40s and Free Agents: Mina Kimes’ Favorite Players in the 2025 NFL Draft

NFL Network analysts Gregg Rosenthal and Daniel Jeremiah are joined by ESPN’s Mina Kimes on “40s and Free Agents” in the countdown to the 2025 NFL Draft. The trio shares their favorite players to watch in this draft class, and debate how a prospect’s traits are weighed in the selection process as opposed to college production.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to forties and free Agents. It is crossover week
here between NFL Media and ESPN, so we've got one
of their biggest stars, Mina Kaimes, joining Daniel and I.
Of course, you know we're repaying the favor sending one
of our biggest stars DJ to NFL Live later in
the week, and I'm also here. Welcome to the show, Nina.

(00:28):
It's good to see you.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
I'm so happy to be here. I've been listening, first
of all, really enjoying this view element of your podcast.
I don't know whose side to take, because you guys
have that kind of married couple bickering thing going on,
and I was thinking I could come on and like
take a side, but I'm friends with both of you,
and I really don't want to pick a side, but I.

Speaker 3 (00:51):
Do think you. Doesn't it say a lot about Greg
that he tries to dress like he's in a Seattle
Grungeman just to try and curry favor.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
Like that's a little DJ as always played into the
network audience, not even thinking about the podcast audience out there.
But I'm just trying to be.

Speaker 3 (01:07):
Close your eyes and imagine every flannel we were in
high school, and then you all know exactly what Greg
looks like.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
Everything old is new again. And it's not a fair
fight between me and DJ on this show because this
is his time of the season. Like, we're only a
week out from the NFL Draft, so we're gonna really
skip sort of talking about the NFL side of things,
at least to the start of the show. And I thought,
as we've gotten deep into this draft process, obviously DJ

(01:32):
has been talking about these guys forever, Mina has been
studying them. At this point in the process, who are
the players we're most excited to talk about that you
never get sick of talking about that you love watching
on tape. So we're keeping it simple to start the show.
We're just going to do favorite players to watch in
this draft. And Mina, you are a guest, why don't
you get us going? I'm curious who you go with.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
Well, this is a player that I have definitely texted
DJ about, which, by the way, this is my relationship
with him. Is this time of year. As soon as
the NFL season ends and I start cramming these players,
I just text DJ, oh my god, this guy, Oh
my god, this guy, and he very graciously replies, Yes,
that guy I've been watching him for months and he
probably knows where I'm going with this, because this is

(02:15):
the first one where I felt like that Kyle Hamilton
like love affair watching his tape. That's John Campbell, the
off ball linebacker out of Alabama. I love him. I
haven't felt this way about an off ball linebacker maybe
since Roquan I was trying to think of the last
prospect guys where I've really felt like they had he

(02:38):
had the tools, the physical and mental tools to become
a special middle linebacker in the NFL, and I feel
that way about Campbell. The athleticism is insane. I know
he showed out at the combine, but it also shows
up all over his tape. True sideline to sideline ability.
That's the aspect that reminds me of Rokwand he's a
plus pass rusher. You saw that on display you game

(03:00):
and other games, and he can cover. I think there's
still elements that need refinement. As any line line marker
is a really hard position to play in the NFL.
It's going to take a second in terms of, you know,
the route recognition, diagnosing some of the misdirection in the backfield,
that kind of thing. He can be a little bit
over aggressive, but DJ I just feel like his ceiling
is up there with any young linebacker scene lately.

Speaker 3 (03:23):
Yeah, two points, which I'm a huge fan of his game,
as we've discussed in the past, But I always love
length off the ball. Like to me, everything with the
shell coverage you're gonna see like that just makes windows
shrink when you can, you know, use your length and
clog lanes. People think about length, Oh, as a pass rusher,
you know in coverage, you know it can help. No,

(03:45):
this is like you as a zone dropper. That's just
that's a huge asset. To have to navigate around that
offensively is very challenging. So I love that about him.
I love the fact that the guy is an edge
rusher in high school, so he has that background. So
you know, as a blitzer, he's dynamic, he's very comfortable
with that. But yeah, he's such a good football player
that when he got to Alabama with two you know,
first round edge players, they're like, we still have to

(04:06):
figure out a way to get this guy on the field.
Like that. That says a lot, not just what you
see on the tape, but what you hear in his
background and how impressive he was there.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
I am annoyed by mean on this, So I guess
he's going to take d just DJ side because I
wanted to take to Hot Camp. I only have so
many hot draft takes. Not that liking to Hot Campbell
as a hot draft take, but I'm with you. Like
watching him track down, you know, running backs and quarterbacks.
Like he told me he'd be the ideal guy that
you'd want going up against the mobile quarterback to just

(04:35):
make sure he's not getting to the edge. She reminded
me a little bit of Navarro Bowman and any of
the things that you look at where Okay, it's going
to take him a little bit to recognize routes and
things like that. We talked about this earlier. Yeah, that's
true of every off ball linebacker in the entire college
football landscape. So that's not going to be different for him.

(04:55):
And this draft is so interesting because I feel like
after the top four were anyone could go in the
top seven or so and it wouldn't be that shocking,
Like why couldn't Jah hot Cambell go that high? I
feel like he could exactly crazy.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
I'm looking to see, Yeah, look at the draft, I mean,
he's my ninth player, so I'm right. Yeah, if he
was the fifth pick in the draft, that wouldn't that
doesn't floor me. He'd be a fun he'd be a
fun chess piece to work with. Now he's a little
beat up, which I think if you if you draft
a linebacker from Alabama like beat up is going to

(05:32):
make his way its way into the report because that's
just how physical they play in practice as well as
as the conference they play in. So maybe that could
ding him a little bit. He's not healthy going through
the end of the process here. But gosh, his tape
is really good.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
All right, DJ, you give us one of your favorite
players that they you've had a chance to watch.

Speaker 3 (05:50):
Yeah, and we've talked about him, but Jday Barron to
me has been kind of my my guy through this
process of the tape is so good and he could
play anywhere. But I you know, to me, just leave
him as a nickel, let him, let him cover in there,
let him be a forced player against the run where
he does not miss tackles. Let him be a dynamic blitzer.
He takes the football away. Now there's a little there's

(06:13):
little intricacies that are a little different in his game
than Cooper de Gene and then Brian Branch, but they're
definitely from the same family. And I thought the league
unfairly punished those two players and they slid to the
second round. And I think this is an opportunity for
the league to have a do over on Baron. I
just love the way he plays.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yeah, I was gonna say those two players come to mind.
It's not a comp with Den Witherspoon with the Seahawks
per se, but in terms of thinking about like ceiling
and regarding that position in the cornerbacks with maybe who
can play only inside, but how much they can still
impact a game. He brings that same physicality they desire

(06:54):
for hitting the The way he closes on the ball
is really special, I think. I think guys, if I
was to say, what's the difference between him and a Weatherspoon,
he's a little I'm a little less confident in him
in man coverage. You saw Witherspoon in college had like
some really good reps on the perimeter, and Barren at
times I thought he gave up us a little bit

(07:15):
too much underneath. But I really just love the way
he plays. I feel like for him the question for
a team and how high he goes is just going
to be like do you think he can play outside?
And if not, how high would you value it? Nickel?
In today's NFL, I.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
Feel like you would value it almost the same as outside.
Maybe maybe you would disagree, DJ or especially in this draft.
And I'll keep going back to it where it's you're
just looking for guys who can come in and contribute
at a high level, Like that's that's a starting position.
Did did GM's look at that differently? DJ?

Speaker 3 (07:45):
It has been. It has been a starting position for
a long time. But they speak out of both sides
of their mouth because it's in the room like it
is its own position. It is a full time player
in the league right now. And yet we get in
the draft and every year these inside guys fall and
then they end up, not all of them, some of
them picking off passes and winning Super Bowls. And then
you sit there and go like, maybe maybe you guys
should have you know, believed your own words about the

(08:08):
value of that position. So I don't know, it frustrates
the credit out of me if you can't.

Speaker 1 (08:12):
Tell M and I like that you are trying to
be the change that you want in the world. DJ
putting them out podcast real.

Speaker 3 (08:19):
Quick, real quick. I got a text. This is totally
off the subject, but I just thought of it. I'm
going to read you this text real quick again. This
is just totally uh, totally unrelate, but I think you're
two of the people that would appreciate this. This is
from John Spanouse for the Chargers. This is the end
of his text. I should add, as a co chairman
of the Future of Football Committee, we were the ones

(08:40):
pushing the virtual line to gain measurement. I apologize for
all the grief you've taken over your podcast name. So
I got an official apology for move the Sticks now
being an antiquated name. So I just wanted to get
that out there.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
Are you Are you going to change it or you're
sticking with it?

Speaker 3 (08:54):
No, No, those sticks are still there. They're backup. They're
not necessarily h you know they're not, but they're those
gentlemen are still going to be holding those sticks way
in the periphery if if they're needed, if they're called upon,
they'll be ready.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
All right. I want you guys to go more than me.
I want to hear what you say on these but
I will throw out one favorite player because I finally
got finished with the wide receivers this week, and I
don't see him on DJ's top fifty. So I am
picking a bone with him, and that's Kyle Williams of
Washington State. I was just watching these wide receivers one
after another after another, and I really like a lot

(09:25):
of them. I totally am with you about Matthew Golden.
Why you would view him as your number one receiver
after Travis Hunter. There's a lot of good receivers, but
he was the first one that I looked at a
little bit like Brian Thomas Junior a year ago, where
I thought, just he moves different, and I understand why
maybe he's not going to go in the top twenty picks,
but I don't understand why he doesn't have a little
more pop, because man, he is beating guys off the

(09:47):
scrimmage so fast. His footwork and beating press for someone
his size seems so incredible. He's got yack, he's got attitude.
I would draft him just for the touchdown celebrations. Give
me that. With Kyle Williams, like he just seems like
he is going to translate, I don't get why he's
not a top fifty player. So I'll start with DJ

(10:08):
just like what what what? What gives here? Like, well,
what is he missing?

Speaker 3 (10:12):
I like Kyle Williams. I like him a lot, and
and the Senior Bowl was a great example what you're
talking about. And you know you watch those cutups there.
His releases are as good as anybody. He can separate
at the top. The name that I wrote down when
I watched him was he gave me like an Emmanuel
Sanders vibe, like a young Emmanuel Sanders, just because of
his quickness and separation and the way he runs routes.

(10:33):
He's not going to be the most physical guy, but
he's he's a winner. Like he can win at the
line of scrimmage, he can win at the top of route.
So I think he's gonna go. My My guess is
he's going to go early. Third round. But yeah, Greg,
we see guys go on that range all the time,
where the next year we sitting there going why the
heck didn't this guy go faster? I would love nothing
more than to fight you, but I really I can't

(10:55):
fight you on this one.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Did he run only like he ran like a four
to four right, believe it the com something I remember
thinking it would be.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
He ran.

Speaker 3 (11:03):
He ran a four to four flat.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yeah, so I okay, I thought it would be faster.
It was kind of like the inverse Golden where Golden
ran a lot faster than I thought his tape looked
to me, Kyle Williams, that's a little slower than his
tape looks. I'll throw something out with him. DJ's a
way on this yesterday and the NFL Live we had
to do like wide receiver team fits. I threw him

(11:27):
to the Chargers because I don't think they're going to
go wide receiver early in the draft. They desperately need speed.
I feel like he is that classic deep Z pardon me,
who can stretch the field create some room for Lad
McConkie to work underneath. What do you think of that fit?

Speaker 3 (11:40):
I like it to me. That was when I left
the stadium in Houston in the playoffs, so it was like,
this team has to get faster and more dynamic, and
Lad McConkie's unbelievable. But imagine him with either a field
stretching tight end or a vertical over the top receiver.
It's just going to create more space for him. So
I think that's just like a production multiplier there. Not

(12:01):
only would a guy that can get up the top
like Kyle would have his own production, but I think
it would be great for a lad.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
I mean, he was playing with on an offense that
was tough to watch, with a quarterback that was not
putting the ball really in the right spot for him,
and he was making those catches. So you talk about strength,
but to me, he was good at the catchway. I'm
all in on Kyle Williams. Maybe I was just just
hoping for a guy that could be my guy, and
I finally got to him, and I was excited about
Kyle Williams. Let's hear from you mean another favorite player

(12:29):
to watch?

Speaker 2 (12:31):
Okay, I'm gonna skip Carsons Schwuessire. That just did a
linebacker but I like him do And I'm going to
do a corner who is a little bit well, I
don't I think he could bear end of the first
maybe being the second that's Trey Miss. Yeah, we'll miss
the corner. So I guess the commonality between Campbell is
I just love long arms and it is the first

(12:55):
thing you noticed DJ when you watch train. I mean,
I just the way he uses his lengths to disrupt,
and also the timing of it, by the way, because
sometimes guys with long arms can get caught interfering. At
the college level, you really didn't see that. I thought
he did a really good job of being cautious and
timing it well. I also like the fact that he

(13:16):
is I think coverage agnostic. You could play himpressed man,
they played him off. I thought he was good at both.
There are still elements of his game that need refinement.
I think some tackling issues show up. That's like every
cornerback in the draft. But he's decent against the run too,
and he's got just I feel like the size that
a lot of teams need for an outside corner right now.

Speaker 3 (13:38):
Yeah, I think I had him going to the Rams
bottom and it just felt like kind of a Rams
Rams type player too, because he's just he's instinctive. He's
been through a full process, like you've seen him. He's
got a long track record. He's gone against elite players,
so you've got a chance to make a pretty good
evaluation on him. I go back through my notes, and

(14:00):
you know, outside fluid smooth, the only question I had
was off the LSU game because they ran away from
him a little bit there, So I was like, Okay,
how much like pure deep speed recovery speed does he have?
And he ran four four three, So I mean, at
least from a time standpoint, he cleaned that up. But
I thought he had instincts from off. I thought in
press like, he'll vary what he's doing. He can be patient,

(14:22):
doesn't lunch. I think he cut out a position, but
like Mina said, can use his length to his advantage
there and especially at the catch point. He's aware he
can poke the ball away. So literally, if if I
didn't see the LSU game, I'd probably have him like
in the twenties, you know, like early twenties on my list.
When it's all said and done, he'll end up in
the mid thirties on my final list. But I can't

(14:43):
divorce myself from the LSU game because he is going
to see he's going to get challenged vertically like that.
So that was my only negative.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
I mean, he said, you like cornerbacks with long arms.
At what other traits are you generally looking for? And
are they all just like recreating great Seattle seahawks of
the past.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
It's I think, I really like, is there something do
you have, like a signature? Trait is kind of something
I'm looking for in the first couple of rounds because
you know, pretty much, to be honest, every cornerback in
this class is somewhat flawed. There's no top five process,
even like.

Speaker 3 (15:18):
Will Dirk Stingley's not walking through that door.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
Oh Hunter, Sorry, Travis Hunter.

Speaker 3 (15:25):
He's his own thing though, he's his own conversation.

Speaker 1 (15:28):
I know, But like, I also feel like doing an
entire segment of favorite players in the draft, and not
just at least saying Travis Hunter would be the number
one overall player at least to me, just as a
cornerback er, just as a receiver.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
No, I keep doing that. I'm like, well, they're no
really truly special this and then go way. I forgot
to mention Travis Hunter. Do they have something special? I think?
And like Baron, it's the physicality to me, that's my
favorite thing about him. Amos, it's the length, Hairston, it's
the speed. So I'm kind of just looking for can
we build up of something and then if you have
a flaw, is it something that can be improved pond

(16:00):
or are you just frankly too slender and the frame
is never going to fill out to the point that
was such a miss for me with Forbes a couple
of years ago. And that's something I've been watching out for,
you know, because I don't want to jump to the inclusion.
He'll fill out, He'll get some stand you know, be
able to tackle. It's like some guys never do. So
I think that's it. Looking for one special trade and
then if the flaw can be fixed.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
This is the last show we'll do DJ before your
final prospects list come out, So any any chance I
can convince you to just move Travis Huner up to
one to finish it.

Speaker 3 (16:31):
It's kind of I thought you're gonna ask me if
I was going to take a Mason Graham out of
my top fifty. I thought that was you're gonna want there.
Now you know he hates Mason Graham.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
Atta.

Speaker 3 (16:39):
I've never seen somebody despise another human being so much.

Speaker 2 (16:42):
No, Mason Graham quietly a little bit divisive with some
uh some people that I've chatted with. You know, he's
still my DT one, but yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
Doesn't think you should be drafted. Question.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
None of this, none of this is true. I was
just trying to like find little knits to pick with
your rankings. But I do. I do think when you
have like Babe Ruth and Shohei Otani in the draft,
you might now you know, in the end, when we
look back in a few years, you're gonna want him
at one. So that's us my final push. Who's another
one of your favorites?

Speaker 3 (17:14):
DJ I can go through a couple one of them.
This is like my here's my hot scouting take or whatever.
Tyler Warren, It's like he's definitely getting prospect fatigue going
through this process. And so, like I talked to somebody
the day and they were like, you know, they use
him at quarterback and some wildcat stuff and then they

(17:34):
move him around and use him here and use him there,
but like, you know, how much is that all going
to translate? And what?

Speaker 1 (17:39):
You know?

Speaker 3 (17:40):
This that and the other stripping that a lot of
stuff away. I'm like, so to summarize, he's really good
at football, like like that's I'm okay with that. Like yeah,
and was just dominant and they had to figure out
every which way possible just put the ball in his
hands and make other human beings try and get him
on the ground like that's I'm a fan. I think
there's a little more nuanced and polish to him. And

(18:00):
you can even see on the highlights we're showing here.
If you're listening to it, just take my word for it.
He can't separate like he he is so big and
he's kind of a strider. So I know we didn't
get a chance to run a forty you know, going
through the process, and it's you know, I can't remember
a year we've had this many guys that don't run.
That's just the future. It's here, that's not going to happen.
He would run a much faster forty time than people think.

(18:22):
It is my prediction on him, and I talk to
guys who were at live games with him and they're
there that you feel his speed. You might not see
it on the video when you're watching the tape, but
when you get around him and see how strong his
stride is and he covers ground, you feel it. I
just think he's a fantastic football player and he's one
of my favorites.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
I get that. I also get why some teams would
be scared of I think I would be this a
little bit like if you were looking for a tight
end and you have this guy, Colston Loveland available who
just fits. Okay, that's what we see in the NFL.
That's leg and play right, that's that looks like a
top ten potential tight end. And then you have this
other guy who's really just this unique guy, and you

(19:02):
have to figure it out, Like I get I get that.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
I on my pod, I didn't. It's not a player
comp But I found myself talking about Deebo Samuel when
I was talking about Tyler Warren, which is to say, oh,
he's an absolute freak, an absolute mismatched nightmare. With the
ball in his hands, he's a human monster truck, and
he just has a lot of very unique, unicorny type traits.
And so with the right coach, in the right situation,

(19:27):
I think he has the ability to be one of
the three best tight ends in the NFL. But I
will say, and this is the thing that I don't
think it's quite fatigued so much as like as I
thought about it, if he ended up with the wrong team,
who's just like, hey man, just stand in line of
block and you know what wants to play action, I
don't think he'll ever reach his potential. So I do
think fit does matter a little bit with him. I
don't think it's limiting. I'm not saying he's like Boom

(19:48):
or bust per se. And because I feel like sometimes
when you say fit matters, it sounds like you're denigrating
the player a little bit. Yeah, yeah, certain. And he's
a tight to, which is a unique position a little bit, right,
So I do think the right I mean, how cool
would it be a Ben Johnson got his hands on him,
for example, just to throw that out there in Chicago.

(20:10):
I don't know if that's good, but I just, you know,
I just wanted to land with the right team.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
Reminds me a little of Jeremy Shackey coming out and
maybe a little like Shocky, a little like Debo and
and some like. He reinds me a little tasto some
Hill in a way. It's like you might that first
contract might be the big one because the way he plays.
Who knows how how he's going to age. But that
that that's fright.

Speaker 3 (20:31):
Why am I blank and helped me with the name.
Why am I blanking on the Steelers tight end from
like a decade ago? Heith Millerith Miller, Heith Miller. Yeah,
when he I was in the Ravens draft room and
Heath Miller, you know, had a back injury so he
couldn't run, and we're watching him slide down the board
and Ozzie Knew some really early said this guy is
going to fold the Steelers, isn't he like? This guy's

(20:55):
going to fold the Steelers? And it was like, oh
my gosh, of course, and it was like he was
this just a Maller brawler and he was perfect for
the Steelers. Had an unbelievable run. So I do like
Mina's idea there with the Bears, But selfishly, I'm like,
can this league be dumb enough to let the Chargers
get the hands on this guy and we can recreate
the Stanford offense.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
From years always thinking about his Chargers. More to come
on forties in free agents back in a minute, all right, Well,
we'll fly through a couple more quickly. It did say
favorite players to watch, so this is not projecting who's

(21:36):
going to be the best pro But I haven't had
a chance to talk about Jalen Milroe with DJ. And
if you put him in the NFL right now, DJ,
how many quarterbacks are better at running the football than
Jalen Milroe. I would argue it's possible. The answer is zero.
I mean, at this point in Lamar Jackson's career and

(21:57):
Josh Allen, it's like the most efficient play in football
when he runs the ball. He is one of the
best runners of the ball at quarterback I've ever seen
coming out of college. And you can find like the
great games where he does make key throws that help
them win the game. So it's not like they're not there.
And I get why he's not gonna go in the
top twenty picks or maybe even the first round of
though they did invite him to the draft. But if

(22:19):
that's your baseline, to me, that's such an exciting baseline
that at worst, I feel like he's a better Taysom Hill.
And to me, that's more exciting than any quarterback in
this draft. It's more fun to watch other than cam
Warden Shedur Sanders. So like, he's just one of my
favorite players, and I would just I just want to
be the team that's dumb enough to take a chance

(22:40):
on him and at least find a role. Hopefully he
gets the right coach. We talked about fit I don't
know who you think would be the right fit or
if you agree with me at all, but I think
people are underrating that as a baseline, that he would
be that good unless you disagree.

Speaker 3 (22:51):
That same logic got Anthony Richarson picked in the top five.

Speaker 1 (22:54):
Right, which is why it's a good like late second
or third pick. I'm not saying you take him that early.
I'm just saying like you could do something with him.

Speaker 3 (23:01):
He is a phenomenal runner. And we talk. We were
talking because I love baseball before about baseball, and like
on baseball, they have a skill like all the way
up to eighty. He is an eighty runner, like he
is in top of the shelf, elite, elite runner. His
running trait is of this entire quarterback class. He's the
only quarterback that has a singular trait that's at the
very top of the ladder. So that's what I would

(23:23):
agree with you wholehetly. He's a dynamic runner. Whereas to
the point where it's like you'll get crucified if you
ever talk about players switching positions. But I'm like, gosh,
it is intriguing watching him. By gosh, what if he
was playing running back Because he's such a talented runner,
not to you know, to insult him, but the other component,
the vision, the decision making, that it's so troubling and

(23:46):
it's so below the line that it's like, how early
do you make that move there? It's just been not
enough evidence. He had a couple of games early in
the year where you get excited about, but the more
like the Oklahoma game, I can't get that out of.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
My head, might be pertinent to the I know we're
talking production versus traits, but the thing I find concerning
about him as a quarterback is that he's played so
much quarterback, you know, right at a high level. So,
and this is kind of the production versus traits, right,
It's a thing that gets thrown into that discussion when
you're asking can be cause I think part of the

(24:18):
optimism for Anthony Richardson came from the fact that he
had played so little, right. So when you take a
guy like this who's been in a you know, top
shelf program, played with the best coaches, and you're seeing
some of these issues in terms of at the quarterback position,
it gets you a little bit concerned about. Okay, yes,
there's logic, so let's get him the building and see
if we can develop him. But he's already been in

(24:39):
some pretty damn good buildings. That said, I think with
the running the thing I want to just say. And
you guys are kind of hitting on this, especially when
you talk about a potential position change. He is doing
the nuanced things with the bona his hands that it's
not just like, oh he's big and fast, right. He

(24:59):
runs with exceptional vision. He sets up defender like I
I found his runs in like entrancing. So I hear
you Gregor saying he's fun to watch. I have a
lot of skepticism abou whether or not you be corbying
in the NFL. But you know what, it's all in
where you take him. I think it's all where you take.

Speaker 1 (25:18):
It, right. I mean, uh, I know I'm dating myself here,
but Pat White got taken uh in the in the
second round of the draft. We've almost over corrected so
much that if even if you only did look at
him as a guy that could be a package player,
like a Taysom Hill type of guy. To me, if
I would take a plus Taysom Hill in the third round,
I don't think that that's crazy at all.

Speaker 3 (25:36):
He's going to go in the second round.

Speaker 1 (25:39):
I would take a plus Taysom Hill and hope that
he could have You know, he's not gonna be Malik
Willis that that quick Probably of a developmental track, but
you would hope maybe he gets there in a couple years,
all right, I would know we've honked a lot. Why
don't you guys do like one more speed round if
if you want each just because I want to hear
more from from you two me and why don't you go.

Speaker 3 (25:57):
For go ahead?

Speaker 2 (25:58):
I'll be quick Mari and Hampton. I since I've done defense,
I'll skip Harman. I just think in a lot of
drafts he would be RB one, just so complete. He's
kind of good at everything. I think like he's has,
you know, ideal size, He's got short area bursts topping
long speed is good too. He's explosive, he can get

(26:21):
north south and move guys. He has a really good balance. Frankly,
he forces a lot of mistackles. He can even pass.
But he's still got a little bit of work to
do there. But I think he can be a plus
pass protector in the NFL. He can catch passes. I mean,
DJ like what can't this dude, I think maybe like
the agility is an elite, but other than that, he

(26:41):
just is such a complete prospect to me.

Speaker 3 (26:44):
Yeah, he just looks the part too, I mean he is.
He is a big, physical guy and interesting thing when
I talk to the folks, I think I told Greg
about this previously, but talk to the guys that worked
him out and trained him. When they do their onboarding,
they do all the physical testing and this guy had
a lot of touches. He carried the ball a ton,
so a lot of usage. And they said when they
checked him in and did the full medical work up,

(27:06):
like he was full go, ready to go day one, Like,
did not have a hangnail like he his body handled
that beautifully. So he just built for it. He's built
for the NFL. He can catch it, he can hit
home runs, he can get you know, talk about the
North South stuff. He hits, it goes like there is
a legit burst to him. Now, he doesn't have elite
like wiggle, you know, side to side, make you miss,

(27:28):
but it's not He's not tight either, So he's just
kind of middle of the road in that aspect of it.
But I don't know what else is wrong with him.
I think he's like my twelve or thirteenth player in
the entire draft, and I don't I don't see any
way he doesn't go in the first one.

Speaker 1 (27:41):
Yeah, I see what happened here. I'm sure it wasn't
on purpose. I mean, I feel like picked a lot
of DJ's favorite players too, guy like just where he's
higher than consensus. But I'm with you. We all agree
on Omriy and Hampton, we all agree on Todd Campbell.
They're all They're both incredible. All right, finish it up.

Speaker 3 (27:55):
DJ got a couple different ways I could go here.
I talked so much about Treyvon Henderson's past protection. It's
it's been said, it's been done. It is very fun,
like just entertainment. Though his pass protection real is as
fun as anything in this whole draft. I've used the
phrase it's like and it's like the it's like the
matrix when he hits guys, because the guys that he hits,

(28:16):
you'll see the arms go flailing and like get knocked back,
like it's the sight. It's a it's aesthetically pleasing to
watch him buckle guys in pass protection. But Jack Bash,
I love the story. I love the kid. I love
the you know, I hate the unfortunate, awful situation he
was put in with his brother's passing, but the way
he navigated that handled that. And then we're at the

(28:38):
Senior Bowl and the guy catches the game winning touchdown.
Like everything about this guy just screams. He's a total
stud and he competes for the ball up in the air.
He's just everything he does is physical and tough. The
first guy rarely gets him on the ground after the catch,
like he's just it's not a scouting term and it's cliche,
but like the guy's just a freaking war daddy. Like

(29:00):
he's I'm betting on him, Like he's gonna be a
good player.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
Former tight end who has like the physicality of a
tight end. You can see him using him a little
like a tight end. Maybe not the blocking, but just
that the power.

Speaker 3 (29:13):
He's Joe Juravicious on steroids. Not to make the white
guy to white guy receiver comparison, but like he is
like when young Joe Jerivisius in the league. He couldn't
really run, but nobody could tackle him. Like he could
just get open and nobody could get him on the ground.
Like he's just well beyond that.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
I think I said I had him much more. People
are getta be bad at this. I said he was
Bobo plus on my pod jacobat which it's another white
guy cop, Hey, Bob underrated, underrated, Bbo plus is actually
a good player. I just think there's so many schemes,
so many coaches in the f on right now who

(29:50):
want wide receivers you can block and get yards after
to catch, and are physical and reliable to catch. So
I just think there's gonna be a place for him
in this league.

Speaker 3 (29:57):
Maybe maybe mac Hollands. So we can cross races and
I'll go mac Hollins. There is my comp Do you
like that?

Speaker 1 (30:04):
I like it. I don't know. Uh yeah, I don't
know where I'm taking.

Speaker 3 (30:08):
So there's there's not a pure comparison there, but yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
Matt Collins Day one free agency signing by the New
England pageots. All right, let's take a quick break on
forties and free agents. We will be back in just
a minute. Back on forties and free agents. Mina. I
couldn't help but notice this post you put on Blue

(30:36):
Sky this week. You said you've been listening to forties
and free agents lately and you sent out the ideal
two person podcast has one fairly upbeat normy usually the host,
and one grump who loves to complain unbeatable formula. Am
I the fairly upbeat Normy? Is this our formula?

Speaker 2 (30:59):
No, you're revert the m Yeah? Come on you know
that Greg. You know he's the beat normy.

Speaker 3 (31:05):
You had Mason Graham playing in the CFL for crying
out right? Come on?

Speaker 1 (31:10):
Did we inspire that? The first thing I thought I
was like, who is she talking about? There?

Speaker 2 (31:14):
Well, apparently every podcast, because every single podcast Earth weighed in.
They were like, Yeah, this is my dynamic.

Speaker 1 (31:20):
I like to think of myself as a normy DJ.
Let's let's talk about something that I know you wanted
to dive into a little bit about production and traits.

Speaker 3 (31:29):
Yeah. I think this draft's defined by a couple of themes,
and one of them is with these edge rushers is
we've got guys with all the physical traits. They're explosive,
you know, Shamar Stewart kind of the poster boy for that.
Then we've got the other guys who have all this
production who maybe you know, lack some of those traits.
The elite physical gifts, and it's well, what's better, Like
these teams are having to make these decisions in the

(31:50):
draft room, how you stack these guys and how you
rank them what's better? So we put our guy Jack
Andraid in research on it and had him pull you know,
the way we approach was, let's look at all the
guys the top pass rushers in the league, so everybody
with ten plus sacks. Then let's try and work backwards
to what they were in college and Mina I was
hoping we were going to get the Welp, Well there

(32:10):
you have it. It's all the trades, guys you know
worked or didn't work and vice versa. And it turns
out it's a completely mixed bag, which makes this debate
and discussion all the more interesting.

Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah, there are examples of pass rush shirts we were
just talking about who had minimal college production and went
on to have great NFL careers. Daneil Hunter, right, is
the poster child for this. I mean, gosh, I had
forgotten the so if I remember him being raw in college,
but holy smokes like he so this is last seventeen games.

(32:46):
He had three and a half sacks in college. But
so it is all over the place. There are examples
of guys with little production who went on to have
success for the most part, though there's more examples of
guys who just didn't pan out. I would say, so
it is I think still a pretty big red flag
for me, and I've spent a lot of time watching

(33:07):
and thinking about Stuart in particular. It comes down to
a lot of things you got to look at. First.
I'm looking at the underlying numbers, so it's not just sacks.
You're looking at pressure rate, past rush wind, things like that.
Numbers are getting better and better, and seeing if there's
something like maybe he was getting a lot of pressure
but not a lot of sacks. Stuart got a decent

(33:29):
amount of pressure. Finishing was clearly the problem. I'm looking
at positional changes like Michael pars is on here, but
obviously he played off the ball, so you know, was
this player given the opportunity? And then speaking of opportunity,
I'm also just trying to figure out how are they
used in the offense. The guy who was asked to
line up inside a lot I remember we were you know,
that's earily the case with some of these Actually, some

(33:50):
of the guys here and Trebron Walker comes to mind.
So you're trying to like paint as much of a
picture as you can to try to understand are there
any extraneous factor? Is that explain why this player didn't
have the production that would merit a first round pick?

Speaker 3 (34:04):
Yeah, I think And sorry, Greg, I'll just jump in
here real quick on that, because Georgia is a great
example of this.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (34:10):
If you look at Georgia, Trayvon Walker, Nolan Smith, Jalen Walker,
mikel Williams, so some in the past and some in
the present, And to me, they're easier for me to
explain when I look at Trayvon Walker lined up in
tid alignments and not being loosened up to be able
to use his gifts, you know, to rush the quarterback.
When I look at a team that he played on
that was blowing the doors off of everybody, and they

(34:32):
had a deep defensive line group, he didn't get quite
as many opportunities. So and Nolan Smith the same way.
So I was I could project what they were going
to be and what they were going to do, and
I felt comfortable with that. Now that being said, Trayvon Walker,
if that was him and Hutchinson. That was the debate.
I was Hutchinson. To me, Hutchinson had the traits as
well and the production. So that's why I was a

(34:52):
Hutchinson guy, you know, comparing those two players. But like
with Stuart, Stewart is freed up. He has opened up
to get those opportunities. You know. He he does have
a good pressure rate. He does. He has a lot
of win the battle lose the wars when you study him,
and I think finishing is a is a gift and
is a trait and being able to locate the quarterback

(35:14):
on the move, being able to bend and rap and finish.
He doesn't do that very well. He's very twitched up.
He's very explosive. But like that's why with him I
come down more on the like is iraqu side of things.
And I might be, you know one, I might be
in the minority on that, but I just think this
guy knows how to rush the passer. It's going to
take him a little while to develop some more you

(35:35):
know power. I think it's in his body. He's got
long arms, he's compact. I think he's going to be
fine that way. I just to me, I had a
harder time with Shamar Stewart than I did with those
Georgia guys.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yeah, I'm with you, as Iraku was on my list
if we kept going on and on about my favorite
players to watch in this draft, because he's got so
much he can do. And you look at the guys
who did test well and then did get taken pretty high,
that our relative success story. Let's say, like von Walker
and the Dafeo way, and you still see as pros
what held them back from production in the NFL in college,

(36:09):
and so like a way I would I would say
is a good example of a guy who didn't do
much in college and has been a solid enough pick,
but still kind of doesn't have that complete game. And
I think you could say that about Travon Walker even
though he's improved at all. It makes me think, though, DJ,
with less of these players testing, what positions do you

(36:30):
think are the most important? Because there's not a lot
of examples either of guys who didn't test that tested
really poorly and had had great numbers as pros. There's some.
Jonathan Grenard is an interesting one who didn't test well.
Kyle Van Noys had a great career. There's different ways
you can look at it, but what positions to you
are the most important? Where you want to get that athletic.

Speaker 3 (36:50):
Testing corner first and foremost, because that's where your speed
matters more than any other position. So you know, you
can go off of GPS stuff from the college tape,
and but there's teams that don't trust that necessarily. If
a guy's not challenged, very often, he's only running as
fast as the guy that he's covering, so you don't
get to see him open up a ton, so they
and they don't just totally trust those numbers. So the no.

(37:12):
Forty thing I think has more of an impact on
that position. But even pass rushers, like there's so few
guys that ran and it has been a pretty good tell,
Like there's very few exceptions, as you mentioned Greg of
guys who can't run and attend split don't have that
burst and explosiveness that translate because so much of winning
as a pass rusher as you get off. So I
was talking to teams like how are you getting around this?

(37:34):
And one team I talked to said they have force
plate jumps, you know, from the combine, and they've used
that as an indicator of explosiveness and they've tried to
a lot on that. Other coach I talked to said,
it's never been more important for us to get out
and work these guys out, to be able to feel
feel it, like you know, you got you got a
little pad in front of you and you guys doing
to get off. You can feel his takeoff, you can

(37:55):
feel you know when he gets in you with his hands,
like what type of explosiveness they have. But it's I
think it's it's more important to have people to understand
the scouting side of it now because it's harder than numbers.
It's a buffet. It's like I'll take I'll take a
vertical jump. I'm not going to do this. I'll take
one of these, I'm not going to do that.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
Along those lines, I just pulled up Shamar Stewart's relative
athletic score data, which I think is so he was
a nine nine nine right absolutely, oh yeah, ran super
fastest straight line, vertical broad There's no agility testing. And
to DJ's point about, well, what are he's seeing on tape,

(38:34):
I kind of think that shows up and the agility
is like a big part of the issue.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
To me, it's the finish.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
It's at the top of his it doesn't quite have
the bend. It's funny because all of Yeah, So the
other thing I think that would be concerning about me
just from because I, like I said, this is almost
like a mystery, right, Like, Okay, this dude is like
a Donnis. What is going on? So we have to
solve that mystery. So we try to solve it by
getting all the contacts. I talked about, how was he used?
Is it the Georgia defense, how much did he play whatever?

(39:03):
For me? Like guys, I was like literally just like
sitting there and watching his reps over and over trying
to figure out, like, what's going wrong here? What am
I missing? And something that jumped out to me outside
of the flexibility is it also shows up against the
run like he can set a really hard edge and
he can win and handle you know, pretty much anyone
who's in his face, but he misses tackles too. He

(39:25):
kind of flies by here and there. And that's also
concerning because when we think about production, we're talking just
about sacks, but I actually think it shows up in
the run game as well, and that makes me worry
about whether or not this can be fixed.

Speaker 3 (39:40):
Yeah, and like you can see in the Missouri game
he chucks Membu, who's a big, powerful guy. He'll chuck
him at the point of attack like that one off
play and you show it like oh gosh, like it's
all in there and set the edge, do all those things.
And then as Mina's talking about, I love the effort.
He chases plays from the backside like crazy. You'll see
him run past teammates. He runs past teammates on to
the ball. It plays hard, but then you just kind

(40:04):
of look down at your paper and you look down
at your notes, and I'm like, well, I don't really
have the tackles for loss. I don't really have the
like impact plays. And you know, so he's a tricky one.
I love how big, strong and explosively is. Combine that
with how hard he plays, how competitive he is. I
don't want to say that. I mean, the guy's like
my twenty six or twenty seventh player, first round pick.
But to me, it's just not an easy evaluation.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
Yeah there, that's gonna be the case, maybe more and
more as these players skip testing. Obviously, he wanted to
test because if you can test like him, you're going
to But it was weird, like you said, the futures
here in terms of not testing DJ this year, it's
kind of great, Like Tyler Warren didn't test, as you mentioned,
So that's just gonna be a mystery. Guys that you

(40:47):
think would test well. For instance, Walter Nolan, who I'm
fascinated by because to me, his twenty best plays are
probably better than any defensive player in this draft other
than Travis hunder And so I was hoping he would
test and he would pop and it's like that would
be a fun guy. But he didn't. He didn't test either.
No one like no one's testing, and I don't know
that's maybe that's just.

Speaker 3 (41:08):
Real quick, just real quick, if you've been paying attention
Dur in the draft process, I'm just gonna this is
just edge rushers, Okay, did not did not run a
forty Abdul Carter, Jalen Walker, Mike Green, Donovaniza Roku, Nick Gorton,
Jack Sawyer, Josiah Stewart, TJ A. J. T. Tamalau, like
Oladejo from U C. L A. I mean, like freaking
almost all of them, like they they just they almost

(41:30):
like they got together and did a blood oath of
like I'm not running, You're not running. None of us
are running. That's just where we are.

Speaker 1 (41:37):
I feel like you should take it personally, DJ, They're
just making your life harder, and they're they're doing it
to avoid people like you and and Mina and I again.

Speaker 3 (41:46):
But see, I'm a I'm a company guy, and I
appreciate intrigue at the draft. So now we have more intrigue.
Nobody knows anything that's fair.

Speaker 1 (41:54):
Let's let's talk finally about the teams with the most
draft capital in this twenty twenty five NFL draft. So
we thought this would be a fun exercise for our
research department to do the teams with the most draft capital.
The Jaguars are number one on the list, and this
is using the trade value chart, which you know isn't perfect,
but there's no perfect one out there. The Jaguars are

(42:15):
actually number one on this list. They have ten picks.
The Seahawks, your Seahawks are number two. They had to
trade away DK Metcalf and Gino Smith to get it,
but they are number two with an extra second and third.
The forty nine Ers and Bills to me were really
interesting names near the top of this list. Extra picks
throughout the draft for both of those teams. I'm going

(42:35):
to start with the Jaguars because when we interviewed James Gladstone,
their GM during the NFL scouting combine, I mentioned to
him that he had ten picks and he said, well
for now, and that was his immediate response. So they
are a team I think could be trading. I assumed
that they would be trading the surplus of those picks
to move up and get guys that you want. Like

(42:57):
looking at that list, mina who stands out to you
the most.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
As controlling the draft?

Speaker 1 (43:04):
Well, just like that, that are interesting, especially like when
I thought about the Jaguarts with that, and maybe this
is a different question about this. This is a draft
where teams I think are going to get favorites and
maybe it'll be easy and there's just got to be
a lot of trades moving up and down.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
I mean, I think New England is the most fascinating
team in this entire draft to me, outside of any
team that could take a quarterback and was going to
pass in a quarterback is interesting obviously the top three,
but also the Saints are really interesting too. We can
tire with them too. But the Patriots I find fascinating
because I genuinely believe no one is really sure what

(43:39):
they're going to do it for, right depending on especially
if Hunter and Carter off the board, whether or not
they feel that's too high for one of the guys
that they've been linked with, or they'd like to trade down.
Is that even possible? I think though they have all
that draft capital, there's such a mandate in this draft

(44:00):
to make life easier for Drake may and I think
they're especially I compare it on my pod to going
to the grocery store hungry. It's like they didn't address
their needs on offense. I liked the deg signing, but
they go into this. They came into free agency with
laring knees and they came out of it with laring needs.
So that leads me to wonder, not just about pick four,

(44:21):
but are they going to be aggressive to get an
offensive tackle or ride receiver at any point in this draft?
Because I hope so frankly for Drake Maysake.

Speaker 3 (44:34):
Yeah, I gosh, I please get a left tackle. And
that's the thing. It's like, I know, you know, the
these tackles have holes in them, and it's like, gosh,
I don't know that. I love the value of where
they're picking. Ideally you slide back, get some extra picks
and still get your tackle. But if they're stuck almost man,
they can't run out there with what they ran out
there with last year. They just can't. So that that

(44:56):
is intrigued there with to me. The fascinating one that
I think is just to huge draft is San Francisco. Yes,
this team is they are venturing into a new world.
They've been living in before contract and now they're getting
to venture into the after contract world. And we've seen
it Mina. You saw it with Seattle, Like there's just

(45:16):
that's they already saw the damage, the carnage in the
off season of who's gone and who left this team,
and you can say, okay, well some of them were
beat up and hadn't played as well, and yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's a lot of names that they lost a lot
of guys, And so that look not saying they can't win.
They still have their core group of stars. And I
do like Brock and I think Rock's a perfect player
for that offense, and I have no problem that they're

(45:36):
going to pay him, and that I think that they should.
But It's gonna put a lot more pressure on them
to be able to hit on draft picks, and not
just top top of the draft. They're gonna have to
find some cheap Day three starters on.

Speaker 2 (45:48):
This team, sneakily. So many needs on this roster, right,
I mean, offensive line, multiple positions, gotta start planning for
a post George Kittle future at tight end, even take
a receiver, entire defensive line, you go anywhere there corner
is a glaring one. Yeah, safety, I mean, god dang,

(46:10):
they could go in any direction.

Speaker 3 (46:12):
I think has to have who has to have a
higher batting average than them, Like looking around the team,
they have to have a high batting average in this draft.

Speaker 1 (46:19):
Miami stands out to me as another one. But you're
absolutely right when you look at San Francisco's roster, it's
just the defensive line is decayed so bad. It's not
necessarily just worrying about the brock Party contract that's gonna come.
It's the contract that didn't work out on the defensive line,
like Javon Hargrave. That was an injury ultimately, but their
defensive tackle group is about as thin as any group

(46:42):
in the league. They don't have a second edge, and
that's what you think about. They don't have a second
linebacker necessarily. They love next to Fred Warner. They have
eighty point nine million dollars in dead money this year.
The Rams who have a ton too, they have fifty million.
Should be looking at the forty nine Ers and Seahawks
as the two highest teams in dead money this year
and think of like this is go time. Can we

(47:04):
can win this division right now? Because these other two
teams are hurting And it's crazy because the forty nine Ers,
they still have a lot of great players and I
don't want to discount them because ultimately, if you're power
ranking the best teams over the last five years, like
they're probably number two to me and behind the Chiefs
even though they haven't gotten that Super Bowl title. And
yet this is absolutely a transition year and John Lynch

(47:24):
has to earn that money and he's done such a
great job over the years. But you do wonder if
they had another bad year like this has been an
arranged marriage him and Kyle Shannan for a long time.
Does that do they stay together forever? He's he's almost
talked about wanting to move on Mina.

Speaker 2 (47:39):
He never had to get egg on his face over
the Tree Lance trade because things just worked out for them.
A lot of what we're talking about is kind of
the consequence of like the lack of trade, you know,
draft capital over the last few years. It's actually it's
weirdly like it's taken a second to hit the roster.
But I actually think we are seeing it a little

(48:01):
bit in the roster now because they haven't had a
lot of picks in the past, and now they have
all these holes on their team. So yeah, it's a
great pick. By the way, I was thinking about them,
DJ when you were talking about Baron, because you know,
I was thinking about like, if they take a corner
there Baron, they might like him better, but they might
not need him with diambdarlonor so could be an interesting

(48:26):
decision for them in terms of the cornerbacks. But there's
a lot of directions they could go in. I have
to think they're praying that one of the tackles falls
to eleven.

Speaker 3 (48:35):
Yeah, especially once you write that check that they're going
to write, and you look at all the hierarchy of
needs on that team protecting the guy you're just getting
ready to pay all that money too, is pretty high
up the list.

Speaker 1 (48:44):
I don't think the seahawkx DM John Schneider has quite
as many needs to fill, although there's plenty on offense.
But I think he would be high on that list
of gms who need to have a good draft to me,
and he's got those extra picks, so he's got to
make them count. That probably mostly on the offensive side,
but it'll be interesting to see like what they do.
And then I've got to give the Bills some credit

(49:05):
just seeing them on that list. They're a great example
of how to stay competitive and it felt like they
were retooling their roster for a while, but they have
that extra second. They were patient, that was the Stefan
Diggs trade. That's why they have the extra second. And
they have a bunch of extra late picks too, and
they've been good on hitting some late picks. So just
just shout out to the Bills I have.

Speaker 3 (49:26):
I have a lot of They're in a weird spot though,
because they feel like of any team, like who's going
to like make the bold move, like just go get
the last piece of the puzzle. But it's like this draft,
I don't know who that guy is, Like, who would
they view as that piece that they would want to
use some of this capital and just run up the
board and go get I don't. I don't really see
who that.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
Is, so I it's gonna be fascinating. One of the
most unpredictable drafts I think is coming of our lifetime,
very predictable. That it was fun having you on MINA.
I know DJ is joining you later in the week.
Is that true he's on NFL And is he joining
the mena Time Show featuring Lenny as well? Or no,
he is.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
He's doing my final war Room mock draft, which I've
done three of them thus far. Very fun. It's like,
as we speed around the first round, I give two
choices to the guest. I've been doing trades. I'll see
if I do trades. So far, nobody has bit by
the way on my cam Ward with one, or I've
offered like mega halls for that pick from the Giants.

(50:27):
I might have to make it so enticing that I
forced the issue with DJ, but we'll see. You have
to listen to find out. Go check out the Meda
Time Show.

Speaker 1 (50:34):
Yeah that would be great, and yeah, we are only
a week away from the NFL Draft. Thanks Mina and DJ.
We got we got one more of these before the
big day. That's it for forties and free agents. Next
time we talk to you, it will be draft week.