September 4, 2024 • 54 mins
Founder of BrainMD and New York Times best seller, Dr. Amen, talks with Jennie about everything concerning the brain; from ANTs (automatic negative thoughts) and microplastics, to traumatic injuries, brain fog and more.
Plus Dr. Amen gives great tips on what we can do to keep our brain its healthiest.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garth. Hi, everyone,
welcome to I Choose Me. This podcast is all about
the choices we make and where they lead us. I
know this episode is going to be incredible because my
guest today is on a mission to end mental illness.
(00:25):
He is creating a revolution, you guys in brain health.
My guest today is a physician, an adult and child psychiatrist.
He's the founder of brain MD, and he hosts a
digital series called Scan My Brain that I Think I
was one of the first guests on. He's the author
(00:46):
of Change Your Brain every Day and is a twelve
time New York Times best selling author. He has worked
with high profile people like Miley Cyrus, the Kardashians, Justin Bieber, Belahadid,
and so many more. Please welcome my friend, doctor Amen
to the I Choose Me Podcast. Doctor Raman, Oh my gosh,
(01:08):
I've known you for so long. It feels like so long,
but it's not really that long, right.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
No, well, I think it's the four years maybe four years?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Yeah, right. Let's bring the listeners into our relationship and like,
have we met? We met a few years ago when
I heard from my friend Adele. She had sent me
your Instagram profile and I was so enthralled by the
content that you were putting out. I felt like you
were speaking directly to me, and I knew I had
to meet with you. Do you remember when I came
(01:40):
into your office the first.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Time I did so, you did my show Scan My Brain.
You are actually the first person we have now done
like one hundred and fifty episodes.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Oh my gosh, I'm so honored.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
And you were the first one. We were talking about
your memory and beautiful brain. It just worked way too hard.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah, when you told me I had a beautiful brain,
I was like, oh, that makes me feel good.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Absolutely, you've seen a few.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I was.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I remember I was kind of like in a dip,
you know, like a little a little bit of a depression.
I was really struggling with my memory and I was
getting more and more worried that I was developing like
early onset Alzheimer's or something. And I think that that
was Wait was that was that before the shutdown or
(02:36):
right after the shutdown? See see my memory still an issue.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
It's was right after.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Right after right after? Well, my memory is a lot better.
If you're wondering and you have taught me and my
daughters so much, like you've taught the world so much
about brain health and how to perform better and be
better and think better so that we're healthier. All the
(03:08):
things that you've done. Gosh, you've got to be proud
of yourself.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
I was excited every day to work with wonderful people
and help awesome people be just a little more awesome.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Yes, that's true. Why don't we start by talking about
high performance and the brain. You just got back from Paris, right,
you were there working with Olympic athletes who are pushing
their bodies to extremes. What kind of things do you
work on with someone like that on that level?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Well, so I was there on Alicia numan'st and Alisha
is a Canadian Olympic poll waulter, and she had a
bad concussion in April of twenty twenty one and developed
(04:03):
something called Arline syndrome, which is certain colors of light
disrupt the functioning in your brain. And she's depressed and
had a lot of what we call ants automatic negative thoughts.
And she actually told me she did my show as well.
(04:26):
She told me, if I don't get an Olympic gold medal.
I will be a failure and my children won't love me.
I'm like, oh, we have to talk about that, because
if you get an Olympic medal, you've just made your
children's lives harder, right, because it's hard to live up
to someone who is so accomplished. Anyways, I scanned her.
(04:52):
I could see the trouble in her brain. We worked
on it. She stopped drinking, because if you're an Olympic
pole vaulter, that's your sarahbellum back bottom part of the
brain that's involved in coordination, and alcohol is directly toxic
to your sarahbellum. So she stopped drinking. She stopped believing
(05:13):
everything she thought. She got rid of the idea of
always being in the future with fear, and we changed
it to every day I win or I learn. And
we also got rid of the idea of you have
to be the best. That's just such a toxic idea.
(05:36):
But you want to be your best, and so every
day we win or we learn. We get rid of
the idea of perfection, but we go for consistency and
being really good. And in twenty twenty three, she was
the world indoor pole vaulting champion and she got the
Bruns medal this year in Paris. It's emotional. It's so
(06:01):
fund for me to be there and to just watch
her perform at this incredibly high level. And one little
secret I told her because she would get really bothered
if she was around the other girls that were negative,
and that would like rub off on her, And I'm like, no,
that's your competitive advantage because when they're negative, well, that
(06:26):
turns off the cerebellum, it turns off the coordination part
of your brain. When they're negative, you're going to fly
higher than them that day, And there were only five
girls left at the end, and two of them were
negative and they didn't make the next bar. And it
(06:46):
was just so fun to sort of take the best
of my work and help her be just a little
bit better.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Oh my gosh, you said you're getting emotional about that.
I'm getting emotional about it. I don't even know her.
That's that's what a special position you were in to
be able to help her and then go there and
be on her team in such an intimate way and
such a part of her accomplishing that. Wow, that's really cool.
(07:16):
That's a good story. I mean, stress and anxiety. It
affects so many of us. Do you think there's really
anyone left out there who doesn't have those feelings?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Well, you want to hear something new I learned?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yes, please?
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Great? Freaking me out a little bit? Uh Aspertain, the
you know, Zerow, the diet coke, and diet pepsi and
over six thousand products. They did a study with mice
and they found when they gave the mass pertain, they
(07:53):
became very anxious, and their babies were anxious, and their
grand babies were anxious. So it had a generational negative fact.
And I think, you know, maybe I was twenty when
aspartain came onto the market and I thought it was free, right,
(08:17):
it's free, right, it's no calories.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, But it's not such free, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Because it changes some of the structures in your brain
to need it in order for you to feel okay.
But then you're more anxious. And in the study they
actually gave the mice valium to calm them down, and
that worked. But as you and I both know, valium
(08:45):
is addictive. Once you started, people don't stop it. It's
just a very bad thing. So could our societal anxiety
in part be to what we're eating or what we're drinking.
I mean, yes, there are obvious answers. The pandemic really
(09:08):
ramped up everything, the death tolls, the isolation, the fear,
and the virus itself. COVID activates your suffering pathway in
the brain. It was the most interesting thing when I
first started doing scans. So I saw you in December
(09:28):
of twenty twenty, so right after the pandemic started, and
I had scans. So I do a study for your listeners.
I do a study called spec that looks at blood
flow and activity, looks at how the brain works. And
I had all these scans that people before they got
COVID and then after they got COVID, and it was
(09:51):
like this inflammatory bomb went off in their brain, making
them more vulnerable things like anxiety and depression.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Wow. Okay, first of all, that's a bummer for those mice.
Second of all, it seems like the aspartain, not just
the valuum that they gave them, but the aspartain itself
is addictive, right right, Yeah, Okay, wait, rewind, what the
heck is a brain scan and why do people want
(10:27):
to get one?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Well, you know, the brain is like the only organ
people don't routinely screen right heart, You screen your calling,
you screen your cervix, you screen your brass, and the
most important work is your brain, right because it's your
brain that makes you who you are. And about thirty
(10:53):
three years ago I started looking at the brain with
this study called brain Spacked imaging spect stands for single
photon emission computed tomography that looks at blood flow and activity.
It looks at how your brain works, and it basically
shows us three things. Good activity, you had a lot,
(11:18):
too little that wasn't your problem, or too much and
that's what we saw in your emotional was working too hard.
And then I take the scan and I balance it
with lifestyle habits, with supplements, sometimes with medicine, and Jenny,
(11:39):
imagine with me. Last year, there were three hundred and
forty million prescriptions written for antidepressants in the United States.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Wait wait, wait, go back, how many again? That's a
big number.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Three hundred and forty million million descriptions. Twenty five percent
of women in the United States are taking get an antidepressant.
That is not an okay number. Twenty five percent of
women do not have they're not born with a serotonin deficiency,
but all of these people who got these medications, no
(12:14):
one ever looked at their brain. So they're changing the
brain without any guidance on how to do it. And
so since I started looking at the brain, I learned,
like all these important things, mild traumatic brain injury is
a major cause of psychiatric problems and nobody knows it.
(12:39):
And remember you told me about the accident that you had.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yes, yes, I had. I'll tell our listeners. I had
an accident when I was in my early twenties. I
was run over by a jet ski in the Pacific Ocean.
The person that was driving the jet ski was Luperry,
and so we always got a good giggle out of that.
But I did totally pass out, black out whatever, go unconscious,
(13:05):
and I woke up and I was being asked all
these questions on the beach by the paramedics. So, yeah,
that was the only time I can really remember a
hit to the head, a traumatic brain injury or concussion
of any kind.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Yeah, well that was big. But you know, I didn't
really see that in your brain, which.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Meant, well, you saw a little, didn't Yeah, but.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
It was little opposed to you know, can this explain
the problems with your memory, and so the brain can heal,
But so many of my patients it's the traumatic brain
injury that leads to the impulsivity that leads to the addiction,
(13:48):
that leads to the depression. And we can fix it,
but you can't fix something you don't know.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Is there bingo? I mean, yeah, you've told me before.
Like all my years dealing with my dad and his
heart disease, they would never have prescribed him medication for
his heart if they hadn't gone and done a sonogram
and looked at it from every angle to know what
the problem was. And then to think, all these years
(14:21):
myself and many many other people have been getting prescribed
medication for their brain and nobody's ever even looked at
it until you.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah, it's a bit insane.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah, it really is. You talked about ants. I think
you were the first person that taught me about ants,
and you tell them what ants is, what ants are.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
So goodness, it was over thirty years ago. I'm in
my office and it was a bad day. Not a
bad day. It was a hard day. Four suicidal patients,
two teenagers who'd run away from home, and two couples
who hated each other at the end of the day,
I walk I go home and I walk into the
(15:13):
kitchen and it's got an ant infestation in the kitchen
and I'm cleaning up what feels like thousands of ants.
And as I'm doing it, and the ants start like
crawling out my arm and I'm like, automatic negative thoughts, ants.
My patients are infested with ants. And so I finished
(15:38):
it cleaning up. And then the next day I brought
a can of ant spray to work and I start
talking about it. I'm like, it's like, you have this
investation of ants in your mind and I have to
teach you to get rid of them. And then I
realize ant spray is probably too toxic. And that weekend
(15:58):
I went to Peer thirty nine and San Francisco and
they have a puppet store there that's really awesome, and
I got an ant puppet and then later an ant
eater puppet. And because I also see kids, so I'm
always thinking about, you know, analogies that they'll understand. And
actually have a book called Captain Snout and the Superpower
(16:20):
Questions where we teach kids to kill the ants that
just pop up in their head. And I was twenty
eight years old in my psychiatric residency when I heard
a professor say, you have to teach your patients not
to believe every stupid thing they think. And that was
(16:41):
such a revelation because I believed every stupid thing I thought.
And I'm like, what you know. Thoughts come from all
sorts of places. They come from your genes. Sometimes, you know,
trauma's written in your genetic based on what happened to
(17:01):
your mom or dad. Sometimes they come from the voices
of your mom or dad. From I grew up in
a Catholic church, I had lots of guilt voices. Sometimes
your siblings or friends or foes, you know, those of
you who've been blessed and cursed to be in the
public eye from the crazy journalists for clickbait. Lots come
(17:26):
from all sorts of places, And just because you have
a thought has nothing to do with whether or not
it's true, whether or not it's helpful, and whether or
not you should attach to it, Because it's not the
thoughts you have that make you suffer. It's the thoughts
you attached to that make you suffer. And so the
(17:47):
exercise is, whenever you feel sad, mad, nervous, or out
of control, just write down what you're thinking, and then
ask yourself whether or not it's true, whether or not
it's helpful, whether or not it's going to get you
what you want in life, or if it's toxic and
(18:08):
it needs to go. And it's a discipline, right, I
believe people have to do the process like a hundred
times to just retrain your brain. So Alicia's thought that
we started with is I will be a failure if
(18:30):
I don't get a gold medal and my children won't
love me. Well, that's clearly distorted, not helpful thinking. We
killed at least a hundred of her aunts, and so
when she's at the most stressful time, she does her
personal best because on the runway on the track, she
(18:56):
imagined white lines and they will hot colds, and they
were to prevent the ants from jumping over into her lane.
And it's like, no, I don't have to believe that
today I win or I learn.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
I think everybody has ants. Right. I love when you
taught me that a thought leads to a feeling, leads.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
To an action and then the outcome.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
That's so incredible to just break that down because it's
so simple to understand, just because you have a feeling.
What you said doesn't make it true. And I literally
just had I was having a little moment with my
husband last night, literally was like, that is a feeling
you're having and it's not doesn't make it true. So
(19:52):
I was quoting you in my argument last night.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
We're good ants if you have ants and your husband
has hands and the ants mate, Oh God, create super ants.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
I have three super ants living in my house.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
And so you know, with my wife, I'm always really
clear with what I want. I want a kind, caring, loving, supportive,
passionate relationship. I want that all the time. But I
don't feel like that all the time. Right. I have
rude thoughts that just show.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Up what you mean, You're human.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Absolutely, and I don't say them because it doesn't get
me what I want. And I find I spend a
lot of time with my patients going, Okay, what do
you want? Remember, I think we did the exercise, the
one page miracle on what piece of paper write down
what do you want? Relationships, work, money, physical, emotional, spiritual health?
(21:04):
What do you want? So you have to actually tell
your brain what you want, and then the question is
does it fit If I say this, will give me
a kind, caring, loving, supportive, passionate relationship or not. And
(21:28):
I remember once we were fussing over a piece of
property we were thinking of mining, and I heard the
criticism come up in my head, and I'm like, that
is not going to get you what you want. And
I collect penguins. When you were in my office, you
probably saw I have penguins. And the penguins are about
(21:52):
noticing what you like about other people, way more than
what you don't. Because every day we're training each other
by what we notice about each other. And so I've
lived with this concept, notice what you like more than
what you don't. And so in the fuss, I'm like,
(22:13):
how can you turn this around? And I'm like, you're
really good with real estate. So rather than the criticism
that had popped up in my head, I flipped it
and then just sort of let it go a little bit.
And then she went, oh, this is probably not a
(22:35):
good decision. So yes, you flip the thought. I flipped
the thought right, rather than criticize her, notice what I
like about her? Right, Because every day you're training. We
teach people how to treat us by what we tolerate,
(22:55):
but we also teach them how to treat us by
what we notice about them. So I have this great story.
So I have this patient I saw, and she was fourteen.
When I first saw, she had tried to kill herself.
And this is two years later. She's doing great. And
(23:16):
then she shipped conflicts with her mother. She came in
one day and she's very angry and she said, I'm
gonna run away from home and you can't stop me.
And she went on and on. And then she looked
around my office and noticed I collect penguins. And she's like,
and Doctor Eymond White is a grown man collect penguins.
I laughed. I said, you've been seeing me for two years,
(23:39):
you're just noticing them. And then I told her this story.
When my son was seven, So this is forty years ago.
My son was seven. He was really hard for me.
And I was doing my child's skyatry training and I said,
I went to my supervisor and I said, he's really
hard for me. Help me. He said, you need to
spend more a long time with you. So I took him.
(24:01):
I was doing my training in Hawaii to a place
called Sea Life Park on O Wahoo and they have
sea animal shows. And I went to the whale show
and the dolphin show and the sea lion show, and
I was all great. And at the end of the
day he goes, I want to see fat Freddy and
I'm like, who's that. It's like the penguin, Dad, don't
you know anything that was of our relationships. But this
(24:24):
little penguin was so cool. He was a humble penguin
and he was chubby. Why it was called that Freddy.
And he comes on the stage, climbs a high diving board,
goes to the end of the board, bounces, jumps in
the water like the whoa. Then he bowls with his nose,
counts with his flipper, jumps through a fire and I'm like,
(24:48):
this is cool. And at the end of the show,
the trainer asked Freddy to go get something. Freddy went
and got it and he brought it right back, and
in my mind, I went, damn, I asked this kid
get something for me, and he wants to have a
discussion for like thirty minutes and then he doesn't want
to do it. And I knew my son was smarter
than the penguin. So I went up to the trainer
(25:10):
afterwards and I'm like, how did you get Freddy to
do all these really cool things. And she looked at
my son, and then she looked at me, and she said,
unlike parents, whenever Freddy does anything like what I want
him to do, I notice him. I give him a hug,
and I give him a fish. And the light went
on in my head that when he did what I
(25:30):
wanted him to do, I wasn't paying any attention because
I was busy, But when he didn't do it I
wanted him to do, I gave him a lot of
attention because I didn't want to raise bad children. So
it's inadvertently teaching him to be troubled. And so I'm
telling my patient this and then I get this really
(25:50):
crazy idea, and she tended to be oppositional, and so
I'm like, you know, I have this really crazy idea.
You probably don't want to hear it. And so if
they're a little opposition of like, no, I have to
hear it now. And I'm like, well, what if we
shaped the behavior of your mother? And she goes I'm listening.
(26:13):
I said, what if whenever she's rude to you or
inappropriate to you, you don't overreact, you don't yell, scream,
stomp out and her eyes got really big, and I said,
but what if she is appropriate with her? You put
(26:33):
your arms around her and you tell her you love
her metaphorically, you give her a fish and she goes,
let's try it. And she texted me that night, I'm
not going to run away. Don't worry about me. And
two weeks later when I saw her, she said they
had the best two weeks and she brought me a
penguin for my collection. And so, you know, with your husband,
(26:58):
or my wife or the people who work with us,
can we be better at noticing what we like more
than what we do?
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Yeah, that really works. It's hard to remember to do
it in the heat of the moment, but if you
keep practicing at it, if you keep reminding yourself about it,
then it starts to become habitual and easier to access
in those moments of you know, a fight or an
argument or disagreement or whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah, the more you do it, it's building the pathway
in your brain. And so I didn't get a lot
of that grown up, which is why collect penguins, because
I have to constantly be reminded, notice what you like
more than what you don't, and actually they am. In clinics,
we have the no asshole rule. I don't get to
(27:56):
be an asshole, and neither do you, because kindness goes
with elevated service and it goes with better outcomes.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
I don't know this for sure, but brain scans aren't
customarily covered by insurance. Is that right?
Speaker 2 (28:23):
No, because it's not part of yet the standard of care.
So most doctors will make diagnoses based on symptom clusters
with no biological data. And who wins in that scenario?
Insurance companies because they're not paying for any high technology
(28:47):
pharmaceutical industry is clearly winning, and doctors don't have to
do anything different. That's clearly of the future.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
And you said, yeah, right, so and is that going
to change anytime soon? Do you think?
Speaker 2 (29:05):
I don't know. The Canadian Society for Nuclear Medicine just
came out with procedure guidelines firstpect as if I wrote them,
and I think it is covered in Canada, so it will.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Change, I hope, So I hope. So are there exercises
or specific things that our listeners and myself can do
to keep our brains healthy and sharp and ant free ish?
Speaker 2 (29:32):
So brain health is three things brain envy. You want
to care about your brain. So nineteen ninety one I
scanned my mom, actually just saw her a little while ago.
She's ninety two. At sixty, she had a stunningly beautiful brain.
(29:53):
And then I scanned myself and it wasn't awesome because
I played football in high school and didn't sleep, and
it was overweight and just had bad habits. And I
was very upset that my sixty year old mother had
a better looking brain than I did at thirty seven.
And so I developed this concept called brain envy. I
(30:16):
wanted a healthy brain like hers. And then I went, oh,
Freud is wrong. Penis envy is not the clause of
anybody's problem. What we need people to do, need to
teach people to do, is have brain envy. And so
that's number one. You got to love your brain. Right.
I lived in Newport Beach, where we have more plastic
(30:36):
surgeons and almost anywhere in the world, and I'm like,
we care more about our faces, our boobs, our bellies,
and our butts than we do our brain. That's insane.
So the first step love the three pounds between your ears.
And that should be especially true for you because you
(30:57):
have a beautiful brain, so you just never want to
lose the healthy blood flowed to your brain. The second
thing is avoid things that hurts your brain. And so
you just have to know the list, and you know,
quite frankly, most seven year olds know the list. I
(31:17):
went to my daughter's second grade class and I went
and I went to the board and I drew twenty
things on the board, playing football, playing soccer, drinking orange juice,
going to bed early, taking your vitamins, staying up late
with your iPad. And I said, I want you to
just divide these into good for your brain and bad
(31:40):
for your brain. And out of the twenty things, they
got nineteen right. The only thing they missed was orange juice,
which they put in the good category when it really
belongs in the bad category because it's too much concentrated sugar.
And but you know some things that would surprise people.
(32:04):
If you have gum disease, you have brain disease. You
got to be a flossing fool. It's a flossing fool.
You want to take really good care of your teeth.
If you have a dysfunction, you probably have brain dysfunction.
Because if you have any blood flow problems anywhere likely
(32:25):
means they're everywhere. If you retire and you're not engaged
in new work or new passion, that's really bad for
your brain. So new learning is especially helpful, and you
doing the podcast, you're always learning something new and you're
(32:47):
a very curious person anyways, that's really good for your
brain process. Food terrible for your brain. Having an unhealthy
gut is bad for your brain. Having low levels of
Omega three fatty acids. So wild salmon taking fish oil
(33:08):
just essential for brain. Help texting while you dry. If
your brain is you are more likely to get a concussion.
And alcohol is just not a healthful it's not. The
American Cancer Society came out against any alcohol three years
ago because any alcohols associated with an increased risk of
(33:30):
seven different cancers. Marijuana is not innocuous, and people using
psilocybin like crazy now, and I'm very.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Concerned psilocybum like microdosing with mushrooms, right.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I'm very concerned about that because everybody thinks it's safe,
even though it's still illegal in forty nine states. There's
very little research on it. So the total number of
research studies involves less than a thousand people, Wow, it's
(34:08):
going to go the way I predict that benzos are
going to go, or opiates or alcohol or marijuana. You know,
I feel like I've seen this party before and it's like, oh,
it's innocuous.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Oh, but it grows in the ground. It can't be
bad for you, right, that's what people say.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
But cyanide grows in the ground and it's clearly bad.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Good point.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
And the first story of alcohol in the Bible is no,
it gets drunk after the flood and sort of makes
an ass out of himself, and then it causes this
generational family rift with the people. You know it naked son.
(34:56):
But it's like, how can I have any fun? And
we play We have a high school course called brain
Thrive by twenty five, and when we teach kids this
topic of what to avoid, invariably a boy it's never
a girl will raise his hand and go, how can
you have any fun? And so we play a game
with them called who has more fun? The kid with
(35:20):
the good brain or the kid with the bad brain?
Who gets the girl and gets to keep her because
he doesn't act like an idiot? Who gets the college
they want to get into. Who has the best jobs?
You know, becomes the best parents, the person with the
good brain or the person with the bad brain. And
I think that helps people sort of got it, So
(35:42):
avoid things that hurt it and then do things that
help it, like exercise. Low blood flow is the number
one brain imaging predictor of alzheimer. And so I walk
like a late for forty five minutes. It's four or
five times a week. I think that's so important. Coordination
(36:05):
exercises like tennis because it works out that cerehbellum part
of the brain we talked about before. Multiple vitamin vish oil,
optimize your vitamin D level, engage in new learning, and
know your risk. So I have the risk of heart
(36:26):
disease and obesity, and I don't have heart disease and
I'm not overweight. Why because every day of my life
I'm on an obesity heart disease prevention program. I adopted
by two nieces because their parents were drug addicts and
it was terrible for them, and so I've encouraged them
(36:48):
to be on an addiction prevention program every day their
lives and go to bed half an hourly. If you
want to better, remember tomorrow, and go to bed early tonight.
Without your gadgets, and don't be overrated. I published three
studies that show as your weight goes up, the size
(37:10):
and function of the brain goes down. And don't be skinny.
That's not good for your brain. But with seventy four
percent of the population overweight, this is it's just going
to cause huge long term cost to this country and
paint and suffering.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
I read last night, actually a horrifying article and it
said there was an increase in microplastics infiltrating our brains.
Have you been seeing this these signs in your studies.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
I have, and it's horrifying. And if you get in
Coca Cola's website because you always want to buy things
that do not have this phenol a in it.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Wait, leta go back. What's that word, this.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Phenol a or BPA's it's gas BPAs. It's what they
put in hands and plastics to make them harder, and
they're in every Coca Cola product, and Coca Cola is
proud of it, even though it's associated with autism, it's
(38:19):
associated with ADHD, it's associated with cancer. We need to
be much more thoughtful. When we know better, we have
to do better.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Why would Coca Cola be proud of.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
That because they're like, oh, there's not enough science, and
we are even though there is. So you know why
they would put that on their website is I think
of them as evil. And in my book The End
of Mental Illness, I wrote a whole section on if
(38:57):
I was an evil ruler and I I wanted to
create mental illness in our society, what would I do?
And that's an evil ruler strategy. I'd put a known
neurotoxin and then I'd brag about it, because if I
brag about it, then it makes you know. Coca Cola
has some level of authority even though it sells diabetes
(39:20):
water and it's like, oh, well, I trust it, sort
of like we like trust McDonald's and I'm like, no,
probably a bad idea.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Yeah. One study showed that we could be consuming a
credit card size of plastics in a week.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Yeah, that's really terrible. And so you have to ask yourself, Jenny,
why in nineteen ninety one was autism at one in
ten thousand children, and now here in California it's one
in twenty two boys, and it's one in thirty five
kids nationwide. It's like if I was going to have
(40:04):
babies today, I would be afraid that.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
I'm more discouraging doctor Emon.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Well, the encouraging news is you're not stuck with the
brain you have. You can make it better. You just
have to be thoughtful. And Tan and I, my wife
and I did almost a thousand Brain Warriors Way podcasts.
And the reason we called it the Brain Warriors Way
(40:32):
is you're in a war for the health of your brain.
Everywhere you go someone's trying to give you bad food
that will kill you hurly. Or every time you turn
on the news it's the same stuff, but it's negative,
negative terror or political divide. It's like, just turn it off,
you know, if you have to limit it to no
(40:54):
more than ten minutes a day and read a neutral site.
And now we have addictive gadgets that are stealing our attention.
As device youse went up, the incidents of add went
up as well. We just have to be thoughtful, careful
(41:17):
on what we do, and I'm always hopeful we'll figure
it out, but we need to be serious.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
And we need to be warriors.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Say the truth, and the truth is we can do
way better.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
I was going to ask you about technology, especially like
social media, and the world just seems to be getting
quicker and quicker and faster and faster. That's got to
be affecting our brains and our attention spans. I mean,
it's something we all probably know but conveniently forget. How
important is it to put our phones down before we
(41:55):
go to bed?
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Well, so, what does social media do and what devices
do they give? You? Just this little bit of dopamine
over and over and over and over again. And dopamine
is the neurotransmitter that helps you feel good, It helps
you feel motivated, it helps you focus, it gives you pleasure,
(42:18):
brings you joy when you dump dopamine. So, and I
think you and I talked about this. I mean, it's
really one of the problems with being famous early. It
just wears out the dopamine centers in your brain and
it leaves a lot of young people vulnerable to addiction
(42:42):
because they feel bad. Right, all these good things are happening,
but internally they feel bad because their brain has been
overflooded with dopamine. Well, devices, it's like you're dumping dopamine
all day long.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
But how am I getting dopamine when I'm seeing something?
And it makes me compare myself or it doesn't feel good,
it makes me feel I could feel jealous, I could
feel left out, all the negative feelings. How am I
getting dopamine?
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Then you're getting it from the hit of the notification.
It's like, oh, I have to look or scrolling and
you go, oh, that's really funny. Well that's really cool.
But then your serotonin levels dropping when you compare yourself
to someone else in a negative way. So dopamine gets released,
(43:43):
but then you don't have any store left. Serotonin drops
because the respect you have for yourself goes low. Cortisol
goes up because of the stress. And my wife said
it really she goes when I start scrolling, I start
thinking about what's wrong with me. She's like, I think
(44:04):
I have to fix something, as opposed to she wouldn't
have that thought at all if she wasn't scrolling.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
Yeah, I've convinced myself to stop scrolling. You know, I
post and I take care of my business on Instagram,
but I really do try try, try to have a
no scrolling policy. And I tell my friends, Look, if
you're doing something exciting and you want me to know
about it, just text me it because I want to
know what's going on for you, but I'm not going
(44:34):
to see it on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Yeah, and I think it's good to have a team
that does that. I mean, I think it's important. I
have seven million followers or something, and I love educating people.
But there's no way I'm going to spend all the
time curating in the comments. Because some people love me
(44:58):
and I'm grateful for that. Some people hate me and
I try to ignore that.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Yeah, it's a it's a slippery slope, blessing and a
curse because like you said, you know, we can do
like what we're trying to do and spread beautiful and
important messages, positive, uplifting, positive things, but on the other hand,
it can really amplify those negative thoughts.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
So can I tell you about something new I'm working on.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
So I'm working on a new book called Change your Brain,
Change Your Pain, and it's about the intersection of physical
and emotional pain. I turned seventy last month. Yeah, I
just started noticing it's my me, it's my hip, it's
my it's my shoulder, it's my knack. I'm like, what
(45:55):
is going on? And then I remember, you know, in
my work, some antidepressants like Symbolta or antidepressant supplements like
samy also work for pain. And so one of the
reasons I write is when I really want to get
(46:16):
excited about learning something new and it's been so much fun.
But the one big aha I got is all pain,
physical and emotional, is processed in the brain in these
three different pathways. And one of the things that puts
(46:39):
people a great risk for physical pain is repressed emotions.
And so I'm really good at noticing what I like
more than what I don't like. And I actually make
my grandchildren sit with me and watch Pollyanna the movie,
the Disney movie Pollyanna, because she plays the glad game
(47:02):
no matter what situation you're in, what is there to
be glad about in this situation? But what I've come
to realize is that repressed emotions, if you don't express them,
they punish you, they torture you. And I've been having
(47:22):
my patients do some rage journaling, and it's sort of
like Pollyanna meets the Hulk, and we have to honor
all of our feelings rather than I don't know in
your house, but in my house, my mother would say,
if you don't have something good to say, don't say
anything at all, and you just learn to bottle and
(47:46):
repress what makes you angry or frustrated without talking about
it or without finding ways to express it. And I
just think that's so important. I have a rule of twelve,
which I love. It's like I took ten ou to Paris,
(48:08):
and I'm like, twelve things are going to go wrong.
Let's just agree we're not going to get angry till
the thirteen thing goes wrong, and then we can yell
screen have a complete meltdown and three things went wrong.
And I love that because it goes with emotional flexibility.
The more flexible you are, the healthier you are. But
(48:30):
rolling with it doesn't mean rolling over that. When you
have strong feelings, it's important to find a proper, healthy
way to get them out of your body.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
And you think journaling is a good way to do that.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Rage journaling.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
I've done some rage journaling in my days.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
That's good because then you're just less likely to hurt
if you can admit your feeling lines and find a
way to get out. But then, so this is where
Pollyanna the Hulk sort of become best friends. It's we're
going to express it and then we're going to find
out what's good about it. Well we can learn from.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
Yeah, that's that's really good. Okay, there's you know me,
There's so many things I want to talk to you about.
I could talk to you forever, but I'm going to
save that question that I wanted to ask you. I'm
going to come back to that one when you come
back another time on the show. Okay, we talked about
the foods we could eat. We talked about all the things. Oh,
brain fog, brain fog. We've talked about this. I talked
(49:40):
to doctor Mary Claire Haver. We were talking about menopause
and the brain fog that comes associated with it. Is
our way to help us get rid of the brain fog?
Are there supplements we should take, activities we should do well?
Speaker 2 (49:57):
So you want to ask yourself, right, So I love
my brain? What am I doing that might be hurting
it to increase inflammation? And what can I do to
calm that down? And if you're a menopause, are you
taking bioidentical hormones to really give your brain the nutrients
(50:22):
it needs? Too? Many women are afraid of them, and
so they just sort of grit their teeth and try
to get through it. Do you know why your hormones
drop with age?
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Tell me.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
It's the planet's way of getting rid of you.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
Oh okay, well that's great.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
And I'm not okay with that now. So I'm like,
I'm not okay with that. I'm the CEO of Brain MD,
and we have a product called brain Tmax which helps
boost stosterone levels, absolutely essential for women, and in our study,
(51:05):
the women actually did better than the men. I mean,
I take it every day because I know how important
testosterone is, not just for libido, but also for memory,
for focus, for vitality, for strength. And Ashwood Bonda, which
is herbal product that I just love, decreases anxiety but
(51:27):
also increases testosterone. And my wife says when she takes
progesterone at night, this is the reason she's not on
the six o'clock news.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
So I take biodentical hormone therapy and my testosterone levels
are fine. But do you think taking a supplement like
you mentioned is important?
Speaker 2 (51:52):
Well, I think levels are fine, and there's a difference
between normal and optimal, and so if they're in the
upper half of normal, and I think that's fine. If
they're in the lower half of normal, then maybe taking
a supplement like brain temax could be helpful.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
Yeah, you got to get your blood checked though, right.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
Can't change what you don't measure.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
That's right, that's right, doctor Aymon. Before I let you go,
what was your last I choose me moment? The moment
where you choose yourself.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
I was in Paris as with my wife and daughter
and I love them so much. I was so excited
to help Alicia that I'm like, I'm going to go
separate and I'm going to focus and you guys, I
will see you later. And they were totally fine with it.
But you know, the usual me is like are you okay?
(52:53):
Can I take care of you? And it was like,
now I choose me because I want to to just
do the work I love so much.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
Wonderful, thank you being on my podcast. I love you
so much.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
I love you back. Thank you so much for helping
me share.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
My work always. Doctor Amen is such a wealth of knowledge.
We're going to have to have him back on because
there's just so much that I want to cover when
it comes to our brains. But that conversation was so
jam packed full of great information. I hope you guys
(53:33):
listen to I hope you took notes because the things
that he has taught me have changed my life. As
we continue to choose ourselves each week, I want you
to try something different and this is really actually going
to help your brain. I want to challenge you to
give a random act of kindness. You could offer to
(53:54):
pay for the coffee of the person standing behind you
in line, or you could send a handwritten to someone
just to brighten their day, or even more simple, give
a stranger a compliment on how great their outfit looks.
We get so caught up every day with jobs and
(54:15):
bills and responsibilities that it's really easy to forget to
spread kindness. I know what you're thinking, how is a
random act of kindness? And I choose me moment. Trust me,
you are going to feel good after you do it,
and that is going to make you want to keep
feeling this happiness of spreading joy. Thanks for listening to
(54:37):
I Choose Me. You can check out all our social
links in our show notes, rate review, tell me everything,
and use the hashtag I choose Me. I will be
right here next week, and I hope you will choose
to be here too,
You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garth. Hi, everyone,
welcome to I Choose Me. This podcast is all about
the choices we make and where they lead us. I
know this episode is going to be incredible because my
guest today is on a mission to end mental illness.
(00:25):
He is creating a revolution, you guys in brain health.
My guest today is a physician, an adult and child psychiatrist.
He's the founder of brain MD, and he hosts a
digital series called Scan My Brain that I Think I
was one of the first guests on. He's the author
(00:46):
of Change Your Brain every Day and is a twelve
time New York Times best selling author. He has worked
with high profile people like Miley Cyrus, the Kardashians, Justin Bieber, Belahadid,
and so many more. Please welcome my friend, doctor Amen
to the I Choose Me Podcast. Doctor Raman, Oh my gosh,
(01:08):
I've known you for so long. It feels like so long,
but it's not really that long, right.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
No, well, I think it's the four years maybe four years?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Yeah, right. Let's bring the listeners into our relationship and like,
have we met? We met a few years ago when
I heard from my friend Adele. She had sent me
your Instagram profile and I was so enthralled by the
content that you were putting out. I felt like you
were speaking directly to me, and I knew I had
to meet with you. Do you remember when I came
(01:40):
into your office the first.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Time I did so, you did my show Scan My Brain.
You are actually the first person we have now done
like one hundred and fifty episodes.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Oh my gosh, I'm so honored.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
And you were the first one. We were talking about
your memory and beautiful brain. It just worked way too hard.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah, when you told me I had a beautiful brain,
I was like, oh, that makes me feel good.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Absolutely, you've seen a few.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I was.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I remember I was kind of like in a dip,
you know, like a little a little bit of a depression.
I was really struggling with my memory and I was
getting more and more worried that I was developing like
early onset Alzheimer's or something. And I think that that
was Wait was that was that before the shutdown or
(02:36):
right after the shutdown? See see my memory still an issue.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
It's was right after.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Right after right after? Well, my memory is a lot better.
If you're wondering and you have taught me and my
daughters so much, like you've taught the world so much
about brain health and how to perform better and be
better and think better so that we're healthier. All the
(03:08):
things that you've done. Gosh, you've got to be proud
of yourself.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
I was excited every day to work with wonderful people
and help awesome people be just a little more awesome.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Yes, that's true. Why don't we start by talking about
high performance and the brain. You just got back from Paris, right,
you were there working with Olympic athletes who are pushing
their bodies to extremes. What kind of things do you
work on with someone like that on that level?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Well, so I was there on Alicia numan'st and Alisha
is a Canadian Olympic poll waulter, and she had a
bad concussion in April of twenty twenty one and developed
(04:03):
something called Arline syndrome, which is certain colors of light
disrupt the functioning in your brain. And she's depressed and
had a lot of what we call ants automatic negative thoughts.
And she actually told me she did my show as well.
(04:26):
She told me, if I don't get an Olympic gold medal.
I will be a failure and my children won't love me.
I'm like, oh, we have to talk about that, because
if you get an Olympic medal, you've just made your
children's lives harder, right, because it's hard to live up
to someone who is so accomplished. Anyways, I scanned her.
(04:52):
I could see the trouble in her brain. We worked
on it. She stopped drinking, because if you're an Olympic
pole vaulter, that's your sarahbellum back bottom part of the
brain that's involved in coordination, and alcohol is directly toxic
to your sarahbellum. So she stopped drinking. She stopped believing
(05:13):
everything she thought. She got rid of the idea of
always being in the future with fear, and we changed
it to every day I win or I learn. And
we also got rid of the idea of you have
to be the best. That's just such a toxic idea.
(05:36):
But you want to be your best, and so every
day we win or we learn. We get rid of
the idea of perfection, but we go for consistency and
being really good. And in twenty twenty three, she was
the world indoor pole vaulting champion and she got the
Bruns medal this year in Paris. It's emotional. It's so
(06:01):
fund for me to be there and to just watch
her perform at this incredibly high level. And one little
secret I told her because she would get really bothered
if she was around the other girls that were negative,
and that would like rub off on her, And I'm like, no,
that's your competitive advantage because when they're negative, well, that
(06:26):
turns off the cerebellum, it turns off the coordination part
of your brain. When they're negative, you're going to fly
higher than them that day, And there were only five
girls left at the end, and two of them were
negative and they didn't make the next bar. And it
(06:46):
was just so fun to sort of take the best
of my work and help her be just a little
bit better.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Oh my gosh, you said you're getting emotional about that.
I'm getting emotional about it. I don't even know her.
That's that's what a special position you were in to
be able to help her and then go there and
be on her team in such an intimate way and
such a part of her accomplishing that. Wow, that's really cool.
(07:16):
That's a good story. I mean, stress and anxiety. It
affects so many of us. Do you think there's really
anyone left out there who doesn't have those feelings?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Well, you want to hear something new I learned?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yes, please?
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Great? Freaking me out a little bit? Uh Aspertain, the
you know, Zerow, the diet coke, and diet pepsi and
over six thousand products. They did a study with mice
and they found when they gave the mass pertain, they
(07:53):
became very anxious, and their babies were anxious, and their
grand babies were anxious. So it had a generational negative fact.
And I think, you know, maybe I was twenty when
aspartain came onto the market and I thought it was free, right,
(08:17):
it's free, right, it's no calories.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, But it's not such free, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Because it changes some of the structures in your brain
to need it in order for you to feel okay.
But then you're more anxious. And in the study they
actually gave the mice valium to calm them down, and
that worked. But as you and I both know, valium
(08:45):
is addictive. Once you started, people don't stop it. It's
just a very bad thing. So could our societal anxiety
in part be to what we're eating or what we're drinking.
I mean, yes, there are obvious answers. The pandemic really
(09:08):
ramped up everything, the death tolls, the isolation, the fear,
and the virus itself. COVID activates your suffering pathway in
the brain. It was the most interesting thing when I
first started doing scans. So I saw you in December
(09:28):
of twenty twenty, so right after the pandemic started, and
I had scans. So I do a study for your listeners.
I do a study called spec that looks at blood
flow and activity, looks at how the brain works. And
I had all these scans that people before they got
COVID and then after they got COVID, and it was
(09:51):
like this inflammatory bomb went off in their brain, making
them more vulnerable things like anxiety and depression.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Wow. Okay, first of all, that's a bummer for those mice.
Second of all, it seems like the aspartain, not just
the valuum that they gave them, but the aspartain itself
is addictive, right right, Yeah, Okay, wait, rewind, what the
heck is a brain scan and why do people want
(10:27):
to get one?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Well, you know, the brain is like the only organ
people don't routinely screen right heart, You screen your calling,
you screen your cervix, you screen your brass, and the
most important work is your brain, right because it's your
brain that makes you who you are. And about thirty
(10:53):
three years ago I started looking at the brain with
this study called brain Spacked imaging spect stands for single
photon emission computed tomography that looks at blood flow and activity.
It looks at how your brain works, and it basically
shows us three things. Good activity, you had a lot,
(11:18):
too little that wasn't your problem, or too much and
that's what we saw in your emotional was working too hard.
And then I take the scan and I balance it
with lifestyle habits, with supplements, sometimes with medicine, and Jenny,
(11:39):
imagine with me. Last year, there were three hundred and
forty million prescriptions written for antidepressants in the United States.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Wait wait, wait, go back, how many again? That's a
big number.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Three hundred and forty million million descriptions. Twenty five percent
of women in the United States are taking get an antidepressant.
That is not an okay number. Twenty five percent of
women do not have they're not born with a serotonin deficiency,
but all of these people who got these medications, no
(12:14):
one ever looked at their brain. So they're changing the
brain without any guidance on how to do it. And
so since I started looking at the brain, I learned,
like all these important things, mild traumatic brain injury is
a major cause of psychiatric problems and nobody knows it.
(12:39):
And remember you told me about the accident that you had.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yes, yes, I had. I'll tell our listeners. I had
an accident when I was in my early twenties. I
was run over by a jet ski in the Pacific Ocean.
The person that was driving the jet ski was Luperry,
and so we always got a good giggle out of that.
But I did totally pass out, black out whatever, go unconscious,
(13:05):
and I woke up and I was being asked all
these questions on the beach by the paramedics. So, yeah,
that was the only time I can really remember a
hit to the head, a traumatic brain injury or concussion
of any kind.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Yeah, well that was big. But you know, I didn't
really see that in your brain, which.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Meant, well, you saw a little, didn't Yeah, but.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
It was little opposed to you know, can this explain
the problems with your memory, and so the brain can heal,
But so many of my patients it's the traumatic brain
injury that leads to the impulsivity that leads to the addiction,
(13:48):
that leads to the depression. And we can fix it,
but you can't fix something you don't know.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Is there bingo? I mean, yeah, you've told me before.
Like all my years dealing with my dad and his
heart disease, they would never have prescribed him medication for
his heart if they hadn't gone and done a sonogram
and looked at it from every angle to know what
the problem was. And then to think, all these years
(14:21):
myself and many many other people have been getting prescribed
medication for their brain and nobody's ever even looked at
it until you.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah, it's a bit insane.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah, it really is. You talked about ants. I think
you were the first person that taught me about ants,
and you tell them what ants is, what ants are.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
So goodness, it was over thirty years ago. I'm in
my office and it was a bad day. Not a
bad day. It was a hard day. Four suicidal patients,
two teenagers who'd run away from home, and two couples
who hated each other at the end of the day,
I walk I go home and I walk into the
(15:13):
kitchen and it's got an ant infestation in the kitchen
and I'm cleaning up what feels like thousands of ants.
And as I'm doing it, and the ants start like
crawling out my arm and I'm like, automatic negative thoughts, ants.
My patients are infested with ants. And so I finished
(15:38):
it cleaning up. And then the next day I brought
a can of ant spray to work and I start
talking about it. I'm like, it's like, you have this
investation of ants in your mind and I have to
teach you to get rid of them. And then I
realize ant spray is probably too toxic. And that weekend
(15:58):
I went to Peer thirty nine and San Francisco and
they have a puppet store there that's really awesome, and
I got an ant puppet and then later an ant
eater puppet. And because I also see kids, so I'm
always thinking about, you know, analogies that they'll understand. And
actually have a book called Captain Snout and the Superpower
(16:20):
Questions where we teach kids to kill the ants that
just pop up in their head. And I was twenty
eight years old in my psychiatric residency when I heard
a professor say, you have to teach your patients not
to believe every stupid thing they think. And that was
(16:41):
such a revelation because I believed every stupid thing I thought.
And I'm like, what you know. Thoughts come from all
sorts of places. They come from your genes. Sometimes, you know,
trauma's written in your genetic based on what happened to
(17:01):
your mom or dad. Sometimes they come from the voices
of your mom or dad. From I grew up in
a Catholic church, I had lots of guilt voices. Sometimes
your siblings or friends or foes, you know, those of
you who've been blessed and cursed to be in the
public eye from the crazy journalists for clickbait. Lots come
(17:26):
from all sorts of places, And just because you have
a thought has nothing to do with whether or not
it's true, whether or not it's helpful, and whether or
not you should attach to it, Because it's not the
thoughts you have that make you suffer. It's the thoughts
you attached to that make you suffer. And so the
(17:47):
exercise is, whenever you feel sad, mad, nervous, or out
of control, just write down what you're thinking, and then
ask yourself whether or not it's true, whether or not
it's helpful, whether or not it's going to get you
what you want in life, or if it's toxic and
(18:08):
it needs to go. And it's a discipline, right, I
believe people have to do the process like a hundred
times to just retrain your brain. So Alicia's thought that
we started with is I will be a failure if
(18:30):
I don't get a gold medal and my children won't
love me. Well, that's clearly distorted, not helpful thinking. We
killed at least a hundred of her aunts, and so
when she's at the most stressful time, she does her
personal best because on the runway on the track, she
(18:56):
imagined white lines and they will hot colds, and they
were to prevent the ants from jumping over into her lane.
And it's like, no, I don't have to believe that
today I win or I learn.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
I think everybody has ants. Right. I love when you
taught me that a thought leads to a feeling, leads.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
To an action and then the outcome.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
That's so incredible to just break that down because it's
so simple to understand, just because you have a feeling.
What you said doesn't make it true. And I literally
just had I was having a little moment with my
husband last night, literally was like, that is a feeling
you're having and it's not doesn't make it true. So
(19:52):
I was quoting you in my argument last night.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
We're good ants if you have ants and your husband
has hands and the ants mate, Oh God, create super ants.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
I have three super ants living in my house.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
And so you know, with my wife, I'm always really
clear with what I want. I want a kind, caring, loving, supportive,
passionate relationship. I want that all the time. But I
don't feel like that all the time. Right. I have
rude thoughts that just show.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Up what you mean, You're human.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Absolutely, and I don't say them because it doesn't get
me what I want. And I find I spend a
lot of time with my patients going, Okay, what do
you want? Remember, I think we did the exercise, the
one page miracle on what piece of paper write down
what do you want? Relationships, work, money, physical, emotional, spiritual health?
(21:04):
What do you want? So you have to actually tell
your brain what you want, and then the question is
does it fit If I say this, will give me
a kind, caring, loving, supportive, passionate relationship or not. And
(21:28):
I remember once we were fussing over a piece of
property we were thinking of mining, and I heard the
criticism come up in my head, and I'm like, that
is not going to get you what you want. And
I collect penguins. When you were in my office, you
probably saw I have penguins. And the penguins are about
(21:52):
noticing what you like about other people, way more than
what you don't. Because every day we're training each other
by what we notice about each other. And so I've
lived with this concept, notice what you like more than
what you don't. And so in the fuss, I'm like,
(22:13):
how can you turn this around? And I'm like, you're
really good with real estate. So rather than the criticism
that had popped up in my head, I flipped it
and then just sort of let it go a little bit.
And then she went, oh, this is probably not a
(22:35):
good decision. So yes, you flip the thought. I flipped
the thought right, rather than criticize her, notice what I
like about her? Right, Because every day you're training. We
teach people how to treat us by what we tolerate,
(22:55):
but we also teach them how to treat us by
what we notice about them. So I have this great story.
So I have this patient I saw, and she was fourteen.
When I first saw, she had tried to kill herself.
And this is two years later. She's doing great. And
(23:16):
then she shipped conflicts with her mother. She came in
one day and she's very angry and she said, I'm
gonna run away from home and you can't stop me.
And she went on and on. And then she looked
around my office and noticed I collect penguins. And she's like,
and Doctor Eymond White is a grown man collect penguins.
I laughed. I said, you've been seeing me for two years,
(23:39):
you're just noticing them. And then I told her this story.
When my son was seven, So this is forty years ago.
My son was seven. He was really hard for me.
And I was doing my child's skyatry training and I said,
I went to my supervisor and I said, he's really
hard for me. Help me. He said, you need to
spend more a long time with you. So I took him.
(24:01):
I was doing my training in Hawaii to a place
called Sea Life Park on O Wahoo and they have
sea animal shows. And I went to the whale show
and the dolphin show and the sea lion show, and
I was all great. And at the end of the
day he goes, I want to see fat Freddy and
I'm like, who's that. It's like the penguin, Dad, don't
you know anything that was of our relationships. But this
(24:24):
little penguin was so cool. He was a humble penguin
and he was chubby. Why it was called that Freddy.
And he comes on the stage, climbs a high diving board,
goes to the end of the board, bounces, jumps in
the water like the whoa. Then he bowls with his nose,
counts with his flipper, jumps through a fire and I'm like,
(24:48):
this is cool. And at the end of the show,
the trainer asked Freddy to go get something. Freddy went
and got it and he brought it right back, and
in my mind, I went, damn, I asked this kid
get something for me, and he wants to have a
discussion for like thirty minutes and then he doesn't want
to do it. And I knew my son was smarter
than the penguin. So I went up to the trainer
(25:10):
afterwards and I'm like, how did you get Freddy to
do all these really cool things. And she looked at
my son, and then she looked at me, and she said,
unlike parents, whenever Freddy does anything like what I want
him to do, I notice him. I give him a hug,
and I give him a fish. And the light went
on in my head that when he did what I
(25:30):
wanted him to do, I wasn't paying any attention because
I was busy, But when he didn't do it I
wanted him to do, I gave him a lot of
attention because I didn't want to raise bad children. So
it's inadvertently teaching him to be troubled. And so I'm
telling my patient this and then I get this really
(25:50):
crazy idea, and she tended to be oppositional, and so
I'm like, you know, I have this really crazy idea.
You probably don't want to hear it. And so if
they're a little opposition of like, no, I have to
hear it now. And I'm like, well, what if we
shaped the behavior of your mother? And she goes I'm listening.
(26:13):
I said, what if whenever she's rude to you or
inappropriate to you, you don't overreact, you don't yell, scream,
stomp out and her eyes got really big, and I said,
but what if she is appropriate with her? You put
(26:33):
your arms around her and you tell her you love
her metaphorically, you give her a fish and she goes,
let's try it. And she texted me that night, I'm
not going to run away. Don't worry about me. And
two weeks later when I saw her, she said they
had the best two weeks and she brought me a
penguin for my collection. And so, you know, with your husband,
(26:58):
or my wife or the people who work with us,
can we be better at noticing what we like more
than what we do?
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Yeah, that really works. It's hard to remember to do
it in the heat of the moment, but if you
keep practicing at it, if you keep reminding yourself about it,
then it starts to become habitual and easier to access
in those moments of you know, a fight or an
argument or disagreement or whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah, the more you do it, it's building the pathway
in your brain. And so I didn't get a lot
of that grown up, which is why collect penguins, because
I have to constantly be reminded, notice what you like
more than what you don't, and actually they am. In clinics,
we have the no asshole rule. I don't get to
(27:56):
be an asshole, and neither do you, because kindness goes
with elevated service and it goes with better outcomes.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
I don't know this for sure, but brain scans aren't
customarily covered by insurance. Is that right?
Speaker 2 (28:23):
No, because it's not part of yet the standard of care.
So most doctors will make diagnoses based on symptom clusters
with no biological data. And who wins in that scenario?
Insurance companies because they're not paying for any high technology
(28:47):
pharmaceutical industry is clearly winning, and doctors don't have to
do anything different. That's clearly of the future.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
And you said, yeah, right, so and is that going
to change anytime soon? Do you think?
Speaker 2 (29:05):
I don't know. The Canadian Society for Nuclear Medicine just
came out with procedure guidelines firstpect as if I wrote them,
and I think it is covered in Canada, so it will.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Change, I hope, So I hope. So are there exercises
or specific things that our listeners and myself can do
to keep our brains healthy and sharp and ant free ish?
Speaker 2 (29:32):
So brain health is three things brain envy. You want
to care about your brain. So nineteen ninety one I
scanned my mom, actually just saw her a little while ago.
She's ninety two. At sixty, she had a stunningly beautiful brain.
(29:53):
And then I scanned myself and it wasn't awesome because
I played football in high school and didn't sleep, and
it was overweight and just had bad habits. And I
was very upset that my sixty year old mother had
a better looking brain than I did at thirty seven.
And so I developed this concept called brain envy. I
(30:16):
wanted a healthy brain like hers. And then I went, oh,
Freud is wrong. Penis envy is not the clause of
anybody's problem. What we need people to do, need to
teach people to do, is have brain envy. And so
that's number one. You got to love your brain. Right.
I lived in Newport Beach, where we have more plastic
(30:36):
surgeons and almost anywhere in the world, and I'm like,
we care more about our faces, our boobs, our bellies,
and our butts than we do our brain. That's insane.
So the first step love the three pounds between your ears.
And that should be especially true for you because you
(30:57):
have a beautiful brain, so you just never want to
lose the healthy blood flowed to your brain. The second
thing is avoid things that hurts your brain. And so
you just have to know the list, and you know,
quite frankly, most seven year olds know the list. I
(31:17):
went to my daughter's second grade class and I went
and I went to the board and I drew twenty
things on the board, playing football, playing soccer, drinking orange juice,
going to bed early, taking your vitamins, staying up late
with your iPad. And I said, I want you to
just divide these into good for your brain and bad
(31:40):
for your brain. And out of the twenty things, they
got nineteen right. The only thing they missed was orange juice,
which they put in the good category when it really
belongs in the bad category because it's too much concentrated sugar.
And but you know some things that would surprise people.
(32:04):
If you have gum disease, you have brain disease. You
got to be a flossing fool. It's a flossing fool.
You want to take really good care of your teeth.
If you have a dysfunction, you probably have brain dysfunction.
Because if you have any blood flow problems anywhere likely
(32:25):
means they're everywhere. If you retire and you're not engaged
in new work or new passion, that's really bad for
your brain. So new learning is especially helpful, and you
doing the podcast, you're always learning something new and you're
(32:47):
a very curious person anyways, that's really good for your
brain process. Food terrible for your brain. Having an unhealthy
gut is bad for your brain. Having low levels of
Omega three fatty acids. So wild salmon taking fish oil
(33:08):
just essential for brain. Help texting while you dry. If
your brain is you are more likely to get a concussion.
And alcohol is just not a healthful it's not. The
American Cancer Society came out against any alcohol three years
ago because any alcohols associated with an increased risk of
(33:30):
seven different cancers. Marijuana is not innocuous, and people using
psilocybin like crazy now, and I'm very.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Concerned psilocybum like microdosing with mushrooms, right.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I'm very concerned about that because everybody thinks it's safe,
even though it's still illegal in forty nine states. There's
very little research on it. So the total number of
research studies involves less than a thousand people, Wow, it's
(34:08):
going to go the way I predict that benzos are
going to go, or opiates or alcohol or marijuana. You know,
I feel like I've seen this party before and it's like, oh,
it's innocuous.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Oh, but it grows in the ground. It can't be
bad for you, right, that's what people say.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
But cyanide grows in the ground and it's clearly bad.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Good point.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
And the first story of alcohol in the Bible is no,
it gets drunk after the flood and sort of makes
an ass out of himself, and then it causes this
generational family rift with the people. You know it naked son.
(34:56):
But it's like, how can I have any fun? And
we play We have a high school course called brain
Thrive by twenty five, and when we teach kids this
topic of what to avoid, invariably a boy it's never
a girl will raise his hand and go, how can
you have any fun? And so we play a game
with them called who has more fun? The kid with
(35:20):
the good brain or the kid with the bad brain?
Who gets the girl and gets to keep her because
he doesn't act like an idiot? Who gets the college
they want to get into. Who has the best jobs?
You know, becomes the best parents, the person with the
good brain or the person with the bad brain. And
I think that helps people sort of got it, So
(35:42):
avoid things that hurt it and then do things that
help it, like exercise. Low blood flow is the number
one brain imaging predictor of alzheimer. And so I walk
like a late for forty five minutes. It's four or
five times a week. I think that's so important. Coordination
(36:05):
exercises like tennis because it works out that cerehbellum part
of the brain we talked about before. Multiple vitamin vish oil,
optimize your vitamin D level, engage in new learning, and
know your risk. So I have the risk of heart
(36:26):
disease and obesity, and I don't have heart disease and
I'm not overweight. Why because every day of my life
I'm on an obesity heart disease prevention program. I adopted
by two nieces because their parents were drug addicts and
it was terrible for them, and so I've encouraged them
(36:48):
to be on an addiction prevention program every day their
lives and go to bed half an hourly. If you
want to better, remember tomorrow, and go to bed early tonight.
Without your gadgets, and don't be overrated. I published three
studies that show as your weight goes up, the size
(37:10):
and function of the brain goes down. And don't be skinny.
That's not good for your brain. But with seventy four
percent of the population overweight, this is it's just going
to cause huge long term cost to this country and
paint and suffering.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
I read last night, actually a horrifying article and it
said there was an increase in microplastics infiltrating our brains.
Have you been seeing this these signs in your studies.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
I have, and it's horrifying. And if you get in
Coca Cola's website because you always want to buy things
that do not have this phenol a in it.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Wait, leta go back. What's that word, this.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Phenol a or BPA's it's gas BPAs. It's what they
put in hands and plastics to make them harder, and
they're in every Coca Cola product, and Coca Cola is
proud of it, even though it's associated with autism, it's
(38:19):
associated with ADHD, it's associated with cancer. We need to
be much more thoughtful. When we know better, we have
to do better.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Why would Coca Cola be proud of.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
That because they're like, oh, there's not enough science, and
we are even though there is. So you know why
they would put that on their website is I think
of them as evil. And in my book The End
of Mental Illness, I wrote a whole section on if
(38:57):
I was an evil ruler and I I wanted to
create mental illness in our society, what would I do?
And that's an evil ruler strategy. I'd put a known
neurotoxin and then I'd brag about it, because if I
brag about it, then it makes you know. Coca Cola
has some level of authority even though it sells diabetes
(39:20):
water and it's like, oh, well, I trust it, sort
of like we like trust McDonald's and I'm like, no,
probably a bad idea.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Yeah. One study showed that we could be consuming a
credit card size of plastics in a week.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Yeah, that's really terrible. And so you have to ask yourself, Jenny,
why in nineteen ninety one was autism at one in
ten thousand children, and now here in California it's one
in twenty two boys, and it's one in thirty five
kids nationwide. It's like if I was going to have
(40:04):
babies today, I would be afraid that.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
I'm more discouraging doctor Emon.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Well, the encouraging news is you're not stuck with the
brain you have. You can make it better. You just
have to be thoughtful. And Tan and I, my wife
and I did almost a thousand Brain Warriors Way podcasts.
And the reason we called it the Brain Warriors Way
(40:32):
is you're in a war for the health of your brain.
Everywhere you go someone's trying to give you bad food
that will kill you hurly. Or every time you turn
on the news it's the same stuff, but it's negative,
negative terror or political divide. It's like, just turn it off,
you know, if you have to limit it to no
(40:54):
more than ten minutes a day and read a neutral site.
And now we have addictive gadgets that are stealing our attention.
As device youse went up, the incidents of add went
up as well. We just have to be thoughtful, careful
(41:17):
on what we do, and I'm always hopeful we'll figure
it out, but we need to be serious.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
And we need to be warriors.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Say the truth, and the truth is we can do
way better.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
I was going to ask you about technology, especially like
social media, and the world just seems to be getting
quicker and quicker and faster and faster. That's got to
be affecting our brains and our attention spans. I mean,
it's something we all probably know but conveniently forget. How
important is it to put our phones down before we
(41:55):
go to bed?
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Well, so, what does social media do and what devices
do they give? You? Just this little bit of dopamine
over and over and over and over again. And dopamine
is the neurotransmitter that helps you feel good, It helps
you feel motivated, it helps you focus, it gives you pleasure,
(42:18):
brings you joy when you dump dopamine. So, and I
think you and I talked about this. I mean, it's
really one of the problems with being famous early. It
just wears out the dopamine centers in your brain and
it leaves a lot of young people vulnerable to addiction
(42:42):
because they feel bad. Right, all these good things are happening,
but internally they feel bad because their brain has been
overflooded with dopamine. Well, devices, it's like you're dumping dopamine
all day long.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
But how am I getting dopamine when I'm seeing something?
And it makes me compare myself or it doesn't feel good,
it makes me feel I could feel jealous, I could
feel left out, all the negative feelings. How am I
getting dopamine?
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Then you're getting it from the hit of the notification.
It's like, oh, I have to look or scrolling and
you go, oh, that's really funny. Well that's really cool.
But then your serotonin levels dropping when you compare yourself
to someone else in a negative way. So dopamine gets released,
(43:43):
but then you don't have any store left. Serotonin drops
because the respect you have for yourself goes low. Cortisol
goes up because of the stress. And my wife said
it really she goes when I start scrolling, I start
thinking about what's wrong with me. She's like, I think
(44:04):
I have to fix something, as opposed to she wouldn't
have that thought at all if she wasn't scrolling.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
Yeah, I've convinced myself to stop scrolling. You know, I
post and I take care of my business on Instagram,
but I really do try try, try to have a
no scrolling policy. And I tell my friends, Look, if
you're doing something exciting and you want me to know
about it, just text me it because I want to
know what's going on for you, but I'm not going
(44:34):
to see it on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Yeah, and I think it's good to have a team
that does that. I mean, I think it's important. I
have seven million followers or something, and I love educating people.
But there's no way I'm going to spend all the
time curating in the comments. Because some people love me
(44:58):
and I'm grateful for that. Some people hate me and
I try to ignore that.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Yeah, it's a it's a slippery slope, blessing and a
curse because like you said, you know, we can do
like what we're trying to do and spread beautiful and
important messages, positive, uplifting, positive things, but on the other hand,
it can really amplify those negative thoughts.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
So can I tell you about something new I'm working on.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
So I'm working on a new book called Change your Brain,
Change Your Pain, and it's about the intersection of physical
and emotional pain. I turned seventy last month. Yeah, I
just started noticing it's my me, it's my hip, it's
my it's my shoulder, it's my knack. I'm like, what
(45:55):
is going on? And then I remember, you know, in
my work, some antidepressants like Symbolta or antidepressant supplements like
samy also work for pain. And so one of the
reasons I write is when I really want to get
(46:16):
excited about learning something new and it's been so much fun.
But the one big aha I got is all pain,
physical and emotional, is processed in the brain in these
three different pathways. And one of the things that puts
(46:39):
people a great risk for physical pain is repressed emotions.
And so I'm really good at noticing what I like
more than what I don't like. And I actually make
my grandchildren sit with me and watch Pollyanna the movie,
the Disney movie Pollyanna, because she plays the glad game
(47:02):
no matter what situation you're in, what is there to
be glad about in this situation? But what I've come
to realize is that repressed emotions, if you don't express them,
they punish you, they torture you. And I've been having
(47:22):
my patients do some rage journaling, and it's sort of
like Pollyanna meets the Hulk, and we have to honor
all of our feelings rather than I don't know in
your house, but in my house, my mother would say,
if you don't have something good to say, don't say
anything at all, and you just learn to bottle and
(47:46):
repress what makes you angry or frustrated without talking about
it or without finding ways to express it. And I
just think that's so important. I have a rule of twelve,
which I love. It's like I took ten ou to Paris,
(48:08):
and I'm like, twelve things are going to go wrong.
Let's just agree we're not going to get angry till
the thirteen thing goes wrong, and then we can yell
screen have a complete meltdown and three things went wrong.
And I love that because it goes with emotional flexibility.
The more flexible you are, the healthier you are. But
(48:30):
rolling with it doesn't mean rolling over that. When you
have strong feelings, it's important to find a proper, healthy
way to get them out of your body.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
And you think journaling is a good way to do that.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Rage journaling.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
I've done some rage journaling in my days.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
That's good because then you're just less likely to hurt
if you can admit your feeling lines and find a
way to get out. But then, so this is where
Pollyanna the Hulk sort of become best friends. It's we're
going to express it and then we're going to find
out what's good about it. Well we can learn from.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
Yeah, that's that's really good. Okay, there's you know me,
There's so many things I want to talk to you about.
I could talk to you forever, but I'm going to
save that question that I wanted to ask you. I'm
going to come back to that one when you come
back another time on the show. Okay, we talked about
the foods we could eat. We talked about all the things. Oh,
brain fog, brain fog. We've talked about this. I talked
(49:40):
to doctor Mary Claire Haver. We were talking about menopause
and the brain fog that comes associated with it. Is
our way to help us get rid of the brain fog?
Are there supplements we should take, activities we should do well?
Speaker 2 (49:57):
So you want to ask yourself, right, So I love
my brain? What am I doing that might be hurting
it to increase inflammation? And what can I do to
calm that down? And if you're a menopause, are you
taking bioidentical hormones to really give your brain the nutrients
(50:22):
it needs? Too? Many women are afraid of them, and
so they just sort of grit their teeth and try
to get through it. Do you know why your hormones
drop with age?
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Tell me.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
It's the planet's way of getting rid of you.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
Oh okay, well that's great.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
And I'm not okay with that now. So I'm like,
I'm not okay with that. I'm the CEO of Brain MD,
and we have a product called brain Tmax which helps
boost stosterone levels, absolutely essential for women, and in our study,
(51:05):
the women actually did better than the men. I mean,
I take it every day because I know how important
testosterone is, not just for libido, but also for memory,
for focus, for vitality, for strength. And Ashwood Bonda, which
is herbal product that I just love, decreases anxiety but
(51:27):
also increases testosterone. And my wife says when she takes
progesterone at night, this is the reason she's not on
the six o'clock news.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
So I take biodentical hormone therapy and my testosterone levels
are fine. But do you think taking a supplement like
you mentioned is important?
Speaker 2 (51:52):
Well, I think levels are fine, and there's a difference
between normal and optimal, and so if they're in the
upper half of normal, and I think that's fine. If
they're in the lower half of normal, then maybe taking
a supplement like brain temax could be helpful.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
Yeah, you got to get your blood checked though, right.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
Can't change what you don't measure.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
That's right, that's right, doctor Aymon. Before I let you go,
what was your last I choose me moment? The moment
where you choose yourself.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
I was in Paris as with my wife and daughter
and I love them so much. I was so excited
to help Alicia that I'm like, I'm going to go
separate and I'm going to focus and you guys, I
will see you later. And they were totally fine with it.
But you know, the usual me is like are you okay?
(52:53):
Can I take care of you? And it was like,
now I choose me because I want to to just
do the work I love so much.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
Wonderful, thank you being on my podcast. I love you
so much.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
I love you back. Thank you so much for helping
me share.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
My work always. Doctor Amen is such a wealth of knowledge.
We're going to have to have him back on because
there's just so much that I want to cover when
it comes to our brains. But that conversation was so
jam packed full of great information. I hope you guys
(53:33):
listen to I hope you took notes because the things
that he has taught me have changed my life. As
we continue to choose ourselves each week, I want you
to try something different and this is really actually going
to help your brain. I want to challenge you to
give a random act of kindness. You could offer to
(53:54):
pay for the coffee of the person standing behind you
in line, or you could send a handwritten to someone
just to brighten their day, or even more simple, give
a stranger a compliment on how great their outfit looks.
We get so caught up every day with jobs and
(54:15):
bills and responsibilities that it's really easy to forget to
spread kindness. I know what you're thinking, how is a
random act of kindness? And I choose me moment. Trust me,
you are going to feel good after you do it,
and that is going to make you want to keep
feeling this happiness of spreading joy. Thanks for listening to
(54:37):
I Choose Me. You can check out all our social
links in our show notes, rate review, tell me everything,
and use the hashtag I choose Me. I will be
right here next week, and I hope you will choose
to be here too,
Hosts And Creators
Tori Spelling
Jennie Garth
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