Terri Cole: Stop Trying to Fix Everyone. Signs You’re a High-Functioning Codependent and How to Break the Cycle

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
My question is, where is the boundary between Oh, I'm
helping somebody because I genuinely have love and care for them,
to it being something that becomes from what I'm hearing
from you, a selfish notion of helping well. Terry Cole
is a psychotherapist and relationship expert. She's the author of
Too Much, a book that focuses on breaking the cycle

(00:20):
of high functioning codependency.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
High functioning codependency is you being overly invested in the
outcomes of the people in your life to the detriment
of your own internal peace.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
So I'm the only person that can fix them. I'm
the only person that's going to be able to give
them this advice and the only person that's going to
be able to figure out what they need. And then
I was like, did they even ask for that?

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Yes? But here's the thing, right, what is real level?
In our world? We talk about holding space for people,
I don't think most people even know what that means.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
I'm Radi w Kiah and on my podcast A Really
Good Cry, we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing
a space for raw, unfiltered conversations that celebrate vulnerability and
allow you to tune in to learn, connect and find
comfort together. Thank you so much for being here. I
am honestly so honored to have you here. I when

(01:11):
I first heard about you, I got your book and
I honestly read it NonStop like my team, the whole
pretty much the whole day I was sat there. You
can see my book. I've got notes, I've got a
highlighted bits in there, so many questions that came from it.
So thank you for putting out this message because I
think it's very much needed. But also I felt a
little bit targeted, to be honest, because I felt like

(01:31):
you'd written the book.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
Just for me.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
So yeah, thank you for being on this podcast. I
appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
I want to start off because this story in your book,
I feel demonstrates a lot of who you are as
a person, but also where all of this came from.
So you took home a stranger from a train station
back to your house to stay the night.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Sound there and not in a fun way. You know
people like you took home a stranger. It could sound
like really anxie. So you're like, all dark, No, that's
not what happened.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
Tell me how that happened, and please go on and
tell the story because it's magnificent.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yeah, he used to, for no reason at all, go
to My therapist was on Long Island, even though I
was living in Manhattan, so right there, people are like,
that makes no sense. But she was my therapist in college.
I just wanted to stay with the same person. So
I would take a train every week out and walk
a mile to her house and then walk a mile
back and then take a ten thirty pm train. So
I'm on the train done with therapy, and I see
this kid in my mind now I'm about twenty two,

(02:27):
when he's about nineteen, and I'm like, immediately my helper
PingER goes off. He's got like a metal T shirt on,
He's holding a little blanket. I was like, where the
hell is this kid going at ten thirty at night
in this desolate station. So we get on and I
started talking to him on the train and I'm like, oh,
where are you going? He was like, oh, I was
supposed to, you know, I got hired to drive a
car back to Indiana and they just canceled it. So

(02:48):
I go, where are you going? He's like, I guess
I'm just going to sleep in the station. I was like,
what station and he said Penn Station. Now this was
the late eighties, and I was like, you can't sleep
in Penn Station, dude, You're gonna get mogged. Literally, it's
so dangerous. And he's like, well, I don't know anyone
in New York. I was like, yeah, you do? You
know me? And he was like. I was like, it's settled,
you're coming home to my house, Billy. So I was

(03:10):
living in a studio apartment nine one hundred and fourth
Street between West End Riverside, and I didn't even call
my roommate. I literally just brought this kid to my
house and he slept in our studio apartment with me
and my female roommate, simply because I felt overly responsible
for what would happen to him if I didn't save him. Now,

(03:32):
you know, people listening watching, they may be like, oh,
that's crazy, But here's the thing. Everyone has their own Billy.
Everyone has their own Billy stories where you somehow felt
overly responsible and not just for a stranger, for people
in your life, for your friends, for your family members,
for you, whoever. It is where you literally feel like

(03:53):
it is suddenly your responsibility to make sure that the
right thing happens for that person.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yes, when I was reading through your book, I could
relate to that in so many different parts of my life,
growing up, from when I was younger to my teenagers
to now. In my life, I'm there have been so
many situations where I have felt that way, maybe not
about a stranger, sometimes about a stranger, but many times
about people who've been in my life. So your new book,
too Much, this is the book I'm speaking about, and

(04:19):
in that you talk about high functioning codependency. Now, I
would love if you could just describe to everybody what
is one what is high functioning codependency, but also what's
the difference between codependency and high functioning codependency.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yes, I'll tell you why I coined the phrase. So,
high functioning codependency is you being overly invested in the
feeling states, the outcomes, the situations, the circumstances that even
the careers of the people in your life to the
detriment of your own internal peace. Because all of us
are lovers and empaths and highly sensitive people, and we

(04:54):
love our people. Of course we're invested in their happiness.
But when you're in HFC, you feel overly responsible. It tips.
There's a tipping point that we hit where we take
it on rather than just feeling compassion or sympathy for
we feel like we have to fix it. So that's
the definition. The why Why did I need that definition?

(05:16):
Because in my therapy practice, I had incredibly capable women
very much like me, very successful business wise, you know,
living their best life. And if I would say to them, Hey,
what you're describing, this is a codependent behavioral pattern you're
describing in your relationship, they would immediately reject the notion

(05:36):
of codependency as if I said a dirty word. And
they're like, hello, I'm making all the money, I'm making
all the moves, everything that happens is because I'm doing it.
Everyone comes to me. I'm the rock in my family,
I'm the rock in my friends group. Who am I?
I'm not dependent on shit? Everyone's dependent on me, lady.
And I've realized my clients don't know what codependency is

(05:57):
because they are they still have the myth of codependency
being melody baby codependent. No more, you have to be
enabling an alcoholic to be a codependent. I can't tell
you how many clients that I'm not involved with an addict,
I'm like, okay, So they don't see themselves in the problem, which,
of course, for me as a therapist was a problem

(06:18):
because how can I help you if you don't identify
And as soon as I added high functioning, all of
my clients not to quote Taylor, but were like me,
I'm the problem. It's made with no shame though they
were like, you're right, I am doing all the things
for all the people, or I am overly invested in
this and I'm exhausted. But part of the irony with

(06:39):
high functioning codependency is that the more capable you are,
the less codependency looks like codependency, but it still is.
So we're still suffering and we're still getting burnt out.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
What are the typical symptoms of someone who is.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
HFC well, feeling over the responsible for other people in
all the ways? Being an auto advice giver, I can't
stop fixing your problem, we can't stop giving you our
grade a advice on everything, being an auto accommodator. So
what does this mean? I tell a story in the
book also where where this phrase came from. I coin

(07:14):
this phrase as well, because it was something I was
doing in my life and this was one of like
five years ago. So trust me, you can get into recovery,
but you're never going to be cured. I was at
a hair salon in Manhattan and I was getting something
on my hair where it's like a mask where I'm
laying in a sink but nothing's happening because I'm just
laying there, and all of a sudden, now the sink
traffic is backing up and each person that comes in

(07:35):
is standing. I'm becoming more and more anxious, Like I
wonder if they think I'm an idiot because I'm using
a sink but I'm not even using it and I
could sit somewhere else, and maybe I should tell somebody.
Literally becoming until I get to a tipping point where
I have to raise my hand have the assistant come over.
I say to her, Hey, I could sit somewhere else.
She's like, no, shit, lady, And we're fine. We do
this every saturdaysterry Like we're fine. And I realized what

(07:59):
is the cost? Sight who cares?

Speaker 1 (08:01):
Right?

Speaker 2 (08:02):
Some people would say, you're just being Niceah, No, because
the thing is if you can't not do it, it's
not you being nice, it's a compulsion, if it hasn't
been a mindful decision, if it's a knee jerk reaction,
which is what mine was in that situation. It wasn't

(08:22):
me being nice, it was me trying to control yes.
And on the foundation of codependency is an overt or
covert bid or attempt to control someone else's outcome.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
And you know, the first thing that comes to mind
is from a young age, whether it's not my spiritual
culture or just generally, there's a notion that service is
one of the highest forms of love. When you are
serving somebody else, it is one of the best things
that you could be doing for somebody. But I think
there's this difference between service with a desire to help

(08:59):
yourself and service with a desire to help the other
person genuinely. But can they not be both? So I
guess my question is where is the boundary between Oh,
I'm helping somebody because I genuinely have love and care
for them, to it being something that becomes from what
I'm hearing from you, a selfish notion of helping.

Speaker 2 (09:18):
Well, I think that you have to the way that
we can tell when people always ask, how do I know?
Is you can start with doing a resentment inventory. M yeah,
because if your motivation is pretty clean, you won't feel
resentment for doing it. Now, you also have to make

(09:39):
sure that you're not stepping over boundaries for other people,
because a lot of times we're like, we'll do things
that people don't even ask us to do, and then
if they're not grateful, we're like mad always We're like
feel underappreciated. We're like, and you didn't throw me a
parade for the thing I did for you that you
didn't ask me to do and maybe didn't even brig

(10:00):
and want me to do. So I think that consent
and instead of making the assumptions right when we're auto
advice giving, we're assuming that's what people need or want
or it's really we just want to fix their problem.
One of the central stories in the book is something
that happened with one of my sisters. And this was

(10:20):
the beginning for me really honestly, I was in my
mid to late twenties. It was when I really started
to understand what high functioning codependency was, and I didn't
know until then. So my sister was in an abusive
relationship living with this guy in the woods without running
water and no electricity. She was an alcoholic and he
was doing crack and abusive, so it's just an hfc's nightmare, right.

(10:43):
I love her to death. Can you imagine and think
about one of your siblings in that situation. You're like,
all hands on deck until we get her out of there,
Like what do we need to do? So I was
failing to get her out of there, and I was
crying to my therapist for god knows probably the fiftieth time,
saying what am I going to do? I've done everything?

(11:03):
And she said, Terry, let me ask you something. What
makes you think you know what your sister needs to
learn in this lifetime and the way she needs to
learn it? And I was like so mad, and I said,
I think we can agree she doesn't need to do
it with a crackhet in the middle of the woods
without reading water. And she said, you know, terror, I

(11:24):
actually can't agree to that because I'm not God. I
can't agree because I'm not God, and neither or you.
But do you know what's happening for you? And I
was like, obviously not, so please clue me in. What
is happening? For me, And she said, you have worked
hard to create a pretty harmonious life because I stopped
drinking when I was twenty one, Like, I've been on

(11:44):
a spiritual and mental health path for many, many years.
And she said, and your sisters dumps your fire of
a life. I mean, I'm paraphrasing, but that's what she
was saying, is messing with your peace. So you want
to fix her so your pain can end.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
I can relate to that so much. You always think that,
Like for me when I was reading it, I definitely
have those tendencies. And I have this notion from a
young age, whether it's friends or relationships, whatever, is like
I'm the only person that they would listen to. I'm
the only person that can fix them. I'm the only
person that's going to be able to give them this advice.
I'm the only person that's going to be able to
figure out what they need. And then I was like,

(12:23):
did they even ask for that? Did they even ask
for my help? They've told me all these things. I'm
observing all these things that they're doing. But my problem is,
like my problem is when I experience that, whether it's friends,
family members' relationships, how do you stop yourself from because
if I'm picking up the phone to them, I can't
not say something. I can't not say I need like

(12:46):
you need to stop this. We need to figure this out.
Let's figure out a solution. How can I create a
way that I can have a relationship with someone who
is going down a terrible path.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
Without controlling them, well without without controlling them without because
that's what that is.

Speaker 1 (13:02):
When it's without feeling like I can help them.

Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yes, but here's the thing. What is real love? Right?
What is real love? In our world? We talk about
holding space for people. I don't think most people even
know what that means. It means I can hang with
you in the foxhole of your dark night of the soul,
and I can love you instead of trying to fix you.

(13:24):
I can ask you how can I best support you?
What would be helpful? What you can say? Though I
have scripts galore? So what you can say when your
friend calls and she's got a disastrous, terrible idea and
you want to talk her out of it so badly? Instead,
when she's telling you, you're going to say, okay, so
tell me, tell me about this idea. What do you

(13:47):
think you should do? Tell me about why now? Why now?
With this? Tell me stop talking more listening, create expansion.
That's holding space is when your friend's like, I don't
know what to do. I'm gonna quit my job, or
I'm gonna bring up with my husband or whatever it is,
and you go and they go, I want to know
what you think. And even though that's like just so

(14:09):
seductive that you want to just tell them all the things,
instead you're going to say, okay, before I say anything,
I want to know what you think you should do.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
But then, would you say that somebody who's going down, like,
let's say you know somebody really well, let's say it's
a family member and you can see them slowly going
down a path that's going to lead to their detriment.
In your book you talk about you say that sometimes
people have to hit rock bottom to really want to change,
to really want to make a difference in their life. So,
as an observer of somebody that you absolutely love, would

(14:42):
you say that you just have to sit back and
do nothing.

Speaker 2 (14:44):
No, I think that. Listen, there's a lot of gray
in between auto advice giving and watching them light themselves
on fire. Right right, there's two extremes here in the middle.
You can say I'm concerned. You can say I love you.
And when I see this situation, I get a pit
in my stomach.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
I don't know exactly why, but I'm really I'm so worried.
They may say mind your own business. If they're really
in denial about what they're doing, they may say I
don't need your two cents, and you can say, okay,
I love you, I'm here, but I have to tell
you it concerns me.

Speaker 1 (15:23):
I loved when you said in the book that what
your therapist, which, by the way, therapist sounds amazing, but
when she said to you that their discomfort is making
you feel uncomfortable. Their pain is bringing you pain. And
so as much as you may want to be helping them,
part of it is you want to help yourself, yes,
because you don't want to be in that discomfort. Watching

(15:44):
them in their discomfort is making you uncomfortable. It may
not even be making them uncomfortable, correct, And I've noticed
that where I'm like, oh no, but I want my
parents to be as comfortable as possible, Or my sister's upset,
how can I make her not be upset? And so
then I'm thinking of every single post thing she tells
me one thing, Oh I've got a cough for a
cull or there's something wrong with my health, and I'm

(16:05):
like looking up every possible thing she can go to.
And for me, I think it started a lot more
became exacerbated when I moved away from home, where I
was like, I have to be helpful in some way.
I need to be useful. I need to make sure
that if I'm not there physically, I will do all
the planning. I will make sure that I am constantly
on alert and there for them whenever they need it.

(16:26):
And so it was definitely, you know, on reflection after
reading your book, I was saying, thinking to myself, I
was like, actually, it's for me. It's for me to
feel like I am useful. It's for me to feel
like I can look after them, and I'm finding a
way any way possible to insert myself into their life
so they know that I am looking after them and
that I'm here totally.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
And there's a way you can still do those things,
but that actually will deepen the intimacy and your relationships.
By asking expensive questions, Oh that's.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
Really yeah, expensive questions. That's it.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
So what was that like? And then what happened? And
then what did he say? Well, how do you feel
about it now? Yeah? Then what like when I'm talking
to my husband in particular, because he's not as much
of a talker as I am, I'm always so clear
to be like, you have the floor yea.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
And that's amazing because I think when people don't talk
as much, you actually find it easier to inset yourself
into their life. Like there are a lot of people
who have their boundaries and they're not that they're going
to say no, I'm good, like I don't need your advice.
But then it's the people who stay quiet or maybe
don't have as much of a voice, and it makes
it easier. And you think that's a sign that you

(17:39):
need to be helping them, but really it's a sign
that you need to be helping them open up to
their own ideas. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
And the thing is, years ago my husband and I
had a situation happened, which really because we've been together
twenty seven years, wow and thanks. And there was a
situation where he had someone who worked for him who
actually embezzled a bunch of money from an I'd say
us and I was so mad. I was like, we're
going to get legal. I'm going to find I'm going

(18:05):
to get her. I was so he's such a he's
really an EmPATH, such a kind, he's an artist, he's
very successful. But I always felt like I needed to protect,
you know, and I was, of course making it worse,
inadvertently making him feel worse. And then finally, like I
was talking about in therapy, and I got it like
I need to not be doing what I'm doing and

(18:27):
that it's not being supportive, it's just helping my ego
feel better. And so I said to him, Babe, how
can I best support you with this situation? And he
just flat out and said, Terror, you can have faith
that I'm going to get it done and I'm going
to do it my way.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
Yes, that's what he needed. He needed you to show
that you believed he could do it himself.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
And then he did and didn't go legal and got
every dime back. And when I said to him, I
was like, babe, why, like you know, I was all
so angry, and he was like, Terror, she listen, I
cannot kick someone when they're down, even when they did
something wrong. She's like, I've known her for almost twenty years, Like,
I know this person died and that's why her books

(19:07):
got all messed up. Like he had this compassionate understanding
and he's like, as long as she makes it right.
And he was a better person than me.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
But and why do you think, like, what's the deep
rooted reasons that people do care too much to this
point where it's actually unhealthy.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
Well, it's when we really think about it, it's how
we're raised and culturally, certainly cultural elements even more so
being Indian, right, but American too. Be a good girl, right,
turn that frown around. Hey, if you don't have anything
nice to say, buddy, don't say anything at all. Nobody
is like encouraging us to assert ourselves. Not in any culture.
When you're a little girl, it's be nice.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
And the.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
Perception of being nice is definitely more important than actually
being nice. It's like about what other people think about you.
And so we come from a deficit when it comes
to self care in a real way. And so we
have all of this outward focus. We're so used to
focusing on other people and what they need and as

(20:10):
you said, being of service. And yet that's not the
same way as having heart connections with people. It's a
way to make ourselves and I used to do this
when I was young in relationships. I would overfunction my
ass off in some relationship because I thought then the
person couldn't ditch me or reject me. I'll make myself

(20:30):
so replaceable that they wouldn't be able to But of
course that's not accurate, and that's not how it goes.
So anyway, back to what we were saying about the qualities.
One is also hyperindependence, where it's hard to let other
people do things for us, or it's hard to ask
people to do things, which of course leads to burnout

(20:52):
and resentment in all of these things. And there is
a phenomenon though, which I think is interesting, and I
think you and Jay have it, and I think my
husband and I have it as well. If you marry
someone who's even more of an HFC than you, which
you did and so did I, because I don't even
need to know more about him than I already do
to know that that is that's a good union because

(21:14):
they're the one person, or at least that person you
allow to do things for you. Is that accurate?

Speaker 1 (21:20):
Yes, definitely, I need to force his way in yeah, same, yeah, yeah,
to force his way in be like, no, I can
do this by myself. He's like, you can do it,
but you don't have to do it by yourself exactly,
and I was like, oh okay. But my reasoning was
because I was like, no, I have to prove I
can do it by myself. But then, you know, I
was thinking about the capacity, you know, when you were
talking about resentment earlier, and I always thought about how

(21:43):
you know, Jay would always say to me, why do
you do all these things for people if you feel
a certain way about it? And I was like, because
I always want to be able to want want people
to know that I am here to do things for them.
And what I realized was it's either if I feel
resentment a good sign for me has always been and
if I do something for someone and I'm expecting it
back in the same way, or if I feel irritated

(22:06):
by afterwards, it's either a sign that I have gone
past my own boundaries and limits and my capacity, or
it's a sign that I need to learn how to
feel myself to be able to expand my capacity. So
it can iv one or the other. But staying in
that zone means that I would keep over exerting myself,
keep overgiving to my detriment. They weren't asking for it,

(22:26):
I did it myself. I would always offer that help.
But then if I'm coming away saying, well, I did this, this,
and this, calculating what they owe me back, that's a
sign that I have gone past my capacity and boundary.
But I do believe that there are ways that you
can replenish yourself if you have this practice of constant
replenishment where you can probably keep expanding the ability to give,
where you then don't feel that resentment. You then don't

(22:48):
feel that calculative how am I going to receive back
from this person? But it takes so much inward work
and so much giving back to yourself to be able
to feel like you can give more and more.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yes, Andy, please. So that's that's one way of looking
at it. Or we can get really clear about what
is our motivation forgiving, right, because mutuality when you think
about what is the opposite of codependency, it's interdependency or
healthy dependency. Right where I can depend on this friend

(23:22):
when I'm when I'm low, I know that they'll step
up for me, or and then they can depend on
me when they're low. They know I'll step up for them,
Like there is something so important. So I don't know
that it's about giving more, right because I'm pretty sure
you're giving plenty because there's no HFC I know who's not.
But again, there could be there could be a spiritual

(23:45):
angle to that, because that is also praised and well
thought of, as you said, like being of service. But
I think the real importance in your close relationships in
particular is the mutuality and all of us being better listeners. Yes,
and not meaning let's let people you know, toxically dump

(24:09):
on us talking about the same bad situation they're in,
never changing. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about
our addiction to auto advice giving and knowing the answer
kind of. And here's the thing with the HFC is
we're good problem solveers and we're smart, and we're very capable,
and you want to be like I have an idea,
I have a thought, I know what you should do,

(24:30):
like the resources exactly, let's do it. We're already like
I'm already texting someone, I'm googling, I'm underlining the book
for you. I can't can't how many people can I
buy this book?

Speaker 1 (24:38):
You're looking for a house, I've sent you about.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
Ten exactly one of those.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
I'm talking.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
It's so true because we're so high functioning. But what
changes for you and for the other person when you
just become open to sharing the attention, like tell me
about your experience. If my husband is an artist and
he also will go into like war zones and draw

(25:04):
on the spot war, I don't know they believe it
or not. That's the thing some people do, who would
want to do it? He does, but I will. He'll
be telling me a story about something like that, and
I will be like, let's get some food, let's sit down,
like I want to hear the whole thing from beginning
to end. No co opting of that story. There's no
need for me to say, oh, yeah, I know what
you mean, because one day when I did blah blah blah,

(25:26):
just you, babe, just you telling me everything about those
six weeks that you were in the couple or wherever
the hell he was, you know what I mean. And
letting him know that what he thinks his experiences, especially
when I'm out with him, are important because it's not
like we're not together. We've been together so long. It's
not like I'm talking to for an hour while I'm

(25:48):
in New York where I'm wherever, and when I'm in
LA while he's in New York. You know, I'm texting like, hey, babe,
good night. I love you to say to Mark, you
know what I mean. But if it's something that's important
that I feel like I'm missing, I want to make
sure he gets like, here's my full attention all the time,
because he's literally still the most interesting person I've ever met.
You know.

Speaker 1 (26:08):
Yeah, it's really so much more about listening and hearing.
It's like, Okay, you may think you know better, but
listen to everything before you even give a comment. It's
a definite thing before you even speak one word.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yes. And what my therapist said to me after my
sister thing after she said you don't know, and then
I was like, okay, well what do I do? She
said boundaries, So it was a beginning give my boundary
life where she was like, you don't have to talk
to her about this guy, and I was like, I don't.
That's it, Yes, fantastic, because I don't want to. It
is torturous. So I call my sister, and she helped
me come up with a script, set a boundary and

(26:40):
just said, hey, I can't talk about this, and I
love you and if and when you ever want to
get out, I'm so your person always.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
How did you feel after that conversation. I've tried that
before and it really like, I find it so difficult
because I'm like, am I having a fake relationship with
this person? Or actually now from what you're saying, and
maybe it is more of a real relationship it is?

Speaker 2 (27:02):
And am I willing to be uncomfortable? Because of course
I felt guilty? Yes, I felt scared. It's an illusion
though that me letting her dump on me was make
making her safer in her situation, because it was not.
She was just as threatened as she was. And what
ended up happening for me was that I had to
learn to let the chips fall where they may when

(27:23):
they're not my chips. And this is part of the problem,
is that we think all the chips are our chips,
but they're not. And less than nine months later, she
called me and she was like, Hi, are you still
my person? And I was like, getting in my car,
she got out, she got sober, she went back to school.
She never was in another abusive relationship. But here's the

(27:44):
most important part. Instead of her littlest sister being the
hero of her story, she is the hero of her
own story. And so her sobriety could stick, her transformation
could stick because she chose it. It's humiliating to I
have your youngest sister quote unquote save you, even if
you're grateful for like a minute, but ultimately you just

(28:05):
feel like a loser. And so I didn't rob her
of that experience. And my therapist said, Terry, listen to me.
I'm not saying you shouldn't save your sister. I'm saying
you can't. It is an impossibility. So what you're doing,
you're just throwing shit at the wall trying to see
what will stick. But the bottom line is that it

(28:27):
is not your situation to fix, and it is presumptuous
even if she's in a rough spot, it's presumptuous for
you to think you know exactly what she should be doing,
because you don't know. And you have to respect her
sovereignty and her right to be self determined even if
it feels like a disaster, which it did, and she.

Speaker 1 (28:46):
May not be ready for it, and that's why she
wasn't until she was until she was Yeah, And so
how do you, you know, distinguish between when you are
let's say you do have somebody in your life like
you did, where you really wanted to help them. And
one thing I'd read in your book which was a
big light bulb for me was the enabling mentality. You

(29:08):
speak about how when you are trying to help someone
and you end up helping them over and over and
over again, or you end up helping them a little
bit too much. What you said, it takes away their
power and it takes away their ability to do it.
And so what is a way that we can create
help in someone's life And where do you start knowing
the boundaries of where to stop helping? Because they say

(29:30):
someone's happy to take the help, because there are some
instances where they'll say no, but there will be instances
where they want to be a bit lazy and they
don't necessarily want to put in the work themselves. So
how do you know when it is time to stop
helping if that person is still taking the help.

Speaker 2 (29:45):
Well, you have to go back to your resentment inventory,
because if you can't do it without feeling resentful, which
eventually it'll become too much. Then you know you're giving
exactly as you said before, past your capacity. And I
think we want to make a distinction between when you're
overgiving to someone. What I really took away from that

(30:07):
situation is my therapist was also saying, hey, when you're
throwing money at this or when you were helping her temporarily,
you're also robbing her of the impetus to change her situation,
like the drive. It's the same way that I always
say with my clients, like, don't have sex with your ex.
When people are like, it's just sex, I'm like, but
it's not because energetically, you were dispersing the energy that

(30:34):
would help you, you know, because energetically we're like, you know,
your energy comes out and it's like these little hooks
that go out and hook things. But when you're dispersing it,
even if you say it's just sex, you're not going
to your person who's looking for you is not going
to find you because your light is dimmed every time
you have sex with your ex. According to me, listen,
that's not factual. That's just me. Yeah, And this is
the same thing that she needed to get to exactly

(30:56):
what you said, a certain bottom where she had had it,
not that I had had it for her, She had
to have had it, and only then would she be
ready to go and have it stayed, because you know
she had left and gone back before, but when she
was ready to go, she left and never.

Speaker 1 (31:14):
Went back stuck. Yeah. I always think about that with
somebody that was that I was friends with when I
was younger, and I would be like, Okay, I'm going
to give you money for this, this, and this because
you need it right now. And so I give them
money and be like, but this, if I do this,
then this means it's your time to change, right Like
you're going to change. I'm going to help you out
this time. And then your commitment back to me is

(31:35):
not the money, it's you committing to me that you're
going to change. And I would always be so disappointed
because I was like, but I've done but I've given
you what you need to stay on your feet. I've
given you what you need to support you. Why can't
you stick to this for yourself? Like, why cant I'm
not asking for me? And my I would always say,
I'm not asking for it for me I'm saying, all

(31:55):
I want in reciprocation is for you to do it for.

Speaker 2 (31:58):
You, right, But here's the thing you were asking for it, right.
So this is what we realize, that you not living
to your greatest potential, or you being in a terrible
relationship or whatever the person is doing, or you you
about to be evicted, right, whatever it is that you
saving them. Another thing that happens is especially with kids,

(32:18):
is that what is the messaging when we save you? Yes,
My message to you is I don't think you can.

Speaker 1 (32:24):
Do it, yes, And you don't even realize you're doing that.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
Yes. And then the kid is like, you're right, I
can't do it. I feel like a loser. And the
parent who is bailing them out over and over is like,
I agree, I think you're a loser too.

Speaker 1 (32:36):
Oh my gosh, I just realized that that exactly what
you're saying is what I felt growing up, which is
why I ended up being somebody now who doesn't want
to take help. And so my parents were so loving
and I had an older sister she was incredible. But
every time I didn't do my coursework, every time I
was late giving something in, every time I mess up

(33:00):
thing up. They would stay up all night to help me.
They would do anything possible to make sure I got
that done, to make sure I got that great, to
make sure whatever it was.

Speaker 2 (33:08):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (33:09):
And at that time I was like, thank god there
helped me. And then I realized I completely felt powerless
over my own life when I moved away from them,
moved to New York, and I suddenly was like, I
have no idea how to do anything by myself. I
don't know how to pick cutlery without getting their opinion
on it. I don't know how to help myself, how

(33:29):
to do anything, how to make decisions for myself, because
I constantly asked them to save me, and they saved me,
and so yeow yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
A family of hfc's and they were infantilizing you, right,
So they were enabling for sure, but there was an infantilization, right,
like keeping you like a dependent child in a way.
And listen, here's the thing, right, this is all love.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
Right, it is all love. It was so much love.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
We know this, And so part of it is those
who feel like, oh, I don't want to say be
mean to my family, or I don't want to and
you're not being mean either.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
They were the most incredible parents and I love them
so much. Yes, but the traits of loving too much,
it does exist because you're.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
Doing too much and when we really love, you know,
there's a beautiful poem about childhood and about rearing children
in the Prophet, that very famous book, and it talks
about parents as the bows and that our children are
the arrows, and that our job is to like let
them go far and let them go. And you see

(34:36):
parents who can't stop parenting. They continue to want to
insert themselves into the center of their child's life. I
had a client who her husband's mother insisted that all
of the five siblings and their family is they had
a big, huge house come home every Christmas for Christmas. Finally,
years of therapy later, she was like, here's the thing.

(34:58):
I don't want our kids. I want to be home
and my house Christmas morning. I'm over revolving our life
around your mother as the matriarch. And it's so selfish
to expect that raising kids. I'm married, a widower, I
have three you know, I'm a bonus mom to three
amazing sons. I have seven grandbabes. My feeling is who

(35:23):
once they were married I was like, your wife is
your first family. Now we're your family of origin. So
whoever had the youngest baby, I was like, for the holidays,
we'll go there, because I don't expect you with a
three month old to travel to New York. And they
live all over the place because they went far and
it's like we continue to have our life. I love them.
I'm not saying that you can't be close to your family,

(35:46):
but there is an appropriateness of like phases of our lives.
When you have adult children and they're having children of
their own, you want them to be able to be
focused on their family. And I love being a Grandparent's
the best right, but I also don't expect them to
revolve their life around mine and this travel schedule or

(36:07):
what we're doing.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
That's such a great way of putting it. Like I
even culturally, I think for us, especially coming from an
Indian background, it is like this culture where the sun
stays the baby for the rest of their life. Your child.
As a woman, you have to stay protected and so
your parents look after you, and then you get in
inverted comments given to your husband to look after you,

(36:29):
and everything is like you are being ushered from one
place to another, and I think for mothers in my culture,
including my own mother, who I love, if you're listening,
but she finds it really difficult to let us be adults.
So everything is like, are you sure you want to
spend money on this? And are you sure you want
to do that? I don't think it's a good idea.

(36:50):
And me and my sister are both getting to a
point where we're saying, Mum, we love you so much.
We appreciate that you have an opinion on this. We
really do, and I understand it may be different to ours,
but it's our life and you have to let us
make that decision. And now that you're saying it, what
it triggers in me every time she gives her opinion
is you think I don't know what's best for you. You
think I can't do it. You think I'm not making

(37:10):
financial decisions that are good for myself. You think I'm
not making a friend decisions. Still telling me that these
friends may not be telling me that I am not
making wise decisions for myself, second guessing my own decisions
for myself when I've tried really hard to create a
system where I believe in what I'm doing is the
right way to do it, but.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
It's also these are your mistakes to make if they
are mistakes quote unquote. You know, it's funny. My mother
had this quote on her refrigerator all of my life.
It's like an irma bombback quote, and it said, I
promise not to take credit for your accomplishments. If you
promise not to blame me for your failures, that's amazing.
And I thought that was great. That didn't mean that
she wasn't auto advice giving me up through my twenties

(37:52):
until I finally said her. I was like, Mom, listen,
if you can't just compassionately listen to what I'm saying
give me advice that I'm not going to take that
I do not want, then I will not call you
when I'm in pain.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
And she was like, oh, everyone else can say. I
was like, Mom, this is how it is. I love
you and I am not looking for input. Can you
hang with me in my indecision right now? She's like,
I guess so. I mean she didn't want to, but
she did it, you know, And I love.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
Her me in my indecision right now, that's all. That's
all we want. It I just want you to listen, yes,
and I just want to know that you're there. But
I don't necessarily want you to try and fix it and.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
Have faith that I can do it. It's very I
have to say, heterosexual relationships. There's a lot with my
therapy practice that I see where and in the beginning
of my relationship with my husband where there's a lot
they love us to death and they want to fix yes,
and they have to learn that. For me, at least,

(38:56):
my husband did to say to me, are we brainstorming?
You want my opinion? Like, what are we doing if
there's a problem? And he always says, and how this
is you? Guys? If you're listening, man, this is the
easiest line. Just say it. How can I best support
you right now? Sometimes I'm like, do you want to
fool around? Do you want to make me a cup
of tea? Do you want to go take a ride
in the truck? Like yeah, I will tell you what

(39:18):
I need if you ask, and if you treat me
like a problem to be solved, Which is kind of
ironic because as an HFC, that's how we treat everyone else,
like people who are just about projects. Right, We're like
I have thoughts about all the things that you can change,
and I will help you change them, but nobody likes that.
It is the same way that you feel about your

(39:40):
mom and how I felt about my mind.

Speaker 1 (39:41):
I was like, gosh, I've just take I've done the
same thing, and I'm telling how off for doing it.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
But it's okay because you're learning and we're growing and
we're changing because we don't want to be HFCs. We
want to be hfc's in recovery. And let's paint a
picture of what that looks like. Can we?

Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yeah? Please? Now I need to know, because what can
I look forward to exactly?

Speaker 2 (40:01):
Well, first of all, it's a much in some respects,
it's a lighter lift. When you really understand what is
your side of the street and your relationships, you will
stop in a panic with all this urgency to feel
like you have to come up with a solution for
what other people need to do. You will realize, hey,

(40:21):
that that is not the most loving thing to do.
And that helped it change for me because I do
see myself really as a loving person and when I
really got that, it was more loving to say, well,
what do you think you should do? But then what
do you think might happen.

Speaker 1 (40:37):
I think that's the only way I'd be able to
do it. You telling me and saying think about whether
it is the most loving thing to do? That is
what would get me out of it.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yes, me too.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
Otherwise, the urgency you spoke about, I feel that. I'm like,
I have to do it right now. I have to
stop everything I'm doing and I need to find the
solution for that person now. And it's stabilitating. It's like
you just you can't think of anything else. You suddenly
feel your heart go into your gut and you're like,
I have to I have to fix this.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
But it's the child within you that feels that way,
and it's the same for me. And so we have
to tend to those little kids and say hey, hey, hey,
everyone's okay. Yeah, it's all going to be okay. This
is just a moment in time. This person is not fragile.
We are not fragile, right, They're going to be okay.
And when you stop the auto advice giving and the

(41:28):
auto yes and all the automatic behaviors, it requires what
you already have. I know you have a meditation practice.
It's like this creates more internal space, and then think
about the people who do you auto advice give the most,
because certain people will trigger for sure these hfc's behaviors
more than other people for whatever reason and so and

(41:51):
each of us has a different story as to why
that is. But when you start thinking about them, then
make a plan and say, the next time Betty, if
she's someone who's very provoking for you, comes to me,
I'm going to say, what do you think you should do?

Speaker 1 (42:06):
Without anger and without yes, without that feeling of resentment
for not being able to help either and not wanting
to help.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
But you're going to have to process those feelings right
recorded the book, one of the whole chapters is about
emotional self regulation and having a much deeper intimate relationship
with our own emotions. Right Because when you're in HFC,
as soon as you feel uncomfortable, you get into action. Yep,
you do something. So we are like here's our feelings,

(42:34):
and we're like, bye, you, I don't like you. So
I'm going to go make a phone call. I'm going
to go to Amazon and buy that book and send
it to them. I'm going to get into fix it mode.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
Grief does that to me, Fear does that to me,
if my grandma's done, well, I'm calling someone to go
give her some vitamin shots as soon as I possibly
can I can.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
Yeah, yes, definitely. And here's the thing. You know this,
some of these things, this doesn't mean you're never going
to give to the people you love. You're never going
to say, hey, I have a thought. But what it
will do is it will change the paradigm in your mind.
We have to get out of automatic knee jerk reactions,
because that's what they are.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
Yeah, it's almost not mindful. It isn't it's not mindful.
It's not thoughtful. It's reactive.

Speaker 2 (43:20):
That's it. And even if you think it's loving, if
it's a reaction, it's controlling. It's compulsive, and that is different.
And you may choose the same thing. But once you
have a mindful thought about it, you go, Okay, this
is what the person is bringing it to me. You

(43:40):
may say, you know, but I really do want to
tell them about my client who had the same ailment
and what they did to help them. I'm going to
ask them if they're open to getting feedback. So, hey,
are you open? I actually had a client with the
same thing that you had, and she did something and
maybe it'd be helpful to you or you hope it
open to hearing it, And some people will say, well,
that sounds so weird. You're going to ask the people

(44:01):
in your life if they're open to hearing it. Yeah,
you are, because that's called having respect for their sovereignty.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
I loved what you said about triggers because now that
I think about it, a lot of the things that
trigger me and other people are things that I think
I've worked on in myself, and when they're doing it,
it triggers me because I'm like, no, but I know
you can get out of it.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:23):
No, but I know you can be better than this.
But I know that you have the you have the
capacity and ability to be more, to do more. And
I think it comes from this fhere of like of
what I have been in the past, and that triggers me.
To not have anybody else feel that way, ye, to
not feel like you're not worth anything, to not feel
like you don't have something to give. I'm like, but
you do. But I had to go through the thick

(44:45):
of it to remember that for myself.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
Yes, And what you're describing as projection, yes, So it's
painful like it's a sore spot for you, So we
project that that's how they feel. May or they may not,
but either way, it doesn't give us the right to
trample on their boundaries. And it's so much more loving
to say what would help? Is there anything I could do?

Speaker 1 (45:11):
Yeah? And I believe you can do it yourself.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Yes, by by simply not giving advice, You're like, I'm
here because literally, loving wise, the flex is I will
be with you in the fox hole and not fix you.
That is the real flex is I love you enough
to just be here. And it's listen, I'm in recovery
for years, and it's still hard, especially with people like

(45:36):
my husband I'm very close to. It's so hard to
not just say I am I am witnessing you with
so much compassion, so I say that like I hear you, babe.
It sounds hard and I want to tell them what
to do so bad, but I don't because he and listen,

(45:58):
you can't be perfect to mean, we spend tons of
time together. Obviously sometimes I do, but it's funny. The
last time I was in LA we have a puppy
and we lit all these things going on at the house.
We like live on this little farm, and so I
was texting him all these things, being like, do you
know that Charlie needs to get her flee thing? And
you know, I'm just texting from Afar And he was like, babe,

(46:21):
I got it. And I was like, all right, I'm
being super controlling, right and I just said up a video.
I was like, I'm really sorry, am I being an HFC.
He was like, you are, and I love you, but
have faith. I got it. Keep in mind I met
this guy. He was widowed and divorced and had three
teenage sons and had a super successful career as an artists.

(46:41):
I don't know. I think he was fine for the
whole forty years he lived without me. I'm like, oh,
he really needs me to figure out when the lawnmowers
are coming. He's like, yeah, he texted me, babe, I
got it. But anyway, it's.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
Also the best distraction from your own course. You know,
this wis fraction for your own self, is busying yourself
in somebody else's business, whether they asked you for it
or not. And that's also what I find I do
sometimes if I find my emotions are overwhelming, or if
i'm really worried about my grandma and everything that's happening
with her. Let's say when she was unwell, I would

(47:17):
find somebody else that I could because I can't fix
what's happening there. Like, okay, she's in treatment right now,
she's doing there's nothing I can do there. Okay, But
who else can I find to fix? Because I can't
fix you right now? That's out of my reach. That
God's going to have to handle because I can't treat you.
But that friend over there looks like she needs help.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
She could be doing so much better.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
Let me just do that so I don't have to
sit in this emotion of grief and like worry, because
fixing you at least makes me feel a bit better
in another way.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
Oh my god, it's so true, and it's actually such
a good point. I'm glad that you brought it up
about how it's the perfect way to avoid our own stuff.
And here's the thing. Also, nobody listen. Nobody's checking on you,
nobody's checking on me. No one's like, she I hope
Harry is okay. They're like, obviously she's okay, She's always okay, She's.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
I've created that.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
Yeah, of course, we have, we all have. It is
the illusion, and so part of the process of getting
into recovery is allowing people to know the truth when
we're not okay, like asking for help, Allowing not just
Jay right, allowing other people, because it's one thing like
when you're us, you have one designated person where you're like, nay, you,

(48:31):
I trust, I know you're doing it out of love.
But they would have to be Jay's head over hills
for you, my husband's head over heels for me. It's
like it would have to be to such an extreme
that I was so positive he was never going to
screw me over, do you know what I mean? And
that took a long time.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
And honestly, even when I'm in moments of like feeling
that way, it takes a lot for me to even
show up and show that I am in pain to him,
even though he sees me every single day. Same I'd
have to, like he'd have to really see that I'm
being a bit off character. I mean, are you okay? Yes?
Are you okay? Yes, I'm fine, I'm just stressed out
by something. I'm just anxious about something. And then eventually

(49:08):
and he's patient enough to keep asking I'm like, I'm
just really worried about this person, or I'm just really
struggling with this, and I'll have a breakdown once in
a well often and when it gets too much. But
I really have to practice being vulnerable on a regular basis,
because I think I've gotten so used to other people
being vulnerable to me that when people are messaging me
telling me about their things, I'm like, oh, no, I'm fine,

(49:29):
I'm doing great, yep. And I'm like, oh, but it's
just because I process it by myself. Like that's what
I always tell myself. I'm good at processing things by myself,
so I actually don't need to tell anybody.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
This is where that hyperindependence comes in, though, where we
don't want to be a burden. Yeah. And when I
was actively HFC, I really didn't want to owe anybody anything. Right,
I'm happy to do for you. You doing for me,
not so much. I'm not that interested in that. And
my mother in the beginning with my relationship with Vick,
actually it said to me, because vic would he would

(49:59):
want to drive from New Jersey to pick me up
for Manhattan, just to drive me back to New Jersey,
and I'd be like, I could just go to pen
station and take the train. It's so much faster. And
my mother was like her, why are you depriving him
the joy that he gets out of doing love it?
He wants to come scoop you up. Let him come
in and.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
Get you reciprocation. And that's what I've realized. I've stopped this.
The reciprocal action of someone being able to actually give
me love is in them being able to do something
for me, and I block it. I'm like, no, actually
I don't need your help. Okay, so you don't want
me to love you. No, I actually don't want you
to pick me up. I don't want you to help
me on this situation. But it's blocking all these people

(50:35):
from having a more deeper, meaningful relationship with me, because
that is what human interaction in love is, right, Like,
it's reciprocal. It's you, and it doesn't have to be
helping in that way. But you do something for me
out of love, and I'll do something. And the actual
receiving of the gift is just as important as the
giving of the gift.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
Yes, my mother said, look at it like this, terr.
See all of those nice things as him handing you
a blue Tiffany's box when you slam that on the
ground and stomp on it, because that's what you're doing
when you say no. And I was like, I don't
like that image at all, mom, but she was like,
but I think it's true, and it really helped me
be able to be a better receiver. If people want
to get into recovery a a crisis can throw you

(51:16):
back into being an active HFC. So just know that
someone being sick can just make you go off the
rails and feel like you want to control everything. So
it's okay. You can have a little relapse and you
can come back. But the things we have to get
used to is Serrol Richardson has this great book called
let Me Disappoint You, So we need to realize that

(51:37):
sometimes we have to disappoint others to not abandon ourselves.
And any relationship that is built on your self abandonment
is not a healthy relationship. And most people who really
love us don't want that we're doing it voluntarily, So
realize it's okay. And even if your friend wants you

(51:58):
to do something but you have an important thing the
next and you can't go, it's okay that she's disappointed.
She can love you and be disappointed. You can love
her and be disappointed, like it's all right. And the
other thing is that we really have to allow, as
you were saying, we have to surrender to what is
Maybe your friend isn't ready to change. Breathe in that

(52:20):
expansion of just surrendering to what is true. You think
about when you're an active HFC, it's like you're swimming
upstream and like you're just you're laboring so hard, you're
looking there's that tree, and then you're like that same tree,
like how am I not any further up this river?
And when you're in recovery, it's like you flip over
and float and now you can see right. It's like

(52:43):
you're going with the flow. You're allowing the chips to
fall where they may. When they're not your chips, people
feel so much less judged and controlled by you, So
your relationships get better. But you have so much more
bandwidth when you're not bleeding it left and right, because
what it ends up happening really is that we have
a glass ceiling of our own making. When we're actively HFC,

(53:06):
your relationships will only be so deep and you will
only be so successful because you're bleeding bandwidth everywhere.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
I was thinking about how when I imagine when you're
in recovery, one thing I would have to figure out
is knowing what my value is in someone's life beyond it?
Does that make sense? Like how do you figure out?
Because if your value that you've put on yourself in
their life or in that relationship is I am useful
because I do this, this, and this. It's creating almost

(53:38):
a brand new relationship of beyond me. Like if ninety
percent of my conversations are me helping you, what do
we talk about now? Like, how do I create a
new method of communication? How do I find a new
value in our relationship beyond me helping you?

Speaker 2 (53:54):
Well, I think part of it is you have to
question your own relationship to worth value exactly, and you
really have to grasp that by virtue of being alive,
you are worthy. You are valuable. Look at babies, look
at puppies. We don't look at babies, and we're like,
so are you going to make me dinner?

Speaker 1 (54:13):
Yeah? Right?

Speaker 2 (54:14):
We just love you. We just love the shit out
of you. You just exist. You don't do anything. You
just eat and poop and fart. And we just can't
get enough love. You are that baby, I am that baby,
and so the worthiness is already in there. We learn
somehow in life that we needed to be utilitarian to

(54:35):
be a value. But now we're sort of reclaiming our birthright,
which is our inherent worth. So there's that. And then
if ninety percent of your conversation is helping, now at
least half of that is going to be you getting
to know the people that you love, asking expansive questions,

(54:58):
allowing there to be silence, letting people here's the thing.
People have a right to succeed and fail. People have
the right to thrive and to flail, to not know,
to be like I'm a hot mess. And then instead
of saying but you can change it, or but it
won't always be like this, or it could be worse

(55:18):
like hfc's can be the most annoying silver lining detectives
on the planet.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
The delusional optimistde it's like so annoying.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
Right when you're on the receiving end, you're like shut
And also, how about let me be as miserable as
I am right now? Maybe I just need you to
have compassion for the pain that I'm in like with Thick,
he barely ever does it anymore. But if he ever
tries to fix I'm like, babe, do you actually think
I'm not going to figure this out? Of course, look
at my life. Of course I am right now though

(55:52):
I'm hurt. I need you to be with me and
my hurt and him just saying all right, honey, what
can I do? It's amazing. Just be with me. Let's
go for a ride, or just allow me to be
hurt and don't try to fix it. But we can
tell the people in our lives how to love us
by saying, hey, I want to talk about this, but

(56:12):
I'm actually not looking for any input. I don't need
any solutions. What I would love if you could just
be a compassionate ear. It really helps me to know
that you know I'm in pain. I don't know why,
but it just makes me feel better to Yes, we're
together and I'm in pain, and you're witnessing me truthfully, authentically,

(56:33):
and you love me anyway.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
I think that would also help you to process it
faster and easier, because as soon as you acknowledge it,
that's number one, then you share it with someone else,
You've released it from your body in some way, you've
released it from your mind in some way. I always say,
if you don't feel like talking to someone, put pen
to paper and at least you've got It's like the
more and more you say it, the more you're processing it,
the more you're processing it, the more it's releasing from you.

(56:56):
And so if you can't talk to someone, put it
onto paper. But if you can talk to someone, it's
that idea of letting it go. Every layer is being
shed the more that you think about it, the more
you process it. And I feel like that would probably
help get rid of those feelings a lot faster.

Speaker 2 (57:11):
Yes, And what you resist persists. So when we're in
denial and when someone else is trying to fix what's
wrong with us, right, it's so painful, we're holding on
like a dog with a bone to the pain because
I need you to see that I'm in pain, like
I need that from the people in my life. Don't

(57:32):
treat me like a problem to fix because it's so
painful for me. You to want me to be in
a neat little bowl like I was doing to my
sister instead of just dealing with the fact that she
wasn't ready. And it was a ship show of a situation,
but it wasn't my shit show.

Speaker 1 (57:50):
Yeah, I've gotten used to telling my before. I used
to be so worried about telling my mum when I
was upset because I thought it would really worry her
and she would get very affected by it. And then
I realized it was just, you know, really stopping a
big part of our relationship where I can say, Mom,
I'm going to cry right now, and I'm going to
cry a lot, and I just need you to know
that you can't do anything about it, but I'm feeling

(58:11):
this way. You may not understand it, but I need
you to not worry because I'm going to be fine.
And so we really had to get into this routine
of her not frantically worrying because I'm crying. I'm a cryer.
I need you to know that too. You don't know
this because you've not seen me cry a lot, but
I cry a lot, and I need you to know
that that is my release. So if I come to
you and I'm crying, it may be really serious or

(58:31):
it may not be serious at all, but I just
need you to see me cry, and I need you
to tell me. That's literally all I need right now.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
Yes, And when we can tell people what we need,
that's it. It's so amazing when they can give it
to us, because that makes you feel loved.

Speaker 1 (58:47):
To be seen, yes, to be seen and not fixed,
to be seen like you would.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
Be amazing if you would just get it together. It
doesn't feel good.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
No, it really doesn't. You talk about people pleasing in
the book as well, And I need to ask you
a question. Is it actually possible for a human to
actually not care if someone doesn't like them?

Speaker 2 (59:06):
I mean, I have not cracked the code on that
personal speaks to know. I'm gonna say probably not. Now,
there is a way of being extremely discerning about whose
opinion you give a shit about. So I always tell
people you want to create what I call a VIP
section in your life. So these are people who are

(59:29):
emotionally trustworthy. These are people where there is mutuality in
your relationships and that you know are like rooting for you. Right,
And that doesn't mean every person in your family has
to be in the VIP section, right. These are people
we really have to vet them from an emotional standpoint.
And so I care what those people think. Yes I do,

(59:51):
I do, but not all of them and not about everything.
So even with I love my mother, I care what
she thinks. I'm not taking career from my mother obviously,
yeah right, like I'm not because that wouldn't be the
person I would do it with, because that wouldn't make
any sense. But I care that she thinks I'm a kind,
decent human because that is who she raised me to be,

(01:00:13):
and those are her values and my values as well.
So she's always like, it makes me so proud everyone
tells me how nice you guys are, because I have
three older sisters, and that's her biggest compliment is that
we're kind and considerate and we help those who are
less fortunate. That that was the way that I was raised. Right,
She doesn't care about a best selling book. She wants

(01:00:33):
to know who did I help lately? You know what
I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
And what do you think is the mindset behind someone
who because I've struggled with this a lot, especially since
I've you know, goten an online platform and had a
wider amount of people seeing me on a daily basis,
and you know, I think lots of people struggle with
this online. How can one decide when you're thinking about
what someone thinks about you too much, Like, at what

(01:00:57):
point do you I know you said it's about the
people who while within your vicinity that you are emotionally
invested with. But how can you stop worrying or what
is the mindset behind caring so much about what people
that you don't even know think about you? Well?

Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
I think that Listen, all of us who are influencers
in different fields have to deal with it. This is
reality because it's part of our business model, right. It's like,
so it isn't like Instagram isn't just fun. It's like
what we're doing because this is where our clients are,
This is where the people who are buying books are,
This is where you know and their fans, I mean
they actually are. So I think that you have to

(01:01:33):
be clear. I am very clear in my comment section
that if there are any like real pot stirs, any
people who are just looking to you know, what is it.
There's this woman who was on the who was on
Glennon Doyle Show, and she forgot her name, but she
wrote a book and she talks about entrepreneurs of conflict,

(01:01:54):
like people who are just looking to mix it up.
They're just bored. They're just saying provocative shit just to
be provocative, I will. If your heart isn't in the
right place, you are blocked and kicked out of my
community immediately. Now people can disagree with me, I have
no problem with that as long as it's respectful. The
moment people are bringing in any kind of disrespect, you're out.

(01:02:14):
And I don't owe you any explanation you don't want
because this shit is free. Yes, are you paying me
to watch me on Instagram? You are not, And I'm
giving I mean, I have six hundred and fifty videos
on YouTube that are free. If somebody had no money,
you could literally have mental health by going to my
YouTube channel. Because I wanted to even the playing field
that was like, it shouldn't just be people with money

(01:02:36):
can have therapy that doesn't seem correct. So I'm always
putting out like the highest quality free stuff that I
possibly can because I want everyone to be able to
do it. And even there, my team knows, and everyone knows.
I've got rules of engagement everywhere where we're not giving
each other advice. I'm the only therapist here, yes, And
what's giving advice? It's just me. It's that one way

(01:02:56):
stream right now that is correct. This is not a democracy.
This is a benevolent dictatorship, and I'm a dictator.

Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
Yeah, you know, I think that when I reflect on
why I have cared so much in the past, I
really think one, obviously, there's a sense of really being
in a state where you have more self worth. But
also I think it's when you're speaking from a point
of authenticity. I know when I have felt most alignment,
when I felt like my words are matching my thoughts

(01:03:27):
and my actions and everything feels like it's in flow
and I'm not being another person online, I'm just being myself.
That is when I care much less about what other
people are saying. But as soon as and so really
I see it more as a reflection of how my
internal state is to how much I am taking on
someone else's negative view of me. Because as soon as

(01:03:50):
I'm showing up inauthentically when someone else tells me I am,
I'm like, oh, that doesn't sound nice. Why are people
saying that about me? How can they say that about me?
And then I realize, actually, even just within this conversation,
that a lot of it comes from when I feel
like I'm at my best and I'm speaking words that
I believe and I'm sharing things that mean so much
to me. Yeah, I don't look at how many comments

(01:04:12):
there are. I don't look at how many likes that
I do not care. I've said this. I've put this
out into the world because I feel it and I
want to share it, which is a super healthy way
to do it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
Yes, right, Because it's the same thing with when you're
if you're telling someone your boundary, let's say, and they
don't like it. Yeah, the healing is in the asserting
of self. Your healing is in the asking for what
you want, even if the person can't give it to you. Yes,
And so that's exactly what you're saying. Like, if I'm
putting out what I want and people, now, it's different.

(01:04:43):
If I say something I make a mistake publicly, a
loss of people who are up in arms because I
said something that was insensitive, that's different. Right, I'll handle that.
I will apologize for that if I believe that I
did it or whatever the thing is. But there's something
about having all these eyes on us as influencers, and
I you know, it's not even like I'm not even
that influential, but more and more and more as it grows,

(01:05:05):
and I think that we have to be solid internally
because fame itself. You know, I used to be a
talent agent before I became a therapist, and so I,
you know, used to represent supermodels and celebrities. That was
what my sort of niche was, and so I was
always fascinated by the psychology of fame, what happens to
people when they become famous. Then it became a psychotherapist,

(01:05:27):
so then I it just I naturally just started having
clients who are very highly visible. Just made sense, and
it's unbelievable, Like what a head trip it can be
to have hundreds of millions of eyes on you, and
how self conscious it can make you. And so I've
got lots of rules and regulations from my clients, so

(01:05:49):
like not being you really have to have that fifteen
minute timer no longer than that every day ten minutes
is even better. Wow, of just keeping it real. You
can't get in there. They cannot climb into those kind
of sections.

Speaker 1 (01:06:02):
Yes, no, I agree, And I think that the more
you just end up showing up as you and I
think about that even when it comes to physically showing
up like whenever I of course, unless you're like a
beauty influencer doing makeup stuff. But for me, what really
helps is if I show up and I'm just no filter,
putting no makeup, speaking certain words that I know means

(01:06:24):
something to me, then I'm so much less anxious when
I'm going into the public world where I'm actually meeting people,
Like I always used to think when I would meet people,
they would feel like they meet a different version of me,
because I'm actually quite an introvert. When I meet people
for the first time, I'm really comfortable behind the screen.
I'm really comfortable with my core friends and the people.
But if I'm in larger environments, you might get a
shyer version of me that they're not expecting. And so

(01:06:47):
sometimes just being able to show up in the same
way online as you would as to a person when
you meet them allows it to be less discrepancy. I
feel like there's just this duality that you end up having, yeah,
that keeps fighting one another when you show up as
something else, and then you'll you end up having to
keep up with all these different versions of yourself, and
it's so draining.

Speaker 2 (01:07:07):
It's so true. When I first started being public with
this in two thousand and nine or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:07:11):
It was.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
One of my friends, Danielleporte, was like, you know, I
would do my videos and be all like therapy life
and I'd be all like pearls and shit and be
like and Jerrychole or whatever I was doing. And she
was like, where's my Jersey friend. Why don't you curse
in your videos? Terror? Why are you not being funny?
You're so funny? Yeah, And I'm like, well, because I'm

(01:07:32):
a therapistist, I think this is what people are expecting.
She's like, dude, don't don't even go down this road.
And actually she was the first person whoever really encouraged me.

Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
She was like, to just be yourself when you walked
in the door today, I have to say this. You know,
when you think of what a psychotherapist is or like
someone who's in that field, you do think of someone
who's like serious, and you know, you walked in and
my team was like, oh my gosh, she walked in
and she cursed when she walked in. We love her
energy like she is. And it's true, like as soon

(01:08:02):
as you walked in the door, I felt who you were.
You sat down here and you are who you are,
and it creates less discrepancy for you, but also for
the person that's experiencing you. It is literally the same
person that walked in the door, that sat on this
chair and is speaking in the mic. So I appreciate
you doing that so much. It was really great to
experience that from the moment I met.

Speaker 2 (01:08:20):
You right on, and hopefully that lets other people in
my vicinity. I hope. I mean, that's not why I
did it, want to be themselves.

Speaker 1 (01:08:27):
Yes, definitely. There was one other part that you said
in your book, which I really loved. You said, unhealed
shame can show up in our lives as perfectionism. Could
you explain that a little bit, because yeah, I think
that would really useful.

Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
Well, think about what perfectionism is. It's like we're working
so hard to be above reproach so no one can
tell us we did it wrong, and then we become it.
So like we've internalized the shamers, whoever, whoever those were
in our lives because most of us, you know, hate
to go back to the scene of the crime, but
we need to because most of us as family of
origin stuff, So we take it on ourselves to be like,

(01:09:03):
I'm going to do everything so right that no one
will be able to say anything about me. So I
will keep myself safe by being perfect. And the thing is,
obviously there is no perfection, and life is messy as hell. Yeah,
love is messy. Success is messy, right. Success includes failure, which,

(01:09:23):
if you're a perfectionist, is like death where you can't
even deal. And a lot of times perfectionists will not
do things outside of their comfort zone if they're not
masterful at it. So your life gets small if you're
not good at it. And the thing is adventures and
learning new skills and learning a new language, all the
things that make life juicy and amazing. It's like you

(01:09:47):
don't do them because you're not good at them.

Speaker 1 (01:09:50):
Because you have to become a beginner again, and that's
too scary. Yes, what if you fail and people see it?

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
Yes, and then that activates that shame.

Speaker 1 (01:09:57):
It became such a cage. I feel like I went
through that, but I think mine was more from a
state of feeling like I wasn't good at anything, and
then when I found something I was good at and
people were like, oh, you're actually really good at this,
and this is great what you're doing, and it makes
sense for you to then go back to doing something
else that made me think I could fail at this. Yes,
that was scary to me. Yes, but then I realized

(01:10:18):
exactly what you said. I was in a little cage
that I'd created for myself. But I wanted to say
yes to things, and I wanted to try new things out,
and I wanted that excitement in my life of trying
something new and failing and experiencing and getting things wrong.
But it was literally like I'd built this little cage
around me and like, no, this is your safe zone.
This is what you're good at.

Speaker 2 (01:10:37):
Stick to that.

Speaker 1 (01:10:38):
And then as soon as I started saying yes to things,
and I've continued to say yes to things that I
actually may not have been good at and I have
failed at and they have been really terrible, but some
of them have been amazing. Yes, and some of those
things have I've found out so much about myself through
doing them, and I'd be so sad if I hadn't
taken the opportunity to learn that about myself.

Speaker 2 (01:10:57):
It's so enlivening to be in a learning curve, right.
Think about what that feels like when you start to
get good at something. It's so it's so exciting. What
is the cost, right of We've already talked about relationships.
We understand the cost to us is exhaustion, TMJ, autoimmune disorders, insomnia.
There's so many things that I've seen in my practice
over the many years, cancer MS. I mean, there's just

(01:11:19):
this state of hypervigilance that most HFCs are in is
really bad for your nervous system. If there's a whole
entire chapter on nervous system stuff. What we're doing when
we are always thinking about what this person should do
and going into the future and being like, is this
you know? Because anticipatory planning is another behavior that hfc's

(01:11:39):
will employ, which is making sure if you're going to
be with someone who's difficult, you make sure you think
of everything that could go wrong. You know, Uncle Bob
likes this kind of booze and he's a pain, and
as I'm going to make sure I have that kind
of booze and he has like gymis, so I won't
put them together, and I'll like, I'm going to twist
myself up in a pretzel and let myself on fire
so all these people can be warm.

Speaker 1 (01:11:57):
Basically planning on family holiday, Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 (01:11:59):
Oh my god, God, one hundred percent, and it's absolutely exhausting.
But what happens is we end up living what I
call life light lite because you're so much here that
life ends up being only half as like, deep and
juicy and delicious as it should be. Because we're so

(01:12:21):
busy trying to control and word off bad things from
happening and making sure no one else is in pain,
that we're really sacrificing the depth of the life that
we're meant to live.

Speaker 1 (01:12:33):
Doctor Gavimarte says this, and he said, when you're living
in someone else's mind, you're not living your life. When
you're constantly in someone else's mind worrying about what they're
thinking about you, Well, they're thinking about you're not present
in your own life, correct, And that really hit me.
I was like, that's so true. I'm not observing my life.
I'm not Actually, I may be physically present, but I'm

(01:12:55):
not mentally present here. Only half of me is here
because I'm constantly living in someone else is mine. And
he says that even about the perception that someone has
of you, if you're constantly thinking about how they're seeing it,
who even are you? Are you experiencing who you are. Right,
But yeah, thank you for hitting that, because that's a
great point to make.

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
Thank you for this exhausting, all exhausting. We need to rest.

Speaker 1 (01:13:17):
Yeah, you're right. I always think about when I think
about what rest I need. And I was so used
to thinking rest is just okay, I need to wedge
out from the TV, I need to sit, and I
need to do nothing. And then I realized there's so
many different types of rest. There's mental rest, physical rest,
emotional rest, spiritual rest. What does that look like? Y
And so sometimes I would have a full weekend of rest.
What seems like rest, but my mind is still going yep.

(01:13:41):
So I had to distinguish between what type of rest
it was I needed. Is it social rest? But sometimes
all I need is no planning, no nothing, no keeping
to time, just being and allowing myself to physically be
and mentally be present in whatever I am doing. And
that for me felt like rest.

Speaker 2 (01:13:59):
Oh, I love it. I think that people who are
listening and watching this, if you're wondering, how can you
get out of this groove? Yeah, you feel like you're
in this HFC groove. Before you agree to anything, I
want you to ask yourself two questions. One can I
do I have the bandwidth to do this without becoming resentful?
Two do I even want to do it? And if

(01:14:21):
the answer is no, I want you to understand that
that's a legitimate reason not to do something. And of
course we're in relationships with other people. Obviously we're going
to compromise in our relationships, but a lot of times
we're just auto yesing it up to please other people
and it's really really exhausting. And if you want a

(01:14:43):
little guide, I created something for you. Oh amazing Terry
Coole dot com forward slash HFC can't forget it. It's
just an HFC toolkit that's useful to be Like, where
do I start?

Speaker 1 (01:14:56):
Help?

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
This is where you start?

Speaker 1 (01:14:57):
Yeah, thank you. I think that the main thing that
stuck out to me. I mean so many things, but
the one thing is knowing that the way that you
can love someone the most is by not in putting
yourself into their life, like sometimes love looks like that.
And I think that's something that's for me, as someone
who definitely identifies as being HFC, is it's knowing that

(01:15:17):
that that simply will stop me from inserting myself unnecessarily
into someone's life and feel satisfied and okay with it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:25):
Yes, and let let's let's be really specific and nuanced
with the language that it's not inserting your opinion into
what they should do, which is different because you might
you might say, hey, do you want to go for
a walk? I know you're not feeling great, so we
can still be in their life. That's the part of
being in the fox hole where you're like, maybe you

(01:15:46):
want to go to a movie. We don't have to
talk be with them even if they're not good company.
Let others be with us even when we're not good company.
For Francess, I won't be a good company. I was like,
your job is not to entertain me as your friend.
I just want to be with you, and if you're
feeling low, I'm happy to just be with you.

Speaker 1 (01:16:06):
Thank you, Thank you so much for this. This was
honestly such an INCREDI I feel like I had a
little therapy session. So I appreciate that. Thank you so much.
But I really think it's going to help so many
people to build deeper relationships, more meaningful moments with people,
and have a good amount of reflection on their own actions.
And what they really mean to other people.

Speaker 2 (01:16:24):
Well, thank you for having me things

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Host

Radhi Devlukia

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