Thirteen with Maggie Mae Fish

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bell Cast. The questions asked if movies have
women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best
start changing it with the beck Del cast. Hey thirteen
year old Jamie. It's me, thirteen year old Caitlin Hey,

(00:21):
thirteen year old Caitlin is thirteen year old Jamie. Um,
I'm about to who how do we okay? Listeners? We
were struggling with an intro, who is okay? Here's a question,
the central question of thirteen I thought when I was thirteen,
I was wrong, is who's the bad guy? Did not

(00:43):
occur to me that the bad guy was society? But I,
you know, of the two of us, who is the
bad influence? Good question? I know, Oh my gosh, well
it's hard to say. I actually now right now I'm
really thinking about it. We we have kind of equal
amounts of like we both have chaotic instincts, but they're

(01:06):
like not the same instincts. So I guess it depends
on like there's certain things that you're the bad influence on,
and then there's certain things on the beat. And that's
why we create a whole bad person because one bad
person collectively Hell yeah, because I was gonna say, like,
we have equal amounts of like tattoos, because tattoos equals bad.

(01:29):
Tattoos are bad. Do you what is your peers? I
don't have. I wanted a belly ring so bad in
middle school. It was physically painful. And my cousin Tammy,
who everyone in the Zoom Call has met, we went
to um eye Hoop with her and had minions breakfast
ever of it. Some really some real bad girls ship

(01:54):
at the eye hop. But she was allowed to get
a belly ring and I wasn't. And it was devastating,
I'm sure, and it was she was like even we
were both such like goody two shoes, but she was
even goody two shoes or so I think my aunt
was like, we gotta give this girl some edge. Yes,
you can get a belly y. I love that for Tammy,

(02:16):
shout out. The only thing I have pierced are my ears,
but I have like double piercings in the lobes and
then like a cartilage piercing. So cartilage, okay, cartilage is
like that's cool. And it was the first piercing I
got before I even got my lobes pierced, which is
kind of wild. You went directly for the bone. Um,

(02:36):
I mean the cartilage. But yeah, okay, oh okay, Nerd,
there there's a difference. Actually, thank you, resident biologist Kate Rent.
You're welcome. You're so welcome. That one's painful, though, it's
so painful, and it was like effected for a year,
and because I got it done at Claire's obviously and

(02:58):
it was just not the best experience. Then I got
my lobes pierced a few years later, which it's nothing comparatively.
I don't like being in physical pain even for one second.
And so I my lobe holes uh closed like a
year ago, and I have yet to go to Claris
to resolve the issue. My mom and I have this

(03:21):
I like, this is my very mother daughter episode and
then we're gonna start the show. My mom used to
love to do this thing when I was a kid,
where if I was getting something exciting done, my mom
would be like, what if I want up to that?
And so when I went to Claire's to get my
lobes pierced, and I think I was like six seven
something like that, she just like we were at Claire's

(03:43):
at the Westgate Mall in Brocton. And then she was like,
she was like talking to this sixteen year old. This
is my memory, So she's more of a villain in
my memory than probably what's happening in real life. But
she's talking to like the fifteen year old who worked
at Clari's, and she's like, should I get my ears? Piers?
Should I get my car artilage? Piers as like, MoMA,
this is my day. And she did and she still

(04:05):
has it. Jill stole your thunder. Jill goes hard. Jill
goes hard. She's like, she's like a little girl. You
think you're gonna get your lobes, Piers, Well, guess what
mommy's going for the cart? All right, we might cut
that from the episode. It's hard to say. Come to
the Becktel cast. My name is Caitlin. Sorry that was exciting.

(04:32):
Well again, we are together, one whole person, so we
do have to speak in unison. Yes, take me orantis.
Oh yeah, I'll figure it out. We'll workshop it. We'll
workshop it. There's time. This is our show, so where
we analyze movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the
Bechtel tests. Simply as a jumping off point. The Bechtel

(04:54):
Test being, of course, a media metric created by a
queer cartoonist, Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test
that has many different variations, but the one we use
requires that two people of a marginalized gender have names
speak to each other about something other than a man,
and ideally that conversation is like substantial, narratively relevant, et cetera.

(05:17):
Not a huge deal in this movie. There's there's a lot,
there's interaction between teen girls and women. It's really not
a problem. Yeah, And we have an incredible returning guest
today to cover this two thousand and three, Katherine Hardwick
Nicky read Evan rachel Wood classic. Please let's get her

(05:40):
in the room, shall we, Caitlin, Let's do it. She's
a writer, actor, and video essayist. You remember her from
our episode on Edwards scissor Hands. It's Maggie may Fish.
Welcome back. Welcome. Sorry I meant to say, um, thirteen
year old Maggie may Fishing on this episode. Oh no,

(06:02):
I'm already sweating just as I remembered. Uh, Hi, guys,
it's so great to be back. Welcome back this is
and and what a what a vibe shift for for
this episode. Yeah, although both like you know, kind of
like trying to be like Edgy in a way, a

(06:23):
lot of angst, a lot of angst. Each director had
their own approach. Yeah. Yeah, I'm very um excited, confused,
like honestly going into preparing for this episode. Um. Well,
we'll talk about our experience with this movie in a second,
But this is a really really tricky movie to talk about.

(06:44):
The more you learn about the production, the more you
learn about like it's I'm coming in with my opinions
a little malleable, and the more I watch that there's
been a lot of interesting retrospective work done, Like both
lead actors and Catherine Hardwick have been super open about
talking about this movie almost twenty years down the line. Now,

(07:04):
it's just there's there's a lot to discuss. So to begin,
Maggie may Fish, what is your history with the movie? Oh? Man,
I felt like my experience of this movie is very iconic. Uh,
it was a cool girl having to sleep over in
her very fancy house that was close to the beach

(07:27):
as all the cool houses where and all the cool
people lived. Yeah, she was turning thirteen sleepover. We watched
this movie. I think we also rented it behind her
mom's back. I think, I think, yeah, yeah, yeah. When
this movie came out, we definitely were because yeah, we
were like younger than thirty. We were not allowed to

(07:47):
watch it. It was not allowed, but the movie was
called thirteen and they were sticking their tongues out. You
did have to watch it. Yes, it felt very um
underground in a way. You know, it was like a
movie for people our age quote unquote, even though it's not.

(08:09):
And then watching it, I read who that's my big question?
Who was this movie for? Who is this for? Who's
this movie for? Um? Yeah, I do remember, and it
came back to me as we were watching it. I
remember the overall feeling of being like, how are we
supposed to feel about the mom? And are we getting
creepy vibes from her? Or is this just she's jealous?

(08:33):
Like if we were all very confused. Um, none of
us had a relationship with our moms like this, and
though we all had very complicated relationships with our mothers. Um,
so yeah that was just upon first impression. Uh, And
we did feel very cool watching it. I mean, I mean,
that's what that Jamie. What's your history in relationship with

(08:57):
the movie. UM, I don't remember exactly how we got
our hands on this movie, because this movie, I think
we probably I probably saw it like maybe the year
whenever it was like became available at I'm guessing Blockbuster.
But I I very clearly remember watching this with one
of my closest female friends who was like a neighborhood
friend who I had a very close, um, maybe a

(09:20):
little bit unhealthy relationship with. Um. Yeah, I will not
name her. She's doing great now, she's the best. But
we were super close growing up and like especially like
in middle school, we liked dance classes together, we did
after school stuff together. We like watch things we weren't

(09:41):
supposed to watch. We weren't doing like thirteen Ship, but
we were like, we were like we could do that,
you know, Like I don't know, it was just like
a very like my close friend who I loved, sleeping
in the same bed as and we would watch Degrassi
and thirteen is basically like X Game de Grassy and

(10:02):
so like we were like, oh, we thought it goes
there on the grassy, which was the tagline at the time. Well,
guess what, thirteen, It actually scared us. But also it
was like that sort of thing, like when you encounter
something like this when you're at that age, and I'm
guessing I was probably eleven or twelve when we watched it.
Um Like, there's a part of this movie that makes

(10:23):
you want to do everything in it, and that's a
part that I'm very critical of. And we talked about
this on the show before. It's like I had the
same kind of feeling towards the Grassy, Like there's certain
things that happened in this movie that I think are
like wildly unethical to show on screen, and it's anyone
I was looking through stuff at the time. It just
like this movie was co written by a thirteen year old.

(10:44):
It's absurd to think that thirteen year olds would not
find this movie. And so in some ways, I'm like,
this is really unethical, and then in other ways it
was a very effective cautionary tale about stuff that like
I don't know again, like I was a super goody
two shoes, and like watching this movie, I almost definitely

(11:05):
didn't hadn't heard of or didn't understand most of what
they were encountering or a lot of what they were encountering.
But yeah, I think I only watched it like once
or two, I mean for as long as the blockbuster
rental lasted. But we like talked about it and we
were like, who's Eavy, Who's Tracy, blah blah blah, Like
we were really into it. And then I didn't revisit

(11:27):
it for years and years, And it was a wild
thing to rewatch because but the first time this came out,
for example, I didn't know who Vanessa Hudgins was. She
wasn't famous, and now we know. Now we all know
who Vanessa Hudgens. And the princess switched herself. She really
did something there, and uh yeah, it was like this movie,

(11:51):
I have such complicated feelings towards it, and as I
was preparing for this episode, I was struggling to untangle
my middle school self and analyze seeing it as a
crusty adult. So let's see how this goes. Caitlin, what's
your history with the movie thirteen? Well, I did see
it not long after it came out. I think, like
also when it became available to rent on like DVD,

(12:15):
maybe even VHS back then that covers hard to ignore.
I really got three. It's so like scrap booky looking. Yeah,
I loved it. Um So, I was like sixteen or seventeen, sixteen,
I think when this movie came out, so I was,

(12:35):
you know, still an impressionable teenager, but um older than
the characters. Thirteen year olds are famously feral. I feel
like by the time you're sixteen, you're a little less feral, right,
I mean, I guess it just depends on the person.
Maybe you're more feral by then. Some people are, that's true,
and some people stay feral their whole lives. And you

(12:57):
look at but um, I was also, uh, I was.
I was quite the goody two shoes myself. So I
found this movie like understandable but also disturbing at the time,
and I think that's the same impression I have of

(13:17):
it now. I find this movie more stressful to watch
than Uncut Gems. I guess that that is like the
go too stressful movie didn't compare it to but for
like different reasons obviously. I mean, I will say, before
preparing for this episode, I knew nothing about the production

(13:38):
background about Believing, and I sort of went into this
rewatched thinking this movie had to have been strictly a
cautionary tale, like in the way that I feel like
every generation has its like grand cautionary tale. I know
that my mom gave me a copy of her Generations

(13:59):
Cautionary tail, Go ask Alice Ship. Yeah, I wrote that
book right when I was a kid, and like that
for for listeners not in the know of how go
ask Alice culture, it's very bizarre. It is also a
cautionary tale about a young girl. I don't remember how
old she is in the book, but um, it's supposed
to be like an anonymous journal from like the nineties

(14:20):
seventies of a young girl who gets into drugs and
sex very young it destroys her life. Later on it
was revealed that it was not an anonymous journal by
a twelve year old girl who I think canonically dies. Um,
it was written by an old lady under an assumed
name to scare young girls out of doing anything. It's

(14:46):
far more complicated than that. But this is like a
recurring I feel like every generation has a story like this.
But the kind of like wrench in that for thirteen
is that Nicky Reid was extremely involved in the writing
of this, So there was a thirteen year old girl

(15:07):
and it's like based off of her life, right, and
it's like, so a thirteen year old girl's perspective is
like absolutely cannon to this movie. And rewatching it back,
it was like, oh, I feel like that actually does
come through Again, we'll get into the ethics of it,
but yeah, this is a really sticky, interesting movie. Indeed,

(15:28):
shall I recap it? Yeah? Good luck. I love this
part of the podcast. By the way, Caitlin, thank you
so much for doing it every time. Truly, she's braver
than the truths for this. Oh my goodness, thank you
so much. Um. Well, actually, let's take a quick break
first and then I'll come back and recap. And we're

(15:55):
back and here they are with the famous Caitlin. First,
I'll do a content slash trigger warning for everything, like
for for everything self harm, teen drug use, teens, sex,

(16:15):
and sexuality that's mostly suggested and not but like some
of it is kind of shown on screen. What else,
I mean, discussion of sexual abuse and physical abuse, of
depictions of overdose, kind of name it. It's referenced or
happens in the movie. Right. Yeah, So the movie opens,

(16:39):
we meet two girls who are presumably thirteen years of age.
One of them is Tracy played by Evan rachel Wood.
We see her friend also, who will turn out to
be e V. Samora. They are inhaling like keyboard cleaner,
like some kind of thing from an aerosol can. They're

(17:02):
getting high. They are punching each other because they can't
feel anything, and they're trying to see if they can
like sense paint. We then cut to four months earlier.
Tracy is a you know, quote unquote normal kid. She
comes from kind of like a lower middle class background,
working class background. We meet Tracy's mom, Melanie played by

(17:25):
Holly Hunter. Did not know who Holly Hunter was. The
first time I saw this movie totally forgot she was
in it. I did because Oh, Brother Were Art though,
was one of my favorite movies at the time, So yeah,
you're so cool. Oh my gosh. Melanie is a single mom.

(17:45):
She works as a hairdresser. She's in a twelve step program.
We also meet Tracy's older brother, Mason played by Brady Corbett,
who goes to school with Tracy. It seems like he's
like a year or two older. We also meet Tracy's
friend Noel that's Vanessa Hudgens Wild how Vanessa Hudgens was

(18:07):
like just They're like, oh, we need a good girl.
We gotta get Vanessa Hudgens in the mix, like she
was so good girl Cannon in this era high school
musical much the Best Girl, Find Me a Better Girl.
We see Tracy and Noel on their first day of

(18:30):
first day, I'm not sure a day of seventh grade.
There's another girl at school, Evie Zamora, played by Nicky Reid,
who again co wrote the screenplay. This movie is based
on her experience from like ages twelve to thirteen. Also,
the use of the name Evie. I was like, okay, Bible, okay,
that's interesting. Is there a biblical character named I've never

(18:53):
read them? Well, here is Eve, the o g tempest.
Do I tell them this story? Have heard of Eve?
I That my guess is because this movie does makes
a lot of broad writing choices, that the use of

(19:15):
Eve was intentional because she goes into a garden and
then there's like a snake there and the snake is like,
eat this apple. And he was like, okay, well, I
feel like a story right, That's exactly how it goes.
It's like the moral is um women are bad um.
Except for Vanessa Hudgens, except for Vanessa Hudgens, who gets

(19:37):
written out in midway that scene where poor sweetie Vanessa
Hudgens is in her like puppy shirt or whatever, and
it's like Evan Rachel would hang out with me and
they're like look and then just like bail on her.
You're like Vanessa sad. And then she goes to a
ski lodge with her family and her life changes because
she meets to think that that's can and she's like,

(20:01):
I have to my only friend broke up with me.
I have to move to East High exactly. Okay. So
there's this girl Evie. She's like very popular, she's cool.
All the boys like her, all the girls think she's
super cool. Tracy is feeling very insecure about like her

(20:24):
clothes and just sort of her whole persona because some
like girls make a mean comment about what she's wearing.
So she comes home, she like throws away all of
her barbies and stuffed animals, and she wants to be
more mature, more grown up. And part of this is
her approaching ev at school and like trying to befriend her,
and Evie is like, why don't you call me after

(20:45):
school and we can go shopping on Melrose And I'm like, Okay,
I guess we're in Los Angeles. Ever heard of it there?
This is already where I feel like me and Tracy
diverged in a wood at that time, because I would
never be have enough to talk to a popular girl,
especially if she then gave me a fake phone number.
I would um, I would walk into the ocean if

(21:07):
that had happened. Yes, But this does not deter Tracy,
and she goes and somehow knows exactly where Evie is
shopping at this exact moment, and she goes to this
store because she does try to call Evie and like
the numbers not in service, so it's like, oh, I
guess Evie gave her the wrong phone number on purpose,

(21:29):
question Mark. But Tracy goes to find her, and she
watches Evie and her friend shoplift, which Tracy is like,
oh my gosh, this is new territory. But then she
goes and steals a woman's wallet at a bus stop
or she was having a bad day, she was having
a bad day. You get here and then her wallet

(21:50):
with and it's full of cash. So Tracy Evie and
Evie's friend Asterriid. I think we learned her name is.
They go to say Chers and buy a bunch of shoes.
I know the Sketchers they go to. Do you guys
know the Sketchers. I think it's still there. If it's
the Hollywood Boulevard Sketchers, I'm like, I've browsed there, Okay,

(22:12):
browsed there. Wow. I can't believe I went to the
Sketchers from thirteen. I didn't even know. Amazing A great story.
Um So back home. Tracy's mom Melanie her on again,
off again boyfriend Brady played by what's the guy's name?

(22:33):
Jeremy's sister. How do we know who Jeremy's sister is?
Every time I see him, I go oh yeah, oh
yeah him? Is that? What is he famous for? How
do we know who? Oh? He was in six ft Under?
That doesn't help because I didn't want to show. But
I think that that's what people know him from. Oh
he's in clueless. I think that's what I recognize him from.

(22:54):
As Elton. Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, yes he's the
guy that you're supposed to want share with and then
he turns out to be an asshole and he bails
on her. Right, that's Jeremy Sister, got it. Yes, he
is an addict, like recovering addict. Who um. It's suggested

(23:15):
that like he and Melanie know each other from the
twelve step program, he also seems to like bail on
Melanie and kind of only be around when it's convenient
for him. So Tracy really resents him and the way
that he treats her mom and also has been like
exposed to him withdrawing from drugs in a way that
I think was really scary for her or position as. Yeah,

(23:37):
the way this movie treats addiction I thought was interesting,
like where it's like you can totally understand that from
a however old she was then eleven or twelve year
olds perspective, that's a really scary thing to see. And
also that that's not that doesn't make Jeremy Sister a
bad person. Like, Yeah, So Tracy and ev get closer.

(24:01):
Evi turns out to sell acid. She and Tracy go
to a park, they get high, they're kissing some boys.
They're spending more and more time with each other, and
Tracy is spending less and less time with her mom,
less and less time with Vanessa Hudgens. That's a red flag,

(24:22):
a bat path. I feel like, so Evie is sort
of like the Vanessa Hudgens character and princess switched to
the bad what was her name? Fiona? And honestly amazing
that you remember that. I think that that is true.
I would not have gotten that with a gun to
my head. And then Vanessa Hudgens character in the movie

(24:44):
thirteen is Vanessa Hudgens, the Chicago Baker, the worst Vanessa Hudgens,
as far as I'm concerned, the flop Vanessa Hudgens. I
hate that the main Vanessa Hudgens is like the worst one.
It's like, give me more bad British accent Vanessa Hudgens
where she's what I'm saying, yeah, exactly, heart degree. So Tracy,

(25:10):
you know, she's again she's kind of bailing on her
her like former friends and family. She's slacking off at school,
she's dressing more suggestively, she gets her tongue pierced, and
we're like, okay, Evie perhaps is a bad influence on Tracy.
And then Evie confides in Melanie that Evie's guardian, this

(25:32):
woman Brooke, who is Evie's older cousin that Brook's boyfriend
is physically abusive to Evie. And then this is kind
of the start of a relationship between Evie and Melanie
that we can unpack. But there's some kind of there's
a dynamic happening here that's worth discussing. Every complicated to me.

(25:55):
The movie starts to get like, this is where yeah,
I mean, this is where I come undone. You're just like,
but but ev essentially moves in to the family home
because everyone is allowed to move into the family home, right,
Because there's a friend of Melanie's who is played by

(26:20):
the same actor who plays Bella Swan's mom in Twilight,
which this is like ground zero Catherine Hardwick, which is
why I never connected that. That's why Nicki Reid is
a cullin. Yes, she plays Rosalie. Is that right? Yeah,
and that's how I feel like she became super super famous.

(26:42):
But I I totally forgot that, Like that is why
she probably got cast in that movie. Wild. Didn't even
make that connection until like two days ago. Yeah, well,
I didn't realize and we'll get into it. I didn't
realize that Nikki Reid like grew up with Catherine hart
I mean, I guess why would you infer that? But

(27:03):
like their relationship is very close and like still I
mean I watched a bunch of interviews from like just
a couple of years ago. It seems like the three
of them Evan Rachel would Nicky Reid, and um, Katherine
Hardwick are still very close, which I think is sweet.
But then also the ethics of this movie are so weird. Okay,

(27:24):
circle bam. The point is though, that, um, that Melanie
is extremely accommodating and whenever someone needs help, she kind
of bends over backwards to help them. So she has
this friend who has a young daughter who uh stay
with them for a few days, and she's again a
hairdresser who seems to like feed all of her clients
all the time. She's just very accommodating. Um, it's hard

(27:47):
not to like love mel She really cares about people.
But then sometimes it's like but this, you're you're fostering
and not help the environment for your kids. But also
sometimes you're like, but I get why she wants to
help people out. No, yeah, she's complicated. Meanwhile, Tracy's dad,

(28:09):
who is obviously like separated from Melanie, he bails on
spending time with Tracy, which upsets her, as does Melanie
continuing to see this guy Brady. So there's a lot
of stuff with Tracy's family that is upsetting to her,
and Tracy's relationship with Melanie is getting more and more tense.

(28:31):
We're also seeing like Eve trying to get closer to
Tracy's mom in this weird and arguably manipulative way a
lot of times. Um we also see Tracy self harming.
We'll go back to that because I really don't think
they should have shown that you can address that without

(28:52):
showing thirteen year old how to do that. Get Then
this guy Hobby wants to like hang out with Slash
go out with Tracy, and so he and some other
guy go over to Evie's place and hang out with
Tracy and Evie. We see the two kind of pairs

(29:13):
of them making out, and then it's later implied that
Tracy gives Hobby oral sex. Things are continuing to get
more and more out of hand. Tracy and Evie like
sneak out when they're supposed to be at the movies.
Tracy gets all funked up. She's been like experimenting with
drugs this whole time, drugs and alcohol. Her brother Mason

(29:34):
catches her. He's ready to tell on her. He like
slut shames her things like hit critical mass at home,
where Melanie finds out a bunch of stuff. She finds
out about Tracy's different piercings. Tracy's really acting out, and
Melanie wants Tracy to go live with her dad a bit,

(29:55):
but he's too busy with work and just kind of
absent overall. He's not able to take her in. And
then Tracy is like, well, I think I would get
along better with everyone if Evie could just live here,
which very much puts Melanie on the spot, but because
she's so kind of like accommodating, she doesn't like challenge
this at first. Um then we cut to the scene

(30:18):
we saw at the beginning where Tracy and Evie are
huffing the air soul and getting high and punching each other.
Melanie sees the aftermath of this, and it's like, what
the fuck? And there's also this at the time, it
looks honestly a little goofy now, but at the time
I was like, wow, iconic. As she descends into thirteen

(30:41):
year old debauchery. The aesthetic of the movie. The movie
just gets bluer and bluer and bluer, and then at
the end it looks like a scene from Twilight, which
her name. It's a very blue and gray movie. It's
just like you're watching Katherine Hardwick arrive at her Twilight
aesthetic throughout the course of this movie, and it is

(31:02):
like watching it now, I'm just like, this feels like
such a cautionary tale where it like almost feels like
a p s a creative choice. But at that time,
I was like, I know, you're like, oh my god, genius, genius.
Never seen anything like it. So Tracy she misses a

(31:23):
big school project. She lies to her teacher. She's basically
hitting rock bottom, especially after Evie starts blowing her off
because Melanie was like, sorry, Evie, I can't let you
live here. So Tracy now feels abandoned by Evie and
the other popular girls. She feels abandoned by her dad.

(31:45):
She's self harms again. She then learns that she might
fail the seventh grade and get held back, and then
Melanie and Brooke again Evie's guardian hold basically like an intervention.
After finding at Ash of drugs and money that was
hidden around Tracy's room, stuff that Evie had put there,

(32:05):
but is not taking the fall for it. She's kind
of dumping all the blame on Tracy and Evie and
Brooke act like Tracy is the one who had been
a bad influence on Evie. But luckily Melanie sees through
this bullshit and kicks them out. Tracy is just sobbing.
Melanie comforts her, She discovers Tracy's injuries from self harming,

(32:29):
and then just embraces Tracy, and the movie ends with
Melanie spending the night holding and comforting Tracy. So that
is how the movie ends. Let's take a quick break
and then come back to discuss, and we're back. I

(32:52):
do feel like, before getting into the main discussion, the
production history of this movie is really relevant. I want
to learn more. Yeah, because I am blissfully ignorant of
what went down. So this is like a very I
don't know. I mean, throughout the course of researching this,
I feel like my personal opinion changed several times. So

(33:16):
I was surprised to see that Nikki Reid, who was
fourteen when this movie was shot, is a credited screenwriter
on this movie not you know, call me ages. But
I didn't know fourteen year olds can write movies. Um,
but here is the situation. Okay, So NICKI read this

(33:37):
is at the time she said heavily pulled from her
own life, so she from like the year before this movie.
That's where I get like, because I was just like, oh,
if I made a movie about my life when I
was thirteen, it would also be very over dramatic and
paint my family as villains. Um. So it's a complicated thing,

(33:59):
and she's I have some quotes from her in later
years of her kind of reflecting on this, which I
think are really interesting. The good thing is that it
seems like the three main people involved here, Evan Rachelwood,
Nicky Reid, and Katherine Hardwick all do stand by the
movie they've done reflecting on it, and it doesn't seem
like anyone anyone's you know, life was wrecked by this

(34:19):
movie having made. I still think it's an interesting discussion. So. Uh.
Nicky Reid grew up in l A. Her dad was
a production designer, her mom was a hair dresser. They
got divorced very young. She has an older brother. Um.
She did not apparently in retrospect, she said, like, well,
I didn't actually do as much as I said I
did at the time, but she did. She did. Um,

(34:43):
you know, I think have to grow up very quickly
and felt as a kid kind of neglected to varying
degrees by her parents. So in the movie, like, Tracy
is the insert for Nikki Reid, and EV is more
or of a construction of general debauchery. I guess, as

(35:06):
far as I know, ev is not based on any
particular person, but Tracy is very much the Nicky Read
character stand in, which is confusing because Nicki Reid plays
e V. But in real life, Nicki Reid was the
Tracy character, not the Evy character, which I guess was
very intentionally done right because it was like, you don't

(35:27):
want to just like react out your own trauma as
a kid. It's still complicated no matter what happens. So
where Katherine Hardwick fits in is she dated Nicky Reid's
father for a while. Kiss. Katherine Hardwick also started as
a production designer, so I'm assuming they knew each other
through work. Don't really know, um, but she dated Nicki

(35:49):
Reid's dad when Nicki Reid was like five years old.
I don't know when things broke off, but I know
that Katherine Hardwick was very close with the kids, Nicky
Red and her older brother, and that even after the breakup,
Katherine Hardwick wanted to stay involved in the kids lives.
There's a lot of gray area here. It's hard to

(36:10):
figure out the particulars, but basically, Katherine Hardwick said she
wanted to stay involved in the kids lives, so she
started seeing their mother to get her hair done. Question Mark, Like,
I I that is, I guess what happened. But so
she and Nikki remained close and per both of them

(36:34):
around the time Nikki was turning twelve and thirteen entering
middle school. She I mean in the way that a
lot of like kids going through puberty go like, she
you know, became moody. She was like going out when
she wasn't supposed to. She was playing her divorced parents
against each other and sort of you know, doing I

(36:54):
think kind of a diet version of what you see
in the movie thirteen. So Katherine Hardwick, I get like
the way that they tell the story is that Catherine
Hardwick was concerned about Nikki and wanted to give her
a productive, creative outlet to think about and talk about
what she was going through that wasn't acting out and

(37:16):
potentially hurting herself and other people. So she invites Nikki
over to her house and over the course of six
days they write out the plot to so they built
it together. Katherine Hardwick had not directed a movie at
this time, but then becomes really into the idea and

(37:38):
starts to say, like, Okay, I actually do want to
make this movie, Nikki. I want you to be in it,
and like we're gonna make the movie and that is
how it comes to be. Thoughts, Wow, I think it's
it's it's hard. I mean, ultimately, as long as Nikki

(37:59):
read it feels okay. Now that's the most important thing.
And it's like our opinion doesn't super matter. But I
but I do think Katherine hard Work was a little
bit wrong for that. Like I think it's one thing
to be like let's do a creative writing exercise, let's reflect,
and let's you know, like work together. But it's like
thrusting a kid into that. Like the negative consequence of

(38:22):
this movie for Nikki Reid was I mean, on the
bright side, she got a whole last career out of it.
She gave an incredible performance. She is credited as a
co writer, which I feel like not every adult would do,
and like she does get a well deserved career out
of this. But also she has said, and we'll link

(38:43):
this in the description, there's like a really interesting Refinery
twenty nine like retrospective on this movie where it's the
three of them talking and you know, Nikki Reid and
Evan rachel Wood are in their thirties now, but for
for years, like this movie most directly affected Nikki because
it was her telling her perspective of her parents divorce.

(39:04):
As we'll discuss, neither of the parents come off particularly well,
and she's you know, when the movie comes out, she's
like fourteen, fifteen years old and still living with her mom,
and her mom has to see Holly Hunter play her,
and like she had a really really tense relationship with
both of her parents after this movie was released, and

(39:24):
I guess that she didn't speak to her father for years.
They later repaired their relationship, but it's like, per I
don't have a direct quote from her on this, or
maybe I do, but her general thing was like she
ten years after this movie came out, when she was
in her twenties, expressed regret at being kind of harsh

(39:45):
on her parents. She oh, I have a direct quote
about this, you do? Okay? I would, because I it's
buried in my notes. I pulled it from scholarly journal Wikipedia,
but the quote is pulled originally from like People or
something like I think, like a Huffington Post maybe peace

(40:05):
point is here's the quote. Um Nicky read in says,
and this is paraphrasing, but that she regrets the way
she portrayed her family uh in the movie thirteen, saying quote,
I wrote this movie about them and their flaws and
imperfections and what it was like growing up. It was
from one kid's perspective and not a well rounded one.

(40:29):
You get older and it's like, how dare I portray
my father as being a totally vacant, careless schmuck unquote
So um, which I think is like, I mean again,
only she knows what her childhood was really like. But
this does seem to it's definitely the most loaded experience

(40:50):
for Nikki read specifically, which I do think kind of
opens uh portal of everyone's going to have a different
opinion on this, of like Katherine Hardwick is you know,
in her late forties when she makes this movie, you
would have to know that like that is going to
affect this kid you love's relationship with her family. And
it's like it's like, on one hand, you want to

(41:13):
respect her creative voice and you don't want to like
tell her that her perception of what's happening in her
life is wrong, Like certainly not. But on the other hand,
she's a kid. And because I am ultimately glad that
this movie exists, I feel like there's truly nothing else
I've ever seen like it, and so many I mean,
and this movie can skew a little preachy at times,

(41:35):
but like but in terms of like pulling from an
actual kid's experience and making her voice really really important
to the movie, like there's there's not a lot of
movies like that. And then on the other hand, it
negatively affected her life for a while. She had to
drop out of high school. Like there's a there's a
quote from Nikki read Um. She says, quote religious people

(41:57):
who don't even know me are calling my mom to
telling her she should burn in hell and that God
hates her. My mom can't defend herself to the world
she's such an amazing woman with such an open heart.
It's a real hard line and I crossed it. So again,
she's a kid when these decisions are made, and it's
I don't know, it's a real meyer. And well, on

(42:18):
top of that, you have a movie where you're casting
literal teenagers because Evan Rachel would and Nicky Reid we're
both fourteen years old during the filming of this movie,
and then I think Evan Rachel would turn fifteen during
the shoot, which was like a twenty four days shoot.
But they're like teens, right, They're very young, and so

(42:41):
them as actors are made to do things on set
that are inappropriate for like teenagers to be doing. Um
I felt, and I think like the filming of it
was probably handled as responsibly as you can handle something
like that. But like you're having to fourteen year olds

(43:01):
like straddling teen boys, like making out with them. They're broad,
like their shirts are off there like braws or exposed.
You're having teenagers like smoke cigarettes and yeah, they were
filled with catnip according to something I read, but that
was the way I was that was presented was like, well,
don't worry it with cat, it was I also don't

(43:22):
want my fourteen year old. Yeah, and then I read
that um like like the crushed pills that they were
snorting were actually quote harmless dietary supplements, and it's like,
I'm sorry, dietary supplements are not harmless. And then like
I read that, um, all the scenes where Tracy was
inflicting self harm, they were all shot in a single day,

(43:45):
and that everyone Rachel would her brother would have to like, yeah,
like go to her brother for emotional emotional support between
the takes of these scenes, because I think just filming
that was very traumatic, understandably. Yeah. So yeah, you're having
these actors like do these like very sexually explicit things

(44:06):
on camera, like simulating drug the use sets, I mean,
and that kind of brings it back to the thing
where it's like there's no other movie like this, but
that is for a reason, and like this, I don't
know if this is a story that you could possibly
tell ethically, which unless it's like animated, which would also

(44:29):
makes for some weird probably like tonal disconnect, right, which
which I feel like that is kind of tends to
be cw NET negative anyways, and right, right, and then
you don't get that actual perspective that is appreciated in
the movie of like, you know, someone's perception of their

(44:52):
own experience att is like this intense, and that's also
something that isn't often captured. It's like it's a real
it's a real Maria and like reading how what Evan
rachel Wood's experience was. And at this point she was
like a well seasoned child actor, like she'd been performing
for some time. I think her dad was also an actor,

(45:12):
and that's a whole Like I feel like we're having
the most recent round of child star discourse, which I
um respectfully tap out of um, but but I mean
I think that I mean in this in the case
of this movie, it's very relevant because and I can't
think of another situation like it where it's like it's

(45:33):
very common that teens, teenagers, especially teenage girls are exploited
in movies like this and and like you know, made
to do, like putting sexual situations in movies very early on.
There's always some sort of pressure, especially with an indie
movie like this, where it's like doing this whole movie
in twenty four days also doesn't seem like it's possible

(45:56):
to do completely ethnically spotlessly with not a lot of money, right,
like on a low budget where you can't hire probably
all the like people you need to hire to make sure.
I mean, I'm speculating here and to be fair. So
there's there's a scene which I think we should talk
about for other reasons, but there's a scene where the
two girls more or less assault this guy, Luke, this

(46:20):
older guy who seems to be friends with Mason. They
come onto him. He is very reluctant. He's like saying no,
he's pushing them off. Uh. We have Nicky Reid and
Evan Rachel would like kissing this guy, kind of like
getting on top of him. All this stuff. On set
were just a few crew members. There were social workers

(46:41):
and parents present, so there were at least people. They're
just kind of like making sure this was like again
as safely and ethically done as possible, and the pretty
consistent with this production. But it's like, I don't know
my opinion that is, like, Okay, I'm a fourteen year
old the actor acting out this scene, Like I appreciate

(47:03):
that my parents would be there to look out for
you and make sure you're not pressured to do anything
you don't want to do. But on the other hand,
I don't want my parents watching me do that ship
I'm fourteen years old, Like what the fuck right? It's
like it's there's no winning, and it's just the fact
that it's like, okay to fourteen year olds make out
with this older guy, this older actor to do that

(47:26):
at all, to do that on camera, like it just
felt icky. Of all the many vignettes in this movie
that is so cutible that I was like, why is this,
Like you achieved the same downward spiral without having to
fourteen year old actors do that. It kind of didn't.
It didn't add anything like, looking at just from a

(47:47):
story perspective, it's so get ridable and yeah, not in
any way. I don't know. Yeah, I didn't did not
like that scene. Um yeah, I'm trying to think if
there's any other Oh, I just want to say that
the last thing for Nikki Read and Evan rachel Wood,
I think a little heavier on Nikki Reads side, But um,

(48:07):
this also feels very two thousands and probably still now.
I'm probably um giving the present too much credit. But
Nikki Reid co wrote this movie had a huge hand
in shaping it and making it what it was. She
gave an amazing performance, and then her career very quickly
became her playing other heavily sexualized teenage characters for years

(48:30):
and years and years until she did Twilight and then
was able to like access more roles. But it was
that sort of thing where it was like she did
I mean, she did a pretty amazing thing here, and
then instead of being treated as like, Wow, this kid
can like really write and perform, they're like, oh, just
do that again, and we like that. We liked that, Yeah,

(48:54):
like do the part where you are exploited over and
over and like, which is very of the era and
like not at all surprising, but also like, I don't know,
this movie did a lot of good things for the
people involved, and I feel like it had like a
pretty negative I don't know, there's I was like it
was Catherine Hardwick was like a little bit wrong for

(49:17):
this and I but I also know that this movie
means a lot to a lot of people, and I
don't want to like discount that either. I know it's
very I mean it was like formative for me and
there is nothing like it, right, But there's all these
like weird asterisk situations that you don't you can't ignore,
and the ethics of this movie are all over the place.

(49:40):
It's just like it's it's a it's a bit of
a mind fuck. It's one of those things where I
think people will be like, well, the ends justify the
means because like, and I'm not saying that's what I believe.
I'm I don't think this movie should have been made
like this exactly. I think you can explore very intense

(50:02):
yet authentic experience that a lot of adolescents have without
like exploiting the young people involved in excative But um again,
like you said, Jimmy, this movie is because it is
thanks to the very close involvement from Nicki Reid, like

(50:23):
telling her own story. This does feel authentic. Not to
everyone's experience, of course, but plenty of impressionable teens who
are dealing with a whole array of difficult like societal pressures,
struggles at home, exposure to like addiction from people they know,

(50:45):
and that kind of being a path for their own addiction.
Like all this stuff gets explored that is worth exploring
and like worth representing on screen. But it's I just
feel like there's like if you isolated it, like scene
by scene, choice by choice. There's a lot that I
wish had been done differently, I do. I mean, it's

(51:08):
like we could talk about this all day of like
is there a way to ethically make a movie like
this on this budget? I don't know, Like, I don't know.
I'm not unhappy it exists. It seems like the main
people involved are very happy that they made it. But
also I think it's interesting that, like I didn't. I
also thought it was cool that Nicky Reid was like

(51:28):
so willing to publicly reflect on the effect that it has. Yeah,
that's true. Yeah, I mean think I think a lot
of actresses would feel pressured to be like, I don't know,
it was great and I'm grateful for it, but her
being like, you know, yeah, and I and I do

(51:49):
think that Catherine Hardwick was like made some irresponsible creative
decisions by putting young actors in sexual situations that are
not just you know, kind of unethical on its face
at all, but also don't even move the story forward.
So what then are you doing? Right? Like it feels
like secondhand exploitative, like when you're watching, especially as a

(52:10):
young girl, I don't know. It was very like, yeah,
why are we watching this specifically? Yeah? Yeah, because it's
if it does feel like when you show something like that,
especially when you got squishy pubescent brain, you're like, oh,
well they have to be showing that this for a reason.
And I think these girls are cool, so this is cool.

(52:31):
Like it's just like that baby lizard brain thing where
you're just like, oh, this must be like I remember
thinking like even though you know when you're twelve, you're
like they're doing bad stuff. You want to do it
like like school. You want to do it more exciting
than what we're doing right now. Yeah. Well, even from
like a young actor's perspective, like being asked to do

(52:54):
a scene like that, I mean you're just like absolutely, yeah,
I can I feel grow, Yeah, I can do this,
like and it's all plate pretend and you don't realize
until later that even if that was true in the moments. Yeah,
the power dynamics you like had no grasp on. You
didn't understand who was going to be watching, what they

(53:17):
were going to be getting out of it. Like all
of those things are very and that's on Catherine Hardwick
to take care of and like manage, and I just
I don't know. There's I'm glad everyone still stands by
the movie, but some Catherine Hardwick ship in here. I'm like,
you're you were very much an adult like it, and

(53:39):
and also this girl like you You've like helped raise
this young girl, Like why are you putting her in
this situation? And I mean whatever everyone's relationship is, but
like it's hard because I don't want to come off
as like super judge if they're all fine with it now,
but it's just like it's kind of a mind fuck. Um.
I would not want a production like this to happen again,

(54:02):
That's for sure. That's what I know. And also Nicky
Reid was saying in this Refinery twenty nine interview that
at the time, you know, when she was collaborating with
Katherine Hardwick on this script, that she was doing the
very thirteen year old thing that the characters in this
movie do, which is like overstate their level of experience.
So Nicki Reid was also saying she had done stuff

(54:25):
that she hadn't actually done at that point in her
life and then had to simulate something she had actually
never done and was lying about to her like to
a trusted adult. Katherine Hardwick. It's just confussing, right, because
when you when you're that age, you think you're mentally

(54:47):
and emotionally more prepared for things than you usually are,
and then if you do go through with an experience,
you might not even fully realize how traumatic that was
until that Alma manifests later and which ironically, I think
this movie illustrates pretty well with its character. There is

(55:08):
a lot of irony in this film, so it's wild
that it's also doing the thing that it's like illustrating
pretty well. So anyways, um, listeners were also interested in
your perspective on this. It's it kind of broke my brain, um,
because I am always pro people telling their own stories,

(55:30):
but also like when you have, you know, a kid
telling their story, you just have to be really really
careful and you have to think of I feel like
it's on you as a director and a creative collaborator
to think of the kid telling their story in the
moment and also think of their well being five ten
years down the line, because if you're thirteen years old,
you're not thinking past next week. It's like on you

(55:55):
as the adult collaborator to look out for a minor's
best interest, doy okay um any anything else we wanted
to talk about on on that end before we get
into the story. I guess the only oh, I guess
well before story. I don't know, you guys pick when

(56:16):
we talk about this, but I do want to talk
about the mom and the portrayal of her, because I
was so confused about it as a kid, and even
when I rewatched it, I was, I don't know, confused
the right. It kind of reflects Jamie where you're talking
about of like the some things I like, some things
are confused. It feels very like I don't know all right.
Yeah for me, so I remember having a discussion like

(56:41):
this on the like Mrs Doubtfire episode where when we
were kids watching that movie, we all thought the Sally
Field character was like such an overprotective, kind of overbearing,
mean shrew of a mother, and then watching it as
an adult, you're like, oh my god, no, I am
so on Sally Field's side, and like she was just

(57:04):
trying to be a responsible parent, and yeah, she might
seem like a kill joy, but she's just like trying
to like from a kid's perspective, but we as adults realize,
you know, she's just trying to keep her kids safe,
right right. Seeing this movie as an adult looking at
the Holly Hunter, the mom character Melanie, I was very

(57:30):
sympathetic towards her and and thought that is she someone
with faults and is one of those major faults being
that she kind of lets people walk all over her
and she's too accommodating for sure. Um, but like also
I relate because I can be that way sometimes. But like,

(57:50):
to me, as far as the portrayal her character and
like that mother daughter relationship, she felt to me like
just a very overly a common dating but extremely loving
and supportive and like doing her best. Did she maybe
sometimes ignore some red flags? Perhaps? Um, you could chalk

(58:11):
that up to like, you know, not wanting to interfere
too much, and like your kids like self exploration and
growth during this especially very kind of like pivotal confusing
scary time. Relationships like this, for the people who have
experienced them, can be just like so complicated and tricky.

(58:33):
And I think this movie does a really good job
of of representing what felt like a very authentic dynamic
between Tracy and Melanie, and at least from where I'm
coming from and and and feel free to. You know,
everyone's going to have a different perspective on this. But
like the Melanie character to me, like I was just like,

(58:54):
she's like just doing the best she can. She's a
working class person. She's raising two kids as a single parent.
The co parent Tracy's in Mason's dad seems to be
like largely absent. This is like unrelated. But I'm also
like Catherine Hardwick wise, I'm just trying to put myself
in her head. I want to understand. But like that's

(59:16):
that's like her ex partner that she's like ripping to
sha putting through a human shredder with his kid. I'm like,
that's just I mean, that's just a lot. Maybe, I mean,
maybe it's deserved, maybe it's undeserved. We don't know. Nikki
read later says it was not deserved. But anyways, sorry,

(59:38):
that was just thought I could have it. I was like,
I was like, wow, she's really going for it. She's
really saying my ex is trash so um, which is
you know true more often than not. That I just
I just like, once I knew the production stuff, I
was like, wow, pretty wild choices were made. But sorry,
continue I guess my point is to me, the relationship

(01:00:01):
felt authentic and complicated, and obviously like that relationship is
very tense and Melanie is dealing with a handful. But
also I could see another perspective where Melanie is being
negligent as a parent and not interfering enough and being ignorant,

(01:00:23):
possibly willfully, possibly not. And I can see if you're
watching this movie as a youth, you would be like, Oh,
the mom is such a drag. She's trying to control me,
She's invading my privacy, she's you know, doing this and that.
But I'm looking at it like, no, she's just trying
to make sure you don't get yourself killed. Tracy. I

(01:00:47):
don't know. That's my thought on it. Maggie, what was
your perspective on that when you were a kid versus now?
Because I because I definitely had like because I Caitlin,
I totally agree with you, and I also did not
see it that way when I was right. Yeah, I remember, um.
I mean, especially with that scene with the mom and

(01:01:10):
like Nikky on the bed where it starts to get like,
I don't, I don't know, it almost felt like, you know,
inappropriate a parent territory. UM. I think that really threw
us off, because, yeah, it looked throughout most of the film,
she's depicted as this like archetypal um overbearing in a

(01:01:33):
way which I think a lot of us saw in
our own moms, and not in a bad way, you know.
I think, like the way that she cares about her kids,
we very much you know, saw and identified with it,
and we were all like straightedge, so we weren't doing
any of this stuff. So it was kind of like, yeah,
our moms would be that mad if we had done
any of it. If a guy had wanted to make

(01:01:54):
out with us, I'm sure that right, this is how
what had gone down. But I that see did stick out,
and I like, I don't think any of us had
really had that much experience with like adults, you know,
treating us in that way or like seeing us in
that light or UM. I guess, you know, just speaking

(01:02:14):
for myself as very like naive, UM, and I guess
in a good way, like protected from that as a kid,
you know, I had very good relationships with most of
the adults I knew. UM, so that I think rubbed
all of us in a really weird way. I think
it was like maybe some of the first media that
we saw where you know, like a kid an adult

(01:02:37):
had a encroaching upon a inappropriate relationship that wasn't you know,
a clearly gross guy and you know a young girl
who was like rebuffing him or like, you know, there's
a lot of media that I think does a good

(01:02:57):
job of speaking to you know, like young women's experience
of like older people kind of being two into their business.
But I think this was the first time we saw
one like a woman being involved um and that it
was like a mom, you know, and we all knew
each other's moms. We were all like very close small towns.

(01:03:19):
I think it was in a weird way eye opening.
Maybe not eye opening, but I think more more so
than like the drugs and stuff, because that, you know,
we kind of just assumed was happening, and like we
new kids older than us we're taking drugs and so
I think that threw us less for a loop. But
I think that was like relationship dynamics. I think all

(01:03:43):
of us were like whoa, yeah, see, I have a
complicated thought on that because so so there's also kind
of a mother daughter relationship between e V and met
Anie or like mother figure. Yeah, when when I was
a kid, I thought that the relations I thought that,

(01:04:05):
like I viewed e V as trying to basically like
single white female Tracy. I was so on Tracy side
when I was a kid that I would get frustrated
with Melanie, even though, like I don't know watching that
character now, I feel like it's interesting that other mothers
saw that movie and went after Nicky Reid's mother, because

(01:04:25):
I thought Melanie is actually like written and especially portrayed
by Holly Hunter, really sympathetically um and like she has
a lot of layers. But when I was a kid,
I definitely was like Melanie, Melanie isn't like she's she's
all over the place with Tracy. She like and I
had like not a totally dissimilar relation, I mean, not

(01:04:46):
identical at all, but like when a parent wants to
be your friend but also needs to parent at the
same time, that's just like a difficult situation for both
parties because at the beginning, it is clear that like
Melanie wants to be a cool mom because she's a
chronic people pleaser. We see that in every area of

(01:05:07):
her life, and it doesn't and her daughter is a
big part of it, where you know, it's like when
that scene that really like hit for me with when
Ever and Rachel Wood comes home and she's like someone
made from of my socks. I'm not a kid anymore,
and her mom takes her out shopping and it's like, okay,
you're growing up, Like she's not doing the weird, like
I want you to be a little girl forever, and
she wants to be the cool mom that takes her

(01:05:29):
daughter to get closed that she likes. And but then
later on, you know, you see Melanie's always trying to
kind of have it both ways, and it's not possible
to have it both ways in a lot of situations.
And that comes up again with when she brings Evie
and Tracy to the store that they love to shoplift from,

(01:05:51):
and you know, mel is like, wait, I need to
call your guardian. But it is still like in a
cool way though, and then she like has She's like, well,
your guardian said that you can't be alone, but I'm
cool and I'll get you pants and like, but as
a kid, I saw I saw Melon sort of was
like why isn't she why can't she see what Tracy needs.

(01:06:12):
Why is she letting this guy stay around? And like,
I just didn't understand the adult next. I still think
that Brady shouldn't be around those kids, and especially if
she had whatever like that the promises that your parents
make you and your kid are sacred. And the fact
that she told her kids, Okay, he's not going to
be around anymore and then he was still around, that's

(01:06:33):
a huge deal and like that is a failure of
parenting on her part. I thought then and still now,
But now I can understand the Melanie like she It
sounds like she's been through the fucking Ringer and had
moments in her life where she really needed love and
support from some from other people, and she wants to
be that person when people she loves is in trouble.

(01:06:55):
But sometimes it's like you can't save everybody, and like
it's just this whole I don't know, Yeah, my my,
I've my opinion on her when I was twelve was
not super favorable. And now it's like I think that
she's like, Holly Hunter did an amazing job, and I
guess that she Holly Hunter like asked to be an

(01:07:18):
executive producer on the movie so she could help shape
the character in a more sympathetic way. Um, so she's
the best. Yeah, And to go back to I think
like the dynamic that you were talking about, Maggie, between
Melanie and Evie were you talking about. So there's like
a scene where like Evie kisses Melanie on the blips.

(01:07:44):
So there's a few scenes similar. That was the most extreme,
but there's examples throughout the movie of how I perceived
this was. Evie is an extremely manipulative person, right. She
perceives that Melanie is very accommodating and is very much

(01:08:04):
a people pleaser, and knows that she's going to be
very easy to manipulate and exploit. So she does different
things where she like, for example, that scene where she
kisses Melanie on the mouth, you can see how like
taken aback and weird it out Melanie is by that.
And there's another scene where Evie confides in Melanie that

(01:08:25):
she was abused by her guardian's boyfriend and and then
like you know, Melanie's like, oh my god. And then
there's like kind of a weird hug that they share
that like Tracy walks into and she's like, what the
hell is going on here? And it's also I mean,
I watching that back now, I've I used to feel
more like I think because it was just like whatever,

(01:08:46):
you're twelve and you have your own mommy problems. But
like I was, like, Evie is stealing Tracy's mom and like,
and Mel isn't doing enough to like draw boundaries with her,
and that has to be hurtful for Tracy because anytime
like your parents like is like I don't know, like
you get jealous in this weird way when you're a
kid and your parent is like paying attention to someone

(01:09:09):
who isn't you or your sibling. Right, My mom ran
a daycare, so I was constantly like, but this is
my mom and like, you know, like that that does
stick with you. But I thought, like what I what
I didn't internalize is that Mel would have seen a
lot of herself in Evie and wanted to help her,

(01:09:30):
and like they do connect in that scene where Evie,
you know, I mean, it's it is tricky where it's
like there's kind of this question looming over Evie's character
of like what is the truth and what isn't I
think it is heavily implied that she is not telling
the truth about everything, or she's overstating a lot of
stuff and is willing to throw other people under the

(01:09:53):
bus if she feels backed into a corner. But it
seems like she knows exactly what to say to appeal
to mel And you know, mel I was like, well,
I didn't have a mom around when I was growing
up either, So if you need a mother figure, I
guess sure you can stay here like where, Like I
think you can see it as Evie being legitimately desperate

(01:10:16):
for a supportive mother figure. You can also see a
lot of those interactions as Evie manipulating Melanie to get
what she wants and possibly lying about some stuff. It
could be both things, because Evy is clearly someone who
comes from the very rough background, and you know it,
is probably doing a lot of this stuff as like

(01:10:37):
a survival technique or some kind of coping mechanism. So like,
obviously her behavior didn't happen in a vacuum, we don't
really know that much about her background because we also
don't know what is the truth and what's not because
we see her lie effortlessly, effortlessly, effortlessly constantly, so you

(01:10:58):
you don't really know what she's telling the truth about
and what she isn't, but we can assume that she,
you know, had a pretty unstable upbringing and which informed
a lot of her behavior. So it's it's just so
complicated and the fact that like Melanie is like kind

(01:11:18):
of and it's not her fault that she's easily manipulated,
but you also kind of have to like examine yourself,
like you know, different things when you're a parent, in
in your kids safety is at stake here, So like
it's just so complicated, but this is all like such
real stuff that a lot of people deal with, So

(01:11:39):
like it's she can be frustrating, but I think, like
watching it now, it's like she does come by all
of her problems honestly, and in the in the writing
of the movie, it's like that's not something that comes
out of left field, that she would be very easily
manipulated by someone who is like, I don't have anyone
else in the world. Will you help me? Because that's

(01:12:01):
how her relationship with her boyfriend works, And that's how
her relationship with her friend works. Like people know if
they show up at Mel's house and they're like, I
need a place to crash, I need a hot meal
I need something like if she can give it to them,
she will, which is like a really hard quality to
dislike about someone, But I do. I think that it's

(01:12:22):
kind of a rare example of seeing you know that
that kind of behavior, no matter how honestly you come
by it and how well intentioned it is, can hurt
other people, and it can result in like neglecting other stuff.
And I think, I mean, I do remember, like when
I first saw the movie, being like, how does she
have no idea what's going on? Her daughter is coming

(01:12:43):
home all the time visibly fucked up and is rarely
called out on it, and that is something that I
still sort of felt on that. I feel like that,
like I don't even know if that's a criticism, it's
just like something that is always stuck with me because
I know that that hopen and I know that, like,
you know, whatever, none of us are parents, and you know,

(01:13:05):
her kid is clearly in trouble and it seems like
she doesn't know what to do, so she's ignoring the problem,
which definitely happens, but it's frustrating to watch. Or it's
just like your kid needs you, mel I know. And
then I think her being a recovering addict informs a
lot of just sort of you know, like how how

(01:13:27):
she is, how she parents, even like the non addressing things.
It's probably an overcorrection of well, if I am really
strict with her, she'll just go towards it more, you know,
like as right, like a self, that's how I did it. So,
you know, I do like that. It's complicated though, because
I feel like a lot of these movies, especially ones

(01:13:49):
that are written from like a teenage perspective. You know,
she has said in retrospect that you know, things are
exaggerated and stuff, which like, even as a thirteen year old,
I was like, yeah, this is a little know, like
melo dramatic if we're you know, gonna label at something.
But I do like that it's complicating because I think
that is so much rarer and feels more real than

(01:14:09):
a lot of the other like go ask Alice like
that is so you know, like tunnel vision uncomplicated, don't
do drugs, um Whereas yeah, this you know, adds a
lot of human layers to the story of you know,
teenage girl rebelling for sure. Part of that too, something

(01:14:31):
that I thought was handled in like an interesting and
nuanced way was the way that media influences the teens,
where there's like often a lot of shots of like billboards, advertisements,
ones that are like are using sex to sell and
like using Western beauty standard images to you know, influence

(01:14:54):
people to buy things and like convince people they need
to look a certain way. And and you see, like
show to this and you see it's not necessarily uh,
it's it's more like, I guess implied that these things
are affecting the girls, but it's not a hard like
I like that, it's not super I mean, and there
are some points where it's literally like zoo men on

(01:15:17):
Calvin Klein billboard, Like I felt I felt like they
kind of bop you over the head with it a
little bit without them talking about it, which which did
feel authentic to me, because it's like you don't necessarily
realize that that's what's happening, but they're surrounded by it,
especially like these these l a kids, Oh baby, like
you're super surrounded by it. And then like it's implied

(01:15:40):
that Tracy kind of stops eating or is barely eating.
It seems like e V doesn't eat that much. She
mentions like, you know, if you drink ten cups of
ice water a day, you'll burn three D calories. Like,
it's clear that these girls are very concerned about the
way they look, how skinny they are, and you know,

(01:16:00):
there is a known correlation between media images and disordered eating,
especially in young people, young girls especially. I mean, like,
I feel like early two thousands it was at its
fucking peak. It's even seeing the low rise jeans culture
of this movie is so triggering You're like, so, yeah,

(01:16:21):
I guess my My point is, like, I think this movie,
not super overtly or like at least not in dialogue,
but more in just like images, explores how influential media is,
especially to teens who are so susceptible and you know,
easily influenced by the images they consume. And um, there's

(01:16:43):
also a scene where Tracy is like about to go
out with that guy Hobby, and e V is like,
you don't even know how to kiss, do you? And
Tracy is like, yeah, I do. Noel and I practice
with cruel intentions fifty times, which I think the implication
is there that they kissed each other the way that
Selma Blair and um, Sarah Michelle Gellar do in cruel intentions.

(01:17:06):
So it's like, yeah, media influencing, like a movie influencing
these girls, and like, I mean, I I do love it.
I like, I think it's so like and and the
way that I mean, I guess kind of transferring to
There was a scene that I mean, when I was
watching it and I was a kid, I was like, Oh,

(01:17:26):
they kiss wow, because and I thought that that scene,
I mean, ethics wise, we could get into it with
what that means for the actors. As far as the
characters go, I thought it was pretty well done. And
it felt very like whenever when when you're thirteen, your

(01:17:47):
sexuality is very elusive. Um, I know that I was
definitely kiss kiss kissing my friends when I was thirteen.
And the fact that they're framing it as practice and
maybe it is and maybe it isn't. Like it just
felt like a very authentic experience having two young actors
to do that in a movie that opens up another door.

(01:18:09):
I will say that Evan rachel Wood, who came out
as bisexual in sometime in the early UM later was
like I had the biggest crush on Nicky Reid and
it was so embarrassing that my mom had to watch
me kiss my crush, and I couldn't tell anyone that, Like,
I mean in the early two thousands, I mean, the

(01:18:29):
discussion around bisexuality in the early two thousand's fucking forget it.
But I thought of that. I mean, we've seen so
much queer baby scenes that like don't work and that
I don't know, that's not how I interpreted that scene.
That felt very like authentic to experiences that um I

(01:18:52):
either had had or wanted to have at the time
of watching this movie. I don't remember of all the
things that happened in the movie, that was scene that
felt like retrospectively important for me to see and that
you know, I'm and I'm glad it was like treated
in that way. Um yeah, there was still some like
you know, like teenage of that era, like I don't know,

(01:19:15):
just sort of attitude toward it, because like Tracy says
something like, oh, you want me to prove it to you?
You like lesbo, right, I mean, but also like that's
defensive kids ship like exactly. Yeah, just another thing that like,
you know, problematic kids saying problematic things because kids are
you know, can be problematic. Kids are problematic, You're still problematic.

(01:19:38):
I was, I would argue like that like a kids
saying that in defensively in two thousand three, I probably
would have done that if I was, because there was
no discussion around bisexuality at that time. So you're like,
I don't know, like when am I? What's wrong with me?
Like I felt weird about myself all the time? You know,

(01:19:59):
it felt it's very authentic. Yeah, for sure. Um, speaking
of kissing, here's a I'd love to start every sentence
that way. Always something that I took big issue with.
But I'm also interested to hear different people's perspectives on
this listener's perspectives. But it felt to me so obviously

(01:20:21):
this movie centers whiteness in a pretty big way, as
as many coming of age stories do, and it felt
to me so you there are a number of characters
of color, teens of color, and we learn a few
of their names. One is Hobby, one is KK. There's
another guy named Reuben. I don't know who Reuben is,
but his name gets mentioned. It seems like he's like
kind of dating Evie. Anyway, it felt to me as though,

(01:20:47):
because so much of this movie is like look at
the risky dangerous, wild things these girls are getting into
that black teens are being used by the movie to
imply that, like kissing a black kid is yet another
dangerous thing that they're doing, and it wouldn't be as

(01:21:09):
wild if they were kissing white boys, but because they're
kissing black boys. Yeah, it felt like very coded. And
that was one of the things where it was like,
not oddly shallowy something since movie our shallow. That felt
like a very shallowy, like surface level decision that had
no you know, like especially because we don't learn anything

(01:21:31):
else about those characters except that, like one of them
likes to beat box, Like we don't know anything about them.
I think I think it's bad writing. And if it
wasn't intended that way, then you need to give characters context. Exactly,
a black teenager's experience exists in a void, whereas like
Tracy's life is extremely complicated, which it is, but it's

(01:21:54):
like we need to extend that to everybody. Katherine Hardwick, right, Yes,
like they could have added you know, there's no reason
not to, Like why don't we know those kids, Why
didn't why didn't we get introduced to them at the
beginning of the movie you know, like why aren't they characters? Right, Yeah,
they're just not given characters at all. And there's a

(01:22:15):
lot of I felt like, I mean, and this is
kind of like a renteres thrown and by the fact
that this is like Nicky Reid talking about her own experience,
but even the idea of like casting a like blonde,
pale white girl as like being corrupted by a young
girl with just darker features than her. It's just like
it's so like in terms of the parts of this

(01:22:37):
movie that doesn't work. It's all very over the top,
not challenging anything in terms of like who this movie
considers as worthy of context and empathy and too isn't
And then like the only thing this movie does to
attempt to comment on race at all is Tracy says

(01:23:01):
something like if everyone married someone from a different race,
then in one generation there would be no prejudice, which
is such a naive way to the most white girls.
Should I ever, that's like it um, it made me cringe.
It made me uncomfortable, And then we cut to the
next scene, right right, yeah, I I also felt like

(01:23:23):
it's not I mean, and we've touched on this on
the show before, where it like it's not enough to
cast inclusively, like you need to like there needs to
be care and thought given to characters of all races.
Like it. It sounds so goofy simple, but it doesn't
do it. It feels like white people not knowing how

(01:23:45):
to write black characters. It felt like a boomer white
lady made the movie exactly exactly because this movie does
subvert a fair amount of things. But yeah, in terms
of like challenging what characters are are given and which
are not, that we barely learned character's names. I think
we learned the names of the boys that they hook

(01:24:06):
up with, but they don't exist outside of that context.
So versions I did like, I liked Um, he wasn't
in the movie a lot. But I did like the
brother character. I thought that that was pretty well done.
Of like, he's a pubescent boy and therefore sucks, but
also like does care a lot about his sister and

(01:24:29):
is visibly frustrated with his mom and his sister for
reasons that make a lot of sense. But also he's
a kid and there's not really a lot he can do,
And I thought that character was well written. What do
we think of Brady opening the flow? Brady. I was like,

(01:24:49):
it was seemed to see is he the role model
of the century. No, but he's also someone struggling with addiction.
He mentions like wanting to relapse because in like kind
of being triggered by the environment in this household is
sort of like kind of dangerous for him and to tempting,
so he leaves. But then you also see him like

(01:25:12):
be someone who does seem to care about these kids
and who wants to be as present as possible. You know,
it's just like a person going through a lot, trying
their best. Again, Um, I think that I think that
addiction is given more empathy in this movie than we
usually see in media. But I don't know. I just

(01:25:33):
I didn't honestly pay him that much thought. So I
was watching, I don't know. I was trying to figure
it because I guess my main thing and again I'm
bringing my youth baggage to this as well, was like,
did did he know that Melanie had promised to her
kids that he wouldn't be around? Because if so, I

(01:25:53):
feel like he shouldn't be around and it's disrespectful to
the family to be around. If he was aware that
the chill did not want him there and that it
had been said he wouldn't be there. That was something
that like pained for me when I was twelve for
personal reasons also, Um, but I do agree that it's
like he does care about the family and like he does.

(01:26:18):
I I thought, like that moment where mel is just
at the end of her rope and she's tearing up
the shitty floor and like she's just like had it.
He shows up for her in that moment and like
everyone's doing the best they can. And yeah, I agree,
I I yeah, I remember really not liking that character
when I was a kid and I was like, why

(01:26:39):
is he here? He shouldn't be here. But then as
an adult, so I'm like, there's more, there's more nuance
that exists in the world than I realized when I
was twelve. Go figure, Yeah, we had someone, um you
know close to her family and I'd be over that
all the time and they would have you know, a
Brady who change, you know who change, and you know,

(01:27:00):
a Brady for every season. Um. Yeah, So it was
something that was like recognizable. Um yeah, and especially like
in the moments where he is there for her, you know,
and you can you know when you're around that you'll
see that peek through every once in a while, like
like a genuine, like caring moment or just like something

(01:27:22):
that you know makes it seem like it is making
the mom's life or you know, something for them. Yeah,
I agree. Yeah, I think that Like when I was
a kid, I viewed him as being very selfish, but
then like watching it as an adult, I was watching
it from Tracy's perspective as a kid, and I was like,
she isn't like he must yeah, which like he did,

(01:27:46):
like did enough for them to be like, he's not
coming back, right, But I thought it was interesting. Yeah.
I thought that this movie, of the things that we
are critical of and right so um, addiction was something
that was handled I think with a fair amount of nuance.
Um my last big thing, and we mentioned this already,

(01:28:07):
but I just want to hit on it again because
I really don't like this. When it appears in movies
is when it's inevitable that young people are going to
find a movie don't show them how to self harm
on screen. That is so fucked up. It's one of
my least favorite coming of age movie choices. Um, any

(01:28:28):
sort of self harm if there is a chance that
a kid is going to see it, imply you don't
need to show and an adult audience will know what
you're fucking talking about. I really hate that they showed that.
I don't like that Evan Rachel would even had to
act it out. You know, you can even show like

(01:28:48):
whatever scars in my My opinion is like you can
show that people will get it. It will be very upsetting,
and it won't show kids how to self harm. Yeah,
so some irresponsible choices were made in conclusion, yes, but
it's also a movie that you know, feels very authentic

(01:29:10):
and many other regards. So this, I mean, this is
talk about a mixed bag of a movie. Talk about
the next bag um. Yeah, I'm very curious of what
our listeners experience with this movie is. I feel like
there's a wide spectrum of people's opinions and experiences with it.

(01:29:32):
I know that there's a lot of young people that
really glommed onto it as a kid and felt seen
because there's not a lot of movies about young girls
growing up in unstable households that show a lot of
sides to a lot of people, Like I understand why
a lot of people felt seen by this movie, and
then there's also whatever we've had. We've been talking about

(01:29:55):
it for two hours. There's a lot of ship going on.
I'm also curious, listeners if you have an answer for
this of like more modern or maybe you know, less
ethically ambiguous but within the same style, or like you know,
more modern depictions of this and that makes sense, or

(01:30:16):
like what did what did thirteen open the doors for?
You know? I feel like Euphoria is like gen Z's
kind of version of this, which also makes some questionable choices. Well,
I would saying, and I think they're worse off for it,
because I don't like that Euphoria is famously written by
an adult man and like you don't have a nikky

(01:30:40):
read in the mix with Euphoria, which is I think
like for the ethical fucking black hole it opens up.
I think what makes thirteen really unique is that a
kid's voice was heavily prioritized, and I think that that
is like part of what makes it special versus versus
a euphoria where it's an adult guesting their way around

(01:31:00):
youth experience. Right at the same criticism about eighth grade,
but no one wanted to hear that. People they were
already We're already into the people are never ready. I
really love that movie, but it's like yeah, anyways, yeah right. Um,
does anyone have any other thoughts about the movie? Thirteen? No, No,

(01:31:24):
I think we covered it. It definitely passes. The fact
has no doubt about it. Most of the movie I
mean not that I mean talking about kissing boys and
talking about difficult relationships with father, brother and Brady comes up,
but like a large portion of the movie is women
talking to each other and coming of age and all

(01:31:46):
that stuff. Also like an example of mommy issues, which
I think is becoming more popular. I mean Tangled, you know, great,
great mommy, big week for mommy issues on the factal
cast honestly, but yeah, I I agree. I think that
the more glaring issue is it's all uh white women

(01:32:07):
talking to each other for the movie. Yeah yeah, yes, Um.
So that brings us to our nipple scales zero to
five nipples based on examining the movie through an intersectional
feminist lens um tricky one. Well. Also, this movie is

(01:32:28):
like kind of a biopic basically, which like are always
tricky to rate on the nipple skille because it's like,
this is about a real person's experience, but also it
is fictionalized because Ev is not a real person. That
all that was the laws I wanted to say. I
thought that the character that was developed the least well
was Ev, which makes sense because that's literally the only

(01:32:51):
character that's not based on a person in Nikki Reid's life. Yeah,
or writing criticism, right, I read something that, like, so
Nikki read when she was like twelve or thirteen, her
friend got arrested for selling acid, and like that's kind
of who e. V Is based on, but like not fully,
it's just sort of like that experience of like a

(01:33:12):
teen kid getting arrested for selling acid. Let's sort of
map a character onto that experience. And that's like, how
more more like general than because it's like Tracy is
so specific and it's so like demonstrably Nikki Reid where
it's like Ev. I mean, part of the movie is
like you're supposed to be guessing around what is true

(01:33:34):
about her life and what isn't um, which I feel
like honestly I would have I would rather have done
away with that and let us, like, I think it's
more impactful if we do know what her life experiences
versus because I feel like that takes her into like
this villain territory, or that's how I interpreted it at
the time. Unreliable narrator, Yes, right, when it's like that

(01:33:56):
character deserves empathy, but we but in order to really
ampathize with her, we would need to know who she has,
more things about her, right. So, oh gosh, it's so,
as we have discussed, there are you know, kind of
like behind the scenes things that you can call into

(01:34:17):
question as far as the ethics of, you know, making
teen actors do sexually explicit things on camera. It was
handled probably as responsibly as possible if you're going to
make the choice to do that, but you could say,
maybe don't make that choice at all, because it's unethical

(01:34:37):
to make the choice at all. Um. So there's that.
There's the way again blackness is treated and used to
suggest to suggest danger. Yeah, danger, which is such a
fucking harmful thing to do because of like white America's
perception of blackness is and black youth especially is often

(01:35:01):
correlated with danger, and it's so harmful and so sinister,
and that the movie makes suggestions at that is really
fucked up. Um. But then like on the other hand,
this is like a story about a teenager's experience told
from the perspective, literally co writing the script of a teenager.

(01:35:23):
Some things were clearly exaggerated for like cinematic effect. I
don't know, it's it's tricky, it's a it's a mixed bag.
As we've said, I would give this movie. I don't know.
The things that it handles irresponsibly, like really are upsetting
enough to maybe even knock it down to like I'm
thinking somewhere between like a two and a three, and

(01:35:44):
maybe it's just like a two point five kind of thing.
I don't know, not the nipple scale, what does it
even mean. It's also a flawed metric. It's perfect. I
think I'm gonna I'm gonna go three, But I might
be leaning a little bit on nostalgia there. Um. And
also I think that my opinion would be heavily swayed

(01:36:07):
by how the actors feel about it now. And sure
that's my justification for going with three. I also just
have like a bizarre attachment to this movie. Um, it
feels like a very micro generational movie. Um. But because
Nikki Reid, I mean, I really feel terribly that it

(01:36:30):
had a negative effect on Nicki Reid's life, she was
a kid. How would you possibly fucking know what would happen?
And but listening to that interview that they did, reflecting
on this time and knowing that everyone feels okay about
it and that they don't regret having made it, I
feel a little more lenient on that point. However, do

(01:36:51):
I think movies should be made this way? No? No,
this is like strictly viewing it in retrospect, like would
not advocate for this style of filmmaking. I think it's
potentially could have really really been horrible, and it's very
lucky that it wasn't. And I'm glad all the precautions

(01:37:11):
that were taken we were taken, but also even that
wouldn't have guaranteed, Like even though every precaution was taken,
they still had a negative effect on the child's life
who was telling her story, Maggie, how about you? Yeah?
I think I think I'm also going to go with
the three for similar reasons, and that it feels almost

(01:37:35):
like a relic of this very specific time, and it
feels like it captured some things, especially like the things
are insinuated, like the diet culture, the this the that
um I think the other reason I'm going to get
into three is purely the aesthetic of it, because I
feel like that like defined the aesthetic for a long

(01:37:59):
time of both like low budget films, uh and things
that wanted to be critical. Darling's kind of took on
this leg crungy blue color for so long, um that
I think it's at least visual lasting impact. I think

(01:38:21):
we've made me don't give enough credit to it. I
think part of that is the backwards like, oh, you know,
especially men watching it. I didn't know that like a
movie about like girls and women could be this like
you know, like real, yeah, this grit you know of

(01:38:42):
which is being all its own. But I think because
of that, the style it aesthetic influenced a lot of
directors that were working around the same time or you know,
we're up and coming and kind of became shorthand for
like no, no, no, take my movie series slee um yea,
which I think that alone, watching it was like damn

(01:39:05):
like that. Just the look of this did a lot.
And of course then we had all of the Twilight
series which pay homage to this blue grade. This became
the Hardwick House style. But Catherine Hardwick only directed the
first one I know, and that is I mean, for
all the rightful criticism around Katherine Hardwick in regards to

(01:39:25):
this movie, she still should have been allowed to direct
the other point, like, oh my god, absolutely yeah. But yeah,
So you know, if you haven't seen this movie, maybe
watch it for the static. I think like it kind
of communicates a lot where the story may stumble here
or there, or the characters are sometimes you know, viewing
it as a moment in time, I think is the

(01:39:47):
easiest way to interact with this movie now, very time capsuling. Yeah,
I don't think that the movies like this, But also
do I think that this is like more off authentic
than a euphoria in some ways. Yes, I do like
that it like focuses a mother daughter relationship and in

(01:40:09):
a complicated one at that that's very relatable for a
lot of people. And I think it is important to
see things like this, issues like this, things that teenage
girls deal with to be given the like cinematic respect
of like, yeah, it is a big deal to deal
with these things. Um, yeah, for sure. Yeah. As far

(01:40:32):
as Caitlin's rombo meter goes, sorry to give it a
zero out of t Yeah, I don't know twists, they're
uh the last thing because I just didn't know this,
and I guess I wouldn't have guessed it for a
movie this indie. Um, Holly Hunter was nominated for an
Oscar for this movie. It kind of a fair amount

(01:40:53):
of awards attention. It got some Golden Globe attention. I
think some like Baptist stuff. Yeah, but yeah, I UM,
I thought, I thought Holly Hunter did an incredible job
in this movie. I really, this is incredible herself, Like
forget it, oh, I mean it's a Holly Hunter. Really.
I feel like we've covered a fair amount. I feel

(01:41:15):
like we we always mentioned that we love her, but
like she's just special, She's got range, she does she
really does well. Well there's our chat on and on
that note, I will say, I'll tag on that. If
anyone watched this and like kind of liked it, maybe
check out the films by Greg Iraqi, who does he

(01:41:38):
worked more on the eighties, but he does extremely I
thought provoking. Queer cinema usually depicting young, um, younger not
this young, but like younger teens. UM that feels very
much like their perspective is like respected and um feels important.
He's just also just a great director or so cool. Yeah,

(01:42:01):
I don't know. Check out some of the stuff. Hell yeah,
um cool. Well, Maggie, thank you for bringing us this real,
really complicated text bratcher. Yeah rich text. Yeah. Where can
we find you on the world Wide Web? Oh? Man?
Unfortunately I am still on the internet one day no longer,

(01:42:27):
but yeah, you can find me on Twitter. Just my
name Maggie Mayfish m a e like my dad, great grandmother,
not like the month the real ones now uh. And
also on YouTube. I have another video coming out. I
don't know when this is being released, but we have
a video on Jim Carrey's depiction of Dr Eggman from

(01:42:51):
the Sonic series and was he doing an Elon Musk question? Yes,
that's that's our rich text for the next month. Is
Sonic amazing? Yes? Everyone, please check out Maggie's stuff. And
then you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at

(01:43:14):
Bechtel Cast. Throw us a little rate and review and
give us follow and if you're feelings, you're at it bulls.
And we've got a Matreon at patreon dot com, slash
backtel Cast where you get to bonus episodes every month
plus access to the entire back catalog. This month, we're

(01:43:39):
you know, knocking out a couple popular requests. And it's September,
so we're doing back to schools. We're doing Never Been
Kissed and Pitch Perfect. It's perfect, had I'm finally my
big boss, my big boss of Bectel cast. I've been now,
I've seen it. I just don't like it, and I
know everyone loves it and so it's gonna be pissed

(01:44:01):
at me. Maybe I'll love it. I haven't seen it
since it came out. Maybe maybe I just have a
thing against acapella groups, so like it was never gonna be.
That's the thing I really as a former acapella radio producer,
um sorry to out myself. I produced an acapella radio
show for no less than two and a half years

(01:44:21):
and did it traumatize me? Obviously because they're no wonder.
Yeah yeah, I was never the same. My good my goodness. Well,
I guess tune into our Matreon to hear Jamie unpack
all of her acapella related trauma. Yeah yeah yeah. Could
I at one point named twenty Boston area acapella groups

(01:44:43):
and rank them by preference? Maybe? WHOA But we don't
want to. Literally, the show has been on for six
years and I have not been able to go there.
Oh my goodness, I had no idea. Well, if you
need some merch, you can go to uh T public
dot com, slash the Bechtel Cast and grab yourself some teas,

(01:45:07):
some stickers, some pillows and the other items. Follow your heart.
We got pillows, I love. I love my Becktel Cast. Pillows.
Not gonna lie. I might get some more um. And
with that, let's repair our relationships with our moms. Let's

(01:45:28):
do it. Let's do it. Bye bye bye

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