The Terminator & Terminator 2: Judgment Day

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them? Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?
Do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start changing
it with the beck Del Cast. Hello and welcome to
the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante and my
name is Jamie Loftuz. Happy three year anniversary, Jamie. I

(00:23):
know this is so exciting. It doesn't feel like it's
been that long. But it also it's been like the
weirdest three years in the history of the country, so
it also feels like forever true congratulations, congratulations to you.
Here we are. We just got fished. Talk us. We
just all still a vista babies least bitch now this

(00:49):
sweet we neo lived in We did it so today.
That is why it's just the two of us, just
the two of us. We're doing a little celebratory three
year anniversary episode. We got our fish tacos. We watched
two movies, not one, and I'm excited about it. Yes,
So before we jump in, just the regular biz out

(01:10):
of the way. Oh yeah, what is the podcast? What
is who are we? What have we been doing for
three years? Good Lord? Honestly, existential couldn't tell you. Well.
This is our podcast about the portrayal of women in movies. Uh,
and it is based around or As a jumping off
point for our discussion, we use the Bechtel test, Yes,

(01:33):
sometimes called the Bectel Wallace test. Absolutely, and that is
of course a media metric developed by cartoonists Alison Bechtel
that requires that two female identifying characters in a movie
have to have names, they have to talk to each
other about something other than a man for at least
two lines. By our standards, are are relatively low standards changed,

(01:57):
it's time to I mean, it's the tricky as if
we demand more nothing from that exactly. Oh what a nightmare.
You know, maybe we should have gone. It would be
funny if we were, like, I think you start a
feminist movie podcast or James Cameron fan podcast. This episode
would have a little bit of a James Cameron is

(02:21):
was it was going multitudes going on with that person.
We're talking about Terminators today because the new one just
came out about a month ago. I I did not
see it. I saw it, and I have a little
bit to say so, so if you haven't seen it yet,
I'll give us spoiler warning a spoiler warning, but we'll

(02:43):
talk about that a little later on. But these are
some of my favorite movies, which is why I insisted
that we do them. So what is it? What is
your history with the Terminator franchise? And like these two specifically,
by the way, we're coming the Terminator and Terminator to
Judgment Day. Correct. I saw them both when I was
sixteen years old. Yes, because my family owned not unlike

(03:07):
the James Cameron Titanic two VHS tapes, did they sell
it in a bundle? Yes, so my family had the
T one and T two VHS bundle box set and
they were in my house for a few years, but
I just didn't pay them any mind. And then one
day I was like, I'm sixteen years old, It's time

(03:29):
for me to watch Terminator and Passage. And I watched
them both on the same day, back to back, and
I loved them, especially T two, which is I think
widely considered the favorite the better movie, although there I
I met a number of people who like Terminator one better. Uh,

(03:51):
and I think they're silly, but also, you know, to
each of them, but yeah, I would I would rank
T two among my like top ten favorite movies of
all time. But to this day I love that movie particularly,
and just I mean, well, okay, so then I saw

(04:11):
those and I was like, I guess I'm a huge
Terminator fan now, so I have been for you know,
going on fifteen plus years. I saw a Terminator three
Rise of the Machines in theaters. It was terrible bad.
I saw a Terminator Salvation in theaters it was like fine,
but I never felt the need to watch it again.

(04:31):
Skipped Terminator Genesis and Denis Connor. Right, yeah, but then
I did see Terminator Dark Fate on opening day. Okay,
what's your history, Jamie. Nothing. I didn't care about him, honestly,
not crazy about him. Now. I liked T Too a

(04:52):
lot from a feminist perspective. There's a lot about T
two in particular to love. I love watching Sarah Connor
kick ass. It's just not if you've been listening to
the podcast, this is never going to be a movie
that appeals to me. I don't like eighties blockbusters in general.
I get dragged in the reviews sometimes and I have
this to say, sorry for being so fucking young. No,

(05:16):
I just I've never seen these before. Prepping for this
episode because I intuited that they were not for me,
and that was generally true. I think that there's a
lot of cool stuff to talk about, though, I am,
I'm I'm excited to talk about it, but especially like
Terminator one in particular, I'm just like, I mean, it's
the effects are pretty of the time, just like the

(05:39):
Stinth score that's happening. I mean, it's fun, it's fun,
but it's like pretty silly, I like respect to place
in history and all that, and it is kind of
cool from like a filmmaking perspective to see like a
movie that clearly was not being set up to have
a sequel, then have a sequel and have a sequel

(05:59):
piece so much better because I feel like that very
rarely happened through And also stuff for Paddington too, of course,
but like I mean, of course, I mean those are
the two major majorally cited one, T one and T
two and P one and P two and depending on
who you are, the Cheetah girls. Uh yeah, no, I
I just never gotten around to seeing it, and you

(06:21):
know now I can't say that anymore. And that's my
history with the Terminator franchise. I'm not going to see
the new one because I have to go see Parasite
five more times. Of course. Yeah, well should we dive
into the recap? Yeah, let's do it. Okay, So i'll
and I'll do my best to do a more condensed
version of the recap than usual for both movies, since

(06:42):
we are covering two. So if, if, if things aren't
as through as you like. Um, we do have to
remind you after three years, it is still a free podcast.
We've been very defensive lately. I mean, honestly, people are
coming at us more and more like read a book.
I'm like, Uh, we were not really required to read

(07:03):
a book. First of all, we have never purported to
have read a book. True, and we never will nor would. Wait. Okay,
so the Terminator four, But we open in Los Angeles
ever heard of it? In nine? It's a post apocalyptic wasteland.

(07:25):
Little did they know that we were not even going
to survive until yeah, or that might actually be the
last year. Maybe they were right anyways, true yeah, yeah,
but there's a war happening between humans and machines. Then
we cut back to l A. In four, two people
show up out of thin air. One of them is

(07:45):
Arnold Schwarzenegger, who is a terminator who has been sent
back in time to kill Sarah Connor. And you see
his butt, you see use but you see that. I
mean the newddy choices in this movie are I think
very interesting. True, there's more male nudity than female duty
than never happens. The other is Kyle Reese, a soldier

(08:08):
from the Human Resistance in the future who is sent
back to protect Sarah Connor. Uh. Then we meet Sarah Connor.
She is a young woman. She works as a server,
but the reason she's being targeted by the Terminator is
because she is the mother of John Connor, the leader
of the Human Resistance in the war against the Machines
in the future, which is good because we all know

(08:30):
that the value of a woman is ascribed to whose
mother she is. Right, Oh, yes, we'll talk all about that. Um.
And the Machines figure out that if they can go
back in time and kill John Connor's mother, then they
won't have to deal with John Connor. So both Reese
and the Terminator get their hands on some guns and

(08:51):
then they go to try to find Sarah. The Terminator
starts killing every Sarah Connor in the phone book, and
then he goes to kill Sarah at home, only she's
not home, but her roommate Ginger is, and the terminator
kills her thinking it's Sarah, right right after she has
sex because it's the eighties, right, because women who have
sex in a you know, scary movie have to die.

(09:14):
But again, at least the man dies as well. True. Meanwhile,
the deaths of these other Sarah Connors are being reported
on on the news and Sarah here's about it, so
naturally she starts freaking out. And also at this time,
Sarah notices that this dude is stalking her. It's Reese,
but she assumes that it's the guy who's been killing

(09:35):
these other Sarah Connors. Well, but as we know, Caitlin,
the guy who is talking you actually is your husband,
is your baby daddy is? I think there's a lot
of good lessons right at the top. So then the
terminator figures out where Sarah is and he goes to
kill her, but Reese intercepts him and saves Sarah by

(09:56):
shooting the terminator. Except it's really hard to kill terminators,
so he gets back up and keeps chasing them, and
then Reese is like Sarah, come with me if you
want to live. So they escape, and Sarah's like, what
the fuck? Who are you? What's going on, which in
fair legitimate questions, and Reese explains everything that I explained

(10:19):
just a moment ago, including how the Terminator is a
cyborg right armored alloy endoskeleton underneath living human tissue. There's
a lot of this movie that is just things being
explained to a woman, the alleged protagonist of the movie,
and also that this Terminator will not stop until Sarah

(10:40):
Connor is dead. He also explains the nuclear war that
will take place a few years from now, that the
machine started because they became artificially intelligent, and more about
that in Terminator Too. Oh. Meanwhile, the Terminator is still
chasing them, and he has terminator vision, so he's very

(11:01):
god finding them great. It's given it's like target detected
and where it's like computer enhanced and hands some great
hack for sure. And then there's a car chase, a crash,
and then Sarah and Reese are taken into police custody
and a criminal psychologist, Dr Silberman talks to them and everyone,

(11:26):
based on the information that Reese gives thinks that Reese
is crazy because he's claiming to be a time traveler
from the future who was sent back to stop a
cyborg from killing Sarah. Right, So they're like, he is delusional,
and she is also not sure at this point whether
she believes him either. Right. And then the Terminator shows
up at the police station and we get the famous

(11:48):
I'll be back line and he kills several of the
police officers, but Reese manages to get loose. He and
Sarah escape again, and Reese tells Sarah he's like, by
the way, my name is Kyle. And then we realize
that there's Kyle visibility in this movie. I know, you're like, Wow,

(12:09):
we're really making space for Kyle's here. I mean, shout
out to all our Kyle fans on it, but also like,
take a good long look at the mirror. Um okay.
So then they go to a motel and Reese makes
some bombs to try to kill the terminator with, and
then he makes the love and then he makes them
love in what I am so excited to describe later

(12:32):
it's it's James Cameron's Pervy Corner. Oh, we're going to
read the script. I'm so thrilled I can't wait. Oh,
it's disgusting. So then the terminator finds them again, and
there's another chase scene in a big explosion which melts
off the terminators like fleshy exterior hot hot literally and figuratively,

(12:56):
and he chases Sarah and Reese through what I think
like a robotics factory, some kind of factory and it
looks expensive. Yeah, Reese gets killed, and then Sarah finally
crushes the terminator in a hydraulic press and then she
said terminated. Fucker. We're like, we're like, whoa, she got
to do something made you wait to the end. But uh.

(13:19):
And then we cut to a few months later and
she is gregnant. She is greek net as heck with
her son John Greg greg Connor. I mean, wouldn't have
killed them to call him greg wouldn't have. Wouldn't have
because Kyle Reee made her gregnant. He Greek nodded her

(13:41):
the yeah for one one shot Kyle over there. Really
fertile guy that Kyle or her, I mean, I guess
we don't know. Maybe they're both very fertile group effort
after all. And then we see her recording what's basically
a podcast, her for her son, her son John Greg

(14:04):
greg and that is the end of that movie. Now
for Terminator to Judgment Day, which is another biblical reference.
Inside of what we can't deny is the fourteen bajiliant
Christ narrative trying to not be a Christ narrative. That's

(14:25):
very true. But until you said that earlier, when we
were watching T two, it had never crossed my mind
that this was a Christ narrative. I feel like it's
because I'm just seeing it though, Like if I had
seen it when I was young, I wouldn't have. But
now I'm just I'm so sickly. Even movies I'm loving
right now are still about fathers and sons. I'm so
I love Parasite. I'll see it a million times. It's

(14:46):
not even the spoiler. It's a father and son joint.
You're just like, I've just we get it. It's complicated
for you guys. There's been a I just whatever, it's
a father and son. And then this, yeah, I mean
for T two especially. So we open with some more
shots of l A nine being a post apocalyptic wasteland.

(15:11):
Sarah Connor's voiceover kicks in saying that three billion lives
ended on August. That's some like four ship some snappy
snappy snappy the finger. Oh no, I'm Sanos. I wouldn't
not to brag, but I'm fucking cool and I don't
see those movies. Well I'm cool and I do see them.

(15:36):
Mr Thanos and his little glovy. Yes, but this time
is Skynet, which is the name of my external hard drive.
I named it Skynet. Really, there's also a real Skynet now,
like there's a government project called Skynet, which yikes, I
hate anyway, So August nine is with has been deemed

(16:01):
Judgment Day from the people in the future because of
this nuclear attack that was initiated by the machines. Right,
So then we cut back to I think it's either
ninety five. I think it is. Wait, let me check,
because I think it maybe for some reason, is when
Judgment Day happens. It's a few years before that. Okay,

(16:22):
never mind, it's and two people show up out of
thin air again. One of them is Arnold Schwarzenegger and
he's bad to the bone. Oh my god. Yeah, and
then we're like, okay, we know this scene was done
better in the Parent Trap, but nice effort. Jimmy Cams

(16:45):
and then the other person is Robert Patrick from Spy
Kids Fame, his best known role. That's all we care
that he's done, yes, And both of them are trying
to reach young John Connor. One of them is trying
to kill him and one is trying to protect him.
Greg Greg Sorry, So Greg Connor has been living in

(17:08):
foster care for the past few years because his mom,
Sarah Connor ever heard of her, has been in a
psychiatric hospital because everyone thinks she is delusional when she
talks about Judgment Day and time traveling killer cyborgs, and
she's trying to escape a number of times. Uh, And
it seems like she's gotten close, but they keep putting

(17:28):
her under more and more surveillance, and so now she's
focused on getting very very strong, right, she's doing pull
up pull ups. Doctor Body Dr Silberman from the first
movie is there and he's the one who's like she
is like under his supervision. Um. Then we cut two
Cyberdyne systems where this dude, Miles Dyson is using technology

(17:53):
from the terminator that Sarah Connor crushed in the first
movie to develop other technology. Meanwhile, John Greg Connor Greg
is at a greg. He is at a shopping mall
which may or may not be the Glendelle Gallerria. We
don't know, Headcannon, it's the Glendale Galleria, and we're like,

(18:16):
go across the street to the Americana right good side? Yeah, um,
And the two guys who showed up in the beginning
are both after him. And just when you think Arnold
Schwarzenegger is the bad Terminator again psych he's the protector.
He's a nice one. The first time I saw this
when I was sixteen years old, I was like, oh,

(18:37):
my fucking good one. And he's but he's like he
pulls the gun out of the box of roses and
then he sticks on the rose and you think he's
going to kill John Connor, but just kidding. He saves him.
So that means the other guy is the bad Terminator
and he is a T one thousand, a more advanced

(18:59):
model Arnold that he can turn into like animorphus goop.
Doesn't it look like he looks like an animal, like
if animals had a way bigger. But I'm guessing that's
why animals was ripping off, like they were trying to
do that effect. Did you ever watch animal didn't know
it was a TV show about kids that could remember
the books. Yeah, and they would turn into like Silver
Group and they're like, I'm an well now kind of

(19:21):
reminded me of that. Yeah, he's made of like liquid
metal and he can shape shift and then also like
turn his arms into swords. It kind of looks like
a screen saver too, the way that the liquid metal looks.
It looks like an old screen saver, right, I mean
it's like c G I, which was like just the

(19:42):
very beginning of c G I, but it's like it's
pretty Yeah, No, it's cool. I mean, even like seeing
the guys shape shift between different people and into Google
like it is, it still looks scary. Yeah, and then
John Connor is like, hey, Arnold, ha, we gotta go

(20:05):
get my mom. So they drive and go to pick
up Sarah Connor, but she's already like halfway escaped from
the hospital. In a scene that I now realize kill
Bill is very much ripping off potentially, Um, I feel
like there's no way. I mean, it's like Quentin Tarantino's
Saw Terminator too, like because there's i mean, the beats

(20:27):
are pretty close to identical where it's Sarah Connor. I mean,
what happens to Uma Thurman's character is like a more
severe assault, but she's assaulted while she's unconscious. She comes
to and she kills everyone in the hospital or you know,
injures them beyond and and then is able to escape. Yeah. True,
it's exciting. So yeah, she's she's well on her way

(20:50):
to escaping. But then she sees Arnold, who she thinks
it's still a bad terminator, but her son John Slash
Gregg is like, no, he's good. Now can you imagine
the e T S. D of It's got to be
a lot to hear. There's a lot. I mean, well,
we'll talk about that. But the thought about that. Arnold says,
come with me if you want to live, and that's

(21:10):
the same thing that Kyle Reyes said to her. So
she's like, I guess I got my boyfriend said that,
who I still love. I guess it's okay. So they
all meet up and then they get the hell out
of there and they go and gather some weapons, and
then Sarah goes after Miles Dyson, thinking that if she
kills him, she can prevent the impending war. He's doing

(21:31):
all the work to create what will eventually become Skynett.
This is one of my favorite moments in the movie
because I wasn't sure where this moment is going to go,
and end up being pretty cool, right, because she can't
bring herself to kill him because she's not a terminator
after all. She's wait for it, a mother, a mother

(21:52):
because she's in front of his family and so forth, right,
so instead she John, Arnold Miles go to Cyberdyne and
they destroy all of Miles Dyson's work on Skynet. Miles
ends up being like a hero. Yeah, yes, and I
hate that he has to die, and we'll talk about
that as well. But the cops show up and then

(22:14):
Bad Terminator shows up and there's a big chase and
they end up in this steel mill and there's like
the fun liquid nitrogen slash, like bad Terminator gets frozen
and Arnold's like, ah, still a Vista baby, but the
Bad Terminator melts himself back together, and then there's some

(22:34):
more fighting and it's long. It's quite long, um. But
then eventually they managed to kill the Bad Terminator and
melt him for good in the liquid steel and then
Arnold Terminator is like, hey, wait a minute. You have
to kill me too because my CPU chip has to
be destroyed. And it's sad because he's daddy. Now he's daddy. Now,

(22:57):
it's right. Greg can't catch a break and he's so
upset he watches his daddy go into lava. You're just like,
oh my god, what is poor Greg? Yes, um, hey, Jamie, Yeah.
I don't know if you noticed this in the movie,
but when they go to pick up Sarah Connor from
the hospital, there's a sign at some point that says

(23:19):
she's in Pascadero. That's a six hour That's like, there's
no need to think about how large California is. But
they're traveling in state. But that's not to say that
it isn't a very long voyage. And there's like, I
think something that Sarah Connor really could have used. Tell me,
what do you think it is? Well? I think this

(23:40):
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(24:03):
which would have made Sarah Connors travels more seamless. And
you think she'd know that, seeing as she's from the
near future. You would think you'd think, well, we have
some away suitcases. We got some, we got some. We've
used them recently. Recently we went to Denver for our
live shows and then I just used mine to go

(24:23):
across country to Boston and genuinely like, it's my new
prop suitcase for the show I travel with, because it's
just like I genuinely really I really enjoyed my away
suitcase and it's cute. I've never had one that had
like four wheels. Three sixty wheels are good. Yeah, before
I got my away suitcases, I was just like dragging

(24:46):
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(25:08):
and a whole interior organization system. What I like is
that there's like compartments so that your shoes aren't going
to touch your stuff, and just like stuff I hadn't
even thought about, and I just was like, oh, I
guess my shoes will touch my stuff and I don't care.
But now I can care because you know, and you
can separate clean and dirty clothes. It's really nice. And
there's a t s A approved combo lock that keeps

(25:31):
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(25:51):
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(26:37):
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(26:59):
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check out. All right, let's check in on Sarah Connor.

(27:40):
All right, well, I guess, I mean, there's there's a
lot to talk about here. It's so we're gonna attempt
to do a discussion that kind of spans both of
the movies, but we'll probably be clicking in and out.
Bear with us, Sarah. I mean, Sarah Connor obviously is
the main character worth discussing, and she's fortune, I mean,

(28:01):
I would say the best remembered character from the movie,
even though Arnold is also I don't know, maybe they're tied. No, definitely,
Arnold is far more. Really, god damn it, they're the
second one ends up being a lot more than right
out there. And then she also she also got her
own TV series, The Sarah Connor Chronicles, which I admittedly
never watched. Well, Caitly and you're canceled. I mean, like

(28:23):
the fact that like Arnold is on the poster for
both movies, like that string shows like who's potentially the
more valued character in this franchise, but Sarah Connor for
our purposes, she's by far the most right. But but
I think it is kind of fascinating to watch how
she is treated differently in both movies. I think it's

(28:47):
it's like one of those cool things where you can
see kind of you know, like you can track the
growth of a filmmaker in the space of seven years,
you can track the growth of you would imagine society
a little bit in seven years where in the first
Terminator Sarah Connor, I think she's still more active than
a lot of female protagonists of but she's not extremely active.

(29:11):
She is cast as a mother and a love interest
for the most part until the very very very end.
She's not made out to look as particularly qualified, which
I think is like both one of the coolest and
most frustrating things about her character, because it feels like
the first movie, I feel like it's all about withholding information.

(29:32):
She doesn't have any of the information or skills she
needs to be an active participant in the first movie,
and then the second one is the total opposite. She
has most of the information and all of the skills
she needs to survive. So it's cool, It is cool
and I mean, as much as we get frustrated when
a female protagonist, like in an action franchise, isn't equipped

(29:55):
with like the skills and the information she would need
to have to be a total bad that also, right,
it makes sense at least in the first movie. Yeah,
I just I think that that's like one of those
things that it comes down to, like that was a
narrative choice to give her literally no information or I
just like that's one of those things where I wish,
like if she doesn't have the skills, I mean that

(30:16):
makes sense, she is an l a waitress, why would
she have these combat skills? But then at least give
her some information, give her something that doesn't mean that
she's going to have to go to like the whims
and be constantly needing. I don't know. I just feel
like in the first one, she never really has an
upper hand until the end, And I feel like that's

(30:37):
like a narrative issue, or it was for me, I
see what you're saying. And I might be like, because
I love these movies so much, like I it might
be difficult for me to like separate my feelings and yeah,
but like I don't know, like, yes, of course, it
wouldn't make any sense for her to have combat training,

(30:57):
and why would she have information about the future. But
like then like Kyle Ree's like gives her a lot
of information. Yeah, but that's her stuff. But that's what
I'm saying is like she there's nothing she can tell him,
you know, you know what I mean. Like, I feel
like it wouldn't have like made the concept of the
movie work less if she even at one point in

(31:17):
the movie had information that he didn't. I was able
to move the plot forward, Like if she was like, hey,
there's a blockbuster around the corner that we can hide
in four and you don't know what blockbuster is even
like goofy four knowledge that could come into Like I
just I was fresh because usually I feel like most
movies will toss you a bone of like something of

(31:41):
like I mean, obviously, you know she sort of becomes
the fish out of water in her own world, but
you know, there's usually something and so I was kind
of like, I see what you're saying, I misunderstood before.
But yeah, that yeah, that's a valid criticism for sure.
Another thing with her in Terminator one is that I mean, well,

(32:01):
I mean, my my issue with the Sarah Connor thing is.
I agree that she is a feminist icon, especially in
T two. I love so much about her, but it
does like her whole. You know, she's she's in her twenties,
she's in nineteen. She's nineteen fund the first movie, so
she's nineteen, but she's twenty eight because movies. But she's nineteen.

(32:25):
She's a waitress in l A, which you would imagine
she has some sort of creative aspiration. Movie has no
interest in why she's in l A, how she got there,
what her dreams are, what her goals are. Two men
show up and tell her this is what your life is.
You will give birth to this boy, and this is
and and and we only see her push back against
it one time, in that scene with Kyle, where she's like,

(32:49):
I can't even battle to checkbook, like I don't have
I can't be this like you know, military hero, I
can't be this terminator destroyer or whatever. And that's the
only time we see her stand up for herself about like, well,
what about what I want? What about my choices? Which
we haven't I'm trying to be an actor over here,
you would imagine trying to write audition for The for Aliens,

(33:11):
directed by James Cameron, has come out in two years.
I gotta get, I gotta get, I gotta start taking classes.
But the movie has I mean, it's and I and
I and I know that this is a critical part
of the movie working. But you know, it is a
young woman who two guys from the future show up
and say this is what your life is, and you

(33:32):
have to make this work. And she doesn't really have much.
The movie doesn't give her much space to say, no,
I get to decide what I do with my life. Yeah,
it's like, well, can I still moonlight as an actress?
In addition to that, that's the most frustrating thing about
this movie in particular. And then it carries over into
T two, but it becomes a little like it's so

(33:53):
much because like Sarah Connor is targeted because she's important,
but she's only in poor because she is the mother
of a man who is actually important to the resistance.
Because these movies can't envision a world where a woman
is important because she's the powerful resistance leader. They can

(34:14):
only see a world where a man would be in
that leadership role. And she's his mother, his mother, I mean,
and it's cool. It's so I mean, there is this
like and I know that we have to consider the
time that this came out in where it was. I mean,
for a long time, Sarah Connor was like about as
good as you could get for a female protagonist in

(34:36):
an action franchise. And for all the Jimmy Cammy issues
will bring up later, like, he was one of the
only directors that would prioritize that and for sure work.
So for all of its flaws, it definitely was progressive
for its time. But you do see, just kind of
with some time and reflection that she is still relegated

(34:56):
in both movies to an extent to her relationships to men.
And and that's another thing that I feel like is
kind of fully taken from uh Kill Bill and the Bride,
is that you know, you can see this woman who
is kicking as she's very capable, she's excellent at what
she does, but it's the connection to motherhood that ends

(35:19):
up driving the story. Women aren't allowed to have motivations
that aren't connected still somehow to domesticity. And again that's like,
obviously not to knock the concept of motherhood, but it
is like the way we most frequently see women defined
by in movies, and even in these like very famous
action movies, it's still that somehow a woman can only

(35:41):
be a participant in narratives like that if she's also
framed as you know, being a mother oftentimes. And yes,
of course, like to clarify, we love motherhood, we love mom's.
It's just the societal expectation that women must be mothers
and you've got no other choice, and that's what your
role is as a woman in society. That's what we

(36:03):
take issue with. Well. And also I think, just like
my frustration is just like I think it's wonderful that
there's movies about motherhood and like frank discussions of motherhood
women aren't I mean there's one woman one for four
in both of these movies. Is there a woman actually
writing about it? So women are not allowed to have
really generally a perspective on motherhood. It is an invented

(36:26):
perspective forced upon them by a male writer and a director.
And it's also just like that is the only narrative
you can have, like there's not many alternatives, and so
I don't know, And if it sounds like I'm being
too harsh, it's because I don't have any um sentimental
connection to these movies, but especially in the first one,
the christ narrative was so heavy handed, and then at

(36:50):
the end they're like, Jesus is about to be born,
and I'm like, I don't, I can't give a fun
Jesus name is Greg and he's not to be born,
you know. Also, to just touch on something that you
just mentioned, Um, the writers of these two films both
were written by James Cameron, and then on the first
Terminator movie, Gail and Heard has a co writing credit,

(37:12):
and then on the second movie, UM William Wisher has
a co writing credit. However, for the first movie, that
would appear to have been co written by a woman.
According to Wikipedia, Gail and Heard suggested some edits to
the script after she came on board as a producer
of the film, and then took a screenwriting credit for

(37:33):
the film, but James Cameron has stated that she did
no actual writing at all. I read that as well,
which is just like, I mean, I'm glad she got paid.
Love when women get paid, but also like let them
do the fucking job. Yeah, Gail and her, I mean
it's she produced both of these movies. She's produced a
number of famous movies. Um in a time where not

(37:54):
a lot of women were producing movies, much less movies
this huge, So that is great, it is. I mean,
if if you look at the script for a Terminator one,
it's very clear that it's a James Cameron script because
it is disgusting. It's so you're just like, oh, this,
there's no way this isn't written by a man who's

(38:16):
never made a woman come into life. Like that's the
only energy you get from it. So yeah, I saw
that as well. You're like, oh, that totally tracks based
on the very bizarre excerpt that I've read. I mean it,
I am happy at very least and again it's like
eighties early nineties, Like you're like, I'm glad that a
woman was involved and like had influence over the store

(38:39):
or at least some influence over the story and what happened.
I mean. It's frustrating though, because even the Terminator movie
that just came out five credited writers, all men, ye,
which is just like a continuation of this fucking hideous thing.
Then I feel like we're seeing as like as it
becomes more of a priority in an audience to manned

(39:01):
for there to be more inclusion in movies where the
front facing stuff, the on camera stuff is far more inclusive,
and then behind the camera it's exactly the same. Pisses
me because in Terminator Dark Face, and this is not
a spoiler because if you've seen any of the trailers
you know this, but the three main characters of that
film are three women, and you're not going to believe.

(39:21):
Fans of the Terminator franchise, we're mad about it. Another
kind of conflicting thing I have about this first movie
is so a man is sent back as Sarah Connor's
protector and savior essentially, um So, the plot of this
movie forces a woman to be in a situation where

(39:42):
she's constantly needing to be protected by a man because
he does have the upper hand in terms of having
the combat skills and all the information necessary to keep
her alive. She has nothing, but all at the same time,
though she's like, she isn't framed as being helpless. She
like doesn't she does stuff, you know, like, especially towards
the end, it does take a while take the whole move.

(40:04):
But also if I was in that situation, like I
have no combat training, if someone was like sent back
to kill me, I'd be like, yeah, I don't know
how to survive either. Well, again, I think it's a
story flaw because that's like it didn't have to go
that way. She could have had something she I agree
that she if she even just had like knowledge of

(40:25):
contemporary l a and she can be like we let's
go this way or like hide here. Yeah, like that
would have been that would have been nice the end.
I like, I like all of her scenes at the end,
like when she starts to when she's allowed to drive, right, Yeah,
so in the third act, essentially when she starts to
become a bit more active, where she yeah, like you said,

(40:47):
she is driving the various cars that they've stolen. Um,
she does veer the terminator off the road when he's
chasing them on the motorcycle. She saves Kyle, and I
mean he has to save her a number of time,
but like their truck rolls, so she like pulls him
out of the truck and saves him U And then
after the terminator gets back up out of the fire,

(41:07):
she's the one who like the glass. She unlocks the
door to get into the factory. And then yes, she's
the one who like lands the final blow of like
crushing and destroying the terminator, which is cool, you know,
because you were like kind of set up by that
scene to make it seem like Kyle is going to
be the one that does it, but he died but
then he was too weak, and then she gets it

(41:31):
was really exciting when she when she gets like the
death book is so I mean, female protagonists very infrequently
get that in their own movie. So I thought that
was great. Yeah, I mean the last act you start
to see like the and it was I mean, it
was kind of like heartwarming, even though you're like the
love story is so bizarre, but it was kind of sweet.

(41:53):
I thought to see Kyle be kind of like star
struck by her and like, I don't know, just kind
of that was something I'm like, Oh, if I had
seen that movie when I was younger, it would have
like hit for me. Where she feels like, oh, I'm
just a waitress. There's there's not much to me, and
then he's like, no, do you know how cool you're
going to be or like the coolest person in the world.
She's like what, and you know, like that I thought

(42:14):
that was kind of sweet, but It's like, did she
really need that validation from from a future man. I
don't know. I think she's already cool even before she
for sure is. She drives a moped, she has a
pet iguana, feminist song hugs iguana. You know she she's
an independent woman. We know what her job is. She

(42:37):
has a roommate, ginger who she seems to get along
with really well. I feel like that we don't know
that much. We don't know much. The end goal air
endgame isn't being a diner waitress. Probably not, It isn't.
But one of the things I did like about what
we know about her character early on is her date

(42:57):
bails on her on a Friday night, but she decides
to like go out to dinner in a movie by herself,
because like in a lot of movies you would see
that happen, and then you would see the woman like
cry over a tub of ice cream at home and
like not that I mean I do that sometimes, Like
it definitely happens, but in terms of setting a precedent, right,

(43:21):
that's become yeah, like the whole like a boy didn't
want to go with me, I'm just gonna eat ice cream.
That's become like such a trope. So yeah, I really
liked that. You know, she's just like fun it, I'm
gonna go to a dinner in a movie. But like,
what does she want to do with her life? We
don't know, Carmen doesn't care. We gotta take a quick break,
but we'll be back. Hilarious. You get what I did there, Jamie,

(43:44):
no unpack it during the break. Okay, Well we'll be
back another thing. Well even Okay, So even though we
don't know really anything about her aspirations or you know,
just that much in general, and she doesn't get a

(44:05):
chance to be super active until around the third act
of the movie, I would argue that she's still fairly
She's reaching come to the defense of this movie, probably
too much, But I would argue that she's fairly proactive
throughout the movie in the sense that, like when she
thinks she's being stalked by Kyle Reese, like she goes

(44:27):
into a yeah, she says, I mean she goes into
a public place because she thinks that'll be safe. She
calls the police, like I think in a lot of
movies where a woman is being chased by a killer,
And maybe this is more common in like horror slasher movies.
But also I would argue that Terminator is not unlike
a slasher horror film. But in a lot of cases,

(44:48):
the women in those movies make stupid choices. And that
might sound victim blame me, but they're stupid choices because
the male writers who write those characters I think that
women are stupid, and so they write them that way.
And I think at that point, um, I totally see
what you're saying. And and that stands just strictly based
on how her roommate is treated, her roommate and her

(45:08):
roommate's boyfriend when they're murdered in cold blood right after
having sex. That is like a horror movie tried, Yeah,
for sure. But Sarah is like using the best judgment
she can, whereas in like other movies of this era, again,
especially like you know, slasher movies, the female characters were
using terrible judgment. And even like I watched a movie

(45:31):
around Halloween time that came out in a terrible horror
movie on Netflix about a killer clown called Terrifier. But
I was like, this looks horrible. Let me watch this,
and in that movie again, this movie can put two
years ago, but all the female characters just like kept

(45:52):
making one stupid choice after another, like they would go
back into the creepy warehouse for no reason at all
after a bunch of very scary stuff had just happened
to them. I think we're used to seeing like female
characters using poor judgment or just like not being very proactive.
But in this movie, like Sarah is making smart choices

(46:13):
and she's being proactive. And even though she does like
make a mistake because she thinks she's talking to her
mom and tells her the number of the motel that
she's staying at, but it was really the terminator who
had been impersonating her mother she had knowing that she
didn't know. Yeah, so even like a mistake that she makes,
she didn't do it because she's like written as a

(46:34):
an airheaded, underwritten female character. I still think she's an
underwritten female character in the first movie, but I see
she has been I viewed with street smarts, and that's yeah,
that's good. And that's also I mean, like you said before,
this is a movie coming out in a decade where
action movies had almost no interest in featuring women. Like

(46:54):
the action movies of this time, where things like die Hard,
First Blood, RoboCop, Indiana Jones, Lethal Weapon, Top Gun, like
all these like hyper hyper masculine, dripping with toxic masculinity films.
Uh that didn't have any vested interest in female characters,
which might be a good point. I mean, and it's
weird because you get a taste of that with the Terminator.

(47:16):
But the Terminator is kind of like this, I don't know,
it's kind of like a smartly written character where the
Terminator I mean, and we know now that like robots
are also prejudiced because they're made by people, but I
feel like the Terminator is created to be someone who
doesn't discriminate, just has a mission and accomplishes it. So

(47:37):
there's not even even though he is like technically the
lead macho blah blah blah of the movie, you don't
see that like inherent sexism in him because he's a machine.
A machine he's so you're like, oh, that's kind of cool,
like you you don't get the casual sexism that you
would in a die Hard kind of movie because he's

(47:57):
a computer. Cool and I do. I mean, this is
maybe a good point to bring up James Cameron's pretty
consistent commitment to not objectifying Linda Hamilton's in both of
these movies, which is again it sounds like a very
like least you can do creative choice, but not a
lot of movies we're making that creative choice, especially in

(48:18):
like blockbuster movies, where that's so inherent even now truly. Yeah,
I mean eighties action movies. If there was a woman
in the story, she was very much overly sexualized, like
retuitious nudity, all that kind of stuff, and if she
was participating in the action, it wasn't a very skimpy
outfit the whole bit. So that is cool, and you,

(48:38):
I think, especially in the first one, you see more
made of Arnold Schwarzenegger's body than of Linda Hamilton's. You
do have that brief sex scene that we are going
to do a reading from. I mean, she should we
get to that now, because I would like to talk
about this romantic subplot. Okay, well, let's I guess start
by like reading Okay, so do you who do you

(48:59):
want to be? Say A Reese? And then I'll read
action lines. Okay, I'll be Reese? Okay, ready, yes, action
and so you feel nothing. It's better that way Kyle
Reese takes a long, slow breath before he answers, and
when he does, his voice as a new quality and
unfamiliar tenderness. John Connor gave me a picture of you once.

(49:23):
I never knew why. It was very old, torn faded.
You were young like you are now. You weren't smiling,
just a little sad. I always wondered what you were
thinking at that second. Oh, he's so cringe e. He
closes his eyes, reaches towards her. His fingertips traced the
contour of her nose, chin, cheeks. I memorized every line,

(49:46):
every curse, opens his eyes, looking right at hers. Sarah,
I came across time for you. I love you, I
always have. Sarah's quietly overwhelmed. Reese looks away. I'm so sorry.
I shouldn't have said Kyle. And now the money shot.
She leans forward and kisses him. His face is frozen

(50:09):
a mask. She continues tenderly. He begins to respond. The
damn breaks and he tolds. He holds her in a tight,
trembling embrace, clinging to her like life itself. Carmon is
literally a virgin. Kyle picks her up and carries her
to the bed. She kisses his neck and chest, tracing

(50:30):
his scars with her lips. He unbuttons her blouse very slowly.
Sarah guides his powerful hands over her. A sequence of
cuts details impression Sarah a very close angle as she
grimaces in divine agony agony Reese his face wrapped, his

(50:50):
hand clutching the pillow as if to kill it. It
is explosive, torrential, a confluence of fate and will disgusting.
James Cameron writing like competitive, erotic, fantic, Like I was like, sir,
this is a wendy. It's like, please take this out.

(51:13):
And it's funny because I think it really did produce
one of the most sexless love scenes I've ever seen.
Hate this sex scene in the movie. Although okay, here's
what I will say about this. It's written a little
differently in the script. What ends up on screen is
Sarah being the one who initiates romantic contact with Reese,
like she's the one who comes onto him because she's like, Hey,

(51:34):
what are the women like in your time? And he's like,
I don't know, I don't talk to women. I've only
ever loved you. And then he's like, oh no, I
should have said that. And then he goes over and
starts fiddling with his bombs because he doesn't know how
to be around a woman, know how boys are. And
then she kisses him and then they have sex, so
and then that's she gets gregnant. But I mean, yeah,

(51:55):
she's the one who's like initiating this sexual encounter, which
I always like to see. It is nice. Yeah, and
then and again it's like another thing that this movie
does that might not seem I mean even that now,
I feel like there's still not a lot of women
in movies who initiate sex scenes except for Rose and Titanic.
James Cameron needs a woman to initiate unfortunately, one of

(52:17):
the other nastiest sex scenes ever written. Um. What I
don't like though about this romantic subplot is one it exists.
It exists at all. It was a studio note I
read that strengthening the love interest between Sarah and Reese
was a studio James Cameron agreed to it because apparently

(52:37):
it hadn't been written quite that way, like their relationship
wasn't as strong and romantic in the original script, so
he's like, yeah, sounds great. What I really hate about
it is that he shows up as this protector man
she rescues her, and then also like treats her really badly.

(52:58):
The way he treats her physically at the getting made
me very incurtently. He's repeatedly like scrabbing, grabbing, and I
know it's like it's an emergency, but he keeps grabbing
her arm and you're like, dude, he's saying. He's like,
do exactly as I stay, don't move unless I say,
don't make good sound unless I said do you understand? Yeah,

(53:18):
just a lot of like extremely aggressive, pretty violent actions
towards her. And then I have sex a while later.
So not into it. It's not great. I get how
it fits into the story, and it feeds into the
whole franchise, and you're like, oh now, it's kind of
this story element that's inseparable from the entire franchise. And

(53:43):
you know, hooking up with the future man sounds hot,
sounds great. I just like, I I don't know, I
have more. I I don't like that it is such
an obvious studio note relationship um that carries into the
Terminator too in a way that is like doesn't feel necessary,
where she's like I still love him, and which will
get into because the whatever my thing is Listen, Sarah

(54:07):
Connor didn't get to decide what to do with her life.
She didn't even get a name her own fucking kid.
It's like, so I just she wanted to name him Greg.
She wanted to name him Greg, which makes logical sense.
The relationship is annoying and the sex scene is weird.
Every eight I'm just like, who is we were saying

(54:31):
this when we were watching, Like you can just feel
that there is an entire crew in the room. It
doesn't feel like you're just like, oh, the actors seems
so like I'm like, they must be so uncomfortable otherwise
why would this scene appear this way? I think, Yeah,
I mean, what really bothers me about it is not
I mean the sex that they have fine, Like I

(54:51):
think their trauma bonded together that makes people horny, and
I think, you know, they have sure sex. But when
it bleeds over into this movie and she's like, I
still love him. I think about him all the time
and da da da, and like she has dreams about him,
Like I don't they knew each other for a day,
Like do you really are you in love with him. Well,
if we're formally crossing over in Determinator to territory, I mean,

(55:15):
obviously Sarah has a like infinity more agency in Terminator
two than she does in the majority of the first one.
And and I feel like T two is like the
feminist icon version that people really remember in cosplay as
and all this stuff. I mean you can literally see how,
like Laurie Strode is dressed like Sarah Connor from T

(55:39):
two in the Halloween movie that came out last year,
Like it is a very enduring version of this character
something I wanted to touch on, and this does sort
of just demarket I guess, like the difference of how
he approaches her character in the first and second movies, which,
by the way, he first describes her. So in the

(55:59):
first movie, this is how he describes Sarah Connor. Sarah
Connor is nineteen, small and delicate, featured, pretty in a flawed,
accessible way. She doesn't stop the party when she walks in,
but you'd like to get to know her, her vulnerable quality,
masks of strength she doesn't even know exists. So that's
pretty fucking patronizing. Uh. And then in T two, this

(56:24):
is how he describes her, he is truly a horrible writer. Uh.
Sarah Connor is not the same woman we remember from
the last time. Her eyes peer out through a wild
tangle of hair, like those of a cornered animal, defiant
and intense, but skittering around looking for escape at the
same time fight or flight down. One cheek is a
long scar from just below the eye to the upper lip.

(56:44):
Her voice is low and chilling monotone. So he kind of,
I mean, and you can see this, you can see
like shades of the Sarah from Terminator one, but it's
for the most part, like a really different like you
can see where she's coming from, but she's very different
and t two and like for sure way more fun, definitely,

(57:07):
but there are still like some little things that just
like bug me as the James Cameron has this thing
where he for his time Peak Cameron, although you know
Avatar a billion, maybe there's a second coming, but for now,
if we're considering eighties and nineties, Peak Cameron right had

(57:29):
more progressive female characters than most, but he does kind
of he's still a man, and he's still kind of
uses the same I feel like quote unquote cheat codes
to give his female characters dimension in multiple movies and
Terminator to an aliens. I feel like he makes a

(57:50):
very similar choice with Ripley as he does with Sarah Connor,
where it's she you know, these are both very capable
and motivated action heroes, but they're motivated by mommy, and
he has difficulty it would appear, I mean, he doesn't Entitanic,
but he has difficulties seeing past motherhood in this period

(58:14):
of movies as a conceivable motivated He can't like think
of another conceivable motivation for a woman, which is annoying.
And in this one too, and in T two, there's
a few different moments for Sarah Connor. You know, there's
like that speech where she says, um, oh, you know
what I'm trying to bring up, where she's basically this thing,

(58:36):
this machine, was the only thing that measured up. And
she's talking about how she you know, she's been subtly
scouting for a father for Greg Greg, and you know
that just sort of doubles down on the like nuclear
family trope and like everyone needs a mother and a father,
which we know is not true. And it's not like

(58:57):
it's a bad thing for her to want more support
in parenting. But it's just such a straight forward kind
of underthought. I feel like conclusion of like, well, of
course she has to find a father for her son. Yeah,
I also this is maybe a reach, but also like
that bothered me because yeah, she says something like, of
all the would be fathers, like this machine is the

(59:20):
only thing that could measure up because it would never
leave him or get drunk and hit him or shout
at him or say he was too busy for him.
But like, the other part of this terminator character is
that like he doesn't understand human emotion and like it's
just like completely avoid of likeial vulnerability and as someone

(59:40):
who grew up with a father who is incapable of
emotional intimacy or vulnerability. And yes, because I've estranged myself
from my dad for that reason. So I feel like
Sarah Connor being like, yeah, daddy, he just needs to
be around, and it's like, well, that's not good enough.
So I feel like it's like letting father's off the

(01:00:00):
hook as long as they're just around, and it's like, no,
there's more to it than that. Yeah, it's weird. It's
kind of complicated too, because it's not like Sarah Connor is.
I mean, there's so so something that I think is
very interesting. I guess the sort of crosses over T
two becomes more of this goofy father son relationship than
I was expecting it too. That's one thing I feel

(01:00:22):
like that takes up way more real real estate in
the movie than it needs to. And it again implies
that every kid needs a mother and a father, and like,
you know, good Terminator becomes daddy and you're like, I
get like, sure, I guess, you know, and and I
do like that John Grigg calling what you will um
he has an arc of becoming more emotionally intelligent, more sensitive,

(01:00:47):
more empathetic. I feel like through the movie where you
start out and he you know, he's in foster care.
His mother is in a psychiatric word and he, you know,
says that you know, he doesn't believe what she's saying,
and she you know, he doesn't trust what she said
as and he's like better off without her. All this stuff,
you know, which we don't get a lot of good
examples of portrayals of younger boys, especially like preteen boys.

(01:01:10):
It's like a you know, tentative time for anyone. So
to cease. You know, his arc be learning to trust
and believe women is really cool, and so that's great.
The father's son's stuff, it's just like, okay, you know,
I guess it's kind of feels like a different movie
in some ways, but well, I do also like that

(01:01:31):
part of his arc is him teaching his new daddy.
He's like teaching him like emotional intelligence and like empathy
a little. He's like, you can't kill people. Like also
like we have feelings, people hurt, people cry, we're afraid,
like he tells. He basically tells, as you pointed out, Jamie,
that he tells the terminator to smile more he does.

(01:01:52):
That's I think that that's a bonus scene. But it's yeah,
I think that might be from the director's cup. But
he doesn't scene where he's like you should smile and
then he's like how do I smile? I was like, oh,
this is uh, It's like, this is not trying to
do this. What's kind of funny that it did? It
is cool? Yeah, where and like the younger boy is
encouraging the older man to be emotionally intelligent and consider

(01:02:16):
other people and their motivations and their lives and you know,
literally their lives, giving them alive. That's lovely, But going
back to his motivation and believing his mom, that was
like what I thought was one of the more compelling
elements of Sarah Connor's character in the second one is
we start from this point of like it feels like
weirdly like pretty modern of she is stuck in this

(01:02:39):
psychiatric ward because people don't believe what she's saying. She
doesn't have enough evidence of what she's saying for people
to believe it, and similar to how they treated Kyle
in the first movie, law enforcement thinks it's easier to
just kind of lock her up and um tell her

(01:03:00):
that she is you know, her mind isn't right, and
she sticks to her truth until what I think is
kind of like a devastating sad scene where we see
there's that like really great Linda Hamilton's moment where we
see a clip of her from like when she first
got there, um screaming like it happened, it happened, which

(01:03:21):
you were just like a fuck, and then we flashed
forward to her, however long later, saying to a medical professional,
I mean the same one from the first movie. Dr
Silberman saying even though we know she doesn't think this
taking it back and being like I was wrong. The
thing I know is the truth is actually not the truth.

(01:03:41):
Now can I see my son? That I thought was
like one of the most emotionally compelling parts of both
movies is like she has to take back her truth
in order to survive. And like I just I thought
that was like a felt very contemporary, and you sort
of see her dealing with even though it's not explicitly stated,

(01:04:03):
but it's you know, like a post traumatic stress narrative
with the dreams that she's having and when she's first
confronted with Arnold Schwarzenegger's face again, and just like, I
don't know, it's like you see her sometimes act a
little bit harshly or a little bit abruptly, but it
is all grounded in this like, well, she's been through

(01:04:25):
so fucking much, she's been so disbelieved even by her
own son, and just like kind of watching her go
on that journey of first of all her son learning
and accepting what was the truth the whole time, and
just her like navigating the like PTSD of what happens
to her in the first movie and in the events
in between it thought was like really compelling, Yeah, for sure,

(01:04:48):
and then the component of like she doesn't have the
evidence to support her truth because a fucking corporation stolen
it is now being used as research to develop the
technology that we'll later kill everybody. Um yeah, I thought
that that scene was super effective where she's like, it

(01:05:10):
makes it seem like she's walking back what she actually believes.
But she's only doing that because she's so smart. If
she says, oh no, I'm feeling better now, I don't
believe this anymore. I made all that stuff up. There's
no evidence because there is no evidence, like there would
be evidence if you know, I had crushed that terminator.
So she's walking it back, but only because she's trying
to trick the psychologist into getting putting the minimum security.

(01:05:35):
I thought it was super effective and I totally agree. Cool. Oh,
I thought was good. One thing that this is. I mean,
I guess this might be another example of it being
well done, even though it's like frustrating, the reality of
the situation is, you know, even though she does, her
son ends up believing her and Dyson ends up believing her,
it's only because she has the evidence all of a sudden.

(01:05:59):
It's never that or like, you know what, I should
have taken seriously what you were saying. There was no
reason not to. I believe you. It's only when she
has the flesh and robot evidence of a terminator and
she can literally peel someone's arm down, like you know.
It's like Greg only truly believes her once he's met

(01:06:20):
a terminator himself, and Dyson only truly believes her when
Arnold Schorgenseninger removes his hand. And so it's which I
think is unfortunately kind of a realistic thing in terms
of like the circumstances under which people believe women, is
no one really believes her until she does have the
heart evidence, just like in the context of believing women,

(01:06:43):
which does seem to be like something that was ahead
of its time in like demanding that. It does feel
unfortunately kind of on point that the two people who
end up believing her, and I guess you would include
um Dyson's family and this as well, even though they
don't have very large roles. They don't believe it until
until they see it. Yeah, for sure. So another very

(01:07:06):
cathartic moment for me in the movie is when Dr
Silberman sees the bad terminator coming through the gate in
a way that only a like liquid metal robot would
be able to do, and so he sees it, and
you know, he's watching this whole scene unfold where you
know this other terminator is there, and then his mouth

(01:07:28):
drops a gape because he's like, oh fuck, she was
telling you the whole time, like yes, fucking believe women.
And there's like a similar theme explored in Aliens from
at the beginning of that movie is a very similar
like I swear to God this is happening, and then
no one blazes her until so another Mr Jim he

(01:07:54):
is effectively explored here, I agree to just go back
to that hospital. Seen the first time I saw that
scene where she is escaping from the hospital, I just
remember feeling so empowered and like energized by it, Like
I was like, you know this team girls, like fuck, yes,
go Sarah because it's so cool. Around the same time

(01:08:17):
in the movie, John is telling Arnold he was like,
we gotta go get my mom, Like we gotta go
rescue her. I order you to do this, like even
though it's dangerous and maybe the other terminator will be there,
like we have to go save her, So like it's
set up in a way that's like maybe they're going
to have to like literally go in and break her out,
but she's already basically broken herself out, which I love

(01:08:41):
the thought that she doesn't have to be rescued, um,
but could you get the feeling that if they hadn't
showed up she would get out anyways? Yes, she was
like well on her way out and just kind of
I just want to do like a little beat by
beat breakdown of this because I just love it so
much where she is putting on this facade of tending
to be just so drugged up that she's basically not cognizant,

(01:09:05):
And she very subtly steals a little paper clip and
hides it in her mouth, and then after she's been
locked up in her restraints in her room, she like
spits out the paper clip, uses it to unlock the
restraints and then the door. Then she has like broken
off the handle of a broom and she uses that
to beat the ship out of the guy who has

(01:09:26):
been horrible to her, who has beaten her and ligged
her face electrocuted her. So she breaks his face and
then drags him and locks him in a closet, takes
his nightstick, takes the psychologist hostage, you know, with the
whole like drain of like liquid drain cleaner thingking brutal. Yes,

(01:09:47):
I loved it. And then just like that whole sequence
where she's like calling the shots and doing whatever it
takes to get out of there. Yeah, I was just like, oh, man,
like so cool. Yeah, think, I mean that whole scene
is so exciting and cool and also like completely like
there's no Mary Sue element to it because you know

(01:10:07):
that she's been planning this for so long and she's
been like bulking up and very solitary confinement, like she
has developed every single skill she needs to pull off
this fucking incredible sequence. It's so cool, right because it's
like it's a bunch of different things. It's us seeing
a woman be like tough and smart and tactical and

(01:10:30):
just like straight up kick ass in a way that
is not sexualized because in a lot of like action
franchises that do feature women who are like kicking ass,
like Vagina, it's the it's the pussy slam that we see,
but it's it's we don't see anything like that with
Sarah Connor. It's us seeing her escape from this wrongful

(01:10:51):
imprisonment because she hasn't been believed and she's basically saying
like just a giant fuck you to all the people
who have not leaved her for all these years, which
is crazy cathartic. It's so cool, it's so cool, and
it's just it was such an empowering, awesome scene too,
and I love it. Just Yeah, every time I see
this movie, I'm always just like, yes, and we don't

(01:11:14):
see her fall into the women are only allowed to
use household items as weapons here, Sarah Sarah, I mean
she she uses what's around in the hospital, but I
feel like that makes perfect sense, and she but then
she takes the nights the rest of the movie, right, right,
and so like that. I mean, it truly is just

(01:11:36):
like she's being treated like an action hero is treated,
which is great. So just I guess to kind of
close on the mommy stuff because I feel like we've
been alluding to it quite a bit and it takes
a larger role in the second movie. Again, it's kind
of necessary to the narrative because the kid exists now. Um,

(01:11:57):
but there is that moment that happens right after she
it seems like she's going to kill Dyson, and then
she's like, j K, I mommy, I can't kill you.
Slash a lot of stuff. She's human. They're like sitting
in Dyson's kitchen with his whole with it, with his wife,
uh and him and good terminator and John. She's kind
of railing on Dyson for trying to build another terminator.

(01:12:21):
She says, how are you supposed to know? Fucking men
like you built the hydrogen bomb, men like you thought
it up. You think you're so creative. You don't know
what it's like to really create something, to create a life,
to feel it growing inside you. All you know how
to do is death in destruction. And then Greg cuts
her off and it's like mom, yucky um, which I

(01:12:43):
don't know. I mean, I think that there's a lot
of different reads of that line. There's a read of
it I think that is like very empowering and really
hitting the nail of the like what James Cameron is
trying to do with her character right on the head
of like women with a narrow definition of what a
woman is, but like women can be badass and like

(01:13:06):
they give life. That's so cool, Like there's there's a
read of it that's very empowering, and I think that
there's a read of it that's like a little reductive
with with time and you know, just progress. I don't
think it was intended to be reductive at all, but
you know, it's like, that's the only way she can
define a woman's power is through mommy stuff, and so

(01:13:30):
that you know, there are moments and and for its time. Again,
it's like that you do not get a better female
action hero than Sarah Connor. But there are times where
I feel like it leans a little too heavy on
the crutch of like and her motivation is still woman's stuff,
you know, right, Definitely, I definitely agree with that. But

(01:13:52):
on the other hand, I can also see women who
are mothers also feeling very empowered by Sarah Connor just
by the mere fact of, like, she's a mom and
she's also a complete badass. Because mother characters in movies
are often depicted as like being just like naggy shrewy

(01:14:15):
types of characters or just like, you know, just a
typical kind of mom so to see, which is literally
how Dyson's wife is portrayed. True. So to see, like
a mother character who is also extremely tough. I think
is like representation that we don't get to see that often. Again,
I think it goes back to that thing we were

(01:14:36):
talking about before, where it's like, we have nothing against
mothers and motherhood, but for that to be the only
option of a motivation is where I find it to
be possibly reductive. Is like there's no even in kill Bill,
a movie that is allegedly about revenge, it's not really

(01:14:56):
just about revenge. It's also about motherhood. So it just
I mean, I think that there are more options now
and that this movie was important and pushing stuff forward,
but there yeah, I I do still feel like that
read of it, like there's a like I was rolling
my eyes just a little bit for sure. That all

(01:15:17):
being said in terms of like Sarah's badassery and like
all the cool things we get to see her do,
and to me, the very drastic, stark change between her
character in the first movie and the second movie is
not only like cool to see this more empowered and
badassed version of this character, but it also like tracks

(01:15:40):
very well for what the story requires of it. So
like I so it makes sense for the story, which
as a screenwriter, um, I don't like to mention it,
but like that I very much appreciated. Um. However, there
was something that I couldn't help. But notice if we're
kind of comparing some of the opening sequences of Terminator

(01:16:02):
One and Terminator Too, where in Terminator one, the terminators
in hot pursuit and Sarah needs Kyle Reyes to save
her and get her away from the terminator and all
this stuff. But in T two, John, a k greg
who is a child, but a male child, is able

(01:16:25):
to get away on his own for a little while
his motorbike. So I'm like, okay, well she also had
a mope. She did. But at the same time, John
has been raised by his mother. His mom but in
the context of like she was always telling him, like,
you're going to be a military leader, like you need

(01:16:46):
to learn combat and weapons and engines and like all
this stuff. So he was more equipped than Sarah was
to like, like he knew about terminators, like and he
probably was like, Oh, this thing that's coming to kill me,
that's probably a terminator. I have to get away. But
it's still just the optics of like this child is

(01:17:07):
able to like escape this terminator, but a grown woman
needs all his help totally. I don't know. They both
have mopeds. It's like, why is one more capable than
the other. Should we talk about Dyson and his wife? Yes,
as we already sort of touched on a little bit.
I'm a fan of his arc in the second movie,

(01:17:29):
except for the very end. I don't think you needed
to die. But I like there was more character written
for him than I assumed there would be, honestly because
he sort of set up as someone who Sarah Connor
would kill or that good Terminator would kill. But because
of the progress that those characters are already making, they
don't kill him, and then we get to see progress

(01:17:49):
on his part of being like, I see what I've done,
I see the error of and like the tunnel mindedness
of what I was doing. How can I help? How
can I reverse it? And so you know his arc
I liked, Yeah, that's always lovely, Um I do, I mean,
it's worth mentioning. He has his wife, her name, she

(01:18:09):
is named as Teresa. That's all we know. That's all
we know. She's a pretty much a tertiary character, so
I guess I mean she she didn't have to be,
but that's how the movie does frame her. I think
it's also worth noting that he's one of the very
few people of color in the movie franchise the franchise

(01:18:30):
at this point. Yeah, but the fact that he is
like a tech genius, like a person of color and
stem was representation we were not getting very much of,
especially in this era. UM, so that was pretty cool.
But yes, I don't like, still the only die the
character we know the best in this movie that is

(01:18:51):
killed off. Besides like the villain. Yeah, yeah, I feel
like that character could have been brought back in sequels
and like used his like tech genius brain to like
help and stuff. Well there, Yeah, it was like, there's
no reason in my head why he shouldn't have joined
their team. It seems like that was what he was doing.
I think he was killed twenty minutes later. Um, which

(01:19:12):
again just like feeds into whether it was written intentionally
that way or not, just feeds into some of the
horror movie trips you see pop up in these movies,
which is that the person of color always dies and
it's always the first to die. Um. Even though it's
for Diyson, it's pretty significantly into the movie. But he's
he's the character we know best who dies and that sucks. Yes,

(01:19:38):
so I wish I mean, yeah, I wish we just
Dyson Justice for Dyson. Damn it, I got, I got
a little bit of context, corner. Let's hear it for
this whole. For the for these two movies. We'll start
with Linda Hamilton's because the most recent Terminator movie is
the first one. She's returned four since Terminator two, and

(01:19:58):
she had some thoughts and how Sarah was portrayed in
the first one as opposed to the second one. I
guess the first one she went into it. I mean,
no one thought it was going to be a huge hit,
the first one, and so she went into it just
like it was a job. She described Sarah in the
first movie as quote so wholesome, my good puke unquote,
and that she didn't feel particularly empowered by the character

(01:20:21):
until quote that transition from damsel in distress to all right,
she's got to pull everything she's got together to get
Kyle up for the on your feet soldier. And so
she said she was generally unimpressed with the first Terminator
until she saw it and then was like, oh, there's something,
there's something to this. And she also saw some metaphorical

(01:20:42):
importance to the sex scene in the first movie where
she's on top, which she felt was like a metaphor
for um where that character is headed. So I thought
that was that was cool. She also in regards to
T two, there was I think kind of an interesting
strange that you know, everyone can feel any number of

(01:21:02):
ways about, but it's hair related. Um. So this is
from an interview with the Hollywood Reporter from like a
couple of weeks ago, So it goes like this. Cameron
originally proposed that Hamilton's chop off her golden brown locks
after Sarah's escape from an asylum. She argued successfully mean
Lynda Hamilton's for a ponytail instead, because, as she puts it, quote,

(01:21:23):
you don't have to look a guy to be strong unquote.
For some reason, I won that argument, she recalls, it
wasn't even a vanity thing. And then later on, when
she became this icon of strength and you know the
legend of Sarah Connor, I realized that it's only because
I didn't cut my hair that she became what she
did in the minds and hearts of the audience, that
this was a picture of feminine strength. I would love
to say, oh, I was so ahead of my time,

(01:21:44):
but it really was just an instinct that it wasn't right.
And then she goes on to roast Demi Moore's haircut
in g I Jane. So I mean we, I mean,
we know that the Baltic stwoman is in charge. This
is a rule that is held for three years now.
But I thought it was interesting that she wanted to
make that choice because I think in the case of

(01:22:05):
some action movies written by men, that is a like
a writing shorthand that is like to indicate, like I mean,
and also it's like practical to get hair out of
the way. But um, I thought it was interesting that
she like made a stand on her character, especially against
James Cameron, which gets us into Oh also, Linda Hamilton's

(01:22:27):
has done more activism for the bipolar community than most
people have. Great, I mean, just to touch on a
little bit more, Um, yeah, I think there was for
a while and even almost you know, even as recently
as like mad Max Fury Road. But like the shorthand
for like a really strong badass female character is like
chop all her hair off or a shaver head kind

(01:22:49):
of thing. And as someone who recently chopped off all
my hair. You can't stop kidding people. Yeah, I mean
I see what she's saying. I think that's somewhat of
a like, I don't know, Like, yes, I think it
is important to see like maybe more traditionally feminine, like
strong female protagonists in addition to seeing like like I

(01:23:11):
don't think like a woman who maybe presents as more masculine.
It's become a bit tropy. But I also don't think
there's anything wrong with that either, So like, yeah, I
don't know, of course I think that I think or
I mean, who knows. I feel like what she is.
I mean because partially the baldist woman in charge rule
comes from the trope of writers using it a lot

(01:23:34):
that way exactly, But but there's also it's rooted in
some military reality, Like there's a lot of like it's
based in some truth and some like silly like male
writers tend to do this a lot. But it's like now,
I don't know, I mean, it's I feel like it's
kind of neither here nor there um and like everyone
should just be able to have their hair the way
they want it. Yeah, yeah, and when you know, gender

(01:23:57):
is very fluid, Yeah, and it shouldn't be too suggest
that like short hair can't be considered feminine like that
also not true, but I you know, I thought it
was worth mentioning. Get around to Jimmy Cameron. Jimmy Cam
legendarily horrible person to work with, specifically not like a.

(01:24:19):
I mean, I guess it depends on how you look
at it. He is a nightmare on set. I think
he's very much an example of male director who can
get away with fucking murder, doing things that female director
of any amount of experience would get fired and blacklisted
for doing. And uh, I would also apply that to
really any marginalized community where it is there is some

(01:24:43):
truth to like you only have so many shots, um,
whereas white male directors with a with a specific style
can just fucking get away with murder. Some examples of
things he's done in ways he's been described. On the
set of Avatar, he would take people's cell phones if
they were out, and he would nail gun them to
the wall. Um, let's see. Andrew Gumbel of The Independence

(01:25:04):
says Cameron is quote a nightmare to work with studios
fear his habit of straying over schedules and over budget
He's notorious on set for uncompromising and dictatorial manner, as
well as his flaming temper. Leonardo DiCaprio told Esquire magazine, quote,
when somebody felt a different way on set, there was
a confrontation. Uh, and what is it like? It's putting

(01:25:27):
it lightly? Yeah, well, you know, Uh, Leonardo DiCaprio is
not necessarily you know, you have to think that Leonardo DiCaprio,
for the amount of time he spends around twenty three
year olds, would be more woke than he is. But um,
it's just not true. Speaking of their experiences on filming Titanic,
Kate Winslett said that she admired Cameron but quote, there

(01:25:47):
were times I was genuinely frightened of him. Unquote. He's
just a notoriously scary guy. Linda Hamilton's also attested to this,
where she was I think generally very like to his
whims on set, and then the one time she asked
to see playback of a scene she had just done,
he screamed at her in front of everyone and they

(01:26:09):
later got married, which she said was the biggest regret
of her life. So what can you do? Uh? And
then just a brief one more thing, as it pertains
to Sarah Connor specifically. You may recall that James Cameron
made some stupid as comments when Wonder Woman came out,

(01:26:31):
and he just really couldn't take someone else making movies
about women, and he was very reductive, and the way
he described it, he said that gal Gadot was too
beautiful and that she was objectified and that she was
you know, and and you can view that however you want.
The point is that James Caramon is like, my female

(01:26:53):
protagonist is the best female protagonist, which means that he
only thinks female protagonists can be one way, and there's
only one way to be a female action hero. It's
pitting women against each other for no reason. It's egotistical,
it's annoying, and also it's incorrect because he says in
twenty sevent TV says quote, Sarah Connor was not a

(01:27:15):
beauty icon. She was strong, she was troubled, she was
a terrible mother, and she earned the respect of the
audience through pure grit. Well, there may be some truth
to that if you look back at the way that
James Cameron describes Sarah Connor and his first screenplay. That's
not true, It's just he's just like a he's just
kind of a stupid ass. Yes, I agree. I have

(01:27:37):
a little bit of a little bit more specifics on
this part of the context corner when he made those
comments originally about Wonder Woman, and he also said that well,
because this character was so sexualized, therefore the film is
not groundbreaking exactly right, like okay? And then Patty Jenkins,
the director of Wonder Woman, responded by saying, James Cameron's

(01:27:59):
inability to understand what Wonder Woman is or stands for
to women all over the world is unsurprising to me.
Though he is a great filmmaker, he is not a woman.
Strong women are great. His praise of my film Monster
and our portrayal of a strong yet damaged woman was
so appreciated. But if women have to always be hard,
tough and troubled to be strong, then we aren't free

(01:28:21):
to be multidimensional or celebrate an icon of women everywhere
because she is attractive and loving, then we haven't come
very far, have we. I believe women can and should
be everything, just like male lead characters should be, and
there's no right and wrong kind of powerful woman in
the massive female audience who made the film a hit
it is can surely choose and judge their own icons

(01:28:43):
of progress. And then James Cameron doubled down on his
previous and said about gal Gado all the like, but whatever,
she was miss Israel and she's dropped dead gorgeous and
that's not great and ground uh. And then he said
added about Sarah Connor in Terminator to saying she wasn't

(01:29:05):
there to be liked or ogled, but she was central
and the audience loved her by the end of the film.
And it's just like, you don't get it. I like
Patty Jenkins is responsible, Like she shouldn't have even had
to say anything. It's just like it's just another example
of like he made it about him for no reason.
No one asked him too, it was in response to

(01:29:26):
nothing like. It was just like he just made it
about him because that's what he's like. Yeah, And it
just sucks that he is like one of the very
influential directors in Hollywood who is a straight white man
who is trying to, it seems, attempt to include women
in meaningful ways in his stories, but he still has

(01:29:47):
a very narrow view of what a like strong female
protagonist should and could be. I hope that he has,
you know, demonstrates I'm not I'm not going to set
my watch by it. It like that was incredibly recent
and completely fucking toned up into double down. It's just
like it's embarrassing for him, and um, he should be ashamed. Indeed,

(01:30:12):
the last thing I had to say in in this
context corner is that it appears that the Sarah Connor
character is very much based on James Cameron's mother. Did
you know, well, we didn't know for today that James
Cameron is Canadian. I suspect we didn't know this because
he's notoriously mean, so no one would be like, he's
probably Canadian, but he is Canadian and in a profile

(01:30:37):
of him, and this is I wouldn't recommend this article.
It was in Vanity Fair in two thousand nine when
Avatar was coming out and was called James Cameron secret
feminished and it is just praising woke icon James Cameron,
like who cares? But the interesting passage concerning his mother
goes as follows, quote Cameron's mother surely is Sarah Connor

(01:30:59):
trapped in the body be of a Canadian grandmother. I
don't know why Jim thinks I'm so reliant. Surely shrugged
to me, professing bewilderment that she might be the inspiration
for the gutty maternal characters and the Terminator in Aliens. Well,
I can take a guess. While a mother with three
kids under age eight, James was the oldest of what
would ultimately be five, Surely joined the Canadian Women's Army Corps,

(01:31:20):
happily trooping off on weekends and fatigues and combat boots
to assemble a rifle while blindfolded and marked through field
in the pouring rain. At a time and place, Ontario, Canada,
in the fifties and sixties when most women set aside
their personal pursuits for the sole ambition of homemaking. Surely
was a painter and attended courses in subjects like geology
and astronomy. Often she brought along her oldest son. So

(01:31:43):
I think that that is that's lovely. So that makes
the first Terminator movie even more confusing, because again it
seems like he couldn't envision a world where a woman
would be important because she's the one who has military
training and combat training in leadership tendencies. But his mother

(01:32:07):
was in the military. Right at least the course corrects
on the second one. I don't know, I mean, but
I was well speaking of course, correcting what may I share? Um?
So these are spoilers for Terminator Dark Fate, So if
you would like to avoid these spoilers, skip ahead about

(01:32:28):
a minute and a half. Okay, I did see Terminator
Dark Fate, Bragg and I will say that that movie
corrects the idea that women are only important because they
are mothers of the important men, because in this movie,
the character being protected is Danny, a Latino X woman.

(01:32:49):
She is the person who ends up becoming the leader
of the human resistance against the machines. Also, the protector
this time is also a woman. She is a an
enhanced human named Grace, played by Mackenzie Davis and then
Sarah Connor Limbda Hamilton's is back, and so you see

(01:33:10):
a bunch of scenes with Danny, Grace, and Sarah all
working together and getting stuff done. Now, Grace and Sarah
seemed to hate each other for what feels like kind
of no reason. So that's a little whatever, But the
movie does, and the female characters aren't necessarily well developed.

(01:33:31):
And I just had some other issues with the movie,
but the movie does pass the BacT to test a bunch.
So there's just some of the some of the mistakes
that I think the earlier Terminator films did. The Dark
Fate attempts to correct the day. At the end of
the day, I just want women to write the movie

(01:33:52):
and for people to stop rebooting franchises. Yes, because nothing's
ever going to be as good as Terminator. To exactly
stop trying and let's all move on with our lives. Okay,
I think that's all I had. That's all I had.
Do these movies pass the Bechdel test, the first one,

(01:34:15):
I feel like I think the first one might. It
might because we've got Sarah talking to Ginger, her roommate,
and we have Sarah talking to I believe the characters
named in the credit as Nancy, who's the other waitress. Yes,
I don't think we learned her name in the in
the movie, but that other So the server at the

(01:34:37):
diner tells Sarah about the news broadcast about another Sarah
Connor getting murdered. Um, does Sarah respond, I can't totally remember.
Sarah does respond. It's kind of I mean, it's kind
of those throwaway. I mean, it's kind of too throwaway
to account. But they say hi to each other at
one point, you're late HIU. Then there's that moment where

(01:34:58):
Sarah kind of responds, I mean, I don't know if
it's necessarily with words, because it's like, oh, you know,
like one of those it's like they're talking to each other.
It's about the murder of other women. But you know
if maybe it maybe it counts. I don't know, Yeah,
that one, I feel like I wouldn't necessarily count those
because we don't ever learn that character's name, I think.
But then Sarah and Ginger do talk a little bit,

(01:35:21):
but these conversations go something like Ginger says they're looking
at each other in the mirror, and Ginger says, like
better than the mortal man deserves. And then Sarah kisses
Ginger on the cheek, and then later she's like, Ginger,
have you seen Pugsley, my feminist icon iguana man? But
he's a Pug's a male iguana. So responds and says,

(01:35:44):
not recently, did you check the messages? And then they
talk about the guy who cancels on Sarah so that
doesn't pass us, And then she says, I'm going to
a movie, kiddo, okay, Ginger says, and then Sara says,
you and Matt have a good time. But we have
two lines there, so maybe I don't know. If it
does pass, it's it's the skin of its teeth. And

(01:36:07):
then what about what you have for two? I think no,
I think two does not pass. There was one moment
where I thought Teresa and Sarah we're almost talking, but
then it turns out Teresa was talking to her husband, right,
although Sarah does say to Teresa, get down on the floor, bitch,
fucking down now, and Teresa screams, so does it pass? Good? Um,

(01:36:29):
so you know it doesn't. I don't know which is
I think again, like you almost and not to say that.
You know, Sarah Connor is characterized in the same way
that Princess Leah is, but just that tendency of like
there shall be no more than one strong woman in
any movie, like that rule kind of holds in at
least these two movies. Even though they the strong female

(01:36:52):
character you get is great, there's no women for her
to talk to. New So that's that I thing. What
would you rate the movie? The two? I feel like
we got to split it, right. Yeah, they're very different
than the way they treat their female protagonists. I think, yes,
I agree. Okay, So for Terminator one, I think I

(01:37:17):
would only give this like a one and a half
or two maybe just because of the whole like, you're
only important because you're a mummy of a man who's important,
and like she's not characterized enough. We don't know anything
about her aspirations, she's not equipped with any skills that
make her able to contribute to her own safety or

(01:37:40):
of like getting away from the Terminator, different stuff like that. See,
I feel like it's only like a one and a
half kind of thing. The Terminator too, I would double
it and give it a three because it's still just
by the nature of you know, sequels and storytelling. The

(01:38:02):
different hang ups I have about the first movie just
carry over into Terminator to you know, the whole like
very strong emphasis on but I'm a mummy and that's
my major motivation and stuff like that. But because she
we see, you know, all of her general badassery, I

(01:38:23):
think I'm gonna go a one and a half and
then a three respectively. I'm gonna go a one and four.
I think one I really don't have any love at
all for the first Terminator movie. I think that her
character is like severely underwritten. And then I like the
growth she shows in the last act of the movie,

(01:38:45):
but I don't feel that it's more than uh nipples
worth of growth. Um. I don't like that she's told
the person she's going to become, she can't name her
own child, she's defined by her motherhood, etcetera, etcetera. I
you know, and again, I know that people are going
to roast me, but I'm just like, I'm just not
attached to these movies. One nipple for the first one, uh,

(01:39:05):
and then I think I would go I I again,
like you were saying, I have similar issues with her
being defined by her motherhood in the second movie. But
I think just kind of based off of how it
does seem like, especially in this gigantically popular because the
second movie did even better than the first movie. It
made over five billion dollars and it was a very

(01:39:28):
expensive you were saying, it was the most expensive movie
made to date and it's still doubled its budget over
And I think seeing a character like Sarah Connor kick
Ass have those moments of Catharsis have the idea of
believing women effectively tackled in a huge, mainstream blockbuster movie.

(01:39:50):
Is yeah, I mean first time, that's like huge, And
like I wish that there was less defining her by
her motherhood. I wish that there was less I need
to find a father for my boy. But I just yeah,
I think it's so It lets her be so much
more and and definitely paved the way for more effectively

(01:40:10):
written female action heroes. It's gonna go one in four,
no factions for Jamie Tenney. Well there you have the Folks,
the Terminator one in two episode and our three year
anniversary episode, so you know, happy three years once again, Jamie.

(01:40:33):
Thank you. Here's to five million. There's so many more
movies to do. Um. Well, hey Jamie, where can people
follow you on the internet? Oh, you can follow me
at Jamie We never do this, we don't still with
our inniversion. We don't have a guest so our Time

(01:40:54):
to Shine. Can follow me on Twitter at Jamie Loftest.
Help you can follow me and it's rum at Jamie
christ Superstar. By the time this has released, you listen
to my podcast about being in Mensa for a year
called my year in mensa. Uh, and that's I think.
But what do you have to say kit another plugcast?
I sure do. It's called Sludge an American Healthcare Story.

(01:41:17):
Season one has wrapped because luckily I am now sludge free,
but season two will be coming out sometime in the
new year, so check that out. You can follow me
on Twitter and Instagram at Caitlin Durante. And as for
our podcasts plugs, you can follow us on social media

(01:41:39):
at beecktel Cast. You can go to our Matreon our
Patreon aka Matreon at patreon dot com, slash pecktel Cast.
It's five dollars a month. It gets you to bonus
episodes plus our entire backlog of bonus episodes. Merch Got
March at t flo dot com, slash the backdel asked.

(01:42:00):
Holidays are coming up gang if you if you want
to treat yourself, treat someone you love by all means,
We've got all the designs. We also have our seasonal designs.
If you want feminist icon baby Grinch, No, I think
it's queer baby queer. I'm so sorry queer. I call
baby grinch or just a simple grinch in heels. Text
free Grinch as well um Or or any of our

(01:42:24):
our designs. Feminist icon, feminist like all from Molina, Queer Icon,
all the classics. Indeed, they're all there for you. And hey, Jamie, Yes,
Asta Levista, Baby, Asta Levista, Caitlin, Bye bye

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