The Shining with Corie Johnson

Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Corie Johnson go into Room 237 of the Overlook Hotel to have a little chat about The Shining. 

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone, Hi. Just a few quick announcements at the
top of the show for some upcoming live shows, and
here they come. First, we are doing a live show
in l A on November nine at The Ruby and
we are covering Home Alone with guests tomorrow Yegiah, She
is the Best, awesome, And this is our last show

(00:22):
at that location because the Ruby is moving to a
different spot. So you don't want to miss this show.
It's very special and it's the last time we're doing
a live show at that specific spot. And if you
don't come, we'll set an eleborate booby trip and you
be upset. Also, because today's episode is Colorado adjacent, we
want to say we are coming to Colorado specifically Denver.

(00:45):
Ever heard of it? So we're gonna be co headlining
a few stand up shows on November six when at
nine pm, when at ten thirty, they're both at Bar Max.
The nine pm is very close to selling out. To
be sure to come to one of those. Also on
November seventeen, the next day, we are doing a live
becktel cast show at the Buntport Theater in Denver. We

(01:06):
are covering the Santa Claus. Oh my god, I'm so
excited with special guest Grace Thomas. The Elf is hot,
so if you live in the Denver area, please come out.
We would love, love, love, love love to see you
and Grace is incredible. So yeah. Tickets and details for
all of those shows Denver and l A are on

(01:26):
becktel cast dot com and click on the live tab there.
Enjoy the episode on the beck dol Cast. The questions
asked if movies have women in them, are all their
discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism
the patriarchy zef invest start changing it with the beck
del Cast. Hello and welcome to the becktel Cast. My

(01:50):
name is Caitlin Dronte who It's love. That's my very
clever way of people pay me to do this. Okay,
my name is Jamie Loftus. Oh sorry, and this is
the Bectel Cast podcast about women in movies. That's right. Yes,

(02:11):
we used the Bechtel Test as a jumping off point,
which is a media metric created by cartoonists out also
called the Bechtel Wall List Test. Scary. It is very
scary because what it is. It's a media metric that
requires that two female identifying characters with names talk to

(02:35):
each other about something other than go who is a man? Oh? Man?
This is electric? Feel my blood at the surface of
my skin. Can we demo the test? Yeah, let's do it, Hey, Jamie,
All work and no play makes Caitlin a dull woman.

(03:02):
I'm gonna hit you with the bat. It's violent, but
it passes unlike well, actually, can we say that unlike today?
But if someone was just like, oh, they spoiled it
at the beginning, that's my favorite criticism of our podcast.
We're like, oh, they said it at the beginning, So
why would I keep fucking listening. I'm like, I guess

(03:23):
you're just not the demo? Wait have people had that criticism?
I read all the iTunes reviews. Please please leave a
nice one. Please do please leave a nice this Halloween season.
Please pay be kind, be kind to each other this Halloween.
No tricking or the only treating just for us, Just
treats us. Please. But yeah, we're talking about the shining

(03:46):
today and we have an incredible guest. We certainly do.
She is a comedian, she's hilarious. We love her. She's
about to move to New York City. Ever heard it?
So we had to get her on before she moves
New York. Let's here. He's welcome her with open arms.
It's Corey Johnson, welcome here. I'm here, red Rum, red Rum,

(04:11):
It's red round season. It's no, it's not. Don't don't
read round each other. Okay, so we're talking about the
Shining Stanley Krubrick. Yes, Corey, what is your history relationship
with the movie? Have you read the book? Read the
book so I could understand the movie in general and

(04:34):
just compare them. I like the book better but than Also,
the cinematography of the movie is really amazing, vibrant, captivating,
and it's just you said, nineteen eighty. I don't know
how he still looks Jack nicholsonce it looks so old?
Am I talking about the wrong movie? No, it's like
I was. I was thinking the same thing. I was

(04:56):
just like, how old is he in this movie? And
he's like in his forty looks like but he looks
like hell. Look but maybe that just means he's doing
a good job job. Yeah. I don't think that was
to a compliment. She looks like hell. But you know, Jacky,
Jack's going to hear this and he's going to be livid.
So Jack has and I mean to tell you this
that Jack contributes to our Patreon and it really gives

(05:19):
that five dollars, so we really need it. Times are tough. O.
My bad, didn't know. I didn't get the Sorry Jack,
Sorry Jack, Sorry Jack. I'm sorry Jack. There's actually this
is a bit of a tangent at the beginning. Cancel me,
but friend of the pod, Mary Hulihan just wrote a
very funny show that people should see if they're in
the area. She's New York based, but it's called Me

(05:40):
and Jack and it's this fictional account of how she
dated Jack Nicholson. But Jack Nicholson is too busy playing
is PS four to pay attention. It's really funny, all right, Yeah, honestly,
that sounds good. It's very Jamie asked, that's something up
Jamie's alley, and that's really good. The grin on Jamie's
face right now, I cannot explain. I'm still laughing filing. Okay,

(06:05):
So you read the book in the movie a couple
of times. I like the movie. I don't know what
else to say. Shelley Duval's teeth um will be licked
by me one day. She's alive, right, very cool. I
tweeted about it so sad to say it. That's the rule.
What's your history with that kid? I have not read

(06:27):
the book, which makes me nervous to talk about this movie,
in particular because I feel like I don't know Stephen King.
Heads out there are like Stephen King. And then when
we do a movie adapted from a book and you
know every What I'm trying to say is, listeners, remember
that we're not a book podcast. We're not an adaptation podcast.

(06:50):
I still am suffering from whiplash from Lord of the
Rings over a year ago, where I'm just like, listen,
it's a free podcast, take it or leave it, Okay, Relax.
So I have not read the book. I have seen
the movie a fair number of times I would say
probably like six or seven times throughout my life. And
I like it. I like it. I did not. I

(07:13):
did not see that coming. I did not mean to
say it like that, embarrassed, but I do enjoy to
the movie. You have not pronounced anything correctly. The day
Pin Milan, I was getting so nervous because we have
to say you and McGregor seriber. I'm sure I pulled

(07:38):
out that last one. I want, Well, clearly, I'm up. No,
it's adorable, but you're a fan of the movie, yes, okay.
I saw this movie on my first day of college.
I had like a cool college roommate who was like,
there's a little movie theater I know about in the
corner of Boston. And I was like, how, like we

(07:59):
just out here, But she just had that like cool
person instinct, and she found a screening of The Shining
and I went. And I went to college with no
knowledge of like cinema per se. I've seen a lot
of movies, but I hadn't seen much cinema. Um, and
I really liked it, and it was like it became

(08:21):
one of my faiths for a little while. I've like
seen the documentaries and then Room two three seven. I
had to stop because it made me so furious. It
was yeah, and then and then uh and then In
recent years, I have like I learned more about Stanley Kubrick.
Don't ask me, I already made fun of you and

(08:42):
I don't even notice I, you know, dragged me. But
I've learned more about him. I've watched documentaries about him specifically,
I've watched him of his older stuff and now I'm
just like, it's a beautiful movie, but I don't love it. Sure, Yeah,
let's dive into the recap. Shallby Yes, you can interject
in the recap and them's the rules absolutely all right.

(09:02):
So Jack Torrence played by Jack Nicholson, he gets a
job looking after this huge hotel, the Overlook Hotel, which
is nestled into the rocky mountains, and he needs to
look after it over the winter when they close because
of the harsh weather. Right because and this is in Colorado,

(09:26):
r Colorado. Yeah, I had no idea. Who was Thank god,
it's the rare Stephen King that doesn't take place in Maine, right, interesting,
and it's very secluded, it's very isolated. The opening sequence,
they're driving this might not be funny in anyone but me.
They're driving through the mountains to get there or whatever.
And the YouTube video that they used to have back

(09:47):
in the day where the cars driving and then they
scare you. You know, I'm talking about literally infamous. It
looks just like that, and I was like, do I
turn it off? I was really stoned, but it was like,
do I turn it off? I didn't realize until i'd
seen the shining like three times that that's the clip
that you're it's like, watch the car. I'm pretty sure

(10:08):
it is, or it's like a very similar car, and
then the devil comes out and it's like, so someone
like edited in like a scary thing Halloween energy. Now
that you're saying it, it might be an as on commercial.
Really think it's like a Red Knee sun Ultimate, But
it's fine. I think we can consider this relevant discussion. Yes,

(10:29):
I think so. So. The manager of the Overlook Hotel
tells Jack about this winter caretaker from a few years ago,
and he's like, just so you know, he did acts
murder his wife and two young daughters. But Jack is like, so,
don't worry that won't happen to me, because I love

(10:50):
being alone, he says. He's like, no, I got this.
I like being this alone. Yeah. Yeah, because he's going
to be there working on a writing project. That's what
tempts him about taking this job where he's going to
be in isolation, but he will be there with his family,
um his wife and his wife Wendy and Yell and

(11:13):
their young son Danny also named Danny. Lloyd plays Danny,
so really one to ones with the character names. Although
Mr Hallerand's name is not Scatman Cruthers, which is it,
Which is a shame. It should Karacter should just be
called scat Man Cruthers. Yeah, why make it easier for

(11:33):
Jack and Danny and the rest of the cast has
to remember a different name. It's almost like they have
to act upsetting. So the thing about Danny is that
he's got this kind of like imaginary friend question mark Tony.

(11:54):
I thought maybe Tony Shalhub. Oh, that'd be fun that
Tony going to a little therapy, says inside of Danny's mouth,
it's Tony Bennett. And that's canonically the Sopranos takes place
inside of Danny Tarnth's mouth. That's what happens at the end.
They pull out, like at the end of Ben and
Black when they just like when into the world is

(12:15):
the galaxy is just like a marble. It's the same
they do. Don't stop believing, and then it cuts to black.
But if you keep watching, it zooms out's mouth. So
he's got this person Tony who lives in his finger
or his mouth, but he talks to his finger. But

(12:36):
it all also might be this like kind of clairvoyant possession,
which we'll learn about a little later on. So the
family arrives at the hotel and they're shown around. Mr
Halleran A. K. Scammon Cruther's shows him some stuff and
then creepy ship starts happening right away, like Danny sees
the ghost of these two little girls. Danny also has

(12:59):
this psyche connection with Mr Hallowran and he is like, hey, Danny,
we have this connection. I also had it with my grandmother.
She called it The Shining and we're like, hey, that's
the name of the movie. You're like, and that's why
they call it that. And when you're get excited, then
you're like, I'm in here, I'm I'm in and then
it kind of never comes back, like the word name

(13:21):
checking the way early. And I do like that actually,
because when it's towards the end of the movie, like
they try to make money, you're going to say, and
that's one million ways to die? Does that happen in
that movie? No? No? If that was the last line
of the movie. Loose Day Today. Okay, So Danny and

(13:52):
Mr Hallyrand have this whole conversation about Tony and how
he shows Danny things and how the overlook hotel is
messed up and bad things happened there, and then Danny
asks about Room two thirty seven and Mr Halloran's like,
nothing happened there, everything's fine, and don't go in that room.

(14:12):
So a month passes and the family has settled in.
Jack is trying to figure out what to write about relatable,
and then he's doing a packet. He's literally he's applying
to court him and he's like, oh my god, I
can't think of any web segments that it's hard. Monologue

(14:33):
jokes are hard. His niche humor you. So then Jack
also seems a bit stir crazy because he's like flinging
a tennis ball against the walls so hard, so so hard,
so loud, and like, I don't have it was stressing
me out. That was like every single time they armed

(14:54):
power that man has anyway, just in observation, it comes
back with that. Yeah, they're sitting it out up. Yeah.
And then there's this enormous hedge maze that Wendy and
Danny walk through for fun, you know, and we're like, oh,
they're setting it up, planting payoff baby. Then Danny rides
around on his big wheel through the hotel and then

(15:16):
he rides past Room two three seven, and he's like,
hikes scary, but then he rides away and it's a coward.
He's a coward. Is at this point when Jack starts
being especially emotionally abusive and his mental state is starting

(15:38):
to unravel. Really the second people leave, he drops the
act and becomes an abuser. Yes, we'll talk all about it.
It starts to snow outside. The phone lines go down,
so Wendy radios the I think it's like the Parks
department nearby or something. Yeah, some of some like vague,

(15:58):
unhelpful and identity and they're like, yeah, the phone lines
are going to be down to spring. So then Danny
sees the ghost twins again and they're like, can't play
with us, Danny, forever and ever and ever, and then
all that poor little Katy looks so scary. He's so
scary because he also has sees a vision of them

(16:21):
having been as murdered and the halls are all bloody
and he freaks out, understandably so, and Jack is getting
even creepier and more unhinged. He tells Wendy about a
Nightmary had where he killed her and Danny and chopped
them up into little bits. Then Wendy notices some bruises

(16:43):
on Danny's neck and she thinks that Jack hurt their son,
and Jack is like, I don't know, right, And then
at this point we already know that he's like hit
Danny in the past, because he goes to the Gold
Room to blow off some steam, because it's like this
lounge e bar area, and then all of a sudden

(17:04):
there's a bartender there, and there's also a whole party
going on that's a little later, but there, and Jack
tells this bartender, Lloyd, about this one time when he
lost his temper and accidentally hurt Danny a few years ago.
Jack Nicholson is great in that scene. It is so scary. Yes,

(17:24):
his performance overall is quite stunning. I'll say, wow, what
can I say? He's our biggest fan. He loves us.
It's true. He gives us five dollars every month, sixty annually.
So Wendy comes running in frantically to the room and
apparently there's this lady in one of the rooms who

(17:47):
tried to strangle Danny. Jack's like, what room is it?
And then he goes into it and guess what it's
room to thirty seven and there is a young naked woman,
so he naturally starts to make out with her. Because
you're not like confused or why is she here? How
did she get here? You go, oh, she's naked, and

(18:08):
every young naked woman wants to make out with Jack Nicholson.
But then as they're making out, she turns into like
a rotting zombie lady, as also happened as well. Yeah,
I mean well, yeah, older women have to be associated
with body horror, just like Justasha. So Jack freaks out,

(18:34):
but when he goes back to tell Wendy about it,
he's like, I didn't see anything, not a goddamn thing,
and she believes and she well, she's like, how did
this happen? What about Danny's bruises? And Jack's like I
think He's like, I think Danny did it to himself.
And Wendy is freaking out and she's growing increasingly concerned

(18:59):
about the safety of her and her son and she
wants to get Danny out of there. And Jack does
not like this idea, and he yells at her and
he storms out, and then this is when Jack goes
back to the banquet hall and it's not full of
people who are like ghosts question Mark from the nineties, right,
and one of them is Mr Grady. He was the

(19:22):
caretaker who acts murdered his family. And Grady's like, no,
that's not me, Mr Torrence, You're the caretaker. By the way,
your son is being meddlesome and like you should put
him and your wife in their place. Meanwhile, Danny is
trying to telepathically communicate with Scatman brothers to get help,

(19:45):
and Mr Hallerand is like trying to reach the hotel
by phone but he can't get through. Meanwhile, Jack dismantles
the radio and then Mr Hallyerrand flies across the country
to try to get to the um, but the snowstorm
keeps like dumping down snow everywhere. Mr Hollern is the

(20:07):
realist for almost no read like the shining things like
well that kid, he knows the sordid history he was in,
like Miami, yeah he was in Florida, goes a long way, yeah,
spends all that money on a plane ticket. Just a
good man, is uh So. Then um, Wendy finds the

(20:34):
manuscript that Jack has been working on all this time,
and it's famously pages and pages of all work and
no play makes Jack a doll boy. It's a cordon packet.
That's my cord back the corn and packet I turned in.
You know what, I'm staffed. Congratulations, I got it. He

(21:00):
I got wow. Congratulations. Um. So, then Jack approaches her
as she's like looking at his incredible comedy writing, and
at this point he is completely unhinged and he's screaming
at her. She's terrified of him. She's swinging a baseball bat,

(21:21):
she's defending herself. Good. She manages to hit him on
the head, and then she drags his unconscious body to
the kitchen and then locks him up in like this
pantry storage room. I liked how obvious it was that
they used to stunt Jack because they cut all the
way away like Jack. Jack Nicholson was like, I'm not
even gonna start to fall, and then cut the stunt

(21:44):
Jack who like eats ship and dowstairs. And then you're like,
and there's Jack again, who gently walked down the stairs
and laid laid himself down. So then she goes outside
to the like snow cat snowmobile vehicle to try to escape,
but Jack has cut the wires and the tubes and everything.

(22:06):
So she's trapped there and Danny is yelling about red Rum,
which spoiler murder backwards. Okay, you didn't have to ruin
that for jesus. Sorry, sorry, it's like telling you who's
the masked singer. You simply don't do it. Forgive me,

(22:28):
forgive me. Jack. Somehow we don't totally understand how gets
out of the storage room. Maybe Mr Grady the Ghost
lets him out, um, and then he starts chopping down
the door of Wendy's room with an ax and then
he's like, here's Johnny. Wendy grabs Danny and they try

(22:50):
to escape out the window. But then this is when
Mr Hollowran shows up and Jack goes after him murders
him with an axe, and then Ac is chasing after Danny,
who runs into the maze. Wendy's back in the hotel
looking for Danny, and she sees a furry giving a
blow job to someone, which I totally forgot about. Always

(23:13):
forget about that scene. What. I'm not sure there's any
I mean, does that happen in the book. No, So,
Stanley Kubrick's just like L O L random humor absolutely
does not happen I'm not sure. I this is one
of those movies where I'm like a million people are
going to be our. I mentioned like the furry obviously meant,

(23:36):
but like I couldn't make heads or tails of it,
nor could I. Okay, okay, tails, funny, Wow, that's going
in the cordon packet. In the packet it goes. So.
Then Jack chases after Danny in the maze and he's

(23:57):
following Danny's tracks in the snow dan a. At one
point he backtracks a little bit and then he hides
his tracks, and then Jack gets lost. Danny manages to
get back out of the maze, He and Wendy escape
in snow vehicle that Scott man Cruthers arrived in, and
then we catched the following morning, Jack has frozen to death,
and then we see a photo of him from nine

(24:19):
that he is in leaving a lot open to interpretations,
firing a million annoying YouTube videos, the whole genre of
speculative bullshit that I don't sorry he would you agree
when I say that Jack Torrence isn't your average person? Yeah?
I agree with that. Okay, Well I know something about

(24:42):
an average person to tell me. Also, for for everyone,
who was in Jack Torrance out there. The average person
spent one third of their life sleeping and not awaken
killing people like Jack Torrance. So you should be comfortable
while you're sleeping all that time, right right, Well that's
where Sper comes in. Did you see that coming? Actors

(25:03):
really could have solved it if he had had Casper,
I think, well, I mean in too bad. This episode
isn't about Casper, the friendly little boy girl friendly with
all his creepy uncles. Right, but this episode is about,
of course the Shining the movie whose sequel is Doctor
Sleep because see what I did there? Because Casper is

(25:28):
a sleep brand that makes expertly designed products to help
you get your best rest one night at a time.
Are you listening, Jack torrens okaying he dies? Casper products
are cleverly designed to mimic human curves, which provide supportive
comfort for all kinds of bodies. The original Casper mattress
combined multiple supportive memory films for quality sleep service with

(25:52):
the right amount of sink and bounce. Imagine all the
what do you think the ghosts would use them? You
know what? I bet they're in every hotel room at
they overlook hotel. I think things would have ended so
differently if only if only Casper Mattress have been around
she was. You know, what they also have is a
breathable design that helps regulate body temperature throughout the night,

(26:16):
so you know, the ghosts and people alike won't be
overheating as they sleep. I worry about goes over here
like a car. Casper also, Caitlyn has affordable prices because
they cut out the middleman and they sell directly to you,
so they got hassle free returns if you're not completely satisfied,
and they have the free shipping and returns in the

(26:37):
US and Canada. Now to bring us back to the shining,
I would say, Jack Torrance really is a middleman and
he really bifted up. That's right, That's something to think about.
I think that's very positive. Incredible, incredible connection. Thank you.
Guess what, you can be sure of your purchase with
Casper's one night risk free sleep on it trial, and

(26:58):
you can get a hundred dollars towards elect Mattresses by
visiting Casper dot com slash TBC and using TBC at checkout.
Terms and conditions apply. That's one dollars towards select mattresses
at Casper dot com, slash TBC four the Bechtel Cast,
and use TBC at checkout Sweet Dream, which is something

(27:20):
that we never hear Jack Torrens say, which brings us
back to what we were just discussing. Wow, tasteful. So
there's a lot to discuss with this damn movie. There is, Yes,
why don't we start with adaptation stuff because I think
that there is like a little more to talk about

(27:42):
than normal when it comes to adaptation for this specific
when it comes to the book. But I'll try my best.
I don't say that I'm so please, You're welcome to
dunk on us. The one thing that I do remember
that's different as sorry if it's cutting into late instead

(28:03):
of him being hit in the head and then being
dragged away, he had hit his own head climbing over
a bar. You went to go make himself a drink,
and he hit his own head and fell, and then
she found him and dragged So this makes the movie
makes her more active then yeah, okay, okay, that's interesting.
There's also so I haven't read the book by spoiled

(28:25):
it for myself. Some things that stuck out to me
where first of all, Stephen King hated the creative deviations
made from the book to the movie, which we'll get into,
but a few things that stuck out to me, and
I'm sure that there's other stuff, but I guess. There's
a point in the book where Wendy considers leaving Jack
and Danny says, no, I want to stay with him.

(28:47):
And that's why Wendy doesn't leave sooner, or doesn't attempt
to leave, even after she knows something is very wrong.
Mr Hallerin is not killed off in the book. He
helped them escape. And then there's an epilogue that takes
place the next summer um and Halleran is working in
Maine Stephen King, uh, and he's comforting Danny over the

(29:12):
loss of his dad, and Wendy is like recuperating from
the injuries that Jack gave her and like there it's
like this, Yeah, so they like welcome, you know, a
more stable influence onto their lives through Mr Halleran, and
they moved to Maine. Because it's a Stephen King book.
I don't usually like go happy endings, but I did

(29:33):
really like that ending because it is just adorable and good.
I'm just really enjoyed it. Um, and it does seem
like and Corey, I mean, let me know if if
you agree. This seemed to be just the way that
the book plays out and what Stephen King has to
say about it more explicitly about his alcoholism and addiction
more so than like some weird spirit whatever. Yeah, which

(29:56):
I I appreciate. I agree with you and appreciate more.
And the sense that no addiction stuff is like really important.
It just shows a lot more. It's more realistic to me.
I'm only really like like realistic things. I mean, besides
the whole ghost Children and whatever. I like the whole
point where it's like, oh, it's not like a weird
like the home doing. It's like, oh, this this guy
just clearly an alcoholic and abuse of alcoholic and that's okay, No,

(30:20):
it's not okay, let's think. You know, it just makes
more sense to me. It just like grounds it a
little or I mean, I I don't know, it's weird
because like reading what Stephen King has to say about it,
um kind of turned me on the movie a little bit,
just to know that he is so against the way
specifically Wendy's part is written, so he gave an interview too.
I believe it's the Guardian, and here's what he has

(30:45):
to say. He says, quote, the books Wendy does have
a lot more depth. She's fighting against the revelation which
she's already made before the book starts, that her husband
is basically a marginally talented writer who will never really
amount to anything because he's filled with age, demons, self
loathing and booze. Whendy feels like her wagon has been hitched,
and the book is partly about the way she manages

(31:07):
to unhitch herself and her son from an abusive alcoholic patriarch.
So the hotel is like a metaphor or whatever. He
said that about the Zone book. Uh and and he
and then he later in the same interview describes He says,
oh sorry this interviews with the BBC. I got English

(31:27):
publications next up. Canceled me. So he says that the
film in general to him, seemed too cold. He said, quote,
I'm not a cold guy. Defensive Does he mean cold
like literally? Because it's snowy swish in the code we're
in Uh see you later, Fellas Cordon, They're okay, it's

(31:54):
if I don't know I'm I would happily you know what,
you know what? Okay, quote I'm not a cold guy.
I think one of the things people relate to in
my book is this warmth. There's a reaching out and
saying to the reader, I want you to be a
part of this. With Kubricks the shining, I felt that
it was very cold, very We're looking at these people,
but they're like ant and an ant hill, aren't they

(32:15):
doing interesting things? Shelley daval Is Wendy is really one
of the most misogynist characters ever put on film. She's
basically just there to scream and be stupid. And that's
not the woman I wrote about, unquote dunk, so that
is not the wrong woman he wrote about, Which is
interest because I like don't even completely like I don't

(32:36):
even completely agree that Kubrick's Wendy is stupid or really smart. Yeah,
she's like really active anything. She's just like she's defensive
and kind of just like Stockholm syndre me about her husband.
But like, I feel like a lot of women is
that misogystic of me this well, just like being inside

(32:57):
of an abusive relations and being an addict and having
a kid on to Yeah, that's just how it happens.
And also they are literally trapped, So there's but that
that's just for context. That is the main ways that
it deviates from the source material. And Stephen King still
does not ride for this movie even five hundred years later. Also,

(33:20):
apparently there's no maze in the book and instead it's
like these topiaries that come to life or something like that.
I forgot about that. Yeah, Visually, this movie is incredible,
Like it's so good, very well shot. This is one
of the first movies that used to study cam and
it is awesome. I love the shots, you know, the

(33:43):
the big wheel riding around, even the panning in on
the on the maze and the beginning beautiful. So other
stuff that is relevant to the discussion is uh, some
behind the scenes stuff. So the behind this scenes for
this movie is like deep lore. There's that whole documentary

(34:04):
room to thirty seven about it. The main takeaway is,
I mean, Stanley Kubrick did not have an incredible reputation
among female actors that he worked with, And the most
egregious example is how Shelley Duval felt about her experience
working with him. So Stanley Kubrick's daughter, he was like,
wouldn't let anyone behind the scenes or like document stuff

(34:26):
behind the scenes, which red flag. He was like, I
don't want people to remember how I treat other people.
So cool, but he let his daughter, who I think
was like maybe twenty or twenty one at the time,
document some of the behind the scenes, and the full
thing is available on YouTube. It's like a half hour long,
but you can see where Shelley Duval said a number

(34:47):
of times that he was verbally abusive to her to allegedly,
you know, get this manic, terrified performance out of her,
but he was like yelling at her all the time,
is crediting her, saying she wasn't doing a good job,
just he made her do the take with the here's
Johnny and then Shelley has the acts one times the

(35:11):
most documented takes of any like of anywhere recorded um
and there's like firsthand footage from Stanley Kubrick's daughter of
him yelling at her on set her cry like her
crying on set and no one's doing anything to help.

(35:31):
And so she had a really bad experience with him
and was vocal about it, even I mean at the
time and then for years after, and it wasn't until
maybe the past ten years the people have taken that
literal firsthand footage seriously of mistreating female actors, because you
also see him work with Jack Nicholson and he is

(35:53):
not treated that way, and so, I mean, it definitely
speaks to the culture on Stanley Kubrick set. It also,
I'm sure has a lot to do with the era
of I mean, she was making her out to be
like hysterical and like, well, if you're doing a better job,
I wouldn't be treating you this way. Um, So that

(36:14):
is I think an important piece of context specifically to
Shelley Duval. And the reviews for this movie at the
time don't mention her performance literally at all, really know,
it's so good. So it's just it's really frustrating read
that his mistreatment of her gave her such horrible stress
that she became physically ill for months and her hair

(36:37):
was falling out and stuff like that. And I I've
also heard stories and take this with a grain of
salt because I didn't do enough reading up on this,
so this is sort of just like anecdotal stuff I've
heard over the years, But that he treated Skeettman Cruthers
the same way, having him do dozens and dozens and
dozens of takes of the same shot and interesting he

(36:59):
would be like, do you want me to do differently?
Like please, just like tell me, like how can I
make this the take that you want? And Stanley Krubricks
just like do it again. It's just it's like, incredibly
I I hadn't read that. That's like incredibly frustrating and
still the problem that it's like there's an anecdote from
fucking the Joker movie of just like ship that white

(37:22):
male leads can get away with on set that their
co stars just can't. Were like it came up at
the time of recording the other day where you know what,
Keen Phoenix is allowed to go totally method. So he's
just being a fucking dick to everyone and making everyone's
who's making you know, point five percent of what he's making,

(37:43):
he's just making their lives way more difficult, except for
Robert de Niro, who he was very well behaved with
and turned his character on and off demonstrating almost like
it's not necessary and he just enjoys being horrible to people.
So I mean, it's it's something that's still happens. But
this is like a I think, a particularly egregious example

(38:04):
of like abuse of power in a director's role. So
that is bad and also not for nothing. Stanley Cooper
has a uh not an incredible record of female characters
in his films either uh he uh put it in
the cart and packet. He doesn't seem to prioritize female

(38:30):
characters literally at all. Um, if they're one woman in
full metal jacket, that might be the full Metal Jacket.
Oh no, that's the movie that famously has that very
like racist portrayal of like Vietnamese sex workers. It's like,

(38:52):
that's like those are the only women too. Literally A
million times, I think those are the only women. And
as far as I know, on his in his filmography
or whatever his canonical filmography, the only movie he ever
makes with a female lead is Low and I can
speak to That's one of the I've I've seen. I've

(39:14):
seen a bunch of his movies, but I think that
The Shining and Lolita are the two that I've seen
the most because that is I mean, it's obviously super
controversial work to begin with, but has has been adapted
horrendously both times. It was attempted, and yeah, Kubrick fucking
botches it and the only time, and then you know,

(39:36):
that's in nineteen sixty two, and he's like, I know
what I'll do, never make a movie abouttle woman again.
So that and then and then the last little piece
of the context corner that I'll kick in here is
that this movie or the screenplay is co written with
a female author, which, you know, give him a little
give him a little point at the end. She was

(39:58):
well known, not of the list at this time, but
she had never written a screenplay before. This is Diane Johnson.
Diane Johnson say her name, but yeah, so Diane Johnson.
I guess Kubrick her work was brought to his attention.
He liked it, He thought she would be a good
collaborator on it, and she wrote an essay about it

(40:20):
last year on a film journal called Scraps from the Loft,
and by all accounts, it seemed like she had a
lovely time working with him. So you know, it's it's
all He didn't sclaim at her and make her cry
all the time and make her hair fall out. Nope,
as far as we know, some things are unken. But

(40:41):
as of but as of eighteen. I mean she describes
him being like he was kind of notoriously a weird guy,
but not like he's sure that he's so dead as
long as he's like fully done. So anyways, that's the
it's it's a d context corner, but there it is.

(41:01):
No thank you very much. That's all very helpful. So
let's get into the narrative the characters. I would here's
here's here we go. I would argue that there could

(41:23):
be a feminist read of this movie in the same
way that there can be a feminist read of Rosemary's Baby,
for example, a movie that we did talk about where
even though the female character, because there is really only
one unless you count the twins acts murdered or naked Lady,

(41:44):
the one female character in the movie who has any
narrative significance is not empowered. But I feel like the
movie it shows the horrors of being a victim of abuse,
and in this movie, unlike Mary's Baby, she is triumphant
in the end and she gets away from her abuser.

(42:04):
And I think that most of the horror in this
movie doesn't come from any of the like supernatural blood
gushing out of the elevator, like, none of that stuff
really affected me. The stuff that affects me is like
the abuse that she endors. So I chose to to
watch this movie on my second rewatch through the lens

(42:26):
of just her being in an abusive relationship, and I
found that, like all the supernatural ghosts and psychic stuff
and all that stuff ends up just sort of being
metaphors for the horrors that take place when someone is
in an abusive relationship. I think that that is the intention. Yes, good,

(42:49):
I did a good job. Um, yeah, I I agree
with you too. To the next I mean, it's it's tricky.
It's I think that it ends up kind of coloring
my rate of it a little bit when we know
that they were given more with the source material and
chose not to use. It feels telling in some ways.

(43:09):
But she does, I mean, she certainly has a lot
of agency. Um. I mean, especially as a story goes on,
it's weird. I mean it it does sort of speak
to a lot of like the hallmarks of being in
an abusive relationship where she's saying one thing, but it's
very clear that she's scared. Uh. There's like a lot
of examples of her appeasing him to protect herself and

(43:32):
to protect Danny. Yeah, I mean it's like it's it's horrifying.
And I feel like there have been some because there
was after Stephen King like shot upon the movie, there
was sort of this avalanche of clickbait or thoughtful film
commentary depending on how you read it, that was agreeing
with him. But I feel like the in a lot

(43:54):
of that where they're like, well, she she's made out
to be, you know, dumb, and she why doesn't she
even I'm like, well, that's the victim blameing. Yeah, So,
I mean I think I think her care and especially
Shelley Deval does an amazing job because she you can
tell she's lying for the most part, and you can
tell that she's like physically afraid of him, and we

(44:16):
have reason to be physically afraid of him, and we
know that the whole movie, which is just like, yeah, well,
I did kind of like a beat by beat sort
of breakdown all the story beats that relate to the
abuse of relationships. So I just kind of want to
like go through them and like just sort of analyze
it a bit. Uh So, the first thing you kind

(44:39):
of realize is that Wendy seems to be doing all
of the parenting of Danny, So Jack is very hands off.
He's focused on his job, both in his hotel duties,
which he doesn't ever end up actually doing, and Wendy
does all of it because she's the one who's like
checking the phone lines, checking the boilers, checking voltage right,

(45:02):
and because he's focusing on his cordon packet is hard
so it's not easy to write, so he's not really
paying attention to to Danny at all. She's doing all
of the emotional labor of parenting. Was this the dynamic
of many American families throughout most of history? Yes, but

(45:27):
that was like the first thing I noticed. Um toward
the beginning, Wendy brings him breakfast, which she has made
him eggs, just the way he likes, sunny side up.
And then meanwhile he has slept into like eleven thirty.
She's presumably been up for hours, like taking care of
their son. He expresses no regret at all. He's like, oh,

(45:47):
weird that I slept so late, right, And then yeah, no,
also no gratitude that she made him and brought him breakfast,
and then she says, oh, it's a nice day. Would
you take me for a walk after you finished breakfast,
and he responds, I need to get some writing done first,
so they don't hang out. She instead goes on a
walk through the Maze with Danny. A little while later,

(46:10):
Jack is typing at his typewriter and then when he
comes in and she's like, Hey, how's it going. Have
you gotten a lot written today? And then he basically
starts be writing, her saying like, you're interrupting me, You're
breaking my concentration. Please get the funk out. He's ripping
up paper, he's throwing them. He's like having a tantrum.
And this is like, I think maybe the first time

(46:32):
that you see hints that he's like a scary, violent, unhinged,
abusive person. I always used to read his behavior as
like being the result of being in isolation and the
like creepy hotel ghosts stuff like getting to him and
haunting him. But this time I read it as he's

(46:53):
always been emotionally abusive. It has nothing to do with
the hotel. He's just a horrible person, and the creepy
stuff in the hotel is just like metaphors for him
being a horrible abuser. And it was like at the
fact that they set that up at the beginning and
say that this has happened so many times. It sets
up like the abuse cycle as a metaphor, and somebody

(47:19):
who doesn't know how to look into things like that,
I'm like, oh, it looks really pretty. The movie is gorgeous,
And then you guys say that, I'm like, oh, yeah,
people look movies mean things. It's I mean, but then
sometimes they don't. But it is like they set up
the idea at the beginning of the movie that if

(47:40):
an already angry, rage filled man is left in isolation,
that they will become violent. Yeah. Then we see that
scene where he's like yelling in his sleep and then
he wakes up from his nightmare and he's like, oh
my god, I had this awful dream where I killed
you and Danny and chopped you up into bits, and
like he's expressing remorse, which I took as like being

(48:03):
symbolic of like when abusers say to their partners like,
oh my god, I just got angry. It'll never happen again.
Please don't leave me. I love you. So then shortly
after that we have the scene where he reveals to
the bartender that he's accidentally one time he quote accidentally
lost his temper and hurt says. He says he had

(48:26):
a momentary loss of muscular coordination, which is just like
the a very well written piece of fuckory right exactly.
And then this is also when he starts to be
vocal about how he blames Wendy for ruining his life,

(48:47):
for like his mind, turning him into this loser kind
of person. He says something like, oh, that bitch will
not let me forget. What happened is long three years ago,
like it's just like three years ago that oh yeah.
Then Wendy comes running in and says, you know, there's
a crazy woman in one of the rooms. She tried

(49:07):
to strangle Danny, and then his Jack's first response is
are you out of your fucking mind? So he doesn't
believe her. She keeps telling him about it, and then
he goes to investigate, and this is when he makes
out with a young lady and then corpse lady um.
And then when he comes back, he lies to Wendy
about what happened and then accuses Danny of giving himself

(49:30):
his own bruises, even though I think it's one of
the more confusing parts of the movie. To me, that's
like where and I don't know exactly if this deviates
from the book, but that's the one point where it
didn't totally track for me Wendy's thought process, because I
just don't it's she already knows she doesn't trust her husband,
especially when it comes to her son. I don't know

(49:53):
like that, that's the one point in the narrative where
I'm like, I don't understand why you would take him
at his word for that. Well, it's like I feel like,
if anything, it's like everyone in that situation is in
denial about It's almost the stuff like he's even being like,
oh no, he did into himself. Because in a way,
it's also a metaphor of like the abuse part, because
a lot of a lot of abusers were like, oh no,
they just did this because they did this, and you're like, yeah, no,

(50:13):
they did it to themselves. I also read it as
like Wendy making excuses just for like, oh, well, survival instinct,
exactly the way that a lot of abuse victims have
to do for self preservation. Um. So that's how I
read that. Uh, And then right after that, whenever Wendy's like,
we've got to get Danny out of here. And then

(50:36):
Jack freaks the funk out and he's like, oh, that's
so typical of you to create a problem like this,
where you know, I finally have the chance to accomplish
something and you've funked up my life and I let
you funk it up, but I'm not going to do
that anymore. So now he's like gaslighting her, blaming her
for all of his problems. The scene that was most

(50:57):
jarring and felt like most that metaphor really hit for me,
is she so right after that, she hits him on
the head and he falls. She drags him, and then
after he's locked in the kitchen like freeze or whatever,
and he's trying to convince her to let him out,
and that gentle manipulation where you keep where you keep
cutting back to him fully like laughing at like the

(51:20):
fact that she's starting to believe that he could be
telling the truth. And then she like stands her ground
and she's like, sorry, but I'm leaving and I'm taking
our son, and like you're not gonna be able to
hurt us anymore. And then you know, like the reveal
to her, I guess that he's really never going to
change and just so, yeah, what happens there? He tries

(51:43):
three different tactics. First, he's like just irate and screaming, saying,
get me the funk out of here, like open this door.
She doesn't comply. The second tactic is, oh, no, you really,
I think you really hurt me on my head. I
need a doctor. Trying to like appeal to her more
nurturing sensibilities also doesn't work. She doesn't fall for it,
and then she's like, i'mgoing I'll bring a doctor back.

(52:06):
That's what she tells him. Who knows. I imagine that
she probably would have just gotten the hell out of
there and never come back. So she's like, I'm leaving,
I'll bring a doctor back. And then he's like, you're
not going anywhere. I snipped all those wires for that
snow vehicle um, which I think both him cutting the
wires of the snow cat and he dismantles the radio
earlier on, I think is a metaphor for when abusers

(52:29):
cut off communication victims. It's loaded and and it is
like the fact that she is triumphant is kind of
especially for like this era and I guess we we
like Stephen King gets the credit for this because that
was you know, she escapes in the story as well,
But like that seems like kind of like a uncharacteristically

(52:51):
like kind of cool, like, oh she got she got out,
like and he and he you know, quote unquote got
his um for for treating them that way. Yeah, but yeah,
they're watching it with that in mind. Is like, I
understand Stephen King's criticisms, and I think that there is
sometimes something to be said for like if it takes

(53:13):
you five viewings to get there, you know, I mean
some people view that as like, oh, it's so deep
and and you can also view it as like how
clear should things be in movies? But I guess, you know,
I don't fall any particular place there. But I didn't
notice that the first five or six times I watched it,
I mean same, I was taking it pretty much at

(53:35):
phase value in terms of like the hotels haunted. Somebody
who's watching it fifteen times half of the things you
said I never considered, so I don't even want So
it's like, how I mean that that's like a more
existential artiste question will have to ask. And we also
might be giving because we're doing this like feminist read

(53:56):
of it, maybe we're giving everything too much credit. Like
I'm really very like Leary to give Stanley kuber Kuber
credit too much. I'm but it seems like at least
a little is out here. But I would also say
that Diane Johnson was yeah, like she and she has

(54:17):
a pretty good track record with like, um, she'd written
a number of like feminist novels prior to this. So
there's that and and and it's like in the DNA
of Stephen King's story that she's triumphant and a lot
of the metaphors were like in the book. So I'm
gonna just not hand it to Kubrick and handed to
the other two people. Um, but yeah, I think it

(54:40):
is like very and the performance like deserves a lot
of credit too, because it was, like, god, it was incredible.
I don't I think it's absolutely it was not necessary
to abuse her to get that performance. She's given a
number of performances, but um, yeah, Shelley Deval kills it.
That said, though, there there were moments where I'm like

(55:00):
the way like she's running with a knife, kind of
flailing it around, and it kind of it. I don't know.
It just read to me is like a come on,
can't can't she be a little I don't like, Well
that's what I'm it's because well then I sat down
and thought about I was like, no, like, she has

(55:22):
been emotionally abused the whole time we've seen him interact
on screen together. He's being abusive, so like, you know,
I'm like, she's holding that bat so stupidly. But then
also like if I, you know, if any of us
were like, yeah, victim right, like I would be so
scared that I couldn't do anything even not scared, I

(55:42):
can't hold the fucking bat? What are you talking about it?
It would have been like I mean, and it would
have been cathartic to see her be like dope with weapons.
But I feel like that would have been like a
Merry Sioux move because given what we know about her life,
the fact that she hasn't really been allowed to have
ambitions or hobbies that we know of outside of being
a wife and a mother, it doesn't make sense and

(56:04):
softball on the weekends, and then that see that if
they had been like, well maybe if you weren't softballing
so much, then it wouldn't have been I would have
been pissed about the bad thing, right. Yeah, so I
think we've been trained as like movie watchers to see
these like strong female protagonists who are actually criminally underwritten,

(56:25):
and like when they suddenly, like against all odds, managed
to like kick someone's ass even if it doesn't make
sense for their character, we're like, but we're like, who
a woman being triumphant? Yeah, we love to see it,
but in a lot of cases it wouldn't have actually
happened that way. I was. Let's say something that even

(56:45):
in the time we've been doing this podcast and like, go,
I I never I didn't always think of it that way. Yeah. Same,
Growing with age incredible. We've got to take another quick break,
but we'll come back from more. Yeah, did anything else

(57:06):
to say about Wendy specifically? So, in addition to being um,
you know, abused and gaslet by Jack, there is a
brief moment where she's kind of lied to in Gaslet
by Mr Hallerran. It's not as nefarious, but it's the
scene where careful Halleran stan over here. Um he keeps

(57:28):
calling Danny doc and she's like, how did you know
we call him? Doc and he's like, oh, I don't know,
I probably just heard you say it. And Wendy, who
is smart and resourceful and attentive, is like, well, yeah,
we do call him that, but I'm pretty sure I
didn't say that in front of you. And he was
just like, I don't know that. Maybe he did. She
calls him on it, and then I don't know, I'm

(57:50):
I'm halleran hive over here. He has. She yes, I
don't think that's like explicit. Yeah. I didn't have a
big a problem with it, but it just kind we
found out right after why because that we found on
the media, right, because otherwise he's sitting Wendy down being like, well,
here's the thing. I'm psychic. I know it doesn't make

(58:12):
sense your son's also psychic. Tony is real like his
options are limited. In that moment, for sure, Yeah, it didn't.
It didn't really bother me, but I was like, oh, wow,
every man in this movie is lying to Wendy. Cool. Yes,
but since we're talking about Mr Halloran, I think that
it is worth discussing the way this movie treats race

(58:36):
as well as Native American culture. I don't think that
I mean, and again, we are three white ladies sitting
in a room. Um so any outside perspective is please.
Um But I mean I didn't think that it was
handled especially well starting with the whole. I mean, part

(58:58):
of what is distracting for the metaphor of the cycle
of abuse and addiction and all that is the throwaway
mentioned that it's built on a quote unquote Indian burial ground,
which from what we can tell, has literally not it's
just too it's just to make it seem like, oh,
the hotel is haunted, but the haunting has nothing to

(59:18):
do with Native Americans. There's also the line, um per
the movie built on an Indian burial ground and the
builders had to repel a few Indian attacks as they
were building it. I don't know how common of a
thing this is in Stephen King books, but I'm pretty
sure it also is the case for pet cemetery, where

(59:41):
like that was like another like indigenous burial ground. And
then when you bury your you know, children in it,
they'll come back as you know, scary possessed children. Um
so as scary cats. I haven't seen the movie, which

(01:00:05):
goes without saying, perpetuates negative ideas about Indigenous people and
cultures and just kind of an altogether disregard for what
that means at all. Like I think that it's like
I would wager to guess that Stephen King gave very
little consideration and was I mean, and and he sort
of does us with Mr Halloran as well of just

(01:00:26):
attributing magic to non white people and as a plot device. Um,
and I think that Mr Halloran is treated in much
the same way, right, Yeah. I think he could very
easily fall into like the magical negro stereotype trope that

(01:00:46):
exists in lots of fiction. It's still a prevalent trope today.
They're there for everyone who's seen both seasons of Big
Little Lies. There was a major issue with that trope
on Big Little Lies two months ago, so it is
not something that I mean, it's more likely to be
identified and called out now, but it's still gets signed

(01:01:09):
off on by a lot of people. Um. Yeah, I
think that that definitely is the one thing that is
at least is like the narrative function works where he
and Danny need to communicate for the plot to work,
but it's we know nothing else about him other than
he's psychic. He knows about the Shining he sort of

(01:01:30):
almost seems to exist out of time. Uh. And he
has a lot of naked posters in his bedroom, right,
which is a weird joke, like because the movie verily,
very deliberately frames so that you can see the posters.
And maybe that's commentary about something I could couldn't but

(01:01:55):
we don't know. We don't know the hollerin hive, we
were okay with it, but you know, it's like, he's whatever.
I don't know, but I do think that the movie's
explicit choice to kill him off is also a very
trophy horror thing because that doesn't happen in the books,
and there's such a like well tracked record of I mean,
like a black person being the first to die in

(01:02:18):
a horror movie. And Mr Hallern is the only person
who is the only innocent person who dies, even though
he's basically like he and Wendy together are the heroes
of the story, and they managed to save Danny. And
then why couldn't Kirk Letting move to Maine like he
does in the book The halleren Hive has spoken? Was

(01:02:42):
he written in the book Corey as black? Do you remember? Okay?
So at least they didn't I guess whitewash that character,
but even so killing him off was a mistake. We
also should talk about the scene in which Jack and
Mr Grady, who is like acting as called like a
butlery type of person in the bathroom and the N

(01:03:04):
word gets dropped several times by both of them, and
Mr Grady is basically saying like, hey, Jack, keep an
eye on that family yours because they're being troublesome. And
also your son he's got this talent and he's using
it to try to bring in an outside party. And
then they start talking about Mr Halleran, and you dropped

(01:03:27):
the N word the slurs, which I think is the
characters being racist and not the movie being racist, but
also that one. I don't think that. I mean, I
don't know, I see what you're saying, though, because I
don't think that they would have had Wendy say that.

(01:03:47):
Definitely not I don't think, but I don't know's it's
hard to hard to know, um, but I think because
those characters are framed as they are acts murders, yes,
so they're like their friend is being horribly racist and
horribly misogynist. Because again Mr Grady is like, yeah, my

(01:04:08):
wife was causing problems and so were my daughters. So
I killed them because I hate women, and also I
hate the women in your family, Jack, so you should
probably kill her too. It's harder. Yeah, it's harder. I mean,
it's hard no matter what. But in the movie, I
feel like it sucks more because than the only black
character in the movie has such an abrupt and that

(01:04:31):
it wasn't intended for them, So I feel like it. Yeah,
but yeah, so I mean again, it's like Kubrick does
not handle race well in this movie. Yeah. And if
there's if there's anything we miss, please let us know again.
Three White Ladies in the Room, Um, something that I
wanted to talk a little bit about Danny and how

(01:04:53):
the rein of the this movie that we've been discussing,
I don't know like it it. It hit for me
like kind of different this time. Thank you. I was
trying to like work my way around not saying that,
and then I just ended up there. Anyways, put it
in the cordon back and it's gold good. But when

(01:05:15):
you're watching it as like a little boy who is
dealing with an addicted parent versus a little boy who's
dealing with a ghost, that scene, that one long scene
with him and Jack Nicholson is so scary when he's

(01:05:35):
sitting on his lap, horrifying. Yeah, and that that kid actor,
he I think he retired. He is now a biology
professor in Kentucky. Yeah, I had the good sense to
get out of this professor Lloyd to you. Um so
good for him, but he does. He gives a great
performance in this movie. And like that scene especially of

(01:05:59):
just the way that an addict parent talks to their children,
and you can tell, I mean, Jack is kind of
already pretty far gone by the time that scenes happens,
because he's just staring at himself in the mirror when
Danny gets there. It's a metaphor, but just the way
that he tries to reassure Danny that nothing's going to

(01:06:19):
happen to him, and you can tell that Danny wants
to believe that, but also he knows that it's not heartbreaking, right, yeah,
really heartbreaking, you know, because of three years ago. And
so that scene especially, like I watched it twice this
time because it was just like, oh, like when when
you're when you're not thinking of it, it's just like, oh,
haunted Hotel movie it's like heartbreaking for that kid and

(01:06:44):
so crushing and you can feel it inside of you.
It's really crazy. I mean I can I'm just like okay, yeah,
that's my own ship, but damn heartbreaking, Like O can
we get it over dad? That scene it's away before
we see like Danny getting up off his lap and leaving.

(01:07:05):
So I my theories that that's when Jack Jack chokes chokes.
There's no doubt. Yeah, yeah, there's an absolutely no. That's
the thing is like, yeah, there's no ghost. A ghost
did not choke Danny Um. Which is why I am,
while understanding and empathizing with her, you know, role in
this very abusive relationship, I'm frustrated when you know that

(01:07:27):
she would even think like, oh, there's some lady here
who choked him, when my husband, with a track record
of hurting my son is just here like oh, and
I understand the dynamic of self preservation. But it's like right,
it's really hard to watch. But I mean, I guess
that just means that they're doing a good job. But

(01:07:50):
it was hard. That's also why the scene where she
sees the furry giving a blowjobs me because it's like, well,
that kind of like pokes a hole in the metaphors
that I feel like the you know, movie and narrative
we're trying to see ghosts in the book. Yeah, I
was just not that's like I I want because I thought,

(01:08:15):
I also don't think it's as like extreme like like
like every like. I don't I feel like the whole
haunting actual haunting part isn't as extreme extreme in the book. Yeah,
I don't know. I mean, I I think it is
like an interesting choice that she also starts to see things.
Here's here's my Galaxy brain read of it is. It's
just I feel like if we're going with the ghosts

(01:08:37):
or a metaphor for being a family unit with an
addict who refuses to get help, right, that it like
is contagious in the way it affects people. Because I
don't even think Jack isn't even the first person, right,
Danny is the first person to see ghost because he
is the most he is the most physically effect he's

(01:08:59):
shining um, but he's like the most he's been the
most directly traumatized as a child, yeah, and has like
the fewest coping mechanisms, and so like him, seeing a
ghost first makes sense plus children do see ghost because
they are more susceptible to it. In general, children are

(01:09:19):
just more susceptible. You can read it. There's studies on
it anyway, So yeah, I mean, obviously it is our
Halloween episode. I think we should just say right off
the bat, uh ghost exist. There's studies on it. And
I just I was talking about it in the car
last night and and we were like, clearly, but for
the sake of this story, uh yeah. Like I think

(01:09:41):
the ghost as a metaphor for how addiction affects everyone
in a unit. And I also think it makes sense
that when dy sees it last, because she is the
one who is trying the hardest not to see it,
but then she sees it at the end so brilliant,
and I don't mean in a sarcastic way. It was
so smart. But but why she sees a furry like

(01:10:02):
that's maybe her thing. We don't know why, because it's
like we are seeing like all the ghosts are. I
don't think anyone's thinking about it this hard, but like
all the ghosts are do seem to appear specific to
the person they're appearing to. Danny sees other kids because
that's what he'll be most receptive to. Jack sees hot
lady because he's a horny idiot. Wendy sees Hurry giving

(01:10:27):
a blow job because that's what that's given background information
about her. Maybe we are maybe we do learn something
about her other than she's a little freaking she's a man,
that she's a fair chance wife. Mother was on her
gravestone closet for there's a difference. Well. The other thing too,

(01:10:49):
is that, like women, children are often not believed. So
the fact that like, you know, Danny's seeing things and
for him to be like I strangled and like everyone's
kind of making excuses and trying to justify, Okay, well
who did this to him? And what's happening, and there's
like so much ambiguity around it, I think is telling

(01:11:11):
of the fact that, like children have a tendency to
not be believed. Another thing I wanted to talk about
briefly is there is a tendency in I would say,
especially horror movies, and it's often like the final girl
that ends up. This being the case for or just
mostly any female character, but when she has to put

(01:11:34):
up a fight or defend herself, this potentially will sound
victim blaming, So I just want to acknowledge that right
off the bat, But there's also a ten working things
out in real time. Here's what I'll say when, especially
a female character in a movie has an opportunity to
kind of get back at her attacker, maybe like somehow

(01:11:55):
they got knocked unconscious, or they're um or they're spucky
leaving in or they're like incapacitated in some way like
this just happened in that movie Ready or Not, which
I did watch and did thoroughly enjoy. But there's a
few different moments where the female protagonist of that movie

(01:12:18):
has an opportunity to like kill someone who was trying
to kill her by either like running them over with
a car or like shooting them with a gun, or
like doing something with some weapon that she has at
her disposal, and she doesn't do that, and then instead
like she's just like I'm just gonna get away, and
because she didn't kill that person, that person gets back
up and then tries to kill her somewhere, and that

(01:12:40):
the ending of the second Strangers is what got to do?
They do it all the time, but the ending of
that one, I was like, Jesus fucking Christ okay, but
I would argue for Wendy and this one where she
from what we know and we don't know enough about her,
which is like a central Kubrick Kane whatever, everyone's fault,
everyone's fault. I'm not saying Kuber's king. Uh that from

(01:13:07):
what we know, she has been kind of societally and
personally forced to define herself by this man for let's
just say her entire adult life, right, And so I
understand her reticence to murder him. Also we know that
no one's going to believe her. So my point was
going to be that I like that she first she

(01:13:28):
bonks him over the head, knocking him unconscious, and then
I think in other movies, thank you for that a fact.
I think in other movies she just would have like
left him there on the landing of the stairs and
then like just try to do something. But the fact
that she then drags him and locks him in a
room that he can't get out of, even though he

(01:13:48):
somehow did, um Like, I really like that. And then
when he is chopping down the door later, the fact
that she like stabs him in the hand, I was like, go, Wendy, yes,
like he's trying to kill you, try to kill him back.
It seems like strategic to where like it's clear she
doesn't want to kill him, and it's clear that, like

(01:14:09):
in a lot of abusive relationships, she has some love
for him, right of course, even though she knows he's
a monster. And so it's I kind of like that,
It's like she doesn't want to kill him, She's doing
what she needs to do to protect herself and her son,
and she's she's like, if that means locking you in
here and then having someone come back and arrest you,
you know, And so yeah, can we talk about the

(01:14:34):
use of the naked ladies? Yes? So, I mean I
think that this is like one of the more obvious, glaring,
like come on things where I mean, I guess, given
what we know about Jack, it's not super surprising that
he's a lecherous creep, right because he's clearly not interested

(01:14:55):
in self improvement um or people's boundaries. So I'm not
even really commenting on that as much as just the
way that the movie seems to feel about Like Stanley
Cooper has a pretty well documented history of like women
as props, so does all movies. Um, but this is
like pretty pretty aggressively, you know, where we see the

(01:15:20):
young woman versus the old woman, and it's very much like, oh,
the young woman is hot, silent, horny, right, we don't
need to know anything about her. And then the second
you see like an old woman, uh, it's complete body horror.
Is rotting. Besides that, I get where you're coming from

(01:15:44):
is rotting, but I feel like that there, that's like
co of like how people view older women. Older women
are rarely shown on screen as hot or at all, right,
first of all, at all, and if they are there
certainly not like viable romantic people. This is a this

(01:16:04):
is a plug for Grayson Frankie Gloria I love. Oh yeah,
this is a Gloria. But yeah, I mean watch Grayson
Frankie to see sexy, hot older women getting fun honestly.
But but yeah, I mean I just like, I mean,
that's I think one of the more obvious critiques of

(01:16:27):
this movie. But like, come on, right, yeah, I think
that's all I had. Did anyone have any other thoughts
about the film? I had, Does it pass the Bechtel test?
Not even a little of it? I was considering him,
and then you guys spoke, Yeah, no, absolutely not. The

(01:16:48):
only scene where two female characters talk at all is
when the two Grady twins asked Danny if they want
to play with him? Right, Oh, I wanted to mention
that that is and he like, it wasn't like a
steel it was a borrow. But um, Kubrick took that

(01:17:08):
image from a Diane Arbus photo, who's like a famous
feminist photo, very pro lgbt Q plus photographer, and he
saw like a picture she took of twins and like
that direct image isn't interesting, so Arbus representation, And it
was and it wasn't even and it wasn't like I'll

(01:17:30):
give Kuber credit of like he attributed that term. So
that's fun. If only we had known about their interests,
their names, what are their names? They like to play,
and they like to wear the same dress, so we
already know more about them than we do about Wendy.
So yeah, so, um, yes, does that pass the Bechdel tests?

(01:17:52):
So let's rate it on our nipple scale zero to
five nipples based on its representation of women. Um, this
is really hard because on one hand, I don't know
how harsh you guys judge it. Pretty hard, I want
to say like one, I want to go to Nips,
but then I feel like you guys are like one

(01:18:13):
nip was one of my two nips is as your
guys is one nip in my opinion in my hands
honestly going to go to two and a half. I
think I think I'm gonna go to on this one,
and that with the kind of I think probably keeping
in mind that we're giving the movie maybe a little
bit too much credit based on the read that we

(01:18:35):
have talked about today to take based on the revisionist
history we have put upon it. But no, I mean
I think that, like, I think that a lot of
the criticism leveraged against Wendy's character, even like five or
six years ago, wasn't taking into consideration the dynamics of
the relationship and that she's clearly a victim in this

(01:18:57):
relationship and it's super clear that she needs to, you know,
survive without help. She's not believed. I think that there's
there's like more than some critics of her character are
giving it credit for. And if you think about it,
it's most of her decisions for me, makes sense inside
of the fucking nightmare that she's It's Nerristontal um So,

(01:19:22):
I think I think that especially for and and also
this is the second Stephen King's story we've covered on
this we covered Carry all right, um And I think
that he deals with this female character far better than
he treats Carry. Um and so in terms of I
mean even growth of of I'm always pleasantly surprised when

(01:19:45):
a man manages to write a female character thoughtfully at all. Uh.
And I don't agree with a lot of Kuber's adaptations.
I agree with none of the ways that he treated
his performers. But on the strength of Wendy being like
a very tragic but ultimately victorious example of a woman
in an abusive relationship, it gets two nipples from me,

(01:20:08):
and I'm giving them to Mr hall Ran very good
twist who lives in my version and the canonical version.
Um There's there's a line in the movie that Mr
Grady says telling Jack after he's been locked in the pantry.
Mr Grady is like that wife of yours is stronger

(01:20:31):
than we thought. She seems resourceful. So he even even
the acknowledges her strength and her power. Um. So, Yes,
he's an icon. The lens through which I chose to
watch the movie this time in terms of it being
a story about Wendy, you know, struggling through this abusive

(01:20:55):
relationship and trying to save herself and her son. That
read lends itself I think, yeah, like a two and
a half nipple rating, because even so we still don't
really know anything about her character, and it's a long movie.
It's the version I watch is two hours long, although

(01:21:17):
according to use, the two and a half hour version
have to say so there's a there's time to get
to know her a little bit better anything outside of
her role as a wife and a mother, and as
well as the way this movie treats other cultures, races,

(01:21:39):
etcetera universally. But the fact that we do see her,
I mean, in the context of this story, we do
see her being the one who's like taking care of
the upkeep of the hotel. She like knows how to
use a radio. I don't know how to use a radio.
I don't know how to check a boiler to right.

(01:22:00):
But I'm saying like she she knows how to do
this stuff, all the emotional labor of like handling her
husband's responsibilities and then also being pretty much the sole
caregiver of their son and all the all this different
stuff and the fact that she does like fight back
and she is triumphant in the end. I do enjoy Uh.

(01:22:22):
But I also think the movie is far more interested
in showing us Jack's mental unraveling than it is showing
us anything about Wendy's character, because there are long stretches
of time where we don't see Wendy at all, and
the movie is just overall far more focused on Jack.
So yeah, we can we can do better on a

(01:22:43):
on a twenty nine version of a story like this.
I'm interested, Well, I'm interested also in seeing how the
uh doctor, Sleep Doctor starring who does it? Who's the
actor in that movie? Jamie You and McGregor, You and McGregor, you,
you and you, I said, you and you kill me.

(01:23:04):
I'm interested in seeing it and how it deals with trauma,
like how it deals with trauma in an adult from childhood. Yes, indeed,
so two and a half nipples I'm going to give
to to Wendy and then my half nipple is split
between the Grady twins, Brave and gross Corey. To nipples

(01:23:28):
are you giving them to? Given one to Wendy and
one to Danny. Danny we're having to deal with. Corey.
Thank you so much for being here, thank you for
having someone like me on this. But you're a bit
You've been so hard on yourself. Okay, I have sciatica
and deal with that today. Okay for my psietica. No,

(01:23:52):
I'm in a good win and I'm really happy to
be here. I'm just saying, we love you. It's so
dark in this room, scary, Corey, what would you like
to un Where can people find you online? You can
find me online and on t whether at Corey T.
Johnson because obviously Corey Johnson has taken and the T
stands for Taylor. I guess that's all I have. Okay.
You can follow us at bechtel Cast on all the

(01:24:14):
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k a. Matreon. It's five dollars a month and it
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and hey, it's not too late to get your feminist

(01:24:38):
icon Beetle Juice T shirt. You can get your wet
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sport all year round and then get out there and
don't do all work and no play. Give yourself some play.
Don't be a doll person. Not okay, Bye you