Copaganda: Humanizing The Dehumanizers 03.12.24

In episode 1639, Jack and Miles are joined by movement lawyer, political commentator, public defender, and host of Olurinatti, Olayemi Olurin, to discuss… The Social Impact Of Copaganda, The Menu Of Shows Is Staggering, There Are Some Pretty Staggering Myths Buried In Law And Order Specifically, More Than The Cops This Helps Obfuscate The Role Of Prosecutors, Selection Bias, We Never Defunded The Police and more!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello the Internet, and welcome to Season three, twenty nine,
Episode two of Daily Like Ice Day production of iHeart Radio.
And it's always fun to do that in a hotel.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Room if people don't know what the fuck is going.

Speaker 1 (00:14):
On, what the fuck the people next door think is happening.
This is a podcast where we take a deep dive
into America's shared consciousness in case you're wondering what the
hell is happening. And it is Tuesday, March twelfth, twenty four,
that weekday many shout out till the beginning of March.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Shout out my boys Mike and Chris. They have the
same birthday today. Also, and if it's your birthday, it's
probably everyone's birthday on every day we record potentially, so
happy birthday to you if you're four March twelve. Also
it's National Working Mom's Day, National Baked Scallops Day, National
plant a Flower Day, and National Girl Scout Day.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
Do you have other friends with birthdays around this time?
Because I always say that the thing that makes me
believe that there's something to all the astrology shit is that,
like my best friends from growing up, Chris and Jose
and then my wife are like born within three days
of each other. And then there's other people in my
life who like had close birthdays close to that time.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
And then like the first four people that started cracked
with me were all born like within three days of
each other.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
Oh, I mean I have I mean, I got a
lot of Pissy's friends. I got some four po homies.
I have some choruses, cancers and cancers in my life.
Just okay, I'm not the astrological sign. Just talxic people
in my life.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
Just the worst.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
And then one just passive aggressive ass LEO love here
all right. My name is Jack O'Brien AKA. I tried
keV Lord to shield my heart, but in the end,
my balls were all that mattered. They had the goal

(01:56):
to shoot my balls. Bulletproof vest usefulness shattered. That is
courtesy of Rezik on the disccord in reference to but
we were recently talking about how bulletproof veests seems like
it doesn't cover up some of the more important parts
of you're heading your downstairs, heading the downtairs downstairs.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
I'm thrilled to be joined as always by my co host,
mister Miles Grass.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
This Miles Gray the Blazer's Showgun with no gun. Aka,
if you haven't gun problems, if with Befy, you's son,
I got ninety nine problems, but a gun ain't one
hit me? All right? Shout out to Christy Young Acucci
man on the discord. You know with my my father's
famous adage, why don't we have a gun in the house?
You look, you got a gun. You have gun problems there.
It does not for everybody, but sometimes a good explanation
for your kids, just to kind of Gucci Mane.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah, and Miles, we are thrilled to be joined in
our third seat by one of our favorite guests, finally
back in any expert spot.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
Fine experts seat.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
A movement lawyer, political commentator, public defender. You've read her
work on places like teen Vogue, Essence, The Nation, Senior
Commentary all over the wide Internet. You can and must
subscribe to her YouTube channel. Allurinadi please welcome back to
the show. It's the brilliant, the talented, a.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
Lot of me all.

Speaker 3 (03:20):
Thank you.

Speaker 4 (03:21):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
Oh, welcome back. Too long, been too long.

Speaker 3 (03:26):
Listen y'all made me feel like a star. Thank you,
thank you. That's what I needed today.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
I mean you are I mean every time we were like,
there's on point commentary on the certain things in the world.
Like I definitely always check your Twitter and see what
you're saying. So it's always nice to see you, you know,
and also just to see how many people are they
fuck with you.

Speaker 3 (03:42):
That makes me feel.

Speaker 4 (03:42):
My assistant said to me last week, he said, you know,
every time something happens in the subways in New York,
you seem to be in high to man.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
Yeah, I mean it's funny because when we talked about
Governor Holkle's plan to fully militarize the subway system, I
caught one of that from your So yeah, I mean
obviously there were news headlines, but you know that the
way I first came into contact, whether it was your
commentary on it, for sure, And.

Speaker 4 (04:08):
I'm happy to hear a professionally hating and hokal and
Eric Adams twenty four to seven.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
The yeah yeah one, Eric Adams.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
What is how has the Eric Adams administration been treating
you of late?

Speaker 4 (04:21):
Pretty listen, Eric, I'm getting ready to write my second
expos on Eric Adams, and I thought I had said
when I needed to in my first two hour expos
on Eric Adams, but turns out he can just keep
getting worse. But it's getting good now because they have
a federal investigation against him.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
Yeah, the news is getting hot for him. I like that.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
Yeah, yeah, amazing. So just the gift that keeps on giving,
it feels like and taking away in terms of people
quality of life, but for people, you know, paying attention,
just the entertainingly bafflingly batshit. Yeah all right, Well we're
going to get to know you a little bit better
right now, you know, later on we're going to talk

(05:00):
about copaganda, law and order, all the things that you
are so brilliant at breaking down for us, you know,
things that I grew up on just that are deep
in there unfortunately. But before we get to that, we
do like to ask our guests, what is something from
your search history that's revealing about who you are?

Speaker 3 (05:20):
Right now?

Speaker 4 (05:20):
My Google search history is filled with me searching for
all Mary Kay Nashley books that I have to buy
used because for whatever reason, they're not selling them new anymore.
And you know what's crazy, I keep trying to google
answers like why has no one else explored why Mary
Kay Nashley don't have those available? Like you could buy
the damn federalist papers, books that happened before you Like,

(05:42):
but I can't get Mary Kay Nashley books new.

Speaker 3 (05:45):
That's right, that's what I'm searching.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
Were you raised on Mary Kay Nashalie, Like, are those
nostalgis for you.

Speaker 4 (05:51):
To understand that if Mary Kay Nashley was on it,
I bought it. Okay, I wow all them books?

Speaker 3 (05:57):
Okay, I love you. I love them.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
You got the first sedition Brother for sale.

Speaker 3 (06:02):
Listen.

Speaker 4 (06:02):
I had when I had a bookcase in my room
as a kid, and it was completely just filled all
in books.

Speaker 3 (06:08):
Every time it would be like a book sale at
my school. And you know what I liked. It was
before the internet was what it was.

Speaker 4 (06:13):
It wasn't like you could just google, oh, here are
all the Mary Kay Nationally books. It was just like
it would be random new like, oh, they're on this one.

Speaker 3 (06:21):
It's the Adventures of something else. I'm getting that. I
loved Urrigay Nationally. I went up for them. Those were
my favorite two white girls in the world.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
I wasn't They were in the grade below me in
grade school at the same school, and they were never
at school. But I look, I'm like one of my
point at Pride, you know, Mary Kate had you know,
shatterye on me, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (06:39):
So, okay, look, why were they out of school? They
were too busy typing out all those novels.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, I mean because they were just like you know,
like in la like a lot of times you go
to scholick their kids who just are in the business.
They're just they're fucking working all the time. And then
they also just have set teachers, so like when they
even even when they come to school, they're like, I
don't know what the fuck is going on, man, Like
I just came here to just like see just to
let y'all know how balling we are, and then we'll
maybe see you in like another couple of months.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, the brand was real, though, you know. The thing
that I always heard was that they had like become
billionaires by the time I think we were like in
our early twenties, were.

Speaker 2 (07:18):
Bonaire.

Speaker 3 (07:19):
I definitely gave them a billion dollars. I'm telling you
me alone.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
But like I didn't know the publishing side of their empire.
I knew that they had movies, Like.

Speaker 4 (07:28):
It's such an underrated part of the empire because it
was huge. Every for fuck the movies. Like the movies,
they were going to make the books up. They had
like a little show when they were young called like
the Adventures of American Nashley, and they turned that into a
book bag every time they had and anytime they did
have a show, they would turn every episode of their
shows into one of those books. It would be the
Adventures of America and that. So listen, I grew up

(07:50):
in the Bahamas, so understand if I'm telling you, I
was giving them all my money in the Bahamas, and
there were a.

Speaker 3 (07:53):
Community of other little girls giving them all their money
on the globe, around the globe.

Speaker 4 (07:58):
They had it. I had them all every series they
had me locked into lay with like nineteen and they
just decided they didn't want to run an empire.

Speaker 3 (08:05):
No more.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
Right is boring? I'm bored with this. What was your
introduction to them like in the Bahamas? I'm curious, liked it?
Was it full house or after them?

Speaker 3 (08:17):
No?

Speaker 4 (08:17):
My mummy so my household, my daddy is Nigerian and
my mummy is this partner.

Speaker 3 (08:22):
So there was no fun and joy in my household.

Speaker 4 (08:24):
All I was allowed, all I was allowed to do
was school and read and so the only thing that
made bye. She'd never buy like video games and let
me go do anything, but she would spend a bag
in the bookstore. So I go in the bookstore, sit
on the floor and just pick things. And I liked,
you know, it was appeal was marketed to you as
a girl. So I think I got the first one,
and then I got all them, all those and lemony snickets,

(08:46):
the series of Unfortunate Events.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
I had it all. Yeah. You like, do you have
like a book you're chasing right now, like a grail
Mary Kate and Ashley booked. You're like, man, you got
to get my hands on this.

Speaker 4 (08:55):
I have like one hundred Mary Kayen n Ashley used
books sitting in my Amazon guard right now.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
It's ridiculous.

Speaker 3 (09:01):
Like I'm like, I've told myself.

Speaker 4 (09:02):
I told my boyfriend I'm buying them for our future
children as the investment. That's what I'm justifying it. I
will be so upset if my children tell.

Speaker 3 (09:10):
Me they don't like it.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
Right, and it's going to rise up like the after
the Apocalypse, Like it's going to be the Book of
Eli type thing that everybody like uses as the gospel.

Speaker 3 (09:21):
I'm waiting for them to make a bounce back. I
don't know.

Speaker 4 (09:23):
I want them to sell new books, but Mary Kay Nashley, like,
I don't even think there's a place to put pressure
on them. They just off the grid somewhere.

Speaker 1 (09:29):
They just quit us. They were like, yeah, we could
continue to like build an empire and at this point
be challenging Bezos's fortune, but we're just like it's boring
to us.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
We're gonna go.

Speaker 4 (09:42):
And that's the thing, right, because that's obviously an executive choice,
because it's one thing if they don't make new things,
but they won't even sell the old things, Like how
is a book just out everybody?

Speaker 3 (09:51):
Y'all have hundreds of books and the whole lot of print.
Why are you doing this?

Speaker 1 (09:55):
Is one of them?

Speaker 2 (09:55):
Still with the brother of Jacques Shiak.

Speaker 1 (09:59):
I have no idea.

Speaker 4 (10:00):
I remember, yeah, okay, it was not the old guy,
but I don't remember, like what came of that.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, oh no, it's Nicholas Sarkozzi's brother,
That's who it was. And I was like, what French president?
Was it? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (10:14):
The brother of Sarco money I had, Yeah, I feel
like those books, like I read every Hardy Boys book
that came out. I read like the Red Wall series
of books, and I feel like if I went back
and revisited them and read them now, I'd be like, oh,
this is like what my entire imagination is built out of.

(10:35):
It was like fabric of these and hardy boys talking about.

Speaker 4 (10:40):
My mommy loved the hardy boys. My mommy is also
a copaganda establishment democrat.

Speaker 3 (10:45):
Now people.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
They were, I feel like their story was that their
dad was a cop, and then they were like, but
that's not enough cop for one family, and so they
kind of like moonlight as they were like high school
students by day and then crime fighters by night.

Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yeah, riddled in copaganda every boy's dream. I love that.

Speaker 4 (11:05):
I find out childhood me didn't like coppaganda before she
knew it was copaganda because my mummy loved those books.
She bought me that and Nancy drew to collections and
I wasn't fucking with it. Something about me new the
ops was around, right.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
But Mary Kate Nashley solved mysteries, didn't.

Speaker 2 (11:20):
They, you know, not like you cut yours against the cars.

Speaker 4 (11:29):
And they started moving with that himes. They would make
little like new new collections would come out as they Ate.
So they had they they had the Mary Kate Nashley
Adventures America Nashley. Then they had the Starring d series,
then they had the So Little Time, and then they
had the My Sweet Sixteens.

Speaker 3 (11:44):
You see, I know too much? Yeah, I felt.

Speaker 2 (11:47):
I felt, if you have any extra copies laying around,
hit up aligning me, you know, slide it for a way,
they will go. They will be appreciated.

Speaker 3 (11:55):
Yeah, I would love that.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
What is uh, what's something you think is underrated?

Speaker 4 (11:59):
What is underrated? Probably Mary Kay Nashley. But let me
see what else? Chance the rapper. I'm gonna say chance
the rapper.

Speaker 3 (12:06):
People.

Speaker 4 (12:06):
People be going too hard on my guy after that
last album. It's really ridiculous. I'm like, you could get
people back to back hits, hits projects you did all
by yourself. They don't like one album and now they're
talking crazy on your name.

Speaker 2 (12:17):
So I Love my Wife one.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
Yeah, the last album was that I Love My Wife
one and his wife Yeah wild how much that album
disintegrated everything? Yeah, I loved that. Like Acid Wrap, I
was obsessed with the next album, Coloring Book. I was like, yeah,
like this is this is really good? And then one

(12:40):
bad album and we were off as.

Speaker 4 (12:42):
As and just disrespecting and and you know what it's
crazy is people like people still love to blame women
because they love to blame his wife, Like it wasn't
that woman the whole time, right, for all the other
albums they had a child and everything. She get married
and suddenly she used to blame for the artistic direction.

Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah. I forget which documentary it was, but Kendrick was
talking about how he was talking to like one of
the like recording industry gurus. I don't think it was
Rick Rubin. I think it was what's the what's the guy?
I made a made beats with Dre the uh and
like as a whole. He was like the Defiant Ones,

(13:22):
what's that?

Speaker 2 (13:23):
Oh, Jimmy, Jimmy Iven Jimmy I yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:28):
He like told Kendrick was like working on Damn, and
Jimmy Ivin was like, all right, so the third album
is the most important one because if you just like
absolutely nail this one, like you can do no wrong,
you have like a trilogy. And that like at the
time seemed like bullshit to me. I was like, yeah,
just like so your advice is to make the album good,

(13:49):
like yeah, no shit, man, of course that's the advice.
But but chance really proves like that third album. If
you fumble the third album, like people are gonna fucking
turn on you in a way that you're right, it
is completely unfair.

Speaker 3 (14:03):
You know what it is.

Speaker 4 (14:04):
It's not that you can't fumble the third album, it's
that you can fumble the last thing you've done right, people,
You're only as good to people as whatever your last
project is. And it's just because that's his last project.
He hasn't come up with anything else because let him
come up with another good album, they'll just stop talking
about that album.

Speaker 3 (14:18):
That's that's all. Because Kanye and I put out all
kinds of garbage over the last however many years, and people.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
Still there like checking for it my beautiful, dark.

Speaker 4 (14:27):
Twisted Fantasy. I'm like, oh, he ain't done that in
a wild babes.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
But he did nail those first three according to a
lot of people. A yeah, maybe that's but at the.

Speaker 3 (14:37):
Time they didn't believe that either.

Speaker 4 (14:38):
Remember I was carrying on about at eights Yeah, yeahs exactly.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
That's me. Do I hate it OIDs? I can't?

Speaker 4 (14:46):
Did you hate a eights?

Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah? Yeah, that was just like such an electro music
like kind of hips like this so into music. I'm like,
this is an old style bro that's been going around
with the blogs already for like two years. He's trying
to act like he came up with it, and.

Speaker 3 (14:57):
I was just basing the money I had. Wait, that
want a bob. It was a banger.

Speaker 4 (15:02):
I knew he had it when he when he got
I actually had my my my high school boyfriend at Oasis.
What inspired him to break up with me or be them?
He called me like he called me and the like
it said like in the Dad and night and was
like I was sitting up listening a Heartless by Kanye
and I decided I wasn't just gonna twiddle my thumbs

(15:23):
and deal just stuff no more. Wows many artists have
inspired a man to decide to rise up against me, to.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
Make the wrong decision. Yeah, inspires, and sometimes it inspires
the wrong you have chosen unwisely, sir, that's wild. What
what's something you think is overrated?

Speaker 4 (15:45):
Mister and missus Smith's anyone with Childish Cambino and I
hated it. It was fucking ass. It was so bad. Wow,
I you know.

Speaker 3 (15:53):
You know it's crazy, all right.

Speaker 4 (15:54):
They were already hating on it beforehand, Like before it
never came out, Twitter was hating on it because they
were like, these are this is Twitter, not me, not me,
Twitter said, Twitter said that these are ugly people and
missus Smith. Yeah right, so that's why they was Hayden.
So then when it came out and then people were like, oh,
it was actually really good. I'm thinking, oh, look at
Twitter and i'e been Hayden. Let me go watch this.

(16:15):
It was a hot sack of shit, but for entirely
different reasons, Like it wasn't it was hod because of
what these people look like the whole what kind of spot?
What is this foolishness? This is stupid.

Speaker 3 (16:27):
They running through New York City, New York City.

Speaker 4 (16:32):
Bullface, running from explosions, They on video kidnapping and this
was the stupidest. I was like, is it a spoof.
If it's a spoof, then tell me it's a spoof.
And then they have him just kind of like I said, so,
no one's gonna think childish can be those characters like pressuring,
like pushing himself on this woman. He's like, we have
a job, and in our job, we're supposed to be
fake married, so you should fuck me for real.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
I should keep it.

Speaker 4 (16:55):
You should just you should do that. I'm gonna keep
And then they had them like, I have this weird
like experience with this woman was not interested in him
as far as the actress to me was given lesbian
I was waiting for to tell him that she's not
with it, Like I thought that's where they were going
with it, right, No, suddenly they have weird this woman
who's been totally this interested with this weirdo who keeps
shuttle fucker because they have a job. They're supposed to

(17:16):
be trying to be spies, they have serious shit to do,
life threatening situations, and all he could think about is
how to fuck the woman in the crib. And then
when they have some weird mission where this guy like
kind of puts them like basically trying to force them
to sexually interact. Now suddenly because they were forced on
a mission, forced to engage in sexual contact, now she

(17:36):
wants to fucking for real.

Speaker 3 (17:37):
This is a sick, fucking show. I couldn't believe you
wrote this.

Speaker 4 (17:41):
You wrote this like and don't get me started. Then
at one point in nine, he said, what was it,
he said, child the comino was using av wrong and
it really blew me. It was one It was one
particular time me and my boyfriend paused to TV like child,
I see, I would understand if white people wrote the script.
But you you're responsible. So what is happening here, childish?

(18:02):
What's going on in the in the show? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah? What was it?

Speaker 3 (18:07):
What would he say? And what did he say?

Speaker 2 (18:09):
I have?

Speaker 4 (18:10):
I have to you know what I have is in
my group chat. As we continue, I will find it
in the group chat because me and my boyfriend texted
our friend Nigel made us watch it to curse him out,
So I'm gonna find it.

Speaker 1 (18:22):
I liked it, but the point about them not being
able to get away with what they got away, like
all the spy stuff seemed a little like under like
it was a spoof. And then it ultimately kind of
ends with that. But I thought they nailed like the
weirdness of social interactions well, and I thought they were
both good actors personally.

Speaker 3 (18:43):
They nailed breaking up I guess.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah, right, yeah, like day to day of like a
bad relationship.

Speaker 3 (18:51):
Of breaking up. But all the rest of it, none
of this ship made no sense.

Speaker 4 (18:55):
And then don't get me started on how every mission, right,
every mission where they had a white person to deal with,
to rescue, to envolu involved with when a criminal or
notdamn job was to protect them, right, every every single one.
The mission was don't kill them. The minute we see
a group of black guys sitting at the table, no
crime to be seen, just chatting with him, she fucking
blows all their brains out.

Speaker 3 (19:15):
Ain't got some shit. She has a whole thing about us.

Speaker 4 (19:18):
She's upset because he there being a misogynist or whatever,
chopping it up with the black eyes. You just murdered
a fucking room full of negroes, but y'all was protecting
the white guys every other episode. Me and my boyfriend
was outraged and I was like, Paus.

Speaker 2 (19:32):
Get this shit off the airwaves.

Speaker 1 (19:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:36):
I think it's also like because of the genre mashup,
it's like people either looked at it to a lens
of being like a spy thing, which it wasn't, or
like a rom com, which it or romantic sort of
a metaphor for like a relationship. But like the mapping
of the two like definitely too. Like towards the end,
we're like can you get away with like setting off
grenades at the fucking Whitney and then getting in a

(19:57):
full on knife fight at the high Line and then
be a little like prants your way home and then
you're like, what legal reality are we.

Speaker 3 (20:04):
Just out like this? Just like this, it's visible. I'm
just like y'all have to.

Speaker 1 (20:08):
They didn't get captured on a ring cameras after the
first episode when they like blew up that house and
where was that like Long Island?

Speaker 4 (20:16):
Also what would and where they were just running through
the streets queens it was cool, queen openly running. But
then when they had them like in the middle of
fucking Union Square, so you this would don't make no sense.
So they're supposed to be spies off the graded, nobody's
supposed to see or know them. Again, you give them
different names, but they live right there in the middle

(20:36):
of the city to be seen. And this man childish
can be no so supposed to be off the grid, Heiden,
it's just chatting it up.

Speaker 3 (20:42):
What is all fun?

Speaker 2 (20:43):
Funk?

Speaker 4 (20:43):
But he's in the Market Square?

Speaker 3 (20:45):
No, yeah, is this foolishness?

Speaker 4 (20:49):
Foolishness?

Speaker 1 (20:51):
Maybe all right, we've had that as an underrated before
and now we got the counterpoint someone was underrated. Yeah yeah,
I mean I think people, well a lot of people
like that show.

Speaker 3 (21:02):
And they're wrong for that. I don't I feel like
people talking.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
About it badly. All Right, we're going to take a
quick break and then we're going to come back and
talk about more movies and shows that are specifically giving
us the wrong idea about how the criminal justice system
works in the United States. Will be right back, and

(21:35):
we're back, and I mean, we we've talked about copaganda.
It's kind of it's like describing water to a fish
a little bit. In the United States, especially if you
grew up in like the eighties and nineties, just so
many TV shows, so many movies are fucking copaganda. Like

(21:58):
the cop like that is like a fault that Oh yeah,
well the protagon of this is gonna be a cop.
But Miles, he found a study from twenty twenty.

Speaker 2 (22:07):
There's a lot of analysis because you know, I think
in twenty twenty is when people started being like, well,
what the what the fuck are our shows saying about
the police. And at that time, you know, the study
show that like almost nearly twenty percent of scripted TV
was about cops and that didn't even include shit like
live PD or cops and not like the reality end
of the spectrum. And then another subsequent study took like

(22:27):
study nine of these scripted police shows. They found Wow,
this and this will blow you away. Those writers' rooms
zero black people show runners, zero black show runners, and
the kinds of people that were in those writers' room
were like posting shit on Twitter about lighting up protesters.
And then even Dick Wolf or I think it was
Dick Wolf had to be like, hey man, I'm sorry, Bro,
you're gonna you're gonna have to fucking bounce on this
show because you kind of too out there with your

(22:50):
opinion about how you see people in the streets. But
hey man, thank you so much for your work completely
obscuring what police do in our society. So yeah, I mean, like,
and you just the the menu of s is staggering,
Like the number of ways you can sort of interact
or intersect with some kind of narrative where it's like
and the police, you know, they're just complicated folks doing

(23:10):
their best, you know, so let's not go too hard
on them. Let's not go too hard.

Speaker 4 (23:14):
Yeah, and it don't even be just the police show.
The police shows to me, the ones that are more
blatantly obvious, like this is a police show, are actually
easier to deal with because at least I don't have
to try to convince you why that's copaganda. You could
see that, but it's baked into all the other things.
Like I was watching the Chippendale, the Chippendale Rescue Rangers movie,
which if you first of all, I never even really

(23:35):
dawned on me. The Chipendales themselves right, like they're little
police of their woodland, of their woodland world. But in
the Chippendale live action movie, the whole thing is that
they're working with their taking on the mission for the
police because the police are being held up by all
these Fourth Amendment protections. They're like, all the police can't
do the jobs, so the police go to the chipmunks
that have the chipmunks do it because all of these
fucking constituential protections and rights you're supposed to have in

(23:58):
the way, that's the whole I'm like sitting there watching it, like,
ain't that the pitch.

Speaker 3 (24:03):
Look at this?

Speaker 1 (24:04):
Or I was watching a new one, the one, Yeah, the.

Speaker 4 (24:07):
New one, the live action Go watch it. It's crazy yeah,
that's what happens in the live action or even if
you look at. Me and my boyfriend talk about this
a lot because he's a he loves Spider Man and
the Spider Verse. And I went on and watched the
second one, and I was I went with my friend
alex Elo all overruled on TikTok who's also a PD,
and he he he. We were just both like, what

(24:28):
is this? So Spider Man is like they have it
and specifically Spider Man would otherwise stringing all over the place,
but suddenly he needs to take the subway just so
he could stop and you could see the subway station
stops for which areas in Brooklyn, which Black dabuds they
were choose in, and just having him fight crime there
and then leave.

Speaker 3 (24:46):
Go back on me. I'm like, look at this ship,
look at it, look at it?

Speaker 1 (24:51):
Is that that's the second one, the Tom Holland.

Speaker 3 (24:53):
Yeah, no, no, the Spider Verse.

Speaker 4 (24:57):
No with Black Spider Man's Oh that's oh yeah, yeah,
relentless NYPD promo. The amount of NYPD cars in that
in that Spider versus crazy.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
I was watching Zootopia with my kids recently, like that
is wild copaganda. Just yeah, like the protagonist just all
she wants to do for her whole life is be
a cop, even though people don't think she can be
because she's too small.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
And then she yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
I mean it's just like every eighties crime movie, like
partners with like a wily criminal and then they like
kind of you know, figures it out. But like Zootopia,
I would I wouldn't have even really thought about it
that much until you watch it. Paw Patrol we've talked
about on the show. Absolutely capaganda the worst.

Speaker 4 (25:50):
Those those to me, those kinds of shows and stuff
are the worst because especially when people like the Cara like,
people will think it's not topaganda if they like a
car or something, if they like it, right, That's the
thing with Spider Man. I'm like, that's what makes it bad.
Like all the other things bad copaganda, is that it's
effective that all the other things you like about it.
This animation is amazing that they gave you a black kid.

(26:12):
You know, it's not lost upon me that they gave
you a black Spider Man. And they said his dog,
his daddy's gonna be NYBD, his best friend's daddy gonna
be NYBD.

Speaker 3 (26:20):
We gonna have invite, Like that's what it is.

Speaker 4 (26:22):
And so yeah, those men are more harmful than even
the cop shows. It's when you think you're not watching copaganda,
because at least you could go into a cop show,
which you're like Antenna's up. But if you think you're
gonna go watch your cartoon, you're gonna go watch Lucifer
and all these things, and they find a way to be.

Speaker 3 (26:36):
Cops, shoots, even charmed.

Speaker 4 (26:38):
Why are the witches, Why are fucking witches and wizards
working with the police. Why do they need the police assistance?
They are working with the police. They had they had
what's her name, pru was in a relationship with a cop.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
Wow, you know, just for her safety, I guess, or
not safety. It's very hard to tell. The one thing too,
about Miles Morales, that character, his dad's name is Jefferson Davis.
You're like the president of the Confederacy. It's just a coincidence, man,
his dad Davis. Like, let's also throw that in there
for our history, buffs. But like I think also too,
like I think about like New York Undercover. I think

(27:12):
that's when the Dick Wolfe's most underrated contributions to copaganda
like the and for the entire genre, because he took
two detectives of color and put it's like, hey, for
the hip hop generation, look at this, we got we
got the we got it like a Latino detective, a
black detective, and we will even cast rappers in the show,
you know. And I remember that disarmed. That was so

(27:33):
disarming for me because I was like, oh shit, like
this rappers and they're okay, cool, this is cool.

Speaker 1 (27:37):
Oh what are they trying to do?

Speaker 2 (27:38):
You know what?

Speaker 1 (27:39):
You know?

Speaker 2 (27:39):
Because like now kids that were like raised on here
in NWA and fuck the police or public enemy are like, well,
you know, Detective Williams and Detective Torre is like they
all right though.

Speaker 3 (27:47):
Yeah, that's how it works in real life, right, Like
that media media is replicating a strategy that they use
in our politics in real life. That's why Eric Adams
is a cop, right, The mayor in New York City
is a cop, the biggest cop, the lover of NYPD.

Speaker 4 (27:59):
But that's what makes him so dangerous is because they're
able to advertise him. He calls himself, he calls himself
the hip hop Mayor. He brings a bunch of rappers around,
even though he actively criminalizes hip hop music like declaire
the war, Declaire war on drill music and rap music
like days after he took office.

Speaker 3 (28:14):
But people aren't That's not what they're hearing.

Speaker 4 (28:16):
What they're getting presented to them is a black guy
putting on airings telling them you know, yeah, and that's
why it's.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
Bad, right, And he's like, Hey, I'm at the after parties,
you know what I mean. You see me in the
background celebrating to launch of this new Chase credit card.

Speaker 4 (28:28):
You're like, because it allows people, it affords people of protection, right,
Because then people get to say, oh, it can't be racist,
or it can't be a problematic or whatever has you
because you have this diverse, this marginalized persons as the
avatar for it, when in reality, that's the whole thing
with systemic systemic institution. Once you put you diversify a
systemically racist institution, what happens is those diverse members have

(28:52):
to go even harder about punishing theirrow when people to
prove themselves to that system.

Speaker 2 (28:56):
And then ah, yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
Mean that point about hit like Dick Wolf taking like
putting rappers in his show, Iced Tea, who was like,
when I was a kid, was at the center of
a controversy about like having a song about killing cops
and then the thing he's mainly known for now is

(29:20):
playing a cop on TV.

Speaker 3 (29:22):
And his politics have moved that way too, right, But like, yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:26):
It's just capitalism is so insidious like that. You know,
we talk about capitalism being the singularity that everybody was
afraid of, where it's like it gets smarter and more
advanced than any single human mind can conceive of. Like
that's just if you if you had a million years
to map out. Okay, So how are we going to

(29:48):
deal with this swelling from like actual people who are struggling,
who don't have enough to eat and who are living
victimized by police and creating this music that really connects
with people. Like the idea of like taking them and
putting them in the most powerful copaganda like is so insidious,

(30:12):
But it's not. It's not a thing that like any
one mastermind had to come up with. It's just like
the forces of capitalism and the media just like kind
of put that shit together, you.

Speaker 3 (30:22):
Know exactly, And it's funy.

Speaker 4 (30:24):
You should bring up Iced Tea because it was Iced
Tea that actually declared Eric Adams the hip hop mayor
of New York City.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
I mean it's my first episode on my show.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
I think a lot of people like because we've talked
about on the show, we've had you while, we've had
we've you know, had alec Errick Sanas on and talking
about these issues. I think a lot of people are
pretty well like they they're able to recognize like the
cop of the copaganda element pretty well. But another thing
that I hear you talk about in many others is
not it's not just the cop part, it's also the

(30:54):
law proganda as well.

Speaker 4 (30:57):
Yeah, like kapaganda isn't just about when people hear it,
they think of it as just police, but it's what
it is. Copaganda refers to anyway like the media tries
to feed you or indocrinate you into supporting policing or
or prisons in policing, that's what it is. Anything that
essentially essentially reiterates a cops narrative, what a cop would
want you to think about of a situation. So it's

(31:17):
like they want People will say, they're like, you'll tell
them law an artists kind of copaganda, and they'll act
like it's not because it shows Stabler doing legal things,
and it's like, that's the fucking point. You love Stabler,
It should you you spin it gives it feeds you
a show where you love him, you watch him, you
you recognize why this character does this, and you see
it as necessary or you come to to see it

(31:37):
as normal. There's a reason why if you watch, if
you watch shows all the time, you're you're in law
and order.

Speaker 3 (31:42):
Is is the influences, uh, cannot be understated.

Speaker 4 (31:47):
But so if you take a law and order, if
you watch for for years, it become a normal part
of policing. That the police you love, who you believe
are just the are trying, they want to do the
right thing, and their intentions are so good, and you
watch them regularly be aggressive or beat up people as
a real Why police brutality is the narrative of police
brutality is only ever when someone dies, but never just
the regular aggression and abuse that we see as a

(32:07):
regular part of policing.

Speaker 3 (32:08):
No one thinks anything about you.

Speaker 4 (32:09):
You see police roughing people up, and you don't think
of that as brutality or illicit. You think of that
as that's policing, and that's normal to you, right, Yeah, can.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
You talk to just a little bit too, because I
think the one part that I wasn't always wrapping my
head around was how like the prosecution element of it
works because while the police are the people on the
street this harmful system, it continues through the actual like
judicial system and things like that. And I think that's
another part that like when you watch a law and order,
you're like, oh, okay, so like they get mad when

(32:39):
like they take a plea deal. They're like, oh, he
got away because like he pled out. It's like, oh,
it's a loophole that these people are are like you know,
at being able to abuse or whatever.

Speaker 3 (32:47):
But came out.

Speaker 4 (32:48):
Prosecutors love plea deals more than anybody else. Like they're
the ones, like they they want plea deal. They're the
ones they weaponize plea deals and cash bail in order
to get convictions that they otherwise would and get.

Speaker 3 (33:00):
They're the ones that do that.

Speaker 4 (33:01):
So whatever, what often happens in the criminal system is
police someone someone will be arrested, take for example, like
a homeless person or someone with mental health issues who
has a long rap sheet, because that's what the media
likes to sensationalize what happens.

Speaker 3 (33:13):
How they end up with that long rap sheet.

Speaker 4 (33:14):
Is say they'll arrest somebody for something, something petty that
shouldn't even be criminal or whatever. They'll arrest a homeless
person because they can. And then what will happen even
though this case would if this, if this were a
case against me or you, the case would end up
being thrown out or resolve some other way. Would not
end in a criminal conviction under any circumstances. But what
they'll say to the homeless person or the person with
mental health issues, or someone who they know don't have

(33:36):
any resources.

Speaker 3 (33:37):
They'll say, plead to the charge.

Speaker 4 (33:39):
You can plead to the charge and be released now,
or we'll set cash bail on you and you have
to go to Rikers while this case is open, you know,
So someone wanting to go to Rikers for e period
of time, they will plead to the charge, so they'll
take the and then that keeps happening, and now they
have this long criminal sheet that could be weaponized against them.
But what happens with a coppaghandam when it comes to
prosecutors is first of all, a thing a miracle of

(34:00):
to do.

Speaker 3 (34:00):
In general is America likes to discard parts. So it
can preserve the whole. It will Curtis America, will allow
you to criticize police, or it will feed you a
narrative about private prison so that you don't criticize prisons
in general overall, or you don't criticize the criminal system overall.
So police or who the narrative gets rested on, you know,
they never let it get past police. So people go, oh,
police are bad, Police do this, Police do these things,

(34:22):
but they never recognize that it's the prosecutors who have
to carry that out right. So and also how copaganda
I think really is really really probably one of the
most harmful things it does is it encourages people to
talk to the police throughout across all mediums of copaganda,
all the different top shows or shows that are not
even about cops, and they just happen to have that
kind of scene it they always have where people are

(34:43):
faced with the stillm of talking to the police. Talking
to the police, they're negotiating with the police about their case.
In real life, the police don't have shit to do
but your case. Police make the arrest, and then you're
dealing with a prosecutor and a criminal system. The police
will just be witnesses. At most in the case, they
have nothing to do with what would deal you end
up with or what you even get charged with.

Speaker 2 (35:02):
But the shows are always like, hey, man, you talk
to me, you know you come you come clean to me.
I'll make sure, I'll make sure this isn't messy for you,
just for a lawyer, and right well, and also you
also fed this thing too, Like if you watch shows
like Dateline and stuff that are about like you know,
like murder cases and things like that, the detective will

(35:24):
always be like, the second they asked for a lawyer,
I knew they were guilty, you know what I mean.
And it also feeds this thing to to sort of like,
you know, create the subtext that like actually exercising your
rights makes you more suspicious and maybe you are actually
because why wouldn't all the or all the true crime.

Speaker 3 (35:39):
And you know what I think is so funny.

Speaker 4 (35:40):
Every every true crime you go and watch is about
some case where the police fail to do ship right,
like every single one. And that's somehow, yes, but they
will somehow and what is very obviously policing failure. The
whole thing is about policing failure. The argument will be
how the police like they their arms were tied by

(36:03):
some bullshit that their arms were not tied by by
Oh they didn't have this, they didn't have that, and
it will become this like indictment of the defense. So
people have been rights so or blah blah blah, rather
than the fact that the fucking police don't do shit right.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
Yeah, yeah, the law and order thing is so insidious,
like you just you don't get to follow a single
criminal prosecution anywhere else, like from arrest through trial, and
like it really feels like, you know, the thing we
know about Hollywood is like they they like an underdog story.
There's this massive like machine that is swallowing up innocent

(36:40):
people and just making them disappear from their everyday lives.
And we never really see like how that machine actually works.

Speaker 4 (36:50):
It's just Yeah, A big, a big aspect of copaganda
that doesn't get talked about in all these shows is
the investigation because in real life there is none, Like,
there is none, There is no fucking investigation. All these
shows show you police just fucking beating their heads in
trying to get to the bottom of something. Police don't
solve no fucking crime. What happens in real life. Is

(37:11):
someone accused of something of something, the police arrests them
and what they knew at raiments is the case with
the information you got, Like, they don't go trying to
figure something out. No one is on a quest to
get to the bottom of it. Also, another thing calapaganda
does is it makes defense. It reinforces this idea that
the only people who are deserving of representation or can
be victims in a criminal system, or who are innocent

(37:32):
or what have you, right, because they'll always have defense attorneys.
They'll paint defense attorneys is these people who believe their
clients are innocent or who are either stumb who know
that they're representing these bad, terrible, evil people they're getting
out and they're rich for doing it, or they're naive
and think that they're innocent and they're on a quest
to find out that their client is innocent, to confirm

(37:52):
that their client is innocent or otherwise they can represent them.

Speaker 3 (37:55):
I just watched Tyler Perry s a movie. Oh Jesus,
Tyler Perry.

Speaker 4 (37:58):
I just watched Tyler Perry move just the other night
where he had it where this defense attorney is supposed
to be representing this guy accused the murder, and all
she's spending her time trying to do is trying to
like undermine the story, trying to find out whether or
not he's he's innocent, and then once she thinks he's guilty,
she quits, What the fuck?

Speaker 3 (38:14):
That don't have nothing to do with the pras of
Tea in China, like you have to represent him? Like
what are we doing like that?

Speaker 4 (38:20):
That has nothing to do with nothing, but that's how
it paints it to you. So the defense are automatically
made up to be bad people on the side of
bad or otherwise, if they weren't on the side of bad,
if they would, if these were people who deserved they
would be washing their hands in this case, or they
would what they love to do in copaganda's have a
defense attorney quit and become a prosecutor.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
They love that.

Speaker 2 (38:38):
But that's say the light after this.

Speaker 4 (38:41):
They did that in Lucifer, they actually had they and
Lucifer a show about the devil, about Satan.

Speaker 3 (38:48):
Satan.

Speaker 4 (38:49):
They have Satan himself come to earth and the only
way for Satan to reconcile himself with God is to
work with Lapd and the worst person he in contact
with they say, is the defense attorney who in order
for her to make it to heaven, she had to
become a prosecutor.

Speaker 1 (39:09):
Is that real?

Speaker 3 (39:09):
That's what the fuck happened in that show.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (39:12):
Imagine you're me thinking you're gonna go and watch a nice,
wholesome show about the devil and you get nothing but copaganda.
It's like wow.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
Even here, it's like, well, why are the lapd the
arbiters of who gets into okay whatever?

Speaker 4 (39:24):
All the fucking lapd in the show a corrupt they have,
like really like corrupt, But somehow that's not the problem
they had, Like the wife of the man cop that
he works with, the husband of the man cop that
he works with, ex husband is a whole crooked cop
doing all kinds of shit, and they have his real
moral dilemma to be Like when he's dating the prosecutor,
I say, ain't this a bout a bitch?

Speaker 2 (39:45):
Right? It's it's just wild, like how the effects of
the the you know, obviously copaganda helps is like pr
for the legal system and police and things like that,
and help support like the biggest myths we have, Like
so you know, it's completely just Dad's our ability to
think critically because if you go like like, I wonder, man,
are police are they a threat to marginalize communities? You're like, no, no, no, man,

(40:06):
because I've seen TV and most of them are just
good and you know some of them are just going
through stuff like the characters on the shows, or what
if can they do like more with less money. It's like, well, no,
absolutely not, because they're the only thing that keeps us
in our society from fully devolving into the purge. And
then on the other side too, it completely we have
no idea actually how the legal system works, so if
you actually begin to interact with it, you're like, well,

(40:27):
based on what I've seen, I don't I don't know
if I have rights or maybe I should talk to
the police, or do I go to trial? Because you
don't you also don't see the part about how coercive,
like the whole plea deal thing is in real life,
where they're like, hey, man, if you actually look if
you go to trial, like you're looking at twenty five
to life, but or they make it feel like.

Speaker 4 (40:45):
That's what good aggressive policing is, right like when Stabler
and these people are blowing down on these people and
being real aggressive and confrontationalless to those on the shows,
they act like that's what's needed, That's that's what tough
on crime is, right, Like tough on crime as a
whole concept. Law and order, which Republicans speak all the
time long art, is an actual term they use twenty
four to seven. So it's like a coincidence, like what
law and order is and what that is, Like it's

(41:06):
a it's a direct correlation.

Speaker 1 (41:08):
Yeah, And just going back to the true crime point,
like we find you find out these staggering lapses and
police werek Like we talked about that serial killer in
Long Island who was on the loose for like a decade,
and they had a description of his like extremely rare
car from like one of his first crimes, and it

(41:30):
was like he lived like blocks away from it, and
they like knew this a whole time. They just like
didn't chase it down. Like it's just they don't because
it was a while. Yeah, they don't give a fuck.

Speaker 3 (41:40):
They don't, like they literally don't give a fuck.

Speaker 4 (41:43):
Like it's funny, like people who so believe in policing
and believe police solve crime don't be to people who
have experienced having to try to you ask the police
to solve a fucking crime like you've obviously never called
the beliefs if you believe that they solve shit, like
you know what happened. So when I when I a
year ago, my TV got stolen, right, I ordered a
new TV and I left it in the hallway, right.

(42:04):
And I left it in the hallway because I was like, oh,
I my guys come in and mounted in the morning.
I don't feel like carrying it up the stairs. Wrong decision.
The minute I left to go to the gym. Clearly
some girl who live in my building told her boyfriend
to come jack this TV. It's very clear to me
that this was happened. And I know this because I
have proof.

Speaker 3 (42:22):
Now.

Speaker 4 (42:22):
Anyhow, I'm not the ops and I'm a defense attorney,
so I have no interest whatever you lost a TV like,
they took to tv Amazon and replaced that. For me,
I have no interest in getting I don't care nothing
about nothing. But what I think is interesting is that
even if I did want them to go to jail,
let me take you out. The police don't give a
fuck about nothing. Right Because Amazon, I go to Amazon
to put in that I need a new TV. Because
my TV was shacked. Amazon goes, oh, you'd have to

(42:44):
you have watch out the police state works, right. Amazon goes,
you have to file a police report in order to
get the for us to give you a replacement. Right,
so you gotta call the police. My landlord, I tell
my landlord my TV was stolen. My landlord goes and
gets the security footage and shows me the.

Speaker 3 (43:00):
Guys stealing my TV. Like, oh, seamless too.

Speaker 4 (43:04):
It was excellent. I couldn't even mean I was excellent.
It was very clear they had their eyes on that
TV all day. The minute I left that building, someone
texted them.

Speaker 3 (43:12):
They buzzed.

Speaker 4 (43:12):
They came in with their face masks, COVID protection. They
came in with their face masks, and they literally they
picked up the TV. Like walk right out the door.
You can see them. You can fully see the people.
The polices ain't even ask.

Speaker 3 (43:25):
They don't give a fuck.

Speaker 4 (43:26):
They were like, they know I have a video. They
were like, yeah, so anyway, that's what you needed, right something,
didn't ask, didn't didn't get the video. They were like, real,
right that you had a video, didn't look at it,
didn't look at it, didn't ask me to be sent nothing.
The other day, there were two little girls. I was
walking in my neighborhood and there were two little girls running,
a seven year old and a four year old running
through the street, and I'm like, what the fuck, where

(43:47):
are their parents and stuff? So and then I see
them run to this white lady, and me and this
white lady end up going on and spending the quest
the rest of the evening trying to find where these
little girls came from. Right, one is seven and one
is four. The seven year old's bad ass was in
on it. The seven year old snuck them out of
the Like when when the people at the day care,
and I'd figured her out at the daycare, turned their back.

(44:08):
She took the little four year old and she went running.
She wanted to go to her little friend's house, and
she don't know where she's going. She is seven, but
she's not trying to go back, so she won't help us,
So she's like actively leading us in the wrong direction.
Spend hours a little four year olds who didn't anyway.
When I finally get these little girls back to back
to the house as the police are coming outside to us,

(44:29):
they're fen police inside the house just looking at these
people for hours, like I don't know where the kids
is or whatever, hadn't gone searching around the neighborhood. Nothing right,
I returned to kids. They did not even They didn't
take my name, they didn't talk to me. They didn't
make it not a statement, not a check for how
the fuck did they know? I didn't snap the I
didn't like take those little girls. They didn't know that

(44:50):
anyway they'd come from, if something had happened to them,
how they know?

Speaker 3 (44:53):
They don't know that, but they ain't.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
Check because they shit, Yeah, it could be a lot
of work if we have to look into this. So
I'm just gonna say, yeah, cool, thanks, I promise you.

Speaker 4 (45:03):
Literally I had to like volunteer, like like trying to
tell them like, hey, this is what happened.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
Is weird.

Speaker 4 (45:08):
This one was that I did not give them.

Speaker 3 (45:10):
It was just looking. They'd been in the house for hours,
just looking at them. Mothers cry like just like this.

Speaker 4 (45:15):
They weren't even like outside, like they weren't controlling the
neighborhood or anything.

Speaker 3 (45:19):
They were just more and I'm coming just looking house
like I don't know where the kids are?

Speaker 2 (45:24):
Got some more of this food?

Speaker 3 (45:25):
Like we were walking around the same neighborhood in broad
day like to like falling.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
All right, let's uh, let's take a quick break. We'll
come back and talk about some more of how this
ship works. We'll be right back, and we're back. And
one thing that we like to talk about on the

(45:52):
show is just like selection bias, like where you just
see when they suddenly start reporting every instance of shopping lifting,
even though shoplifting is like going down broadly across the country,
it's going to seem to people like, oh my god, yeah,
poor poor people are out of control.

Speaker 4 (46:12):
They and you know, it's funny that was all debunked,
like they spent all the twenty twenty and twenty twenty
one doing all of that, all the own rise in shoplifting,
rise in shoplifting, and when they finally put out all
their articles, oh because like I think it was Walgreens
that admitted that they had overblown these figures and all
this different stuff. But even regardless, not only is it
a lie, like a lot of like this colropaganda is
just lying. It's just literally lying to create mass hysteria

(46:33):
so people feel like there's a lot of crimes, so
people feel unsafe regardless of what the actuality is. But
even if it wasn't, let's say it wasn't. Let's say
it was a bunch of people's shoplifting. How what Let's
ask why, Like they are in a global pandemic. If
there was a fucking pandemic, people lost their jobs, places
closed down, all of this and the next thing America.

(46:54):
Most Americans that are actually that are in debt are
in medical debt in this country. So imagine a global
pandemic the mind with a country of people who don't
have healthcare and in medical debt and losing their job,
might there be a reason they would shoplift?

Speaker 2 (47:07):
Right right? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, no, no, we don't survival
crime that look, no, no, no, these people are out
of control. And that's why I look, we need the police,
need tank money, they need.

Speaker 4 (47:19):
They need drones, they need robot dogs, and they need
robots in the National Guard in the subways.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
Right exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:26):
But and in America, obviously property crime. You want to
see like what that things aren't adding up in the
American consciousness, Like the way that they Americans respond to
property crime as opposed to you know, physical endangerment of
people or physical harm to people. Is you know, it's

(47:49):
I think there's like a dissonance where the American mind
conflates spiritual value for people having more stuff and so
like that, you know, shoplifting specifically gets at that and
like causes them to like short wire.

Speaker 4 (48:07):
You know, it's this idea that the haves like, they
have an idea but the haves and the have nots,
and it's that the haves deserve to have they have
because it's what they're deserving, and the have nots don't deserve,
and that's why I don't have it. So who the
fuck are these undeserving have nots to take my hard
earned deserve shit, which is usually shit that they do
not have, because it's usually the have nots like loudly

(48:27):
defending the halves because they believe that they could one
day have and they rather relate to the potential of
being the halves than their reality, which is that their
the have nots.

Speaker 3 (48:36):
Is this rough?

Speaker 1 (48:37):
Yeah. The other place we see selection bias is just
like you know, well, with scripted TV, like we're only
seeing even though it's much more common for underprivileged people
to be kind of pulled into this massive machine and
like just unfairly removed from their lives, from the lives
of their loved ones, a true underdog tail that is

(49:00):
supposedly what like TV and movies like that, we we
don't get those stories. We just get stories of Yeah, Miles,
like you said that, the police are humanized like if
they if they fuck up, it's because they're having a
bad day. That's who we learn to make excuses for.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
There's never one where it's like, oh I could I
could understand why this person who is completely even marginalized
by society has like has a different set of financial
recourses available to them. For other people, it's more like.

Speaker 4 (49:27):
And even even though they choose to try to highlight
it a kind of crimes, right like think about it.
The most popular law and order is law and order.
Ask for you, like, there's a reason for that, right
Like sexually sexually heinous crimes. Anybody who's ever been the
victim of sexual any kind of sexual crime, be the
first person and tell you that that's the that's the
thing the criminal system gives the least of a fuck about.
That's the first thing the police are going to tell
you to get out their face for it. They don't

(49:48):
probably like those are are are widely, under under prosecuted,
under dealt with all these different things by comparison to
other things, and they make up the minority of what's
in the criminal system. You could represent a thousand people
and never have a sex crime, but you wouldn't know
that if you have law and order asked for you.

Speaker 3 (50:02):
And all these kinds of shows.

Speaker 4 (50:04):
Laurnata wouldn't be so popular if that every episode was
based on what is the everyday case.

Speaker 3 (50:08):
In the criminal system. If it was just an episode
like some kid.

Speaker 4 (50:11):
Was yelling at his mom and his mom called the
police for the police to talk to him, and they
arrested him and said an issue to order protection out
in court. Or some family was fighting, or some neighbor
or you banged on your neighbor's door and now they
called the police and they charged you with criminal mischief.
Like that's the kind of thing that's actually happening every
day in New York's legal system. And I think that's
the thing that crimes my care about lawen Arder and
specific is I work in New York, so I'm like,

(50:33):
I know this.

Speaker 3 (50:34):
Is very this is not a condoms that didn't work
in this city. Is like, it's a criminal journey.

Speaker 4 (50:40):
That's not what's in the system at all, and from
either level, Like when I was in law school, I
interned at the DA's office just to fucking see.

Speaker 3 (50:47):
Just confirm what I already know. So I'm like, you
ain't gonna tell me no.

Speaker 2 (50:51):
Different, right, Yeah. And it's interesting too because like, yeah,
you're not gonna see in these shows, they're never gonna
be like, hey, you know, actually felling these crimes down,
and it's been down on a continuum. But it's like,
to your point, but misdemeanors have gone way up, and
is that like just sort of a way like is
that just sort of a response in like from policing
to be like, well, people got it, Like we need
to touch more people.

Speaker 4 (51:12):
So I guess the vast majority of what's in the
criminal system are misdemeanors and like traffic offenses and non
violent you know, in fractions and things like that. That's
what that's what is the majority of what's in the
system in the first place, they're not the majority of
things aren't felonies. And even if you look at a
place like New York City of what our felony is,
because which is way less than everything else it's a
very tiny portion. Most of those don't plead out or

(51:32):
get resolved as felonius. So that's it's literally the least
violent crime and feloniese and make up the least portion
of crime. But you would not know that if you
let the media sell it.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
Right right, Yeah, like you'd think that's all that's happening
all the time, for sure. Yeah, it's the selection. Like
it's not that they're making up crimes that don't happen.
They're just showing you the most violent ones and making
it seem like that is all you know. They don't
they don't have to lie. They just have to zoom
in on a very rare thing and make it seem like,

(52:06):
oh that this this shit happens all the time, and
they build a world where everybody's scared and willing to
give money, unlimited money to the police.

Speaker 3 (52:14):
What you see most in the criminal system are everyday
situations either being made criminal, either by the people themselves,
by by by by mistake, or or the criminal system
getting involved. But what often what I see most of
the time are are people having dispute to one another,
like they fight with their roommate, they don't like their
roommate or whatever. So they decide to get into a
curse out with their room mate, they decide to call
the police in their roommate and not our roomate, arrest

(52:36):
somebody and not as order protections and they and a
whole bind or it's usually things like that.

Speaker 4 (52:41):
It's just like interactions between people. They gotten, they into
it in the street or whatever have you, or someone
or someone someone's arguing and the police hear it, so
they come and they arrest them. More well, just things
like that, but it's not these sensational Your average case
is just not something sensational at all.

Speaker 3 (52:57):
It just isn't.

Speaker 4 (52:57):
And even a lot of the times too, what doesn't
get taughtalked about? The police and copaganda weaponizes victims victims
stories without ever wanting to actually hear from victims because
most of the people that you deal with in criminal
system do not want this resolved that way. The ones
that are the victims or the complainants are not trying
to proceed but the case. And when I when I
worked at the I worked interns for the DA's office
in law school, what they would do and specifically the

(53:19):
DV unit, it would be a lot of they would
charge people, and the complainant, who who is the complainant
or the victim in the case, is actively there like
I don't want this case. I don't want a Kim
criminal case. And a lot of the times the kid
would be like this is usually somebody they have a
relationship with.

Speaker 3 (53:34):
In DV.

Speaker 4 (53:35):
They'd be like, I want them to get counseling, or
I want them to get therapy, or I want them
to get some other thing. And the court and this
is how they tricked them. They would tell them, oh,
we can't do that, we can't do that, and less
you sign this sign a supportant a position and agree
to move forward with the case, and that's how we
all offer them. Meanwhile, that's not what's gonna What they
want to do is just sign a supportant a position
so we could tell the court that this case is converted,

(53:56):
that you've agreed for us to proceed and caned prosecute number.
That's not with the conversation that they had with the complainant, right, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
It feels like overall the big picture dynamic here is
that they show us the worst case scenario, like our
copaganda scripted shows show us when a police the police
are running into a situation, you can damn well guarantee
that situation is going to be fucked up and it's
going to put them in danger and like that, even

(54:24):
though like that's worse than ninety nine percent of the
situations police are actually running into. And then so it's
not surprising that when we like when decisions have to
be made about like how to deal with conflicts, and
these are like everyday conflicts, just disputes between people we've

(54:44):
seen before that like these community level actions where it's
like no, you just have like people who live in
the neighborhood who are deputized to just go and like
be a person to these people and like help them.
That works much better. But because what we're seeing is
the kapaganda and the worst case scenario, we're responding to

(55:04):
every situation with the worst case scenario.

Speaker 4 (55:07):
And that's what the community is ask and in real life,
the communities asks for community response. They asks for violence
intervention and violence intervention methods, ask for counseling, asks for
these kinds of things. And what happens is you get
mayors like Eric Adams who are going to fund the
community initiatives and put more money into the policing and
then say and then and then presented to the public
that already believes as this manufactured consent into this idea

(55:29):
that policing is the only way to respond to crime,
and that victims because they're watching nothing but copaganda all day.
And then they tell them these are what the victims need.
We care about the victims. These old, big bad advocate
all these advocates just want people loose. They don't care
about crime, they don't care about the community, they don't
live in the community.

Speaker 3 (55:43):
YadA, YadA, YadA. That's what they come up with.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
Yeah, how do you feel about just the state of
the the state of copaganda and the public's willingness to
you know, it felt like at some points there were
strides that were being made in terms of people being
aware that the police are not an effective way of
dealing with most communities. But then there's also been this

(56:09):
mainstream media narrative where like I remember one of Alec
CARRICKTT Sanus's email newsletters was about the way that random
quotes get used in copaganda, and like this NPR article
where they just quote a neighborhood kid being like, uh, yeah, man,
People are like more willing to carry guns now and

(56:31):
that's why more people are getting shot. And then defund
the police, as he puts it. And yeah, you know,
Alex was pointing out, we never defunded the police. First
of all, they are at all time highs right now.
But the way that the like the mainstream narrative came
down to us was police got defunded and crime went up.

Speaker 3 (56:53):
It's really infuriated. How to get to lie? Yeah, yeah,
you just get they get to bold.

Speaker 4 (56:57):
Like. That's the thing that's so infuriating, right is when
you're when you're an advocated gangst policing and mass incarceration,
you could be a whole expert, you can be an attorney, you.

Speaker 3 (57:04):
Can be whatever.

Speaker 4 (57:05):
You have to cite every fucking word you say. You
have to cite every word. Meanwhile, they can just bull
face lie and even when people even when they are lying,
just lying and being caught in lies. The best you
could get people to do is call it misinformation. They
never call it what it is, which is a just
lying manufacturing things all the time. But I would say this,

(57:25):
people have been that's not new, right, like coppaganda. It
has been when people are fed and indoctrinated to believe
in so many ways. It's not even just like shows
and media in terms. At this point, we have generations
and generations and generations and generations of people that have
been raised in this world that believes that and has
to reinforce in so many respects. I mean, just down
to being a lot kid and you play cops and robbers,
you know what I mean, It's a regular game who's

(57:46):
the good, who's the bad?

Speaker 3 (57:47):
Right, Like, That's what it is.

Speaker 4 (57:48):
So when you think about that, in the magnitude of
the problem and just how deep it goes, I think
we are the fact that we even have people where
that are regularly critiquing it at all, that there is
even a quite the fact that is even a term,
you know what I mean, that people can embrace, and
there is a world of there's at least becoming an
anti like an antithesis to this.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
This true crime propaganda movement is us moving, moving, incredibly,
moving so much forward. I don't think I don't think
there's a reason to be deterred, but to feel like
it's getting worse because I would not expect that from
twenty twenty to twenty twenty four, in four years that
we would have undone like one hundred years of being
you know what I mean fed support the state.

Speaker 1 (58:30):
Sure, yeah, I mean and that just the wild irony
is that the thing that like in retrospect, the statistical
analysis of what caused some place that some locations that
have a spiking crime during the pandemic was the freezing
of like these community based programs that right were actually

(58:51):
that are actually effective. That are the thing that like
if you do a very small spend on those like
as opposed to the massive number of resources that are
being demanded by the police for yes, in response to
people just suggesting that they maybe be funded a little less.

Speaker 4 (59:10):
What I find frustrating for me is that why when
crime like the whole not only do they manufacture crime
waves right like they pretend they manufacture them, but less
pretend it even is true. Why is that not an
indictment of them. I'll never understand why when crime is up,
people act like that's that's becomes the plight of people
like me. Never once, nowhere, ever have they ever enacted

(59:32):
my policy once. There's no place in America that has said, ah,
let's defund the police and reinvest in the community.

Speaker 3 (59:38):
Is and make that what we do.

Speaker 4 (59:39):
That's not that's not what they do everywhere. If you're
looking at a place like New York City, I don't know,
that's not why it's crime. People who want to at me,
excuse me. We have the biggest police department in the country.
There's thirty six thousand and up. They have eleven billion dollars. Okay,
so if someone's fucking up, it's them, right Yo, what
are they trying the same thing?

Speaker 2 (59:54):
No?

Speaker 4 (59:55):
So that's what I wish is I wish that people
would look at them feeling unsafe. If you feel unsafe
or you feel like crime is a problem, who is
that the fault of if not the people that you
have put in charge of and the methods you've been trying.
And people will tell you they care so so much
about crime, but yet all they ever want to do
is do exactly what they've been doing, because they'll be
like someontime this to me today, like, oh, all that

(01:00:16):
you're saying might be true, but people speak people. People
are scared. They need something done now. First of all,
just because you want an overnight solution doesn't mean there.

Speaker 3 (01:00:24):
Is one crime.

Speaker 4 (01:00:26):
Crime and crime, poverty and the systemic realities and the
root causes of crime didn't just happen overnight. They'll these
things have been being put into place for generations, in
a long period of time. And the same way you
were willing to invest, you're willing to keep trying police,
keep trying to invest in that. You will invest in
police every year. That's not a problem, and you act
to you, that's a full proof idea. That is an
expansive idea. Just give more money to the police. But

(01:00:47):
if I say give more money to the community, suddenly
that's some fucking radical mythical shit, right, right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And there's no and nothing empirically to
suggest that all this money being spent is actually rendering
result that's positive.

Speaker 3 (01:00:58):
Like you look at the way, how many police do
you need to feel safe?

Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
Right exactly. And it's funny because any in any other
dimension of a person's life, the logic is always like
like if anything is like how much they paying that
guy to do that terrible job. No, no, no, that's
not gonna work. Or sports, how much money they play,
like how much they how much they paying for players?
How much do they spend on like signing a player?
And they still suck. No, no, no, something's got to
work out different. But in this instance, it's just like no.
I honestly the thinking ends at I don't know, just

(01:01:25):
more money, I guess, because it's just so hard to
be in the shift course away from something like that.
And it's wild because there's nothing that's showing us that
with all the money that's being spent, it's not solving anything.
So what is the counter argument?

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
Right, Yeah, it's just very like old brain, like pre
you know, pre advanced brain, thinking of fight or flight,
and people just going dumb immediately, and then obviously a
great deal of white supremacy mixed in there. Yes, ye,
well allow me. I feel like we could talk to
you about this for hours. What a pleasure having you

(01:02:01):
on the show. Where can people find you? Follow you,
hear more from you?

Speaker 4 (01:02:06):
You should subscribe to my YouTube channel Illerinati. I have
a lot of great content lined up. I'm getting ready
to put out a big expos on Greg Abbott, so
I'm excited about that, like the one I put out
in Eric Adams. Yeah, someone Texas's ass, So do that
and follow me on all socials, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, threads
at miss so Luran ms O, l U R I

(01:02:27):
N thank you amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
Is there a work of media that you've been enjoying?
We heard what you thought about mister and missus Smith.
What is there anything enjoying?

Speaker 4 (01:02:38):
I actually I started Avatar or the cartoon for the
first time. My boyfriends in the Avatar. I started watching Avatar,
and I see the hype. I see y'all, even though
I started watching it because people were complain about the
Avatar show, saying it's too much exposition. But I'm here
to tell y'all, babies that the cartoon is full of
exposition and not the best dialogue too, like perhaps your childhood.

Speaker 3 (01:02:58):
You're remembering this a little bit diferendic because it's a cartoon.

Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
Win.

Speaker 4 (01:03:01):
I'm like, oh, the everything is filled with that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:06):
So yeah, Avatar, Yeah, I liked that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
I got I got that recommendation during the pandemic. Can
I spent some of the pandemic watching them? That's good,
it's good. Miles. Where can people find you as their
working media you've been enjoying?

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
Yeah, followed me at Miles of Gray wherever they serve
at symbols. If you like basketball, check Jack and I
out on Miles and Jack on Matt Booth Spois and
if you like ninety day Fiance, I'm chatting that ship
over at four to twenty day Fiance.

Speaker 3 (01:03:29):
You know, like the and you know what's going You
have the channel for ninety day Fiance. I love ninety Fiance.

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
Yeah, you have a podcast called four twenty Day Fiance. Yeah,
it's a good time. It's a good time. So a
tweet I like. Josh Gondleman at Josh Gondleman tweeted, it's
fascinating to me how people sometimes roll their eyes at
impressions as comedy, but impressions as drama consistently wins Oscars.
Yeah wow, good point. And then also at Cardamom, Kissed
tweeted she died what she loved walking into the road

(01:03:57):
while saying pedestrians have right of way.

Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
Tweet I've been enjoying. Rob den Blacker tweeted about the
Oscars Is Oppenheimer Godzilla minus one the first time a
movie and a sequel both one Oscars in the same
year or so. It's pretty clever, Pretty clever.

Speaker 4 (01:04:19):
Rob.

Speaker 1 (01:04:20):
You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore. Obrian
you can find us on Twitter at Daily Zeikeeist. We're
at d daily Zekeeist on Instagram. We have a Facebook
fan page and a website Daily zeikeist dot com where
we post our episodes and our footnote where we link
off to the information that we talked about in today's episode. Well,
it's a song that we think you might enjoy, Miles,
what song do you think people might enjoy?

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
Yeah, there's a new track out from Fred again, one
of you know the producers of the year really featuring
Lil YACHTI and it's called stay in It. One word
st a y I n it and it's just like
it just feels like a massive, you know, party jam.
I have a feeling it's going to be played a
lot this summer. But just get your just get your energy,
distract stand Fred again. Yeah, we will link off to

(01:05:03):
that in the footnotes.

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
Todaily's Eitgeist is a production of my Heart Radio. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. That is
gonna do it for us this morning. We are back
this afternoon to tell you what is trendy and we
will talk to you all then Bye.

Speaker 2 (01:05:17):
Bye,