All Ball - Pt. 3 Former Villanova HC Steve Lappas on Nova Exit, UMass Regrets, Transfer Portal Chaos
December 13, 2022 • 45 mins
Doug is joined by Villanova Head Coach and current CBS college hoops analyst Steve Lappas, who looks back at the the events that led up to his resignation from Nova, why he regrets his decision to immediately take the head coaching job at a rebuilding UMass program, how he transitioned from coaching into broadcasting, why he’s never returned, and how he’d change the current transfer portal free-for-all.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
What I'm welcome in. I'm dog gotlib this is all ball.
This is part three of our conversation with Steve Lapis coach. Lappis,
of course, began his career as uh, you know, a
high school coach, remembers dad. His dad owned a flower shop,
there were Greek immigrants. All of those elements of the
story are are fasted. But where we are after part
(00:27):
two is things aren't going as well as Villanova as
they were when he first got there, and all of
it traces back to the Old Dominion game, his first
n c A terming game has head coach at Villanova.
Obviously years later, now we know he ultimately lost his
job and went to U mass How did he get there?
Take a list in part three of my discussion with
CBS college basketball analysts a long time head coaching college
(00:48):
Steve Lapps. YEA, the last couple of years, what was
that like for you? Where you're trying to get it back?
The lead is unbelievable and what are good years elsewhere?
Are not nova? Nova good years? Right? Like you missed
(01:09):
the tournament, you missed the postseason, Like one time you
played in the n c a A. You play in
the n I t It's not like you're, you know,
dragging up the bottom of any big East. But I
know the stress and the strain of trying to get
it back weighed on you heavily. What were the last
couple of years later, Well, you know what we had.
You know, Look, you can you can lament things all
you want. That we had a game against Miami, who
(01:29):
was ranked in the top ten um by second to
last year in Villanova. They we we missed the n
A Tournament by a game. And Mike janc was on
the committee, told me that that we were the first
team left out and uh, we had a game against
Miami where at that time, how about this, At that time,
you couldn't they made a shot after the buzzer. The
(01:52):
referee called it good and it was clearly after the buzzer, clearly,
but you couldn't go to the monitor in those days.
They changed a rule the next week. The next week,
you can look it up the rule that it's the
first time they changed the rule in the middle of
the season. It was in January. We lose it home,
clearly after the buzzer. I remember our Art Highland was
(02:14):
there at the game. Was the supervisor officials, and I
went the zerk and this particular official, like there's only
one official that I won't look at to this day,
I won't say his name, and he was he did
the game. The other two officials actually apologized to me
the next week. This one guy never did um and
it causes an n s a turn. But they were
like number ten the country at that time. Leonard Hamiltons
(02:35):
had it gone and the game was over and they
made up. We were up to and they threw a
shot in from forty feet and was after the buzz
and they called it good. Next week they changed a
rule anyway, So you know, yes, stuff like that happened,
But what are you gonna say? And you know, you
take a look when when I left, When when I
left the Big East for at least ten or twelve
(02:58):
years after that, I was the fifth winning is coach
in the history of the league. Six And you can
name the guys that were ahead of me. It was Calhoun, Thompson, Carna, Seca,
Rollie and you know, yeah and be him. Obviously I
was six for like I hadn't coached in the league
in like twelve fourteen years and I was still six
(03:20):
so we won a lot of games, and even my
last two years we won games in the Big East.
I think the only year I was under five in
the Big East was my first year, and and maybe
that year we went twelve and seventeen. I'd have to look,
but we won games in that league. But that year
we didn't make it. The following year we had Michael Bradley.
(03:40):
Again we missed. We were one of the first teams
left out, and that was it was time, you know,
time to go. So again, you know, if if if
old dominion doesn't happen and we go to on the
Elite eight that year or Final four, you could withstand this.
But and that's what I try to tell people. They say,
you know, I'll be I'll be talking about uh a
(04:02):
coach and say, you know, okay, I'll give you an example.
John Calipari is safe. He's a great coach, he's don't
believing job. But that lost to St. Peter's gives a
little crack. It just cracks the armor a little bit.
Jeremy and and and now the clocks on. No, he's
(04:27):
a great coach, he should be fine. But if they
don't make the Final four this year, could be in
a little crack and if you can you if they
win the national championship this year, crack is going, you
know what I mean. And I never was able to
get rid of the crack. The crack just got a
little bigger, a little bigger, a little bigger. And that
(04:49):
was in no I mean listen, and and sometimes you
don't even I mean, like, look, I was in southern
California for the whole Jim Herrick era. And had they
lost when Taia said he made the shot against Missouri,
it's probably fired the next day because they had consid
could they had never been able to get to the
final four. They lost a Yukon I think the year
(05:11):
before year before that was the Elite eight or a
couple years for that, they got beat by forty by Indiana.
They just and then there would be early tournament losses.
Year before that they went won the tournament and they
lost to Tulsa and they just lose the tolls. They
got run off the court by Tulsa. And so I
I don't think he ever escaped that because even after
he won the title, Remember they got him for they
(05:32):
they componed him, they got him for like receipts you know,
sense reports, you know, but really it was that they
would they would flame out early in the tournament except
for and that never sat well with them. Um so yeah,
I completely understand that. Um okay, So what what is
(05:53):
it like at the end when like, was your contract up?
Did you know it was over because you didn't sit
out of here? You went to take me through the
You're in February, You're you're trying to get it going,
and yet there's the will will you keep your job?
And then you end up getting another job? How did
it all take place? The reality? Well, here's the reality
(06:16):
that I gotta be honest with you. It didn't even
enter my mind that I was in trouble at Villanova ever. Ever,
didn't enter my mind. Yeah. I was upset that we
you know, we we we wouldn't go to the term,
But it never entered my First of all, I got
extended the year before, two years, okay, so my second
to LA at the end of my second my before
(06:39):
going into my last year, I had gotten extended. Okay,
I now had three more years, had three years on
my contract, they extended me. Okay. So Plus I was
at a school that had three coaches in seventy five years.
So I always felt like, yeah, I mean listen, yeah,
if I go you know, twenty, yeah that's not good.
(07:01):
But you know, we go twenty and eleven and go
to the n I t they gotta fire me for that.
So when I got the word that he wanted to
talk to me, all of a sudden, this thing came
all of a sudden. Now, maybe I'm an idiot. Maybe
I should have known better, you know what I mean,
But I was blindsided. And I know that may sound crazy,
(07:24):
but I was completely blindsided and it was like really,
So I get the phone call. Gene v Philippo was
the Boston College athletic director now at the time, and
he calls me, says, Steve, I just wanted you to know.
I think I think you're in trouble because I've in
(07:44):
trouble for what he said, and I think you're gonna
get fired. I said, what, get out of here? Why?
I mean really, I thought there was no way Villanova
would would would do that, and I resigned, you know,
you know, I resigned. Um, but I said I'm in trouble.
(08:07):
I said, how could that be? So he says, you know, listen,
I'm good friends with Bob Markham. Think about it. They're
looking for a guy you mask. He's really interested going
to you mass, going to you mass, what you're talking about,
going on, staying and going over all right, get a
phone call from President Secretary I wanted to see me
(08:30):
the next day, called me in and he's the guy
who hired me, and he said, uh, you know, I
was been debating this. I was thinking about letting you
have one more year. But I decided I think it's time.
I said, time for what he says, for you not
(08:53):
to be the coach here anymore. So I said, so
the athletic director, who was a nice guy, had nothing
to do with him. And I believe that Vincent cashtro
was in the office with him, three of us, and
he said, he turned you know, so I said, you're
firing And he said, did anybody ever say the word fire?
Did I say fire? He turns to the athletics right,
(09:15):
he says, I say fire. I said, oh, so I
can coach the team. He said no, No, you're not
gonna coach the team. He said, so not being fired,
He turned to go to I never said that, So
you know, you could get the drift there Doug. So
that was but what happened, and so I resigned and
(09:36):
I had three years left on my contract at the time. Now,
you gotta understand, contracts in those days were not now,
contracts were based salary, you know what I mean. In
those days, there was no uh you know, huge buy out.
There was no uh you know you were getting your
(09:56):
the sneaker money was separate, the TV money was separate.
So three years, it was three years, no question. It
was three years base salary. And that was it. And
I was My whole family was distraught. I mean I
thought I thought in the house that I had that
for sure. My daughter was gonna walk down the stairs
(10:17):
in her bridle down. That's how we felt. My wife
was she none of us ever forgotten it, and she
maybe even more of the rest of us never forgot it. Um.
So it was. It was. It was rough, very rough,
and so I probably I made a big mistake. I
(10:37):
should not have gone to you mass. I should have
sat out and a year, gone to TV for a
year and waited. Because I I had I had a
good name. Still, people thought I was pretty good coach,
and I won a lot of games, even though we
didn't win the tournament, but we want a lot of games,
so I probably would have gotten should have sat out
(10:58):
of year. And that's the problem with this business is
that you have to make really important decisions at very
emotional times. You know, it's a very emotional time, the
end of the season, and now you're gonna make this decision.
And so um, and I was on the type of
guy this is me? And I tell I tell my
(11:19):
son this, because he's in coaching coaches at Wagner. I said,
you gotta worry about your family, but you gotta worry
about your career. And I'll explain this. I don't want
to make it sound like I'm harsh or anything. I
was really concerned. I was really concerned about my daughter
who's going into high school, a staying for a year,
(11:39):
then pulling her out of high school and taking her
somewhere else. Guess what, Yes, it's not ideal, but she
would have been fine. She would have been fine. But
if you let those things come into the come into
your professional decisions too, it just makes things that much
more difficult. And I and I look back now and
I said, you know what, I was worried about that,
(12:00):
And that's one of the reason why I took the
um ses. I wanted to get the kids settled. He
can't worry about that. They'll be fine. You raised them good,
They'll be They'll It might be tough, it might be
some tough moments, might be some tears, no question. But
this profession is so hard. If you take all these
things into account, then it's really hard. It becomes that
(12:20):
much harder, and so you gotta try and simplify it
as much you can. I didn't, and I ran to
U Mask and U Mass was a very good school,
amates the beautiful town. But you know, the timing wasn't good.
They fired Bruiser, who they loved. And I don't blame him.
He had done a really good job there and he
was a Calipari guy. And here comes it. Just it
(12:43):
was never good. It was never good. So um, I
made an emotional decision at an emotional time, and I
should have sat out, and I probably would have got
myself clear my head, do TV or whatever for a year,
do nothing, and then you know it back in. But
I was worried about the family and the continuity for
(13:03):
the kids, and you know we live here now. Then
I gonna get a job somewhere else. We're gonna move
and she's gonna be a sophomore in high school. She's
gonna freak out. But you can't worry about those things. Yeah,
you gotta. I mean, obviously, if you gets sick, you're
gonna worry about that first. I get that. But stuff
like this, they'll they'll be fine, they'll be fine. Um
When did you know you shouldn't have taken it? Um?
(13:27):
After when when Bob markhom left Bob Marcom hired me
and he left after my first year and he went
he was gonna retire. He left to retire, and then
he ended up taking another job. But that's when I
and I had five athletic directors in the four years
I was there, So it was really upside down. And uh,
(13:50):
you know, I knew. I knew pretty quickly it was
gonna be tough. We didn't, you know, we got a
couple of kids in our first And here's the crazy
thing about you mask just to big a long story short. Um,
you know what happens, Doug. If you don't get a
great recruiting class your first year when you take over
a program, now you've got no chance to be good
till year four. You know what I mean. And what
happened was our first class we got good players, imploded
(14:12):
because one guy got caught stealing and some things happened.
We had to get rid of a couple of guys.
So we did start all over. So now I got
a great recruiting class my third year. So in year
four we go sixteen and eleven, we go nine, We
go nine and seven in the Atlantic ten all freshman Softwars.
(14:33):
We beat Yukon they had never mad Rudy Gay. We'd
beat Florida State by twenty five points. We beat the
g W, was ranked at g W with all freshman
soft Wars. And the guy fired me. And I remember
I was in this office. The day was fine, I said,
and I very blunt. I said, you know, you don't
(14:54):
know what you're looking at. You see look I understand.
He said, well, look, nobody's coming to the game. Do
you understand nobody's coming to the games? Because you guys
are looking at when John Caliparia people coming to these games.
They were number one in the country and people were
driving from Boston ninety miles in the middle of the
winter and snowstorms to get here. I get that. But
(15:17):
if you're just good, this is a tough place. And
and it's they're not coming because of me. They're not
coming because we're not good yet. But we're gonna be
really good. We got Stefan Lastman as a sophomore, We
got ray Sian Freeman as a sophomore. These guys are
gonna be the two best players in the league. And
they ended up being that. And no, he fires me,
and I said, you know what, and then the whole
thing just blew up. And then Travis FOURD came in,
(15:39):
and you know, he went to the n I T
three times and he got fifteen million at your alma mater.
He got out. He got out, got out quick when
and Lanning get Landing, get out, get out of as
as as quickly as you can. Fox Sports Radio has
the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all
(16:00):
of our shows at Fox sports Radio dot com and
within the I Heart Radio app search f s R
to listen live. Obviously that you said, how the nova
thing still hurts? What about was it? What was what
was the How would you describe the emotion when they
let you go at umss um? Yeah? Different, I kind
(16:26):
of I my whole attitude towards being on the line
changed when I was a U Mass because I'd gotten
you know, what happened to Villanova happened, and so I
I my last year a U Mass, I was a mess,
you know. I mean the pressure was really and we was,
like I said, we were sixteen eleven. We had us
(16:48):
and if if we'd have made the N I T
were probably a game short of the N I T,
they would have had to keep me because that was
in the contract. But h um, you know, I did
something stupid there. I renegotiated by contract after my third year. Uh,
because they you know, I should have just told him,
you know what you want to get rid of me,
(17:09):
now just pay me? And I didn't do that. So
it was you know, I made a lot of mistakes,
there's no question, but I wanted to coach and that's
all I cared about. And I really thought we were
gonna I really thought that we finally had the program
in the right direction. I know we did, I know
we did. And uh uh, the the emotion was different
(17:29):
then because now I'm sitting there saying I might be done.
You know, I didn't. After after Villanova, I wasn't worried
about being done. Um, Like I said, I could have
sat out of year and I got it. I think
I could have got something good, really good and uh,
you know, because we had a good reputation, we didn't
(17:50):
have uh violations and graduated everybody and you know whatever. Um.
But now after you match, I was like, I could
be done, you know, unless I want to go coach it.
You know, I'm certainly done from the level I want
to coach at. UM do I wanna you know? And
my wife would say, well, if you really want to coach,
(18:11):
you'll go coach it. Uh you know a school in
the Northeast Conference or something like that. I said, you know, yes,
and no, I said, it's like you know you It's
like it's like you taught at Harvard and now you're
gonna go teach community college. You know what I mean.
I don't know if it's that easy to do. I
had guys, I had pros, you know, would be in
a bunch of them, and it was like, I don't
(18:32):
know if I want to do that. And that's when
I decided to try the TV thing. And you know,
thankfully it's it's worked out. CB has been great to me,
and that's kind of where it is. You know, like
you do play more golf now. You're a different guy
now then than you are even when you first got
into TV and radio. But I I always think, like, guy,
(18:56):
it's gonna be a heart for former. It's hard for
me and I haven't been a Division one coach to
be there on the sideline because you actually missed not
just the winning locker room, you kind of missed the
losing locker room as well. Like that misery. But you're
in it together, and how do we fix it? What?
What are those emotions like, especially when you're doing it,
you know at the level you're doing it with the
(19:18):
n c A tournament, in somebody's tournament championships. You know,
you you the thing that you missed. You know, you're You're.
I was part of a team from when I was
twelve years old, so all I knew was was a
locker room and being part of a team. And I've
been fortunate my whole life to spend basically you know,
except for the years I had I was teaching in
high school. But I was coaching high school, so I
mean this is all I ever did, so you know,
(19:40):
the first five years out, We're tough, you know what
I mean, especially when September rolls around, was like, oh
what am I gonna do? And and I you know,
and uh, it's gotten easier. And now I'm at the point,
to be honest with you, Doug, if somebody came to
me and said, hey, you want to I would say, no,
(20:01):
I've gotten two used to a life of not worried
about anything three and sixty five days a year. If
I had to go back I see my son now, Wagner.
If I had to go back to that and start
worrying about something three d sixty five days a year,
now I'm sixty eight, I'm not I'm certainly not thinking
of doing that now. So it's gotten better, do I say?
But I still miss you know, like uh, Wagner beat
(20:23):
Temple a couple of weeks ago at Temple and I
was there for the game and it was Donald Copeland's
first game the head coach there as the head coach,
and it was in the locker room after the game,
and it was it was unbelievable, you know what I mean,
Corn sold on him, and I mean it was just
being in that locker room was like, uh, you know,
I don't know you you know you've been in those things.
(20:46):
It's something that's so special, and you're right, it's also
specially being in a losing locker room because you're sharing
something you're so emotionally vested with all these guys. It's
a being part of a team. You cannot look why
is Tom Brady still doing what he's doing? Because he
loves being part of a team. That's why, no question,
no question. That feeling last night, we like we're recording
(21:09):
this on Tuesday, that feeling of leading a comeback, and
he saw him like running off the field right, because
there had to be a moment early in that game
they're down sixteen to three where he's like, what am
I doing? You know what am I doing here? You know,
going through a divorce, he's in his forties, he's got
more championships than God, what am I doing? Then you'll
(21:33):
win the game. You're like, let's do it again, Like,
I'll do it a y'all's a lifetime, can't because because
the energy of finding out like it's a it's kind
about a math problem, right, figuring out how and then
you all of a sudden you complete the math problem
with a bunch of guys. He's like, we did it,
let's go do it again. It's so amazing, amazing. It's
a drug. It's a drug, I say, I say, you
(21:55):
know now, I don't want using the term is obviously
it's a it's a it's a bad drug. And I
see it's like crack, it's you know what I mean,
it's I guess that's a that's a crack. Does the
people just you know, you can't you can't walk go
away from it. But that's kind of how it is
the coaching. I mean again, a lot of this is
(22:16):
from talking to you and our time together. But I
felt like my dad used to tell about all the time.
It's interesting. It doesn't feel like there's the same camaraderie
in the profession that there used to be. Now I
could be wrong because I'm in California and it's not guys.
I know Philly guys are still really really close, like
(22:37):
they do an amazing job. Uh, there's a bond there
even though they're competitive with each other. Um, but is
it is it from yours by your estimation? The same
as when you were coming up in terms of the
camaraderie in coaches, even when you're at rival schools. You know,
I think, I mean, I think those guys in the
(23:00):
Big East are relatively tight. Um. Now that's probably the
because I live in Big East Territory and most of
the games I do for CBS and CBS Sports Network
a Big East game, So I think they gotta I
think those guys are relatively tight. I had to say so.
I don't know how it is in the rest of
the country, but I think those guys, I mean, I
(23:20):
think Jay had a pretty good relationship with a lot
of those guys. Um, And I know Ed Cooley is
really tight with Sean Miller, So I think that those
guys have a pretty good relationship. Do uh, what do
you think Jay does well? He's doing a game with
meats to borrow night, the Villanova Penn game. Where will
(23:42):
they be as good as you and I were together? Ah,
that remains to be seen. Are we're gonna have a
debate about seeming the ball? I don't know about that
we have you know, those are the things that came up. Well,
you don't, you don't. You don't. You didn't teach you
guys to see in the ball? Yes, I did. That's
what we're talked about. But I'm saying that's on time.
I had that conversation on air with you. We're talking
about you gotta seeing the ball when they catch it.
(24:06):
They just get it there somehow. I think they I
think they practice it when they're holding when they're holding
the basketball. You know, it's interesting. I won't I won't
say the name of the executive in but there was
one time wherever you and I kind of got into
it on air over something, and it was like halftime.
We both like took our headsets off and walked away,
and he came up to me and he's like, are
(24:27):
you okay? Are you okay? And I go, yeah, I'm fine.
Why He's like, well, you know you and coach and
was like, but that's kind of how basketball people are, like,
you know, you'll argue about things right and get mad,
which not really mad, you just want to win the argument,
you know. And I thought it was really it was
like I was my favorite times when we would have
the like the coach and the player and you like,
(24:49):
you don't know what you're talking about, and I said, no,
you don't know. You like that. That was it was good.
But it's it is interesting that none basketball people don't
understand or maybe can't sort of grasp the It's not
an argument because you don't like the other person. It's
just an argument because that's you're just kind of hot
blooded and you want to be right. That's truly what
(25:10):
it's about. And because there's so many ways to skin
a cat in this business. You've got you got, you got,
you got Bobby Knight in the Hall of Fame. He
wouldn't play Zone in a zillion years. You've got Jim
Beeheim and all of Fame. He wouldn't play man and
man in a zillion years. You know what I mean.
There's just so many different ways to skin a cat.
For sure, that's not a good term either, but you
know what I mean. It's but now listen, no one
(25:32):
thinks they're actually skinning a cat. Not offensive anyway. You've
gotta be careful what you say. I understand, I understand,
I understand, I totally understand. I don't want you to
lose your profitable job. Okay, So who is who's the
hands down funniest guy during your time in the business. Oh? Wow,
(25:54):
hands down funniest guy. Like as I would say, in
in media. This is not in coaching. I'm asking you
about coach in media. Like, it's pretty hard to stop.
I nag, right, Like the guy, it's just funny, and
it's not even telling jokes. He's just funny. And I
know of other people that are enjoyable, like most of
(26:16):
everybody you're with are enjoyable to be around. And there
are guys that are are funny or whatever, but no
one to that level. Um. I mean in my time
around coaches, I mean Mike Dean's and he's a nut,
but an amazing story storyteller. Fran McCaffrey's a nut, but
an amazing storyteller. Um My dad used to tell me
(26:38):
about Judd Heathcote and how funny Judd Heathcote uh was.
But in your circle, who's the guy who's like he
holds court. He's the new age Valvano in terms of
entergy entertainment value when you're around. Yeah, I mean, I
don't know if he's new age, but when I was
coaching p J. Carlssim was definitely up there. Yeah, he
(27:01):
was one of those guys. I think it cool. He
is a lot like that. Yeah, it cool. He is
a very you know, positive funny guy. Um, those are
the two that I can think of the top of
my head. Should guy should coaches should be would be
a prerequisite to coach high school ball. I said, because
you start in high school. My coach, coach Sutton started
in high school. Frances start in high school. My dad
(27:23):
started high school. Hube Brown starting high school. It feels
like there is something to the to the coaching at
that level which gives you something that other guys don't have. Yeah,
I think I think that's true for a lot of things.
You know, first of all, you know, uh, you have
kids that aren't obviously aren't as good at players, So
(27:44):
you learn not to take anything for granted. You learn
to try about trying to develop guys from scratch. You learn,
you know, I know, for me, I was only an
assistant in college level for four years, which is relatively little.
When I got my job in Manhattan College though, when
I was thirty four, you know, I was. I I
(28:05):
ran a bench, you know, as a high school coach,
you know what I mean, I called timeouts. I So
when I got the job in Manhattan, I was. I
think that definitely helped me be ready. I think a
lot of these guys assistance, not that they can't be successful.
Of course, a million of this have been successful as
head coaches. I think it helps them if they'd have
coach in high school just to get used to, you know,
having disciplined and having to call timeouts and having to
(28:27):
bench this guy or do it. So there's a lot
of there's a lot to be said of what you
can learn coaching high school team. You mentioned um sitting
a guy out, that that's a fast thing. One I
had a conversation with a coach and I told him,
like coach settings, I never get his phrase to me,
which is like I'll lose this game if you you know,
I don't care, I'll lose the game. Okay, we're gonna
(28:49):
do it my way, right, And so many coaches and
I can think of another coach he's at up an
a C C school who at his previous school, like
he was suspending I for a half a game, and
I was like, what are you doing it just to
spend him the whole game? Leave him home or better yet,
bring him dress him. I mean, don't dress him, make
him sit on the bench and watch everybody else play
(29:11):
like you want to you want to punish a kid,
make him watch him, don't don't, don't leave him home,
bring him, let him watch everybody else play like that
will piss him off. And he wouldn't do it. And
I was, like, I told him. The coach said, there
was like, no, you gotta be willing to lose a game,
you know, to get him do your way? Like are
you willing to sacrifice the game or even two to
get a guy to get people to do it your way?
(29:32):
And that doesn't seem to be the case as much. Um,
what's that balance like when you're the head coach knowing that,
all right, if I'm gonna lose this, you know, I
might lose the team if I don't sit him, but
I'm gonna lose the game if I don't play him. Hey,
I made I won't I won't say any names, but
I made a I made a big mistake at you,
mass um, accepting some things from a guy that I
(29:59):
shouldn't have And uh, you know, because you're thinking, well,
this guy is one of our best players. But you
know what Doug and I told my sons. I said,
I said, the good thing. My father was a florist.
He couldn't he came from Greece, he couldn't really help
me with these decisions. I tell my sons always keep
this in mind. Nothing, nothing is more important in the
(30:24):
game of basketball than chemistry. Nothing, not talent, not nothing.
So don't ever make a decision because a guy is
really good that's going to affect the chemistry and good team.
Could you think that him being good is gonna matter
more because it's not. And uh, I should have bounced
(30:45):
the guy and I didn't, and uh, and finally in
the end, he gets hurt. My last year, I can't play,
and all of a sudden we take off. So you
know it's Uh, that's a tough one. And I will
tell any young coach that don't let anything get in
(31:08):
the way of the chemistry. If this guy's not toing
the line, if this guy's coming late, if this guy
is doing whatever, if this guy's talking back, guess what, well,
nobody ever talk back to me. So I don't want
to say. I don't want to make a sound like
that's what it was. I was. I was, I was
one of these guys done my assistance. This is a
funny story. I would drive the nuts. I would take
(31:29):
the guy out of the game, right, so the guy
would naturally took kids would make a face. You know,
they don't want to get take it out of the game.
So I would say, hey, don't make a face. Don't
make so my assister tell me, coach, why are you
looking at him? You took him out of the game.
Don't look at him because you know you're getting You're
getting mad for no reason. Don't look at him. Just
take him out of the game. Be like Jim bad.
(31:49):
You take him out. They're all mad whatever, you don't
even care. That's how you should be. But you know
it's uh, don't let anything affect the chemistry. Ever. Yeah,
that they're taking them out and not look at him,
I don't agree with. Like I think like a lot
of times they know why they came out. But that's
like that's the moment where you can where you can
(32:09):
actually coach them, right. And I mean, like, look, jas
thing is they just say attitude and it's telling you
your attitude is not right. It's kind of an amazing
thing that they were able to tap into it. Nova
um but um. But it's you know, it's it's interesting,
Like I want I want to see how you react.
I wanted to do. That's how I was. My assistant
(32:31):
would say, coach, coach, you know all, it doesn't get
you upset. Don't look at them they want I said, well,
that's what I do. You know, Kyle's gonna go through
kind of that same thing that you went through. It
at you mass right, like, man, that's no job now.
And I know they've had injuries and they just got
wit More back, but man, Jay right, No, it's what's impossible.
(32:55):
It's impossible, you know what I mean. Yeah, I mean,
don't be wrong that it's it's possible to do probably
impossible to do what he did again. And so he's
just gonna have to you know what, what do we
always say? You gotta be yourself, do the best you can.
He's a great guy, he's a great coach, but he's
(33:18):
he is definitely in an unenviable situation, as is John Shire.
Maybe maybe worse for Kyle Neptune because you feel like
Duke has the wherewithal to keep even look at the
recruiting class he got and yeah, Villanova can't win more,
but they got four of them, you know, so it's
(33:39):
a little easier at two. I know, it's not gonna
be easy. You're following Mike Trajetski, I get it, but
a little bit easier, I think than what Kyle Neptune has.
Can you believe Bahan's still doing it? That's unbelievable, unbelievable.
Why Why? Because you know, here's a guy and I say,
he is in sweat the small stuff, and so for him,
(34:03):
it's like, you know, it's a good way from the
I'm gonna saying he's just passing time. The guy coaches,
but he's always been a guy that you know, I
don't he was never watching you know, ten game fields,
and and he'll never dispute it because he knows it's true.
They don't do shoot arounds. They were like one of
the first time they don't really they don't really scout
(34:25):
because because no one really plays the way that they play,
so they don't really scout because like, what's the point.
That's why, honestly, I feel like they get better in
the second half of games because they're scouting the first half,
like the first half, they're trying to see what you're
doing against their own and now they actually you know,
do some coaching at halftime, but still to have to
(34:46):
go to the office every day, you have to do
practice every day, to have to do all the media
you do, and like, look, I get it, you get
he can do Florida most the rest of the year.
But this is a it's a three sixty five job,
even if you're not grinding the way everybody else grinds. Like, man,
I was sure like his kids get done. He's done,
(35:07):
you know. Now he's like he I don't. I don't
really get it. Yeah, I mean. And not only that,
to have had the career he's yet and now to
have to listen to like people be mad and kill you.
That that definitely I wouldn't do. But you know, seventy
eight years old, you know he's a he's a different guy.
There's no question. That's unbelievable. Have you passed him as
(35:29):
a golfer yet? No, that will never happen. Never you guys,
we're time to play golf. You listen, Doug. Let me
explain this to you like I tell like I tell
friends of mine all the time. I said, understand this.
They said, why I can't, Why aren't you any better?
I said, Here's what I'll tell you. When I was
a kid, I played basketball ten hours a day. I
was a Division three player. I could have played twenty
(35:52):
eight hours a day, and I was never gonna be
a Division one player. It's called talent. This is the
limited talent that I have in golf, and that's who
I am. So that's it. Yeah, everybody thinks the golf
is just I don't get enough reps. What's your what's
your biggest flaw with golf? Can't drive it, you know,
weak drives, don't hit it far. That's that's my biggest problem.
(36:16):
My short games. Okay, I put pretty good, but don't
you know, I can't drive it if if if I
get one off to on or I'm like the ecstatic,
can't drive it. Uh. Favorite place you called a game?
You know. I I never did a TV game there,
(36:37):
but I did uh a radio game at Alan Fieldhouse.
That was cool. I enjoyed that big time. Uh I did.
I did radio from Cameron Indoor that was not not
as good because you're up top. Yeah you know what
I mean. You're in the bird's nest up top, so
(36:59):
that's not as exactly you're on the floor. And I
did a game at I did a game on radio
also at the Assembly Hall in Indiana. That was pretty good. Um,
the Palestra to some to a non Philly guy and
you're obviously New York guy who became SIMS with Philly sports.
But what is other than the cool architecture? What is
(37:22):
it about the palestra that makes it makes it cool? Well,
what made it cool was the thing that made the
palesture the plesture was that you'd have you know, four
sets of fans in this building that you couldn't fit
another person in. And it was so loud. Um and yes,
but the architecture is a big party, but it just
(37:42):
loud and it looks like a cathedral, like you know,
I mean on the outside it kind of could be
a church. And uh, but I think it was the
the atmosphere on the inside that really really made it, uh,
you know special when the place was packed and you know,
it was a shame. The other day there was a game.
(38:02):
Uh they had a big five doubleheader. I don't know
if there were three thousand people there. It really was,
you know, tough to watch. Why do you want why
has it gotten this way? I mean if it affects Philly,
like Philly was the last kind of Bastion. Right, it
was the last city that really cared about college ships.
Why are we at that point? Um? I think a
(38:26):
big thing was was what Jay Wright and Villanova did
to the Big Five. I mean in the old days,
and those were always fifty fifty games. Even if when
Villanova played Penn that was a tough game. Villanova played
Sat Jels, that was a tough game. I think j
won like thirty nine of his last forty Big Five games.
(38:46):
I think that that that hurt the Big Five so much. Now,
why didn't they keep up with Villanova? I mean, you know,
Villanova just went to a different level. And I think
that that and that never happened in the Big Five. Now,
that's what's happened in the Big Five, that Dulnov was
going to a different level. Huh Huh's interesting? Interesting of that.
(39:11):
If if you could, if you could change one thing
about college basketball, what would it be? Oh, I would
change the transfer portal for sure. Now what would you do?
I would go back to you gotta you know, you
can leave, but you gotta sit out of here, and
and and and and forget all these waivers and everything else.
Like it used to be hard and fast. You can leave.
(39:34):
I'm not gonna stop you from leaving, but you gotta
city here. I mean, it's not like it's not like
we used to tell kids they couldn't transfer. They could
always transfer, but you have the city here. That's all.
That's what I would do. I think that changes everything,
you know, And and the worst part about the arguments
is like, well, you know, he's transferred to be closer
to home, Like, okay, so you get a year to
(39:56):
actually go home and see your folks, you know, and
like nobody saying you can't transfer home. You just can't
play basketball right away, right, That's a that's that's that's
the main thing that I would do for sure. And
then I mean, I don't know how it's easy to
say gets some control over this inn I L thing.
I don't know, you know what I mean. It's like, uh,
(40:18):
that's a whole other thing that that so so, so
here's my here here's my thoughts. You cannot collect penny
on n I L until you've actually played a season
for the school. That would be a good start, okay,
So just just again, it's the idea of that's a
(40:39):
good idea. You don't have a name image like this.
When you come into a school, right you play, you
earn a value. Somebody wants to give you money to
represent a car dealership. Right it also and you know
then if you leave again, the clock starts over at
the new school. You can transfer, but you can't get
a penny until you play the year. That's a good idea.
(41:00):
That's a really good We're solving the world's problems. Laugh,
that's what we're We're solving world's world's problems. Um uh okay,
last thing, Um, your favorite memory of calling an n
c A tournament game can be anything. Your favorite memory, Um, oh,
(41:21):
it's gotta be when huh um, Ron Hunter's son made
the shot against Baylor and then Ron fell off the chair,
Ron fell office a scooter. Yes, that's gotta be it. Yes, yeah,
it's the it's the little stuff, right, it's the it's
the time move tween games. It's the the second day
(41:46):
after the games where you get to just meet with
the players like that stuff, and then those moments. I
remember my my first n c A tourman game. First
one I did was Wichita beat Pittsburgh. The second one
was Gonzaga. They beat Southern but with four minutes and
thirty two seconds ago in the game, the game was
tied and it's in you it's insult Lake. And I'm
(42:08):
doing the game with Spirodidas and We're sitting there going
like hitting each other on the arm, like, holy sh it,
we're gonna call the first sixteen one like this is unbelievable.
So and you know, all of a sudden, you know,
everybody rises to their feet, southerns bringing the ball up
the court. And I was like, and I said to him,
(42:28):
my airs, like there are twelve thounds, Like it's like
twelve thousand Southern fans just showed up, you know, like
you know you've been on that with the old dominion.
Everybody's cheering against you, hearing for the for the upset,
and every yet we got a break. And he looks
at me like, and you know, spirows like the greatest
chill is dude ever. He looks at me and he's like,
all right, if this happens, we cannot fund this up, okay,
(42:52):
And like I'm good, Like whatever, dude, He's like, no, no, no,
we can't funk this up anyway. Because Zach end up
winning barely and then losing Wichita the next day. But
those those things are so much fun to do, no question,
so much fun to do. Um. Well, listen, you've been
more than gracious for your time. Whatever the over here's
the here's the great thing about where you are in life,
(43:13):
which I think you're you're getting is like whatever you're
over under is on what the possibilities have. Your career
was like you've hit the over fifteen times over right? Yes? Right?
Like get that you call games now? You coached it
a couple of grade schools. You went to the n
c A tournament, you put guys in the lottery you
want to be. You won the Big East tournament, right like,
(43:34):
there's a there's not a lot of room on the
grave stone if you if you and not that I'm
trying to cover you up with dirt. No, I appreciate that, Doug.
I do. My wife tells me all the time, you
know what I mean. I always look at it like, uh,
I say, you know I was there and I didn't
just quite get or get what I wanted. And she's like,
(43:57):
look where you grew up. You were raised by too immigrants,
and you've got to do this your whole life. So
he tells me, I don't look at it that well
all the time, sir. No, I'm listening. I'm the same way,
like right, like I was on that Final four set
two years and like you know, like it's really hard
to watch. And then I'll get somebody like, hey, yeah,
but you're you made it. You were you actually did that,
(44:19):
you know you actually did that thing, Like yeah, that's true,
and I get to do it still with Westwood. Westwood.
All right, I will see you on the road. You
got time, uh, and let's play golf this year. Absolutely
be well, my man, you too see your brother. Oh
that was awesome. Thank coach Lapis for for joining me,
(44:39):
for giving me so much of his time and energy.
I truly appreciate it. I remember. You can listen to
the Doug Gottlieb Show daily three to five time. There's
the end Ones podcast. Tell friends about this one. This
one I think is I'm pretty happy about It's pretty good.
I'm gottlie This is all all
What I'm welcome in. I'm dog gotlib this is all ball.
This is part three of our conversation with Steve Lapis coach. Lappis,
of course, began his career as uh, you know, a
high school coach, remembers dad. His dad owned a flower shop,
there were Greek immigrants. All of those elements of the
story are are fasted. But where we are after part
(00:27):
two is things aren't going as well as Villanova as
they were when he first got there, and all of
it traces back to the Old Dominion game, his first
n c A terming game has head coach at Villanova.
Obviously years later, now we know he ultimately lost his
job and went to U mass How did he get there?
Take a list in part three of my discussion with
CBS college basketball analysts a long time head coaching college
(00:48):
Steve Lapps. YEA, the last couple of years, what was
that like for you? Where you're trying to get it back?
The lead is unbelievable and what are good years elsewhere?
Are not nova? Nova good years? Right? Like you missed
(01:09):
the tournament, you missed the postseason, Like one time you
played in the n c a A. You play in
the n I t It's not like you're, you know,
dragging up the bottom of any big East. But I
know the stress and the strain of trying to get
it back weighed on you heavily. What were the last
couple of years later, Well, you know what we had.
You know, Look, you can you can lament things all
you want. That we had a game against Miami, who
(01:29):
was ranked in the top ten um by second to
last year in Villanova. They we we missed the n
A Tournament by a game. And Mike janc was on
the committee, told me that that we were the first
team left out and uh, we had a game against
Miami where at that time, how about this, At that time,
you couldn't they made a shot after the buzzer. The
(01:52):
referee called it good and it was clearly after the buzzer, clearly,
but you couldn't go to the monitor in those days.
They changed a rule the next week. The next week,
you can look it up the rule that it's the
first time they changed the rule in the middle of
the season. It was in January. We lose it home,
clearly after the buzzer. I remember our Art Highland was
(02:14):
there at the game. Was the supervisor officials, and I
went the zerk and this particular official, like there's only
one official that I won't look at to this day,
I won't say his name, and he was he did
the game. The other two officials actually apologized to me
the next week. This one guy never did um and
it causes an n s a turn. But they were
like number ten the country at that time. Leonard Hamiltons
(02:35):
had it gone and the game was over and they
made up. We were up to and they threw a
shot in from forty feet and was after the buzz
and they called it good. Next week they changed a
rule anyway, So you know, yes, stuff like that happened,
But what are you gonna say? And you know, you
take a look when when I left, When when I
left the Big East for at least ten or twelve
(02:58):
years after that, I was the fifth winning is coach
in the history of the league. Six And you can
name the guys that were ahead of me. It was Calhoun, Thompson, Carna, Seca,
Rollie and you know, yeah and be him. Obviously I
was six for like I hadn't coached in the league
in like twelve fourteen years and I was still six
(03:20):
so we won a lot of games, and even my
last two years we won games in the Big East.
I think the only year I was under five in
the Big East was my first year, and and maybe
that year we went twelve and seventeen. I'd have to look,
but we won games in that league. But that year
we didn't make it. The following year we had Michael Bradley.
(03:40):
Again we missed. We were one of the first teams
left out, and that was it was time, you know,
time to go. So again, you know, if if if
old dominion doesn't happen and we go to on the
Elite eight that year or Final four, you could withstand this.
But and that's what I try to tell people. They say,
you know, I'll be I'll be talking about uh a
(04:02):
coach and say, you know, okay, I'll give you an example.
John Calipari is safe. He's a great coach, he's don't
believing job. But that lost to St. Peter's gives a
little crack. It just cracks the armor a little bit.
Jeremy and and and now the clocks on. No, he's
(04:27):
a great coach, he should be fine. But if they
don't make the Final four this year, could be in
a little crack and if you can you if they
win the national championship this year, crack is going, you
know what I mean. And I never was able to
get rid of the crack. The crack just got a
little bigger, a little bigger, a little bigger. And that
(04:49):
was in no I mean listen, and and sometimes you
don't even I mean, like, look, I was in southern
California for the whole Jim Herrick era. And had they
lost when Taia said he made the shot against Missouri,
it's probably fired the next day because they had consid
could they had never been able to get to the
final four. They lost a Yukon I think the year
(05:11):
before year before that was the Elite eight or a
couple years for that, they got beat by forty by Indiana.
They just and then there would be early tournament losses.
Year before that they went won the tournament and they
lost to Tulsa and they just lose the tolls. They
got run off the court by Tulsa. And so I
I don't think he ever escaped that because even after
he won the title, Remember they got him for they
(05:32):
they componed him, they got him for like receipts you know,
sense reports, you know, but really it was that they
would they would flame out early in the tournament except
for and that never sat well with them. Um so yeah,
I completely understand that. Um okay, So what what is
(05:53):
it like at the end when like, was your contract up?
Did you know it was over because you didn't sit
out of here? You went to take me through the
You're in February, You're you're trying to get it going,
and yet there's the will will you keep your job?
And then you end up getting another job? How did
it all take place? The reality? Well, here's the reality
(06:16):
that I gotta be honest with you. It didn't even
enter my mind that I was in trouble at Villanova ever. Ever,
didn't enter my mind. Yeah. I was upset that we
you know, we we we wouldn't go to the term,
But it never entered my First of all, I got
extended the year before, two years, okay, so my second
to LA at the end of my second my before
(06:39):
going into my last year, I had gotten extended. Okay,
I now had three more years, had three years on
my contract, they extended me. Okay. So Plus I was
at a school that had three coaches in seventy five years.
So I always felt like, yeah, I mean listen, yeah,
if I go you know, twenty, yeah that's not good.
(07:01):
But you know, we go twenty and eleven and go
to the n I t they gotta fire me for that.
So when I got the word that he wanted to
talk to me, all of a sudden, this thing came
all of a sudden. Now, maybe I'm an idiot. Maybe
I should have known better, you know what I mean,
But I was blindsided. And I know that may sound crazy,
(07:24):
but I was completely blindsided and it was like really,
So I get the phone call. Gene v Philippo was
the Boston College athletic director now at the time, and
he calls me, says, Steve, I just wanted you to know.
I think I think you're in trouble because I've in
(07:44):
trouble for what he said, and I think you're gonna
get fired. I said, what, get out of here? Why?
I mean really, I thought there was no way Villanova
would would would do that, and I resigned, you know,
you know, I resigned. Um, but I said I'm in trouble.
(08:07):
I said, how could that be? So he says, you know, listen,
I'm good friends with Bob Markham. Think about it. They're
looking for a guy you mask. He's really interested going
to you mass, going to you mass, what you're talking about,
going on, staying and going over all right, get a
phone call from President Secretary I wanted to see me
(08:30):
the next day, called me in and he's the guy
who hired me, and he said, uh, you know, I
was been debating this. I was thinking about letting you
have one more year. But I decided I think it's time.
I said, time for what he says, for you not
(08:53):
to be the coach here anymore. So I said, so
the athletic director, who was a nice guy, had nothing
to do with him. And I believe that Vincent cashtro
was in the office with him, three of us, and
he said, he turned you know, so I said, you're
firing And he said, did anybody ever say the word fire?
Did I say fire? He turns to the athletics right,
(09:15):
he says, I say fire. I said, oh, so I
can coach the team. He said no, No, you're not
gonna coach the team. He said, so not being fired,
He turned to go to I never said that, So
you know, you could get the drift there Doug. So
that was but what happened, and so I resigned and
(09:36):
I had three years left on my contract at the time. Now,
you gotta understand, contracts in those days were not now,
contracts were based salary, you know what I mean. In
those days, there was no uh you know, huge buy out.
There was no uh you know you were getting your
(09:56):
the sneaker money was separate, the TV money was separate.
So three years, it was three years, no question. It
was three years base salary. And that was it. And
I was My whole family was distraught. I mean I
thought I thought in the house that I had that
for sure. My daughter was gonna walk down the stairs
(10:17):
in her bridle down. That's how we felt. My wife
was she none of us ever forgotten it, and she
maybe even more of the rest of us never forgot it. Um.
So it was. It was. It was rough, very rough,
and so I probably I made a big mistake. I
(10:37):
should not have gone to you mass. I should have
sat out and a year, gone to TV for a
year and waited. Because I I had I had a
good name. Still, people thought I was pretty good coach,
and I won a lot of games, even though we
didn't win the tournament, but we want a lot of games,
so I probably would have gotten should have sat out
(10:58):
of year. And that's the problem with this business is
that you have to make really important decisions at very
emotional times. You know, it's a very emotional time, the
end of the season, and now you're gonna make this decision.
And so um, and I was on the type of
guy this is me? And I tell I tell my
(11:19):
son this, because he's in coaching coaches at Wagner. I said,
you gotta worry about your family, but you gotta worry
about your career. And I'll explain this. I don't want
to make it sound like I'm harsh or anything. I
was really concerned. I was really concerned about my daughter
who's going into high school, a staying for a year,
(11:39):
then pulling her out of high school and taking her
somewhere else. Guess what, Yes, it's not ideal, but she
would have been fine. She would have been fine. But
if you let those things come into the come into
your professional decisions too, it just makes things that much
more difficult. And I and I look back now and
I said, you know what, I was worried about that,
(12:00):
And that's one of the reason why I took the
um ses. I wanted to get the kids settled. He
can't worry about that. They'll be fine. You raised them good,
They'll be They'll It might be tough, it might be
some tough moments, might be some tears, no question. But
this profession is so hard. If you take all these
things into account, then it's really hard. It becomes that
(12:20):
much harder, and so you gotta try and simplify it
as much you can. I didn't, and I ran to
U Mask and U Mass was a very good school,
amates the beautiful town. But you know, the timing wasn't good.
They fired Bruiser, who they loved. And I don't blame him.
He had done a really good job there and he
was a Calipari guy. And here comes it. Just it
(12:43):
was never good. It was never good. So um, I
made an emotional decision at an emotional time, and I
should have sat out, and I probably would have got
myself clear my head, do TV or whatever for a year,
do nothing, and then you know it back in. But
I was worried about the family and the continuity for
(13:03):
the kids, and you know we live here now. Then
I gonna get a job somewhere else. We're gonna move
and she's gonna be a sophomore in high school. She's
gonna freak out. But you can't worry about those things. Yeah,
you gotta. I mean, obviously, if you gets sick, you're
gonna worry about that first. I get that. But stuff
like this, they'll they'll be fine, they'll be fine. Um
When did you know you shouldn't have taken it? Um?
(13:27):
After when when Bob markhom left Bob Marcom hired me
and he left after my first year and he went
he was gonna retire. He left to retire, and then
he ended up taking another job. But that's when I
and I had five athletic directors in the four years
I was there, So it was really upside down. And uh,
(13:50):
you know, I knew. I knew pretty quickly it was
gonna be tough. We didn't, you know, we got a
couple of kids in our first And here's the crazy
thing about you mask just to big a long story short. Um,
you know what happens, Doug. If you don't get a
great recruiting class your first year when you take over
a program, now you've got no chance to be good
till year four. You know what I mean. And what
happened was our first class we got good players, imploded
(14:12):
because one guy got caught stealing and some things happened.
We had to get rid of a couple of guys.
So we did start all over. So now I got
a great recruiting class my third year. So in year
four we go sixteen and eleven, we go nine, We
go nine and seven in the Atlantic ten all freshman Softwars.
(14:33):
We beat Yukon they had never mad Rudy Gay. We'd
beat Florida State by twenty five points. We beat the
g W, was ranked at g W with all freshman
soft Wars. And the guy fired me. And I remember
I was in this office. The day was fine, I said,
and I very blunt. I said, you know, you don't
(14:54):
know what you're looking at. You see look I understand.
He said, well, look, nobody's coming to the game. Do
you understand nobody's coming to the games? Because you guys
are looking at when John Caliparia people coming to these games.
They were number one in the country and people were
driving from Boston ninety miles in the middle of the
winter and snowstorms to get here. I get that. But
(15:17):
if you're just good, this is a tough place. And
and it's they're not coming because of me. They're not
coming because we're not good yet. But we're gonna be
really good. We got Stefan Lastman as a sophomore, We
got ray Sian Freeman as a sophomore. These guys are
gonna be the two best players in the league. And
they ended up being that. And no, he fires me,
and I said, you know what, and then the whole
thing just blew up. And then Travis FOURD came in,
(15:39):
and you know, he went to the n I T
three times and he got fifteen million at your alma mater.
He got out. He got out, got out quick when
and Lanning get Landing, get out, get out of as
as as quickly as you can. Fox Sports Radio has
the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all
(16:00):
of our shows at Fox sports Radio dot com and
within the I Heart Radio app search f s R
to listen live. Obviously that you said, how the nova
thing still hurts? What about was it? What was what
was the How would you describe the emotion when they
let you go at umss um? Yeah? Different, I kind
(16:26):
of I my whole attitude towards being on the line
changed when I was a U Mass because I'd gotten
you know, what happened to Villanova happened, and so I
I my last year a U Mass, I was a mess,
you know. I mean the pressure was really and we was,
like I said, we were sixteen eleven. We had us
(16:48):
and if if we'd have made the N I T
were probably a game short of the N I T,
they would have had to keep me because that was
in the contract. But h um, you know, I did
something stupid there. I renegotiated by contract after my third year. Uh,
because they you know, I should have just told him,
you know what you want to get rid of me,
(17:09):
now just pay me? And I didn't do that. So
it was you know, I made a lot of mistakes,
there's no question, but I wanted to coach and that's
all I cared about. And I really thought we were
gonna I really thought that we finally had the program
in the right direction. I know we did, I know
we did. And uh uh, the the emotion was different
(17:29):
then because now I'm sitting there saying I might be done.
You know, I didn't. After after Villanova, I wasn't worried
about being done. Um, Like I said, I could have
sat out of year and I got it. I think
I could have got something good, really good and uh,
you know, because we had a good reputation, we didn't
(17:50):
have uh violations and graduated everybody and you know whatever. Um.
But now after you match, I was like, I could
be done, you know, unless I want to go coach it.
You know, I'm certainly done from the level I want
to coach at. UM do I wanna you know? And
my wife would say, well, if you really want to coach,
(18:11):
you'll go coach it. Uh you know a school in
the Northeast Conference or something like that. I said, you know, yes,
and no, I said, it's like you know you It's
like it's like you taught at Harvard and now you're
gonna go teach community college. You know what I mean.
I don't know if it's that easy to do. I
had guys, I had pros, you know, would be in
a bunch of them, and it was like, I don't
(18:32):
know if I want to do that. And that's when
I decided to try the TV thing. And you know,
thankfully it's it's worked out. CB has been great to me,
and that's kind of where it is. You know, like
you do play more golf now. You're a different guy
now then than you are even when you first got
into TV and radio. But I I always think, like, guy,
(18:56):
it's gonna be a heart for former. It's hard for
me and I haven't been a Division one coach to
be there on the sideline because you actually missed not
just the winning locker room, you kind of missed the
losing locker room as well. Like that misery. But you're
in it together, and how do we fix it? What?
What are those emotions like, especially when you're doing it,
you know at the level you're doing it with the
(19:18):
n c A tournament, in somebody's tournament championships. You know,
you you the thing that you missed. You know, you're You're.
I was part of a team from when I was
twelve years old, so all I knew was was a
locker room and being part of a team. And I've
been fortunate my whole life to spend basically you know,
except for the years I had I was teaching in
high school. But I was coaching high school, so I
mean this is all I ever did, so you know,
(19:40):
the first five years out, We're tough, you know what
I mean, especially when September rolls around, was like, oh
what am I gonna do? And and I you know,
and uh, it's gotten easier. And now I'm at the point,
to be honest with you, Doug, if somebody came to
me and said, hey, you want to I would say, no,
(20:01):
I've gotten two used to a life of not worried
about anything three and sixty five days a year. If
I had to go back I see my son now, Wagner.
If I had to go back to that and start
worrying about something three d sixty five days a year,
now I'm sixty eight, I'm not I'm certainly not thinking
of doing that now. So it's gotten better, do I say?
But I still miss you know, like uh, Wagner beat
(20:23):
Temple a couple of weeks ago at Temple and I
was there for the game and it was Donald Copeland's
first game the head coach there as the head coach,
and it was in the locker room after the game,
and it was it was unbelievable, you know what I mean,
Corn sold on him, and I mean it was just
being in that locker room was like, uh, you know,
I don't know you you know you've been in those things.
(20:46):
It's something that's so special, and you're right, it's also
specially being in a losing locker room because you're sharing
something you're so emotionally vested with all these guys. It's
a being part of a team. You cannot look why
is Tom Brady still doing what he's doing? Because he
loves being part of a team. That's why, no question,
no question. That feeling last night, we like we're recording
(21:09):
this on Tuesday, that feeling of leading a comeback, and
he saw him like running off the field right, because
there had to be a moment early in that game
they're down sixteen to three where he's like, what am
I doing? You know what am I doing here? You know,
going through a divorce, he's in his forties, he's got
more championships than God, what am I doing? Then you'll
(21:33):
win the game. You're like, let's do it again, Like,
I'll do it a y'all's a lifetime, can't because because
the energy of finding out like it's a it's kind
about a math problem, right, figuring out how and then
you all of a sudden you complete the math problem
with a bunch of guys. He's like, we did it,
let's go do it again. It's so amazing, amazing. It's
a drug. It's a drug, I say, I say, you
(21:55):
know now, I don't want using the term is obviously
it's a it's a it's a bad drug. And I
see it's like crack, it's you know what I mean,
it's I guess that's a that's a crack. Does the
people just you know, you can't you can't walk go
away from it. But that's kind of how it is
the coaching. I mean again, a lot of this is
(22:16):
from talking to you and our time together. But I
felt like my dad used to tell about all the time.
It's interesting. It doesn't feel like there's the same camaraderie
in the profession that there used to be. Now I
could be wrong because I'm in California and it's not guys.
I know Philly guys are still really really close, like
(22:37):
they do an amazing job. Uh, there's a bond there
even though they're competitive with each other. Um, but is
it is it from yours by your estimation? The same
as when you were coming up in terms of the
camaraderie in coaches, even when you're at rival schools. You know,
I think, I mean, I think those guys in the
(23:00):
Big East are relatively tight. Um. Now that's probably the
because I live in Big East Territory and most of
the games I do for CBS and CBS Sports Network
a Big East game, So I think they gotta I
think those guys are relatively tight. I had to say so.
I don't know how it is in the rest of
the country, but I think those guys, I mean, I
(23:20):
think Jay had a pretty good relationship with a lot
of those guys. Um, And I know Ed Cooley is
really tight with Sean Miller, So I think that those
guys have a pretty good relationship. Do uh, what do
you think Jay does well? He's doing a game with
meats to borrow night, the Villanova Penn game. Where will
(23:42):
they be as good as you and I were together? Ah,
that remains to be seen. Are we're gonna have a
debate about seeming the ball? I don't know about that
we have you know, those are the things that came up. Well,
you don't, you don't. You don't. You didn't teach you
guys to see in the ball? Yes, I did. That's
what we're talked about. But I'm saying that's on time.
I had that conversation on air with you. We're talking
about you gotta seeing the ball when they catch it.
(24:06):
They just get it there somehow. I think they I
think they practice it when they're holding when they're holding
the basketball. You know, it's interesting. I won't I won't
say the name of the executive in but there was
one time wherever you and I kind of got into
it on air over something, and it was like halftime.
We both like took our headsets off and walked away,
and he came up to me and he's like, are
(24:27):
you okay? Are you okay? And I go, yeah, I'm fine.
Why He's like, well, you know you and coach and
was like, but that's kind of how basketball people are, like,
you know, you'll argue about things right and get mad,
which not really mad, you just want to win the argument,
you know. And I thought it was really it was
like I was my favorite times when we would have
the like the coach and the player and you like,
(24:49):
you don't know what you're talking about, and I said, no,
you don't know. You like that. That was it was good.
But it's it is interesting that none basketball people don't
understand or maybe can't sort of grasp the It's not
an argument because you don't like the other person. It's
just an argument because that's you're just kind of hot
blooded and you want to be right. That's truly what
(25:10):
it's about. And because there's so many ways to skin
a cat in this business. You've got you got, you got,
you got Bobby Knight in the Hall of Fame. He
wouldn't play Zone in a zillion years. You've got Jim
Beeheim and all of Fame. He wouldn't play man and
man in a zillion years. You know what I mean.
There's just so many different ways to skin a cat.
For sure, that's not a good term either, but you
know what I mean. It's but now listen, no one
(25:32):
thinks they're actually skinning a cat. Not offensive anyway. You've
gotta be careful what you say. I understand, I understand,
I understand, I totally understand. I don't want you to
lose your profitable job. Okay, So who is who's the
hands down funniest guy during your time in the business. Oh? Wow,
(25:54):
hands down funniest guy. Like as I would say, in
in media. This is not in coaching. I'm asking you
about coach in media. Like, it's pretty hard to stop.
I nag, right, Like the guy, it's just funny, and
it's not even telling jokes. He's just funny. And I
know of other people that are enjoyable, like most of
(26:16):
everybody you're with are enjoyable to be around. And there
are guys that are are funny or whatever, but no
one to that level. Um. I mean in my time
around coaches, I mean Mike Dean's and he's a nut,
but an amazing story storyteller. Fran McCaffrey's a nut, but
an amazing storyteller. Um My dad used to tell me
(26:38):
about Judd Heathcote and how funny Judd Heathcote uh was.
But in your circle, who's the guy who's like he
holds court. He's the new age Valvano in terms of
entergy entertainment value when you're around. Yeah, I mean, I
don't know if he's new age, but when I was
coaching p J. Carlssim was definitely up there. Yeah, he
(27:01):
was one of those guys. I think it cool. He
is a lot like that. Yeah, it cool. He is
a very you know, positive funny guy. Um, those are
the two that I can think of the top of
my head. Should guy should coaches should be would be
a prerequisite to coach high school ball. I said, because
you start in high school. My coach, coach Sutton started
in high school. Frances start in high school. My dad
(27:23):
started high school. Hube Brown starting high school. It feels
like there is something to the to the coaching at
that level which gives you something that other guys don't have. Yeah,
I think I think that's true for a lot of things.
You know, first of all, you know, uh, you have
kids that aren't obviously aren't as good at players, So
(27:44):
you learn not to take anything for granted. You learn
to try about trying to develop guys from scratch. You learn,
you know, I know, for me, I was only an
assistant in college level for four years, which is relatively little.
When I got my job in Manhattan College though, when
I was thirty four, you know, I was. I I
(28:05):
ran a bench, you know, as a high school coach,
you know what I mean, I called timeouts. I So
when I got the job in Manhattan, I was. I
think that definitely helped me be ready. I think a
lot of these guys assistance, not that they can't be successful.
Of course, a million of this have been successful as
head coaches. I think it helps them if they'd have
coach in high school just to get used to, you know,
having disciplined and having to call timeouts and having to
(28:27):
bench this guy or do it. So there's a lot
of there's a lot to be said of what you
can learn coaching high school team. You mentioned um sitting
a guy out, that that's a fast thing. One I
had a conversation with a coach and I told him,
like coach settings, I never get his phrase to me,
which is like I'll lose this game if you you know,
I don't care, I'll lose the game. Okay, we're gonna
(28:49):
do it my way, right, And so many coaches and
I can think of another coach he's at up an
a C C school who at his previous school, like
he was suspending I for a half a game, and
I was like, what are you doing it just to
spend him the whole game? Leave him home or better yet,
bring him dress him. I mean, don't dress him, make
him sit on the bench and watch everybody else play
(29:11):
like you want to you want to punish a kid,
make him watch him, don't don't, don't leave him home,
bring him, let him watch everybody else play like that
will piss him off. And he wouldn't do it. And
I was, like, I told him. The coach said, there
was like, no, you gotta be willing to lose a game,
you know, to get him do your way? Like are
you willing to sacrifice the game or even two to
get a guy to get people to do it your way?
(29:32):
And that doesn't seem to be the case as much. Um,
what's that balance like when you're the head coach knowing that,
all right, if I'm gonna lose this, you know, I
might lose the team if I don't sit him, but
I'm gonna lose the game if I don't play him. Hey,
I made I won't I won't say any names, but
I made a I made a big mistake at you,
mass um, accepting some things from a guy that I
(29:59):
shouldn't have And uh, you know, because you're thinking, well,
this guy is one of our best players. But you
know what Doug and I told my sons. I said,
I said, the good thing. My father was a florist.
He couldn't he came from Greece, he couldn't really help
me with these decisions. I tell my sons always keep
this in mind. Nothing, nothing is more important in the
(30:24):
game of basketball than chemistry. Nothing, not talent, not nothing.
So don't ever make a decision because a guy is
really good that's going to affect the chemistry and good team.
Could you think that him being good is gonna matter
more because it's not. And uh, I should have bounced
(30:45):
the guy and I didn't, and uh, and finally in
the end, he gets hurt. My last year, I can't play,
and all of a sudden we take off. So you
know it's Uh, that's a tough one. And I will
tell any young coach that don't let anything get in
(31:08):
the way of the chemistry. If this guy's not toing
the line, if this guy's coming late, if this guy
is doing whatever, if this guy's talking back, guess what, well,
nobody ever talk back to me. So I don't want
to say. I don't want to make a sound like
that's what it was. I was. I was, I was
one of these guys done my assistance. This is a
funny story. I would drive the nuts. I would take
(31:29):
the guy out of the game, right, so the guy
would naturally took kids would make a face. You know,
they don't want to get take it out of the game.
So I would say, hey, don't make a face. Don't
make so my assister tell me, coach, why are you
looking at him? You took him out of the game.
Don't look at him because you know you're getting You're
getting mad for no reason. Don't look at him. Just
take him out of the game. Be like Jim bad.
(31:49):
You take him out. They're all mad whatever, you don't
even care. That's how you should be. But you know
it's uh, don't let anything affect the chemistry. Ever. Yeah,
that they're taking them out and not look at him,
I don't agree with. Like I think like a lot
of times they know why they came out. But that's
like that's the moment where you can where you can
(32:09):
actually coach them, right. And I mean, like, look, jas
thing is they just say attitude and it's telling you
your attitude is not right. It's kind of an amazing
thing that they were able to tap into it. Nova
um but um. But it's you know, it's it's interesting,
Like I want I want to see how you react.
I wanted to do. That's how I was. My assistant
(32:31):
would say, coach, coach, you know all, it doesn't get
you upset. Don't look at them they want I said, well,
that's what I do. You know, Kyle's gonna go through
kind of that same thing that you went through. It
at you mass right, like, man, that's no job now.
And I know they've had injuries and they just got
wit More back, but man, Jay right, No, it's what's impossible.
(32:55):
It's impossible, you know what I mean. Yeah, I mean,
don't be wrong that it's it's possible to do probably
impossible to do what he did again. And so he's
just gonna have to you know what, what do we
always say? You gotta be yourself, do the best you can.
He's a great guy, he's a great coach, but he's
(33:18):
he is definitely in an unenviable situation, as is John Shire.
Maybe maybe worse for Kyle Neptune because you feel like
Duke has the wherewithal to keep even look at the
recruiting class he got and yeah, Villanova can't win more,
but they got four of them, you know, so it's
(33:39):
a little easier at two. I know, it's not gonna
be easy. You're following Mike Trajetski, I get it, but
a little bit easier, I think than what Kyle Neptune has.
Can you believe Bahan's still doing it? That's unbelievable, unbelievable.
Why Why? Because you know, here's a guy and I say,
he is in sweat the small stuff, and so for him,
(34:03):
it's like, you know, it's a good way from the
I'm gonna saying he's just passing time. The guy coaches,
but he's always been a guy that you know, I
don't he was never watching you know, ten game fields,
and and he'll never dispute it because he knows it's true.
They don't do shoot arounds. They were like one of
the first time they don't really they don't really scout
(34:25):
because because no one really plays the way that they play,
so they don't really scout because like, what's the point.
That's why, honestly, I feel like they get better in
the second half of games because they're scouting the first half,
like the first half, they're trying to see what you're
doing against their own and now they actually you know,
do some coaching at halftime, but still to have to
(34:46):
go to the office every day, you have to do
practice every day, to have to do all the media
you do, and like, look, I get it, you get
he can do Florida most the rest of the year.
But this is a it's a three sixty five job,
even if you're not grinding the way everybody else grinds. Like, man,
I was sure like his kids get done. He's done,
(35:07):
you know. Now he's like he I don't. I don't
really get it. Yeah, I mean. And not only that,
to have had the career he's yet and now to
have to listen to like people be mad and kill you.
That that definitely I wouldn't do. But you know, seventy
eight years old, you know he's a he's a different guy.
There's no question. That's unbelievable. Have you passed him as
(35:29):
a golfer yet? No, that will never happen. Never you guys,
we're time to play golf. You listen, Doug. Let me
explain this to you like I tell like I tell
friends of mine all the time. I said, understand this.
They said, why I can't, Why aren't you any better?
I said, Here's what I'll tell you. When I was
a kid, I played basketball ten hours a day. I
was a Division three player. I could have played twenty
(35:52):
eight hours a day, and I was never gonna be
a Division one player. It's called talent. This is the
limited talent that I have in golf, and that's who
I am. So that's it. Yeah, everybody thinks the golf
is just I don't get enough reps. What's your what's
your biggest flaw with golf? Can't drive it, you know,
weak drives, don't hit it far. That's that's my biggest problem.
(36:16):
My short games. Okay, I put pretty good, but don't
you know, I can't drive it if if if I
get one off to on or I'm like the ecstatic,
can't drive it. Uh. Favorite place you called a game?
You know. I I never did a TV game there,
(36:37):
but I did uh a radio game at Alan Fieldhouse.
That was cool. I enjoyed that big time. Uh I did.
I did radio from Cameron Indoor that was not not
as good because you're up top. Yeah you know what
I mean. You're in the bird's nest up top, so
(36:59):
that's not as exactly you're on the floor. And I
did a game at I did a game on radio
also at the Assembly Hall in Indiana. That was pretty good. Um,
the Palestra to some to a non Philly guy and
you're obviously New York guy who became SIMS with Philly sports.
But what is other than the cool architecture? What is
(37:22):
it about the palestra that makes it makes it cool? Well,
what made it cool was the thing that made the
palesture the plesture was that you'd have you know, four
sets of fans in this building that you couldn't fit
another person in. And it was so loud. Um and yes,
but the architecture is a big party, but it just
(37:42):
loud and it looks like a cathedral, like you know,
I mean on the outside it kind of could be
a church. And uh, but I think it was the
the atmosphere on the inside that really really made it, uh,
you know special when the place was packed and you know,
it was a shame. The other day there was a game.
(38:02):
Uh they had a big five doubleheader. I don't know
if there were three thousand people there. It really was,
you know, tough to watch. Why do you want why
has it gotten this way? I mean if it affects Philly,
like Philly was the last kind of Bastion. Right, it
was the last city that really cared about college ships.
Why are we at that point? Um? I think a
(38:26):
big thing was was what Jay Wright and Villanova did
to the Big Five. I mean in the old days,
and those were always fifty fifty games. Even if when
Villanova played Penn that was a tough game. Villanova played
Sat Jels, that was a tough game. I think j
won like thirty nine of his last forty Big Five games.
(38:46):
I think that that that hurt the Big Five so much. Now,
why didn't they keep up with Villanova? I mean, you know,
Villanova just went to a different level. And I think
that that and that never happened in the Big Five. Now,
that's what's happened in the Big Five, that Dulnov was
going to a different level. Huh Huh's interesting? Interesting of that.
(39:11):
If if you could, if you could change one thing
about college basketball, what would it be? Oh, I would
change the transfer portal for sure. Now what would you do?
I would go back to you gotta you know, you
can leave, but you gotta sit out of here, and
and and and and forget all these waivers and everything else.
Like it used to be hard and fast. You can leave.
(39:34):
I'm not gonna stop you from leaving, but you gotta
city here. I mean, it's not like it's not like
we used to tell kids they couldn't transfer. They could
always transfer, but you have the city here. That's all.
That's what I would do. I think that changes everything,
you know, And and the worst part about the arguments
is like, well, you know, he's transferred to be closer
to home, Like, okay, so you get a year to
(39:56):
actually go home and see your folks, you know, and
like nobody saying you can't transfer home. You just can't
play basketball right away, right, That's a that's that's that's
the main thing that I would do for sure. And
then I mean, I don't know how it's easy to
say gets some control over this inn I L thing.
I don't know, you know what I mean. It's like, uh,
(40:18):
that's a whole other thing that that so so, so
here's my here here's my thoughts. You cannot collect penny
on n I L until you've actually played a season
for the school. That would be a good start, okay,
So just just again, it's the idea of that's a
(40:39):
good idea. You don't have a name image like this.
When you come into a school, right you play, you
earn a value. Somebody wants to give you money to
represent a car dealership. Right it also and you know
then if you leave again, the clock starts over at
the new school. You can transfer, but you can't get
a penny until you play the year. That's a good idea.
(41:00):
That's a really good We're solving the world's problems. Laugh,
that's what we're We're solving world's world's problems. Um uh okay,
last thing, Um, your favorite memory of calling an n
c A tournament game can be anything. Your favorite memory, Um, oh,
(41:21):
it's gotta be when huh um, Ron Hunter's son made
the shot against Baylor and then Ron fell off the chair,
Ron fell office a scooter. Yes, that's gotta be it. Yes, yeah,
it's the it's the little stuff, right, it's the it's
the time move tween games. It's the the second day
(41:46):
after the games where you get to just meet with
the players like that stuff, and then those moments. I
remember my my first n c A tourman game. First
one I did was Wichita beat Pittsburgh. The second one
was Gonzaga. They beat Southern but with four minutes and
thirty two seconds ago in the game, the game was
tied and it's in you it's insult Lake. And I'm
(42:08):
doing the game with Spirodidas and We're sitting there going
like hitting each other on the arm, like, holy sh it,
we're gonna call the first sixteen one like this is unbelievable.
So and you know, all of a sudden, you know,
everybody rises to their feet, southerns bringing the ball up
the court. And I was like, and I said to him,
(42:28):
my airs, like there are twelve thounds, Like it's like
twelve thousand Southern fans just showed up, you know, like
you know you've been on that with the old dominion.
Everybody's cheering against you, hearing for the for the upset,
and every yet we got a break. And he looks
at me like, and you know, spirows like the greatest
chill is dude ever. He looks at me and he's like,
all right, if this happens, we cannot fund this up, okay,
(42:52):
And like I'm good, Like whatever, dude, He's like, no, no, no,
we can't funk this up anyway. Because Zach end up
winning barely and then losing Wichita the next day. But
those those things are so much fun to do, no question,
so much fun to do. Um. Well, listen, you've been
more than gracious for your time. Whatever the over here's
the here's the great thing about where you are in life,
(43:13):
which I think you're you're getting is like whatever you're
over under is on what the possibilities have. Your career
was like you've hit the over fifteen times over right? Yes? Right?
Like get that you call games now? You coached it
a couple of grade schools. You went to the n
c A tournament, you put guys in the lottery you
want to be. You won the Big East tournament, right like,
(43:34):
there's a there's not a lot of room on the
grave stone if you if you and not that I'm
trying to cover you up with dirt. No, I appreciate that, Doug.
I do. My wife tells me all the time, you
know what I mean. I always look at it like, uh,
I say, you know I was there and I didn't
just quite get or get what I wanted. And she's like,
(43:57):
look where you grew up. You were raised by too immigrants,
and you've got to do this your whole life. So
he tells me, I don't look at it that well
all the time, sir. No, I'm listening. I'm the same way,
like right, like I was on that Final four set
two years and like you know, like it's really hard
to watch. And then I'll get somebody like, hey, yeah,
but you're you made it. You were you actually did that,
(44:19):
you know you actually did that thing, Like yeah, that's true,
and I get to do it still with Westwood. Westwood.
All right, I will see you on the road. You
got time, uh, and let's play golf this year. Absolutely
be well, my man, you too see your brother. Oh
that was awesome. Thank coach Lapis for for joining me,
(44:39):
for giving me so much of his time and energy.
I truly appreciate it. I remember. You can listen to
the Doug Gottlieb Show daily three to five time. There's
the end Ones podcast. Tell friends about this one. This
one I think is I'm pretty happy about It's pretty good.
I'm gottlie This is all all
Host
Doug Gottlieb
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