April 23, 2025 • 42 mins
Ms. Tina Knowles is known as the mother of two musically gifted powerhouse performers, but today she's joining Jennie for a conversation all about her first memoir, Matriarch, that deep dives into the many chapters of her own life.
From how she made difficult decisions to leave marriages that were no longer serving her, to how she made her daughters feel equally loved growing up, to the intrusive thoughts she experienced when reliving some of the more painful moments in her life while writing this book…these two mothers are connecting on so much!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garland. Hi, everyone,
welcome to I Choose Me. This podcast is all about
the choices we make and where they lead us. My
guest today grew up in Galveston, Texas, where she was
the youngest of seven children. She became a salon owner,
(00:26):
a fashion designer, and the mother of two female musical powerhouses,
and in recent years she launched the hair care brand
Sacred with one of her daughters. Her incredible memoir, Matriarch,
is out now and it is so interesting to hear
(00:46):
her story. Through this book, she weaves not only the
history of her own family, but historical moments that shaped
the woman she became. I cannot wait to talk with
her all about it. Please welcome Ms. Tina Knowles to
the podcast. Well hello, Beyaure, it is such an honor
(01:07):
to have you here. Your book is so beautifully written.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I mean the way you intertwined your own history and
your life journey with the experiences you had growing up
during the civil rights movement, as well as sharing the
racism you and your family are endured and all the
hardships that you all overcame. You painted such a vivid
picture for me as a reader, and it was truly
an honor to read it.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I mean it. One of the things that I loved
about your memoir was being able to take a look
into your past, your parents' past, your aunts, and your
uncle's really sharing so much about the family that made
you who you are. It was very interesting to me.
(01:57):
I have to be honest, being the youngest child, I
feel like you learned so much by observing your older
sisters and your brother's life choices. But you were kind
of your own thing. You were a tenacious little girl
and so beautifully curious. You had a strength in you
from the very beginning, which I identified with. You describe a
(02:22):
defining moment with the mean nuns at your school when
you stood up for yourself and you said, I belong
wherever I want to be.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
That.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Yeah, that made me get the goosies. To have that
kind of confidence in that voice at such a young
age like that. Do you think that you got that
from your mom and the women before her in your life,
or do you really feel like you learned so much
of that from your siblings.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I think that for me, honestly, my mother was not
the most outspoken person. But but I know that I
have that lineage because of both of my great grandmothers
were slaves, but they managed to keep their family together
and a time when you know, families were totally separated.
(03:12):
And so although I never got to meet them or
talk to them or whatever, I would imagine that that
fighting spirit was there, just passed down from generation to generation.
And that the other thing that I've often thought, because sometimes,
you know, I talked to people about my history with
the nuns and how I stood up to them as
(03:34):
much as I could be in a five year old
and not really being greatly protected by my mother because
she was I just felt like she was a little
brainwashed by the Catholic religion. And I also was born
to forty four year old parents, and talking to my siblings,
They're like, you got away with murder. I think that
was tired. They were trying my mama.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
That's so true with the baby of a family. They
get away with so much.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I would talk back all the time, and you know,
I was like, that's how I got the name badass
teen to b because older people. I was having a
conversation with my friend Holly pet and she was saying,
you know, when I was a kid, no adults like me.
I was like, that's an understatement for me. They would
be like that little teeny has got the smartest mouth.
But thank God for that because it gave me the
(04:22):
ability to fight these nuns and for them not to
kill my spirit, because they told me constantly, you have
an evil spirit, and we're going to take that spirit down.
We're gonna you know, like they were helping me because
I was like, you know, evil or whatever, and I
was only five years old. I didn't even know what
they were talking about. But I did know that when
(04:43):
they told me these other things about me, that I
had to fight them. And it's prepared me for my
whole life because I've been fighting my whole life fighting.
I'm seventy one years old and I still have to
fight all the time for respect sometimes, you know.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yep, yep. I can definitely relate. While you were writing
this book, did you let your daughters read anything early
on so you could get their feedback? Well?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
I didn't, But what I did do is I gathered
together all of their parts and I sent them to
them to listen to on voice and actually the guy
Kevin O'Leary, who became like family to me, who helped
me write the book. He did all the fact checking
and you know the things that good writers do. He
(05:31):
did it in his voice, and I sent it to
them and they were able to tell me if they approved,
and if they didn't approve. I wouldn't have put it
in a book because I verified, like always terrified to
write a book and to tell somebody else's story. I
don't want to do that, you know, have their story
to tell themselves, especially when my kids, because there's been
(05:51):
so many crazy mrs and craziness that's been out there,
you know, really wanted them to approve.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Yeah, I can imagine. I'm a mother of three daughters too,
and I value my position as a mother more than
any accomplishment I think I've ever had or will have.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, what do you think the biggest blessing is when
it comes to having daughters?
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Oh? God, it's the best. I mean, you get to
watch them grow and learn, and they teach you things
every day. I'm sure you're teaching you things every day,
and you get to kind of get a you know,
just all the things that you know as a kid
(06:38):
and growing up that affected you. Adversely, you get to
not do those things to your daughters. How amazing is that?
Speaker 1 (06:46):
So?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
I think, you know, they teach me things every day.
I'm learning things from my daughters, always has as they
were kids. They taught me so much too, So I
just think it's the best if in the world. Too.
I thought I wanted a boy, but I'm just so
happy that God blessed me with those girls.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
You know what, I thought I was going to have
three boys really from when I was a little girl,
and I turned out having three girls, and I'm so grateful.
I don't know what I would do with a boy.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
I know same, you.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Have grandsons, sons more than grandsons.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
I had grandsons and one of them is twenty and
he is a joy to have around. He actually I
got the pleasure of he's been living with me for
the last couple of years. Nice, and you know, it's
been new for me because, like you said, I don't
really I haven't been around boys that much. And even
(07:46):
from when he was a little kid, I kept him
a lot, and it was totally different with a boy.
I didn't know what I was doing. I imagine it's
joyful as well. But I'm glad I gave me girls didoh.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
I loved in your book how you acknowledge that you
didn't want the lounge to be overshadowed by Beyonce's music
career when it was first starting out. And I think
that that feeling is universal for moms, and I can
really relate to that, not only as a mom, but
also as a daughter who broke into fame and had
(08:24):
my own feelings about overshadowing my sisters. How did you
manage that and how do you make all of your
kids feel equally loved and equally supported.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
I think the first thing is that you have to
see the differences in them. My kids are so you know,
I claim Kelly Rowland as my daughter as well, and
you know, all three of them couldn't have been more different.
And I think looking at each kid as an individual
and not just lumping them because you know, I'm the
(08:57):
youngest of seven. Sister had eight children. So I remember
my sister spending group time with her kids. You know,
she used to call them Lena, Denise, Tommy, Rnney she
you know, she had so many kids she would call
them all the names. Oh you know who I mean.
(09:18):
And my mom used to get so upset about that,
and she would say, you can't do that. Your kids
are individuals and you have to look at them as
different kids. Don't ever do that. And she was like, yeah,
that's because you don't have all these kids fair steps.
But I learned that very early to look at my
kids as individuals and not to you know, Beyonce was
(09:40):
like this little superstar and by the time she was
eight or nine years old performing everywhere, and Solange was
came along and was just as talented, but she didn't
have that experience, and so I didn't want that. I
started seeing Beyonce being irritated by her and not being
so nice to her little sister her because she had
(10:01):
this group around her and other friends and they would
all say be quiet Solange, and Solange would be trying
to boss everybody around and teach them the choreography and
make up steps, and they were like, you are sick,
sit down and be quiet, and Beyonce was not all
of a sudden, not defending her. So it scared me.
So I got them in therapy really early on so
(10:21):
that they could learn. Beyonce could be learned to be
sensitive to what her sister was going through and for
Solange to be respectful of her big sister, and you know,
they've been close every since. I was terrified of there
being a divide with them close. Yeah definitely.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
I mean you said you put the girls in therapy
at one point. I'm a huge advocate for mental health
and therapy, so I commend you for that, especially back
then during a time when it wasn't that widely accepted.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
No, and my family was not very happy about it.
They kept saying, you are crazy, you know, so weird
and why are you doing this? And even my husband
didn't complain about it, but he didn't really I don't
think he really believed in it. So I just said,
I'm going to do it myself. I don't need a
team of people to do this. I'm going to find
(11:14):
a therapist and I'm gonna get my kids in therapy.
And it was the best move I could have ever made.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah, definitely, because what's so important to me is that
when I'm gone, that they have each other and they're
not just sisters, but they're friends.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
You know, how old are your girls?
Speaker 1 (11:29):
My oldest is twenty seven. I have a twenty two
year old and.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
A twenty year old oven yourself girl.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Hah good, I love that. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
How old is the youngest? Eighteen eighteen? Why you got
grown girls?
Speaker 1 (11:43):
I do? I'm almost free. How did you see though,
your girl's benefit from having therapy at such a young age,
because I definitely had some times when my girls were
in therapy too.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yeah. I saw the benefit immediately. With all of a sudden,
Beyonce understood her that her little sister, what she was
going through. She just became so much more protective and
sensitive because that's how they were. She was so happy
to have a little sister, and she was such a
(12:17):
great big sister. And then around ten, when she got
in the singing group, it was like, you know, a
five year old taking your stuff and coming in and
butting in and tagging along, and it made her more sensitive.
And as she became more sensitive to Solange, Solange felt
like she didn't have to do so much to get
(12:38):
her attention, and they just got to be close and
protective of each other and they still are today. So
it worked.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
I'm so happy that you did that. Honestly, before reading
your book, I knew that you had had a successful
career in fashion industry. You were known for making such beautiful,
gorgeous outfits for Destiny's Child and then your fashion line,
(13:08):
House of Darien. But I didn't know that being a
seamstress ran so deeply in your family.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Yeah, from generations after generations. You know, everyone in my family,
both my sisters sewed that could really sew, and it's
it's our legacy and it's the thing that I think
kept us from you know, I grew up really poor,
but when you have a skill like sewing or doing
(13:35):
hair or something like that, you never broke. That's what
my mama's philosophy was, and it was very true, because
you can always make money.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
So true. And I think sewing is sort of a
dying art. I know, my mom taught me how to
make pies, and I taught my daughters how to make pies,
and I feel like nobody knows how to make pies anymore.
And it's kind of the same. I know how to sew,
and I've taught my daughters how to sew, but I
don't feel like other people know how to sew anymore.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
And you know, it's funny because even with stylist, I
was a stylist, but I also was a seamstress, so
I know the construction of clothes. I know how they're
supposed to fit. And I was always surprised that I
would get stylist and they wouldn't even know how to
put him in.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
No, they pin it. They barely know how to pin things. Sometimes.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yeah, I like double stick, but it's only there for
so long.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
No, it doesn't work forever. Choosing to share your life
with the world is a very brave decision. I'm curious
as you were going back through the moments of your life,
what were the things that were harder for you to
relive than others.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
The pain of losing my mom, my dad, my best
friend Johnny. Those are hard, you know. I just finished
I did that the audio book. Yeah, and I tell
you that there was so many tears. I'm like, Tina,
you've read this book, I don't know how many times,
(15:08):
and you're still crying. You know. Those were the hardest
things to talk about and to talk about that experience
and not feel so sad and so empty. When it
came to just losing the people that I love, it
definitely was the hardest part.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
I know that reading the audio version of the book
can bring up so much. How many days did you
take to do your recording.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
I think it took me like three weeks, but not
every day all day. Some days were long, some was shorter,
and some days got so emotional for me that I
had to stop, you know, because I'm like, they don't
want you to have the emotion in the book. They're like, Okay,
blow your nose and you know, clear your throat and
drink something. So they don't really want you to have
(16:01):
that voice of emotion. But I actually wanted my book
to have that would have been okay with me.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah, I would think so. I mean, because I feel
you mentioned the loss of your mom and your dad
and Johnny. I feel like I know them because you
wrote about them so vividly.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
That's a that's a that's a real compliment.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Yeah, I do. Were there was there ever a point
when you were writing the book that you thought, oh,
this is too much. I'm not I'm not sure that
being this open with the world is a good idea.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
All the time. And another thing is this book had
a thousand pages, and they were like, Lucina, you gotta
make this book five. Nobody's gonna read a thousand page book,
And so I had to go in and take a lot.
And it's so much that I had to take out
that I thought was so great, But a lot of
things I was I was relieved to take them out
(16:57):
because this is scary. This is like a baby, you know,
I know that, you know some people are you know
they're going to use things to try to tear you apart.
You know, it's just the nature of the beast. And
it's very scary for me. And I'm being such a
private person and from a private family. This is a lot.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
A lot is a lot. It is a lot. I mean,
you were really open in the book. You talk about
the ups and the downs of your first marriage and
how you chose to not be dependent on him. I
think Beyonce was already born and you were pregnant with Solange,
and you had that moment when you said to yourself,
(17:43):
You'll have to be your own boss.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yeah. Yeah, because I knew that I was not cut out. Two.
I don't know how to say this without sounding ob noxious,
but like I knew I couldn't go and worked for
somebody at that time in my life. It was too
much going on and I had to be in charge
(18:07):
of my life. I was so out of charge with
everything else that I had to be in charge of
my destiny, you know, in my job, and I knew
I wanted to have a hair salon, but I couldn't
go work for somebody else first, and I didn't. I
went straight into my own salon, which I wouldn't suggest
(18:29):
to anybody else. But it worked for me. It worked
for me because when I was in beauty school, I
already built my clientele. I had been planning and planning,
and I had a great plan and it worked. But
it doesn't work for everybody.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Right, Do you feel like you got lucky in some respects?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
I was blessed that God opened up a door for
me and he made it all work smooth, because when
I told the story in the book, I was like,
you had a lot of nerves, Like you had a
lot of nerve to go open the salon and you
didn't have like you didn't have enough clientele. You didn't
(19:09):
have you had never worked for another salon, and you
had the audacity to say, I'm not going to work
for anybody else. I'm gonna open my own business. And
it worked.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
It did work, Missina. This is crazy because my mom
when I was younger, a little girl growing up in Illinois.
She had a very similar sounding path to you in
the respect that she knew she needed to take control
of her life and she opened up a hair salon
just like you.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
You're kidding me.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
No, it's just all coming back to me as a
little girl. I would go to work with her in
her salon. It was called Cobets that was in a
very small town in rural Illinois, and I would go
and just play with all the brushes and paint my
nails all the way up to my wrists, you know,
and play with every thing in there. It was such
a cool way to grow up.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Yeah, it is. I mean, my kids have great memories
of that. Not only you know that part of it,
but like I'm sure you remember the camaraderie that was
the salon, because that's been such a you know, anytime
they interview my kids, they'll talk about that time in
that salon and how empowering it was to them to
(20:25):
see these professional women from all walks of life and
just them getting along. And it took away all of
that competitiveness that some girls have that they can't trust
other women, and you can trust the most if you
(20:45):
you know, but they didn't. They don't experience competing. My girls,
they compete with themselves, and that's because they saw that
camaraderie in that salon. So I wouldn't trade it for
anything in the world. I think it's a great way
for kids to grow up seeing that.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Yes, you talked also about that in your book. It
just reminded me you talked about when they I think
it was Beyonce if I'm not mistaken. She was doing
a pageant and you told her to not be competitive
with other girls, to only compete with herself.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Because I mean, you're going to waste all your energy
on someone else and being jealous to them or trying
to be them, and not spend that time focusing on
getting better at what you do. It's the truth. I
mean I live by that every day, like I just
want everybody to win. It just helps me to win,
(21:42):
absolutely absolute.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Back to what we were talking about before about in
your marriage, knowing that you needed to take control. I
just that is such a powerful message to women listening
to this today, knowing your worth when you're not being
valued in a relationship. Why do you think it's so
important for women to retain independence in a relationship or
(22:06):
in a marriage.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Well, I think it's important because in those five years
that I was not putting down being a housewife of
being you know, a mother, but I lost touch with
so much of myself. Like when you have a kid
and that's your life and that's your best friend, you know,
(22:28):
your vocabulary shrinks you. You know, your life is different.
I wouldn't go a lot of places because I didn't
want to leave my daughter with anyone, and b'sed out
on so much of the outside world. That's a part
of it. But also just for me, which is a
(22:48):
tricky situation because even though I got myself together financially,
and I never have been in a position since that
day to depend on a man to take care of me.
I've never been in that position ever again since then.
But what I didn't do is have the courage to leave.
So once he got better and we went to counseling
(23:10):
and our relationship got better, I was like, Oh, this
is gonna work, you know. So I didn't do so
good with that lesson. I kind of went back and
forth with that one. But what I did know is
that you have to have your own life and I've
always had my life. I've always had my priorities out
(23:31):
since that time. I've always had girlfriends that surround me,
and you know, nothing can come between us. And once
you got your crew, then you know you got all
the power in the world. You can do anything.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yeah, that's support net so important. Like you said, it
took you many years to leave your first marriage.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Many years, thirty three years, thirty three years. Yeah, all
of that time was not bad time. There were long
periods of great times. And that's how you know I
was able to stay for that long because it you know,
it wasn't all bad and he would protect them. I
had never been protected in my life, really protected the
(24:15):
way I was protected in that And sometimes you kind
of confused that with and there was always love there.
It wasn't about love. It was just about you know,
whatever created that situation where you know, my husband just
had a problem with infidelity.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Yeah, it took you that many years to leave your marriage.
What advice would you give to women listening right now
who are contemplating leaving a marriage.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Well, I think you should do all you can to
work through it. But you know, I don't believe at
this point in my life at seventy one. It took
me a long time to come to the conclusion that
if you are not happy, that for whatever reason, you're
staying for me right now in my life is not enough.
(25:09):
What I realized after I got a divorce was that
I never would stay in a marriage that wasn't fulfilling me,
and that I wasn't a top priorady in I wouldn't be,
you know, staying a marriage that was unhappy or unfulfilled.
And but you know, I got a lot of nerves
(25:31):
saying that, because when I made this observation, I was
sixty years old. And so I did get remarried, and
you know, for a time it was great. I married
one of my really good friends and it was great.
But when I felt like it wasn't good for me
and it wasn't ever going to be what I need
(25:55):
for me, it didn't take me long to make the
decision to get out of it. And my reaction to
it was very, very different from the first time. The
first time, I was like so sad, and so you know,
this time, you know, I just got out there and
lived my life, and I feel like I'm not only
(26:17):
did I survive, but I thrived. I'm thriving.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Now you are thriving.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
I had that. I'm seventy. By the time I got
that message, I was like sixty nine years old.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
I know, but you got it.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
That's all the matters that are late than never, right exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
I mean, I think you know, I've certainly experienced as
I've turned fifty and have gone in my fifties. Here
there's such a different mindset, and I cannot wait for
my sixties and my seventies because the significant difference I
notice in myself. I'm so proud of it, like I
feel like I've grown so much.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, and it's a great example for your daughters, right, Yeah,
for sure.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
And just at the right time too, because when they
were littler, they didn't even understand what I was going through,
or the work that it took, or the pain that
was exchanged. You know, they didn't see any of that,
or at least I tried to show them, yes exactly.
But now as young adults, they really see like my
(27:23):
work ethic differently, they see the things that I've made priorities,
and I think that it lands so differently on them now.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Sure they are very proud of you.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Yes, and I'm sure yours are very proud of you too.
One of the last chapters in your book is called
Choosing Me. Obviously I love that, and you talk about
your decision to leave your second marriage. You say in
(27:56):
the book, as you were sort of alluding to before,
if I stayed in this relationship, I would never feel
whole loved, cherished and respected and seen. Nothing else in
the marriage matters if you are not first priority with
each other. There was also the pressure of being an
example for so many people who hoped to find a
(28:17):
second chance at love. But I had to choose, and
I chose me.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yeah, because you know, you stay sometimes in situations because
especially when you're in a public guy like this, it's
a lot of pressure on you. Because I can't tell
you how many times people told me, oh my god,
you were my hope, you know, because they were over
sixty and they just felt like they could find love.
And my ex was you know, I've known him for
(28:45):
forty years, his sister was my best friend, and that
he's a great guy. It's just that together we were
not suited for each other. Well after a time, we
just didn't bring out the best in each other. And
I think that if you don't bring out the best
in each other, then you you know, it's no reason
to stay together.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
I mean, I've been divorced twice. I know it's not easy.
It's not easy, especially in the public eye. Looking back. Now,
how has your life been positively impacted by you choosing yourself?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Well, it's positive because I focus on you know, because
I'm surrounded by love every day. I'm surrounded by people
that are when I walk into a room, they get
excited and happy. That's choosing me. I'm choosing myself over
(29:44):
someone else. And I'm choosing my happiness and my fulfillment.
And you know, why shouldn't you walk into a room
at seventy one years old and somebody is happy to
see you? Oh yeah, and that when when they talk
to me and I talk to them, that we bring
out the very best in each other. Like that's a choice.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Absolutely, you allow it in and you receive it and
then it just projects.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
How do you feel about love today? Do you think
you want to find it again?
Speaker 2 (30:18):
I would love to find love again. I'm a hopeless
romantic love But again, I want to make sure that
if I don't find it, I know I will be
just fine's. And you know, I say in the book
that that's unfortunate that I had to be sixty nine,
seventy years old before I realized that I am enough
(30:38):
by myself, that I have so many people that love me.
It doesn't have to be a man. You know. I'm
so loved by so many people, and I love myself,
you know, for the I think I've always had a
love for myself, but was our first already know, but
I am at least at the top of my priorities,
(31:02):
you know, where I wasn't before. I was like way
down the list, right.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
What do you say to people who when we talk
about choosing ourselves, I hear sometimes that maybe that's selfish,
or you know, you're not thinking for your family anymore.
What do you say to those people?
Speaker 2 (31:21):
I say that my kids are forty three and forty
four and thirty seven, and they are grown and got
their own lives, and I don't feel selfish at all.
I give so much to so many people. There's no
(31:42):
way I would consider myself selfish. So I don't care
whether you know about that hoy that says that doesn't
know me.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Matter, No, they don't even matter.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
I think it's so interesting too what you said earlier
about when you were a mom, a young mom, and
how you felt like you lost yourself. I think that's
just like the way it is for the mom.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
It is because think about it. You wake up every
day and what's your first priority? Your kids got gotta
bathe them, You gotta you know, if they go get
a little boo boo on them, they act like it's
the end of the world, and you gotta, oh my god,
you know what. It takes all of your energy and
you know, and it's the best thing in the world.
(32:26):
It's beautiful. But also you are not your first priority,
and you don't know, you don't have Like I didn't
have a road map of what to do and what
not to do. So what I chose to do was
everything she wanted to do. Whatever about me, are taking
(32:47):
care of me or to go take that day and
have a massage and get a facial and do those things.
That wasn't even an objective for me and all of
my focus and all all of my life. And that's
not a bad thing, but it's also not the greatest
thing for you either, because if I had it to
(33:08):
do all over again, I would have asked for help
from other people, people that I trusted with my kid,
because I didn't trust anybody. You know, it's a funny
story in there about me asking my sister to keep
telling my sister that I'm gonna let her keep Beyonce.
Why I go on this trip for a couple of days.
Excuse really, you know hard baby? And my husband says
(33:31):
to me, come go to the South padre Islan, you
can be on the beach. You need who looks so tired?
You need two days? And I was like, well, I
got to take the baby, and he said no, no, no, no,
that's the idea is for you to get some rest
and really sleep. And so I called my sister and
I'm like, hi, I got a surprise for you. I'm
gonna let you keep my baby. And my sister was like,
let me keep your baby. Will I keep your baby?
(33:54):
And I'm like, no, I'm gonna let you keep her,
and you know, she was like, girls, ain't doing me
no favor. And so then I called my oldest sister
and I said, I can't stand her. Sometimes. I thought
I was gonna let her keep my baby, and sheep
said I don't care about keeping your baby. And my
sister started laughing and she's like, teenie, this is your
first baby. It is not a privilege and honor to
(34:18):
keep your baby. That baby is just the baby. Everybody
got a bunch of kids like that baby ain't nothing special.
And I was like what. I was like, goodbye, that's
your first baby, that's right. But I went down the
line until I found somebody who just thought of it
as a big honor to and they probably didn't, but
they humored me. You know, you think that your baby
(34:40):
is the you know, that's like a world shattering event,
and that's what you do is you put everything into
it and you don't give yourself much. So I just
think with new mothers, they got a better handle these days.
They will take that baby and them to somebody that
(35:01):
they trust and go and take care of themselves. That
you don't just read little children's books every day, that
you take the time to read a novel or go
to a movie and talk to an adult, right, you know,
your vocabulary doesn't evolve around my little pony. So true.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
I mean, if anything, young moms take it from us
who lost ourselves completely, gave ourselves completely to our children.
I mean I felt like for all of my twenties,
all of my thirties, I was a mom first and foremost,
and I loved it. But you're right, like, if I
could have done it again, I probably would have taken
(35:44):
some more time for myself. I would have felt more
comfortable leaving them with other people who I knew loved them,
and I would have focused a little bit more on
making myself whole because I probably would have been a
better mom.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, a a better wife, better wife now
because you're not you can't be your very I remember
just you know, my children always taken you know, I
don't care what was going on with my husband. If
my kids had a little bobo, I was just all
on it and not paying any attention. So it's a
(36:20):
one of the things I would have done differently in
that space as well.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Yeah, it's so interesting to look back on my marriage
to my girl's dad and see those moments where I
should could have should have been more attentive to his
needs and to our relationship, and maybe things would have
ended up differently.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
True.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Yeah, now I know that being a mom and a
grandmother also means being a protector and time and time again,
people have come for your family. How do you continue
to protect your family when the entire world knows who
you are, they think they know who you are? How
(37:06):
do you protect your grandchildren who are born into this life.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
I just do the best I can do. But what
I have come to realize is that I can only
protect them so much and that I don't make it
my responsibility as much as I used to, like anytime
somebody said something that was untrue by my kids. You know,
the first I'm a mama bear and I'm going to
go for you and I want the truth to be
out there. And you know, it's not always best for
(37:33):
my kids. The outcome is not always best for them.
So I have really tried to work hard on just
controlling the things that I can, and that is blocking
out as much of the negativity as I can for
as long as I can, because sometimes I can control it.
(37:56):
My fingers just scope I'm on that you know post,
in that post to let somebody have it because they're lying,
because you know, I understand that we're public figures and
it comes along with the territory. I had an interview
and the lady on there asked me something very inappropriate,
and I asked her, why would you do that? You
(38:18):
know why we've had such a nice conversation. Why would
you do that? And she said, because you're a public
figure and I could ask you whatever I want to
ask you. So basically the thought process is that because
you have you're a public figure, that the sky's the limit.
I could just ask you anything, and you just got
to put up with my crap. And you know that's
(38:39):
not true, I mean, and I said to her, I
took the time to I had time that day, as
they say, And I said, I'm a human being, and
how would you feel if I asked you that question
that you just asked me? And she said, well, I said,
because you're a public figure too, you know you're interviewing me,
So how would you feel if I did that to you?
(39:00):
And I think that she thought about it and she apologized.
And you know, that's all we can do is try
to educate people on the fact that we are human
beings and that my grandchildren especially, I'm ready to fight, yeah,
because they has to be in this, you know, yeah, exactly,
So I think kids should be off limits. But I
(39:22):
just do the best I can do.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Well, this book will undoubtedly leave a legacy for your grandchildren.
What is one lesson you hope your grandkids take away
from you or this book? Even?
Speaker 2 (39:39):
I think a couple of things. One is that to
treat people the way you want to be treated that
is just as easy to be kind. You know. That's
really really key with me. And then I think the
second thing is that when it's all said and done,
if you have your family, the rest of that don't matter.
(40:03):
You know. I feel, honestly it sounds like a cliche,
but if I lost every single monetary thing that I
have in my life, if I have my family, my crew,
I'm gonna be fine.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
You'll be fine.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
I can get through it. And that's just the truth.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
That's a sign of a good family and a good
mama right there. Okay, I really think that this book
needs to be a movie. Who was gonna play you?
Speaker 2 (40:32):
I love this young actress. Her name is Andre Day.
I don't know. There's something in her that's a quiet
storm or just somebody that I feel is so strong,
but they don't have to always be the center of attention.
And I don't know, it's just so much about her
that resonates with me. And who I am and who
(40:52):
I was at her age, and so I would love for,
you know, for her to play me.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
I'm sure she would love it too, I know if.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
You're familiar with her, but she played Billie Holiday. Yes,
she killed that. She's wonderful beautiful too.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Well, you know we always pick somebody cute.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Oh yeah, come on, they have to represent before I
let you go, Miss Tina Knowles, what was your last
I choose me moment?
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Probably doing this book, you know, putting this book out,
because all along making the decision to do this book
was definitely I choose me moment because I'm still you know,
I mean, it's scary. Yeah, And it was hard this book.
(41:46):
Writing this book was really hard emotionally. I had to
relive a lot of stuff that you know, was very
painful for me. And so I think and I kept saying, Oh,
everybody's gonna be mad at me. You know, the Catholic
Church is going to be mad at me, the hospital
is gonna be mad at me. My kids are gonna
(42:07):
be mad at me. You know, my exes are going
to be mad at me. And at the end, I said,
this is my story, and I'm choosing me.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
Yeah, I got goose bumps again. I'm so excited for
everybody to read this beautiful book. If nothing else, just
have it on your shelf. Your cover is so gorgeous.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
You thank you so much, I mean, next level.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Thank you so I wish you all the best and
such an honor to have you on the show. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
It's an honor to talk to you too. And I
really enjoyed this conversation. I'm so glad it was great.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Good Okay, I'm so glad.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Thank you, good luck, thank you
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Thank you, Bye bye.
You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garland. Hi, everyone,
welcome to I Choose Me. This podcast is all about
the choices we make and where they lead us. My
guest today grew up in Galveston, Texas, where she was
the youngest of seven children. She became a salon owner,
(00:26):
a fashion designer, and the mother of two female musical powerhouses,
and in recent years she launched the hair care brand
Sacred with one of her daughters. Her incredible memoir, Matriarch,
is out now and it is so interesting to hear
(00:46):
her story. Through this book, she weaves not only the
history of her own family, but historical moments that shaped
the woman she became. I cannot wait to talk with
her all about it. Please welcome Ms. Tina Knowles to
the podcast. Well hello, Beyaure, it is such an honor
(01:07):
to have you here. Your book is so beautifully written.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I mean the way you intertwined your own history and
your life journey with the experiences you had growing up
during the civil rights movement, as well as sharing the
racism you and your family are endured and all the
hardships that you all overcame. You painted such a vivid
picture for me as a reader, and it was truly
an honor to read it.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I mean it. One of the things that I loved
about your memoir was being able to take a look
into your past, your parents' past, your aunts, and your
uncle's really sharing so much about the family that made
you who you are. It was very interesting to me.
(01:57):
I have to be honest, being the youngest child, I
feel like you learned so much by observing your older
sisters and your brother's life choices. But you were kind
of your own thing. You were a tenacious little girl
and so beautifully curious. You had a strength in you
from the very beginning, which I identified with. You describe a
(02:22):
defining moment with the mean nuns at your school when
you stood up for yourself and you said, I belong
wherever I want to be.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
That.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Yeah, that made me get the goosies. To have that
kind of confidence in that voice at such a young
age like that. Do you think that you got that
from your mom and the women before her in your life,
or do you really feel like you learned so much
of that from your siblings.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I think that for me, honestly, my mother was not
the most outspoken person. But but I know that I
have that lineage because of both of my great grandmothers
were slaves, but they managed to keep their family together
and a time when you know, families were totally separated.
(03:12):
And so although I never got to meet them or
talk to them or whatever, I would imagine that that
fighting spirit was there, just passed down from generation to generation.
And that the other thing that I've often thought, because sometimes,
you know, I talked to people about my history with
the nuns and how I stood up to them as
(03:34):
much as I could be in a five year old
and not really being greatly protected by my mother because
she was I just felt like she was a little
brainwashed by the Catholic religion. And I also was born
to forty four year old parents, and talking to my siblings,
They're like, you got away with murder. I think that
was tired. They were trying my mama.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
That's so true with the baby of a family. They
get away with so much.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I would talk back all the time, and you know,
I was like, that's how I got the name badass
teen to b because older people. I was having a
conversation with my friend Holly pet and she was saying,
you know, when I was a kid, no adults like me.
I was like, that's an understatement for me. They would
be like that little teeny has got the smartest mouth.
But thank God for that because it gave me the
(04:22):
ability to fight these nuns and for them not to
kill my spirit, because they told me constantly, you have
an evil spirit, and we're going to take that spirit down.
We're gonna you know, like they were helping me because
I was like, you know, evil or whatever, and I
was only five years old. I didn't even know what
they were talking about. But I did know that when
(04:43):
they told me these other things about me, that I
had to fight them. And it's prepared me for my
whole life because I've been fighting my whole life fighting.
I'm seventy one years old and I still have to
fight all the time for respect sometimes, you know.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yep, yep. I can definitely relate. While you were writing
this book, did you let your daughters read anything early
on so you could get their feedback? Well?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
I didn't, But what I did do is I gathered
together all of their parts and I sent them to
them to listen to on voice and actually the guy
Kevin O'Leary, who became like family to me, who helped
me write the book. He did all the fact checking
and you know the things that good writers do. He
(05:31):
did it in his voice, and I sent it to
them and they were able to tell me if they approved,
and if they didn't approve. I wouldn't have put it
in a book because I verified, like always terrified to
write a book and to tell somebody else's story. I
don't want to do that, you know, have their story
to tell themselves, especially when my kids, because there's been
(05:51):
so many crazy mrs and craziness that's been out there,
you know, really wanted them to approve.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Yeah, I can imagine. I'm a mother of three daughters too,
and I value my position as a mother more than
any accomplishment I think I've ever had or will have.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, what do you think the biggest blessing is when
it comes to having daughters?
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Oh? God, it's the best. I mean, you get to
watch them grow and learn, and they teach you things
every day. I'm sure you're teaching you things every day,
and you get to kind of get a you know,
just all the things that you know as a kid
(06:38):
and growing up that affected you. Adversely, you get to
not do those things to your daughters. How amazing is that?
Speaker 1 (06:46):
So?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
I think, you know, they teach me things every day.
I'm learning things from my daughters, always has as they
were kids. They taught me so much too, So I
just think it's the best if in the world. Too.
I thought I wanted a boy, but I'm just so
happy that God blessed me with those girls.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
You know what, I thought I was going to have
three boys really from when I was a little girl,
and I turned out having three girls, and I'm so grateful.
I don't know what I would do with a boy.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
I know same, you.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Have grandsons, sons more than grandsons.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
I had grandsons and one of them is twenty and
he is a joy to have around. He actually I
got the pleasure of he's been living with me for
the last couple of years. Nice, and you know, it's
been new for me because, like you said, I don't
really I haven't been around boys that much. And even
(07:46):
from when he was a little kid, I kept him
a lot, and it was totally different with a boy.
I didn't know what I was doing. I imagine it's
joyful as well. But I'm glad I gave me girls didoh.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
I loved in your book how you acknowledge that you
didn't want the lounge to be overshadowed by Beyonce's music
career when it was first starting out. And I think
that that feeling is universal for moms, and I can
really relate to that, not only as a mom, but
also as a daughter who broke into fame and had
(08:24):
my own feelings about overshadowing my sisters. How did you
manage that and how do you make all of your
kids feel equally loved and equally supported.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
I think the first thing is that you have to
see the differences in them. My kids are so you know,
I claim Kelly Rowland as my daughter as well, and
you know, all three of them couldn't have been more different.
And I think looking at each kid as an individual
and not just lumping them because you know, I'm the
(08:57):
youngest of seven. Sister had eight children. So I remember
my sister spending group time with her kids. You know,
she used to call them Lena, Denise, Tommy, Rnney she
you know, she had so many kids she would call
them all the names. Oh you know who I mean.
(09:18):
And my mom used to get so upset about that,
and she would say, you can't do that. Your kids
are individuals and you have to look at them as
different kids. Don't ever do that. And she was like, yeah,
that's because you don't have all these kids fair steps.
But I learned that very early to look at my
kids as individuals and not to you know, Beyonce was
(09:40):
like this little superstar and by the time she was
eight or nine years old performing everywhere, and Solange was
came along and was just as talented, but she didn't
have that experience, and so I didn't want that. I
started seeing Beyonce being irritated by her and not being
so nice to her little sister her because she had
(10:01):
this group around her and other friends and they would
all say be quiet Solange, and Solange would be trying
to boss everybody around and teach them the choreography and
make up steps, and they were like, you are sick,
sit down and be quiet, and Beyonce was not all
of a sudden, not defending her. So it scared me.
So I got them in therapy really early on so
(10:21):
that they could learn. Beyonce could be learned to be
sensitive to what her sister was going through and for
Solange to be respectful of her big sister, and you know,
they've been close every since. I was terrified of there
being a divide with them close. Yeah definitely.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
I mean you said you put the girls in therapy
at one point. I'm a huge advocate for mental health
and therapy, so I commend you for that, especially back
then during a time when it wasn't that widely accepted.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
No, and my family was not very happy about it.
They kept saying, you are crazy, you know, so weird
and why are you doing this? And even my husband
didn't complain about it, but he didn't really I don't
think he really believed in it. So I just said,
I'm going to do it myself. I don't need a
team of people to do this. I'm going to find
(11:14):
a therapist and I'm gonna get my kids in therapy.
And it was the best move I could have ever made.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah, definitely, because what's so important to me is that
when I'm gone, that they have each other and they're
not just sisters, but they're friends.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
You know, how old are your girls?
Speaker 1 (11:29):
My oldest is twenty seven. I have a twenty two
year old and.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
A twenty year old oven yourself girl.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Hah good, I love that. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
How old is the youngest? Eighteen eighteen? Why you got
grown girls?
Speaker 1 (11:43):
I do? I'm almost free. How did you see though,
your girl's benefit from having therapy at such a young age,
because I definitely had some times when my girls were
in therapy too.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yeah. I saw the benefit immediately. With all of a sudden,
Beyonce understood her that her little sister, what she was
going through. She just became so much more protective and
sensitive because that's how they were. She was so happy
to have a little sister, and she was such a
(12:17):
great big sister. And then around ten, when she got
in the singing group, it was like, you know, a
five year old taking your stuff and coming in and
butting in and tagging along, and it made her more sensitive.
And as she became more sensitive to Solange, Solange felt
like she didn't have to do so much to get
(12:38):
her attention, and they just got to be close and
protective of each other and they still are today. So
it worked.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
I'm so happy that you did that. Honestly, before reading
your book, I knew that you had had a successful
career in fashion industry. You were known for making such beautiful,
gorgeous outfits for Destiny's Child and then your fashion line,
(13:08):
House of Darien. But I didn't know that being a
seamstress ran so deeply in your family.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Yeah, from generations after generations. You know, everyone in my family,
both my sisters sewed that could really sew, and it's
it's our legacy and it's the thing that I think
kept us from you know, I grew up really poor,
but when you have a skill like sewing or doing
(13:35):
hair or something like that, you never broke. That's what
my mama's philosophy was, and it was very true, because
you can always make money.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
So true. And I think sewing is sort of a
dying art. I know, my mom taught me how to
make pies, and I taught my daughters how to make pies,
and I feel like nobody knows how to make pies anymore.
And it's kind of the same. I know how to sew,
and I've taught my daughters how to sew, but I
don't feel like other people know how to sew anymore.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
And you know, it's funny because even with stylist, I
was a stylist, but I also was a seamstress, so
I know the construction of clothes. I know how they're
supposed to fit. And I was always surprised that I
would get stylist and they wouldn't even know how to
put him in.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
No, they pin it. They barely know how to pin things. Sometimes.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yeah, I like double stick, but it's only there for
so long.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
No, it doesn't work forever. Choosing to share your life
with the world is a very brave decision. I'm curious
as you were going back through the moments of your life,
what were the things that were harder for you to
relive than others.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
The pain of losing my mom, my dad, my best
friend Johnny. Those are hard, you know. I just finished
I did that the audio book. Yeah, and I tell
you that there was so many tears. I'm like, Tina,
you've read this book, I don't know how many times,
(15:08):
and you're still crying. You know. Those were the hardest
things to talk about and to talk about that experience
and not feel so sad and so empty. When it
came to just losing the people that I love, it
definitely was the hardest part.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
I know that reading the audio version of the book
can bring up so much. How many days did you
take to do your recording.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
I think it took me like three weeks, but not
every day all day. Some days were long, some was shorter,
and some days got so emotional for me that I
had to stop, you know, because I'm like, they don't
want you to have the emotion in the book. They're like, Okay,
blow your nose and you know, clear your throat and
drink something. So they don't really want you to have
(16:01):
that voice of emotion. But I actually wanted my book
to have that would have been okay with me.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah, I would think so. I mean, because I feel
you mentioned the loss of your mom and your dad
and Johnny. I feel like I know them because you
wrote about them so vividly.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
That's a that's a that's a real compliment.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Yeah, I do. Were there was there ever a point
when you were writing the book that you thought, oh,
this is too much. I'm not I'm not sure that
being this open with the world is a good idea.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
All the time. And another thing is this book had
a thousand pages, and they were like, Lucina, you gotta
make this book five. Nobody's gonna read a thousand page book,
And so I had to go in and take a lot.
And it's so much that I had to take out
that I thought was so great, But a lot of
things I was I was relieved to take them out
(16:57):
because this is scary. This is like a baby, you know,
I know that, you know some people are you know
they're going to use things to try to tear you apart.
You know, it's just the nature of the beast. And
it's very scary for me. And I'm being such a
private person and from a private family. This is a lot.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
A lot is a lot. It is a lot. I mean,
you were really open in the book. You talk about
the ups and the downs of your first marriage and
how you chose to not be dependent on him. I
think Beyonce was already born and you were pregnant with Solange,
and you had that moment when you said to yourself,
(17:43):
You'll have to be your own boss.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yeah. Yeah, because I knew that I was not cut out. Two.
I don't know how to say this without sounding ob noxious,
but like I knew I couldn't go and worked for
somebody at that time in my life. It was too
much going on and I had to be in charge
(18:07):
of my life. I was so out of charge with
everything else that I had to be in charge of
my destiny, you know, in my job, and I knew
I wanted to have a hair salon, but I couldn't
go work for somebody else first, and I didn't. I
went straight into my own salon, which I wouldn't suggest
(18:29):
to anybody else. But it worked for me. It worked
for me because when I was in beauty school, I
already built my clientele. I had been planning and planning,
and I had a great plan and it worked. But
it doesn't work for everybody.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Right, Do you feel like you got lucky in some respects?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
I was blessed that God opened up a door for
me and he made it all work smooth, because when
I told the story in the book, I was like,
you had a lot of nerves, Like you had a
lot of nerve to go open the salon and you
didn't have like you didn't have enough clientele. You didn't
(19:09):
have you had never worked for another salon, and you
had the audacity to say, I'm not going to work
for anybody else. I'm gonna open my own business. And
it worked.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
It did work, Missina. This is crazy because my mom
when I was younger, a little girl growing up in Illinois.
She had a very similar sounding path to you in
the respect that she knew she needed to take control
of her life and she opened up a hair salon
just like you.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
You're kidding me.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
No, it's just all coming back to me as a
little girl. I would go to work with her in
her salon. It was called Cobets that was in a
very small town in rural Illinois, and I would go
and just play with all the brushes and paint my
nails all the way up to my wrists, you know,
and play with every thing in there. It was such
a cool way to grow up.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Yeah, it is. I mean, my kids have great memories
of that. Not only you know that part of it,
but like I'm sure you remember the camaraderie that was
the salon, because that's been such a you know, anytime
they interview my kids, they'll talk about that time in
that salon and how empowering it was to them to
(20:25):
see these professional women from all walks of life and
just them getting along. And it took away all of
that competitiveness that some girls have that they can't trust
other women, and you can trust the most if you
(20:45):
you know, but they didn't. They don't experience competing. My girls,
they compete with themselves, and that's because they saw that
camaraderie in that salon. So I wouldn't trade it for
anything in the world. I think it's a great way
for kids to grow up seeing that.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Yes, you talked also about that in your book. It
just reminded me you talked about when they I think
it was Beyonce if I'm not mistaken. She was doing
a pageant and you told her to not be competitive
with other girls, to only compete with herself.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Because I mean, you're going to waste all your energy
on someone else and being jealous to them or trying
to be them, and not spend that time focusing on
getting better at what you do. It's the truth. I
mean I live by that every day, like I just
want everybody to win. It just helps me to win,
(21:42):
absolutely absolute.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Back to what we were talking about before about in
your marriage, knowing that you needed to take control. I
just that is such a powerful message to women listening
to this today, knowing your worth when you're not being
valued in a relationship. Why do you think it's so
important for women to retain independence in a relationship or
(22:06):
in a marriage.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Well, I think it's important because in those five years
that I was not putting down being a housewife of
being you know, a mother, but I lost touch with
so much of myself. Like when you have a kid
and that's your life and that's your best friend, you know,
(22:28):
your vocabulary shrinks you. You know, your life is different.
I wouldn't go a lot of places because I didn't
want to leave my daughter with anyone, and b'sed out
on so much of the outside world. That's a part
of it. But also just for me, which is a
(22:48):
tricky situation because even though I got myself together financially,
and I never have been in a position since that
day to depend on a man to take care of me.
I've never been in that position ever again since then.
But what I didn't do is have the courage to leave.
So once he got better and we went to counseling
(23:10):
and our relationship got better, I was like, Oh, this
is gonna work, you know. So I didn't do so
good with that lesson. I kind of went back and
forth with that one. But what I did know is
that you have to have your own life and I've
always had my life. I've always had my priorities out
(23:31):
since that time. I've always had girlfriends that surround me,
and you know, nothing can come between us. And once
you got your crew, then you know you got all
the power in the world. You can do anything.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yeah, that's support net so important. Like you said, it
took you many years to leave your first marriage.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Many years, thirty three years, thirty three years. Yeah, all
of that time was not bad time. There were long
periods of great times. And that's how you know I
was able to stay for that long because it you know,
it wasn't all bad and he would protect them. I
had never been protected in my life, really protected the
(24:15):
way I was protected in that And sometimes you kind
of confused that with and there was always love there.
It wasn't about love. It was just about you know,
whatever created that situation where you know, my husband just
had a problem with infidelity.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Yeah, it took you that many years to leave your marriage.
What advice would you give to women listening right now
who are contemplating leaving a marriage.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Well, I think you should do all you can to
work through it. But you know, I don't believe at
this point in my life at seventy one. It took
me a long time to come to the conclusion that
if you are not happy, that for whatever reason, you're
staying for me right now in my life is not enough.
(25:09):
What I realized after I got a divorce was that
I never would stay in a marriage that wasn't fulfilling me,
and that I wasn't a top priorady in I wouldn't be,
you know, staying a marriage that was unhappy or unfulfilled.
And but you know, I got a lot of nerves
(25:31):
saying that, because when I made this observation, I was
sixty years old. And so I did get remarried, and
you know, for a time it was great. I married
one of my really good friends and it was great.
But when I felt like it wasn't good for me
and it wasn't ever going to be what I need
(25:55):
for me, it didn't take me long to make the
decision to get out of it. And my reaction to
it was very, very different from the first time. The
first time, I was like so sad, and so you know,
this time, you know, I just got out there and
lived my life, and I feel like I'm not only
(26:17):
did I survive, but I thrived. I'm thriving.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Now you are thriving.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
I had that. I'm seventy. By the time I got
that message, I was like sixty nine years old.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
I know, but you got it.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
That's all the matters that are late than never, right exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
I mean, I think you know, I've certainly experienced as
I've turned fifty and have gone in my fifties. Here
there's such a different mindset, and I cannot wait for
my sixties and my seventies because the significant difference I
notice in myself. I'm so proud of it, like I
feel like I've grown so much.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, and it's a great example for your daughters, right, Yeah,
for sure.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
And just at the right time too, because when they
were littler, they didn't even understand what I was going through,
or the work that it took, or the pain that
was exchanged. You know, they didn't see any of that,
or at least I tried to show them, yes exactly.
But now as young adults, they really see like my
(27:23):
work ethic differently, they see the things that I've made priorities,
and I think that it lands so differently on them now.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Sure they are very proud of you.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Yes, and I'm sure yours are very proud of you too.
One of the last chapters in your book is called
Choosing Me. Obviously I love that, and you talk about
your decision to leave your second marriage. You say in
(27:56):
the book, as you were sort of alluding to before,
if I stayed in this relationship, I would never feel
whole loved, cherished and respected and seen. Nothing else in
the marriage matters if you are not first priority with
each other. There was also the pressure of being an
example for so many people who hoped to find a
(28:17):
second chance at love. But I had to choose, and
I chose me.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yeah, because you know, you stay sometimes in situations because
especially when you're in a public guy like this, it's
a lot of pressure on you. Because I can't tell
you how many times people told me, oh my god,
you were my hope, you know, because they were over
sixty and they just felt like they could find love.
And my ex was you know, I've known him for
(28:45):
forty years, his sister was my best friend, and that
he's a great guy. It's just that together we were
not suited for each other. Well after a time, we
just didn't bring out the best in each other. And
I think that if you don't bring out the best
in each other, then you you know, it's no reason
to stay together.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
I mean, I've been divorced twice. I know it's not easy.
It's not easy, especially in the public eye. Looking back. Now,
how has your life been positively impacted by you choosing yourself?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Well, it's positive because I focus on you know, because
I'm surrounded by love every day. I'm surrounded by people
that are when I walk into a room, they get
excited and happy. That's choosing me. I'm choosing myself over
(29:44):
someone else. And I'm choosing my happiness and my fulfillment.
And you know, why shouldn't you walk into a room
at seventy one years old and somebody is happy to
see you? Oh yeah, and that when when they talk
to me and I talk to them, that we bring
out the very best in each other. Like that's a choice.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Absolutely, you allow it in and you receive it and
then it just projects.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
How do you feel about love today? Do you think
you want to find it again?
Speaker 2 (30:18):
I would love to find love again. I'm a hopeless
romantic love But again, I want to make sure that
if I don't find it, I know I will be
just fine's. And you know, I say in the book
that that's unfortunate that I had to be sixty nine,
seventy years old before I realized that I am enough
(30:38):
by myself, that I have so many people that love me.
It doesn't have to be a man. You know. I'm
so loved by so many people, and I love myself,
you know, for the I think I've always had a
love for myself, but was our first already know, but
I am at least at the top of my priorities,
(31:02):
you know, where I wasn't before. I was like way
down the list, right.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
What do you say to people who when we talk
about choosing ourselves, I hear sometimes that maybe that's selfish,
or you know, you're not thinking for your family anymore.
What do you say to those people?
Speaker 2 (31:21):
I say that my kids are forty three and forty
four and thirty seven, and they are grown and got
their own lives, and I don't feel selfish at all.
I give so much to so many people. There's no
(31:42):
way I would consider myself selfish. So I don't care
whether you know about that hoy that says that doesn't
know me.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Matter, No, they don't even matter.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
I think it's so interesting too what you said earlier
about when you were a mom, a young mom, and
how you felt like you lost yourself. I think that's
just like the way it is for the mom.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
It is because think about it. You wake up every
day and what's your first priority? Your kids got gotta
bathe them, You gotta you know, if they go get
a little boo boo on them, they act like it's
the end of the world, and you gotta, oh my god,
you know what. It takes all of your energy and
you know, and it's the best thing in the world.
(32:26):
It's beautiful. But also you are not your first priority,
and you don't know, you don't have Like I didn't
have a road map of what to do and what
not to do. So what I chose to do was
everything she wanted to do. Whatever about me, are taking
(32:47):
care of me or to go take that day and
have a massage and get a facial and do those things.
That wasn't even an objective for me and all of
my focus and all all of my life. And that's
not a bad thing, but it's also not the greatest
thing for you either, because if I had it to
(33:08):
do all over again, I would have asked for help
from other people, people that I trusted with my kid,
because I didn't trust anybody. You know, it's a funny
story in there about me asking my sister to keep
telling my sister that I'm gonna let her keep Beyonce.
Why I go on this trip for a couple of days.
Excuse really, you know hard baby? And my husband says
(33:31):
to me, come go to the South padre Islan, you
can be on the beach. You need who looks so tired?
You need two days? And I was like, well, I
got to take the baby, and he said no, no, no, no,
that's the idea is for you to get some rest
and really sleep. And so I called my sister and
I'm like, hi, I got a surprise for you. I'm
gonna let you keep my baby. And my sister was like,
let me keep your baby. Will I keep your baby?
(33:54):
And I'm like, no, I'm gonna let you keep her,
and you know, she was like, girls, ain't doing me
no favor. And so then I called my oldest sister
and I said, I can't stand her. Sometimes. I thought
I was gonna let her keep my baby, and sheep
said I don't care about keeping your baby. And my
sister started laughing and she's like, teenie, this is your
first baby. It is not a privilege and honor to
(34:18):
keep your baby. That baby is just the baby. Everybody
got a bunch of kids like that baby ain't nothing special.
And I was like what. I was like, goodbye, that's
your first baby, that's right. But I went down the
line until I found somebody who just thought of it
as a big honor to and they probably didn't, but
they humored me. You know, you think that your baby
(34:40):
is the you know, that's like a world shattering event,
and that's what you do is you put everything into
it and you don't give yourself much. So I just
think with new mothers, they got a better handle these days.
They will take that baby and them to somebody that
(35:01):
they trust and go and take care of themselves. That
you don't just read little children's books every day, that
you take the time to read a novel or go
to a movie and talk to an adult, right, you know,
your vocabulary doesn't evolve around my little pony. So true.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
I mean, if anything, young moms take it from us
who lost ourselves completely, gave ourselves completely to our children.
I mean I felt like for all of my twenties,
all of my thirties, I was a mom first and foremost,
and I loved it. But you're right, like, if I
could have done it again, I probably would have taken
(35:44):
some more time for myself. I would have felt more
comfortable leaving them with other people who I knew loved them,
and I would have focused a little bit more on
making myself whole because I probably would have been a
better mom.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, a a better wife, better wife now
because you're not you can't be your very I remember
just you know, my children always taken you know, I
don't care what was going on with my husband. If
my kids had a little bobo, I was just all
on it and not paying any attention. So it's a
(36:20):
one of the things I would have done differently in
that space as well.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Yeah, it's so interesting to look back on my marriage
to my girl's dad and see those moments where I
should could have should have been more attentive to his
needs and to our relationship, and maybe things would have
ended up differently.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
True.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Yeah, now I know that being a mom and a
grandmother also means being a protector and time and time again,
people have come for your family. How do you continue
to protect your family when the entire world knows who
you are, they think they know who you are? How
(37:06):
do you protect your grandchildren who are born into this life.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
I just do the best I can do. But what
I have come to realize is that I can only
protect them so much and that I don't make it
my responsibility as much as I used to, like anytime
somebody said something that was untrue by my kids. You know,
the first I'm a mama bear and I'm going to
go for you and I want the truth to be
out there. And you know, it's not always best for
(37:33):
my kids. The outcome is not always best for them.
So I have really tried to work hard on just
controlling the things that I can, and that is blocking
out as much of the negativity as I can for
as long as I can, because sometimes I can control it.
(37:56):
My fingers just scope I'm on that you know post,
in that post to let somebody have it because they're lying,
because you know, I understand that we're public figures and
it comes along with the territory. I had an interview
and the lady on there asked me something very inappropriate,
and I asked her, why would you do that? You
(38:18):
know why we've had such a nice conversation. Why would
you do that? And she said, because you're a public
figure and I could ask you whatever I want to
ask you. So basically the thought process is that because
you have you're a public figure, that the sky's the limit.
I could just ask you anything, and you just got
to put up with my crap. And you know that's
(38:39):
not true, I mean, and I said to her, I
took the time to I had time that day, as
they say, And I said, I'm a human being, and
how would you feel if I asked you that question
that you just asked me? And she said, well, I said,
because you're a public figure too, you know you're interviewing me,
So how would you feel if I did that to you?
(39:00):
And I think that she thought about it and she apologized.
And you know, that's all we can do is try
to educate people on the fact that we are human
beings and that my grandchildren especially, I'm ready to fight, yeah,
because they has to be in this, you know, yeah, exactly,
So I think kids should be off limits. But I
(39:22):
just do the best I can do.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Well, this book will undoubtedly leave a legacy for your grandchildren.
What is one lesson you hope your grandkids take away
from you or this book? Even?
Speaker 2 (39:39):
I think a couple of things. One is that to
treat people the way you want to be treated that
is just as easy to be kind. You know. That's
really really key with me. And then I think the
second thing is that when it's all said and done,
if you have your family, the rest of that don't matter.
(40:03):
You know. I feel, honestly it sounds like a cliche,
but if I lost every single monetary thing that I
have in my life, if I have my family, my crew,
I'm gonna be fine.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
You'll be fine.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
I can get through it. And that's just the truth.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
That's a sign of a good family and a good
mama right there. Okay, I really think that this book
needs to be a movie. Who was gonna play you?
Speaker 2 (40:32):
I love this young actress. Her name is Andre Day.
I don't know. There's something in her that's a quiet
storm or just somebody that I feel is so strong,
but they don't have to always be the center of attention.
And I don't know, it's just so much about her
that resonates with me. And who I am and who
(40:52):
I was at her age, and so I would love for,
you know, for her to play me.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
I'm sure she would love it too, I know if.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
You're familiar with her, but she played Billie Holiday. Yes,
she killed that. She's wonderful beautiful too.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Well, you know we always pick somebody cute.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Oh yeah, come on, they have to represent before I
let you go, Miss Tina Knowles, what was your last
I choose me moment?
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Probably doing this book, you know, putting this book out,
because all along making the decision to do this book
was definitely I choose me moment because I'm still you know,
I mean, it's scary. Yeah, And it was hard this book.
(41:46):
Writing this book was really hard emotionally. I had to
relive a lot of stuff that you know, was very
painful for me. And so I think and I kept saying, Oh,
everybody's gonna be mad at me. You know, the Catholic
Church is going to be mad at me, the hospital
is gonna be mad at me. My kids are gonna
(42:07):
be mad at me. You know, my exes are going
to be mad at me. And at the end, I said,
this is my story, and I'm choosing me.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
Yeah, I got goose bumps again. I'm so excited for
everybody to read this beautiful book. If nothing else, just
have it on your shelf. Your cover is so gorgeous.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
You thank you so much, I mean, next level.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Thank you so I wish you all the best and
such an honor to have you on the show. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
It's an honor to talk to you too. And I
really enjoyed this conversation. I'm so glad it was great.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Good Okay, I'm so glad.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Thank you, good luck, thank you
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Thank you, Bye bye.
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Tori Spelling
Jennie Garth
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