reaction to learning that he's a man. Does get
darker though, Sorry it gets very, very very smoky. It
does get Yeah, by the time she's in the gutter,
she is in full smoke. Ye. Like I said, the

(15:57):
further down she goes the smoky and it looks like
it looks like when I was thirteen and trying on
moms makeup for the first times, Like darker she there's
a lot of long shots of Emmy Ross. I'm just
like looking like she's basically falling a like mouth kind
of a dog. Yeah, And it's like, oh, that's what

(16:17):
love is, just tranced voice Yard Butler. So I didn't
realize that, Like this movie does a very bad job
I think of setting up that he's supposed to be
this like seductive and she's like, oh, I like that.
Like I did not realize that they were having like
a love story. Like it didn't really not good at

(16:41):
things right, It's almost like he's just laying on top
of that. Gerard Butler is doing an exceptionally bad job
of being seductive. Amy Rawsom is like sixteen and has
never gone outside, so she doesn't know how to look
like seduced. I guess, which is already gross. Why did
they cast a sixteen year old Anne Hathaway really wanted
the part to really and out the way who can
sing and was the correct age in two thousand five.

(17:03):
I think she would have done She would have done well,
and Heathway and Antonio Banders what could have done would
entire and this like didn't really launch anyone's career in
the way that I think the movie intended to. I mean,
we're Patrick Wilson's. Patrick Wilson's didn't get hurt, right, it

(17:24):
wasn't He wasn't actively harmed by I would I would
think perhaps that Emmy Rassam was maybe damaged by this.
I think she was like maybe on the rise and
then kind of stalled. She was in the Day after Tomorrow,
and then he went away until Beautiful Creatures switched yes myself, Yeah, yeah,
she was like the oh sexy older sister and she

(17:46):
just that looked his network on her well. And then
now she she's like relegated to TV and seems to
be doing well. But it's I feel for her this
week because imagine like having the rest of your life
affected by a mistake that didn't seem like a mistake
when you were sixteen. Sure, basically it's her teen pregnancy
so we're we're so he's like seducing her, and she's

(18:09):
kind of into it, question mark, I don't really know.
But he shows her this like wax sculpture he made
of her, of her in a in a wedding dress,
and she also has no reaction to that. She's just
like she passes out. She passes out because women be fainting, right,
I mean, that is so creepy out. But then after that,

(18:33):
when she wakes up to me, she does not have
an appropriate reaction to a creepy man whose face is
half hot and half under a mask making a sculpture
of her. And then she's just like, yeah, okay, you're
my friend. Now there's something not to jump to anyone's devans.
But she does think that he's like an angel. Yeah.

(18:55):
I think the tay she rips off the mask is
when she's like, oh, you're ugly. I guess you're not
an angel and can only be high. I mean, it's
it's just kind of confusing because when you like both
in the show and in the movie, from that point on,
you don't see her again until the opera, right, and
and then she runs to the roof like I'm really
scared Raoul, and he's like, don't worry, honey, it's not
it's not real. So I guess like at that point

(19:16):
where she kind of turns on him, but it's all
really implicit, and there's like, yeah, this story is so
clunky the more you look at it. But she okay,
So she meets him, she's like, he's an angel. He
made it a wax statue of me that we have
to assume he has sex with. There's no way there's

(19:38):
not a cavernous hole in that wax section. So anyways,
she wakes up and she's like, well, that happened. But
then he does start to behave more and more threatening
after that, where not that her reaction at any point
in this story totally makes sense, But if I'm remembering correctly,
she gets out and that's when he starts being like

(20:00):
you have to recast the show. And then he like
causes the fucking chandelier. Yeah it doesn't fall yet. That's
the funny thing about the chandelier freaking people out. It
has like has no consequence. It just kind of happened.
As far as we know, no one's hurt. He does,
so right, I'm thinking, I'm sorry I'm thinking of the

(20:21):
show because the show, it falls at the end of
act one, whenever he goes like, you will curse the
day you did not do all that the phantom masks
of you, and then he cuts the chandelier as a threat,
and then in the movie he just cuts it because
he feels like it because I forgot to do this.
We have it on. We have to justify the framing
device right exactly. But before that he has the guy

(20:44):
from the rafters and then everyone's like, oh, this is
a ghost to be reckoned with. By the time people
are dying, I'm like, okay, it makes sense for her
to be scared now, yeah, but then she still sort
of is and then sort of isn't throughout the rest
of the movie to the point where this is. This
is kind of the genius of the Lloyd Webber version
because this was the first version where they really play

(21:07):
up the she's kind of into it, and I think
that's also why I know that's why this is the
most successful version. Was like in the book, he's just
kind of like a creepy guy and she's never into it,
like she pities him, like in the Proto Pity and
Gollum kind of way, but like the second she sees
him and she's like oh, and then he's like sorry
because real looks like ship. Yeah, he's wearing the masks,

(21:29):
but he's just like, hey, um, I'm not an angel.
I'm a fifty year old man who's in love with you.
Come to my basement. And she's like, he's going to
kill and eat me. I have to just placate him
and do whatever he says it. So she does this
for like two weeks where she's like, no, you're great,
you're awesome. I think you're really nice. Looky the things

(21:51):
that women have to do. I'm not getting murder. Yeah,
And that's so then he lets he like after two weeks,
she convinces him and he's like okay, final, let you
go back into the opera. And then she tells Raoul
everything like oh my god, there's this creepy guy and
he's gonna kill me. And then he overhears it and
that's when he snaps and loses it. That makes more sense,
not happened in this In this movie, she's kind of

(22:14):
into it. Toxic. Yeah. Yeah, there's like moments where he's
like wrapping his arms around her and she's not like
I'm in a shampoo. There's there is a part and
this was my favorite part. I remember when I see
the movie when I was twelve, I was like, during
point of No Return, which is an insane number in
the movie, just looks like that. I like most of

(22:36):
the songs, but you should seem like, like I said,
like we watch the Royal Albert Hall version, be like, wow,
this is even better when people can sing. There are
random tango dancers there, there's but there's a point in
this version of it where Emmy Rosso looks like she's
straight up going to pass out again because she's so

(22:57):
turned on where they're like, you know the peak of
that song, it looks like her eyes are like fluttering.
It's like she's sick. Something someone give her. Also her
like straps of her dress falling off her shoulders and
she's like, I'm getting more and more naked as I
get so horny with this song. And then he I

(23:18):
skipped half of the movie, but who cares. It doesn't
make any sense and it's sucking, terrible the story but
nothing but any sense. Nothing, It really doesn't. It's amazing
how like that doesn't bother you when it's on stage,
because there's like I think there's just a lot more
suspension of disbelief inherent in the medium of theater totally.
So I think it's just like the bizarre plot holes

(23:40):
just kind of wash over you in the stage version
where in the movie version and they're just spectacularly glaring
because everything is literal. There's no sort of you know,
magical realism going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it really
emphasizes how much this story makes no fucking sense. And
it's just I mean, it's adapted really not well at all.
Like there's just there's things that could have been done

(24:02):
in this adaptation that would have made it transition a
little smoother, but it just didn't. And then there's like
weird moments where people are speaking dialogue that should be
sung but they're speaking rhyming diet. We're just like, why
aren't you There's like you're my bride that we don't
need to hide. That part of Masquerade drives me crazy,
where Patrick Wilson and talking to each other in the

(24:25):
music is still going right, I was like, why can't
you just Patrick Wilson can actually sing yeah, you get
any driver? Ironically the person who was dubbed right yeah
really yeah, alright. So the basic story is that there's
a guy who's a creep and he is gaslighting Christine
and she also is like in love with and being

(24:48):
gas lit by Raoul. Everyone's like, there is no phantom
and she's like there Izzy, if I don't know, he's
an angel, right, and then the Phantom gets more more
dangerous and threatening, and then by the end he is
like murdering people and like making these insane demands and
then he drops the shandeli around everyone, but no one

(25:11):
is hurt and it's fine, but that's like they're like, well,
this needs a consequence. I yess. It burns the opera
down and now there's no operation. And then he takes
Christine into his like swampement level apartment and had apartment
like that, and then Raoul goes to save her, of course,

(25:33):
and the Phantom's like, you either have to be with
me to save Raoul's life or I'll kill you both
or who knows what are And it's so funny, Like
I love the way that scene is shut, like he
just sneaks up behind role or like just walks up
to him with the noosy light here, but he'll still

(25:54):
he just like loops it over his head and then
like fastens him to a great. But it's just like okay,
so it's an news, which is the thing you could
hang people with. But he's like tied, tied, tied to
a great, So, um, is he just gonna strangle him
with the new like manually, like he's just gonna he
can't be hung he's tied to a great. Your video

(26:14):
the first time that was ever, I was like, oh, yeah,
there's no he's probably fine, Like maybe he's about to
pull out a gun and shoot him, but like the
pulling yankee at the rope, like that will eventually be.
I don't know why they did it because like in
the show, it's like a magical realism thing, like yeah,
throws the rope on him, and then the rope magically
kind of lifts, so he's actually being like you know,

(26:37):
that's so much a phantom of like let's just throw
something into fog. People just hate how this movie doesn't
commit to the magical realism. It's just like you either
do it or don't. Like I talked about like in
the show, because they had like the Jean Cocteau arms
in the movie, which is like the sort of like, oh,
I'm being seduced and being brought into this magical, mysterious world,
and they're like lifting this thing from Jean Coocto's Beauty
and the Beast, which are the these arms stick jutting

(26:59):
out of the wall and holding candles. And then they
never do anything like that for the rest of the movie.
It's just straight literal this. There's like commit to some
stuff like that sty glaring plot holes, you know, just
just at least, I mean, that's like the least you
can ask of Joel Schumachers, like commit to your bad choices.
But he doesn't do that in this one. This movie
could have been at least consistently fun and bizarre. Yeah,

(27:23):
but there it's just has to be serious, very disjointed.
The addition of the weird sword fighting scene, Well, the
sword fight leads to one of the talking points I
had about the treatment of women in the movie, which
is that so in that sword fight, and we see
this in a ton of movies where two men are
fighting over a woman. The men are fighting, the woman

(27:45):
is being fought four So it's like women are often
rendered just so passive in situations like the same thing
with like a woman having to be saved, like she
has to wait around to be saved by a man.
This isn't a huge component of this movie, but I
think it's worth mentioning that there was just like, well,
it's one of two major scenes where Christine is completely
sidelined as two men fight, Slash saying Slash argue about

(28:08):
her because it's that sword fighting scene where she's just
totally like literally watching like that that Quinn from Daria
being like, don't fight over me. Uh. And then and
then in the climactic scene to where dry Butler's like
I'm gonna make your boyfriend hurt and he's like he's

(28:28):
like it's okay, you know, and Christine's just standing there like, oh,
she has a little more agency in that scene because
she then kisses the phantom, who would argue that it
is such a crazy like I get, I don't know.
She's sidelined for the majority of that scene. And then
it's like how do I get out of here? And
if I give him a little kissy, let us go,

(28:50):
which you couldn't bank on working, but it does. It
works at this show. It doesn't show in the movie.
It's just like I just feel like rolls like tied
that great in christ Post, just looking on with confusion,
like what is this supposed to? What was anyone here? Well,
the kiss that she gives to the phantom to like

(29:11):
placate him ignores the fact that like she's just doing
this out of desperation, because she's like, my life's in danger, Roles,
life's endangered. I've been gasp by every fucking person in
this entire movie throughout the whole fucking story. I gotta
kiss this guy to like make him not murder people.
But the movie frames it is like big romantic, the

(29:31):
camera spin, this is not romantic, Like what are you doing? Movie?
There's a cinema talk John Matthison is swirling around this
swab filming an underage woman kissing Gerard Butler just bleak
in every respect. But like, yeah, the point I want
to make about so often in movies, this one included,

(29:52):
we see a woman taking a very passive role in
whatever's happening, just sitting idly by watching as two men
fight or a man has to stave her or whatever,
and it just sends a message that women can't do
things I guess, and then we as a society or like, oh,
women can't do things because I've never seen them do
things in media, so I don't trust them to be

(30:13):
able to do anything. I think more than anything, it's
just like Christine's character is like, oh, you just have
to take a lot of shit, like she'd takes ship
for this entire Okay, so if we're talking about I
don't know I relate to Christine card but like so
her as a character, she's set up as she misses
her father, her father was the main figure in her life,

(30:35):
and then we're presented with to father like figures who
are fun boys that she has to choose between, where
it's like, does she choose the dangerous ghost father committing
murders or is she going to choose the useless guy
who like walked right into a trap and never But
also is like pretty consistently like you're making this up.

(30:55):
It's fine, just stay with men in it, and and
is visibly older than her as well, so it's like
they're supposed to be the same age, So let's all
right because they were childhood sweethearts. Are they supposed to
because if they are the same age, unless like he
was seventeen and she was seven, which, honestly, in like
nineteenth century France, that was probably a thing, you know.

(31:16):
I mean, he's he's in the show. At least he's
supposed to be a year or two older than she is.
But but he has so many like successes. But he's
only supposed to be eighteen. Um, well, I mean Christine's
nineteen in the show, so he's supposed to be be one.
So I don't Again, I don't know why they age
Christine down. That does nothing for this movie. It just
makes it. Well, he's rich, but as it that, I'm

(31:39):
guessing he's an he's a navy officer, which is why
he like at the masquerade, he has his like naval
uniform on, so he's like a he's a vicomte, so
he like vicun died his way to the top of
the navy hierarchy, so he's like a sailor hot. So
Christine's like a girl with daddy issues who's presenting with
two daddy's and she has to pick one of them

(32:01):
because there has two daddies. I mean, I would actually
argue that I don't see Raoul as as a father figure. Really,
I think that in this movie, he's pretty consistently I
mean very least. Yeah, but I don't think she sees
her father in him. Okay, this or any of the
version at least that's kind of how I took it,
And that's why I guess in some ways he's less

(32:22):
appealing to her because she you know, she kind of
wants her dad back and so like, she has made
this association in her mind with the Phantom and her father.
But there's a level of security that comes with being
super Yeah, he got her scarf back. That's nice. Did something.
Speaking of that love triangle, I couldn't help but notice

(32:47):
that no time is spent developing the romance between Christine
and Raoul. They're like, oh, we knew each other as kids,
and now we're adults and we haven't seen each other
for years. I have that's what we're in love. We
have that big swell of romance number which is which
takes place right after the murder on the roof. I love.
I love that scene because it's like Bouque gets murdered,

(33:09):
he gets hung. She runs up to the roof and
she's like, oh god, oh god, oh god, it freaked out.
I know who did it He's gonna kill me, oh god,
and was like, don't worry, honey, it's fine, And then
like the clarinets of Romance start playing and they have
that big All I Ask of You number. They just
forgot about the killing, right, but it works, Like, yeah,

(33:34):
it just doesn't work here well, especially because he's just
like creeping around, like the pantroom is just like the
whole seed, hiding behind statues and it's just like we
don't need to like this was another like point that
I made the videos, like we don't need to know
he's here. Why do you keep cutting to him? What
is the emotion you're going for? Is it tension or

(33:54):
are we supposed to feel bad for him? Either way,
it doesn't work because this is supposed to be like
they're big row and obviously that you know doesn't stick
because like you you're like the when do they connect? Like, well,
it's there, but you don't realize it because the phantoms
like creeping around, pouting at the camera, and then in
in the musical, that's not what it is at all,
Like you don't see him just leering, you know, tiptoeing

(34:17):
around the stage, Like guys, it's there. It's there in
the Lawn Cheney movie. I always think it the Lawn
Chaney movie that's a reflection of the book. It's kind
of funny in the book because there's this one line
where that she's like telling role at about how ugly
he is, and then you had here this whale like
in that she lied to me and said I was

(34:44):
okay because I have her just because I kid not her,
and told her she could never leave damn it. Well
to the romance between Rale and Christine. This happens a
lot in movies where not I'm spent developing why these
characters would like each other or love each other, which
I think is a symptom of female characters just not

(35:06):
being well developed enough where they would just have a
personality or we would understand why the male lead, but
they're like, oh, well, you know, there's a man in
the movie, and he's got to have a hot lady
to be with. So here's this lady character, but we're
not going to do anything else to develop her, and
that I think it's so true for this movie. What
is Christine's character? She has no fucking personality. She's basically

(35:29):
just a singing voice and then she's barely that because
well we don't see her make a lot, like most
of things happened to her made for her right, And
this is you know, I think in this version more
than any of the others, which is kind of surprising
because it's like it being the most recent, big one
that got big enough to where there were no other
versions besides the Dario or Agento version, which I do

(35:53):
not recommend. I haven't seen it, don't see it. There
there's I mean, I think you can out on one
hand kind of the choices we see her actually actively making.
And we don't know that she necessarily has aspirations to
be like Carla. We know she takes music lessons and
that music is important to her. We don't know that,

(36:14):
but she's just forced out into this role. There's no Yeah,
there's no specific goal that she has that we know
about that we don't know. Yeah, but like that's the
thing that we should probably know for any protagonist, what
their desire is, what their goal is. But just kidding,
we don't have any idea in this movie. The first
choice that she actively makes in the movie is to
kiss him at the end. Yeah, because she chooses to

(36:37):
go she sneaks out to go to her dad's grave.
That's one choice to see her. But that's funny, Like
she's like, they're like Christine, and you have to be
in the show. The Phantom is forcing us to put on.
We had to be in his fan fiction opera, which
is literally he's like, I really love Don Giovanni, but
it's it's not serious enough. I'm going to make serious do.

(36:59):
It's called Done Want Triumphant, and it's gonna be about
how I'm really sexy and hot and all the ladies
want me. Don One doesn't go to hell in this version.
That's literally what it is. Like. It says it's his fanic.
So they're like, Christine, you have to start and the
Phantom is fan fic. And she's like no, they's seeing
where they're like in the chapel and she's like, she says,
like I'm scared, don't make me do this. He's like,

(37:22):
he's like, you need to do it. Fine, he's only
killed the one guy, and then he's like I'll be there.
It's like, who cares? But I think that the choices
here make She goes to her dad's grave, only to
be sidelined pretty much but at that point, she's still confused,
apparently about who the Angel of Music is because that

(37:43):
song happens again. Surely she knows that they're going again
for the magical realism thing that they don't commit to,
where he's got like some sort of like hypnotic power
over her. Doesn't make any sense when she when she
looks asleep, it's whenever she does the like you lazy
face thing, It's confusing if I didn't know Sarah Brighten face,

(38:06):
it is Sarah Brighten face. Yeah, just like the look
kind of asleep but kind of turned on. Like yeah,
so she she is not really inactive, not at all
protagonist at all. I'm like, I'm like having to suppress
my like my Christine stand like because I'm like, this
is absolutely true in the movie and in the show.
But I'm just like, but that's not how it wasn't

(38:26):
the book there, It wasn't originally like this, Andrew Lloyd,
we were changed it to make her more romance novel
hair when I guess, I don't know, I mean that
totally makes sense to make this romance work. If you
give Christine a more active role, it would probably fall
apart pretty quickly. Because the male if you established, if

(38:48):
you had just like established a desire for her where
she will like stop at nothing to become the lead
of the opera like the new Prima Donna or whatever.
That's her driving thing. And then this fan to man
comes along who's promising to help her with that. It
would make sense why she would maybe be seduced by
him and his promises and all that stuff and then
go along with it. But because we have no idea

(39:10):
what her specific goal is, it's insane that she's just like, oh,
I'm enchanted and hypnotized by his genius or what like.
It doesn't make any sense to me. In the show
and certainly in the movie, it's like the closest we
can get to boiling down a motivation has to do
with her dad or somehow like recapturing boring just bad writing,

(39:33):
but there, But like her motivation seems pretty closely tied
to her dad, which is just crazy. And in both
the book and the show, she's just kind of coasting
like she's studying music. Dad died. I mean, well, I
guess I'll keep studying music. He paid for it, right,
But it's like the never it's like, does she want
to be here, do we know? And then that brings

(39:55):
me to Madame Jerry, who I just thought about this
like the most recent time I watched it. Of like,
Madame Jerry's basically I mean, she's in charge of the ballet.
She's like the lead choreographer of the ballet, and she's
the mother to one of the only other female characters
who speaks, Meg Jerry, who is Christine's best friend. Madame

(40:16):
Jerry's basically subbing in as Christine's parent. But it's so clear,
like there's a few times in the movie where we
see Madame Jerry actively make sure that Meg stays away
from the phantom. Madame Jerry, we learn knows everything about him,
knows about grew up with him, right, which is an addition.

(40:37):
That's that's a new addition to the movie. And I
don't like it because you know, it's like, why does
he have a friend? It's not like it doesn't It
really kind of takes some of the like impetus for
him to be so desperate and you know, obsessed with
Christine if he just has like this, you know, emotional
support all these years in the form of Madame Jerry,
who's been kind of helping you and never FLEs poorly
on her character too, because it's like, oh, she knows everything,

(40:59):
and his letting this child communicate openly with this very
dangerous person while keeping her daughter like and we know
she knows he's dangerous because she's keeping her biological daughter
away from him at all costs. But then she was like, oh,
well she I don't know, what are you know, I'm
not going to get in the way he had a
bad childhood. Well, just that begs the question that was

(41:22):
let him have his fun. That's frustrating me this time.
I'm like, man, ma'am Jerry, you suck we totally. And
that also begs the question if I mean, it's established
with this flashback that she rescues him, has him live
in his you know, dungeon apartment or whatever, and then
so what's dungeon studio? I want to make more sense
that he was obsessed with Madame Jerry and like she

(41:44):
was the object of his affection because she liked him
Chase man, she's emotionally available and also, you know, women
over forties is not there for way before. He was
there for her for a little while, and he's like,
you've got too old. I made a sixteen year old also,

(42:05):
just like Miranda Richardson and Gerard Butler. So if they're
supposed to be the same age, then the phantom is yeah,
I mean he would be like, well into his right,
how old is he in the book, like he's he's
about okay, Madame Jerry though there this was the first time,
and then I was like, oh, they're the way that

(42:25):
she's portrayed this movie does not bode well for that
character because it's like, oh, she's a poor guardian, she's
very complicit, and the fact that murders are taking place,
and then the whole keep the hand at the level
of I was like, what does that mean? I mean
if your hand so you're supposed to do this, you
supposed to literally keep your hand next to your head

(42:47):
because the pun so his like weapon of choice, is
like he'll try to noose you, but if your hand
is up, you can't noose you, and you can push
the pun. So it's like it's like I think it's
supposed to be like a whip in the book, but
they just make it a literal noose in the show,
which is like I'm gonna noose you, buddy, like that's
not a very good, you know, offensive weapon. No, it's

(43:09):
like get a knife there, Okay. In the Phantom's apartment
swamp next to his action figure swamp apartment actual figures
and also in addition, a bizarre edition and that's unique
to this version, plays with dolls. Dolls. He lives in
basically the sewer because there's waters the lake. The bathroom situation.

(43:33):
Just go outside. Literally, I'm just like a part where
like they're standing in water, like I mean, like Phantom, No,
the thing is like the opera has a like a drainage,
Like that's what that is. So because that's not you know,
it's it's a very you know, it's a very large building,
and so like the foundation requires there to be like

(43:54):
a drainage lake. So he builds a house next to
this lake. In the book, it actually has like running
water electricity because he's just that smart. So like in
the movie, they just kind of make it like a cave.
That is like he kind of threw some dropcloths, you know,
on the cave and some candles we're going to call
sexy Schumacher. Where does he poop Schumacher. It's like that,

(44:18):
it's like that episode of Bras City that Amy Saidaris
is in and she was like, where isn't the bathroom? Oh, Schumacher,
have you guys seen Love Never Dies? No? No, I haven't.
I've like actively avoided it for a long time. Okay,
So there's like twenty versions because they like it's terrible

(44:40):
and they keep work shopping it. But in the like
Madame Jerry and Meg, yeah, in the sequel they have
they both have like really beefed up parts, and like
Madame Jerry is like the Red Herring bad guy because
like she's jealous because like turns out the phantom has
a kid from the one time he and Christine did
the do and they fucked. Yeah, they sucked. They sucked

(45:02):
after the musical in it, like she came back and
she's like, hey, let's do it, and he's like yeah,
and then they do it and then he's like, oh,
I can't handle it and leaves and they have this
this like what a funck boy followed around and Love
Never Dies where they sing about how they sucked this
one time and then they described it in song why
did this never make it to Broadway? And then and
then he kind of puts two and two together, like

(45:24):
we sucked ten years ago, you have a ten year
old and then like Madam Jerry's like, no, he's gonna
take our inheritance. But then at the end of the
show it turns out Meg is the bad guy. What yeah,
and she like kidnaps the kid and she's gonna shoot it.
It's so funny because like the Phantom is talking her down.

(45:47):
Like the show ends at the Phantom talking Meg down,
and then Meg accidentally shoots Christine and Christine dies yes, yes,
and the fans like, na, oh, well, I guess I
get the kid as a constellation prize. And then it
ends actually, well, have never died. Why I'm so attached
to Christine. Yeah, You're saying all this stuff about Christine,

(46:09):
and I'm like, you're not wrong. I'm really not wrong.
It's hard though, it's hard there, especially in this movie.
There's like because like I think there's also this sort
of like there's the discussion between overrepresentation of certain harmful
tropes and also certain harmful tropes that there is some
truth to you know, because you look at like the
story about this teenage girl that's just being led by

(46:30):
her nose by all these men and it's like, while
that is absolutely overdone, there's also a lot of truth
to that, you know, just like because that's just what happens,
especially in entertainment, you know, and because you see this
reflecting like the careers of so many like actresses and me,
Like I think of Kesha especially, who was just like
molded into this you know figure that wasn't her and

(46:51):
she didn't want to be and she they like you know,
created this public persona for her and she had to
live it for so many years. And the thing about Christine,
I think that's sort of like why I think we
both a little protective of hers, Like there is some
truth to this for sure, and you know that's sort
of like it's sort of like a both thing where
it's like, yeah, it's so lame that she's so passive.
But on the other hand, you know, that's kind of

(47:12):
what coming of ages for a lot of women figuring
out like, oh my god, I have to do something
and make a choice because women are not socialized to
be active, you know. So I guess like I think
a little more in the stage version, not too much,
not to like act like the stage version is superior.
It's really not. I mean, it is, but it's not
story wise Christine, you know, it's just sort of her

(47:34):
coming into her own is sort of like she does
it in the only way she knows how, which is
to play Kate the murderer and considering the time period
as well. Like, I totally agree with you, because and
and then it just becomes the duty of the storyteller
and the filmmaker to frame that correctly and not glorify
the wrong parts. I think that we could sort of

(47:58):
maybe draw a comparison to Twilight here, where it's like
a young teenager who you know, young women are going
to plug themselves into. I mean, I remember doing that
with Fantom of the Opera and Twilight and then seeing
a very like sort of dangerous relationship developed, but have
the movie be like, but this is right, and that's

(48:20):
why this or that's why Andrew Lloyd Weber's version, not
the movie the musical is the most successful version of
Phantom was because it was he was the one that's like,
let's frame it as really sexy and let's make him
really simple, you know, sympathetic as a murderer can be.
And it's just like, you know, when you take a
step back and you're like, well, it's no wonder this
is the one that took off, But what does that

(48:43):
say about humanity and their taste and things? So like,
while I would agree that Christine is I mean, she's
not making any choices, and any sixteen year old girl
would have more of a personality than she has, or
would at least on the adopting like let's be honest,
like and I you know, and she she was again,
she was too young for the part. I'm sure there

(49:04):
are sixteen year olds out there that could have pulled
it off. But I think also like it's kind of
a testament to bad directing, Like Schumucker is a notoriously
bad director, and part of directing is training because you
can see, like you can see the direction in the
way that she's acting, like because he's you know, telling
her like you're seduced, you're entranced, and this is like
really like so she's just kind of clearly reacting off

(49:26):
of these very basic good direction and that's why she
looks the way she does. And because I feel like
there's a lot you could do with that blank slate
if we had a better actor, right, it's very frustrating
to watch. She's really not that good in the movie. Man,
I was in chamber choir too. Yeah, I could have

(49:48):
been Christie. I can hit that high e Oh god,
Emmy Ross I'm playing that part the way she did
in a way that most teenage girls can sing. Or
it's just like you're deadly stating for talent shows for
the next several years. I'm just like, I can think
think of me like Emmy Rossum, of course you can't. Yeah,

(50:09):
where they're just like the h you know that really
her hitting the hind on and that one always sends
like a chill through my body because it's just not good.
And you know, it's funny how many fights I've been
in over that, like she's not good and they're like, well,
she's not supposed to be good. It's like voice of

(50:33):
an angel over here. It should not sound like a
gravel driveway, and the prima donna should sound better than
your high school chamber choir diva, Like right, holy no, no,
you don't get to pull that in this movie. Oh.
Another thing about those Christine and Carlotta is that Carlotta
is super jealous of Christine and they're sort of like

(50:55):
pitted against each other and like young hot women are
super threatening to older women. I feel like that's a
really it just perpetuate thing. It's just like perpetuate. I
want I want more of that because I think that's
really uh and creative. Let's see more of that. I've
been writing. It's really it's good. It's good writing, underrepresented
and it's good writing. Also, that was yeah, that was

(51:18):
I mean, that's not an addition that's unique to the
Lloyd Webber version. They've been like because like she didn't
really care about Christine in the book, but that that's
been there as early as the Lawn Cheney version, right
where she's very strange a better but it's like you're
the best one, like you're she's fine. Carlotta and Christine.
I think it's, you know, a little bit of a
virgin horror trope word. It's more like Carlotta is decadent

(51:41):
and conceded and how did she become And it's funny
because like everyone, like especially in the movie, they play
up that like everybody hates her because she's arrogant, but
it's it's just like a she's pretty madonna for a reason.
She puts butts and seeds and b she doesn't seem
to do anything to actively offend people. But there's that
sea where she's like, you know the Prima Dona scene

(52:01):
where she's like chomping out and everybody's like mooning her
and being like good riddance, and it's like, this doesn't
make any sense. Why does everyone hate her? She's kind
of the reason that people have a job like gos.
She's storming out again. Why why why are they acting
like this? I mean, well, to speak to all the
other female characters, they have just this little agency, I

(52:22):
would argue as Christine, because Meg basically does nothing. It
also bothered me that Christine whenever they were like, hey,
you should play Carlotta's part, and oh man, this is
what the phantom wants, so let's maybe do it, and
then she was never like, hey, wait a minute, let's
step back here for a second and like, maybe address

(52:43):
the problem of getting rid of this phantom rather than
just appeasing him for no fucking reason. Yeah, it was
crazy that they didn't have more of as a sixteen
year old girl, we probably should try to get rid
of him. It's just too dangerous, so let's just do
what he wants. That's like addressed several times of like
should we do to think about this? Like no, no, no, no, no, no,
you don't you don't do something about the fantaist. Do

(53:06):
you see the way he wiggles that chandelier A don't well,
And that's where like part of the function of Madame
Jerry's character is just every time someone offers a practical solution,
she's sort of just like, but you can't. And then
it's like, oh that. One of the last points I
wanted to bring up was the because we just did

(53:26):
an episode on be for Vendetta the Trump the kidnapping
slash re education true kidnapping exactly, Yeah, yeah, kidnapping with
the intent being that I'm going to teach you and
you're going to be mine. And then you know, just
like uh, he's listening. I gave you music, you belong

(53:47):
to me, you owe me something, you owe me your
body and your talent and your presence, and it's just like, ah,
why are you falling for this? Right? And it's you know,
obviously done to a very selfish end. It barely has
anything to do with Christine at all. It sort of
seems like where he just you know, wants companionship and
wants hot companionship, and he should just fuck his wax doll.

(54:13):
I mean he for sure does, but he for sure
does that doll. Let's watch like smell the ngeled Phantom come.
Speaking of other other movies, I would argue that there
is a Titanic illusion in the beginning of Phantom, where

(54:36):
there's the big field, bear with me, Bear with Me.
There's a of the of the chandelier, and then that
all of a sudden is back. We're going to transition
into the it's so bad but whenever everything is like
dusty and shitty, and then it transitions into shiny look

(54:57):
at these yeah, statue nipples. That I think is a
direct allusion to when I'm Titanic, when there's a shot
of like the old, gross, grimy underwater Titanic and then
it fades into this like schumachers, like work for them,
let's try it. There's also a sweeping romance. Yeah yeah, sure.

(55:19):
Does anyone have any other final thoughts about the movie
The Phantom of the Opera. I think that the two
people who do very well in this movie are many
drivers great. I think Patrick Wilson escapes unscathed and does
as well as anyone could do in this movie. I'm
also just like Patrick Wilson. He's good, but his characters, Yeah,

(55:43):
he's a he's a bland man. How about that he's
kind of pushy and I don't care for him. What
about that scene whenever she's sleeping in her room, gets
up and then goes to the cemetery and he's just
like sleeping outside of her room. Why is he doing?
Is he's looking? I guess he's like yeah. But that's
that's why I would argue that that's a choice, because

(56:04):
she sneaks past him, n't ask for permission before she
she does make an active choice in that she doesn't
really choose to rip his mask off. I forgot about that.
Oh that is true, But again it makes a lot
more sense. In the book, she does specifically tells her
don't do this, so she's like, I think you've got
to do that. Yeah, I think I will actually get

(56:28):
any sixteen year old girl thing to do, like, oh,
you told me not to do that thing, Okay, But
in the movies, both times it happens, it feels so unmotivated,
like why is she doing? I also love the way
it's like shot where he's just kind of like piano
like ducking his head back and forth. And I mean
it's really funny at the show because she like reaches

(56:49):
and he'll kind of like duck away like to write
something that's good stuff. They're revealing the movie so funny too,
because it's like it's not that bad. Yeah, I don't know.
I feel like because I say, like, definitely watch the
Live at the Royal Elbart Hall version. It used to
be on Netflix. Um, I think maybe it still as
might be like on Amazon or something now because I
watched it with one of my more cynical friends who

(57:11):
had seen the Schumacher movie and that was all he
had ever seen, and like after he left at that
it was just like, you know what, I get it.
It's not for me, but like I get the Phantom
thing again because it is. It is honestly, like kind
of impressive how much the movie fails to capture what
worked about the show, even though it doesn't really change
much about the story. I am just gonna go home

(57:32):
and watch um Mulan Rouge the only musical I like,
and South Park bigger, longer than on Cut everything else.
I hate musicals. Hey, let's talk about whether or not
the movie passes the Bechtel test. Okay, I'm going with no. Yeah,
I don't think so either. There is a scene early
on when Christine talks to Meg, but they're talking about Raoul.

(57:54):
She's like, we were childhood sweethearts. He called me little
Bloodie or whatever. I Then later on they have a
song where Christine and Meg sing to each other and
Christine is telling her about the Angel of Music, but
they're talking about who she perceives to be a man
who is sent Yeah, but she at this point doesn't

(58:16):
know who he is and seems to never figure it
out through the entire movie. There's a brief exchange between
Madame Jerry and Christine. Oh, this is no it does
pass because this is after her first performance where she
takes Carlotta's place and Madame She's like, yeah, like you did,
you did very well. He's very pleased. Madame Jerry is
now my least favorite character in this entire Madame Jerry

(58:39):
is just a whitewash because even that character in the
original novel was a Persian guy who was never in
any of the adaptations. Even in the Launcheney movie, they're
like Psych. He's not actually Persian, he's a French guy.
I love that reveal of like, actually they were white
the whole time, like in the Hunchback. Yeah, she's she's white.

(59:00):
It's cool. Yeah, this isn't like a hundred percent white.
I don't think you see any people of color at
any point, which is funny because in the original book
that was not the case. There you see some non
white people in the Phantom flashback, but they're the portrayal
is not good. We're like, ha ha, you're gross. They

(59:22):
were it was like the circus was run by Roma,
right right, Yeah, I think that's also there and all
of them, some of them. There's one book that like
I despise in every Phantom every other Fantom fan loves,
called Just Phantom by Susan Kay and it's in the
romance novel section. And for you, I know you're out
there getting mad. I could feel you're anger. I don't
care like um Boy because like during his time with

(59:48):
the you know, they used the g slur the Roma
they like kidnap him, putting into circus and there's one
named Javert who like tries to rape him and it's Wolf. Okay, Well, Okay,
so that's a hard no. Yeah, oh they love it.
The girls love it so much. Yeah, I don't. I

(01:00:09):
mean if women talk in the movie, they're always talking
about either Rale or her daddy or the phantom. I
don't think there's an exchange about something that's not any
of those people. So does not pass the test unsurprisingly. Um,
let's write the movie on our would actually say surprisingly,
but musicals are usually a lot better about that. Yeah,

(01:00:33):
and also no shortage of opportunity, even like from an
adaptation point, like we never hear any of the many
female dancers we see all the time, any of female
chorus members, and they were missed opportunities sort of scattered.
When I say unsurprisingly, I mean more that this movie
is not good to women or does not portray them

(01:00:53):
in a strong specifically to Oh, he sure doesn't have
dark guys at a right right. Put the corset on
the outside, Captain Underpin, you're bad. Um let's write the

(01:01:17):
movie on a nipple scale, where we rate the movie
on a scale of zero to five nipples based on
its portrayal of women. I'm gonna give it, I'm gonna
say a half nimble because hey, great, that there is
a woman in the story, even more than one, there's several,
so that's pretty much the only positive thing about it.
Apart from that, it's a movie about a young woman,

(01:01:41):
again being gas lit by every person around her, being
seduced by an old creep. She is the object of
his affection emphasis on object because she's really literally he
literally objectifies her in the real like he turns her
into object. Yeah. So, and there's a dress and she

(01:02:06):
h she fainted and then she wakes up and she's like, actually,
I could see myself hanging out with him again. Yeah,
he's my angel of music. It was just a bad
first impression, right, yeah yah yeah yeah yeah. So that
and then her having no agency, no specific desire in
the story, despite the fact that she's supposed to be
the protagonist of the movie, the character that we're you know,

(01:02:28):
rooting for and plugging ourselves into and all that stuff,
we have no idea what she wants. We hardly see
her make any active choices or do anything. Decisions are
either made for her or she just does fucking nothing
and just stands by and watches. And then all the
other female characters are similarly useless. Therefore, one half nipple.
It belongs to the shiny um golden statue nipple that

(01:02:52):
we see in this I just want to draw a parallel.
But between h Christine meeting the phantom and then meeting
someone that you met online. He's like talking through the
wall and she's like he sounds great. He says, oh,
he's nice. He thinks I'm so pretty, and then you
meet him. He was like, he's a murderer. Dolls. But

(01:03:20):
you know, then you see them, You're like, oh, for
sure you have a sword collection. For sure, you fucked dolls.
I don't want to hear about your katanas, sir. That's
I can think of three different examples of like going
to a man's house for the first time and being like, Okay,
there's a sword. I better just see myself out. Yeah,

(01:03:40):
hard to pass. I'm gonna. I'm sorry. I'm gonna given
of the amper two thousand and four dranted my jewel shoemaker.
Did you give it any more than zero nipples? I'm
gonna be furious. I'm gonna give it two nipples. I'm
gonna do it, and I don't. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
I'm sorry. First of all, I'm sorry. You know what,
I'm sorry. I'm not sorry. I'm not sorry because Okay,

(01:04:05):
Madame Jerry, especially in this movie, Garbage really like upset
with her Meg nothing to do, We we don't know. Carlotta,
I think, is a good character who's mistreated by the story,
is particularly in this adaptation where she's just receiving abuse
from angry poor people confusing. Um. So I like Carlotta,

(01:04:29):
and I do like I think that Christine sort of
in this movie in particular, uh and and in the
stage adaptation, suffers from the same thing that Bella Swan
suffers from, where she is a very clear figure that
a young audience can plug themselves into sort of reacts
to a lot of things, I think, and not too
dissimilar to a way a teenage girl would. But then

(01:04:52):
all the bad things that are happening to her are
framed as good things, are romantic romanticizes her being like
just give it, just oh, and even to the abuse
the first you're gonna want to marry them, you know,
Like so it sucks to see not realistic, but like
a clear avatar that people can plug themselves into, have

(01:05:14):
all the bad ship that happens to them framed as like,
oh yeah, I just give up. That's fine. But I'm
I'm I gotta give it two nipples. I have to,
I have to. Well, then I take back my happen
and I'm giving it zero just when we averaged out.
It's just like worse than so many of the movies
that we've seen them. That's what I'm thinking. It's like,

(01:05:35):
what is the scale here, because if it's not a
scale of all movies, you know, right where it's like
there's so many. Maybe I'm biased because I hated this
movie so much, for sure, but there's like I mean
I feel like if this movie is zero nipples, then
Twilight would have to certainly. I think I gave Twilight
pretty close to zero nipples. I mean we didn't give
it a lot. I gave Transformers. I think zeros like yeah, yeah,

(01:05:59):
that's right. I don't know because like to me, zero
nimbles would be like Transformers three, you know, like, because
I'm just like compared to that, I'm like, woit, this
is pretty good, you guys. I don't know what you're
talking about because I watched a lot of Transformers, which
is a great series. Check. Oh yeah, the whole place,
the whole place my serious about film theory and Transformers

(01:06:21):
very good. It's great, lots of lots of things I
had certainly never thought about it regards to Transformers. Think
about Transformers a lot. I think on the scale of
movies we've covered here, it certainly does not do well.
But I don't know. I mean, I think we're biased
in opperst directions. I'm certainly biased in wanting to give
it more nipples than it deserves because I love it.

(01:06:43):
Phantom rules. I'm going to see it again. I'll see
the movie again. I'll see the stage adaptation again. But
I recognize that, you know, feminist icon Phantom of the Opera.
I think not no, no, no, no, two nipples. Christine
gets the nipples right. Yeah again, And for aforementioned reasons
where if like zero is Transformers three, I'm gonna have

(01:07:04):
to go with two and a half for reasons that
you outlined, Like Karlotta, actually no, I'm gonna go back
down to two because I feel like stage show, I'd
give more because Carlotta doesn't receive that and just abuse
and like is a little more. I mean, there's a
lot of strange decisions in that. But you know, I
think the fact that Christine is just sort of like
a cipher in this or you know, as a huge disservice.

(01:07:25):
But at the same time, it's like, man, there's a
lot of really bad representations out there on the grand scheme.
I'm like, it's better than Twilight. It is better than
a Twilight. I don't know. I think it's about around
the same. Really. I feel like that ending though, because
like she she ends up with Edward, she does not
end up with the Phantom, right right, But then she

(01:07:45):
ends up with Raoul, who had also been gaslighting her
and like being all weird, and he's like, you're a woman,
so I need to protect you. And also there is
no Phantom of the Opera, you're crazy. But also the man.
Give the man some room to you know, be wrong.
He can't be perfect and have room to grow. It
changes my view of Rowl a little bit. That they're
supposed to be the same age. I think that that's
another sort of thing that is almost never true in

(01:08:08):
the stage version or and certainly not in the movie version,
where they never appear to be the same age. In reality,
if they are, you know, suspend your disbelief. Patrick Wilson
an Emmy rosmore the same age. Sure that makes role
a little more palatable. I mean I still don't like
the character. And yeah, because like there's no there is
no role fandom in the grand like everyone, there's no

(01:08:30):
team role. There's it's funny. Well, gang, that was a
fan of the opera episode. I hope you liked it.
I am so glad we did it. Yeah, I really
thank you for joining us, thank you for having me,
and of all the topics, I'm glad it was this one.
And where where can people find you online? Well, I

(01:08:52):
like on YouTube, it's my name on YouTube is just
my name is Lindsay Ellis. You can also find me
on Twitter at at the Lindsay Ellis awesome. Yeah, you
can follow us on all the platforms Twitter, Instagram, Facebook,
everything at Bechtel Cast. You can donate to our Patreon.
If you do, it's five dollars a month and you

(01:09:13):
get to bonus episodes a month of the podcast. Yeah,
you can go to patreon dot com slash becktel Cast
to do that. We strongly encourage it because it helps
with our production costs and then we have great bonus
episodes for you guys, the fans with pH I love it.

(01:09:33):
I love it. Also, you should go to our live show. God,
oh my words, oh heavens to Betsy. Wait, what is
Kathy Bates and stripes? God, almighty, God, Ald God Almight.

(01:09:53):
What we're trying to say is that we have a
live show in Los Angeles. We sure do at the
Nerdus Showroom at Mailtdown Comics. Yeah, we're sitting on top
of it right now. It's on Saturday, December two at
seven pm. Yes, we have a guest. Her name is

(01:10:14):
Debora di Giovanni. You know where you love her. She's
one of our most popular episodes of all time. Love actually,
but this time we're talking with her about Die High,
a Christmas movie that's dripping with masculinity. Oh, we cannot
wait to and scream. So if you're in so cow Baby,

(01:10:34):
check it out. Can't say baby, dude, it's so cowed
baby rock on surfers and also longboards. Yeah, that's what
they say every time they talk about the area we
call a so cow Baby. So if you're there in
that area, please come to our live show. Um tickets

(01:10:57):
only ten dollars, and if you do come bring some
feminine hygiene products because We're going to donate them to
an organization called Project Caged Birds. They do a lot
of help with like victim advocacy of intimate partner abuse,
So we love that organization. So please, yes, bring something
with you and come to the goddamn show. You're gonna

(01:11:18):
have a blast. It's gonna be We've got a special,
we've got a lot of treats planned treats. You might
get a free movie ticket out of it. Not to
spoil anything, but we talked about it yesterday and this
time we made a plan. So hot brags we are.
We're trying up here. We're prepared. Can't wait to try

(01:11:39):
up your Season two Saturday, December second. Yeah, see the
fine