Jillian Turecki: 9 Truths About Love That Hurt — and Heal - A Really Good Cry

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Do you think the idea that love is enough can
hold together a relationship.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Relationships actually rarely end because of lack of love. They
more commonly end because people don't feel seen, they feel misunderstood.
They go into a state of learned helplessness where they
don't see.

Speaker 3 (00:14):
Your way out.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Today, everyone, we have Gillian Tareki on the podcast Gillian,
you are a relationship coach, a teacher, a podcaster, a
riisa and a speaker. Why do people accept abuse in relationships?

Speaker 3 (00:27):
Over and over again?

Speaker 2 (00:28):
I've never known a person who has been in a
very unhealthy relationship and or an abusive relationship who also
did not struggle to accept who they are and loved
and loved themselves. Sometimes people stay in these relationships because
they don't know the way out, but most times it
means something needs to be looked at within. Why you
tolerate that?

Speaker 1 (00:48):
And for a woman who wants to stop rebuilding her
relationship with herself, do you have any specific practices on
how they can start changing their perception of what they deserve?

Speaker 2 (00:57):
One of the hardest questions to answer for everyone is
what do I want? What would make me feel more fulfilled?
And by doing that you start to learn how to
meet your own needs.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
I'm Radi Wkia and on my podcast A Really Good Cry,
we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing a space
for raw, unfiltered conversations that celebrate vulnerability and allow you
to tune in to learn, connect and find comfort.

Speaker 3 (01:24):
Together.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
Today, everyone, we have Jillian Tareki on the podcast. Gillian,
you are a relationship coach, a teacher, a podcaster, a writer,
and a speaker. And you've just told me that you're
also a yoga teacher for the past what was it
twenty five years?

Speaker 2 (01:38):
Well, I've been practicing yoga for the past twenty five
years and I tard it for about eighteen years.

Speaker 3 (01:43):
Yeah, incredible.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
And you've been helping people for over twenty years to
love themselves and others better through your experience in research
and your new book It begins with you, The Nine
Hard Truths about Love that will Change your life. It
is so beautiful and it shares such a practical approach
to achieving lasting self love and relationships. So thank you
so much for being here, and I'm so excited to
learn from you.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
Oh, thank you so much for having me. I been
so looking forward to this conversation.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
I know I told you this as you walked in
the door, but I need to say on camera because
when I started reading your book, I read it within
forty eight hours and I could not stop. Every single
page I was highlighting. I was turning the folding the
page over to remember to come back to it. And
you know, it honestly gave me so many moments of

(02:28):
reflection and things that I realized I hadn't noticed I
kept with me throughout my life, and that had impacted
so many different parts of my life without me even realizing.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
So thank you for that.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
I really needed those moments, and I think it's going
to make me so much better as a partner and
have better relationships even outside of even outside of my
my relationship with my husband, with other people in my life.

Speaker 3 (02:50):
So thank you, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
Oh my god, thank you. That's like music to my ears.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
Seriously, in this book, you go through nine core truths,
and honestly, I would love to walk our way through
them because I think they are so juicy each one
and I have so many questions from them. Okay, you
wrote in the first part that fulfilling relationship grounded in
connection intimacy and trust starts from within and the truth
one is it begins with you. So I would love

(03:17):
to get your insight on this and just expand on
it as much as you would like to do.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
When we look at all our relationships past and present,
the common denominator is me and just the common denominators you.
The common denominator is us. Not People misinterpret that or
can misinterpret that as oh, well, then I guess I'm
the problem. No, no, no, It just means you're the
common denominator. It just means that all our relationships are

(03:42):
a product of the choices that we make and the
choices of how we show up every day. The choices
and partner just choices, and there are choices that are
very much informed by our conditioning, beliefs and whatnot, but
they really are our choices, and that if we want
to make a change in our life, and very specifically
to this book, in our love lives, we have to

(04:04):
be the change that we wish to see because we
cannot change another person, and there's some circumstances that we
just cannot change, but we can change something from within.
And so I really wanted to write this and title
the book, It begins with you, because I wanted people
to feel empowered that if they wanted to make a change,

(04:25):
it actually is possible. It's takes some work, there is
some emotional labor involved. But life doesn't get better blaming
mom or dad or history or anything like that. And
it doesn't get better blaming ourselves. But it does get
better saying Okay, how might I be standing in the
way of what it is that I say that I
really want.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
And if someone has this realization, because I think you know,
you can go through so much of your life where
you do get used to blaming other situations or other people,
and that can become a narrative and it can become
the place that we find safety, in the place that
we find comfort because if it's not me, then I
can't control it, which means I'm not in control of
the pain that I'm feeling. It's just happening to me.

(05:08):
But as soon as you start realizing that, oh, actually,
if it begins with me, that means I have control
of the things that pain me and the things that
hurt me and the situations I go through. So for
someone who just comes to this realization, they hear you
just saying it. What are some of the first steps
that people can do to start that process of creating
a better life for themselves.

Speaker 2 (05:29):
Yeah, well, I mean when it comes to relationships, Let's
say you're single and you're dating, you can ask yourself, Okay,
what are the type of people that I've been dating?
Is there is there a pattern? Is there a pattern
in the relationships that didn't work? Were they just randomly
just didn't work or was there a pattern? What are
my beliefs about love When I think about the world

(05:51):
love and relationships or marriage or partnership. What are some
of the first things that come to mind? If I
date men and I'm craving to be intimate with a
man emotionally like being a relationship with a man, is
there a part of me that also hates men? And
what is that all about? And I have to actually
investigate that. If I date women and I say I

(06:15):
love women, is there a part of me that doesn't
trust them? So these are the things that we need
to ask ourselves. And everyone is walking around, every single
person is walking around with some internal conflict. Yeah, and
so bringing that which is unconscious into our awareness saying okay, oh,
this is what I have a conflict about or this

(06:36):
is a belief that mom had that I have, or
you know, I saw my mom being treated a certain way,
and so this is what I've seen myself doing. And
just being able to do that necessary self examination.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
It's almost just becoming conscious of your natural patents, because
when you've been doing something for such a long time,
that pattern can feel like normality, yes, and then suddenly
when you tune in, you're like, wait, why do I
believe in this and why do I think? Like for me,
one of the things that I noticed when I started
dating or even when I started dating Jay, was my

(07:08):
vision of what a man should look like in the
house was purely based on my dad. My dad does
all the handyman work, so of course a man in
the house.

Speaker 3 (07:15):
Like Jay should be able to do the hands.

Speaker 1 (07:18):
He's a screwdriver, and if something breaks, he should be
able to fix it. And oh, my dad handles all
the finances at home. So that's what I would expect
Jay to do. And I realized that even though I
appreciated that in my dad, that wasn't necessarily you know,
That's all I knew of a husband was what I'd seen,
and so Jay didn't know how to use a screwdriver
when I met him, and like, he isn't the person
that like saying handyman work, but I was because I'd

(07:40):
learnt it from my dad. And so it's just interesting
the patterns and the things that you incubate within you
and you kind of put onto someone else before you
even meet them, Like you create this whole view of
what the person is based on your own experiences, and
then it's kind of setting them up a failure because
you're like, well, these are the boxes you have to
fit into before I even know whether you have those

(08:03):
skills or those abilities to do that. And I loved
what you said about how do you feel when those
when you hear those words, because I noticed I've started
noticing that in myself, Like when you said, how do
you feel when you think of the word marriage? Like
what are the initial not even just the thoughts, but
what feeling comes into your body?

Speaker 3 (08:22):
Do you cringe?

Speaker 1 (08:23):
Do you get scared? Do you feel excited? Like seeing
what the narrative is in your mind and your reactions
can be such a great depiction of whether it's an
area you need to work on.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yes, one hundred percent And I love what you said
about needing your future husband to kind of look, you know,
look a certain way. And this is this is this
is what we do, and this is we're skipping ahead.
But there is a chapter on LUs does not Love.
And what we tend to do is we have this ideal, right,
and we project the health the unhealthiest relationships, or the

(08:57):
relationships that start off really hot and heavy and then
crash and burn, like you know, three months in or
maybe six months in, people go and this is unconscious.
They project their ideal onto the other person. It's the idealization, right,
and then as soon as we start to get wind
of the fact that the person is just a person

(09:18):
with depth and nuance and flaws and shortcomings, that's when
we're like, oh, we're like we all our expectations are
sort of they cannot win. And then that's when we're like, oh,
this must not be love, or something must be wrong
or I'm just not into them. And so having that
awareness of just like, okay, so this is what I
was raised with, This is my projection of the ideal,

(09:41):
but maybe this is actually not You know, how many
people you think are missing out on a great relationship
because they have too many rules about how it's supposed
to look and feel and be versus is this is
this actually someone who's good for me?

Speaker 1 (10:00):
And what have you seen off to having spoken to
so many people and being in this world for a while,
what would you say look like the biggest hurdles that
people are having at the moment to actually getting into
healthy relationships.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
Definitely their own stuff over having to overcome their own selfishness.
You know, we have to sort of quote unquote normalize.
We can all be selfish, right, especially when it comes
to love. Because the thing is, there is nothing more
than a romantic relationship that's going to trigger in us
the fear of losing love. Yeah, so we don't want that,

(10:33):
you know, a state. We want to secure relationship where
we don't where you can go to sleep at night
and everything. We're not worried about the relationship ending. But
uncertainty is built into anything. We just don't know what's
going to last, what's not going to last, what's going
to happen in life? Right, So when we are triggered,
and some people are so triggerable because they haven't dealt

(10:55):
with the things that are triggering them, that we become
when or pushed to the edge of our insecurity, we
become obsessed with what we're not getting right, and we
don't consider what we're not giving, and then people forget.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
It's unbelief.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
I know, people have been together for years and in
many ways they're strangers to each other because they don't
actually know what the other person needs.

Speaker 3 (11:18):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
And so that's really what I see most in terms
of what people kind of get wrong about love. That
love is not is something that we receive, it's also
something that we give.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
Yeah, it's interesting because I think that that stems a
little bit from the idea of like a scarcity mindset
where you're constantly thinking about.

Speaker 3 (11:35):
What can I get, what can I get? What can
I get?

Speaker 1 (11:37):
And how can I keep this and how can I
take this? And many of us operate from a scarcety mindset.
And then that scarcety mindset isn't just in money, it's
in the relationship. So it's more how can I receive
versus what am I actually putting on the table? Like
what am I bringing to this? Yes, And that then
inten turns into oh I'm not receiving this or I'm

(12:00):
the one that's the victim. In this, and I'm the
one that's hurt in this because it's so much easier
being the victim. It is like, it's so much easier
being the victim than it is owning up to Oh
my god, I have so much work to do, and
I actually have a role to play in the demise
of this relationship or in the issues that we're having, or.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
I have a role to play in the success of
the relationship.

Speaker 3 (12:20):
Yes, yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, you wrote this in the book and I thought
it was really beautifully put. Your life will change too
when you realize that your relationship struggles are not because
they all cheat, but because you keep ignoring red flags
and choosing the cheaters. The problem isn't all the good
ones are taken, it's that you keep choosing the unavailable ones.
It's not that they didn't choose you. It's that you

(12:42):
haven't chosen yourself. And it's not that they're avoidant. It's
just that your anxiety may play a role too. The
story you share about yourself at the beginning of your
book is pretty heartbreaking, and I would love you if
you want to mind sharing it.

Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah, no, not at all. Many years ago, I guess
then now we're going back by thirteen fourteen years ago
I met the man who had become my husband. He
was in my class. I mean, what else are you
going to do? And I always say that our relationship
because we were before we got married, were together almost
two years, and I always say that our relationship pre

(13:17):
marriage was about ninety percent really good or great even,
and ten percent really problematic. And you might say, well, what,
that's a pretty good stat But the ten percent was
so profound, so so so so profound that when we
got married, the ten percent became the ninety percent, and

(13:37):
the ninety percent became the ten percent. And so what
I did is I ignored significant red flags. And I did
that because I just wanted to be married. I loved him.
The thought of losing him was too much. I just
didn't have that real sense of self. And then when
we got into the marriage, I didn't know how to
speak the truth. I didn't know how to love at
a level that I know how to love now, and
I didn't know how to stand up for myself at

(13:59):
a level that I do now. You know, he we
were having troubles, but then we were in a good
place and I was pregnant but did not know it
or yeah, or it was very It was very very
early on, and my mom had been diagnosed with lung
cancer was dying. And on June second, twenty fourteen, I

(14:20):
woke up to what was an early miscarriage, and he
texted me later that day from work that he wasn't
coming home, that he was going to go stay at
his parents. So he literally it was like he fled.
It was like totally fleeing, the most awful thing you
can do to someone.

Speaker 3 (14:35):
And so that was you've been together.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
At this point we the Merit was exactly two years.
Exactly two years it was the next day was our
wedding anniversary. I entered a very significant dark night of
the soul because my mom was dying, my husband left,
and I had all these beliefs around, well, no one's
going to want me now I'm too old or you know,
all these things, and I'll have kids. My life didn't

(14:59):
match what I thought life would be. In fact, it
was so different, and I felt totally out of control
and I suffered immensely until I became obsessed with what
makes a relationship work.

Speaker 3 (15:13):
Obsessed.

Speaker 2 (15:13):
I could not believe that I was in this position
so I took all that pain and I channeled it
into learning, and I felt a calling to teach. This
definitely not glamorous, really hard. I needed a lot of help,
but I thankfully learned how to take something really painful
and turn it into something very purposeful and.

Speaker 3 (15:34):
I of interest.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
And obviously you don't have to answer this, but you know,
for many people who have been through really hurtful things
with their past relationships or something like this happening to
you that feels so traumatic and leave such an imprint
in you, do you feel like the work that you've
done has enabled you to actually feel like one you
forgive the situation, and two that you don't actually feel

(15:55):
the pain that came from.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
Great question, I don't feel the pain. So here's the
interesting thing about human beings. I could take some time
and really focus on it and not focus on it
like this talking about I mean, like in the quietude
of my own home and lay in bed and really
focus on it, and a lot of emotions would probably
probably come up, because that's what happens when you focus

(16:17):
on it. One, I don't feel any compulsion to focus
on it, and two yeah, no, I was able to
write about it, and I can talk about it with
no emotional charge. There's zero emotional charge A process that
one hundred percent. But the good news is or and
the good news is when I talk about it, I
can say objectively, that was a terrible thing that happened.

(16:38):
He did a terrible thing, But I don't feel angry.
There's no emotion behind that. It's truly very objective.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
Well, it's so nice that it's possible for people because
it is in the pain. I imagine at that time you
probably had no idea how you would have gotten through it.

Speaker 2 (16:54):
Oh, I really did not know how I was going
to survive. It was a very, very dark, ugly time
in my life. But yes, you just have to process it.
And part of processing it is examining the story. And
in the beginning I had to tell I told the
story of like, oh, you know, this was my story.
But then you know, you have to make things mean

(17:15):
something else, right, And that's part of how you get
out of a catastrophe like that.

Speaker 1 (17:21):
That's a great way of putting it. You have to
find a way to make it mean something else, because
I think for many people when they're going through the
thick of pain, especially in a relationship. It's like it's
so much easier said than done. Like my heart's broken.
I feel like I am broken. A whole part of
me has left, And you know, it's it's so hard
to create meaning from something that has ripped you apart.

(17:43):
And so it's it's interesting when you have to make
meaning separate meaning from it, because if you don't, then.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
It is just the pain it is.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
There has to be something else because otherwise there's no
other explanation for it. Then it is just pain that
you are supposed to feel, and it's supposed to feel horrible.

Speaker 2 (17:58):
Yeah, And in the beginning, when you're going through that
acute stage of it, the shock and all of that,
it is just all emotions. But as you start to
sort of like come out of that a little bit
able to i don't know, like live more of like
your life again, then it's time to re examine the
story and make some and make it mean something else.
That's why I feel so passionate about helping some people

(18:20):
like post divorce or post breakup, like okay, think about
like for a relationship. For most relationships that end, the
time leading up to it was really hard. It's a
lot of endless discussions about the relationship and anxiety, and
it takes up so much energetic and mental space that

(18:43):
so I try to help people. Okay, now you don't
have to spend your energy on that. Let's see, like,
do you need to find a greater sense of self? Now,
let's help you find meaning and purpose in life. That
so it's a little bit of a rebirth for you.

Speaker 1 (18:59):
Do you think man is people who have had a breakup.
Do you think there is like an equation of how
long you can spend wallowing when it's for you to
just get up and get going.

Speaker 2 (19:07):
It's so hard to say because it's not linear. Yeah,
certainly the first couple of months you can wallow.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
Said, it's like half the time of you give your
saying half the time in the relationship.

Speaker 3 (19:19):
But I'm like, what if you're in a relationship for
twenty five years?

Speaker 2 (19:22):
So that makes absolutely no sense. It makes absolutely no sense. Eventually,
you just want to get to the stage where you
know there's there's steps to healing. Like in the beginning,
you're just like sometimes you're devastated, right, and so you
can't even get out of bed, and then other times
it's just like Okay, I can focus on work today,
but maybe I like cry myself to sleep a little bit.
But I was able to do stuff today. But I'll

(19:43):
just never forget. As I was building this new life
for myself, I definitely felt hurt because I was also
mourning the loss of my mom. There was just so
much and I'll never forget someone saying to me, you know,
don't deny yourself the privilege of moving on. Those words
really stuck with me. It's like, why would I do
that to myself? Why would I deny myself that opportunity

(20:04):
and privilege to actually move on with my life? And
so letting go is a process. I'm definitely one of
those people where it takes a little bit longer to
let go. But I don't think that's good. I mean,
I accept myself regardless, but I don't think it's great.
I think that we have to really I want people
to teach their children to say next Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
And the longer you end up sitting in it, the
longer you're still in it, like you're reliving it over
and over again. So the pain still feels raw because
you're still living in that pain day in day out.
But if you're not pulling yourself out of it. Then,
of course, even a year later, it can still feel raw,
just as the day, Yeah, because you're constantly replaying those
feelings over and over again.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
Yes, And I've spoken to a lot of people or
people have written into me saying, you know, it's been
sixty years, like a long time, and I still can't
stop thinking about my accent every time. Really, every time
that I've investigated this with someone, they're not mourning their
ex anymore. They're caught in a story of I'm not
good enough or I'm not going to meet anyone else,
or they're not taking life by the reins and living

(21:11):
life right, and so they think it's about them, but
really at this point they're just a metaphor for something else.

Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
I also think sometimes it's creating this narrative so then
you don't have to.

Speaker 3 (21:21):
Do the work, because it's kind of like that.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
You know, again going back to that where of course
I still love my ex because putting into another relationship
is going to be so much work and so much effort.

Speaker 2 (21:32):
That's a very good point.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
So sometimes the pain ends up being an easier option
than the work that has to be done.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yes, because in the pain. At least you're getting some
you know, you maybe there's some excuses to not put
yourself out there again, to not take risks again, to yeah,
to wallow, and to.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
Not forgive because they think sometimes when you let go
of the pain, you think that means that you're forgiving
that person and that what they've done is okay. And
so you're like, well, no, I have to hold onto
this because even if I'm not telling them, somehow they
need to know that what they did isn't right. And
so if I let go of the pain and I
seem happy, they're going to think that what they did

(22:08):
was absolutely okay. And so I think there's also this
guilt that you feel for letting go of the pain
because but what if that means I'm just giving in
and allowing them to do what they did to me?

Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yes, totally. We could become a stubborn like.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
This, which brings us onto truth too. The mind is
a battlefield. You said, stay in your head and your
relationship is dead. That statement was like, it's like one line,
but I feel like it has so much meaning to it.
And how does someone start to get out of their
head and the stories that they end up telling themselves
over and over again, Like how do you start shifting
the narrative?

Speaker 2 (22:42):
Yeah, well it starts with self awareness, which is okay,
Like some people are very good at just creating a
negative meaning out of everything. We're storytelling machines, and so
we want to become better at looking at circumstances that
might be difficult, whatever that is, and giving it some
sort of meaning that makes it so that life doesn't

(23:03):
feel so brutal, honestly or just or meaningless. So it's
a practice of well, if you really love me, then this,
or if that person you know, oh that person gave
me a dirty look, then blah blah blah. So just
being able to say, oh my god, I'm in my
head right now, what is that all about? Like why?
You know? It probably has to do with a stress

(23:24):
about something else, or you haven't moved your body in
a long time, or you're dehydrated, or something else is
bothering you. That is true emotional intelligence. And my book
is just having that awareness. And so we do need
daily practices of people. I mean, I actually think one
of the biggest psychological and epidemics of today is anxiety
and people and overthinking and it's plaguing our society and

(23:49):
we need to get ahead of it by regulating our
nervous system, working out, spending time with friends and nature
and meditation I think is very important. And even if
that meditation is just quiet ten minutes a day, but
in a relationship, most of the time where people are
having an argument, let's say it's more than just an argument.

(24:09):
Let's say it's like a it's a pretty heated fight.
They're not really fighting with each other. They're fighting with
mom in that moment because that's something they did reminded
their unconscious of mom. Or they're fighting with you know,
their ex right, So we're projecting a lot. Really, what
tends to happens that people no longer fight with each other.

(24:32):
They fight with the story that they have about each other. Oh,
I knew that they did this, and we go we
can really go into such a deep, deep wormhole of despair.
And I think that just knowing that our minds can
be incredibly unruly, they really can become a battlefield, and

(24:55):
that one of the principles of cultivating and maintaining stable
and healthy relationships is bringing mindfulness to a relationship. And
part of that is mindfulness is what predicate's mindfulness is
the understanding that the mind can be a battlefield.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
Yeah, I think you know.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
I remember when I did my yoga te to training
that always say when you're in your mind, that means
you're just not present here. Yeah, And so actually, when
you are anxious, or when you are in your mind constantly,
there's such a lack of presence. So whether you're in
your mind while you're arguing with the person, you're not
even hearing what they're saying, you're just reacting, or whether
you're in your mind instead of being part of a
social situation, you feel like you come away lonely because

(25:39):
you weren't even present, which comes from anxiety. And anxiety
is when you are constantly there's repeated thoughts in your
mind over and over again, and so you lack presence.
And so I completely agree. I think the more present
we are, the more we're noticing things, the more we're
noticing I'm making my partner feel uncomfortable here, not I'm
in my mind right now and I'm thinking about all
the things I need or Oh, this conversation is actually

(25:59):
not going in the direction that it should be. I
need to stop defending myself and comfort the other person.
If really reminded me of so many times where I've
been like, what you said, you're bringing things from your
past into the arguments that you're having in the present.
I remember at the beginning, Jay's so incredible, but he
would always try and help me with things, which is

(26:19):
a very natural thing to do. But in my mind,
I tell this story a lot, I would be like, no,
I can do everything myself.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
Yeah, it's all myself.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
I don't need you.

Speaker 3 (26:27):
You don't need to help me. I can do it
all myself. And he's like.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
Make them feel terrible.

Speaker 3 (26:31):
Probably He's like.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
I know you can, but I want to do it
for you. So I would deprive him the ability to
help me, which is his way of loving me. Yes,
because I had something to prove, not to him, but
to other people that used to be in my life.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
Do you know how many women are doing that to
their male partners right now all the Okay, so I'm
not alone, Yeah, no you're not. No, it's that happens.
That's a dynamic that happens a lot. It's because they
don't they're not recognizing that is love. They're making it
all about them. And you know, oh, I can take
care of myself and that whole story, and so we
have to wake up to those things and be like, oh,

(27:04):
this is this person trying to love.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
Me, just love me, and maybe I can receive that exactly,
and not receiving it is actually cutting him off from
you know, the cycle of love of me receiving it
and accepting it. And it's just kind of like it's
literally like him giving me a gift and me just
throwing it away.

Speaker 3 (27:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
The truth three. Lust is not the same as love.
And this one I think so many people get confused with.
Could you just define the difference between love and lust?
And what are the signs of lust?

Speaker 2 (27:33):
Lust is that thing that we feel in the beginning
when we feel an intense physical attraction to someone and
we feel alive inside and we feel pretty amazing, until
you know, it can easily become not amazing. It can
easily become obsessive. We can easily then become incredibly disregulated.

(27:55):
And so what kind of starts with all these sort
of like beautiful love hormones can actually you turn into
a lot of cortisol and dysregulation and stress. So lust
when they say that, you know, love makes us crazy.
I think it's more lust that makes us crazy. So
lust is that feeling of intense attraction, and we think
that it's love because we can't stop thinking about the person.

(28:19):
But really what love, love is way more than just
a feeling. Love is something that we do. The perfect
example is the example you share it of Jay wanting
to do things for you because he's wanting to love,
and that by you sort of rejecting that because if
your own past and story, you're sort of blocking the
flow of love, right. You know, when there's lust, you

(28:42):
might be like okay, you know fine, you know whatever
that is, you know, and it's not like passion and
attraction has to go away, but certainly in a long
term relationship, it takes mindfulness to keep it alive. And
in the beginning, like I said, it's just lust is
also when we're just projecting our ideal onto you know,
it's like, oh, I met this amazing person, they're just perfect,

(29:04):
Oh my god. And sometimes that happens because we meet
someone they have like a few things on our list
that we want and we go mad over them and
we put them on a pedestal. We can't stop thinking
about them and they're a stranger. And love is really
something that happens after that settles where we want to
build a life with someone where someone's whole being and

(29:26):
their needs are very important. There is important to us
as our own.

Speaker 1 (29:30):
You mistake instability and the unknown with excitement, yes, and
in love it's kind of like you feel this sudden feel,
you feel this underlying feeling of stability, yes, and safety yes.
And I think sometimes lack of safety can feel like
excitement and lack of the unknown and this like what

(29:50):
if and you know, you get you get into this
well wind of the what if, and the what if
feels really exhilarating and sometimes then when you're used to
feeling lost. So I have a friend who I talked
to her about this pretty much on a weekly basis.

Speaker 3 (30:04):
She's really wanting.

Speaker 1 (30:05):
To find a partner, but she keeps saying, I just
don't feel the way that I've felt in my twenties
when I meet people in my thirties, Like it just
isn't that feeling that excitement.

Speaker 3 (30:14):
I don't feel that anymore.

Speaker 1 (30:16):
And I'm like, what you felt then, was you becoming
obsessed with people without you even know you'd have one
conversation and you'd be obsessed. So you are looking and
craving for this obsession versus this stability and this feeling
of safety. And I've fund a lot of my friends
in there. I wonder what you think about it. Where,
especially when we were younger, we would be you'd go
on one day and you start thinking about your wedding.

Speaker 3 (30:36):
Yeah, why do we do that? Where does that even
come from?

Speaker 2 (30:40):
Because women just because a lot of women want to
get married and they want the love and the partnership.
You know. One thing about I'm curious, like with you
since you brought your friend to this conversation, is she's
someone who values uncertainty at a high level.

Speaker 1 (30:53):
I think she's used to men who have been uncertain
in her life.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
But what about outside of men this something? Does she
seek out adventure? Is she adventurous? Does she get bored easily?

Speaker 1 (31:05):
I wouldn't say she seeks out adventure. The places she's
the most adventurous are all the men that are the
opposite of.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
Her, the opposite of her. Yeah, well, so she actually
has much more of a controlled life.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
Yes, she definitely has a very regular life.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
Yes, right, So, well that very regular life that's filled
with certainty can also get quite boring. So what she's
doing is that she's trying to meet her need because
we all have the need for novelty and adventure and
the unknown. So she's trying to meet her need for
the unknown because her life is very predictable through men

(31:40):
and relationships, as opposed to learning how to meet that need.
If she actually maybe took some risks in life and
maybe was a little more leaning towards uncertainty and not
just certainty, she may not need to find that.

Speaker 3 (31:55):
Take as many risks.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Some of those risks have
ended her up in for twenty four hours.

Speaker 3 (32:01):
She knows what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
You know, when I was talking about the love in
your twenties versus thirties, I was reading about this, and
I don't know whether you know more about it, but
it says how our hormones when we were in our
teenag years and when we're in our young years, they're
completely different, and because they are kind of coming into ourselves, Yeah,
there's so much more erratic, and so that obsessiveness actually
comes a lot easier when you are in your teenage

(32:24):
years and when you're getting the first feelings of liking someone.
And so when you've been through a few relationships or
you felt that feeling quite a few times between your
twenties and your thirties, once you get to your thirties
or your forties, actually you don't have that intense hormonal
attraction anymore.

Speaker 2 (32:43):
Yeah, well I know people who do have that, yeah,
in their thirties and forties. But yes, that does track.
I mean, look, it's also part of like immaturity, right,
we're at that age, and yeah, I mean that definitely
makes sense. There is some biological stuff to that. I mean,
the presence of means that women create more oxytocin, and

(33:03):
so that's more of the bonding hormone.

Speaker 1 (33:05):
So there's yeah, yeah, it makes sense. Do you believe
that there is such thing as the One?

Speaker 2 (33:11):
No?

Speaker 3 (33:11):
No, okay, Please tell me more.

Speaker 2 (33:14):
What do people think of when they think of the One?
They think of this person who's going to come into
their life make all their problems disappear, and that they
are this is unconscious. They think that this person is
going to be more evolved than them and is almost
going to be close to almost like a parental figure

(33:36):
in that way that they're going to come and fill
all our voids and that when we find our soulmate,
everything is fine, and that's not true. I mean, and
there's also many the ones. There's the one that you
were with when you were sixteen, there's the one that
some people got married to and then later divorced, and
you know, it's also it says like if you're with

(33:57):
the one, then you are guaranteed the relationship you want,
and that is not true. And that probably is like
the biggest problem with that concept that erodes are understanding
of what love is. And so with the person who
is right for you, you still have to show up

(34:20):
and your problems are still going to be there, and
you still have to participate in there and nurture the relationship.
I know. I think if we thought there's just one
person for us, that's a very depressing perspective because then
waiting and waiting, they or they tell themselves, the hypnotize

(34:40):
themselves into believing that the person who they lost is
the one and so there's no one else for them
and that's tragic.

Speaker 1 (34:47):
And then trying to mimic those feelings in someone else
and thinking that's what I have to feel in the
next relationship. Yes, I think that's something that people have
struggled with that I've spoken to too, and I don't
feel the same as I did when I was in
that relationship. But each person is so different so it
doesn't have to be a replication of that. You can
have a different type of relationship and it can still
be considered love.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
Yes, absolutely, and ultimately we choose so the one will
be yeah, oh yeah, And.

Speaker 3 (35:13):
How do you choose that?

Speaker 1 (35:14):
Like, what if someone's trying to attract a partner right
now in their life.

Speaker 3 (35:18):
You're saying you choose that? What is that process?

Speaker 2 (35:21):
It's emotions, but it's also a process of discernment. It's
very important to know what it is that you want
in a relationship and what it is that you need. Specifically,
if you're someone who doesn't have the best track record,
or you've been single a long time and you really
want to meet someone, know what you want and what
you need, but don't have a whole list of what

(35:42):
this person looks like, or you know they know how
to work or screwdriver or whatever it is. You have
to like, we have to be very very clear about
what's tolerable and what's intolerable right, and then have a
lot of flexibility and open mindedness about the rest. But
do get very clear about what your non negotiables are
and what your deal breakers are.

Speaker 1 (36:03):
What do you consider Do you think everyone's deal breakers
are going to be different?

Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yes, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (36:08):
It's so interesting to him because I feel like there's
so many people, especially online, that are like, these should
be the non negotiables, and you know, you have your lists,
and I think people are so swayed by other people's
opinions when actually if they think they're like maybe I
actually I am okay with this, and maybe this isn't how
I see it. Like I know, when I started dating Jay,
he was like, the one thing I'm just going to

(36:29):
tell you now, these are the things that I know
I won't be able to do. And he told me
all that Who's like, I will not get in the kitchen.
It's not because I think you should be in the kitchen,
but I really don't enjoy it, and I will wash up,
but I will not cook.

Speaker 3 (36:41):
And I was actually so fine with it.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
Then some of the other women in my life are like,
but what about if you want him to cook for you? Like,
what about if you, But don't you think that it's
unfair that he doesn't want to cook in the kitchen.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
And that's all their belief system and all their conditioning,
and you've got to turn down the volume of that
noise and just decide what's right for you.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
So come home, and I'd be like, so, Jo, but
what about if I got sick? Would you cook for me?
Then he goes, no, I would get someone to cook
for you, and I'd make sure they have the best
meals for you.

Speaker 3 (37:09):
Yes, but what if I really wanted you to make
my suit for me?

Speaker 1 (37:12):
But I've just said, like, that's not something I feel
comfortable doing. Yeah, But and I was like, I'm so
okay with it. But it was so interesting because I
started seeing the shift of my beliefs or what I
was okay with all my non negotiables because other people
thought that should have.

Speaker 3 (37:27):
Been a non negotiable.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (37:28):
So it's also ending how much that can shift based
on how much you take in other people's values.

Speaker 2 (37:33):
That's a very very excellent point. I would say that
maybe universally, if you want, there's certain principles that are
really important for long term partnership, Like I don't know
saying values similar values kindness, you know, kindness, respect, trust,
those things. But beyond that, it's very personal.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, it definitely is. I would love to switch gears
to breakups. You talk about healing from past relationships. What
do you find the common mistakes people make when they're
trying to heal from previous relationships before they get into
new ones.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
A big one is not taking the time to self
reflect on what happened, understanding. You know, some people they
really need to understand where the other person was wrong.
You have to also understand where maybe you've contributed to
the demise of the relationship. So it's really and I'm
not saying you need to do this for years and
years and years, but you do need to take some
time to just self reflect. I would say for a

(38:29):
lot of women, a big mistake is that they grieve
too long. I forgot what the stat was, but something
like the average of like it takes women like after
a marriage seven years or something insane to get into
a new relationship. So I would really love for those
women to not deny themselves that privilege of moving on

(38:51):
and opening up their hearts again. But I would say
not self reflecting is a big one.

Speaker 3 (38:55):
And do you work with both men and women?

Speaker 1 (38:57):
I do have mean, you know, just a big difference
in the ability to move on that's different between between
men and women.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
Yeah, men tend to move on get into relationships much quickly,
much more quickly than women. Part of that is because
women tend to be more comfortable with really feeling their
feelings and maybe sometimes even being in their feelings too long,
whereas men typically have an easier time suppressing their feelings

(39:26):
and then they start to feel it later. Another theory
that I think is really interesting that why men tend
to can easily jump into a relationship after a hard
breakup is a lot of men value their freedom above
anything else, and a lot of men will value freedom
more than women value freedom, and so when a relationship ends,

(39:49):
it's almost like even though they can be sad, and
of course I'm not talking about every man out there,
every guy out there, but they're able to really embrace
their freedom more whereas women are like, I don't want it,
I don't want it, like I just want to be
with this person, and so they feel it's almost like
they are there's a part of them that feels more

(40:10):
comfortable with that breakup, and so then they're able to
get almost get over it. But of course men are
humans too, right, We're all humans, and everybody wants closeness,
and so they're just able to just kind of go
there again, do.

Speaker 1 (40:23):
You think there is a specific protocol that people should
do when they break up with someone, so like no contact?
Do you think no contact is necessary as a clean
break from the person when you break up with them
or can people be friends with eggs?

Speaker 2 (40:37):
I think everything is nuanced and contextual. So you can't
go no contact if you have a family, if you
have children, So there's that. What I have found is
that a period of no contact is very, very very helpful.
But if you had a marriage and a long term relationship,
it's really hard to just switch that off. And some breakups,

(41:00):
some breakups happen over a span of several months, but
I will say it does more times than not really help.

Speaker 3 (41:10):
Yeah, people struggle with that. I know it can bounce back. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
Do you think the idea that love is enough can
hold together a relationship or can you love someone and
realize that actually they're not the.

Speaker 3 (41:23):
Right person for you? Can both be true?

Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yes, both can be true. Relationships actually rarely end because
of lack of love. They more commonly end because people
don't feel seen, they feel misunderstood, they feel so helpless.
They go into a state of learned helplessness where they
don't see a way out of the pain that they're
in with this other person. It's not always the falling

(41:50):
out of love, and sometimes it's sometimes the love is
so strong, but the attraction is gone, so you don't
feel motivated to meet that person's needs because they don't
they You just don't feel that passionate love towards them anymore.

Speaker 3 (42:07):
I wanted to move one to truthful. You have to
love yourself.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
Yes, you said what you accept in a tract is
a reflection of what you deep down believe you deserve.
Why do you think people with that in mind, why
do people accept abuse in relationships over and over again?
Where does that stem from?

Speaker 2 (42:24):
Well, I'm going to answer that question, yes, but I
want to just add something, which is that I don't
believe that. I do say in the book that there's
two camps of thought you have to complete. One is
you have to completely love yourself and feel whole in
order to be in a relationship. The other one is no, no, no,
you don't have to love yourself. You learn to love
yourself through relationships. And I don't believe it's so binary.
I believe it's somewhere in the middle. You don't have

(42:45):
to completely love everything about yourself and be totally healed
to be in a relationship. But getting to abusive relationships,
I've never known a person who's been in a very
unhealthy relationship and or an abusive relationship who also did
not strug to accept who they are and love to
love themselves. So why do people stay in abusive relationships?

(43:07):
That was the question, right, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
I just see so many successful, ambitious women who see
what they've got it all together and they end up
in severely physically or emotionally abusive relationships.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
Shocking, right. So it's interesting how we can have so
much confidence in one area of our life and then
another area of life we just don't. There's a few reasons.
One is that's how they saw their parents do it.
Another one is that they just don't see themselves as
worthy in that way. They don't see themselves as deserving

(43:41):
of love. Maybe they've never seen it. Sometimes people stay
in these relationships because they don't know the way out.
Maybe they're afraid that there's going to be some sort
of repercussion or consequence. Yeah, But most times it means
something needs to be looked at within about why you

(44:04):
tolerate that. And sometimes you see there's a lot in
women they just are so empathetic. And what it is
is that So we can't just reduce it to we
don't love yourself. But what we can say is there
are some people who are so adept at seeing the
good in others, yes, that they are able to ignore

(44:29):
what's really right in front of them.

Speaker 3 (44:32):
But he's got such a good heart, and I know
that do better. Yeah, I know he wants to be
a better.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
Person and less exactly, just constantly see that, and it's
and it trumps the feeling that it's making you feel
about yourself exactly. You can just lose yourself in this
idea that you can. I think it goes back to
the feeling of wanting to better someone else and you
thinking that you can fix that person, yes, And so

(44:58):
you think I can fix this person and I know
that they are worth fixing, yes, And so it's I
know that this is just because that they're having a
bad time in life right now, and you kind of
compartmentalize it too, that they're a good human and I
can help them and these things are just that stemming
from their deep rooted issues versus this.

Speaker 3 (45:18):
Is actually abuse.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
Yes, yeah, it's have How have you seen people come
out of that?

Speaker 3 (45:24):
In the work that you do.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
It's difficult. It's helping the person recognize that that they
can learn to differentiate between that you can have compassion
for this person and you can empathize with this person,
and you can also do that from a distance, right,

(45:46):
And that's sort of the recovery work and codependency and
alcoholism and all of that is learning how to detach
with love and learning how to say, Okay, this is
not going to work, but it's It's also there's more
to it because in order to be constantly focusing on
the other, there is inherently a neglect of the self.

(46:10):
So it's also helping the person return to their life
and theirselfs themselves and what they want to build in life.
And depending on the situation it could be it can
be difficult.

Speaker 1 (46:23):
And for a woman who wants to stop rebuilding her
relationship with herself, how do you do you have any
specific practices or ways that whether it's journaling, whatever, is
any cues that you can give to someone on how
they can stop changing that perception of what they deserve.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
One of the hardest questions to answer for everyone is
what do I want? Yeah, but you need to reflect
on that and maybe what you to make the question
easier to answer is what would make me feel more fulfilled?
What would make me feel more connected, what would make

(47:00):
my life a little bit more fun? And you start
to think about that, and by doing that you start
to learn how to meet your own needs. Right, and
then of course journaling. And for some people this is
not for everyone. Some people are like, this doesn't work,
and other people they say, this is amazing, looking in
the mirror and saying I love you. Some people are like,
I absolutely cannot do that.

Speaker 3 (47:21):
Yeah, this is so craze.

Speaker 2 (47:23):
This is so cringe. But some people really get into
it and building community, building building community. I think that,
you know, bringing back this concept of freedom and women
who stay in abusive relationships, I think it really behooves
women to value freedom more than they typically do and
to value purpose more than they typically do. Right, it

(47:46):
kind of develops if you will sort of like their
healthy masculine side. I don't even know if we would
call that the masculine side anymore anyway, but you know, yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:55):
Yeah, okay, there's a great tip.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
So looking in the mirror, finding community and asking yourself
questions about yourself, and yeah, to know yourself.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
And starting a new project like what a passion project
or hardly anything, it's so incredibly important. And stay very
close to your friends. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
Two five is you must speak up and tell the truth.
What are some questions that if you're already in a relationship.
What are some of the questions that we should be
asking our partners regularly?

Speaker 2 (48:24):
How can I be an amazing partner to you this week?
What do you need that you're not getting? There's something
that I would really love for you to do for me.
Can I tell you what that is?

Speaker 3 (48:34):
There's are great questions.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
Yeah, Funny Jay asks me them like every week. I'm like,
I need to do that more. I spoke to a
friend recently. I have some questions that actually have come
also from I put up a poll online. Ohat, I
asked questions. But I spoke to your friend recently. He
was saying that they've been married for years. Both used
to their usual routines with their kids, but realized that

(48:56):
they had lost their connection. What can a couple that
want to rekindle their loved.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
Part of what I hear in that question is it's
not just rekindling love, is rekindling passion, because when we
get stuck in the rut of routine, we can lose that.
They need to do something very fun together, maybe every
week that has just a little twinge of danger. Now
I don't mean the kind of danger where you are
literally putting yourself in danger, but just something that feels

(49:22):
a little on the edge. Because what's that's going to
do is spike some cortisol and give you some dopamine
and then you guys are gonna be like feel very alive,
and you're going to be doing that together. And that's
that creates chemistry.

Speaker 1 (49:35):
Yeah, I said to me and Jay always trying to
do like activities that we've never done before together.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 1 (49:40):
Every time we don't like, this was so fun doing
this together, and like whether it's going to a random
dance class that we never have an intention of doing
that dance at any other point in life, but it's
just doing that one dance lesson that one time, or
going to a pottery class, so like doing going to
a secret escape room, which I'm horrible at. He's like

(50:00):
really into And it's just so interesting because you see
different aspects of each other and you get to have
a laugh together. Since we always try and get out
of our comfort zone of why we didn't want to
sit here and just watch TV together all the time,
or you know, getting out of your usual routine.

Speaker 2 (50:15):
That's it.

Speaker 3 (50:15):
To see each other in a different light.

Speaker 2 (50:17):
Absolutely, that is the name of the game.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
You also say, when we're committed to being in a
healthy relationship, we do not play games. It's really that simple.
I feel like games are so subtle sometimes, whether it's
I'm going to play this island treatment right now so
he knows how much I'm upset with him without me
telling him, or Okay, I'm going to leave this here
just to annoy her because she's annoyed me. You know,
there's so many subtle ways of playing games with each other. Manipulation, Yeah, manipulation,

(50:44):
And I get I don't even know whether I have
a question in this, but do you think that that
comes from a lack of ability to communicate with each other?
What your needs actually are.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
Yes, And it also comes from just a habit of
punishing your partner.

Speaker 3 (50:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
So one of the things that everyone that I always
encourage people to ask themselves when they're in a relationship
or if they're reflecting on their past relationships that they're single,
is so, what is your preferred method of punishment? Meaning
how do you punish your partner? WHOA when you're upset?
What do you do?

Speaker 3 (51:17):
I'm quiet?

Speaker 2 (51:18):
Yeah, quiet, ye, little quiet, I'm quiet.

Speaker 3 (51:21):
Yeah. And I didn't think of it as a punishment,
but I can see to him that it feels like
a punishment because he's such a communicator.

Speaker 2 (51:27):
Huh.

Speaker 3 (51:27):
But for me, I'm like, I'm quie. Are you okay? Yeah,
I'm fine. Are you sure though, Like, no, I'm fine. Yes.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
But that keeps them clinging, And then there's a part
of you that like it draws him closer, because if
we're upset with someone, so a lot of times we're
upset with someone, what that triggers inside of us is fear.
Fear that maybe we're not good enough, fear that they're
going to leave us. Even if we know they're not
going to leave us, there's some sort of insecurity there,
so we gain our power by doing that thing that

(51:53):
makes them give us a lot of attention.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
Yeah, I guess it's also just this little, this feeling
of Okay, I really want to be loved by I
don't want to ask for it.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
It's kind of that, isn't it. It's like, Okay, I'm
leaving you all these hints. Yes, I want to be
loved and I want you to love on me, but
I don't want to tell you I want it because
you should just know. And that's kind of like a
little girl syndrome where it's just such a.

Speaker 2 (52:13):
Little girls syndrome because that's what girls do all the time.
Let me test them, right, let me test them.

Speaker 3 (52:18):
Yeah, that cycle needs to stop.

Speaker 2 (52:20):
Follow me, But why are you following you? No?

Speaker 1 (52:24):
I want to be left alone. Five minutes later, why
is he not coming? Stop playing games? People, stop playing games.
You talk about the cool girl and good girl mentality.
I absolutely love that because I think society and the
way that we are wired is to be cool girl
or good girl.

Speaker 3 (52:43):
Yeah, can you please explain the two?

Speaker 2 (52:46):
Yeah, so the cool girl is sort of like nothing
bothers her and she can go out with the guys
and drink a bunch of beers and be like one
of the dudes, if you know, if she dates men
or and then but in the bedroom, she's like, you know,
like a porn star, you know, the cool girl. Nothing
bothers her. Oh, it's all cool, Like she just goes
with the flow. She doesn't wrestle any feathers. She's just

(53:10):
like she does not create any problems because she doesn't
do anything because she's cool, or like yeah, like I
don't care or yeah, you know, like it's just that
vibeing you try to be easygoing or you just try
to be like yeah, like I don't care. Yeah, just
just sort of like I don't care vibe that can

(53:32):
attract people, especially immature people, right, just sort of like oh,
like this is cool. She's cool, Like she doesn't tell
me what she needs, there's no problems, I don't have
to deal with anything. Everything with her can be easy, right.

Speaker 1 (53:46):
The desire to be the girl that's so easy that
they can just hang out with whenever they want.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
Yeah, So what happens is that when you're playing the
cool girl, you could be totally mistreated and be like no, no,
it's cool, and that's great for someone who who loves
to treat people poorly. And then the good girl is different.
The good girl is do everything right by the books,
and you don't assert yourself. You're just you are agreeable.

(54:11):
And the thing is, agreeableness is a good trait. It's
like there, but it's but we also have to have
a limit because we have to bring a sense of
self to a relationship. And if we're always being the
good girl, then again like we're not, we feel lost
inside ourselves, we feel lost inside our skin. We can
be treated poorly, we don't get what we want. And

(54:33):
so the antidote is not to become the bitch. The
antidote is not to be you know whatever. It's not
to be anyone. It's not to try to be anyone
other than who you are. And so and that that
can be easier said than done. The common thread between
these two archetypes is I'm not going to tell the
truth right to please you, to get you, to please you,

(54:56):
to be enough to get you wrapped around my finger,
to not leave me whatever it is. I am going
to withhold my truth and I'm not going to have needs.
And that does not work in a relationship.

Speaker 1 (55:08):
No, because and I Almoso think, coming back to what
you said, one of the other truths were of you
need to love yourself. It's like, if you're agreeable, you
lose yourself in other people's decisions and other people's needs
and other people's wants, so you actually lose complete sight
of who you are. And then if you don't know
who you are, you can't teach someone else to treat
you how you want to be treated exactly.

Speaker 2 (55:30):
And to be clear, it's not that to be agreeable
is bad. No, it's not being nice, not bad. It's
really good. But it's about are you to what degree
are you so agreeable that that you become a doormat
in life?

Speaker 3 (55:46):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (55:46):
I can think I can. I can relate to both
of them in different ways. So I definitely thought when
me and Ja got married, I would be like, I
don't really have any dreams or aspirations. I'll do whatever
you're doing. And he had no desire for me to
be that way. In my mind, I thought that is
what a good wife should be, like. You know, he's
got ambitions, he's got his dreams. I should the wah

(56:09):
right now, I don't have anything. I don't I don't
think I want to do anything, so I should just
follow in his footsteps. And what he wants is what
I what I should do, not he's asking me to,
but what I think I should be doing. And it
was so interesting because the more I ended up following
in his footsteps, the more miserable I got. And he
kept noticing. He was like, you need I want you
to do what you love doing, like you do what

(56:29):
you feel happy doing. You being happy will make me happy,
not you doing what I do that doesn't make me happy.
And then I noticed that in little ways, like when
we were trying to figure out what to eat, I
would be like, no, you decide, not because I knew
I wanted, but in my mind I would think, oh
if I if I don't say, if I say something
that he doesn't want, then he'll end up just choosing

(56:51):
it because of me, and then he won't be happy
and what he wants.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
So that two of it. But it's cute that two
of you are just trying to make each other happy, and.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
I think, yes, but I think it's also it's also
this lack of wanting to assert what you want, and
sometimes it can come out in the smallest ways and
sometimes in the bigger ways where and the other person
is that what do you want? Like I always think
of that notebook thing is like what do you want?

Speaker 3 (57:11):
It's like, yeah, what do you you?

Speaker 1 (57:13):
Even if you decide to compromise because of love, there's
a difference between doing the compromising because of love and
doing it because you're choosing to like oh if I
say this, and maybe it's not the right thing, and therefore.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
And yes, and we're disappointing that person and it's all
of that. Yeah, it's a huge awareness.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
Yeah, it really is.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
I wanted to head onto tooth six. Okay, you need
to be your best self even after the honeymoon, and say,
the fact is, even if you end up with the
partner you've always dreamed of, you're going to have to
face your demons. You're going to have to face yourself
all the time. That is so, you know, I think
when you end up getting married, a lot of people think, Okay,

(57:55):
there we finally each other is done. Now now we
can just you know, sail through. But it's almost like
that's just the beginning.

Speaker 3 (58:01):
Yes, exactly, And.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
Working on yourself is working on your relationship. Do you
have any recommendations of how each person, in their own
way to be back to partners, can work on themselves,
like what weekly, monthly things should they be doing, or
reflections that they should be having about how they are as.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
Pon managing your stress, Yes, and noticing how your stress
is coming out in the relationship, if it means that
you withdraw, if it means that you get super irritable.
I mean, we all have stress, but we're talking about
the chronic stress going in and out. And you know,
because we can't show up to a relationship consistently moody

(58:45):
and irritable and in a bad mood and then expect
just to be loved. We can have our bad days
and that should be totally okay. Yeah, but that consistent
bringing it to the relationship. So I think it's really
about really monitoring one's behavior and stress and being mindful
of the energy that they are consistently bringing to the relationship.

Speaker 3 (59:08):
Yes, that's so true.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
You always think, oh, but I'm just having a bad day.
But as soon as you're having a bad day, you're
then transferring that energy for the other person to also
have a bad day. So it's how do I manage
my stress and my emotions to not constantly be bringing
that to energetically pull both of us down. Yes there
is truth seven, Truth eight, and truth nine, but I
think we're already heading over an hour. But I wanted
to tell you guys what they are so you can

(59:30):
read them. Truth seven is you cannot convince someone to
love you, Tooth eight is no one is coming to
save you. And truth nine is you must make peace
with your parent. And I feel like it's good that
we don't go into them because it gives them more
to read. Yes, but I want to go onto just
a few questions that I was asked by some of
the audience. What is the right time frame to move
in together?

Speaker 2 (59:51):
This is such an interesting question because there's a part
of me that sees the value in a more tradition
and all old fashioned framework, which is, you know, maybe
you shouldn't move in until you actually know if you're
going to get married or not. But I know that
that's very old fashioned. I'll never forget when I moved

(01:00:12):
in with my ex husband, and obviously that relationship didn't last,
but I didn't give up my own apartment. Even though
I moved in. I thought, you know what, I haven't
known him I've only known him a year or no.
I at that point, I only knew him like seven months,
and we moved in quickly, and I thought, you know what,
I'm not giving up my lease in New York. I'm not.

(01:00:33):
We were in New York, but I'm like, I'm not
giving up my lease. And I think I think that
was very smart. That was very good advice my mother
gave me, because you know, living together is a whole
different ballgame, and so there's no one way to do
a relationship. But I do tend to err on the
side of like, can you just go a little bit
slow and really get to know this person, because if

(01:00:58):
it doesn't work out and you live together, oh, it
just complicates the breakup.

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
I also think there's the flip side, which is when
if I don't live with him, then I won't know it.
Like I think I need to live with him before
we get married, so then I know whether it's gonna I.

Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
See that too. Yeah, and I see that as well.
For sure.

Speaker 3 (01:01:14):
It's definitely to know.

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
It's very it is a matter of chords. Just know
again the messages. Just know when you live with someone
and it doesn't work out, and this isn't to scare people,
But you know, do you really want to immessure your
life with someone who maybe you just haven't even known
a year?

Speaker 3 (01:01:35):
Yes, so let's give you a year as a ball.

Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
Yeah, I still think about and feel like I love
someone I was with for ten years.

Speaker 3 (01:01:42):
How do I let him go?

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
I would just say, it's really not about that person anymore.
You're replaying a story in your head and you're living
in the past, which makes me think that you're not
living in the present. We need to start living in
the present moment and start building a life for yourself
that feels compelling to you, that you have a compelling

(01:02:04):
reason to get out of bed to help others, whatever
that is. Without fail, every person that I've ever spoken
to or worked with who felt very much stuck in
the past of a relationship that ended a long time ago,
it's because they were procrastinating, if you will, resisting building

(01:02:28):
their life in the present moment.

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
I think sometimes it's also this feeling of this person
changed me, or this person made me the happiest, Like
that was the happiest I was in that era, and
so and or this feeling of this person fixed me,
or this person brought joy into my life and I
haven't felt that since, And so I guess a part
of it is also how do you then create that

(01:02:51):
again for yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
It's your relationship with yourself, it really, truly is. It
just means that something needs to be explored and your
relationship with you and your life. And absolutely, but a
lot of times we were deluded. A lot of times.
It's not a good really, it wasn't a great relationship.
But we're replaying stuff and we're stuck in time, and

(01:03:14):
you know, you want to slowly untether yourself and sometimes
you know, a spouse dies and that's very hard, and
it's a process to open yourself up to love again.

Speaker 1 (01:03:24):
I also think the more that you replace stuff in
your mind, it's almost like it gets a little bit
changed each time based on the narrative you want to
create in your mind. So the story can, like let's
say you've been thinking about it for ten years, the
story slowly, slowly, slowly shifts towards to be favorable, towards
what you want to happen or what you want to believe.
So I know, like, even if you've been in a

(01:03:45):
toxic relationship, you remember like the really beautiful times, and slowly,
if you keep thinking of the beautiful times, you completely
forget the times that he called you x racy, and
you completely forgot about the time where he like, you know,
locked you out of the house or whatever it was.

Speaker 3 (01:04:00):
You're like, oh, but that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
One time he like hugged me and it just felt
like the whole world fell away, and it's like yeah,
but the next day he's putting a bit yes, yes,
you know, like yes, but.

Speaker 3 (01:04:10):
You really do.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
And so I think the problem is the more you
repeat thoughts in your mind or like stories or visuals
of what that relationship was like, the further away you
get from it, the more distorted it has the ability
to be.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
Yes, that's very true, right, Yes, all memory we distort
and delete all sorts of memories.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
Yeah, absolutely, So stop rebuilding whoever this is, Stop rebuilding
your own love for yourself and creating new memories that
make you feel just as happy. How can I know
if I'm being empathetic or justifying something I shouldn't.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
It's all boils down to defining and being able to
define the tolerable versus the intolerable, and that is very
important going into a relationship, especially if you feel like
you have not been treated well on the past. So
knowing what's tolerable the intolerable and then also investigating your stories.

(01:05:03):
Are you're saying like this? You know? Is this? A
lot of times it'll be like, well, I don't like
the way that I'm being treated, but we don't think about, oh,
how we're actually treating the other person too. But if
you have a history of tolerating less than you deserve
and you don't realize if you're being empathetic one, you
can ask someone who you really trust, who has an
objective point of view, and then to really have someone

(01:05:25):
help you get clear about what is intolerable in a relationship. Yeah,
a lot of people don't know that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):
Yeah, know what your boundaries are?

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
Yeah, you have to know what your boundaries are.

Speaker 3 (01:05:36):
Absolutely, thank you so much for this.

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
I probably could ask you a thousand more questions, but
I won't take up too much of your time. Thank
you again, and everybody please go out and get it
begins with you. It is such a beautiful book, and
I guarantee you will come away from it learning so
much more about yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:05:53):
Did thank you, Thank you. It's really beautiful. And I
thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
I appreciate you too, Thank you

All Episodes

Jillian Turecki: 9 Truths About Love That Hurt — and Heal

Episode Transcript

Host

Radhi Devlukia

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Jillian Turecki: 9 Truths About Love That Hurt — and Heal