The Woman King with Oyeronke Oyebanji

This week, woman kings Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Oyeronke Oyebanji discuss The Woman King. 

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
On the Bechdecast, the questions ask if movies have women
and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and
Beast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hey, Jamie, Hey Caitlin, it's me your general of the
army that you're in, and also your mom.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
I mean, just so you know, what is a movie
if not about mothers and daughters? Gusts O, Kaitlyn. I
to truly dream of the day where you say turn
around and then you cut my shoulder and pull a
shark's tooth out. That's how we'll know, yeah, that this
was really meant to be, that this was some real

(00:48):
second act shit going on. Yeah, yeah, wait for it,
wait for Yes. I will keep my shark tooth in
place until the day comes, thank you, but I will
be ready. Great. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Drante,
and this is our show where we examine movies through
an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel test simply as
a jumping off point. Yes, which of course is a
media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, originally found

(01:22):
in her comic Dykes to Watch Out for a classic,
intended as just sort of like a bit a joke,
and it has since been used as this media metric
that has many different versions. Yes, ours is as follows.
Two people of a marginalized gender must have names. They

(01:44):
must speak to each other about something other than a man.

Speaker 3 (01:48):
Such as a conversation about mother tearing a shark's tooth
out of her daughter's shoulder. That that's a really excellent
pass because those characters have names and that's a very
impactful exchange of dialogue.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:04):
Only reason we say that, as we've been saying for
years on the show, is because there's so many movies
that people will be like, well, it does pass, and
it's like oh, waitress being like hi, and then Nicole
Kibben's like hi, and they're like hmm, what was that?

Speaker 2 (02:18):
And then anyways, and then Nicole Kidman says, we come
to this place.

Speaker 3 (02:22):
For imagine and that's impactful. Yes, that's true impact.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
So that's our show now, you know.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
And today we have a very popularly requested episode. I
think we've been getting requests for this movie since the
second the trailer dropped, which true makes a lot of sense,
and we're very excited to be covering it. It's The
Woman King Day on the Bechdel Cast. We're here, we
did it, and we have a wonderful guest.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
We certainly do who we found through a piece that
she wrote on NPR entitled The Woman King Speaks loud
and clear to this jerry and feminist. She works in
global health. She's a senior fellow at the Aspen Institute.
It's oy Oye Banji oh.

Speaker 4 (03:08):
Go Hi, Gathlene, Hi, Jamie. Really really really thrilled to
be here. We're so excited to have you same here.
I mean, it's my first time recording a podcast, so
I'm looking forward to seeing how I do or hearing
how I do.

Speaker 5 (03:23):
But really lovely to be here.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
You're going to do great, already doing great. Can you
tell us a little bit before we talk about the well,
I guess this kind of goes into the discussion of
how did this piece come about for you, the MPR piece.

Speaker 4 (03:40):
It's a very interesting question, and I'm not sure if
to give the honest or not honest view, But I mean,
obviously the Woman King came out and there was a
lot of chatter on social media and everywhere about this
movie about black women. And then I got a request
from someone at the Aspen Institute to ask if I

(04:01):
would be interested in writing about The Woman King. And
I thought it was a good way to watch the
movie because I would usually watch movies like two years
after they've been released and like the last one amongst
my friends to watch movies. But this time, I mean, obviously,
there was a lot of chatter about The Woman King.
There was a lot of three people were extremely excited.

(04:22):
My friends in Nigeria couldn't see it at the time
because it was showing in cinema here in the UK
and London, where I leave, but not in Nigeria yet,
so people were pushing me from home to go set
immediately and tell them about it. And of course the
opportunity to write about it came up. So everything just
you know, jelled together into one. And then I found
myself going into the cinema one night after work, again

(04:46):
quite unusual of me. I would usually wait till the weekend,
but I couldn't wait till the weekend for this one.

Speaker 3 (04:51):
And then I.

Speaker 4 (04:51):
Decided to yep, I went on, watched the movie, loved it,
and indeed wrote a piece about it.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
And we loved it, and we loved the movie and
and we're all in agreement that the woman King rocks.

Speaker 3 (05:05):
It's really good. Kaitlyn, what's your I mean, I gets like, yeah,
what's your history with the movie? Other than I think
we both saw it the week it came out. That's
pretty much it.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:13):
I went with a group of friends of the cast,
such as Sammy Junio and Daniel Perez. Awesome, and we
just went together and we had a blast. And I'm
so happy that it's on Netflix now and is very accessible,
and I've watched it a couple of times since then.

Speaker 3 (05:34):
How about you, Jamie. I bravely went alone, I was,
which is how I got a but I thank you
so much. But no, I did see it shortly after
it came out. It was It's really good theater experience
if you like go at night and everyone's fucking pumped
to be there. Oh yeah, it is. To quote one

(05:57):
of the greatest film critics of our time, Harry's, the
movie felt like a movie. It certainly did. It really
felt like a go to the theater type film and
there's no getting around it. But yeah, no, I thought
it was a really really fun well not I mean,
I guess fun is kind of a but there are
moments in this movie that are really fun. Like there's

(06:17):
such a huge range of emotion and I can't I
kind of as I was leaving originally, I'm like, I
can't remember the last time. I mean, there's a lot
of feelings of I can't remember the last time or
the first time that I've seen a movie quite like this,
but even just a big sweeping historical epic, I just
hadn't seen one in a really long time, and there's

(06:37):
just there's so much going on. I'm really excited to
talk about it. And I was aware. I feel like,
because this is such a recent movie, there were kind
of two waves of discourse that surrounded this movie, and
I before researching this episode, I was only really aware
of one. I was definitely well aware of Gina Prince
bythewould Be and the film in general being shut out

(07:00):
of the Oscars, and the very very needed discussion around
black artists in general, but especially black women being shut
out of big institutional awards shows like the Oscars. But
there was also a historical conversation that it didn't come
across my feed on mister Elon's website. But I'm excited

(07:24):
to talk about it after we talk about the movie
because I think there's a lot of yeah, I guess
just speaking to like the historical epic of it all,
there's I feel like there's I mean, I can't speak
to this specifically because it's like historical epics don't tend
to be like my faves. This is kind of a
huge outlier, but I feel like they're largely considered to

(07:44):
be like truth adjacent maybe but often right not.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
And we're also about to record an episode on r
r R which takes fright yes billion liberties with historical accuracy. Yeah,
this movie movie follows history a little more closely, but
also takes the Titanic approach, where it's like this happened,
but let's introduce some characters who didn't exist, right.

Speaker 3 (08:11):
Well, I'm excited to talk about it because yeah, well
we'll get into that in a little bit. But anyways,
I saw the movie. I really really enjoyed it, and
it's just as fun to watch at home. I don't know. Yeah,
I'm also excited that it's on Netflix and everyone can
watch it. If you haven't watched it, get your shit together,
serious time to watch it. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (08:31):
So I think it's just on Netflix in the US
by the way, Oh is.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
It not in the UK?

Speaker 4 (08:37):
No, it's not in the UK, certainly not in Nigeria.
So yeah, that's a real shame. Yeah, it's not freely
available on Netflix for the rest of the world.

Speaker 5 (08:46):
Yet.

Speaker 3 (08:47):
Well gustrating, I know, I know, Okay, we were just
being US centric. Sorry about it? Classic American bad.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
Well shall I do the recap? Yes, and we'll go
from there.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
I'm John Boyega. I have to give you permission to
do anything because I am man.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
I am mister king, and yes you may, Oh, thank
you so much.

Speaker 3 (09:16):
Oh why do we need him? Anyways? I mean, we
need John Boyega, but why do we need kings? But
why do we need kings? Exactly?

Speaker 5 (09:21):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
I will place a trigger warning for rape and sexual
assault here at the top of the recap. The story
takes place in West Africa. I believe the year is
eighteen twenty three. We get some voiceover with backstory about
the Kingdom of Dahome and it's new king, Gezo. Dahome's enemy,

(09:45):
the Oyo Empire, has joined forces with the Mahi people,
and together they have been raiding Dahomie villages and selling
captives to European slavers.

Speaker 3 (09:58):
Right away, like right as the movie started, I don't know,
I was kind of struck by like there is like
I know that Star Wars doesn't own the crawl, but
like there is like a historical crawl to give the
audience just an idea of like where we are and
who we're with. And I feel like we see a

(10:18):
lot of big movies that take place within this time period,
and I think it does like speak to how few
movies have taken place in Africa whatsoever, because it's like, yeah,
as an audience member, I super super needed that context.
But if you're seeing a movie that is placed in
a similar time period and it's you know, like a
Jane Austen adaptation, they're just like here we are where

(10:41):
we are, assuming we know where you are, because this
is the history we prioritize teaching for sure.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yes, So we learn about Dahomie villages being raided, but
the Dahomie have a powerful weapon to fight back, which
is an elite army of female soldiers called the Agogi
led by General Naniska.

Speaker 3 (11:04):
It's so exciting to see them appear. At the beginning
my theater I was in, they were like everyone was
so bumped.

Speaker 2 (11:12):
It's very exciting because the movie opens on General Naniska,
who's played by Viola Davis, and her Agoji warriors attacking
a group of Mahi men and freeing the people who
were being held captive. We meet a few of the
other warriors, like Amenza played by Shila a Team Amazing,

(11:33):
and Izogi played by Lashana Lynch. They all return to
the Kingdom where we meet Now played by Tussobidu, a
young woman whose parents are trying to arrange a marriage
for her, but she does not want to be an
obedient wife who puts up with a husband's abuse. Because

(11:57):
of that, she is seen as worthless and insolent, so
her father gives her to the King.

Speaker 3 (12:05):
I learned when I was doing some historical research. So most,
I mean the majority of these characters, I think, with
the exception of the King and one of the I
think Portuguese Slave Traders is based on a real person,
but most of the Agoji women are based on like
sort of an amalgamation. But Naniska and now we were

(12:29):
Those are like references to actual Egoji warriors who existed
and were seen, uh you know, being really good at war.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
Like I.

Speaker 3 (12:43):
Was like, I wait, I don't know how to talk
about military stuff. I don't know what the fuck I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (12:46):
Really good at war, that's correct?

Speaker 3 (12:49):
I mean, say, like the Agoji, if they're really good
at one thing, it's it's war and making me go, ah,
it's exciting.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
So Zogi take now we under her wing. She shows
her around the palace and now he joins the group
of women who will train and basically like audition to
become warriors of the Agoji. Meanwhile, Oyo soldiers led by
their new General Oba Ade played by Jimmy Adukoya, who

(13:23):
is particularly vicious. He discovers the men that Naniska and
her warriors killed earlier, and General Oba is not happy
about this, especially that his men were killed by women,
because he's mister patriarchy.

Speaker 5 (13:43):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (13:44):
Back in Dahome, we meet King Gezo played by John Boyega,
which is great is for I think everyone and our eyeballs. Yeah, yes,
where thrill. He meets with his counsel and they are
deciding how to proceed with their enemies if they should
go to war or not, and Naniska and Amenza are like, hey,

(14:08):
we should stop participating in the slave trade and focus
on harvesting and selling palm oil because the Kingdom of
Dahome tends to sell their enemy captives to European slavers. Meanwhile,
Nawi and the others learn about the Agoji, how they're

(14:31):
fierce warriors. They are not allowed to take husbands or
bear children, but they will be respected, their opinions will
be heard, and we do see them being like revered
by the community.

Speaker 3 (14:46):
Yes, that is something though that I feel like, and
this is like maybe getting a little ahead, but I'm
interested in what you both think about it because I
think that, like that was one of the historical issues
that when I read more about it, I was like, oh, yeah,
like it's referenced in the movie that it like mainly
through Nawi that you know, obviously it's unfair that they

(15:06):
are prevented from having relationships outside of being warriors because
we see their you know, male counterparts having all having
not just relationships and families, but like access to alcohol
and just stuff that like they're doing the same job
and not being treated in the same way. But I

(15:26):
feel like John Boyega's character, who is a real man
kin Gayzo like kind of skirts around criticism of that
in certain ways because like I, historically I guess that
every single person that was a part of the EGOJI
would be considered his wife and like a third tier wife,

(15:46):
and that that is why they were so controlled in
how they were allowed to interact with the world. It
was still like an emphasis on control, and it's it's
weird because it's like that is present in this story.
But I but the first time I saw it, at least,
it didn't register to me as like something that was emphasized.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
I don't know, Yeah, I mean, I have a whole
long spiel that we'll get to about the double standard
that Nawe does challenge, but nothing changes and I imagine
like it didn't change historically and that's why. But she
does comment on it, and then there's a whole other

(16:29):
conversation to be had about how like the Agogee view
love and emotion as weakness. And you know, that's a
very familiar concept both in like real life and media,
but it's often, at least in media, it'll be something
that is traditionally associated with male warriors like the Jedi

(16:54):
from Star Wars, who are like, oh, from Star Wars, yes, yes, yes, yes,
ever heard of it? From where I was trying to
think of the name the Jedi. It's the the Jedi Order,
which I couldn't think of, so then I said, from
Star Wars, and then it sounded like a fool, So
you know, the Jedi from Star Wars.

Speaker 3 (17:13):
It was helpful.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
Who I think are except for like the newer crop
of Star Wars movies, the Jedi Order have largely been men.
And then also like from Game of Thrones, there's the
Night's Watch or whatever they're called, the guys who like
guard the wall against the ice people. I've seen that show.

(17:37):
I just don't remember what anything is called.

Speaker 3 (17:40):
But yeah, I mean I feel like that is that
is I mean, obviously, I don't know, maybe not obviously.
I am not a veteran. I have not served, I
have not gone to war.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Okay, you're not good at war, you would say.

Speaker 3 (17:53):
I would say, I am probably would be uniquely bad
at war, and I don't dislike that about myself. But yeah,
I mean that is like sort of a general training thing,
like repressing your emotions, which I think is like addressed
to some extent in this narrative by like, even though

(18:15):
General Naniska feels that it is and I think to
some extent it is necessary for her to do her job,
like to compartmentalize constantly, but you can also at least
get to see how it affects her. She clearly has
what I would say is PTSD from combat from trauma

(18:36):
that she has experienced that we'll talk about, And so
I was at least grateful that I don't know, I
feel like most well, obviously, most war movies surround men
and white men specifically, and you see all this trauma
taking place, but you don't ordinarily see how it affects
them down the line or gives that any sort of

(18:56):
serious consideration of, of course, how that's going to affect your
mental health and just how you interact with the world.
So I do like seeing a. I mean, I guess
General Niniska she's like an active general, like and how
her career has affected her, because I'm always just like,
we gotta get we like I don't know in the US,

(19:17):
and it feels like almost everywhere veterans do not have
access to mental health services that they need, and so
when there are movies about war, I'm like, let's let's
show that.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
Why did General Niska go to therapy? I'm just kidding.

Speaker 3 (19:35):
Yeah, that's actually that was going to be my main
point of the I'm like, you know what really took
me out of it is that we're generals in eighteen
twenty didn't go to see my therapist.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah, explain that pretty messed up anyway.

Speaker 4 (19:49):
So I Yeah, when I was watching the movie, one
thing that really struck me, well, firstie I should have
said probably about my history to it was in watching
I tried to reflect on life then in the eighteen
hundreds and life now in twenty twenty two, which is
when I watched it. And you know the bit about
women the Agoja women not being allowed to marry or

(20:11):
fall in love. That has changed in some ways, but
there are still some very tricky policies. There's still affect
many women, especially women that are in the army or
in the police. In Nigeria, for example, women in the
police have to seek permission from their superiors before they
get married. Now men don't have to do that, you know,

(20:33):
a man can just get married and do whatever. An
unmarried woman in the police force has to actually seek
permission from her supervisors. And it's just one of those
lots that I found I know still, I know I
found out that I was like in twenty twenty two,
you know, and it's one of those things that people

(20:54):
don't talk enough about.

Speaker 5 (20:55):
You know.

Speaker 4 (20:55):
It has become sort of the state of school until
you're told that when you're joining the police, you know,
you have the SIK permission, and so that's okay, but
it's not okay in any way. And it's just one
of the ways that discrimination is shown. And it's one
of the ways, or one of the reasons, in my opinion,
why there are way less women fighting wars.

Speaker 5 (21:14):
I agree with you, Jamie.

Speaker 4 (21:15):
I mean, wars are not my thing, but there are
several women and young girls that want to join the
army or the police force, or you know, go to war,
fight wars or protect their countries. But when you think
about the discrimination they face, and this varies from one
spectrum to another, but when you think about the fact

(21:36):
that you have the seek permission to get married and
your male counterparts do not have to do that, and
that's totally discouraging and it is unfortunate.

Speaker 5 (21:47):
I would say, but yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:49):
God, that is so upsetting to hear that that is
still the case now that I mean, yeah, I wow,
learning learning upsetting things on the Bexel Cafe. Anyways, I
was just got to see that. It didn't I don't know,
it didn't undercut what a powerful leader she was. To
see that these years of trauma on the battlefield and

(22:13):
outside just interacting with these slave traders has had an
effect on her.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
Right, Yes, And that comes across clearly in the film,
because it's Viola Davis.

Speaker 3 (22:24):
She's amazing, got all over the place.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
Okay, So we've just learned about the Egoji and the
sort of like freedoms and restrictions that they have to
live by. Then Nawi has a conversation with Naniska in
the bathing pool where they kind of like size each
other up and they both think that the other is

(22:51):
arrogant and foolish. Then it's time for Nawi and the
others to start training to become warriors.

Speaker 3 (23:00):
Okay. Did anyone think about the Mulan montage when they
were watching this? I was thinking about it the whole
time I had it. I was humming the song A Man,
a Woman, Woman, King.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
So there's the training montage where Nawi is learning and improving,
but she also tends to talk back, and she challenges
authority and tradition. She pulls a prank involving gunpowder Naniska.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
Hilarious still hilarious war prank.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
And Izogi is still mentoring her and trying to keep
her in line. Nawi reveals that she acts out so
that Naniska will notice her, because you know, she's trying
to stand out above the crowd. And what is that
from stand out?

Speaker 3 (24:00):
Oh my god, it's a Goofy movie. Right, Oh yes, yes, god,
our brands are so broken.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
Yeah, we just talked about that. Yeah, I cannot remember anything, okay.
So she's trying to like stand out above the crowd
max goof style. And there's also a mention of the
woman king, a position that has not been held by
anyone in the Kingdom of Dahomey for many years.

Speaker 3 (24:28):
And of course, when we in the theater hear them
say the title of the movie, we begin cheering. We
stand up, we applaud as one does when they say,
you know, I think this is everything everywhere all at once,
and then everyone stands in cheers. It's the most famous
scene in that movie.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
Or you know when Meryl Streep is like, I have doubt,
I have such doubt.

Speaker 3 (24:52):
Wait, but she does. She does also another Viola Davis
classic performance. I think she won her or one of
her She wanted to Oscar for that. I don't know
how many oscars she has. That's a question for another day.
But she did have such doubts.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
She did, certainly. So there's mention of the Woman King,
and it's speculated that Naniska may one day be named
the Woman King. And then soon after the Oyo General
Oba shows up with his soldiers expecting a tribute to
be paid to him. When then we learned via flashback

(25:32):
that many years ago he took Naniska as prisoner and
repeatedly raped her for a period of time. King Gezo
reluctantly pays them this tribute so that Dahomie can continue
using a port for trading which the Oyo have taken

(25:54):
control of, and part of that payment is twenty Agoji warriors,
one of whom is not we we cut to this
port where two men from Brazil show up. Santo played
by Hero, finds Tiffin, who sucks he's bad.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
He gets drowned in shallow water at the end, which
is pretty thrilling. Yeah, it's very cathartic. It's kind of
that rock and then fortunately not historically accurate, but fun,
fun at the movies.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
Oh, we come to this place for magic. We come
to this place to see slavers be.

Speaker 3 (26:33):
A Chorgnizer get drowned.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
Yes, yeah, with him is Malik played by Jordan Bulger.
Parentheses hot. So they show up at this port which
is used by Slavers to traffic people who have been
sold into slavery. Naniska also shows up to the port
with some of her warriors. Oba thinks it's the tribute

(26:58):
being paid, but surprise, Naniska is like, fuck you, here's
some decapitated heads. That's your tribute.

Speaker 3 (27:04):
We're cheering again. It's exciting.

Speaker 5 (27:06):
That was so powerful.

Speaker 3 (27:08):
That's amazing.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
Then there's a fight between Naniska and Oba, and then
the Agogi escape and because of this war has been
declared between the kingdoms of Dahome and o Yo.

Speaker 3 (27:23):
I mean, I know we're going to talk about this
in a bit, but the fight scenes are fucking incredible. Yeah,
they're so good. And again I'm not a war movie person,
but these fight scenes are so ugh. It's so good.
I've read about how the actors trained and it seemed
intense good for them. Everyone is ripped, shredded and killing people.

(27:52):
It's it's thrilling, yeah for sure.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
Okay, So war has been declared, but before the next battle,
Nawi runs into Malik while he's bathing in the river
parentheses hot again, we learn that he is half Dahoma.
His mother was from there. She recently passed away and
it was her dying wish that he visited her homeland,

(28:19):
which is part of why he's there. So then Malik
and Santo go to the palace to watch the agoji
trainees do their final test, where Nawi wins first place,
so she's like the best trainee. She and others officially
become a goji.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
Which again it's like they're done. That's all done with
the King's permission, like they are existing at his leisure basically.

Speaker 2 (28:49):
Right later, when Naui's wounds from the test like obstacle
course thing, when her wounds are being tended.

Speaker 3 (28:59):
To women, King, you must be woman, keep going.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
Naniska notices a scar on Nawi's arm and she's like, oh, yeah,
I've had that since I was a baby at the orphanage,
and Naniska's like, what, you're an orphan and she has
a very peculiar reaction because we learn that Nawi is
Naniska's daughter because about nineteen years ago, Naniska gave birth

(29:32):
because she got pregnant from being raped, and Amnza gave
the baby away to missionaries who were passing through, assuming
that they would never cross paths with this baby your
person again, but it turns out it's Nawi and she's
right there. But they're both like, no, she's probably not

(29:53):
my daughter.

Speaker 3 (29:55):
But they're in denial. What are the chances? And you're like,
this is a historical of course she's your daughter.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
So then now we sees Malik again. They're flirting, they're
into each other, but again the Agoji are not allowed
to canoodle with men. Romantic love is thought to make
them weak. And again nowI challenges this, but she can't
really do anything about it. And then also Malik tells

(30:23):
her that he overheard that General guy Oba planning his
next attack, so Nawi goes to tell this to Naniska.

Speaker 3 (30:33):
She also takes his weapon, which.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
Is like ooh, parentheses hot.

Speaker 3 (30:39):
Yes, So hot people being hot together.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
It's what the movies are kind of all about.

Speaker 3 (30:46):
Isn't it. That's why we come to this place.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
So first of all, Naniska is like, you shouldn't have
been talking to a man. And then she tells Nawi
that she was captured and raped and in pressgnated, and that
she gave birth to a girl, and that before Amenza
took the baby away, she made a cut on the
back of the baby's arm and pressed a shark tooth
into the cut, hence Naui's scar, confirming that Nawi is

(31:14):
Naniska's daughter.

Speaker 3 (31:16):
I had to end there such I was so, I
was like, you had such doubt? No did it? I know?
I was just like, how has it not gotten so infected?
How is it their tooth's just still in there? I
don't know how that maybe that, I like, I'm not
a doubt. I'm both not good at war or not
good at medicin, But I'm like, could that happen? Could

(31:37):
you have a shark tooth in your arm? For I
guess people can like have like trapnel and like, yeah,
just I.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
Would have thought it would fall pop right out. But
babies maybe babies, heel really fast, and it just kind
of healed over.

Speaker 3 (31:54):
I don't know, we're so good at we see are scholars,
real women in stem action baby sustained sharp tooth. We
don't know, Ron, can you work in global health? This
is right?

Speaker 1 (32:09):
Right?

Speaker 3 (32:09):
Probably know? They answered every health question I know.

Speaker 4 (32:13):
And that was another really interesting part about the movie.
Every you know, the scene where I'm sorry to jump off,
the scene where they were cutting themselves and putting blood
into the bowl as the means of initiating them into
the agogees, And all I could think about was, oh
my god, that's tetanus, that's hepatitis.

Speaker 2 (32:29):
The same because they're sharing a blade, they're like using time.

Speaker 4 (32:33):
You know, they're all leading. You don't know where anyone's
come from. But yeah, yeah, I tried very much to
separate my science and health the brain from the movie
because I was freaking out.

Speaker 3 (32:45):
Yeah yeah, same. I like to imagine you Ranka entering
the scene and being like, look, I know what you
think you're doing. This is actually really dangerous.

Speaker 2 (32:55):
It's not sanitary.

Speaker 3 (32:57):
We can do this symbolically, surely, right.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
So, Nawi has just learned that Naniska is her mother,
and they are both very overcome with emotion, especially Nawi, because.

Speaker 3 (33:12):
It is acting. They are acting, and.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
Then Nawi runs off crying. The next day, Naniska starts
to plan and later launches a counter attack against Oba
and the Oya warriors. The Agoji are victorious, but during
the attack, some of the warriors, including Nawi and Isogi,

(33:35):
are taken prisoner and brought to the port to be sold.
They attempt to escape, but Isogi is shot and she
dies in Nawi's arms and cry cry cry.

Speaker 4 (33:53):
Yes, very very sad.

Speaker 2 (33:56):
Yeah, their friendship is just so wonderful and really, I mean.

Speaker 3 (34:00):
It's like, I know that that is classic the movies,
but as I really didn't think anyone in the main
cast was going to die at any point because they
were so good at war, and the fact that they
did it to Maria Rambo of all people sick twisted.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
They're not right, yes, okay. So meanwhile, back at the palace,
Naniska is like, okay, they're these warriors who have been captured.
We need to go rescue them, and King Gezo is like, no,
it's not worth it. So Naniska decides to disobey him,
and she heads off to the port. She was planning

(34:40):
to go alone, but many of her fellow warriors follow
and join her back at the port. Malik buys Nawi
to save her, and when Naniska and the other warriors
show up at the port for the rescue mission, now
we joins them in battle, they all of the people

(35:00):
who have been captured. They fight back against the slavers,
and there is a final showdown between Naniska and Oba
in which she kills him another very cathartic death.

Speaker 3 (35:14):
Yes, the movie feeling like a movie.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
The Agoji returned to their kingdom, having defeated the o
Yo and their reign over Dahomie. King Gezo commends Naniska
and the Agoji for their victory and he.

Speaker 3 (35:29):
Says woman King again, he says, you were the woman king.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
And he says we are not going to be complicit
in the slave trade anymore, which is not historically accurate oopsies,
not even close, but in the movie, that's what happens.
And then there's a tender moment between mother and daughter
between Naniska and Nawi, and the movie ends with the

(35:53):
people of Dahomi celebrating their victory.

Speaker 3 (35:57):
The end.

Speaker 2 (35:59):
Yeah, so let's take a quick break and we will
come back to discuss and we're back.

Speaker 3 (36:13):
Woman King, all right, ran Kay, is there anywhere you
would like to start? What's jumping out for you?

Speaker 4 (36:22):
I think the relationship between is okay a Navii is
something that really struck me. And I know I said
during the week up like when she died that was
I had tears in white eyes. Again, it's a movie,
I know, but it just felt so real. I mean
that jumped out at me because I really loved that.

(36:44):
He didn't love sort of relationship. Well, I don't believe
in it, but it's how I grew up and how
many Nigerian and African women grow up in the sense
that your mother's and your aunties, and I mean every
old the woman is a mother and auntie first of all.
So whether it's your mother's friend or whoever, your mother's

(37:06):
and your aunties really love you. But they show you
by being hard with you. You know, they show you
by being really strict with you. But deep in their
somewhere they're ready to fight and go to any war
for you and with is your gear. And now you
could tell that is your gay really really loved now
we and that now we completely admired is a gay

(37:29):
and it was just such a beautiful relationship to watch
and with every since I could feel, you know, there
were loads of unsaid words, but you could see from
their emotions, from the official expressions, from you know, what's
the first rule of war? Always obey is a gay? Like?

(37:50):
I found that so powerful. It was like a deep
connection between both of them, and so I think throughout
the movie, I always look forward to scenes that Hadsi
gay and Naui, whether actually congratulating her or being firmed
with her, which was most of it, or sadly when
is Okay died in NAB's arms.

Speaker 3 (38:11):
Their friendship was really really I think, like well done.
And yeah, it's like because it's so devastating when is
Okay dies because I didn't see it coming. And also like, yeah,
you've built You've spent so much time and they've like
clearly like learned from each other. I think, like kind
of their last moment together, Nawi, what is she what

(38:31):
does she like? She moves a bone? Ooh, it's really
difficult to watch, but it's like they are just like
so in it together and like in it collectively, and
it's so like one of the things I really liked
about this movie is obviously it is a woman centric plot,
but you get to see so many different kinds of

(38:54):
women and so many different personalities interacting. You get to
see it across generations. You get to see relationship between
women that are I think more like Nawi and Izzoki's
relationship is like pretty warm as time goes on, and
you get to see like a really warm friendship. And
then with Naniska and Amenza, you see a different side

(39:15):
of Naniska with a Menza than you do when she
is being the general. Like, you just get to see
a lot of different facets and types of relationships and
they all felt very like grounded and earned and yeah.

Speaker 4 (39:29):
You also you also get to see jealousy, which was
quite the mix between the queen whose name I don't remember,
but King Ghizzo's wife.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
Yes Chante.

Speaker 4 (39:44):
She just did not want Naniska to be there. She
didn't want her to be the woman king. She didn't
want her to quote unquote make decisions for King Ghizo.
She didn't want Naniska to authority. You know, when Naniska
was suggesting that the da who made people stop engaging

(40:05):
in slave trade, and you know, she thought Naniska was
confusing the King. Well, it was just very interesting to
see one end of love and support and comforts amongst
women and then the other end of jealousy and some spies.

Speaker 3 (40:20):
Right. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
I like when there's a character who I don't remember
his name, I kept calling him mister Purple. Oh, I
liked also queer icon mister Purple.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
Mister Purple crushed it.

Speaker 2 (40:35):
He said something like, oh, yeah, the king respects Naniska
because she fought for him in the coup.

Speaker 3 (40:42):
What did you do? You hid in a cupboard? And
I was like, yeah, But I think that like that
dynamic between the two of them is so it's really
interesting because it's like, I don't know, I've been thinking
a lot recently, which is dangerous, but about how like

(41:02):
through history, how women have had access to power and
I guess having to like talk about power as a
neutral term just for simplicity, but like, I think between
those two characters, you have like probably the two available
routes for women in this culture, as it's presented in
the movie, to gaining any sort of power or influence

(41:23):
over what happens in their lives. And yeah, Chante gains
it through marriage, which I think I mean, and even
we've been guilty of this over the years, Like modern
feminists don't always they're like, well she just it's like, well,
there's literally kind of the only option, nothing you can do.
And it does seem like Shante wants a seat at

(41:45):
the table in terms of decision making and resents that
General Meniska takes that role, which I think, honestly, based
on what we see, General Niniska probably should be at
the table more so than Chante. But then it's also like, well,
why can there only be one woman at the table
that has everything to do with the patriarchal structure that

(42:08):
they exist inside of. And I liked, I felt like that.
I don't know, I mean, I think you could argue
that Chante is made out to seem a little silly,
but she does I think by the end like get her.
I don't know, I guess I'm curious what do you
both think about that? Like, because at the end, kind
of the last we see of her is being upset

(42:29):
that Naniska has gotten the seat at the table that
she has not been. We've seen King Gezo speak pretty
negatively of her. And also I mean there's like that
one there one exchange where he you knows. I don't
remember which villain, but I think maybe the Portuguese guy.
They're having a discussion and the villain references, well, Chante

(42:52):
told me that this was the place is Santo? Okay,
so they're having I'm like, he gets dround. I don't
have to remember his name. But in any case, King
Gezol has a very negative reaction to hearing that Chante
has asserted herself in any way, shape or form, and
says that she will be punished for having done that,
and like.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
He said something like she does not speak for me,
and she will be punished for thinking that she does.

Speaker 3 (43:17):
Right. Yeah, So I think like it's it is obviously
like the filmmakers and the writers are well aware that
Chante is also in a very limited situation with what
she is able to do. But I don't know, I
kind of wish that we got a little more of her,
because yeah, I think that like clearly, like the movie
has a clear and necessary agenda to uplift Naniska, but

(43:40):
it felt like a few times they took jabs at
Shante in order to be like, well, clearly Naniska deserves power,
and it's like, hmmm, yes, but why do we have
to kick Shante to make that point true?

Speaker 4 (43:53):
True? But then Chante was one of dozens of wives.

Speaker 3 (43:57):
I think he did have many. Probably technically general Niska
is a wife too, but.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
Not in the same capacity because it's referenced that the
agoji or virgin like, they're not like engaging in like
sexual activity with the king, So they're like relationship with him,
but in a far different capacity.

Speaker 3 (44:19):
They are both completely at like under his control, but yeah,
in different in different ways to do it. I didn't
realize Angelie Kicho is in this movie when she plays
one of.

Speaker 4 (44:32):
The wo I only realized the third time. The third
time I watched it, that's when I realized that she
was one of the members of the King's cabinet.

Speaker 3 (44:41):
Loved that, yo. I know, I know, she's credited as
the Munion, which I don't know what that means, but
I kept saying it as the Minion, and I was like, Wow,
what a crossover.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
There's gonna be your minion. I'll bring up minions water
as well.

Speaker 3 (44:59):
Right with the minions work for the woman King?

Speaker 2 (45:02):
You know, Well, it's because one of the people who
conceived of the story for this movie's name is Maria
Bellow below.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
Oh, oh my god, ron Kay, We're so sorry that
we have a minions problem on the Sheld, but millions
tend to count. It's just we're just very cultured.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
All this to say is that I love that the
there's such a strong emphasis and focus in this movie
on female relationships of many different types. We see a
large spectrum of what a relationship between women can look like.
We already talked about the friendship between Nawi and Izogi,

(45:50):
as well as the friendship between Naniska and Amenza. I
was also getting some queer undertones there. I think you
could easily read that as a close friendship, but I
was getting some vibes.

Speaker 3 (46:03):
Oh that they are loving. You know, fiction dot net
is like popping off with a lot of these Yeah.

Speaker 2 (46:09):
I'm not saying anything new here, but I just want
to say I too felt the vibes.

Speaker 3 (46:15):
I guess, like, going back to Chantae and Niska, I'd
like I liked when the women of this story were
in conflict with each other, because that's like a very
clear grounded conflict for the time and place that this
movie takes place. And even with like Naniska and Nawi,
they're in conflict for almost the entire movie, definitely, But

(46:36):
it is like it's so so well written and directed
and performed that there's like always a feeling of mutual
respect and they're basically like challenging each other. And by
the end, it's like Naniska, if she hadn't seen Naui
being little miss rebel the whole damn movie, she wouldn't
have done what she did at the end. And it's
just I like it. I like it.

Speaker 4 (46:58):
I was going to say, you know the scene where
Naniska took the decapacitated heads to the or your empire
and then she asked them to leave, and then now
we went back to save her, but instead of a
thank you, she got told off. And you know, it
was very interesting because I kept to andream, did Naniska

(47:20):
really feel upset with Nawi or was that some again
interesting form of hiding your emotions and you know, deep
inside you're proud and you're happy and you're grateful, but
you have to show the powerful general Mantra you know
you're upset for this disobedience. So yeah, that was quite

(47:40):
interesting in terms of that relationship.

Speaker 3 (47:43):
Their dynamics felt like between mother and well yeah, who
we learn our mother and daughter of your shark tooth wound.
It felt like, I mean, there are a lot of
moments in this movie and I feel like, generally positive,
we'll get back to it, but that felt like a
very kind of modern dynamic, even though it's clearly rooted

(48:04):
in history, but the generational divide between the two of
them felt pretty like modern and easy to relate to.
If you've ever had a parent that felt they had
to push down their emotions in order to navigate the
world more effectively, or especially you know, in marginalized communities,
and I mean, I'm thinking about, honestly, like my own

(48:26):
Irish Catholic parents, where it's there's a lot of you know,
just compartmentalizing and feeling that that is the only way
to navigate the world successfully. And it's clear that Naniska
has internalized that and that it has served her well
in what she does. It's not like the movie makes

(48:48):
this out to be, you know, an inferior way of
navigating the world. But I love that you have Nawi
as an alternative to that. Where Nawi wants the freedom
to feel things freely, she wants to have relationships if
she wants to have relationships and it's I mean what
it's she's she's trying to have it all, but unfortunately,

(49:11):
which is like difficult.

Speaker 2 (49:14):
Right. Well, one thing I was gonna say is that
it felt like before they knew they were mother and daughter,
they had a very mother daughter relationship dynamic already. Where
like to your point, Ranke, when Naniska is upset with
Nawi that she like stayed behind to help when they

(49:34):
were launching that like surprise attack, I feel like you
could read that as Naniska was upset, like, oh, you
staying behind could have gotten you killed, And I wouldn't
want that because I love you like you're my own daughter,
and it turns out she is our daughter.

Speaker 3 (49:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
I think that that relationship was just like built out
very cleverly, and I to speak to this sort of
like compartmentalizing of emotions and that whole idea that the
Agogi hold that you can't have relationship like romantic relationships,

(50:14):
you can't have a family and bear children. To show
love and to show emotion is a sign of weakness,
and that's something that now we challenges. One she like
challenges the double standard of well, the male soldiers the
men warriors are allowed to you know, have wives and

(50:36):
have families.

Speaker 3 (50:37):
Why not us?

Speaker 2 (50:40):
And then you have I think at one point Zogi
is like, you know, I'm gonna be general someday. I
can't have love, you know, I can't have both things
because now he's like if you never loved before? And
she's like, no, women can't have it all.

Speaker 3 (50:59):
She's like, oh no, the classic conflict. And I think,
like in a more historically accurate ending, even though it's framed,
there's a lot of joy in the way this movie ends,
and there is a celebration and Naniska is given the
woman king like role that we have been rooting for

(51:19):
her to have the entire movie. But in the end,
it's like, now we can't have it all, which is
unfortunately how it ends for a lot of a lot
of women. Where she does the oh I want to like,
I wonder if there's a term for what this is.
But when we haven't talked about the relationship with her

(51:40):
and Malik yet, but that like meaningful glance of like
this has run its course. It's almost it almost reminded
me of like at the end of The Dark Knight Rises,
where Fatman sees what's his name, Joseph, Oh no, the

(52:01):
butler And they're like yeah, okay, well see yah, like
it's the the just like, well, this relationship needs to
be done because the movie's over, so we're just gonna
have them have a little a little look.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
Yeah, a look goes a long way sometimes.

Speaker 3 (52:17):
But she doesn't get the relationship that she I mean it,
it didn't need to be that relationship, but like she
isn't able to have it all. But I like that
she is, which is you know, historically accurate.

Speaker 2 (52:29):
Right though I will say so again, like now we
challenges this idea that like to express emotion and to
feel love equals a sign of weakness, and she's like
that's not true, Like I can still be a good
warrior and love somebody. And it feels as though Naniska

(52:50):
comes around on this and it's not on like romantic
love but familial love, where like I think she was
like holding herself back from like loving herder that she
found out that she had. But then with that tender
moment between them in the end where you know, she's
apologizing and they're both like just kind of reconciling and
recognizing their relationship and what that means for them, and

(53:14):
they're like letting love in.

Speaker 3 (53:16):
It's so that ending scene with them is really beautiful.
I really loved it where they're yeah, they're like, yeah,
they're apologizing to each other, but it's not I don't know,
it's like such a you're like, oh, two women apologizing
to e check, but it feels but they're like it
kind of boils down to like, I'm sorry that the

(53:38):
world is the way it is, and I'm sorry that
society is stacked so much against you and against me,
but that doesn't mean that we can't love each other.
And that is beautiful beauty.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
Let's take another quick break and then we will come
right back, and we're back. And I want to quote
and paraphrase a piece in Refinery twenty nine entitled The

(54:17):
Woman King Severs The Strong Black Woman Trope for Good
by Kathleen Newman Braman, which kind of speaks to this
as far as like the withholding emotion or suppressing emotion,
but then particularly Naniska kind of having a character arc
where she lets emotion happen, which is something I need

(54:44):
to learn how to do sometimes as well. So hashtag relatable.
But in this piece Kathleen talks about a trope in
media and an expectation in real life that Black women
have to be so strong and resilient quote quote unquote
strong Black woman TM. She's the epitome of resilience and perseverance.

(55:09):
She's an overachiever with an infallible moral compass. Her strength
comes from having to overcome unimaginable adversity that would break
anyone else but not her. It is her most defining
characteristic unquote. And then the writer goes on to say
that a lot of people have rejected this trope and
this expectation which has led for this like push for softness,

(55:35):
and so I'll share another quote. When strength has been
the default, the requirement and expectation to be soft is
a quiet defiance of a burden we never asked for.
For some Black women to say that's enough resiliency for
me can be a revelation, an exhale of freedom from

(55:56):
the presumption that our worth is measured in how well
we endure oppression, that our only value is our high
tolerance for suffering. On its surface, the Woman King seems
like another addition to the Strong Black Woman TM.

Speaker 3 (56:11):
Cannon.

Speaker 2 (56:12):
The film tells the story of some of the fiercest
warriors in history, the Agoji. Of course they're strong. In
the opening battle scene of the film, Lashana Lynch's Izogi
takes down her opponent by gouging his eyes out with
her nails. With a piercing, rally rallying cry. These warriors
race into war with sharpened machetes and no fear. We

(56:34):
have never seen black women be this strong on film.
The closest we've come is the Dora Milage in Black Panther,
a fictional army that was based on the Egogi. And yet,
as physically adept and mentally tough as the Agogi are,
they are also full human beings who experience other emotions

(56:57):
than fortitude. I said that, so weird fortitude?

Speaker 3 (57:01):
Ooh, Professor Durante, fortitude. There we go.

Speaker 2 (57:05):
Their strength is a fact, a basic requirement of their job,
not a replacement for a personality. The piece goes on.
It's really excellent. I recommend reading it. I just want
to share one last quote from Shila a team who
plays Amenza. She says, quote strength has been weaponized against

(57:27):
black women. As much as it is a positive trait
to have at times, it's also something that has been
placed upon us to prevent us from having the agency
to feel anything else and to be anything else. What
I love about this film is that it says you
can be all of those things within the spectrum of strength.
You can also be vulnerable, you can find strength in others.

(57:50):
I think that's really important for us to see because
the strong black woman trope is still prevalent out there,
and I want people to be able to understand that
they can feel the full spectrum of what it means
to be a human being unquote. Which I think all
of that just nicely sums up that conversation we were

(58:10):
having about the female relationships and the kind of nuances
of them and whether or not showing emotion equals weakness
all that it's.

Speaker 3 (58:23):
Like an active question and yeah, and like when the
fact that that is like kind of an important question
as the without shaming Niniska and knowing that she comes
by this mentality honestly, but you know, it's a good
historical epic precedent because I feel like that is again,

(58:44):
like this is an outlier in so many ways, but
even just with that mentality of like being emotionally open
is not a weakness and is in fact a strength
is something that still feels like kind of rare in
movies in general.

Speaker 4 (59:03):
Yeah, and you know, giving that the movie was a
mix of or an amalgamation of fiction and the writer's ideas,
it was.

Speaker 5 (59:13):
One of the things that caught me as well.

Speaker 4 (59:15):
I don't think there would have been any harm in
the overall plot if we had one soldier, one of
the aguages who was soft and you know, showed emotions
without necessarily being seen as weak, you know. And I
really enjoyed reading that article on the strong woman trope
for the Black woman and YadA YadA. But yeah, I

(59:36):
just felt like it was one of the things I
would have really loved to see. It's not it's indeed
not reality that you find many you know, most successful
Black women are seen as strong and powerful, but when
you read their histories or their biographies, you know, Viola
Davis asked Viola Davis, not General Daniska or Michelle Obama

(59:57):
or Oprah Wainfrey. They tend to come out in their
books at this as vulnerable and soft, and they talk
about how they've had to show up a strong woman,
but that's not the lives they want to live in.
Many cases. So yeah, I feel like that's one of
the things that the writer could have weaved in somewhere
into the movie. There was the girl that was from

(01:00:20):
the Mahi I think community and she hardly spoke, yeah,
and she was calm, but she was really strong. I
mean she came second after now We in the Aguja competition,
the competition or whatever, and you know, she was a
bit close to it, but we hardly heard her speak,
and then at the end she got killed.

Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
Yes, that's a good point. I didn't I honestly didn't
even register that, yeah, because I think that like now
We is sort of our main analog into that mentality,
but she's like punished for it a lot before it's
and oh man, I also I'm like justice for that character.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
Well, then there's another character named Fumbe who is good
friends with nawi Is She The character says something like,
I don't really want to stay and be a warrior,
but I have nowhere else to go, yes, and so
she I feel like maybe they could have explored more
like softness with that character too, especially because she is

(01:01:21):
not gung ho about being a warrior. And but I
also that's another friendship. I really liked and yeah, I
think maybe if that had been explored further.

Speaker 5 (01:01:31):
Did not die?

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
Oh I I was losing track of who was getting killed.

Speaker 3 (01:01:39):
I don't think she died. He Wait, no, I.

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
Don't know if we see her in that final battle.

Speaker 3 (01:01:45):
Wait, that's that's not fair. I mean there's a few
things for at the end of the movie where we
were like, huh hah, there's a lot of loops closing
kind of rapidly, So I feel like I lost track
of a couple of characters. I honestly forgot by the end.
I was like, oh, yeah, Malik, right, can we talk
about that really quick? What did you think about the
romance in this movie?

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
I didn't hate it.

Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
I didn't love it. I didn't love it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:09):
I was say, but here's why I didn't hate it.
She challenges him in a lot of ways. She's like, you,
you're a slaver and he's like, no, I'm not. I'm
just here because my mom wanted me to be here.

Speaker 3 (01:02:24):
I'm just hanging out with slave traders. And you're like,
we're gonna need a better I think we need a
better answer.

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
Yes, maybe I just like him because he's hot, But
that's entirely possible, but he seems to respect her. I Also,
what I think I like about it is that I
appreciate that the movie didn't feel the need to keep
them together forever. Yeah, they had this short romance. I'm
pretty sure they have sex in that like hotel room.

Speaker 3 (01:02:53):
Or something wherever they are implied.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
Yeah, but and then they go their separate ways and
he's like, come with me to England and she's like pass.
So I appreciate it because I feel like most movies
would be like, well, they like each other and they
had sex one time, so now they have to be
together forever, right, right?

Speaker 3 (01:03:12):
And I feel like there's also I don't know, like
because it seems like there are a number of Egojie
soldiers that are like again, like women often are like
valued and prized for their chastity, and that is like
elevates their value as a person. They're so chaste and
the virginal and all this, and like, just I do

(01:03:34):
like representation of losing your virginity and then being like
and now it's you know, the next day and I'm
moving on with my life, and it's like not like
this huge thing that's built out to be I guess
I don't know. Yeah, I liked what the relationship represented,
which was like to me like Nawi saying like, well,

(01:03:57):
no fuck what the king said about how I can
like I'm fighting for him every day and I can't
have a boyfriend, like get a life. I like that
as like symbolic, like an act of defiance, as like
symbolic rebellion. Yeah, because usually I don't think you usually
see a heterosexual relationship as an act of defiance, but

(01:04:22):
it is in this and it like does symbolize. And
I agree with you, Caitlin. I like that it ends
and it now he's not gonna throw away this community
and this newfound family and literal like literal and symbolic
family to move to England with a guy she had
sex with one time. Like, honestly, that's that's good that

(01:04:46):
I was like she was right about that, because sometimes
I'm like, yeah, i'd moved to a had sex with
one time. But but what I what I didn't love
about I don't know. I just I the act relationship.
I was not super wild. I think it's just like
she's too good for him.

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
For sure, Like but he's also he's like the least
worst man in the movie because all the other men, yes,
are horrible. And I do appreciate that the movie is
not shy about saying, like, look, how awful men can be.

Speaker 3 (01:05:21):
I feel like they still let John Vega off the
hook a little bit. But yeah, I just didn't love
I didn't love Malik because obviously, now that the Barbie
trailer is kinda has come out, all I want to
say is she's everything, He's just Ken. And that's kind
of how I feel about that relationship. Like now he
is everything, Malik is just Ken, like he's I wouldn't

(01:05:42):
even say he's fine. I mean, I understand, like they
the script and the story contextualizes his predicament and I
don't want to oversimplify it, but ultimately he is still,
you know, hanging out with slave traders, and like, now
we she's everything, He's just can It's true. It is

(01:06:03):
how I feel about the relationship. I don't know, what
did you make of that? Wrong?

Speaker 4 (01:06:08):
Kay I felt the same way too. I was really
hoping that at the end of the movie she wouldn't
choose to get on the boats with him. That's sad.
I also admired how much he seemed to love her
fighting for her, especially at that scene with It's Okay
where they were being sold or you know, the highest

(01:06:29):
bider was looking at how much they would cost, and
then he came and disrupted the whole thing, and YadA YadA,
and he disrupted their plans to escape for whatever. Anyway,
but you know, he was really he was ready to
put himself on the line. And then obviously a white
man killed. That means real trouble for the Dahomies and

(01:06:51):
all your empire people. But he still kept now in
his room. That seemed a bit unrealistic to me. I mean,
how could he have kept her in the same compound
where the very angry.

Speaker 5 (01:07:04):
People were and really.

Speaker 4 (01:07:06):
Couldn't overtake him. Kind of have been planned and he's
not a fighter exactly. So yeah, it was interesting to
see that. But in terms of their love, yeah, I
really liked that now we sort of stood her ground.
He dictated how she wanted the relationship to be. You know,

(01:07:26):
there were times where she was sought with him, not
a lot, but there were also times where she stood
up to him and quite boldly too. And again I
would say I was really scared at the end. Jamie
liked you that she would just up and go with him,
especially when he offered her a dress. I thought that
was the start to or now that she wears the

(01:07:46):
dress of the Europeans, she would become one of them.
But thankfully she didn't. So, yeah, that was quite intriguing
to watch. Yeah, and I'm not unusual to be hones.
I again linked it to today's world. There's a lot
of Europeans or Americans or whatever who go to America,

(01:08:09):
to African countries to whether it's for wars or for
business or for tourism, plash or whatever it is, and
then they fall in love. You know, it's it's a
usual story. You fall in love with a black woman,
and there's you know, controversies around whether you can date
a black woman or not, or an African woman. So

(01:08:31):
it wasn't it wasn't intriguing in the sense that, yeah,
this is the normal world and this is what.

Speaker 5 (01:08:36):
We see every time.

Speaker 4 (01:08:38):
But I loved the twist where and now we did
not let herself get wiped off her feet because of him.
You know, she didn't show that, she didn't show that
she was intrigued by being admired by a white man
or a slave trader or a mixed race man, whatever
you want to create us.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
Yeah, yeah, I I hope that like if this, I
don't know, this doesn't really seem like this, most historical
epics don't have sequels, but I'm like, I hope, you know,
like if head canon you go like a couple of
years down the line in this story, that now we
would feel more comfortable to explore a relationship with maybe

(01:09:17):
someone who wasn't a slave trader, you know, just an idea,
but yeah, and that hopefully because because Naniska has gone
through this transformation and is more open to emotional vulnerability
and the sort of I guess like quiet emotional rebellion

(01:09:38):
that she is able to do, that she would be
accepting of that because it's like, yeah, like I don't know,
I think it's so I've been thinking about this a
lot lately, but like I think it is such a
trapping of like modern feminism to say like I don't
need a man or even a partner because I can

(01:10:00):
provide for myself, which is true and like is now
not as accessible as it should be still, but I
think that sometimes it is like a little like demonized
to still want partnership even though you can provide for
yourself in a way that has not been historically possible before.

(01:10:20):
And I like that now we again, it's like I think,
I mean, it's funny because I feel like we keep
applying the woman King's like eighteen twenty promise to right now.
But I think that the movie wants you to do
that in a lot of ways. And I don't know. Wait,
I have two roads we go down if either of

(01:10:43):
your interested. Okay, I love man, I love talking about movies. Okay,
we can go down the history route or the production route.
The two roads of discourse lay in front of us.

Speaker 2 (01:10:56):
I mean we will get to both eventually. Yes, do
history first?

Speaker 3 (01:11:02):
Okay, so did did either? I mean I think part
of why this movie is very I mean there's a
lot of reasons why this movie is it's important that
this movie was made, but one of them is just
this is an area of history that in my you know,
Massachusetts public school, I did not learn about African history

(01:11:22):
really at all. It's soame. I just didn't know and
it was not prioritized in I think American education across
I mean American education, how they teach history. It seems
like it's still somehow getting worse, which is a fucking nightmare.
But this was an area of history that I didn't
know anything about, and so I was excited, especially where

(01:11:45):
the movie starts with context that we were saying, like,
I definitely needed to place you in this world. I
was interested to read. I don't know. Yeah, did either
of you know about any of the history of the
Agoji before seeing this movie? I did not know.

Speaker 4 (01:12:03):
Not of the acle J. For me, I did off
the All Your Empire because the All Your Empire is
now in modern day Niger. It's not a state in
modern day Niger. So I knew of the Oio Empire,
but not of the agog which is a shame to
my history teachers as well. I would have loved because
I would have really loved to learn about Not to
distract from the story, but I would have really loved

(01:12:24):
to learn more about historical feminism in Africa.

Speaker 3 (01:12:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:12:29):
Wow, I was still in high school and not you know,
when my life has gone through Tomoriles and I'm like, oh, wow,
there were actually women in the eighteen hundreds who were fighters,
But that's a that's another story. But short answered, No,
I never heard of the as before it's.

Speaker 3 (01:12:46):
So true that I feel like there it reminds me
of our our friend Margaret Kiljoy has this amazing podcast
called Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, and the whole
mission of it is to, yeah, like bring figures that
have been buried by historical quote unquote disinterest and like
bring them to the forefront and be like, Nope, women

(01:13:07):
have always been fucking cool, and like.

Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
They were cool people which doing cool stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:13:15):
So anyways, I was as I was watching the movie,
I was like, Wow, there's so many parallels to discussions
we're having in the West today. And it turns out
that that is sort of by design because this movie,
for as much as I enjoyed it, and as much
as it seems like everyone who saw it enjoyed it,
there has been a fair amount of criticism about its

(01:13:38):
historical accuracy and almost like prioritizing making sure it speaks
to a Western audience, not just a Western audience, but
a Western audience is understanding of slave trading versus historical
accuracy of what was actually going on at this time.
And I don't like, I don't know it's I'm going

(01:13:59):
to quote for a New Yorker piece by Julian Lucas
who sort of unpacks this. And I think that there
are there most reviews of this movie mentioned like, yeah,
it's not super historically accurate, but like it's fucking amazing.
It's The Woman King, so relax, which I think is

(01:14:21):
a fair stance to take. And I also think that
you know it name a historical epic movie that is
like known for its historical accuracy, it's not really what
the genre is known for. And I feel like it
almost has like like any subgenre, but like almost like
a horror movie thing where it's like, yeah, this historical

(01:14:41):
epic is being made in this specific time for a reason,
so it's probably trying to speak to people about something specific.
But okay, this is from the New Yorker piece quote.
The Woman King has been billed as a powerful true story,
but one wonders what Cassola and Hurston, one of America's
first black women filmmakers. He's referencing Zorneil Hurston and Alulay

(01:15:07):
Cossola to writers and filmmakers, But one wonders what Cosola
and Hurston, one of America's first black women filmmakers, would
make of its narrative. For one thing, King Gezo was
not a reluctant participant in the slave trade. He fought
hard to preserve it from the British, formerly his favorite customers,
who blockaded the coast and unsuccessfully lobbied for abolition at

(01:15:28):
his court. His defeat of Oyo led to an explosion
in the number of slaves sold at Oida, a commerce
that he zealously defended, once giving a British envoy a
six year old girl as a gift for Queen Victoria.
Nor do I know of any evidence that the Agojee
ever resisted the trade. Some used their voices to clamor
for war in the Royal Council, expressing on one occasion

(01:15:50):
a preference for invading weaker neighbors. Quote. If we fail
to catch elephants, let us be content with flies unquote.
The film's conceit is charitably an elaborate exercise in wishful thinking.
Wouldn't it be nice if Tohomie's brave women warriors had
also been fighters for justice. Defenders of white supremacy have
often exploited these uncomfortable truths. Apologists for the slave trade

(01:16:13):
once used Dahomie's bloodthirsty reputation to claim that they were
rescuing their victims from human sacrifice. Imperialists used similar rhetoric
to justify colonial conquest as a form of abolition. In reality, though,
African forms of slavery didn't compare with the radicalized industrial
variance that Western empires unleashed upon the world unquote, So

(01:16:36):
all I did, I mean, this is again like we
none of us knew this history specifically, and I kind
of assumed that this movie would skew more historically accurate,
which is like, maybe not fair of me to like.
And then he goes on to suggest, like, well, if
you wanted to emphasize the power of the Agoji, they

(01:16:58):
could have chosen this period versus the period that they chose,
because it seems like in this moment specifically, certainly King Gezo,
I don't know, like reading, because I watched the movie
and then learned the history and then watch the movie again,
and the ending scene with King Gezo does not go
down as well once you know that the historical figure

(01:17:20):
was actively participating in the slave trade enthusiastically the entire
time for personal profit and was very complicit in the
subjugation of his own people. And then you have John
Boyega being like abolition now and.

Speaker 2 (01:17:35):
You're like, right, so, yes, there were liberties taken with history,
as we've said a lot of historical epic cinema, does
I mean, that's a really big liberty, huge liberty. I
guess I wonder what would the value have been to

(01:17:55):
depict history exactly as it happened in this instance and
that way, you have this movie about these warriors who
are like not necessarily fighting for justice, they're just fighting
to like uphold the status quo of the slave trade.
And then you have this king who's like, yeah, let's

(01:18:16):
keep being slavers, and then that yes, that would have
been historically accurate. But do we need a movie about that?

Speaker 1 (01:18:26):
Two?

Speaker 3 (01:18:26):
I totally agree, I mean, I totally agree. I just
I don't I mean, I don't have a good answer
for that. I think that this writer tries to suggest
different periods of time in the Agoji's history that would
not be chafing with the reality of the period quite
so much. I don't know, I'd be interested to know
what our listeners think about this, because I I don't

(01:18:47):
really like, I don't know. I mean, that's a making king.
I mean, and again, it's like, you don't need to
write it so that King Gaza is an abolitionist by
the end of the movie didn't need to happen. It's
a very Hollywood ending. Yeah, exactly exactly. I think that, like, honestly,
I didn't mind the creative liberty taken that Naniska was

(01:19:11):
opposed to the slave trade. I think that that like
is a creative liberty that makes a ton of sense,
and it like keeps us with the Agogi. It's not
you know, And I know that this piece says that
in general the Agogi were often complicit in this, but
I think that the way that it's written of saying
like because at the beginning, Naniska is complicit in it,

(01:19:32):
but she is trying to actively make it stop. So
that made sense to me. I think it was just
the King Gezo creative liberties that was I think a
line for me. Yeah, the creative liberties within the Agoji
I wasn't as bothered by because I agree, it's like,

(01:19:52):
you know, you want to get on board with this story,
but I don't know. And especially because the what is
the name of the army that is in black Panther
we said it earlier, we forgot brain Dora Dora Melogi. Yeah,
they were, so they were inspired by the Agoji and

(01:20:14):
so like as we can see in the Black Panther franchise.
Because it's inspired by and not explicitly the Agoji, you
can take exclusively creative liberties. But I think, I mean,
it's it is kind of just like something that we
see in movies a lot that say they're based on
a true story. There's never any clear disclosure of like

(01:20:34):
this is the creative liberties that we took, which I
don't know. I mean, I I don't want to imply that.
I mean, I don't know. Historical filmmaking in general is
mostly fake, and I guess that I don't know. I
had I was interested to learn the history because it's
especially because the king subjugated is on people really really aggressively.

(01:20:57):
Don't give them an abolitionist speech at the end.

Speaker 4 (01:21:01):
Yeah, I do have an interesting perspective. But firstly, Jimmy,
big ups to you for watching reading the history, and
then going back to watching it, because I think it
gives you a whole new perspective.

Speaker 3 (01:21:12):
It's still why don't you do that?

Speaker 4 (01:21:16):
So you know, I tried to do the same thing
and read up about the history of the movie, because
when I wrote about it, people said I was also
supporting a rewrite of history. So I went to check myself,
and you know, maybe to frame this with there's an
African proverb that says, until the lion can tell his story,

(01:21:37):
the hunter will always win, or the hunter's story will
always be it, but basically saying, you know, because the
lion dies, just nobody to tell the lion's story, and
in this case it is.

Speaker 5 (01:21:47):
One of the things I found was that the.

Speaker 4 (01:21:49):
Actual history of the Alcoa Jas or most of the
actual history of the Acho Jase that you can find,
has been written by Europeans, right, and not necessarily by
people from Bener Republic, which is the new you know,
where modern day the Dahomies are, and so it's hard
to say how much of that has been influenced by

(01:22:11):
the Europeans who were mostly the actual slave traders, or
at least who received most of the slaves. And that
just really made me feel like, oh my god. This
is deeper than just a criticism of the movie and
how much history is in it. It's also a criticism
of where it's the history of the ago Jays in

(01:22:33):
the world, who has written them, What biases did they hold,
what stories.

Speaker 5 (01:22:39):
Do they adjust for their own selves.

Speaker 4 (01:22:42):
I'm not a historian, so I haven't like really deep
dived into all of this, but yeah, it just gave
me a whole new perspective. And it's not just about
the agogist. There's so much about African history that I
think isn't written by Africans, and so I personally the struggle.
You know, when you read about whether it's the slave
trade or colonialism, or how Christianity and other religion was

(01:23:07):
brought into African countries, it's very hard to find those
tales written by Africans who experienced all whose family's experience,
and so it's written by Europeans, and it's very hard
to know if you should take it hook line and sinker,
or if you recognize the bias there.

Speaker 2 (01:23:24):
I read on scholarly journal Wikipedia. The director Gina Prince Spythewood.
As she was researching for this movie, she had a
really hard time finding accounts of the Agoji that were
not written by Europeans and like people who were like

(01:23:44):
speaking about these warriors in a very like disparaging and
disrespectful way. So she had to like really dive to
find accurate and unbiased accounts.

Speaker 3 (01:23:56):
Well even where they even where they found the names
Niniska and Nawi those are yeah, those are from accounts
of colonizers. Which, yeah, that's a really good point. Ron
kay where Yeah, like history and this is like I
guess part of the reason we didn't know this story
at all to any degree, and so we're like, yeah,
the Woman King is probably a documentary, which shouldn't be

(01:24:19):
the responsibility of a historical epic. You know, it's like that,
it's such a complicated thing. Yeah, that's a really good point.
But then like the good proverb too, I want to
read that.

Speaker 2 (01:24:31):
Yeah, but then like the flip side of that is that, yes,
there are historical liberties and inaccuracies taken with this movie,
but just from like a very I guess maybe surface
level point of view. Again, like nothing I learned in
school about the slave trade focused at all on what

(01:24:56):
was happening in Africa, And none of them move I've
watched about slavery have been told from the perspective of
like they were always told the movie, of the movies
I've seen about it, it was always told from the
perspective of the people who had already been sold into
slavery and were working on plantations, and you know, those

(01:25:18):
are important stories to tell, of course, but there's so
many of them, and it kind of erases part of
the narrative of like the people who were sold into slavery,
and it erases like their lives and their culture in
their homeland pre being stolen and human trafficked. So I

(01:25:39):
had never seen anything in media or like again, anything
I ever learned in school that was focused on the
perspective that you'd see in The Woman King, right, So
at the very least, like this movie is valuable in
showing and again there's inaccuracies along the way, but it's
also polling from a lot of history and to show

(01:26:02):
that perspective was super valuable for me, having never seen
anything like that in like American media or American education.

Speaker 3 (01:26:12):
I agree, Yeah, I mean, I think again, it's my
This is like I think just a preference that this
is true of all historical movies for me, is that
because Naniska is not a real person who exists, you
have a ton of creative liberty. You have a ton
of freedom. Every soldier that we see in the Agoji,

(01:26:33):
we're not real people, and if you're attributing stuff to
a real person and a real leader, I feel like
there is a line of where creative liberty is appropriate.
But that's also just my opinion. I have one more
chunk from this New Yorker piece I'd like to share.

(01:26:53):
I also didn't know that Lupita Nyango was supposed to
be in this movie and then she dropped out. Yeah,
so this piece is very much speculating as to why.
But I just wanted to share this really quick. So
from the same New Yorker piece quote, but you don't
have to take my word for it. In twenty eighteen,
when TriStar announced The Woman King, Lupita Nyango had been
cast as Nawi. Fresh off the success of Black Panther.

(01:27:16):
The Kenyan Mexican star was apparently so excited about her
new role that she visited Benin to make a short
documentary on the Agoji, possibly intended to build hype for
The Woman King. It also unravels the film's heroic premise,
as Niango's Beninese guide disillusions her about the Dahomeian legacy.
Niango begins her journey enthusing about how dope it is

(01:27:37):
to be in the land of the Amazons. She's fine, okay,
but after a sobering encounter with Gaezo's skull mounted throne,
she accepts that quote. Any notion of the Agoji being
a beacon of enlightened feminism like the Doramlogi in Wakanda
is long gone unquote. The emotional climax is an interview
with the elderly granddaughter of a woman enslaved by the Amazons,

(01:27:59):
who laments that she will never know her family in
present day in Nigeria. Quote what the Egoji did was
not good at all, the old woman insists, not good
at all. As the woman sings a Yoruba melody, Nyango
begins to cry, wondering aloud how she can reconcile celebrating
the Agoji with the bereavement of their victim's descendants. And

(01:28:20):
then we don't know why she ended up leaving the movie.
But I also didn't know that short doc existed, So
it's very, very complicated.

Speaker 2 (01:28:30):
Yeah, and it's almost as if all history is fraught
with horror, yes, violence and prejudice.

Speaker 3 (01:28:44):
Again, this is like, I'm not arguing against the movie's existence.
I really really enjoyed the movie, but I don't know
that's I think why I struggle with historical epics in general,
where you're like, hmm, what anyways, But I also want
to make sure that we are talking about the other

(01:29:04):
big conversation that surrounded this movie that is very much
rooted in the here and now, which is how difficult
it was to get this movie made and the very
mister Hollywood reasons why it was really difficult to get made.

Speaker 2 (01:29:19):
So just kind of preliminary information as far as who's
behind the camera for this movie. It was directed by
a black woman, Gina Prince Spythewood, who we've covered on
the show before because she directed Love and Basketball as
well as The Old Guard, Secret Life of Bees, Beyond

(01:29:39):
the Lights. She's also directed quite a bit of television
like Girlfriends, Everyone Hates Chris, and The Bernie Mac Show.
The movie was written by Dana Stevens, with like story
by credits from Dana Stevens and Maria Bellow.

Speaker 3 (01:29:58):
Bellow Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:30:02):
And we're back and we're back to Yes, Dana Stevens.
She's a screenwriter who's written a number of things like
City of Angels, for Love of the Game, Steve Haven,
which I think is a movie adapted from a Nicholas
Sparks book.

Speaker 3 (01:30:18):
Oh really wow, and range, I'm pretty sure.

Speaker 2 (01:30:21):
And then Maria Bello has mostly worked as an actor
and I recognize her from Coyote Ugly. She plays like
the bar owner in Coyote Ugly.

Speaker 3 (01:30:31):
Oh wow, wow, a lot of range taking place here.

Speaker 2 (01:30:34):
Yes, Dana Stevens and Maria Bello are both white women.
The whole kind of conceit of this movie happened when
Maria Bella Bello I'm sure it's Bello. In twenty fifteen,
she went to Benin in West Africa, specifically to learn

(01:30:56):
about the history of the Agogi. It seems like she
went on or I don't know if she like went
and then learned about it or went with the intent
of learning about them. Either way, she was like, there's
definitely like a story here, there's a there's a movie
we can make about this. So she returned to La
She recruited a producer, later pitched the idea to Viola Davis.

(01:31:18):
They found a screenwrapolic which I yet which like till
he puts I was, You're oh, by the way, you're like,
she's Maria. And then Jamie, I think you might have
more information. I just have like a very brief overview.
I don't know if you have more.

Speaker 3 (01:31:35):
Okay, So yeah, I mean this, I think we've heard
this story many times. Unfortunately, at this point where this
movie was, I mean like a lot of ois. It
was in kind of development hell for a long time,
starting in twenty fifteen. But a lot of it was
because of Hollywood and producers, especially the further back you go,

(01:31:59):
uh doubt that a majority black cast could be successful
on a blockbuster scale, which is unfortunately something that we
hear a lot. And so you know, having Viola Davis
involved was really really critical because she has such star power.
There was also a fair amount of colorism that Gina

(01:32:23):
Prince Bythewood described in the casting of this movie, where
before Viola Davis signed on, a lot of more light
skinned women were floated as playing Naniska as opposed to
what would be historically accurate, and fortunately a battle that
was won. But I have a quote from Viola Davis

(01:32:46):
sort of speaking to this point. She says, the part
of the movie that we love is also the part
of the movie that is terrifying to Hollywood, which is
it's different, it's new. We don't always want different or
new unless you have a big star attached, a big
male star with studios like it when women are pretty
and blonde or close to pretty and blonde, all of
these women are dark and they're beating men. So there

(01:33:08):
you go. And that was just her talking about why
it was it took so long. And we've heard this
a few times now, because I can't believe, like Black
Panther came out like almost five years ago now, but
it wasn't until Black Panther was massively successful with a
woman army that was based on the Agoji that this

(01:33:29):
movie got a meaningful push ahead. And so again like
this is everything is incremental and and then at that
point I believe Gina Prince Bythewoold signed on. She said
to I think that she did do some work on
the script, but she's not a credited writer. But I
just I thought it was like, I mean, Gina Prince Bythewood,

(01:33:51):
like she walks the walk hard, she's so fucking cool,
Like she advocates for having diversity and giving people opportunities
that most filmmakers in most systems do not prioritize. I
wanted to share a quote from her about really prioritizing

(01:34:12):
having a lot of diversity and women and people of
color behind the scenes as well, because as we talk
about all the time, that does not always happen. But
she says the thing is for women and people of color,
often the resumes are not long because it's about lack
of opportunity, not lack of talent. So when you're in
my position, it's important to look past that resume. And yeah,

(01:34:36):
I mean, she's the coolest. And she also wrote that
kick ass. Okay, take that that word feels That word
feels very twenty thirteen coded to me for some reason.
I take that back. She wrote a really good op
ed when the Woman King was snubbed. It was published

(01:35:00):
in the Hollywood Reporter, and she's just like, I mean,
she's been historically very outspoken speaking on behalf of marginalized filmmakers,
both on behalf of women and on behalf of Black
women specifically, and I think that that op ed prompted
a lot of discussion that was like, very needed. So
I wanted to just share a quote from that. I

(01:35:22):
believe this is at the end quote. It's a difficult
thing to know for every black filmmaker and definitely every
black female filmmaker that your work is not valued in
the same way. This is a systemic American problem, which
is why this felt so insidious and large. It's tough
to enter something that's supposed to be judged on merit
but you know, it's not a meritocracy unquote. And I mean, we'll,

(01:35:46):
we'll link it. It's a really good piece and yeah,
so I mean this. Unfortunately, like we hear a lot,
this movie was not easy to get made, but it
did end up getting made on a pretty large scale.
It has a fifty million dollar budget and it made
around one hundred million dollars. It was successful. And so

(01:36:09):
once again, mister Hollywood is fucking wrong. What do you know?

Speaker 2 (01:36:14):
Something I was curious about and kind of surprised by
when I learned who wrote the screenplay and developed the story. Again,
these these two white women, white American women. I was
curious about because we've often talked about movies that we've

(01:36:35):
covered that make an attempt at, you know, a feminist
theme or are trying to say something about race or racism,
but the movie doesn't quite stick the landing or go
far enough, usually because it was written by someone whose
perspective is not it'll be you know, written by a

(01:36:59):
white person or a man or both. So so there's
often a for effort, a for effort, but like the
perspective wasn't quite there and not enough consulting was done.
So I'm curious Ranke, if you have any thoughts on
aside from the very obvious thing of the people of

(01:37:21):
Dahom speaking English. Right aside from that obvious thing, were
there other things that made it particularly obvious that this movie,
which is about black women in Africa, that it was
written by white women from America? Or does it feel
like they did enough research and that they handled the

(01:37:43):
subject matter with enough care that it wasn't super obvious.
Do you have any thoughts on that?

Speaker 4 (01:37:49):
Yeah, So, when I first watched the movie, and I've
seen it three times, the first time I thought, oh gosh,
beautiful powerful.

Speaker 5 (01:37:56):
Women, black women.

Speaker 4 (01:37:58):
And then the second time, after reading some of the
history and things that went back and what then it
was like, hmm, you know, if a black person, I
think if a black screenwriter was behind the movie, they
would have really brought out Malik and the other guy
who died by the shallow water as some of the
real villains in the movie. I think the way it is,

(01:38:22):
the Portuguese people, whether Malik and the other guy are
the ones who were doing the beats, were very They
weren't really the bad people. They were bad, but it
was more about the all your empire and the Daho
mades promoting slave trade and doing everything. You know, the
Portuguese were seen as the ones who brought the night
gifts and who gave access to the sea and whatever

(01:38:42):
had the shiny boats. It wasn't about the fact that
they were the ones in true history who were behind
slave trade. And this is a whole it's a bone
of contentional. You know, there are people who argue that
the Africans, who sold their people where was responsible for
slave trade, and there are others who argue that the
Bias and mostly the Europeans or sometimes the Americans, were

(01:39:07):
responsible for six Suite. So anyway, my point really is
that I think we would have seen that inherent bias
if the tables were turned, and if it was written
by black script writers, you'd see more of how terrible
the Portuguese were. Otherwise, I really really loved how much
of the culture was brought out, the music, the dance,

(01:39:31):
sharing blades like using one blade on several people. The clothing,
the facial expressions. You know, I felt as an African woman,
as an and Geeran woman. I felt very close to
home by seeing all of that. But again, you know,
there's one thing in seeing the movie from face value

(01:39:53):
and just watching it because it's a nice movie, and
there's another thing in trying to interrogate the history and
the race of the people behind it or their gender.
So for me, first value at that movie, I didn't
think anything was wrong. I left the culture display on reflection.
It was a bit of okay, yeah, maybe this is
not really telling the true story of the rule of

(01:40:16):
the slave traders here, right.

Speaker 2 (01:40:18):
Because they really lean into general oba as being like, yes,
the exact really worst man alive.

Speaker 3 (01:40:28):
Exactly, he's the worst bad guys you said earlier, Yeah, exactly,
the worst back, which is like a trophy that props
up in different ways. But it did feel like, yeah,
he was implied to be worse than the Portuguese, which
does not make sense to me, Like, I think you
can be obviously complicit in the way that I am

(01:40:51):
coming down hard on the king, but like you can
be complicit, but that doesn't Yeah, that felt a little
false equivalence. That's a good point, yeah, yep.

Speaker 4 (01:41:00):
Other than that again, I just really want to say
how much I love the culture or like just watching
them dance. It wasn't just about moving their buddies. It
was the power and the energy, you know, and how
much their fit were heating the ground. It was the
right color of sand of dust.

Speaker 5 (01:41:18):
And I know, this.

Speaker 4 (01:41:19):
Is really crazy. If I remember one time I traveled
to Nigeria, I came back to the UK to London,
and I went to wash my hair and there was
a lot of dust for my trip in my hair.
And I remember the hairdresser calling her colleagues to come
see what Nigerian sand looks like, because it was really
red and stuff. And that was really funny to me.

(01:41:40):
I was like Nigerian sand, but on reflection, you actually
don't find, at least in my part of London.

Speaker 5 (01:41:47):
I never really seen red sand.

Speaker 4 (01:41:49):
But the movie had that, like I think it was
it went down to the detail of what those communities
looked like, the indigo dye boiling in the well somewhere,
the walls, maybe not the clothings of the queens, but
then I mean that was the eighteen hundreds.

Speaker 5 (01:42:06):
I don't think. I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:42:08):
Maybe Queen's dressed like that, then I think that was
a bit extra vagance for West Africa. I don't think
we got that out. They got the outfit right for
the West African queens. But otherwise it was such a beautiful,
we done movie in terms of the culture.

Speaker 3 (01:42:22):
That was displayed. Oh that's good to hear.

Speaker 2 (01:42:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:42:25):
I also is reading just Gina Prince Bythewood. I thought
it was I was so curious of like what movie
she was thinking about. It's just like I like to
know that in general. But she said some of her inspiration.
She said when she was staging. Oh it feels bad
to phrase it that way, but when Niska is having
flashbacks to being assaulted, that she went to Christine blasi

(01:42:49):
Ford's testimony a lot in building out what that was
supposed to look and feel like. And also had the
actor who was playing young Naniska read Roxanne Gay's Hunger,
which is book about her assault. So I thought that
was really interesting. And then she also said what was

(01:43:11):
like She referenced a couple of she I think she
referenced like Gladiator as like when she was looking at
staging the fights. Brave Heart was another one, Braveheart I've
never seen Braveheart, and Last of the Mohicans, which I
haven't seen it. I don't think I want to. But anyways, Gladiator.

Speaker 2 (01:43:30):
One of the last things I want to say, because
we touched on like women as warriors, because we've talked
a million times about the tropes surrounding women fighting on
screen and like their fight choreography. We're talking a lot
about it recently on the john Wick episode. I don't

(01:43:51):
think we need to rehash most of it. But the
one thing that I do want to point out that
we haven't really touched on quite as much is the
sort of like level of groundness when it comes to
the violence, because I feel like usually when you see
women fighting on screen, even if they kill someone, the
violence is not very graphic. Like there's sort of this

(01:44:15):
idea that like, oh, when women kill people, it has
to be you know, it's either implied or like, it
can't be bloody. Yeah, it has to be fine, it
has to be right, or the other thing you'll see
is that I feel like women are way more likely
to be seen showing mercy than a man, where like

(01:44:36):
a woman will maybe be about to kill someone, but
then she won't because like that person appeals to her
emotions and she feels bad and so she shows mercy.
But the agogie are like brutally killing people, and the
movie is not shy about the violence and the blood

(01:44:56):
and then they are you know, people's like personal mile
will vary about like how how graphic they want, you know,
battle scenes to be, but in real life a battle
like this would be very brutal and bloody. And I
appreciated that the movie was not afraid to show the
women warriors being brutal the way that male warriors in

(01:45:18):
movies get to be brutal.

Speaker 3 (01:45:20):
All the time. Yeah, it was not toned down, not
to be more, not at all.

Speaker 4 (01:45:24):
That scene where you get used to her fingers.

Speaker 3 (01:45:27):
Oh yeah, someone's eyes out guard. That was I remember
the first time I saw the trailer, everyone was like,
oh my god, like yeah, that felt I wonder, I
wonder if that was a historic I didn't look up
the historical accuracy of fighting or how much there's even
available about their methods of fighting. But in like the

(01:45:49):
Hollywood movie sense, it kind of felt like the Ponytail
moment and Birds of Prey, where like it's this traditionally
feminine thing, having long nails used to fucking destroy someone. Yeah,
it's pretty cool. I like, I'm like, I'm a sucker,
but I like those moments. I thought that was awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:46:08):
Does anyone else have anything they want to talk about?

Speaker 5 (01:46:13):
Yeah? I think I covered most of the things I had.

Speaker 2 (01:46:16):
Cool.

Speaker 4 (01:46:16):
I can't believe two hours is gone, but I like.

Speaker 3 (01:46:20):
I don't have an hour. I was like, oh, you'll
be surprised.

Speaker 2 (01:46:26):
Well, does this movie pass the Bechdel test?

Speaker 3 (01:46:30):
Yes, yeah, a lot, exclusively, or well more often than not, more.

Speaker 2 (01:46:36):
Often than it doesn't. Yeah, yeah, between a lot of
different combinations of characters. As far as our nipple scale,
the perfect the one trick where we rate the movie
on a scale of zero to five nipples based on
examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, I will

(01:47:00):
give this four maybe like four point two five nipples.
Just a couple of things we talked about as far
as like and Ronk at your point about if this
movie had been written by a black woman, that they
probably would have framed the like European slavers as the

(01:47:21):
primary villains and not another African person. Because mister Evil
is the like o Yo General and he's like the
main villain of the movie. But there's a lot to
love about this movie, the dismantling of that strong black
woman trope of you know, always having to be like

(01:47:42):
unrealistically strong and resilient when that expectation is so unfair
for black women. The movie deals with serious and painful
subject matter. I mean, it's covering things like slavery and
human trafficking and war, and but the movie also takes
time to show black joy, largely through the relationships between women.

(01:48:08):
It strikes a really nice balance of the heavier and
more painful topics but also showing a lot of black
joy in black love.

Speaker 3 (01:48:17):
Yeah, like that just showing the full spectrum of humanity,
like tragedy.

Speaker 2 (01:48:25):
Right, So I appreciated that. You know, there are some
historical inaccuracies, and I remember the conversation like when the
movie was released in theaters, there's kind of like a
push to ban the movie and like not go seek,
which is ridiculous. People's reasoning was like, well, the nation

(01:48:48):
featured in the movie was they were active participants in
the slave trade. And while that is true, the movie
takes some historical liberties to show different characters fighting against that,
and yes, that wasn't historically accurate. I don't know. It's complicated,
and I don't know. I mean, I don't think it

(01:49:09):
where to land on it.

Speaker 3 (01:49:10):
I don't think that tanking the movie's success is going
to unfortunately, because it always feels like, especially movies made
by marginalized creators, that like it's mister fucking mister Hollywood,
a person who exists, but like that system is always
looking for an example to point to, to be like, see,

(01:49:31):
people don't want to see women leading a movie. People
don't want to see an all black or a majority
black cast in a movie. And yeah, I understand why
people would be upset about the historical inaccuracies. I think
that's very valid, But I don't think that the appropriate
response is to be like, let's tank this movie, like yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (01:49:52):
Don't know, Yeah it's tricky, but yeah, there's a lot
to love about this movie. The focus on the female relationships,
the focus on the female warriors, because historical action epics
like this are never about women, and especially never about
black women, and again, to represent them as having a
range of personalities and emotions and to get to see

(01:50:15):
their physical strength and combat skills and see them kicking
ass to go back to kick ass as a frame, Yeah,
we're living in the past. I like that you see
a woman Naniska be recognized for her contributions and skills
and leadership and be elevated to this powerful position of

(01:50:39):
woman king. I like that you see another woman, Nawi
be rebellious and challenge the status quo and the patriarchal
sexist double standards they have to live by. Just a
lot of cool stuff happening. So I will give the
movie four and a quarter nip. I'll give one to

(01:51:01):
Villa Davis. I'll give one to the director, Gina Prince Bythewood,
I'll give one to Lashawna Lynch who plays Isogi, and
I'll give one to Tusso, who plays not We. I
really loved all of those performances.

Speaker 3 (01:51:21):
I'm gonna go. I guess I'm gonna go for I
will be honest. The historical stuff does bug me a
little bit, especially after reading a little bit about the
Lupida Yango short doc in which you know, the descendants
of people who had been victimized were not okay with it,
And I think that those opinions should carry and matter,

(01:51:45):
and again it's it's I don't know this. This genre
is never gonna be a historically pure genre. Like I
can't think of a historical epic that is famous for
being accurate. They're mostly famous for being epic and often
famous for glorifying people who were not that great. And
I think that this movie does a lot to avoid

(01:52:07):
the trappings of the historical epic. But I also attributing
a totally an almost completely one eighty political philosophy to
a person that actually existed, it does bug me a
little bit. I'm also a history head. I don't know, however,
to echo everything you just said, Kaitlyn. I mean, it's
a fucking good movie, and I and I it's you know,

(01:52:28):
centering majority black woman cast. I feel like you often
hear when movies are centered around black women that there's
often colorism involved. That doesn't seem to have been the case. Here.
We get to see them fight and you know, be
brutal and ruthless, and we also good at poor people,
be good at war, which is what they should have

(01:52:49):
called it, the good at war. Uh women, Yeah, but
you also get to see their humanity, you get to
see their different personalities, their different relationships, they're conflicts with
each other, get you get it all in a way
that is very very very unusual. And I think that
this movie is just like good and also the fact

(01:53:11):
that it was successful means that hopefully we can see
more African historical epics that come out in Hollywood and
maybe there you know, again we're always talking about on
the show, like how progress is incremental. It was our idea.
We were the first people.

Speaker 2 (01:53:30):
To say this correct, yes that's true, but.

Speaker 3 (01:53:32):
That the success of The Woman King can lead to
an even better, possibly more historically accurate African epic. I
like those odds. I feel good about it, and it's
just yeah, really beautiful, well performed movie, and it shouldn't
have been snubbed in the way it was across and

(01:53:52):
I feel like, well, you know, there has been incremental
progress in those systems. And also, oh my gosh, Danielle
Deadweiler is that her name? Who was until that movie
also got massively snubbed. And I'm glad that Gina Prince
Bythewood is always, always always using her not that she
should have to, but she's always using her platform to

(01:54:16):
bring attention to how disrespected black women still are in
entertainment and in general today. So I'm going to go
for nipples, I guess. I'm going to give one to
Gina Prince Bythewood. I'm going to give one to Lashana
Lynch because she's my fave. I love her. I'm going
to give one to Viola Davis, and I'm going to

(01:54:37):
give one to Lupita Nango because I'm intrigued and I
hope she talks about this someday. Yeah, Ronka, how about you.

Speaker 4 (01:54:46):
First again allowed to take Nichols to the men.

Speaker 2 (01:54:50):
You can do whatever you want, you do whatever.

Speaker 4 (01:54:53):
Yeah, okay, that's just by the way. I mean, I
share the re as from both of you. I really
enjoyed the movie, so I will give it a maybe
four point five because I'm really nice and taking away
the point five for that history reason. I feel like

(01:55:13):
it's a movie to enjoy and watch. But then there's
also the risk that it perpetuates the wrong story of history.
So you know, while the writers can give the excuse
and this is just a movie and it's fictionalizes and.

Speaker 5 (01:55:27):
YadA YadA, I mean the people like us.

Speaker 4 (01:55:29):
That they didn't study these things in school.

Speaker 5 (01:55:31):
This is the way we learn it.

Speaker 4 (01:55:32):
And if people don't go the extra mile of going
to find the actual history, this is all the history
they know. And of course you know there are people
who are actual victims of some of the work that
the ago Ja women did and the Dahomi community and
the old or your empire, and them having to watch this,
like Coupeter mentioned in her interview and maybe documentary, them

(01:55:55):
having to watch this and see that their rules out
as victims have acted, they've been erased. I think is
really is really unfair, because this is a movie, at
least a PostScript or something at the end to say
this is really fictionalized, we've done this, we've done that,
or we pay respect to the men and women who

(01:56:16):
died as a result of the slave trader, whose lives
were changed as a result of the slave trader. I
think the movie should have done that at the end
of it. I really love the culture, like I said
earlier on, and I want to emphasize about the black women,
like it is so powerful to see dark skin black women.
And I mean, we could take this for granted in

(01:56:36):
some ways, but in other ways it is this is
not something you normally see in Hollywood. Most times when
black women are featured in Hollywood. It's played by black
women who have maybe a white father or a white mother,
and so you know, they're lighter skin and by no
faults of years, I think they're really beautiful. But the
narrative that dark skinned black women are not beautiful needs

(01:57:00):
to be changed. I think this movie has contributed to change.

Speaker 5 (01:57:03):
In that narrative.

Speaker 4 (01:57:04):
I mean, despite how powerful and strong they looked, the
Agoja women came off as extremely beautiful to me. So
I really loved the movie for that. I love the goddness,
not because I enjoy seeing God, but you know, that
confidence and power that the women were allowed to show

(01:57:24):
was really great. The rebellion of now We Again, you know,
thumbs up for writing that in because and it wasn't
just about dating or being with maleig or flatting with men.
It was also about challenging Naniska and standing up to
her in different ways.

Speaker 5 (01:57:42):
So I really really loved that.

Speaker 4 (01:57:45):
In the sense of fiction, I loved King Getsu and
I loved him because you could see that he was
listening to Naniska. He respected her in places where you know,
in the King's Coming, where the other men, the other
the head of the male warriors would try to undermine Naniska.

(01:58:06):
You could see him, you know, speaking up for her
in some cases and actually taking her advice. So it
was really good to see that happen. I think that's fiction.

Speaker 2 (01:58:16):
Yeah, he went to those palm oil fields. He's like that,
I guess, exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:58:24):
Exactly, so he was actually listening to her, which is
quite unusual. So yeah, by four point five.

Speaker 5 (01:58:32):
Can I give to Nippos to Viola Davis?

Speaker 4 (01:58:34):
Oh my god, oh gosh. She is such a powerful, strong, confident,
beautiful woman. And I'm probably a bit biased because I
watched Woman King and then I read her book Finding Me.
I think that's the title, And I just feel like
I found another side of Viola that I can't let

(01:58:54):
go off so too because to her, of course it's okay.
She he was really the big sister, but also more
experienced soldier, powerful soldier, confident, but also empathetic, you know,
going back to get Nawi at the end and then
getting shot at that point. Of course. Now, I really

(01:59:15):
really loved Nawi young confidence, the scene where she pushed
the man who hit her, the one who was trying
to get married to her, right in front of her parents.
This is twenty twenty three, and I think they'll be
a handful of African women or African girls who can
actually fight an elderly person.

Speaker 5 (01:59:33):
In front of their parents.

Speaker 4 (01:59:35):
So her doing that in the eighteen hundred, big ups
to her rebellion. The point five is the King Gizer
because I really like John Boyega. He's of Nigerian origin,
so that was really good to see. And I think
he put in so much effort in trying to do
the right accent. And people have criticized him for this accent,

(01:59:59):
but I think that was a it's not easy to
I don't know where that accent is from. I don't
think it's not it's definitely not Nigerian. I don't know
if it's Beny Noir from New Day or Today's Dajome,
But anyway, I think he did make an effort in
speaking the right accent, but also because he supported Naniska
through it. So four point five, I think is.

Speaker 3 (02:00:20):
What I give very nice.

Speaker 2 (02:00:22):
I think I forgot to give my quarter nipple away,
so I'm going to give it to mister Purple.

Speaker 3 (02:00:27):
Mister Purse.

Speaker 4 (02:00:28):
I can't forget mister Pople.

Speaker 3 (02:00:31):
Give us a Netflix series with mister purple.

Speaker 2 (02:00:34):
Was he implied to be a eunuch because there's a
reference to men being some of the men in the
palace being eunis. And I'm honestly maybe filling in a
lot of blanks myself, but I was like, I wonder
if he's supposed to be a eunuch. I'm not sure. Anyway,
I love him no matter what.

Speaker 3 (02:00:52):
That's the best.

Speaker 2 (02:00:53):
Well, Frankie, thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 3 (02:00:55):
What a treat this has been.

Speaker 2 (02:00:57):
Everyone read Ronky's piece about this movie and we'll link it,
of course, along with the other things we'd mentioned. We
link where can people follow you online and check out
anything else you want them to check out?

Speaker 4 (02:01:14):
On Twitter at all your own care underscore and I
think you'll link it right, Yes, but yeah, I think
Twitter is the best place to find me crawling and
being quiet and tweeting about the books I need.

Speaker 3 (02:01:28):
I love it. Yes, the best use of the internet possible, exactly.
You can find us all the regular places on Instagram
and Twitter. At Bechdel Cast. You can join our patreon
akamatreon at patreon dot com slash bectyl Cast, where for
five bucks a month you get two additional episodes every
single month. How about that this month we're.

Speaker 2 (02:01:50):
Doing dolls coming all life.

Speaker 3 (02:01:54):
We're doing life size, and we're doing Megan, So really
all killer, no filler on the major around this month.

Speaker 2 (02:02:01):
Yeah, and you can check out our merch at teapublic
dot com slash the Bechdel Cast, where you can find
all of your merchandising needs, all designed by one Jamie Loftus.

Speaker 3 (02:02:15):
Wowoo, good for her. And with that, let's go. I mean,
if we want to have a light afternoon, you know,
just like tear shark teeth out of each other's shoulders.

Speaker 2 (02:02:29):
That let's do that. Yes, okay, bye bye