Wet Hot American Summer with Allison Raskin

On the last day of camp at The Bechdel Camp, counselors Jamie and Caitlin and special guest Allison Raskin gather 'round the campfire to talk about Wet Hot American Summer.

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Beck dol Cast, the questions asked if movies
have women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends
and husbands, or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef
and best start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hello,
and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin
Darante Jamie, and we host a podcast about the representation

(00:23):
of women in film. It's the one you're listening to, right,
is it at this very second? And Jesus Christ go on, well, no,
like I feel like we should go home there. Okay,
so this is our podcast about the portrayal of women
in movies. We use the Beck Delf test as a

(00:43):
jumping off point to start a larger discussion about the
portrayal of women in movies. Jamie, let's pass the Bechdel
test by explaining what the Bechtel test is. Okay, so
you went some crazy paradox. What you can't describe what
the Bechtel test is without breaking the right because you
have to say, man, I also just said Bechtel test wrong.

(01:05):
I didn't even notice there. Let's let's try this, Hey, Jamie, Hi,
can you explain to me what the Bechtel test is
please not without breaking it. It's like fight club in
that way, or maybe it isn't that. I don't know.
The first rule of the Bechtel test is that you

(01:26):
cannot talk about the test, the Bechtel test. And that's
why this is the last episode of our podcast because
we realized we've been breaking the first rule of the
Bechdel test. We just never talk about it. I thought
this was fun. Well, I think that passed the Bechdel test.

(01:46):
It did. Wow. Okay, so we're good. So now we
can actually explain what it is, which is, thank god,
we can talk about men again. Thank God is getting
very stressed out. So if you if you don't know already,
the Bechtel test is a test applied to fiction. Old
media requires that a movie, let's say, has two female
identifying characters in it. They have to have names, they

(02:07):
have to speak to each other, and their conversation has
to be about anything besides a man. We just did that, Yes,
we did. We just did that. But then because I
just said, man, that's what fun. Where you break it? Yeah,
it's tricky. It's a paradox, it really is. Anyhow, So
we're here with a guest to talk about wild summer flick.

(02:29):
She is the creator and star of Gossip, which is
a scripted comedic soap opera podcast fun Alison Ruskin, Hi, Hi,
thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having
me anytime. So we're talking about what hot American summer
love it? Yeah, that's true. I had never seen this

(02:50):
movie really before. I've never seen I've rarely seen any movies. Yeah,
I've never seen it before. I'd heard a lot about it. Honestly,
based on a poster and knowing who's in the cast
and knowing the year it came out, I assumed it
was going to do way less well than I think
it actually does. Like it seems like you hear like

(03:11):
was this came out about two Yeah? You hear? Okay,
a two thousand one summer comedy. I don't think this
is going to be a progressive piece of work in
any way. Like I don't think anything that came out
that year is like whoa, this is well? Like, um,
are you forgetting about Shrek? I was about to say Shrek, Caitlin,

(03:32):
do we know what month this came out? Because Shrek
came out in July and was there of course, the
last bit of innocence we had as a country with Shrek.
Of course, with Shrek in this year. But anyways, you know,
Shrek is obviously a feminist text. But most movies I
would say that came out in the in the early

(03:53):
Bush administration through literally today are are not progressive text.
Raunchy summer comedy is generally not good to women. That's
what I meant for sure. Yes, by the way, this
movie came out in July. Oh wow, this was up
against Trek at the box this movie was Yeah, nobody
saw this movie's story wise, Shrek one, money wise, Shrek

(04:17):
continues to win. Yeah, this movie what had American summer.
It was a critical and box office failure, huge flop,
but it has since developed a cult following and has
gotten its own TV show, a couple of different variations
of it because they've done the First Day of Camp
Netflix series and then the ten year Reunion. Right, I

(04:37):
think I only saw the first Day of Camp one.
I think same. Yeah, So what's your history with the movie.
My history with this movie is like, I know that
I love it, but I don't ever remember anything about it.
You know what, you know those movies where you're like
that's a good time, but like the specifics of it
allude you, Like you know that at one point they
go into town and get so high like past that

(04:59):
I'm like, it's a bunch of funny people. Well, it's
probably because there's no cohesive story that really unfolds, so
it's hard to remember what it's about. It's just a
bunch of little, like micro stories, which is like, yeah,
that's just like the weird thing about any like ensemble
cast is you're like, okay, so a bunch of small
things will happen and eventually the movie will end, right, Yeah,

(05:21):
that's what will happen. I feel like a good ensemble
movie though you do have the right like the normal arc.
But it's because it's David Wayne, right, So it's he's
he's not looking to do the normal thing now. He's
such an avant garde different artist. So yeah, I saw
this movie for the first time in college, I want
to say, probably around like two thousand five, and I

(05:41):
really enjoyed it. I thought it was really funny and
really silly. You know, it's just a silly, vaguely satirical.
I don't even know quite how to classify this movie.
In terms of it's like approach to what it's about,
and I feel like it's like making a big nostalgia appeal,
like that's most of it is, like the era. But
I also felt pressured to like it did. Like I

(06:02):
feel like it's like weird if someone says they don't
like this movie. Sure, yeah, Like it's like you're especially
it feel like the comedy community. I think where some
of his other movies, I feel like I can be
like that made no sense at all, But like, what
are other movies he'd made? Oh? Man, he made this
one with m Paul Rudd and Jennifer Anderson. That was
like one of the worst things I've ever seen where

(06:24):
he went they went to that cult and Justin Thureau
was in it. Oh I don't I don't know. Was
that called wander Loss? Yes? Yes, oh yes. He I
think directed a movie called The Ten, which I think
I'm maybe the only person who saw that and the

(06:44):
only person who liked it. What was it about? It's
based on the Ten Commandments and it's like all these
little videos he did. Why did't you see The Ten?
I don't know, but I it really resonated with me
in a way that I can't explain. And um, people
who had seen it, who saw me like online saying
that I enjoyed it, they're like, Caitlin, what the freak

(07:07):
is wrong with you? As far as to publicly state
that you like you didn't keep that to yourself. I
stand out for the t look please tweet at me.
It's really your thoughts on the it's not you're the
only one who saw it. But it's like similarly like
silly and goofy, like Wet Hot American Summer, but it's
certainly not a good movie. Well anyways, so so yeah,

(07:30):
I enjoyed Wet Hot American Summer, the film the artistic
masterpiece that it is, of course, and uh yeah, I
thought it was really silly and funny, and I liked
that it's pretty much just like a goofy movie that
is not taking it. I'm sorry, seriously, it's a goofy movie.
It's that's a different thing. But is it an is
it an Extremely? Is that the sequel? Because that's another yeah,

(07:55):
which is one of my favorite. I think that all
Sea Celery and extremely and then Extremely went Hot Americans
and Extreme Oh, I have extreme doubts, right, I think
we've talked about this before because I can't stop saying
an extremely doubtful movie. Sorry good So yeah, so this movie.

(08:16):
You know, it's silly, and I enjoy it. I argue
it has more heart than other movies that go this crazy.
Like I think that like with Coop, like we're like
tracking him and his love for Katie. There is like
an emotional there's a center to this. Some of the
characters do care, and that's unusual for this type of

(08:37):
broad comedy. That's true mostly. I mean, I love Niles
his uh David David H God, God, I love him
so much. He was one of my major childhood crushes.
WAS loved Niles so much. I'd stamp every night to
watch Frasier and I had a crush on Frasier, but

(08:57):
I knew he was so unattainable and so in your
fantasy world, you had to settle for Niles. Yes, I
was just like Daphne. I had to settle for Niles.
There was I was like Fraser. I would be so
scared to talk to him. Niles would approach me, we
would get along great. We would have a marriage of
convenience for years. I just oh God, I love Niles

(09:21):
and he and David hid Peers is so great. No
one sees much of his work outside of Niles, so
I've seen him on Broadway. And the thing about The
Detective no Um, it was like a movie. I don't
know that wasn't a movie. Was definitely not a movie.
It was I can't remember what it was, but he

(09:44):
was very good in it. Yeah, he's the absolute best
at the end. Well, speaking of not being able to
pass the Bechdel test, alright, it's quite all right. Shall
I do a recap of the story of What Hot
American Summer? Good Luck? Thank you? Can I can I
recap the Can? I just read off the list of
names in this movie, because it is it is pretty

(10:04):
significant in terms of like most people were either famous
or became famous, and I don't think they were famous
at the time. I think it's Bradley Cooper's first movie.
It is Bradley Cooper's first movie. It's like Amy Poehler
is not quite it's people on the CUSP at this time.
So Janine Garofalo, who was famous already, David Hyde, Pierce already, Niles,
Molly Shannon I think had already been on SNL. Yeah,

(10:27):
I think so. Yeah, yeah, Paul Red we knew him
from Clueless. Because for Maloney, I don't know who that is.
Michael Maloney's from Lawn Order, but I don't know if
oh yeah, he's the she's the chef. Okay, chef in
Law and Order, the famous at the show about a
chef that Selve crimes. I guarantee that has been pitched.

(10:50):
Michael Showalter and Michael ian Black from the State, Ken Marino,
Amy Poeler, Bradley Cooper, Elizabeth Banks early role for her,
Joe lo Trulio, Judah Friedlander, and um h John Benjamin
as Can of Vegetables. Lots of names, big names, all
star casts. If you're white, I was like, is every

(11:12):
white person? Yes? Okay. So the loose narrative that this
movie follows is that it's the last day of camp
at Camp Firewood, which is a I think like Jewish
summer camp in Maine, in Maine. I think in the
set somewhere in the eighties, an eighties baby myself. I

(11:35):
I'm very good at recognizing the eighties. Um So, so
you listed the big ensemble cast. We follow different characters around.
Each of them has like a little story arc where
like Coope has a crush on this girl named Katie.
They're both counselors at this camp um, but she's dating
Andy played by Paul rudd Us. I feel like we

(11:57):
should point out that they're all clearly adults, sixteen year
old for sure, So that's a large part of the humor. Yeah,
it's like when Katie's like, I'm sixteen, I think I
literally yelled at my television, no you're not. But the
movie is like self aware enough that it knows that
that's a big There's another scene where they're like making

(12:20):
a plan to do their like ten year reunion at
some point, and they're like, we're all going to be
in our late twenties by then, and it's like, you
guys are already thirty five. It's a joke. It's hilarious.
So we've got Coope, Michael shell Walter is crushing on Katie,
who I think that's one of the few people in
the movie who didn't go on to more like mainstream success.
She's done stuff. I've definitely been a big fan of

(12:42):
hers for years because she's so beautiful. She like started
this like really like fun dramay where she played his
teacher who slept with her high schools, didn't. I think
I was the only person who watched that show. And
I can't remember the name. Cool. Yeah, but she's been
and stuff, Yeah, but I think not recently. She was
also in the O G. Mighty Ducks cast. Whoa we're

(13:03):
saying she is one of the Mighty Ducks kids. I guess, yeah,
he's a teen. She was a teen when Mighty Ducks
came up. I gotta we gotta read what we gotta
do an episode on the Mighty Ducks. Worth looking. She's
plays Connie Morrow and three Mighty Ducks movies. There you go,
good for her. So, so we've got Coope, he's crushing

(13:23):
on Katie. She's dating Andy, who feels very suffocated by
her existing in the world. Um, then we've got a
character named Victor. That's Ken Marino. He's trying to get
with this girl named Abby. But the camp director, Beth
played by Janine Garofalo, was like, you got to take
these kids out rafting, so sakes. Yeah, but then can

(13:47):
Marino does kill some kids and sort of they don't die,
they die, they disappear. So no, he's saying one drowned.
He saves them. Oh, No, that's Paul Paul Rudd. Definitely,
I kill some kids. Some kids. Yeah, uh, sorry, I

(14:08):
didn't mean to throw Ken Marino under the Paul red
You're unnoticed. You killed a bunch of kids. Uh. Then
we've got Beth, the camp director. She is interested in
Henry played by David Hyde Pierce. He is an associate
professor of astrophysics. So they're like trying to learn each
other's interests and get to know each other. Love them

(14:28):
together so great. Another storyline we see is Gayle played
by Molly Shannon. She's like the arts and crafts teacher.
She's dealing with a divorce, right, and then she gets
close to a very young camper. I love where that storyline.

(14:48):
It's so dist At the end of the movie she
marries the It's very funny the way they play it. Yeah.
And then we've got Susie Amy Poehler and Ben Bradley
Cooper are producing, directing, choreographing, choreographing. That's how you say that.
A talent show, which is sort of the big event

(15:09):
at the end of this day and the end of
the movie. Then we've got also been and McKinley played
by Michael Ian Black. They're like developing a romantic relationship.
They're gay together, they get married at some point in
the movie, and had they have the hottest scene. I've
watched it. I think four times. I was like, oh

(15:32):
my god, I've never in my life and like, Michael
Ian Black is so less a lie. I used to
have a crush on him when he was on I
love the seventies, but also he's very hot in this movie.
It's what I was like, crazy. I mean, I'm sure
we'll get to it, but I honestly think that that's
one of the most progressive scenes from that time that

(15:52):
I've seen. Yeah, absolutely agree. I feel like that whole
scene I was because two thousand one I was waiting
for a homophobic joke that didn't come. It was great,
but then everyone came in a way because that scene
is so hot. I see what you mean, Okay. And
then there's a few like kind of more secondary characters

(16:14):
like Jean played by Christopher Maloney. He's like the chef
of the camp. He has to learn to accept himself
for who he is, which is someone who fondles sweaters,
humps his fridge, etcetera. And Journey we've all been on
a class. So throughout the day, you know this stuff
is happening. Everyone's gearing up for the talent show. There's

(16:34):
like a game of Capture the Flag. There's a baseball
game that doesn't actually happen. There's like just different little
things to like fill in the time. And then at
the end, like kind of there's no conclusion at all.
Coop and Katie. I feel like they're probably the main
storyline and the characters we meet first, so you just

(16:55):
kind of first yeah, and then like I'd say, it's
even with Beth and the oh that's true, or because
like the closest we get to like the straight men
of the movie would be like Coop and Beth kind
of and this and the shot that I guess the
movie ends on a shot of the two of them,
so yeah, I guess, oh yeah, because he's just been
dumped by Katie Katie, which is yeah, and then Beth

(17:17):
goes okay and he's like yeah, and then cut to
black cute at the end. It was really cute. So
that's the movie. That's the story, if you can call
it that. There's okay, I have a quick story that
has nothing to do with anything. Uh, there's a girl
in the little Science club that Niles creates in the movie,

(17:41):
a woman in STEM, A woman and a young woman
in STEM. She's I think she's like fourteen or something.
She's like one of the actual campers. And she wears
a Cure t shirt and I guess she goes by
Cure Girl. That's the name of her character. And I
a year and a half ago, I would always have
this picture of this particular actress sent to me in
a very specific episode of Law and Order where at her.

(18:04):
So I reached out to her. I was like, because
she still lives here, she's still working at dress. I
was like, do you want to hang out and see
if we still look alike? And so we we've hung
on a couple different times, and we don't look at
anything like, Wait, you hung out with someone just because
people thought you looked alike? Yes? So I mean, did
I did for the photo or just because you thought
you'd have stuff in common? I don't know, I will

(18:25):
I just like I never get dopple, Like I never
no one ever tells me I look like anybody. And
then it was like this girl who in the Law
and Order episode she's in, she's twelve years old, and
they're like, this looks like you today, and that's true.
I've seen the photo that I can. We'll we'll put
up the photo. It does look exactly like me. It's
like a kid who's committed a cyber crime on Law

(18:48):
and Order. I was like, you always do as I'm
a hacker and so I do a lot of cyber crime.
It makes sense our vibes are similar, but it is.
It's like a screenshot where I every time this syndicated
episode come on, I get it from like ten different
people because it's and it's all of like my aunts
are like, did you get a job? I'm like, no,
a child got a job twenty years ago. Thanks so much. Anyways,

(19:12):
very important question, when you hung out, did you call
it a dopple hang I'm not sorry for that, and
because I know you're proud of it, just give five.
She didn't turn I earned it. Anyways, Let's take a

(19:36):
quick break and then we'll be back for some hot,
spicy discussion discourse. We'll be right back and we're back.
It's us again. We'll post that photo of Jamie's dopple

(19:56):
gang or who she does dopple hang out with? And okay,
I like to better. The second time, I think so much.
I was more confident in my delivery that time. Yeah,
confidence is key, Thank you so much. We'll post it
to our Instagram and you be the judge Bechtel Heads,
Bectel Heads. Yeah. So yeah, this movie, I mean it's
like a parody satire thing, but not like a very

(20:21):
extremely mart one. It's an extremely good movie. So it's
kind of hard to take anything at face value with
this movie because it's just so silly and it doesn't
really have any sort of agenda except to like just
be as silly as possible. I think so. But that said,
I mean I think that there's there's there's stuff for
us to talk about. Yeah, let's start with Beth. Sure.

(20:45):
Beth is planned by Janine Garfflo. She is the head
of the camper, a woman in charge business owner, female business.
She isn't charge and I mean I like her character
a lot. Yeah, she's she seems to be generally respected,
like even if they're not doing what she's telling them to,

(21:06):
they still respect. Like she's not like a monster and
she's not like a control freak or you know, she
assiciates a gay wedding like there people like her, right,
because a lot of times you see like a woman
in her position in media, she's like depicted as like
a shrew, like a devil wears product, Like, oh my god,
what a horrible bitch, what a heinous I feel like,

(21:28):
especially because it's like a like an eighties movie like
send Up, that would be like a very easy choice
for the movie to have made, and they don't or
like that she's completely incompetent that too. Yeah, she's like
but she's like right down the middle of like great
but not like to like attainable, you know, like I
really I like her character. Yeah, it's like she runs

(21:50):
the camp offficiently, clearly cares enough about it that David
Hyde Pierce has to purchase a book or like already
get a book about running a camp to press her.
So it's like she cares about her job, but she
also gets all her teenage cams counsels high. She's officiating
weddings right and laughed. It's there's a lot she's really
she doesn't. She approaches that kid and I don't remember

(22:12):
that character's name, but it's like the kid who hasn't
made any friends, and he's like speaks in a robot voice,
and she's like, isn't that also Michael Showalter or is
that a different no? That he right? Oh, I don't know.
I really didn't want that show. I don't know. I'm
so sorry, Michael show Walter. Does m see the Talent
Show as a different characters like that corny like stand

(22:36):
up comic maybe laughs so much? That was they just
they love I'm so old. I Ate wrapped her eggs
for breakfast. It's like it's so good. Um, But she like, yeah,
she cares enough to like she approaches that kid, She's like,
it seems like you haven't made that many friends, and like,

(22:58):
you know, what can I do to help? And she's like,
why don't you do something in the Talent Show? Meanwhile,
like Amy Poler is like, no, it has to be perfect.
And then I feel like he's a very important character
because he like conjures up the wind because it like
blows the like space equipment away. I don't again, because

(23:18):
we haven't even touched on them. We have anyone told
anybody about that whole plot. I forgot about that. It's
crazy that you can just drop out that plot and
have the movie still sort of makes sense just the
Doom's day of a satellite hitting the camp, pausing everyone
to die, right, So David Hyde Hyde Pierce's character Henry
figures out that there's like this piece of space equipment

(23:41):
like hurling towards them, so they like build this machine
to calibrate exactly where it's going to land because and
then they figure out that it's gonna land right on
the building that the talent show is in, so like,
how can we use this machine to like deviate its course?
So then they do that, But it also might have
been like the wind that the kid at the end

(24:02):
like conjures up who this movie is, Chrisy Like also
you're like you buy it immediately, of course, like within
five minutes. You're like, literally, anything could happen in this movie,
and I'd be like, sure, exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah. And
then the relationship between Beth and his name is Henry
and I'm gonna keep saying Niles, I'm sorry, but the

(24:24):
relationship between Beth and Niles is really I don't know.
I mean, it's like there are definitely some trophy parts
about it, but I feel like almost every trope is
commented on in some way to the point where I
was basically satisfied with how they treated, Like in the
first scene where she approached him first and she's like, Hi,
I'm Beth. I run the Campo a lot. And then
there's that great line read where she's like asking him like, oh,

(24:46):
I'd love for you to like to to the kids,
and he's like, oh, no, I kid and then she's like, oh,
but it would be great if you did. He's like, no,
I don't want to. And then she's like, but if
you He's like I said no, And that's the greatest
scene I've ever seen. But you know, she's like pretty
proactive in like pursuing that relationship. She does get a

(25:06):
makeover at one point sort of, and then she swoops
her hair to one side and that's basically all that happens, right,
And I'm like, how have you ever tried that? I mean,
that will change your life? She did, you know, ensnare
her one true love? After she did that, and then
I was like, oh, I almost thought it was going

(25:28):
in the direction of like, oh, the woman needs to
learn everything about the male character in order to impress him,
but then he does the same thing, so I was like, oh,
it's actually kind yeah, like that relationship, and then I
don't know, I liked it a lot. Yeah, and then
there's like that funny like a comment on the trope
at the end where they're like, we've been trying to

(25:48):
get pregnant and it hasn't been working even though they've
known each other for like less than twenty four hours.
So it's a hilarious joke. And then marries a kid, right,
so good. Yeah, So that relationship, I mean, I feel
like there's really not that much to say about it.
I thought it was very sweet and funny. Yeah, it's
a rare example, I would say, of a romantic relationship

(26:11):
in a movie where the male character isn't like stalking her,
trying to trick her vera or vice versa. Yeah, they're
just like they see each other from afar. They seem
interested in each other, so they very respectfully just like meet,
you know, respectful, you know, said a relative term, but

(26:32):
within the rules of this world. And that's exactly they
figure out what each of the other person is interested in.
They go and do research on that so that they
have more things to talk about. And yeah, she does
lie at first, and it's like I know all about astrophysics,
but then she goes out and learns all about that
one day. I love how this movie operates it within time.

(26:56):
That's my favorite in the movie, because she's like, oh no,
I don't actually anything about astrophysics, How can I get
out of this convo? And she's like, um, what time
is it? And then he looks up at the sky.
So great, what a great joke. Um. But yeah, So
it's like in so many movies we see like a
man lying to a woman, manipulating her for the sake

(27:20):
of like a romantic pursuit or like stalking her, and
that's supposed to be romantic, like all this stuff. So
this movie doesn't subscribe to any of those very problematic things.
And I guess so like points for that, but yeah
it is. I didn't give it that much thought when
I was watching it, but yeah, it's like actually a
pretty well handled like budding of a romantic relationship. Yeah.

(27:44):
I mean, I also think that, like the movie is
about sex and love, you know, that's like what the
majority of the characters want and desire and so like
in the sense that like, for the most part, women
are talking about men like the men are talking about women.
I think that's okay though them, and that's like what
the movie is about. But then I think that they
handled those relationships well right for being a movie about
that stuff, right, because you know what movie like that

(28:06):
that doesn't handle it well at all? Is love actually
worse ensemble? That's a hot take. I think I haven't
looked at it with my with my new eyes. Well
give the Love actually episode. We did listen, and it
is don't ruin the movie? It is, Yeah, it is.

(28:27):
If you want to continue to enjoy that movie, you
can never watch it again. That's really the only way
you can continue to love it. No, I'm already just
thinking about moments of that movie and I'm like, oh no,
the whole the most famous scene is scary, that with
with the que cards and the horrible Yeah. Can I
jump ahead to Katie please? Well? I think that so

(28:51):
Katie is the one that Coop likes, and she's she's
like the popular girl whose boyfriend Paul Rudd is like
constantly cheating on her with Elizabeth Banks. And I think
that we expect her to end up with Coope and
to be like, oh, I eat, this guy is an asshole.
I should be here with this nice guy who's like
always been there for me and like it's obsessed with me,

(29:11):
and that sort of plays into like the nice guys
deserve the pretty girls, but instead she's like I just
want to fuck and you're not who I want to
do that with, and my boyfriend is and I'm sorry there,
but there is like there, there's a moment where for
a second, for one scene, you think that she is
going to end up with she like rushes out of

(29:33):
the Talent Show and she's like, I love, You're gonna
be with you, bah bah and he so you get
that moment that like feels disappointing of like really like
he's really gonna that doesn't make any sense, and you
get that kiss, and then it's like the next scene
where she's like I don't wanna fuck you, blah blah blah.
And then she also calls out because the whole time
I don't know. I was like, how does she not

(29:54):
know that Paul Read is cheating on her because a
child literally drowned while he was cheating on her blatantly
doing it, But she says, I mean, she's like, I
know he cheats on me all the time. I don't care.
I want to suck him as much as I can
because I'm quote unquote seventeen. I mean in a way,
isn't that so empowering? I thought it was great. We

(30:15):
never see women say that, right, This is the thing,
is like cheating is this thing that I think is
in a lot of relationships going away because people are
just in open relationships. So like if you put that
lens on their relationship, then they're just in an open
relationship and like who cares, you know what I mean,
she doesn't care about cheating, then that's basically what it is.
Then it's not I mean it's not it is still

(30:36):
cheating because he's lying to her about it. But like
they could have easily just been in an open relationship
and she would down. Yeah, so very progressive. Yeah, yeah,
it's rare that you see a woman who's just like
so sexually empowered that she's like, I don't really care
what the circumstances are. I just want to fuck because
she's not like hurt by him cheating, right, Like, she

(30:57):
doesn't care. She doesn't care. Even she's like, I know,
my boyfriend's pretty lame, but like he's extremely high. So
arguably she's like a little superficial, but like but like
she's open about it. The only thing that I thought
that that was like that was definitely and that's within
this world that makes sense. But her character at the beginning,

(31:19):
I think part of the reason that that end, her
ending is so like impactful and kind of like whoa,
I didn't see that coming is because she doesn't act
that way for a lot of the movie, where at
the beginning of the movie, we see her ask for
more attention from Paul Red's character sick not sex. No,
there's a there's a scene where she literally says like,

(31:41):
uh oh, I don't know if I read an the
exact quote, but there's a scene where she's just like,
why don't you like pay more? She's asking him for
more emotion, She's asking him, and then she basically says
like I feel you're like you're paying attention to other
people and not me, And so you don't get the
vibe from her of like all she wants to do
is fuck. But then in the journey of this twenty
four hours, at the end she's like, Okay, no, now

(32:03):
I understand what he's At the beginning, I feel like
we're supposed to think she has no idea he's cheating
on her, so it is kind of like a change.
Although I would say if you rewatch the movie knowing
how like horny she is at the end and like
how much she just wants to have sex, if you
look at her character and like what she says through
that lens by rewatching the movie, she's always like, come on,

(32:24):
like when are we going to hang out and like
go off and like hang out together. So you could
kind of read it as like when can we go
off and have sex sort of thing, So it's not
it's certainly not explicit until the very end. Yeah, she's like,
I just want to spend time with you, and then
he says fuck you. So Paul Rud's character, that's he's

(32:45):
wild because like but he's playing what's very clearly like
a kind of aggro toxic masculinity. He's he's bad boy.
He's wearing Aviator sunglasses. He's always like, yeah, he doesn't
give us she's his girlfriend and kills a child in
the same scene. Like he's that kind of guy, right,

(33:07):
But I think that's all played up for humor, and
if anything is being commented on in this movie, I
think like toxic masculinity in the form of his character
is sort of like being commented on or like when
I was at camp, like of course you love that guy,
and so it like makes you realize what a loser
that guy was. And I also think the fact that

(33:29):
Paul Red, even though he is eternally young, he's clearly not,
you know, a teenager in that movie. He's like it,
well into his thirties. But it is cool to see
someone with like a teenager ish swagger, like in the
body of a thirty three year old man looks he
was thirty three, and Paul Red is born to thirty two.

(33:49):
He's born in sixty nine, which is what Paul Red
is fort nine years old. Just so everyone knows, there
is a Dorrian Gray portrait somewhere rotting away as Paul
drinks people's blood and grows more powerful. I'm assuming we
don't know. I think it's a theory. But Paul Red
is forty nine years old. He's thirty two years old
in this It's it's insane, it's unfair, it's violence against

(34:13):
all humans. I also want to talk about Coop's approach
to his crush on Katie, because at one point he
says something like, you know, I love you, and I
love the way you laugh, and I love I don't
care that you're bilingual. A bunch like silly stuff, but
like he's mostly saying that he appreciates her for her

(34:36):
like personality, her intelligence or sense of humor. But also
at the beginning of the movie, they have a very
brief conversation and he says, that's the longest I've ever
talked to her. So I think that they don't really
even know each other. I think he's just saying that
stuff because that's like what he thinks, he thinks, but
really he just thinks she's beautiful. Yeah, I think that
they're I mean, I feel like Coop is one of

(34:58):
the more subtle uses of common terry in a very
unsettle movie where he is kind of like set up
to be this typical like you know, nice guys finished
last but until the end of the movie, and then
he gets the girl like you were just saying, Elison,
But then he doesn't like he you know, like he
doesn't get what he wants. And I think that that's

(35:18):
cool and it calls out that like he barely does know,
so like the things he says at the end are
kind of empty platitudes. But then also like they do
become friends throughout the weird amount of time that the
movie takes place, and because there's a few scenes of
them alone together, there's like when everyone finds out that
like he hasn't you know, like gotten laid, and she

(35:41):
is saying, I guess, like she's like, well why not.
You should be sucking as much as possible, and he's like, uh,
you know, like sluts Rock, it just has to be
the right slut. Like that's very He's very sex positive
and not slut sham. So sluts Rock, said feminist icon
Coop about, well, then that reminds me of another character,

(36:02):
Victor ken Marino's character, where he is like putting on
this like persona of like being this like macho stud
who fox everyone, and he's like so good at sex,
and then he reveals to draw the trilio that he
is a virgin. He's never had sex before, and it
was this big shocker for us as him, the guy

(36:26):
constantly talking about sex has never had sex. So if again,
that might be intentional commentary on sort of you know,
toxic masculinity, or it just might be a silly joke.
It's kind of hard to tell, but um yeah, I
don't know. Like his character is just like so absurd.

(36:48):
Although man, I'm just I keep thinking of all the
very funny things that happened this movie. When he's like
running back to camp the bail of Hay because he
has to like jump over. Oh another scene. This is
a different character, but another scene that I love so
much is Andy Paul Rod finishing his lunch or something

(37:10):
and then like flinging his plate and then Beth is like,
what are you doing? Pick that up right now? And
he's just like, I'll get it later, and she's like, no,
pick that up now. Yeah, And then he respects her
authority because she's a respectful figure. There, let's let's go.
There's so many characters. Gail the Molly Shannon character. Yes,

(37:33):
this is another character where at first I'm like, uh,
this is one of the characters I probably like the least.
But then she still has an arc, like they all
have tiny arcs that are mostly effective where we're introduced
to her and kind of like another trophy character of
like the divorced woman who can't get over it, and
she's so she's so divorced, she's handicapped. Yeah, yeah, like

(37:58):
she can't even do her job right that she's so
upset about her divorce from Judah Freelander, which is like,
talk about a twist right to Freelander thinking he could
deserve Molly Shannon. But by the end it's like it.
First the laughs are coming from the fact that it's like, oh,
she's so pathetic, she can't move on, she can't do

(38:20):
her job. But then her students, especially one special guy
who she does marry, even though he's a loving like
coach her and get her confidence up. And then we
she has a moment at the talent show where she
stands up for herself. Judah Freelander shows up and he's like,

(38:40):
take me back, and she's like, no, I'm with She
doesn't even say I'm with him now, which is great.
But later we're like, she she do what she was
gonna do. She's going to marry that kid, she's already
there's another man's let's try to unpack that. Okay, Okay,
never mind, I want that could not have been gender reversed.

(39:04):
That would have been it would be having a very
different Let me keep that. Okay, So are we say
that at least we never see them kiss, because we
do see Abby kiss that kid named Moose. At the end,
I just say that I don't support older women and children.

(39:26):
I'm just saying, like in our society tends to be
more accepted, even though it shouldn't be. Let the let
the record that we hear on the Bectel Cast do
not support adults in romantic relationships with children. I know
that's a hot take, but but we are not for that. Um.
But yeah, it's just like I get it, they're doing

(39:49):
it for the joke, and it is, but again it's
the older woman and the younger boy. But it's like
I feel like, until very very recently, that's always been
you as like great job man, for sure, like cool
you you've got an older woman, great for you, And
like only like like in the last two weeks people like,
actually that's not still statutory, right, Yeah, yeah, because you

(40:13):
hear stories about like teenage boys having sex with their
like teachers, female teachers, and like the idea for a
long time and still a lot of people think this
is just like yeah, way, just like good jobs, like
this belief that like boys can't be taking advantage of
which which doesn't make any sense because when they're taking
advantage of by men, everyone understands that that's like not appropriate. Right,

(40:37):
let's unpack that out. I mean there's perhaps hyper masculinity
is alive and well and what no, I agree with
everything that was just said. Let the record show it
made me laugh. Um and okay, one one more note
on the Gail character. Inside of that storyline, there were

(41:00):
a few like cool lines from whenever the kids are
pumping her up, which is not problematic for kids to
be supportive of their perhaps suffering teacher. I mean, it
is problematic for her to be like, here are my
very personal issues, but it's a movie. But there are
female students that are encouraging her as well, like they're like,
there's a lot that men do that's inexcusable, and they're

(41:21):
basically her like young students are rejecting like hyper masculinity
in theory, and she's like, oh, I've never thought of
it this way. Maybe Judah Freelander is a loser and
blah blah blah. And so I thought that was good.
I don't know why I started anti this storyline, and
then for some reason just like violently defended so the

(41:42):
youth is the future. That's it's true. All right, we
still have four characters to talk about, So let's take
a quick break and we'll be back in a second.
And we're back, So who do we want to do next.
There's a few small quickies. There's Lindsay, the Elizabeth Banks character.

(42:03):
Her thing is that she sucks. She's very horny. She's
a woman aggressively going after Andy. Paul Rudd. He is
receptive to it, even though oftentimes his girlfriend Katie is
right there. Um. But then he decides, so they make
out a few times. One of those times a kid

(42:24):
does drown on his watch, and then he throws another
kid who was like his swimming partner out of a
van to like the kid killer nothing. But also those
scenes make me laughing. Really, the drowning scene, I was dying.
I will say Elizabeth Banks early in her career, and

(42:45):
I think she's so interesting. I really like her, and
she like once she and I feel like this is
a kind of a common path for female actors almost
by nature of how the careers were. Yeah, by by
default is what I'm gonna say. She's look out about
it later, but early in her career there's a lot
of roles like this that she's given over and over
and over. I think I mean pretty clearly because she's

(43:08):
she's very talented, she's so funny in this movie, but
she's not given much to do kind of because of
her body type and because of how she looks. She
plays a very similar role that is not commenting on
anything in The forty year Old Virgin, just like early
in her career Old Virgin, she sucks Steve Carrell for
no reason. It's a very frustrating movie to watch her

(43:30):
and like it's basically pick up that bar. She's the
one who's like wasted, No, that's Leslie Man. She works
at like a bookstore. And Seth Rogan, who should be
deported back to Canada. I can't say it enough. Basically,
Seth Rogan sends Steve Carrell's character and to be like, hey,
she's wearing a thong so you could suck her. And
then Steve Carrell goes to her and she's like, who's

(43:53):
this hottie? Like it's just the whole scene is insane.
But like Elizabeth Banks's early career is littered with characters
like this in a way that makes me like frustrated
for her because we know now she's capable of so
much more, and it's done a lot of good stuff,
and I think that's what Joe herd to produce and
to direct and to be more in the creative positions,

(44:13):
that she could have those roles that were meteor. So
even though she's like good in this movie, we know
that she's capable of much more. I was like a
little frustrated. Also the founder of who Ha ha, which
is a celebration of women in comedy and like empowerment
of women doing comedy stuff, very true. And then the year,
I mean this is like the year before, she's like

(44:36):
rejected from being given the part of Mary Jane Watson
in the first Spider Man movie because she was too old,
even though she was the same age as Toby McGuire. So,
oh my god, really, yeah, she's she's has a very
small part in Spider Man, but the part, I mean,
Toby McGuire was too old to play Spider Man. It
was like twenty eight or something, and Elizabeth Banks was

(44:58):
twenty eight and they're actually told me the Wuire's Kris
and Dunce is seventeen, so she was only seventeen. She
was only seventeen in that Movie's just a bunch of
upsetting fun facts about So in this movie, I'm like, man,
this is the era where Elizabeth Banks is not getting
her do right. Yeah, well, um she's shown us though.

(45:21):
Yeah wait wait seventeen years and then we see her
full potential, right. Yeah, She's basically only in this story
to be seen making out with Paul Red a few
times and to have barbecue sauce all over her face.
That was fun, that was fun. But her talents are
under utilized in that character is barely written. Like, yeah,

(45:43):
she's kind of I thought for some reason when I
before I started rewatching this, I thought that she had
a much more like crucial role in the story. And
then I was like, oh no, she like hardly does anything.
She's only there to make it. Yeah, Like when we
think of the movie with her, we're like, oh, she's
going to be the star, gonna have a big role.
No one uses Elizabeth Banks in a meaningful way until

(46:03):
like two thousand and eight. It's crazy. Yeah. Anyways, shall
we talk about Susie Amy Poehler's character. Yeah, she, I
think is the only female character whose storyline does not
deal with a romantic relationship to a man. Yeah, yeah,
so that was interesting. She's all about making the talent

(46:26):
show the best it can possibly be. Peak theater kid,
I can't remember. So, so she's working closely with Ben
played by Bradley Cooper, and I can't remember which of
them is like the she's the producer and he's the
director of choreography or vice versa. I forget who exactly
has I think she'd have to be the producer, right,
she has such a she's so intense, right, Yeah, So

(46:48):
she's working closely with him, and they're both like these
like kind of authoritarian like artistic types to be like
what this has to be like this, and these kids
fucking suck singing and such a travesty, which I find
to be very funny because then the kids do fine,
really good job and she's like, oh, that's horrible bullshit.

(47:10):
But yes, I enjoyed that there was at least one
storyline that doesn't tie her to like a romantic interest,
and another character who we see a few different sides
of where most of her spoken lines are very uptight,
like oh, I'm a theater director. But then she's also
heavily featured in the scene where they get so high
they almost die and she's like having fun and she's

(47:32):
like she's friends with Katie. Apparently there's like a few
different scenes where they're like like you know, friend cuddling
or whatever, and so it's like it's also like so
supportive of the marriage. Yeah, she's like playing a flute
or a recorder. Yeah, she's like super okay with that,
and like, so he's got a bunch of stuff going on.

(47:56):
We don't see a full life. We don't see that
much of her on screen. We're kind of filling the blanks.
But like an Amy Pool is just so good that
I feel, yeah, like you feel like you see her
more than you actually do, because every time you see her,
yeah yeah she I mean she buries Bradley Cooper every time.
Sorry Bradley, but can you imagine them now? She would

(48:18):
still now, she would still him. That's why they have
not appeared on screen. Who else do we have? We
have Abby? Abby? Yes, Abby is the another very horny girl.
I'm kind of really into how horny all the girls are,
especially because they're not ever like shamed. They're never shamed,

(48:40):
and the boys are too, Like I think it's just
a commentary on like this time in your life when
like your hormones are just like out of control and
you're like in this contained space with like very minimal supervision.
And then they just turned it to eleven because the
movie starts with like a bunk full of like what
do they like eleven year olds? Everyone is just making
out under the verse, and then they like sneak out

(49:02):
and then there's like the shot of like all the
campers from every cabin having to run back to their
horny movie at all time. So much horny depth, but
like what jew camp is like from what I never
went to a Jewish camp. I went to regular camp,
but I heard that JUW camp was like I'm Jewish,
I can say it was like even more like sexed
up than like regular sleepboy camp. Fun and my sleepboy

(49:25):
camp wasn't horny at all. I went to girl Scout camp.
Was it horny? Guys? It was unfortunately not that horny.
Goddamn it. I want to go to horny camps too late,
you know what, I don't think so Abby and Lindsay
make out at the end. Yeah, there's a scene between
the two of them where how did you get at

(49:45):
where did you fall on that? I wasn't sure. I
was hardy well that because I'm like, isn't being played
for last it kind of? I think it is, Yeah,
And I think these are two of the horny's characters
we see, let's put them together and have them. I
think the idea is that they're so horny that it
doesn't matter who they're kissing. So I don't know if
it's even like there like queer characters. It's more that

(50:09):
they're just like, these are two such horny people that
they'll make out with a kid, they'll make out with
a woman, even if they aren't queer, like obviously one
that makes that with a kid, right, yes, yeah, okay,
so I seed this movie out loud. There is a
lot of problems. So yeah, I think it was played
more as a joke and less as although like who

(50:31):
knows they might be by they might be you know,
pan sexual? Who knows? We simply don't know them very
well exactly. So I think with the context were given
about their sexuality, it's not that much because up till
then we've only seen them kissing men were literal boys,
so that they're there's their sexual preferences aren't really explored

(50:54):
enough to know whether or not they're actually queer, which
is which that that moment, I was like, Oh, this
is kind of a bummer a little bit, because it
is kind of being played for last in a movie
that otherwise dealt with queerness, I thought, in a way
more mature way than most movies and it's genre would
And so I was like, Oh, that's kind of a
throwaway joke because I think we're led to believe that

(51:15):
they are not queer, and there's nothing in the subtext
of the movie that would suggest right otherwise except for
that one. Except for that one. But it's a joke,
So I didn't like love that. But also I don't know,
I don't know. I guess I'm kind of just like,
there's another kind of problematic moment where um, a lot
of the counselors are kind of taking off their clothes

(51:37):
and like getting into their their like in their bikinis,
and they're about to take a dip in the pond
or whatever, and I think it's J J. Gary and
McKinley is there too, I think, and they're basically just
like watching them. So it's like, but the way it's
shot is like very male gaze, where it's like panning
up and down there like scantily clad bodies, and like,
so I get it if you want to show kind

(52:00):
of toxic male characters gazing at women and like make
a commentary on how like that's kind of gross because
that's what's happening. But also the way it's shot means
that we're seeing it through their lens, which is still
the male gaze, and it's still like leaves lingering ways. Yeah,
like here's he's so gross, but also you get to

(52:20):
see it, dude. Yeah. Yeah, So that's when like McKinley,
who has no interest in women, sneaks off and he's
like I don't care about what seeing girls in their bikinis,
and then we see him go into like the shed
and start having sex with Ben. So let's talk about that.
We've been waiting so long to talk about that. It's

(52:43):
a great scene. Yeah, yeah, it's like steamy and hot.
It's not like for laughs at all. I'd say it's
like the most genuine of this, like the makeout scenes,
and like, I mean, it's a beautiful moment. Great because
a lot of the other sexy moments in the movie
are played relax because it's like either characters like shoving

(53:05):
gum into their mouth right before they make out, or
like a character taking your shirt off for no reason,
or like a character's face like covering in barbecue sauce.
So it feels like it was so planned or like
it was like a goal versus just like a genuine
attraction between two people. And this is just like they
have just like incredible chemistry. Straight sexuality as portrayed by

(53:25):
this movie is fucking gross, nasty, yeah, and and and
it's stinky and it's dirty, and then you see this
like incredible sex scene in a shed where you're just like, I,
I didn't know, I wanted to see Michael Ian black shirtless.
I didn't know, and then I did and know they

(53:46):
never go back. And then and then the way their
story lamp plays out, I thought it was like cool
to see how many you know, because there are like
gay slurs used in this movie, but the characters who
use them then witness the wedding and you see that
there's a good portion of this camp in that is
so supportive of this setting. We're playing flutes where you know,

(54:09):
like the head of the camp is officiating the wedding,
and then those characters come around because they change so
they use like the homophobic slurs and there it seems
like they're grossed out at first, but then and this
is all this is that one day and this is
played as a joke, but I think the joke works
because you think that they're horrified and disgusted by their

(54:31):
same sex relationship. And there's a scene where they, like
where j J and Gary go and like confront McKinley
and Ben and they're like, hey, McKinley, this is for you.
And you think they're gonna like like assault them or
something like that, but they buy them like a chaise
lounge and they're like, hey, here, we just bought this
for you. I hope it matches with your other frontitor whatever.

(54:52):
They're like, oh my gosh, it does. Then and then
queer bashing is resolved at this camp forever. So yeah,
those like characters that start out being homophobic like very
quickly learn their lesson and come around. If only it
were that easy. Um, I want to go back to
their sex scene. Though. Queer characters are so underrepresented in

(55:15):
media that it's horrible travesty when they are represented, it's
usually a horrible misrepresentation, and even if they're represented in
a positive light, we usually don't get to see especially
men kissing other men and definitely not gay mail sex,
like we only it'll maybe like cut off right at

(55:36):
the kiss or like you don't. So even mainstream movies
about queer characters in a romantic context, we might if
we're lucky, we get to see two men kiss, and
even that's rare. You know, I got my fingers crossed.
I just want to see kiss, which is true for me. Um,

(55:56):
But the fact that you like see it's not a
epic sex scene. It's the way that you treat a
sex scene between like a straight couple in like a
like a PG thirteen movie. You know, like it's like shade.
It's like kind of like a cruel intentions level, like
a sex scene where it's like really hot and like
when you're a kid and you watch, you're like this
is incredible, but then like as an adult, like, oh,

(56:18):
I'm not actually seeing anything scandalous, but they created this
feeling in this moment that felt very sexual for sure. Yeah,
so I just even though it's just like close ups
on their socks yea. Even so, like I think it's
pretty fascinating, and does this movie handle queer culture super well?

(56:39):
And is it super responsible? I would argue, like, you know,
it's it could be worse, it could be better. But
the fact that you do see like a same sex
male sex scene in this movie, when that almost never happens,
and it's and they then get married, Yeah, they're like
in love. It's not just like, oh I experimented right right, Yeah,

(57:01):
I can't get beautiful. It's it's like really hot and
then later it's beautiful. Great, what's a journey that one day? Yeah?
I mean as a straight person, I see scenes like
this and I'm like, there's probably something problematic here, but
I don't know quite what it is because I'm like
seeing it through the lens of a straight lady. But

(57:23):
if any listeners have additional thoughts on this scene, please
let us know, yes, yes, yes, please, if anyone just
wants to talk about it, if anyone just wants to
watch the scene with us. We really like the scene
that we think it's very hot, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Who else do we have to talk about? We could
talk about Gene. I don't know, I mean Gene is

(57:45):
the lunchman. The lunchman there, I mean there, It's It's
it's hard with a movie like this because I could
say perhaps that they are because he his whole storyline
is he when he got back from Vietnam, he was different,
and so his whole storyline is a veteran PTSD joke

(58:09):
that's worth saying, and how he has multiple personnelity like
it plays multiple personality disorder as a jog, that plays
PTSD as a jug, It plays being a veteran as
a joke. It portrays veterans that are crazy, but then
it's portraying veterans that have mental illness but are also
really cool with it, which is not really a realistic
portrayal of anything in the world of the movie. I

(58:34):
honestly don't know where to fall on it, but it's
worth acknowledging that his whole character is a big PTSD
mental illness joke and that has maybe manifested into like
some interesting kink things that he is now into fondling
sweaters and having Dick cook cream and so yeah, the

(58:57):
way that whole thing is handled hallucination is in the
form of a stron Benjamin. I would argue that that
character is real and a camper at the camp. I
think that can of vegetables is I think. I think
our vegetable listeners are cans of vegetable listeners, of which
we have many. Sorry if I made you not feel seen, right,
I think, Um, they're real and we need to respect

(59:18):
them as they are. My deepest apologies. It's okay. Um, yeah,
I think that we touched on every There's one other
named female character of the adults, and there might be
some like of the campers the kids, but um, they
so rarely play into the story that yeah, the character right. Um,

(59:39):
there's Nancy, the nurse. She works at the infirmary. The
big moment that she she has a few moments. She
like basically has to remind several adults what a library
is and how do you use it? I forgot about that.
And she goes up to Beth whenever Beth is saying
that she's going to go into town, and Nancy says,

(01:00:01):
if you're going into town, can you pick me up
something at the drug store. My husband's coming today and
I need some lube for my pussy. Uh does that
seem pass the bacto test? We'll find out, but stay tuned. Yea.
So she is also extremely horny and sexual. So another
example of a sexually liberated progressive gal in the movie.

(01:00:25):
And I guess she's meant to be older if she
has a husband, because I feel like some of the
characters are like some are older. Gail, Yeah, Gail, who
is like married and divorced, and Nancy must be so
they're not like the counselors who are like, you know,
these sixteen year old kids. But um, yeah, I mean
there's hardly anything to say about her aside from the
fact that she is very horny and wants to have

(01:00:48):
sex with her husband. Everyone in this movie is very horny.
An equal opportunity you know, provider. Yeah, yeah, I mean
I support that. Literally every person in this movie can
of vegetables is horny for someone. He said something. He
sucks his own dick, So there's like, I do it.

(01:01:11):
This is the dumbest movie, but so fun, so much fun.
Does anyone have any other thoughts about the representation of
women in White Hot American Summer? I think pretty good. Well,
let's talk about whether or not this movie passes the
backtel test. By everything I could tell for sure, it
does a lot of different times. Yes, I don't know,

(01:01:34):
so by our standard, we just need a two line exchange.
So it's a low bar for us. Uh And yet
so many movies don't bother to even try. But there's
a scene um in like the arts and crafts classroom
between Gail and then Valerie is named um. Valerie is like, hey,
we could draw with some markers and carols like listen, Valerie,

(01:01:56):
I need you to be helpful here. I do not
need you to undermine me, and felleries like but there's
only one crayon, like we could color with these hundreds
of colored markers, and then Gail starts sobbing. But does
that count because there are there are male campers in
the scene? Um, right, for the way that we do it,
our interpretation of it, it does. Okay, I played by

(01:02:19):
your rules. And the first time I had it counting
was there's like a very dumb exchange between Beth and
Nancy where like Beth says, like, we got through another
summer except for a couple of kids who became lepers,
and then Nancy says, good one. Beth, You're like, yeah,
that's technically fast unless the campers who are now lepers

(01:02:41):
were all boys. We don't. Uh. Then there's that scene
between Beth and Katie that is the text of it is, yeah, Katie,
you're hot, right, But that's about seducing a man, right,
that one I in the subtext it's it's tricky, I
don't know this one. Ann is never mentioned until the

(01:03:02):
very end of that conversation, which this conversation maybe like
a minute or too long. So it's Katie's like, you dog,
you have a crush on someone, and she's like, I
do have a crash. I just don't think he's interested.
But up until that part of the conversation, a man
is not mentioned. But you're right the whole but we
know why she's asked. The subtext of that conversation is
so that she can be more physically appealing to a man.

(01:03:23):
So I would say that does not pass for that reason. Um,
and let's say that that context isn't there, and they're
just talking about, like how do I be more hot
to feel better about myself? They are talking about clothes. Pants.
Pants get brought up a lot. It's like, what is
this the sisterhood of the Traveling Pants? Um, unbelievable reference.

(01:03:49):
You're welcome, and yeah, they talked about like clothes and
hair and like, you know, stereotypically feminine things. Um so
still not great even if it did. There's another Beth
and Nancy passing moment where Beth that's Nancy what? And
again it is the subtext would be she's getting something

(01:04:10):
to impress David. I'd pierce on paper. She asked Nancy
where she would find a book and Nancy tells her
a library, right, and then she's just like, all right,
great work. So that passes. But again, yeah, Beth is
asking so that she can impress a man. So with
the subtext, I would say it does not pass. I

(01:04:32):
don't know, it's just a man. It's almost as if
the BECO test is imperfect and not the greatest litmus test.
Let's see there's an Oh, there's a scene between Susie
and Beth. It's after Beth is like, hey, like, nerdy camper,
why don't you do something at the talent show? And
Susie's like, how dare you ussert my authority? I've been
busting my balls to make this thing great and everything's

(01:04:55):
still a mess and the kids are a bunch of amateurs.
So she's like going on this long tirade to Beth,
but Beth never responds, so that all that doesn't I
would say, actually that this movie does not pass. That's
what I thought, because of all of the sub subtext.

(01:05:16):
Yeah but wait, what was the one? There was one
where you guys commit the one about the crayons and
the markers. But that scene. But I think if we're
going in on the subtext, that series of lines is
just a run Yeah, that's a run up to her
person into tears over her ex husband. Right, Yeah, she's
breaking down emotionally because she's so distraught because of her husband.
So yeah, that that whole the subtext there is still

(01:05:38):
revolving around a man. So let's say this. If you're
just reading a lot of these conversations on paper and
don't know the subtext of them at all, the movie
would technically pass a few times. But when you add
then the subtext back in, all of those conversations have
to do with a man, which, as you said, it
makes sense. This is a movie about romance, largely hetero romance,

(01:06:01):
so it makes sense that you know, if women are talking,
it's because of a romantic interest in some regard so yeah,
I don't know. I would say that with subtexts, the
movie does not pass. I'd still say it's rather progressive
for the time age. Yeah, so well, let's let's write
the movie on our nipple scale zero to five nipples

(01:06:22):
is our range, and we rate based on its portrayal
and representation of women. I would say, for me, it's
weird because this movie is so silly and so stupid that,
like I said, it's hard to take anything kind of
at face value because the intent of the filmmakers is
often not very clear. The jokes kind of maybe undermine

(01:06:47):
some of the stuff. And it's like, does this movie
have so many horny women in it because the filmmaker
wanted to portray like a sex positive narrative of like
female characters like owning their sexual reality. Or is it
because the filmmaker just wanted to have like a bunch
of horny teens, Because that's funny, kind of hard to say.

(01:07:08):
What does come across? Is it? Maybe? I can't think? Okay,
so let's say it's both because there's no there's no
slut shaming. That's true. Normally, when it's just the second one,
there would be some of like oh, she's a horror
you know, and there's not there's none of that. I
mean compared, there's a bit too abby. There's a few
moments where they're like, she's the sluttiest girly camp. There's

(01:07:28):
a few true if you compare this movie to like
Sleepaway Camp, which is another movie about teens away at
a summer camp and very different genre, but in that
movie you follow the tropes of like, any women who
have sex get murdered because horror movie. Um so at least,
and that's just you know, a way of like shaming
women for having sexuality. Basically, so, um at least no

(01:07:51):
women getting murdered in this movie, so and that stuff.
For that, I give it five nipples. No, I would say,
I'm going to give us like a two and a half.
It's progressive for its time, but it's I don't think
this movie is going out of its way to like
be progressive or toold make any profound statements about like
gender politics or anything like that. I think because of

(01:08:13):
the movie being is like silly as it is, it's
sort of by accident, has some like interesting female characters
who have agency over their own sexuality and things like that.
But we also see, you know, fairly well fleshed out
female characters in like Beth and her being in charge
and like the respected leader in the community, stuff like that.

(01:08:36):
It's nice, But I also think that it's just it's
almost too stupid to be like a movie that we
can classify as a feminist text. I would argue that
that that's not fair, Like I don't think that you
can you can say that based on a genre, Like
I think if a movie follows through on like what
type of movie it is, it can still be excellent
as that type of movie. Sure, And this is not

(01:08:58):
to say that I'm putting comedies in this. This is
a broad, absurdist comment. But I think that it's still,
like I'm going to rate it three point five interesting, Okay.
I think that that Beth very easily could have been
a male character and she wasn't. And she's the leader
of the entire camp, and she's like our our backbone
of the story, and I like her as a character.

(01:09:19):
And I also like how sex positive the movie is
and how progressive it is about that the gay couple.
The perfect I mean, because this movie happened the world's
most perfect scene was to film, and for that we
have to be grateful. I'm gonna hit with three for
all the affirmation. I mean, it is great to see

(01:09:40):
like a teen female character like embracer sexuality and not
be punished. Especially I think that was a really good
point gal of like in the context of Camp, where
teenage girls are always punished for sexuality at camp. Something
with our Listen to our Friday the thirteenth episode where
we talk a lot about murder Camp. Uh. Yeah, so

(01:10:02):
it's good to see a bunch of horny nastiness. That's great.
I love it. I love that scene. Obviously, it is
the whitest movie of all times worth mentioning. But for
I agree, especially considering this came out in two thousand one,
I feel like, as far as two thousand one goes,

(01:10:22):
this is pretty much as good as it's going to get.
My rating was for two thousand and one because the
ethnicity issues, like the diversity issues are huge in Again,
I've only seen the Netflix series of this, like the
I think the first day of Camp I've seen. I
think I watched that the whole way through. They'd introduce
a few new characters. I can't remember if any of

(01:10:43):
them are people of color or I think it stays
pretty white. We found the fatal flaw right and this
otherwise perfect movie. Yeah, So I'm gonna go to two
point five nipples and I'm going to um give mine
aipples to one to McKinley, one to Beth, and my

(01:11:05):
half nipple will go to Susie because I appreciated that
she was an artistic director of talent, which is something
that I used to do. So like I really identified
with prayer. I know I'm gonna give I had three,
Give one to Beth and give one to Abby, and

(01:11:29):
I'm gonna give one to Gale. All right, ye would
you like to give your nipples away rewards? Give one
to Beth, one to McKinley, one to Katie, and then
half to Susie. Great, cool, excellent, Allison, Thank you so
much for being here. Where can people follow you? What

(01:11:51):
would you like to plug? I'd love to plug my
my own podcast, Gossip, which is a scripted comedy um
that's available wherever you can find podcasts. You can also
go to Gossip podcast dot com, and then you can
find me personally at Alice and Raskin wherever, and then
my YouTube channel is just between us and my book
is I Hate everyone but you and just between is
with a friend of the cast, Gabby Done. Yeah, same

(01:12:15):
with the book awesome. You can follow the backtel Cast
on social media, you can write and review us on iTunes,
you can go to our website backtel cast dot com,
and you can subscribe to our Matreon gets you to
bonus episodes every month, and it's only five dollars a month. Well,
shall we all go off and be horny at camp? Yeah?

(01:12:41):
All right, I'll see you there. Okay, bye bye