All The Smoke: How Skip Bayless Changed Sports TV Forever (& Made A Lot of Enemies) | Full Episode | ALL THE SMOKE - All The Smoke

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
H m hmmmm mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Welcome back to all the smoke. Day two in our
new building.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
It's still pretty naked, but we just met with the
designer this morning to get some final touches. It's it's
gonna come alive, trust me, Jack. I was really excited
about this one because one, first of all, I have
a lot of respect for what he's done to this
space and and and the longevity's had. But also I've
been outwardly what's the right word, I can use critical?

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Critical?

Speaker 3 (00:51):
There you go where we're gonna. We're in the world tidy.
I could tell you're already finishing my senses. I've been
critical of of sometimes some of his critiques, but you
you know me, I'm someone that wants to learn and
have conversations about people that I may disagree with or
you know, stuff like that. So before I picked my
bone with you, mister Bayless, yes, I want to really

(01:13):
give you your flowers for what you've been able to do.
I really got a chance to kind of study up
on you and your journey with your family and just
kind of the way you grinded to the absolute top
of this business.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
If there is a hall of fame for this.

Speaker 3 (01:28):
I'm sure you will be in it one day, but
really just what you've meant and the inspiration you've been
to a lot of people. You know, you gave Jack
his first opportunity, and we'll talk about that in a
little bit, but really just wanted to let you know,
you know now that you're officially kind of off TV,
still in the game, but off TV.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
That we really appreciated everything you've done in this space.

Speaker 4 (01:47):
Honored by everything you just said. Much respect for you
and the man to your right. I've been on TV
with both of you, and I'm looking forward to being
in your space. Yeah, the view and I hand flowers
back to both of you, because you have blazed a
new trail and I'm in awe of it. And when

(02:10):
I first heard about it, I thought interesting because you
both have wisdom and edge that you brought from many
many years of playing on the edge, and you brought
it together here. It's a great pairing and you broke through,

(02:30):
both of you, and you're on the rise and rising
and you haven't seen the top yet. And you should
both be congratulated because as players, you both had to
fight your way up. That man went, where'd you go? Australia,
Dominican where else? Venezuela right just to get to the league,

(02:55):
and you did your G league time and then you
both broke through in the league in different ways in
different places, and then you recreated here and this is
more successful than either of you ever were to me
in the league, no question. So congratulations, thanks you and
fire away.

Speaker 3 (03:15):
Let's get to let's get to the ship now. So
obviously again, you know, you guys changed the dynamic with
Debate TV. But I felt like, kind of like the
last three years and where I kind of was outwardly,
you know, critiquing as you would critique, was I kind
of felt it went from critiquing the game, it went
poor play, shitty team to personal attacks and two people

(03:40):
in particular, I felt kind of it got personal at times.
Was with Russell Westbrook and Lebron James. From your experience
and understanding who you were, your role, how you really
found your niche and again as sail to the top
what at one point I felt like there was a
line again it was critiquing because I was the job,
and then I felt like the line kind of race
and it was more personal attacks. Can you kind of

(04:03):
address your thinking during that and reasoning or the way
you looked at it.

Speaker 4 (04:08):
Okay, we got to go one at a time, different
situations and circumstances for both of those players. Do who
want to start with Lebron?

Speaker 2 (04:18):
Whoever you would like to?

Speaker 4 (04:19):
Okay, I say what I see and I still believe
to this moment, Lebron has been the most overprotected superstar
in the history of the game. I have thrown him many, many,
many flowers when it's time to throw flowers. I have
constantly consistently, though nobody wants to hear me do this,

(04:41):
but I've said to this day, to this moment, he's
still the best passer in basketball on a nightly basis.
As I always say, I watch every dribble of every game.
He will take my breath away twice a game with
a pass he'll make where I'll say, that's just special,
that's that's a gift. He's a generational passer of the basketball,

(05:03):
and I've said a thousand times sometimes to that man.
He is easily the greatest driver of the basketball I've
ever seen, because he's ambidextrous at six ' nine whatever
we give him now to sixty issue and obviously an
explosive athlete with the highest IQ in basketball. It's somewhere

(05:26):
between him and Magic with the highest IQ. Ever, to me,
that's just me, and I know that's pretty subjective. I
frame all this with the positivity, and obviously what he's
done off the court is stellar. It's not a leid,
but in this day and age, it's close. We know
all the racial social justice what he just did with Kamala,
but highest marks. Okay, So now we take this man

(05:53):
who is the greatest score in the history of this game,
and let's start with this. By his standards, he's a
poor three point shooter, and by his standards, he's a
pathetic free throw shooter. At seventy four percent for his career,
Jordan was eighty four percent Magic Bird, they're ninety ish

(06:17):
percent KD ninety percent. There have been so many flame
out moments for Lebron in his career. And remember on TV,
I was often thrown up against Shannon Sharp, who loves
Lebron like a brother, I mean, like like a stalker, right,
I mean it got a little scary for me. Sometimes scared,

(06:40):
all right, But he's just proclaiming Lebron better than Jordan. Well,
I'm the biggest Jordan fan.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
In his I'm with you, I'm with you, I'm I'm withky.

Speaker 4 (06:50):
Okay, Like I get goosebumps talking about Michael Jeffery Jordan
because I got to know him. I was there in
Chicago in ninety eight for the Last Dance Season. Listen,
this man is. He's in another universe to me from
Lebron Bleeping James. So if you're gonna compare them, I'm
gonna say Jordan never had any epic fails and anything

(07:12):
he did in the playoffs, even when they lost, when
he didn't have Pip yet, he'd score sixty three in overtime.
But Boston and Larry Bird would say, I just saw
God in sneakers, you know, like, Okay, all right, So
that's the framework of what I'm doing again. Do I
hate Lebron? I don't know Lebron. I'm actually happy I

(07:32):
don't because I'm afraid if I were around him very much.
I think he's a really good guy, a really nice guy,
sometimes nice to a fault. Because I was around Jordan
a lot, not a nice guy all the time. He
was a bad MF man and he wore it on
his sleeves and when it was time to be a
bad MF. He scared the hell out of the rest

(07:53):
of the league. I don't think Lebron scares the hell
out of the rest of the league because I think
they all really like him and he wants to be
liked to a fault.

Speaker 3 (08:01):
Can you give us your reason behind the Westbrook situation?

Speaker 4 (08:06):
So this runs deep for me, and there is some
personal here. I will admit I was a Kevin Durant
fan since he was at Texas. So I was on
a show called Cold Pizza in two thousand and four
in New York City. I start watching this kid from
DC and I say, this is something, man, this is

(08:27):
going to be revolutionary. He looks like he's seven feet
tall and he's long, and he can shoot the hell
out of it from mid range. I mean shoot the
hell out of it like he's shooting little free throws,
you know, like it's just it's gimmes where nobody can
touch it because he's shooting it up so high that
you try to defend him, and hey, you can try.

(08:50):
What what are you six eighthesay? So you can go
up as hard and as high as you go right
on time, you can time it perfectly. You can get
as hot, you can hit your apex of reach, and
if he goes up correctly, you got no shots. Yeah,
because it's over you. And he's too damn good at

(09:11):
what he does, and he works hard at it, and
he shoots a billion shots. He's just one of those guys.
He just loves to be in the gym. He's a
gym rat and he loves to practice fifteen feet, fourteen feet,
thirteen feet, seventeenth feet automatic. So I'm watching him at
Texas and he's already a man. I'm on boys, and
he's playing against some kids who are twenty years old,

(09:33):
twenty one, twenty two, and I'm saying, wait a second,
this is this is going to revolution shots. So I
start saying it on Cole Pizza. I'm on with Woody
Page and Jay Crawford. They are laughing at me on
the air, like stop it, it's way too soon. You're overreacting.
Then we had Bill cellphone coach at Kansas obviously, and

(09:55):
Jay Crawford our moderators interviewing him. It's not on with us,
it's just Jay and Bill. And Bill says, could I
take a left turn here on paraphrase and I said it,
but he said, I just wanted you to tell Skip
he's right about Kevin Durant because we can't deal with him.
Kansas couldn't deal with Kevin Durant. Okay, so he winds
up in Seattle. But then, okay, I'm from Oklahoma City.

(10:17):
So they he plays a year in Seattle, but they
wind up in Okay. See, I never in my life
could have imagined my hometown would have any pro sport,
especially an NBA team of magnitude, because they land in
Oklahoma City and they got Katie and Russ and James.
Are you kidding me? You have three Hall of Famers

(10:40):
there and you got Surge.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (10:44):
It's like you got to deal with We had to
deal with it. Okay, So right away what happens is
little brother starts taking more shots than big brother. Russ
starts taking more shots, and UCLA got your CLA guy.
But I didn't see Russ coming at UCLA. Stayed for
two years, and I watched him in the playoffs and

(11:05):
the marsh Madness and finals, the NCAA Finals or the
Final four, and I could I don't know if you did,
but I couldn't see it. Coming. I didn't see this coming, right,
because go back and look at what is happening, Like
six or seven points just coming off the bench. I
could he didn't even catch my eye. Right, It's Kevin

(11:27):
Love and Collison and you know, like it is a
good team. Okay, So night after night I'm watching my
Oklahoma City Thunder and Russell Westbrook is taking more shots.
I just go back and show you the numbers. He's
taken more shots than Kevin Durant. I know Kevin's the
most efficient scorer we've ever seen, but still I'm saying

(11:49):
that's that's not right. And so I start to criticize
Russ for taking more shots. This is now I'm on
first take. And Kevin didn't lie because it was bad
for their unity, for their their their camaraderie, for their chemistry, because.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
Right, okay, it was bad for the team.

Speaker 5 (12:12):
Okay, if Russ and Katie on the team, Katie should
be taking more shots. That ain't no shot at Russ
is just so.

Speaker 4 (12:19):
Kat When when evening before a game, he calls over
the reporter from the Oklahoma who covers the team, and
he says, I got something for it, and he blasts me,
and they put it in the Oklahoma and then I
have to go on TV the next day and defend
myself because Kevin said Skip doesn't no ship about basketball,
and I'm like, yeah, I do. I actually do. And

(12:42):
what I'm saying is completely true and fair. Kevin, I'm
your I'm your biggest fan. How can you do this
to me?

Speaker 2 (12:48):
Well?

Speaker 4 (12:49):
I didn't matter to Kevin, but Russ really really mattered
to Kevin.

Speaker 2 (12:53):
I want no division in the locker room.

Speaker 4 (12:54):
Okay, So God bless him because you would have done that.
You would have done that because in the end, all
that matters is that basketball. And remember, Kevin chose to
leave Russ. And I was told by somebody very close
to Kevin Durant the main reason he left OKAC going
into his tenth year. That was ten years. That's a

(13:15):
long time he left because this was the quote I
was told. He finally decided he'd never win with Russ
as his primary decision maker because Russ is dribbling the
ball up to court, and it's like Rusk gets to
choose every time, near you, near you, because Kevin's usually

(13:35):
just over there like can I have it? No, I'm
going solo. And sometimes he'd get to the rim and
slam it and you say, my god, that was spectacular.
And sometimes the ball is flying into the ninth row
and you're saying, poor Kevin Durant. And he finally said,
you know what, you can shame me all you want
to shame me. I'm going with those guys because I'm

(13:56):
gonna go get me a ring. And did he not
do that? Did he not rise and shine in two
straight finals and take the finals over? I loved it
because they knew Steph and Clay and Draymond and Steve
Kerr knew full well they were not going to beat
Lebron and whoever was left with him we didn't know
about Kyrie at that point, or Kevin loved but but

(14:19):
there was no way that they were going to beat
Lebron without Kevin. And Kevin tilted the playing field. Man.
He just like like, now there, he's too good. It's
not that STEP's too good or play's too good. Kevin,
that guy you you tried to guard and did a
very You did the best job on him. Seriously, I've
ever seen anybody do over what was it six games? Okay,

(14:42):
because because he's just gonna wear you out mentally, and
physically because you can give all you want, but that
that's the best I've ever seen anybody do on him
because nobody can deal with it.

Speaker 2 (14:51):
Nobody.

Speaker 5 (14:52):
I agree with you on on certain things too, about
Lebron and clutch moments and the rust situation. But you know,
I don't see I can see how some people take
it personal.

Speaker 4 (15:02):
Me.

Speaker 5 (15:03):
I'm I think I'm Russ's biggest fan. I talk about
Russ Moore than everybody. Yeah, and you know I'm how
I'm brown too. But sometimes people got to understand not
to twist where they easily twist your words, but if
they just look at the play and talk about the game,
A lot of things you're saying are true. Yeah, I
think you say about them are true because when you're
talking about the game, you're not making it personal. When

(15:23):
it's about the game, you watch the game. A lot
of players feel the same way. We think Broun should
take over some times in games, Like I remember one
game he passed to Kyle Koba. He did for three
you know what I'm saying, And I gotta thing like,
you got to take that shot. It's not a personal
shot at him, But me if I was on that team,
I would have told him, bro, take that shot. I
don't care if I'm open, you gotta take that shot.
That stuff you do be saying just for your for

(15:44):
your side, I agree with because as a basketball player,
you won't throw stars to make those plays.

Speaker 3 (15:48):
Okay, do you have a photographic memory? You just fucking
love it that much, you study it that much. You
were getting the night Friday Night Game three. I'm just
like clock you said, do you remember something like fuck, No,
I don't remember. I mean, Jesus, I love it.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
I mean, that's a happen question.

Speaker 3 (16:13):
I mean, obviously, being in this space for such a
long time, when did you realize that your words really
started to carry weight? And it really kind of whether
it was a positive or a negative, it really kind
of had people talking at what point in your career.

Speaker 4 (16:26):
I take what I do like crazy, Seriously, I'm obsessed
with it to this moment, I'm more obsessed than ever,
as I just demonstrated. But off camera, I don't think
like that, like I'm important or my words carry weight.
I don't know. It started in two thousand and four

(16:46):
called Pizza, when I would be shocked when Bill self
would take a detour on live National TV and say, hey,
Skip was right about Kevin Durant. And I'm thinking Bill
self knew that I said that about it Kevin. That's
interesting because I actually covered Bill when he was a
coach at Illinois way back when. And I know him

(17:06):
a little bit, but he's really good at what he does.
I know they've had some issues and whatnot, but but
he's just really good. So if he said that he
knows basketball, and he knows that I know basketball, so
so that that had gravity to me, That that had
foundation to me where I said, Okay, people are listening
watching taking me more seriously than I take myself because

(17:30):
I'm just spilling because I'm a fan. Nobody loves the
game you played more than I do. Nobody trust me
on this. I just spill it every night. I like
to night. I already looked at the schedule. I'm gonna watch.
I like the thunder Way more than I like the
Westbrook Durant Hard and thunder They were hard to love

(17:51):
for me, just because Russ and then James and it
was just different. Hey, this thing what they got going
right now?

Speaker 2 (17:58):
Hey?

Speaker 3 (17:58):
H and if they got an unprotected pick next Clippers protected?

Speaker 4 (18:04):
Yes, yes, they do, and I have been so hard
over the last twenty years on white American centers being
taken in the lottery. Anybody seven foot and above who's
white and American. I can just show you chapter and verse.
They're disasters. You know what they're You know why, because

(18:28):
they're classic, they're classic stiffs. They're just all they got.

Speaker 2 (18:33):
All they got is.

Speaker 4 (18:33):
That they're seven foot one. That's all they got. But
they can't play basketball. I can do a whole long listed,
but the one I got I just did on my
podcast this week. You remember Meyers Leonard? Okay, all right,
so you cross his path? Okay you did, Yeah, okay.
That was the one where I got in trouble at
ESPN for saying on Draft Day, because the rumors were

(18:56):
he was going to go late lottery. I said, no,
bad idea, really bad idea, and I used on the
air because he's white America. Now is the eurocenters, you know, joker,
And we can just go on back to Valancunos and
all the way back to Sabonus's dad and all those.
So the point is that the white American sinners have

(19:21):
been disasters until I saw this video to what two
years ago, this kid up in Minneapolis whose father played
at Minnesota and was probably a white stiff at Minnesota.
But this kid named Hongrid, he could jump, like quick jump,
and he was long and like bean pole skinny, but

(19:42):
he could run. I mean he can run. And his
shot is textbook pure stroke, like like pretty stroke, Like
you couldn't teach your kid to shoot it much better
than he strokes it from three and he shoots it
like he means it with conviction. I'm saying, hey, that
that kid can play. And the thunder wind up with

(20:04):
him and listen, he's off to a ripple and start
this year because he went to Joker on opening nine
and busted his We did a number on with.

Speaker 3 (20:15):
You know, I mean as great as Wimby is, And
obviously we don't know the future, but we had a
debate with Kendrick Parkins and can you possibly see Chet
being just as good, if not better than Wemby And
obviously they both have long, great careers, long to pointers.

Speaker 4 (20:31):
But chat out played Wimby the other night and then
Wimby plays at Utah last night and they haven't won
a game and marking and didn't play and Wimby puts
up fives where he's got five steels and five blocks.
Well obviously, well I mean, and yet you know I'm
gonna do this with you just real quick, because you

(20:51):
know I've long been a Spurs fan back to George
Gerbin because his finger rolls and all his magic at
the basket. It just I was mesmerized by the iceman.
But I can't wrap my arms around Pop. I just can't.
You had your issues. He's just like Belichick to me.

(21:13):
With Brady, I think Pop was in large part a
product of Tim Bleeping Duncan, because Timmy was such a
great locker room leader like Brady was. That Pop could
be old school tough, you know, hard ass and all that,
like Belichick, but Tim would tell everybody it's cool, it's cool,
just just just tune it out or whatever. We're gonna

(21:36):
win a whole bunch of games. And obviously Edmin and Tony,
but once remember Pop used to say, when Timmy walks
out that door, I will be right behind him. Well
guess what, ladies and gentlemen. That was eight years ago,
and Pop signed for another three years. Because that was bullshit,
That's what that was. And people swallowed that bullshit from Pop,

(21:57):
and ever since Timmy walked out that door, show me
what Pop has done. Do you see the goat coach?
Because I don't see it. And with Wimby last year,
he ran away with the blocks. Lead crushed chet and
blocks last year and he was obviously by the end
of the year, he was extraordinary. And they only won
twenty two games, and they're not off to a great

(22:18):
start this year. And you say Chess got a better team,
Sure he does. I mean they're just loaded, They're like
ten deep. But the Spurs have some talent on that team,
and I don't see it reach any fruition. And I'm
wondering how long is the honeymoon for Pop?

Speaker 5 (22:35):
Well, right, what I will say about that is if
you look at the coaching staff when I was there,
with Mike Brown and coach Bud, they both went off
to have great careers and great coaches in anybate to
this day. Okay, So I would say Pop is not
a great basketball coach. Good he's with you.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
He's a great leader of men, all right.

Speaker 3 (22:53):
Because for me, You're gonna take some heat for that shit,
But that's fine, that's okay.

Speaker 5 (22:57):
That's fine because because he had great coaches up under him.
I think Papa is a great leader of men. You
know what I'm saying, putting guys in the right position
a perfect example.

Speaker 2 (23:05):
I would say this.

Speaker 5 (23:06):
If I didn't go to San Antonio or the beginning
of my career, I wouldn't learn how to be a professional.
I wouldn't learn how to be approciate that I want
to learn how to prepare. And that's what Pop does.
He brings He makes everybody buy into a championship idea,
what should happen, what a championship, a team and organizations
should look like. And he he brings the right pieces around.
That's why he had Mike Brown is white had, but

(23:27):
news his white had, PJ. Carlossimo, all these guys. He
even brought Sam Presty, and Sam Presty is doing it okay. See,
So he's good at bringing the right people around there
and leading men together.

Speaker 4 (23:37):
To be you afraid of him.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
Not at all. I'm not afraid of nothing. But God,
I was not afraid of him.

Speaker 4 (23:43):
Most guys are.

Speaker 5 (23:44):
And I challenged him a lot. I challenged him a
lot because a lot of the things he was doing.
It wasn't because I wasn't a good basketball player. He
was trying to He was trying to make me a
mature man, right, being in games and mad because I
didn't get the ball or something like that, and arguing
with my teammate that wasn't that wasn't the winning way
in San Antonio. So he was trying to raise me
as a man. I didn't understand that at the time.

(24:05):
I thought he was just being just picking on me.

Speaker 4 (24:07):
But you fired back at him enough times he finally
said that's enough.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
I had enough.

Speaker 5 (24:11):
Yeah, yeah, well, actually, you know, he didn't give me
my big contract ifter.

Speaker 2 (24:15):
Won the championship. That was his way of saying, I'm
in control. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 5 (24:18):
So things like that that'll bother you with pop. But
as a leader, I don't think you're gonna find a
better leader.

Speaker 4 (24:24):
I appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (24:26):
R C.

Speaker 4 (24:27):
Buford. You played around and under him as the GM
of that team. Yep, I'm gonna remind everybody.

Speaker 2 (24:33):
R C.

Speaker 4 (24:33):
Buford did not play basketball. He was a walk on
college football player at Oklahoma State, and he talked Larry
Brown at Kansas into letting him be a Gopher on
their basketball staff. I don't even know how that started,
but it did, and that led to one thing after another,
and he winds up in San Antonio and you can
make a case he was the greatest builder of a

(24:56):
dynasty we've ever seen. Because it's pretty easy to take
Tim Duncan, but it wasn't easy to take Tony Parker
at the end of the first round. And it was
definitely not easy to steal My Nugenobali at the bottom
of the draft, right, And it was not easy to
go steal Kawhi Leonard from Indiana for George Hill. Remember
it was basically that was the trade. It was George

(25:18):
Hill and the seventeenth pick, and you get Kawhi. Really,
you got Kawhi Leonard. That's how you build a dynasty.
So was Pop not blessed to have RC Buford?

Speaker 2 (25:30):
Right?

Speaker 4 (25:31):
Okay, so it all came together. But ever since Timmy
walked out that door, I'm not seeing a whole lot
from him. I'm not seeing special where There'll be a
night I'll be watching Wemby and I'll say, you know what,
they got something cooking here, you know, because strategically they
know how to play defense or whatever. I don't see
any defensive commitment and Wemby is still taking way too

(25:52):
many threes. He's shooting twenty three percent from three and
he's got a beautiful stroke. But it's just like to say,
work seven and four seven. I don't want him just
standing out there all the time taking eight threes a game.
He took thirteen last night at Utah and made four
of them.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
Way to go.

Speaker 5 (26:09):
But what a lot of what populack Tim Duncan picked
up on, like you said, yeah, you know what I'm saying.
At a lot of stuff like they worked hand in hand,
so you know he's It's definitely everybody knew it wasn't
gonna be the same once Tim walked out that door.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
We all knew that.

Speaker 4 (26:23):
You were in that locker room with him. Was he
not as as powerful a quiet force as there ever was?

Speaker 2 (26:30):
By far? By far?

Speaker 4 (26:32):
He ran He ran there say a whole lot you
just knew, yep.

Speaker 5 (26:35):
And he said that tone that you had, that he
demanded that respect, you know what I mean. And I
think that's why they had so much success, because if
you got that respect at the top, it's gonna trinkle
down and everybody's gonna buy in. I've been to a
lot on his organizations where you never know who the
owner is one and and everybody's not buying in. You
got coaches with their own way of doing things. You
got coaches talking behind each other back that don't happen

(26:56):
in San Antono. Everybody's buying in on the same page.
That's done when you have that much success.

Speaker 4 (27:01):
You said it, I didn't. You said not a great
basketball coach.

Speaker 5 (27:04):
Right, No, he's a great leader though, bringing but he's
not a great basketball coach's leader because he might he
comes from a military background, in my right or wrong,
I've come from so that alone. Being able to put
people in the right place and to lead guys in
like that's not easy, as you think.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
He's not ancent That's why he had.

Speaker 5 (27:22):
But that's why you see the coaches that leave from
him or email you dope. All these coaches that leave
him become great coaches on their own because there were
great coaches under him.

Speaker 2 (27:31):
You know what I'm saying. He was just leading them
and putting them in the right positions. It's a good
quality to have. Absolutely, Yeah, he's a great leader.

Speaker 4 (27:37):
Probably who was the strongest coach you played for, the
most powerful force in the locker room? Somebody you really
looked up.

Speaker 3 (27:45):
To Bill Jackson really quiet though quietly. But I only
got a year of him, and I got the end
the end of his rule.

Speaker 4 (27:53):
Which year was.

Speaker 3 (27:56):
Ten or eleven eleven, where he had cancer and he
was going to step away from the game. But the
aura of his in his presence is strong.

Speaker 2 (28:04):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (28:05):
And I came in the year they had just one
tune we were going for a three p and that
you know, hurt myself and towards the end of the playoffs.
But the trust he instilled in you, if you put
you out there, he trust you. He's not going to
be a coach. I mean, we know he's not up
there screaming and doing all kinds of ship. When he
puts the guys out there, he trusts him and he
allows you to play the mistakes and make mistakes.

Speaker 4 (28:22):
He wants you to figure it out on the court,
and he's not a time out.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:26):
Yeah, So I really, I really, you know, And I
got a chance to play for you know, a lot
of good coaches, but I think Phil is the one
that jumps to the top as far as because I'm
really mental too, you know, I love the mental side
of it. Yeah, absolutely. When I tore my knee. He
was calling me after the games like would you see
out there? And I'm like, what the fuck?

Speaker 2 (28:43):
Who was this again? Is my coachs?

Speaker 3 (28:44):
Give me what I saw with Kobe and Big Drew
and pas So, yeah, it was interesting.

Speaker 4 (28:49):
Well, because he respected your acumen, you view your knowledge,
your eyes. Yeah, So did you ever challenge him?

Speaker 2 (28:59):
I didn't need.

Speaker 3 (28:59):
There was there was no need to. All right, the interview,
I'll just say no, I'll say the reason why I
never there was. There was never need because the way
he talked to Cod set the tone. He wasn't going
for cod ship, and Cod wasn't going for his ship.
But the fact that he could say that the Cod
made everyone else just like, well shit, if he's gonna

(29:19):
say that.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
The cold with the fuck that we had.

Speaker 3 (29:21):
Was king in a book before the before Yeah, but
in person and way, him and Ronalds used to go
at each other.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
Oh my god, they were talking real ship.

Speaker 3 (29:30):
Ron started talking about Phil's feet one time, how fucked
up they were, and we lost.

Speaker 5 (29:36):
Well two thousand and seven. What what did you see
in Steven ad to give him a shot?

Speaker 4 (29:42):
Okay, we go way back before that. Okay, first time
I laid eyes on. Stephen A. Smith was at the
United Center, the house that Michael built nineteen ninety eight.
I'm at the Chicago Tribune covering the Bulls. Philly was
in town. Steve and I was covering Larry Brown's team

(30:02):
at that point, I think it was covering the sixers
for the Philadelphia Choir. And he came in the media
room before the game and he was suited and booted,
coat and tie. Sports writers didn't wear coats and ties,
and I was impressed because he was trying to send
a message. I'm legit. I take this very seriously. I'm

(30:23):
here to do a job and I'm dressing appropriately. He
later told me that Larry Brown was the one who suggested, well,
why don't you do because I'm gonna wear a coat
and tie, you should wear one too. And Steve and
I didn't have coats and ties, and Larry, I think,
hooked him up at a mall, at a shop and
a mall where he had some discount or something so

(30:43):
that Steven A could go buy enough suits to last
through a road trip. So that impressed me. Then probably
two thousand, we're here in La now, but there was
a network pre fs one on that same Fox lot
not too far from here called Fox Sports Net, and

(31:05):
Jim Rome had an afternoon show, a TV show called
The Last Word, and I don't know how this happened,
but faithfully we got paired on a show with Jim
as the wingman. So Jim would sit in the middle,
Steven over here, I'm over here. He would. Jim would
throw up a topic and we'd start going at it,

(31:27):
and right away I just liked him, and we clicked
and connected off camera because he started to a respect
me and be trust me in ways that me coming
from Oklahoma City and him coming from Queens was a
billion to one shot. But we just clicked and we

(31:49):
were both We had newspaper hearts, sportswriter hearts, so we'd
come from the same business, and he respected my ability
to write, and I definitely respected his bill report. And
all of a sudden, Jim Rowl was saying, it's like
watching a tennis match where he's just his head's just
on a swivel, boom boom boom, and Steven A would

(32:10):
let me go hard at him. And he's got a
huge ego, bigger than my ego, which I love about
him because that's who he is and what he is
that makes him Stephen A. Smith. I love that he
called himself Stephen A.

Speaker 2 (32:24):
Smith.

Speaker 4 (32:24):
That was just a cool name to me because Steve Smith,
you know, it's not that great. We know some Steve
Smith and it's okay, but but you're not going to
be quite as big unless you're Steven A Smith.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
Right.

Speaker 4 (32:35):
Smart branding, It was brilliant branding. But I could go
hard at him in ways that there's no way he's
going to let anybody else go at him on camera
on air because he knew in the end I still
had his back, and we can go hard about a
basketball topic because that was his forte. I'm football, basketball, whatever,

(32:56):
but it's mostly basketball and it would be explosively great
to watch. And we both knew it. And it wasn't
like it was contrived.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
It was real.

Speaker 4 (33:08):
It was natural. We just naturally disagreed on just about everything.
So Jim got a contract Snapfoo and left, and they
wanted us to replace Jim with the show PTI had
just launched. It was maybe three or four months old
obviously on ESPN, so they wanted a PTI esque show

(33:29):
with edge. That's how they proposed us with Edge and
a producer is still a close friend of mine and
Steve and A's name, John Johnston, came up with the
title sports in black and White. This is two thousand
and two, so we're way ahead of our sort of time.
And we did a pilot and we did sort of

(33:50):
PTI ED two. Yeah, just the two of us going
back and forth with a guest that we brought in
just for the pilot, Raymond Sini, the boxer. George Green
ran the network, came flying out of the control room
when we finished and said I could put this on
the air tonight. Okay, so we're starting to talk to
John about moving to LA and we're going to launch this.

(34:12):
This is a long time ago. This is twenty two
years ago, so this would have changed history and it
ran up the flagpole to the top. And I'm not
going to name names, but somebody way upstairs said no
to Steven A because he was just too edgy for
them at that point. And I'm like, he's not edgy,
it's just he's a showman. He's people don't take it

(34:36):
that seriously, that like they're not going to overreact to it,
that they'll love it, because that's what you want, you
want this kind of edge. I'm edgier than he is
to all the questions you asked me, because steven A
doesn't take it quite as seriously as I do. But
we're a great click. Okay, So I'm so we got
left at the altar on that one. So when I

(34:58):
got to ESPN Pizza, we started to overlap he was
doing quite frankly. We're both based in New York, so
we would be on each other's shows. And then his
plug got pulled and then they took us up to
Bristol and rebranded us first take. We had about a
three or four year run where steven A got pushed
out the back door in Bristol. I mean, they did

(35:20):
not renew him, and I don't know, you have to
ask him the real backstory. But he came out here
to Fox Sports Radio and he was here for two years.
And you can ask my wife about this. He would
call me every day and say can you get me
back on the Worldwide Leader? And I would beat on

(35:42):
every door in that building. You can ask them all
if I didn't just keep saying, what are we doing?
This is ridiculous. He's gifted. He's a force. We got
to get him back here, and finally, I think it
took two years. They imposed their will on him, you know,
because he was too full of himself, I guess, and

(36:02):
made him sort of crawl back, if you will, and
they let him ease back in on New York Radio
and writing for New York ESPN dot com. I was
just ashamed of it, but I kept fighting because then
I was going solo on first take with a rotation
of guest debaters. We had all kinds of people coming in,

(36:23):
Jamel Hill, Michael Smith and two live stews, and Chris
Brusard was in the mix, and we had all kinds
of different people coming in. And we had a run
in the t Bow season, which was twenty eleven, where
we just were just rating through the roof. But at
the end of that season, I told Jamie Horowitz, who

(36:43):
was our showrunner, they would let us have Steven A
once a week for one segment at the top of
the second hour, and that was it, because he was
still being punished or whatever. And I said, just get
me him. The rotation's fine, and our ratings were great,
but I need him daily where I could wake up
thinking I got him, because that's where you don't lose

(37:07):
any sleep because I got a new you know, a
new opponent so to speak. The next day, I wonder
how he's going to be. I wonder what this is
going to be. We got a whole new dynamic tomorrow,
wonder how that's going to work. I wanted to be
able to sleep peacefully because I had my man back.
So to your question, that that's how we fought through
that and finally got him back full time. And the

(37:30):
rest is his year.

Speaker 3 (37:31):
What year did you guys reconnect and finally back full time?

Speaker 4 (37:34):
Twenty eleven he became at the very end. It was
like we were. I went to the Super Bowl. It
was the Brady It was in Indianapolis, the Brady Giant
second Super Bowl. So it was right in that week.
That was the first time he came back on full
time and we launched, re relaunched.

Speaker 5 (37:55):
Even I said this, Who knows why I'd be if
SKIP didn't put me on first take.

Speaker 4 (38:00):
I don't know. I just still I look back at
that time, you push him out the back door. No, seriously,
like it's it's the dumbest thing ESPN has ever done
in the history of ESPN. I know some dumb things
have happened. That was dumb.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
They making up for it. Now they taking care of
him now.

Speaker 4 (38:15):
Okay, well good, he deserves it. He's worth every penny of.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
Money. Right, he'll get it.

Speaker 5 (38:23):
Good friend, What do you have to say about people
feel like first take debate and hot take format was
bad for sports media.

Speaker 4 (38:30):
I don't have any respect for that. As stephen A
would say, they can all kick rocks. Okay, so I
know we spawned a million imitators, but I already explained
to you what we had. You want to talk about
rare chemistry. I can't make it up, coach it. I

(38:51):
can't teach it. I can say thank you God for it.
And that's all I can say, thank you God because
we connected and they all tried and failed whatever. Because
if you don't know how to do it, or you
don't have any rapport with your debate partner, it will
flop miserably and it'll be hard to watch, and it

(39:12):
will be contrived and tricked up, and you have to
have natural disagreement or it won't work. Because I'm not
sure stephen A really really disagreed with a lot of
what I said. He just it just pissed him off
that I would saying, you know, we're just it would
just as he would say, you get on my last nerve,

(39:35):
you know, and I would get on his last nerve
and we'd be off to the races. He as opposed
to Shannon. It was very different than Shannon our chemistry
because stephen A would always say you go first, you
go first, because he wants to do this.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
He would be character back.

Speaker 4 (39:54):
And listen to me because he knows I'm going to
prep harder than him. I got the photograph memory. So
he's like, just spew, just go ahead and just just
regurgitate all over the table, you know, just vomit everywhere,
throw all your stuff out. And he would sit back,
classically greatest gift of gab I ever experienced, arms folded

(40:16):
and say wait a second, did you just say so
and so and so and so? And I'd say, yeah,
I did what of it?

Speaker 2 (40:26):
And oh we go?

Speaker 4 (40:27):
But he would pick a little like part C of
my ABC argument and jump all over it. And the
control room is saying, what the hell are they doing?
Because we've left the topic way behind and we're going
way over here and magic is happening. Okay, I can't.
I can't teach your coach.

Speaker 3 (40:48):
That you were able to catch lightning in a bottle twice?
The magic ew and Shannon had How did how did
that partnership beautiful come apart or come together?

Speaker 4 (40:58):
On Undisputed? I needed a new partner, and faithfully and fortunately,
near the end of my run with steven A, there
was a week in which steven I had to go
do something somewhere. He was always gallivant and all around
the country doing whatever he did, being steven A Smith.
And we tried Shannon Sharp, I think for three days,

(41:20):
and I really liked him in a very different way
than I loved steven A. But I liked our click
and it was a whole different dynamic because he's out
a year mold. Obviously he's in the Hall of Fame.
So now we had ex player. We didn't have journalist journalists.
We have X player journalist. We both are fitness obsessed,
so we had that in common, and he right away

(41:42):
respected me because I'm like a workout addict. I just
like it. I'm sorry, I apologize for it, but I'm crazed,
but I just do it because I like it. And
so to see, and he used to say to me,
we're way more alike than people think, and I believe
that's true. I'm coming out here because Jamie Horowitz, do
you guys know? Okay, So Jamie's here and they're struggling

(42:06):
and they're going to try to relaunch this FS one
and Jamie's point to me was, I just need you
to come here or we're not gonna make it. And
he had given me a start. Remember when we first
went up to Bristol, when it was still kind of
cold pizza ish. We had four segments a show, but
it was still that show they tried to launch in
New York in two thousand and four, which was a

(42:27):
bad idea, but it was the idea of kind of
a GMA Good Morning America of sports, where it's loosely
based on sports, but we'll have these four debate segments
to spice it up and bring back the sports fans.
And what we found and when we got to Bristol
was the only thing that rated, and the whole show
where we'd have four spikes of show, because that's all

(42:48):
anybody cared about was the debate. They didn't care about
the pat segments and the ballpark food segments. And the
cigar segments and all those segments. Nobody cared about that.
Jamie was the one who took over a year before
steven A joined full time. And Jamie said, how with
all this, I'm gonna blow out what's left to cole

(43:09):
Pizza and we're gonna go all debate for two It's
a two hour show, obviously there, We're gonna go all
debate for two full hours. And a lot of people
in the hallways stopped me and said, this is career
suicide for you and for Jamie. It'll never work. And
the rest is history. So Jamie then came round about
he went to the Today Show, then he wound up here.
So I felt like he gave me that show. He

(43:32):
blew it out and sort of rebuilt it around me
in the two hours of full time debate. So it
was up to us to select should we do a
rotation like we did in the beginning. We thought about it,
and I pushed hard for Shannon because he works hard,
he prepares hard, and he shows up for work on

(43:54):
time and love to compete with me. Well, I can't
make that up. Maybe it's not as many magical is
the steven A kind of chemistry. But from day one
it flew and it took off. And to your point,
I appreciate that I got blessed twice because we took off.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
Yeah, I don't.

Speaker 3 (44:12):
I mean, I don't know the numbers at the time
would First Take and undisputed, But I would say from
just a fan perspective, you guys were right there, if
not above.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
Like I said, I don't know the numbers.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
But the chemistry you and Shannon had kind of overshadowed
whatever stephen A was doing on ESPN.

Speaker 4 (44:29):
I'll remind you when I left, First Take was still
on ESPN two, which has maybe a fifth of the
eyeballs that regular ESPN has, And as soon as we
launched here took a month, they moved from it. They
moved the show up to the big eyeballs to protect

(44:50):
it because we were going to catch it and pass it.

Speaker 3 (44:53):
Absolutely obviously great chemistry and Shannon had a great run.
Any regrets on how that partnership ended. Yeah, for the show,
and then he regrets on how the relationship ended.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
And what did you think about the character, the Uncle
Shay Shake character.

Speaker 5 (45:08):
He didn't come on, He didn't come on the show
doing that with the black and mind the do raging,
hennisy and all that.

Speaker 4 (45:12):
Stuff when he first started it.

Speaker 5 (45:14):
Yeah, he didn't come on with that at first when
he first got on the show. So when all that
came about, what you think about that.

Speaker 4 (45:19):
Too, Okay, it's better for you guys to respond to
that than me. But I was still very close with
steven A at that point. He did not love.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
It, no, yeah, okay, and I defer to you nobody did.

Speaker 4 (45:33):
But you know what you talk about branding, you talk
about stephen A. Smith to be uncle was big for
Uncle Shannon, and out of that which which he I
think it went away.

Speaker 2 (45:46):
I don't.

Speaker 4 (45:46):
I don't remember him doing it much over the last
couple of years. I don't think he ever did it.
But whatever unk stayed, Shaya stayed, so it ended up
being positive for him. It made me pretty uncomfortable from
my seat. But look, yeah, you ask about regret, I

(46:10):
just have one huge regret. We weren't nearly as close
as steven A and I were close, but I just
wanted us to finish together on time. Because over the
last year or so, I would watch what you guys
have done here, I would watch what happens to me

(46:30):
on Twitter now X. I would watch what happens to
my videos and I'd say, the audience is starting to
erode on lenear what they call linear TV shows. It's here.
You guys were ahead of that curve and then right
on time on that curve, and now I want to
chase you guys. You know I want to do this

(46:51):
because I saw it for about a year. But I
wanted Shannon and I because I saw his podcast was
starting to take hold when he was at Fox. I
wanted us to finish together. And I don't know, as
God is my witness, I'm not exactly sure what happened upstairs,
but it fell all apart and he got pushed out

(47:14):
and I was blindsided and dumbfounded by that, and I
don't like it to this day. And I'm not a
regrets type. I don't look back and say, oh, if only,
But that was one where it was just wrong. I
didn't That's not how I envisioned because our contracts were concurrent,
so I knew when mine was up, I wanted to

(47:36):
go my separate way, but I wanted us to end
the way it should have ended, because man, we had
seven really good years. We had on just pure ratings.
We had about five through the roof years, and that
matters to me. You guys like like you guys, I
don't know if you ever have any spats or anything,

(47:57):
or you disagree on things or whatever, but your link
for life.

Speaker 2 (48:00):
Now their respect doesn't change though respect.

Speaker 4 (48:05):
But you're linked for life because you've been in this
foxhole together and you've had all kinds of guests on
here and yet calmly here it's big and you will
look back. I don't God only knows where it's going
to take all of us in the next twenty years.
But twenty years, if God is good and you're still moving,
you'll look back if you're not doing this anymore, and

(48:27):
you'll have a deep connection and a deep connection. Okay,
That's how I feel about steven A and Shannon. We
went to I don't want to say war. We went
to battle together every day. And listen, Shannon, you're showed
up for work man. He he came. He's extremely competitive
and I am crazy competitive, and so we went at

(48:49):
it in different authentic ways than steven A and I
did because steven A he takes it seriously. But their
showmanship involved with steven A, that is fun to watch
with Shannon, and I trust me, it got seriously you
sat out there.

Speaker 5 (49:07):
I've watched you prepare for a show Skip and my boy, say,
you right there. It is intense watching skill prepared for
a show, Like it's just as intense to get ready
for a basketball game.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
Bro, it's the super intense.

Speaker 4 (49:18):
Well that's my basketball?

Speaker 2 (49:19):
Was it? Thank you? Did it ever?

Speaker 3 (49:21):
Because, like I said, sometimes you got into some heated
debates with did it ever feel personal? Did you ever
knalk away from the desk and like, damn that hurt
a little bit? Or no?

Speaker 2 (49:29):
Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have say.

Speaker 4 (49:31):
I told him from day one. Yeah, I prep hard,
I'm intense, I'm over intense, But as soon as that
little red light goes off, I let it go. Man,
and I never take it home. And if if you do,
you tell me about it and let's sort it out.
And we had some sit down so we would sort
things out. But he knew early on I always had

(49:55):
his back and that there's no need to do like
I was say on first take, my slogan was no
punch is pulled, but none thrown. You can't get to
the point where you want to throw. Come on, you
you know, like then nobody wants to watch that, but
they like genuine heat, and Shannon and I produced genuine heat,

(50:18):
and I truly love him for that. Like those are
magical moments to me where I look back. We got
into one time about Tom Brady. I didn't even know
where it went. It just flew off the handle. And
we did have to have a sit down after that one,
and we hugged, you know, like it's it's okay. But
I think back on yes, because I remember that one

(50:41):
because because now we're getting to punch is thrown right,
like okay, And by the way, if he threw one
punch at me, that'd be the end of me. Yeah, okay.
So I'm still not sure how it went there because
this stuff is so unscripted. You you're in the middle

(51:02):
of it, like there's there's kind of a quasi plan,
you know, we kind of know what the top the
topical question is, but then it just goes off over here.
You guys just riff off each other. I don't know,
you can't half the stuff that's happened so far in
the show. You couldn't have planned, right, because we're just
vibing off each other and with Shannon. I'm vibing and

(51:24):
it's going here, and you asked me, is it personal
between you and lebron or Westbrook? After a while, I'm thinking,
is it personal between Shannon and Brady? Because he just
hated Tom Brady to me and it got vitriolic, you
know where it started to get nasty angry on the air,
and I'm saying and I like, I don't know Bray,

(51:45):
I never met him before, but he's really good, you know,
like he was, he was really good at what he did.
I think it drove Shann crazy. He's playing a position
it's not even like a football position, like it's they
protect him. So so all these guys, they're playing football
and you can really get hurt doing all these other
things except kicker or punter. But all these guys are

(52:06):
doing this and they're running into each other the way
humans should never run into each other. And here's this
guy called the quarterback and all the rules protect him.
He can slide if he wants to, and nobody can
touch him. And Tom Brady's just standing back there patent football,
just throwing deadly accurate passes and just surgically carving people

(52:28):
up at won him seven Super Bowl. I think he
should have won eight Super Bowls out of the tea.
And he played in Shanon's in the Hall of Fame obviously,
and I think there was some resentment of how can
he be this great because he's not all that athletic
and he can't run a lick, right, He can just
speed read, process poison under fire. He took some shots.

(52:50):
He would get hit occasionally, but in the end, it's
like Wayne Gretzky and hockey. He's just playing this game
above everybody else, and it's all finesse, you know, he's
he's just operating on a higher plane than all these
hockey goons down here running into each other. So was Brady, Well,
I'm defending Brady, and Shannon went crazy, and then at

(53:13):
some point he's suggesting he's as good as Tom Brady,
or was as good as Tom Brady. At that point still.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Was He did not say that. Huh. He did not say,
well he did.

Speaker 5 (53:24):
That's how I interpreted, Oh yeah, I would have been
mad to put your glasses back on you say some
shit like that.

Speaker 6 (53:30):
Okay, I'm like Shannon, and I told him on the air,
I said, this guy's in another echelon from everybody else
who ever played, there's never been anything like this guy
what he achieved.

Speaker 4 (53:43):
And Shannon said, I'm in the hall. I said, I
got it. And then he's really mad and he takes
his class off. Okay, what are we gonna do? Fight?
Because now you got me? You know, like, I can't
win that one. But let's just cease and desist and
let's go on to the next topic. Because that's what
that's as close as we ever got to eruption explosions.

Speaker 5 (54:04):
If you do an our cardio every day, you got
you got good footwell you can move.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
Shan hips bad.

Speaker 5 (54:09):
He can't move. He just top heavy. But have you
ever seen he just topped. He can't move, He just
top head our cardio.

Speaker 2 (54:20):
He can move. You can stick and move.

Speaker 4 (54:22):
Okay, he couldn't catch me. I know he couldn't catch it,
but that m F is strong.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
Rip. He's a big, big.

Speaker 4 (54:36):
Boy and works hard at being a big boy, and
it's just hard to Okay, I can't compete with that.
But it's funny. Right before we launched, he's would send
me videos. He sent me a video of him and
spin class. So he's on the bike just just killing it,
you know, and just dripping, I mean like dripping wet,

(54:57):
and caption is I'm gonna kick your ass like he's
telling me, I'm going to kick your ass. And I
showed my wife, Ernstine, I said, I do this every day.
What really, I'm not I'm not at all intimidated by that.
So I laughed when I saw him. You're not gonna

(55:18):
get me that way.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
Get me on TV.

Speaker 4 (55:20):
You got me. You can't give me that one.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
There you go.

Speaker 4 (55:22):
So I don't know I could. Maybe I could land
a little jab.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
Here or something. Don't let Jack get you.

Speaker 5 (55:39):
Let's go back early bringing, early up bringing, Oklahoma City. Yeah,
I'm my dad owned a ran a barbecue spot. Yep,
you're a big barbecue guy. The Hickory House.

Speaker 4 (55:47):
Never ate it after I was forced to all the
way through high school, never touched it. After that. I
had my feel and I can't even look at ribs anymore.
And I got nothing against them, but I grew up
on them, seriously grew up on them. I got forced
to work in that little hole in the wall barbecue
place on the south side of Oakland City, which is
the wrong side of town. It's tough side every summer,

(56:12):
every Christmas break, every spring break, no questions asked. I'm
working at the restaurant. I hated the restaurant. I have
a brother two years younger who loved the restaurant, and
he became a big chef in a restaurant tour in
Chicago and won the James Beard Award for Best Restaurant
in America and Best Chef in America Obama. It's his

(56:32):
favorite restaurant in Chicago called Topolobampo Room. So my brother
literally ate it up being in the restaurant, and I
despised it because I was sports obsessed, and nobody in
my family liked sports, so they couldn't understand why I
wanted to play football, basketball, baseball. And my father, who
never liked me and was a hardcore alcoholic, said you're

(56:57):
going to learn this so you'll have something to do
with your life. And so I'm forced to do crap
I don't like, which is preparation work, cutting up green
peppers to put in a potato salad, and then every
lunch and dinner rush I had to clean off the tables.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
Busboy.

Speaker 4 (57:13):
It's some nasty business when you're cleaning up after people,
because everybody smoked, so it's just smoking ashes and butts,
and it's disgusting. And if you do that for a
two hour lunch and then he says, take your lunch,
you're not going to be real keen on eating anything,
trust me, you know, especially barbecue. So after a while,

(57:37):
and they did a good job, and they did. It
would come and go. Sometimes we'd have a little money,
and sometimes we'd be busted because that's the restaurant business.
But that was my life.

Speaker 5 (57:47):
You still talking about your dad being an alcoholic, complicated
relationship with your mother with any alcoholic, and you talk
about that a little bit.

Speaker 4 (57:54):
They both had alcohol issues very differently. My father was
a functional alcoholic. He could wake up in the morning.
I saw this every morning. He would march to the
kitchen and he would pour himself a vodka and orange
juice and just gulp it. And then when we were
coming home, if I worked the lunch and dinner, I'd

(58:18):
have to ride home with him. I had no choice.
I don't know, you know, nobody wore seat belts. I
don't know how we made it. But functional alcoholic. He
would also take always take a big cup, just a
soft cup, fill it with half Coca Cola, and then
we'd go to the car and he'd pull the vodka
from under the seat and Phil, it is a big

(58:39):
gold and he's drinking this via straw all the way home.
And I'm not even thinking. I don't know enough to
know you're driving drunk. But he seemed to be able
to function. Mom slowly fell to the bottom of the bottle.
But she was a fall down drunk where when she
got drunk, she got silly, sappy, lovy, crazy, can't function drunk.

(59:06):
And so I'm the oldest and I'm dealing with two
of them. He left when I was sixteen, ran off
with the woman three doors down who is my mom's
best friend. They eloped to Tulsa, up the road from
Oklahoma City, and I was kind of left running the household.
But it was just tough on me because I was
the first coming.

Speaker 2 (59:25):
Up in it.

Speaker 4 (59:26):
You have to figure it out, you guys know what
you have to figure it out. You have to figure
you know, how do you do this? How do you survive?
How do you do this? Because I got no guidance.
The other the good part was I had no rules,
I had no curfew, I had no guidance. I could
do anything I wanted. And the weird part was when

(59:47):
I turned fourteen, my mother made my father buy me
a motorcycle. And they weren't expensive. It's a hon to ninety,
their tiniest, like a sewing machine engine and it'd go
like forty miles an hour. But she just said, I
don't want to take him anywhere anymore. He wants to
go to all these practices and all this stuff. Just kidding,
even just get him out of my hair, Just give

(01:00:08):
him the motorcycle. So I go down on my fourteenth birthday.
I aced the test, made a hundred on the written test,
and he takes me right to the Honda shop and
I'm off to the races. And it's December the fourth
and it's cold. I got a church league basketball game
and I literally strapped onto the banana seat my back,
my basketball bag and it's freezing cold, and I'm going

(01:00:31):
to First Christian Church to the gym to play basketball.
And I was free man. And so that was fun
where I could do whatever I wanted. But the problem
with it is you can't trust anybody at home. That's
the problem.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
Yeah, somewhat similar, I bring my parents were functioning drug addicts,
and I saw a lot of abuse and violence and
times where we had no money, and times we fell
out we had a little bit of money.

Speaker 4 (01:00:55):
What your dad do.

Speaker 3 (01:00:57):
My dad was a butcher by day and sold drugs
by night, and my mom was a stay at home mom.

Speaker 4 (01:01:01):
That did he do well selling?

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
He did?

Speaker 3 (01:01:04):
He did well enough to make ends me. I wouldn't
say well, but well enough. But you know my mom
that was I was born in the eighties. That was
a cocaine phase and era and a lot of different things.
So I just saw a lot at a young age.
Where were you in I'm the oldest of three. Yeah,
until three years ago I found out I have two
older brothers.

Speaker 5 (01:01:24):
Everybody in the eighties, everybody was doing nobody.

Speaker 3 (01:01:31):
But I say all that to say, I mean, I
read when I was going through your stuff that you know,
and I was wondering if that was the reason you're
tough upbringing? Was that the reason why you chose not
to have children? But me, before you answered on the
flip side, I think I saw a lot. My mom
was super mom, and my dad and my relationship are
great now. My mom passed in those seven and I
felt like when I lost my mom, I gained the

(01:01:51):
dad and now we're great and he's a great grandpa
grand key.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
He did start to keep it. It's in his DNA wrestler.

Speaker 3 (01:02:00):
I never fucked with heavy drugs, but I saw that
to say, like, I saw a lot of not what
to do for my dad. My dad had Now that
we're closer, and he told me his upbringing and I
understand he didn't know how to love. Was no examples
of loving. I wanted to beat the greatest father ever
because I didn't feel like I had a dad there.
Although he was there every single day, I just didn't

(01:02:20):
feel like I had that connection with them.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
What was your reason for choosing not to have children.

Speaker 4 (01:02:26):
I didn't want to turn into him, and I was
afraid I would because I got his genetics. And he
tried rehab twice because he was a veteran of the
Air Force, so he went to VA Hospital to meet
with psychiatrists twice, and the first time female psychiatrists asked
me as the oldest, do you drink alcohol? I was
thirteen inch maybe no, no, because he had forced me

(01:02:51):
to drink alcohol when I was like four five and six.
When they would throw parties at home for their little clique,
and their party trick was to get their oldest son
to come in and they would give them and give
me hard something bourbon, you know, because it's just bitter.
I mean, it's it's foul. It's like castor oil taste
to me. So I would sip it and spit it

(01:03:11):
out and they would all laugh. It didn't bother me
at all, but it actually saved me because I'm thinking,
I don't what do you want that for? You put
that in your mouth. That's disgusting. So she said to
me that day, you're doubly predisposed. You've got double alcohol
genes in you, alcoholic jeens, so you better be careful,

(01:03:33):
you better not start. So you say, why do you
do an hour of cardio? Because I've channeled all that today.
Whatever that obsession, compulsory behavior, obsessive, compulsive, it all goes
into this. So at least it's a positive addiction. Or
I'm probably I could go right down your dad's path
to my mom's path.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
How instrumental.

Speaker 3 (01:03:55):
As someone myself again, and we all probably had our
own versions of childhood trauma. At my age of forty four, Now,
you know, seek counseling, and my fiance is very instrumental
on me kind of unpacking my childhood and learning how
to not be a man because I feel like I've
been a man for a long time.

Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
Just deal with shit different.

Speaker 3 (01:04:15):
Yeah, if you don't mind me asking how you know
obviously instrumental.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
Has your wife been in that process for you?

Speaker 3 (01:04:21):
And do you seek outside help to kind of deal
with some of the older shit or what is your
way of kind of dealing with it?

Speaker 4 (01:04:28):
Sometimes she says maybe you should, maybe you should. I don't.
I feel like I'm good with it so that I've
worked through it. I have to point this out and
you guys can laugh at me if you want, But
my saving grace in my life, what centered me and
saved me, was a black woman named Katie Bell Henderson.

(01:04:51):
And the reason I hate to bring it up is
because you guys probably dismiss it as, oh, it's like
the help or it's plantation mentality. Trust me, wasn't. She
worked for my grandmother, who was not a wealthy woman,
but she traveled for her work. So Katie Bell ran
her household for by day because she wasn't there a lot.

(01:05:12):
So because my home life was such a wreck. I
got left at my grandmother's a whole lot more than
I wanted to get left at my grandmother's And because
of that. Katie Bell Henderson a black woman born in
near Birmingham, Alabama, but raised on the South side of Chicago.
So she was Chicago tough. She she wasn't deep South.

(01:05:34):
She was she was more Chicago and you know Chicago,
both of you do, okay. So she saw what was happening,
and she was she was my mother, you know, she
just took over and like five six, seven, eight, nine, ten,

(01:05:55):
all in there in my formative form year right in there,
it's Katie Bell taking over my life. She's my role model,
she's my guidance counselor. And she was hard on me.
She was not afraid. It wasn't like she's playing like

(01:06:16):
the old black lady, you know, like that's that's not
how it was. She would treat me by the shoulders
and shake me. She taught me the word hypocrite when
I was seven years old, which I did not know.
She said, you're being a hypocrite. Shake me.

Speaker 5 (01:06:30):
No.

Speaker 4 (01:06:30):
She would tell me the evils of alcohol. You can't
start just look look, look what scorn was all.

Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
Through my family.

Speaker 4 (01:06:36):
I'm from extended family. Don't start just don't don't. And
she taught me right and wrong, and I have good
right and wrong in me. I have decent character. And
it all came from that woman. I'm telling you, as
God is my witness, I would not be the same.
I would not be stable without what she brought into
my life when it really mattered, and it also helped me.

(01:07:01):
She had a granddaughter named Audrey who would come every
summer and stay with her for three months of the
summer from Chicago. So I got left over there. And
so now I'm six seven and eight and I'm making
up games in the backyard with Audrey, my age from
the South side of Chicago. You want to talk about education,
because Oklahoma City was still segregated, but it's not deep South.

(01:07:23):
It doesn't feel like like wrong band, you know, like
it's that's not the sort of the mood of the city.
And so for me, even though it was segregated, I
got to interact with this black girl from from Chicago.
This is gold Man because I'm getting it, I'm feeling it.
And the main thing Katie Bill taught me was we're

(01:07:45):
all the same. We're pieces of God, every one of us.
You're that callor you're that color, I'm this colle okay,
pieces of God. And if he was okay, yeah, okay, okay,
it's okay, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
All right.

Speaker 4 (01:08:05):
So the final piece to my puzzle was my wife, Earnsteine,
sitting across from us. Five years ago. She had a
what do you call him? A shaman mystic uh okay,
named Joseph, a black man from New Orleans living in
New York City that she had connected with, and he

(01:08:27):
really enlightened her over the phone. He could see things
in her life that that she was blown away by.
So she said, just try it. I said, I don't
buy it. I'm not I'm not there. She said, just
just open your mind up a little bit. This isn't
like therapy. Just just see what he has to say
about your life and times. Maybe he'll give you just

(01:08:50):
a tidbit that that will really open you up somehow.
So I get on with Joseph. I don't know, it's
kind of awkward. How do we start?

Speaker 2 (01:08:58):
What do we do?

Speaker 4 (01:08:59):
He said, as well, tell me what you want to
know from me? I said, really nothing. So we're just
going back and forth and it's not it's not cool.
And all of a sudden, Joseph says, and there's no
way he could know any of this. He says, somebody
wants to join us, and I'm like, stop, you know
somebody wants to join us. And he said, yeah, it's

(01:09:20):
a woman. And my first flash is it's my mom.
If you're buying into this what we're doing, and I don't.
I don't want to communicate with my mom.

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):
I'm good.

Speaker 4 (01:09:29):
I put that dressed into bed. God bless her, you know,
like I made peace with that. I don't need to
redo all that. And he says, it's a black woman.
And I'm like what, because I you know, we lost
Katy Bill when I was in college, so it's been
a long time, you know since I really thought. I mean,

(01:09:51):
she's in my heart, but I don't think about her
on a daily basis. I said, Katie Bill. He says, yeah,
Katie Bell. And she wants you to know how proud
she is of you. That's the God's truth. She wants
you to know how proud she is of you. Well,
I just I got tears in my eyes because of

(01:10:12):
all the things that have ever happened in my whole life.
Nothing from my father, my mother, even from Ernestine, my wife,
nothing could mean as much as me being told whether
you buy this or not, but but it rang true
at the moment, she wants you to know how proud
she is of you. And I don't think Joseph could
have had any idea because my wife barely knows about

(01:10:35):
Katie Bell and all the details of it, so it's
not like she could prep him tee him up for this.

Speaker 2 (01:10:41):
That was the spirits, Yeah, it was.

Speaker 4 (01:10:44):
It was spiritual. It came from somewhere else, so that
when you say, do I need therapy? I got Katie
Bell in my heart. And you can laugh if you want,
but that's the God's truth.

Speaker 3 (01:10:55):
Thank you for sharing, h I mean, obviously that was
very personal. I appreciate you opening up and sharing that
with us.

Speaker 5 (01:11:00):
After college, you quickly became a star journalist Dallas Morning
News columnists the twenty six years old.

Speaker 2 (01:11:06):
What are your best memories of covering the game as
a younger man.

Speaker 4 (01:11:09):
I had so many good ones. I've been so blessed. Well,
you and I share something, mister Jackson, A misguided love
for the Dallas Cowboys.

Speaker 2 (01:11:20):
Yes, and it's not misgott it.

Speaker 5 (01:11:22):
You know, you know it's very misguid It's not misguided.

Speaker 2 (01:11:26):
We want a championship more recent than y'all. But we've
been there enough. We sniffed it. Y'all been there, but
y'all lost. Y'all have we kind of losses?

Speaker 5 (01:11:34):
Now? Are we doing that again? Yeah, we want a
championship more recent than y'all. Fact of fiction, facts, but
y'all still suck. But go ahead, skip. It's not about
I don't like the facts though. They don't like the
facts though.

Speaker 4 (01:11:47):
Hey, I'm being interviewed here, Thank you, thank you. It
was like a god thing. I wind up as the
lead columnists of the Dallas Morning News right on time
for what was actually the beginning of the end of
the Landry Dynasty, and I got to live inside it.

(01:12:09):
I got to know Roger Staubat really well. And those
teams had huge star power, Tony dor Set, Charlie Waters
and Cliff Harris. I don't know, if it goes back
a little before your time, you're kind of being molded
as a cowboy, die hard. I went to my first

(01:12:29):
game when I was ten. My uncle in Dallas took
me to the Old Cotton Bowlt to see the Cowboys
play a team that was my favorite team at the
time because it was the only team we could get
on television in Oklahoma City was the then Saint Louis Cardinals.
They were a high flying, offensive juggernaut, and so I
wanted to see them play this Cowboy expansion team. And

(01:12:50):
of course I sit in my seat and within five
minutes I'm looking down at those stars. They had them
on the helmet and on the shoulder pads, and I'm saying, love,
I want me some of that, right, And then you're
just you're lost.

Speaker 2 (01:13:02):
You who's the first player you fell in love?

Speaker 5 (01:13:04):
First Cowboy player that you attached the Cowboys today you
fell in love with?

Speaker 2 (01:13:07):
Mine? Was Bill Bates?

Speaker 4 (01:13:09):
Really, Yes, I'm interesting. I knew him.

Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
He was an animal.

Speaker 4 (01:13:12):
Well, he's just crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
Flying down the field. Yeah, that was my guy. Bill
Bates is my guy.

Speaker 4 (01:13:17):
Okay, Well Starbach was my guy just because listen, I
know he's before most of the times of the people
who are watching our show right now, But Roger Stabach
was it. He was beyond Aikman, beyond Don Meredith. He
was the ultimate competitor. And speaking of basketball, later after

(01:13:39):
he retired back in my twenties. I played with and
against him a lot of basketball, and he was completely
psycho as a basketball really like like crazy, competitive, was
like scary crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:13:51):
Like a good crazy. I don't know, he wasn't good,
he was just.

Speaker 4 (01:13:57):
I had a friend. You won't know this guy named
pat too May. He's a great rid played for the
Cowboys as a defensive end. He was really good. It's
before your time, but he was. He was a good
basketball player and he's six six. So we used to
play Roger two on two with a guy from his work.
He just easing into his real estate career at that point,

(01:14:18):
and one day we just beat the hell out of
him because Patick comes set picks for me and Roger
couldn't get to the pick because he's a mountain of
a man, and I would just get off the pick
and make shots. And it was driving Roger crazy. So
he rescheduled another game against us and brought Cliff Harris.
Do you remember Cliff Harris. It's again before your time,
but he was Bill Bates before Bill Bates, and he
was certifiably crazy. They called him Crash because he had

(01:14:41):
no scruples, you know, like he didn't care about his body.
So Roger brought Cliff Harris to guard me, which is
hitting a NAT with a sledgehammer, right, And that's what happened,
you know. It was sledgehammer on NAT. But that was
Roger because he's not going to lose to the sports writer,
the sports car. He's just not going to do it.
He's gonna take me. Cliff's gonna take me out, Okay,

(01:15:03):
So he he was. I was in awe of him,
but I had the blessing of just getting to know
him in those teams. So even before that, I was
at the La Times out here right out of college,
and I was in the middle of stuff right and
left that The Steve Garvey Dodgers were huge at that
point with Ron Say and David Lopes, and they didn't

(01:15:25):
like Steve Garvey and they didn't like his wife. So
I got that they came to me and wanted me
to write the story. So I was always in the
middle of something like Controversy found me a lot in
my writing career, and I don't know why, but I
didn't run from it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:39):
Attack m favorite team to cover, most favorite team to
cover of.

Speaker 4 (01:15:43):
All time, Yes, ninety eight Bulls. I mean last dance.
I'm dancing, man, I'm there. Michael liked me, and he
didn't like many in the media. But I don't know why.
I think he liked me because I was my own
guy and I didn't care what anybody thought. And he

(01:16:03):
got a kick out of me, and and he opened
to me and would call me if I left him
a message, he'd call me back. And listen that championship
run with that team, watching that stuff unfold because they
went against Reggie's Pacers, and it was a battle of
royal man. It was seven games with controversy just spilling

(01:16:26):
right and left because Phil would get into it with
the referees and and it got that Reggie and company.
They forced it all the way to game seven. Chris
Mallen was on that team and the Davis's and yeah
they were they were legit now and Reggie was obviously
a legit shooter. Score and they got it to game

(01:16:47):
seven and then Michael said it no, not in my house.
So that was the end of that. But that's my
favorite team by far.

Speaker 5 (01:16:53):
Which player was your best interview?

Speaker 4 (01:16:55):
You know, I've been thinking about this because the World
Series just ended. Reggie Jackson, do you know do you
do you have a field.

Speaker 3 (01:17:06):
I just got to to pat you off. I just
got a chance to play in his celebrity softball game.
It was the last game in the coliseum.

Speaker 2 (01:17:14):
Wow at the baseball game he played? Yeah, yeah, did.

Speaker 3 (01:17:17):
You incredible his energy or the passion he still speaks
with like he was really cool game.

Speaker 2 (01:17:23):
So let's go golf.

Speaker 4 (01:17:25):
Yeah, really you should take him up.

Speaker 2 (01:17:27):
Definitely, Definitely, he's done in county now really?

Speaker 4 (01:17:31):
Wow? Yep, okay, so name he was coming off a
game six at Yankee Stadium in which he had hit
three straight runs on three straight pitches. Never see anything
like that. They're in Fort Lauderdale for spring training. The
LA Times assigned me to do a big sit down

(01:17:52):
if I could get him to sit down. And I'm
a nobody kid reporter on twenty four four probably and
I caught him as he was entering on a Sunday
morning before an afternoon game in Fort Lauderdown. You know
what it was in Baltimore? I mean it was Baltimore's
in Miami because the baltim the Oriels were in Miami,
so it was at their ballpark, the old Municipal State

(01:18:14):
in Miami. Anyway, I caught him, introduced myself, and he
couldn't have been nicer than me. And I don't know why,
because he was big. He was because baseball was way
bigger than it is now. So he was NFL, NBA stature.
He was lift off. You know, he was the biggest

(01:18:34):
name in sports because he was always into it with
Billy Martin. And he said, let's do this, and he
sat down in his locker and I just caught him.
You know how, we're all in moods, and I caught
him in a good mood, and he just gushed to
me and that man is brilliant about sports life, what's

(01:18:58):
really happening. And I was just mesmerized, but I got law.
I was just taking notes and I would get lost
in what he was saying because it was so pure
to me and it was so enlightening. And then I
would see him occasionally because I was in in Dallas
and he would come to play the Rangers at Arlington

(01:19:19):
Stadium and he would always remember my name, and so
he's my that's my guy. We had him on Undisputed
at least one time, and I'm in all of his presence,
just his all. You can feel it, right, you want
to talk about a powerful human being God to watch

(01:19:40):
him swing and unleash.

Speaker 5 (01:19:41):
The game we played in I think a Rod asked
me a question of what he went through when he
was playing. That went viral and broke down, really really
broke down and broke it what he went through as
a player.

Speaker 3 (01:19:51):
Yeah, we played at some charity softball game in Alabama
at the first ballpark what was it called Dammit Banham
in Birmingham, Yeah, Burmah.

Speaker 4 (01:20:00):
I watched it.

Speaker 2 (01:20:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:20:01):
You had a quote saying I made some money on TV.
Now it's time to make my mark. You've obviously transitioned
off a very successful linear journalistic career. Yep, you're transferring
over into this new form of sports media. I guess
it is. It's the new wave. What do you expect?
How you liking it? And have you kind of found
your footing yet?

Speaker 4 (01:20:21):
I am more excited than I've ever been because I'm
challenged like I've never been. You guys know this landscape
way better than I do. And I'm serious, I'm like
chasing you guys now. But I needed this. I wanted this.
I know I can do it. We're taking baby steps.
We're developing three other shows than my current podcast, which

(01:20:43):
is Solo Podcasts, never even had a guest on it.
But but we've got three in the works and we're
expanding and we're excited. So it's a brave, new world
and frontier again. I'm learning from you guys. I'm watching
closely how you do it. It's been educational to see

(01:21:05):
what scope you have here and how your crew operates,
and how this show operates. I'm learning and I'm starting fresh,
and I like it that I'm against all odds because
that's when I'm at my best.

Speaker 2 (01:21:18):
I like that.

Speaker 3 (01:21:18):
Where do you think you know? I always feel like
you know in this space, there's been a huge shift.
Athletes voices are more present than ever. Where do you
feel the ESPNS and Fox kind of sit in this
new era where I always feel like they'll be there,
but if they're not, necessarily you have to be there

(01:21:40):
now to be heard or be seen. Where do you
kind of feel like traditional or I hate to say
old school, but almost old school ish media sits compared
to this new wave of digital media.

Speaker 4 (01:21:50):
I think you answered your question as you asked it,
because you guys' voices are much more powerful, your platforms
are more powerful and than they used to be. And
it's everywhere because of digital so your voices can resonate

(01:22:10):
and echo louder than they they used to. And it's
a beautiful thing to watch. But is there still room
for people who didn't play, who also have a different
perspective on it? Sure there is, so do I think
studio shows will go completely away? I hope not. I'm
knocking on would from our friends in the business. But

(01:22:33):
this is the new way, and this is where you
have to go if you're going to survive in this business.

Speaker 2 (01:22:41):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:22:43):
Just the other night we saw a huge meltdown by
Dylan's Yankees in the fifth inning they gave the Dodgers
six outset inning, and yeah, and gave them the World Series.
Just thoughts on that series. I really thought Yankees had
a sloppy season. I feel like, very talented, but I
think they're you know, they're sloppiness up to But I
really felt like there's a lot of great baseball in
this actual World Series the world.

Speaker 4 (01:23:08):
Yes, I haven't gotten over the fifth inning of what
became a close out game that I did not see
coming because it's five to nothing. Judge has found his stroke.
He's escaped his slump. It looked like he was back.
It looked like they were back. Stanton was back, Soto

(01:23:33):
was back, and it felt like they were taking charge.
And so I couldn't wait for We're taking the front.
But what was going to be tonight a Friday night
game six? Because it was going to get really interesting,
especially if somehow the Yankees could maintain the momentum and
get it to a game seven, then we could talk

(01:23:56):
all time classic. And it's five to nothing, and it
felt like fifty to nothing to me because Garrett Cale
looked invincible to me. He looked untouchable to me, and
he was so poised and so in command and control
that I'm saying he might just go nine and just
shut them out and do something that we hadn't seen

(01:24:19):
since the days of my all time favorite baseball player
Bob Gibson and my old Saint Louis Cardinals, who would
just shut you out in two hours and two minutes
and you'd beat the next game.

Speaker 2 (01:24:28):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:24:29):
It's what we used to call a can of corn
fly ball. It's as routine as it gets to Aaron Judge,
and he just muffs it because he took his eye
off it for a split second. But it's something little
kids don't do when they're seven or eight years old.
It's just you just can't do that at that moment.
But that now the floodgates still haven't opened yet. Then

(01:24:51):
it's a pretty routine ground ball to Volpie and it's
a pretty routine force out at third, and he just
he gets a little too fine with it, just dirt balls,
and it's it's like a ten foot throw. It felt like,
you know, okay, but you're still you're still okay, and
it's ground ball to first, and Garrett Cole just loses

(01:25:14):
his mind for a second and he doesn't cover first.
And now the floodgates have opened because you've done the
three things in one inning that I didn't think you
were capable of doing one thing in one inning, and
you've tripled it. You've gone triple jeopardy to the point
that you could just see the body language of the

(01:25:35):
Dodgers like, we're gonna give us this seriously, And the
floodgates open into the Yankees credit. They fought back and
took the lead again, but you just knew what was coming.
That was coming, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:25:48):
After every ear they made, I was telling Dylan, the
baseball guys don't like this, Dylan, the baseball gods don't.

Speaker 2 (01:25:53):
They just don't. Baseball godsill like hot topic.

Speaker 3 (01:25:59):
Obviously, coming off what from the outside looking in was
a very successful season for the WNBA, with the growth
of the game and the young stars coming in the game.
But when you look at the numbers, the league lost
over forty million dollars. Do you see light at the
end of the tunnel, and you, obviously because you were around,
do you see any similarities to where the w is

(01:26:20):
at this point and where the NBA was in their
twenty seventh or twenty eighth year.

Speaker 4 (01:26:24):
I'm trying to step back from it and comprehend what
just happened to this league. I wasn't a big Caitlin
Clark fan when she was at Iowa, though I got
into it a little more in the final four, and
certainly the final game, I found myself captivated watching her,

(01:26:45):
and I don't obviously she brought a lot more white
people back to watch the game, but it seemed to
all swirl around her whatever new popularity like. I'm not
sure she saved it, but but she changed the game,
and I still can't quite explain why, because I thought

(01:27:09):
she was just a three point shooter and I didn't
see this at Iowa. But but she's a lebron Asque
passer of the basketball. Yes, okay, so I didn't see
that coming. And she led the league by far and assists.
But she shattered, I mean, like obliterated the all time
turnover record and it wasn't She did it by like

(01:27:30):
seventy five turnovers. Because she will try anything at any moment,
thread the needle where there's seventeen hands in between and
you're not going to get the basketball through, and she
tries to get it through. But every once in a while,
she'll throw some lead pass like Wes Unseld used to.
You know, Kevin loves good ad. But she'll throw some
lead passes just it's a touchdown, you know, where she'll

(01:27:52):
hit somebody right in the hands for a lamp. You say, pooh,
that's that's lebron ask. She has an effortless distance stroke
the logo where was she jump shoots and a lot
of the women before it weren't jumped their set shooters.
They're like feet on the floor shooters. But she can
actually leave her feet and hold the post and flick
a wrist and get it that. As you guys know,

(01:28:14):
it's a long easy man. It's not that easy to
get the ball to the basket. And she'll make an
occasional logo shot where I'll say, huh, that is obviously
Steph like. Yet she's not a very good consistent three
point shooter because her percentage was like thirty three percent.
It was way down the list of three point shooters.

(01:28:36):
Plus she's high volume, low make. And yet she completely
changed the way that team plays basketball. And I got
addicted to watching that team, not just because of her,
because all of them, because it worked. Now they've fired
their coach because they are going to bring in a
better coach. They think they get the Connecticut coach.

Speaker 2 (01:28:53):
I guess.

Speaker 4 (01:28:54):
So my answer to all that, it's a great question.
But all I know is I started watching because I
was mesmerized by how great she was and how bad
she was all at the same time, and it was
captivating to my eyes. I don't know, so she became it.
She's not very strong. She needs to get a lot stronger,
and they're taking the ball away from her. But help

(01:29:15):
me out. Would you watch her?

Speaker 2 (01:29:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:29:17):
Absolutely, I'm really I enjoyed the W as a whole,
and and we're working on kind of a little bit
of a passion piece, kind of comparing where the W
is now compared to the NBA was then, you know,
and almost comparing, not because we still you have to
see what these women are going to do, but kind
of how Magic and Bird brought some life to the game.

(01:29:38):
Caitlin and Angel brought some game life to the game.
How there's a Juju and mj were coming down the
pipeline with new breath, frash air in the game. There's
you know, there's a gainful of similarities to where they
are and in their respective times. Yeah, quick hitters, man,
this has been amazing. First thing to come to mind.
Let us know your this is gonna get spicy. Top

(01:29:59):
ten in NBA players of all time.

Speaker 4 (01:30:02):
Of all time, all the time, she warned me. And
I would have brought my list in my man Tyler's
over here, maybe he could help me. Yeah, okay, so
I think we all can agree on the number one
name on that list, Jeffrey, Yes, thank you, Jeffrey. And
I've got Magic too, And now I wish I had

(01:30:24):
my list. I think I had Shack three kream four,
Duncan five, Okay, Bill Russell, Kobe seventh, Larry eighth, and
lebron Is ninth. Okay in Wilts, thank.

Speaker 2 (01:30:39):
You, Tyler.

Speaker 3 (01:30:40):
Any Larry Bird stories can you give us one? I'm
a huge fan of Larry Bird.

Speaker 4 (01:30:44):
Two quick ones. So I'm at the Final Four, nineteen
seventy nine, Salt Lake City. Gil Brandt then the Cowboys
GM would always run a hospitality suite for the college
basketball coaches under the auspices of he's trying to find
the next Steven Jackson who can be a tight end

(01:31:06):
for him that can sort of transfer height speed over
into football.

Speaker 2 (01:31:12):
Allegedly.

Speaker 4 (01:31:13):
I think he just wanted to be a powerbroker. But
he would have all the best coaches come through the
suite because they weren't all participating in the Final Four.
So on Sunday, ahead of the Monday night game, which
is going to be Bird Magic Indiana State Michigan State,
I'm in the hospitality suite and Gil pulls me aside
and he said, listen, I've talked to all the best coaches,

(01:31:34):
Dean Smith, the Bobby Knights. They don't believe Larry Bird
can play at the next level. I said, seriously, because
I hadn't been able to see I saw him in
the semi final, but it wasn't enough. I think they
played de Paul Mark acguire, who I got to know
in Dallas, and he said, yeah, the quote I keep
hearing is Larry Bird is too slow footed to make

(01:31:56):
it in the NBA. So I wrote a piece for
Monday Warnings, Dallas Morning News newspaper, in which I said
that there are coaches here who don't believe Larry Bird
can play. I didn't say it, but I said there
are those here, because I don't think he was making
that up or exaggerating that they lose obviously to Magic
and Gregory Kelser, who was that were just too good

(01:32:18):
for what Larry had in the nited state. And uh,
that was real, like really really wrong because he could
really really play for a thousand other reasons than slow
feed because anticipating steals, he got his hands on a
lot of basketballs defensively where slow feet didn't really come

(01:32:39):
into play. And obviously he's shooting him back behind his
head and it's like Kevin Durant, you just he's six
y nine. You're not gonna be able to bother that
shot a whole lot, and he was just deadly, especially
when it mattered the most, and a great passer. So
I'm in Dallas at Reunion Arena. I don't know if
you ever played at old reunions, probably before your time,

(01:33:00):
but he came for to play and was at a
shoot around, and I just went up to him and
apologized to him, and said he didn't care who I
was or what I was, but I just apologized to him.
So then we fast forward to the eighty six All
Star Games played in Dallas, and it's the one in
which he's in the three point contest where he shoots

(01:33:22):
the last one and puts his finger up in the
air while it's in the air, I got you, okay,
And I'm told from a Mavericks insider who was in
the locker room. I remember, this is nineteen eighty six.
There's only one human who could get away with this.
But do you know this story about what he said

(01:33:43):
to his opponents?

Speaker 2 (01:33:44):
I heard a little bit before it, okay.

Speaker 4 (01:33:46):
So he walks into the locker room and it's only
how many guys are in the three point eight and
all the rest of them are not white, And Larry
Bird says to them, this is what I was told,
which one of you?

Speaker 1 (01:34:06):
And you knows huh no, oh, word word theliest word
in the history of the human language, abolished, is going
is going to finish second?

Speaker 4 (01:34:20):
Which one of you is going to finish seconds? They say, Okay,
there's only one human and this is nineteen eighty six.
Who could get away with that?

Speaker 2 (01:34:33):
To me?

Speaker 4 (01:34:34):
And it's that guy, That's what I was doing. But
it's that guy. And they already knew what he was
because he's winning championships and m vps. So I assume
I think it's Craig Hodges was the best of his opponents,
and they're probably just.

Speaker 2 (01:34:48):
Like, damn you. Okay, fuck you too?

Speaker 3 (01:34:52):
Ye?

Speaker 5 (01:34:52):
Yeah, I mean to Bird's created. He used to get white,
I mean get mad when white guy's gardener. They said
that was the insult. Nobody can Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:35:04):
Eight mile race, you broun tyreek Hill and Mookie Betts.
Who wins? Who are the.

Speaker 5 (01:35:10):
You bron bron you braun tyreek Hill and Mookie Betts hate.

Speaker 2 (01:35:14):
That's a hell of a question my race. I'm going
with you.

Speaker 4 (01:35:18):
I think I might beat him by a mile.

Speaker 2 (01:35:20):
Yeah, I'm going to skip.

Speaker 4 (01:35:21):
Well, I mean, when have any of those humans the
three miles. Okay, it's what I do every day. It
wouldn't be fair. And it says nothing about me athletically whatsoever,
except I'm in really good shape. Yeah yeah, but athletically
it says zero. But they would have no chance. And

(01:35:46):
if any of them, I would like to do it,
if any of the if they're listening watching, now, let's go,
I'll be there and bring your wallet hardly.

Speaker 3 (01:35:55):
And Skip what makes Skip Bayless happy?

Speaker 4 (01:36:00):
My wife does make me very happy, yes, I must admit.
And my dog Hazel makes me very happy as she
knows Maltese. As she ate now eight then she's ate.
But those two keep me right. That they keep me upright.
They they make me very happy. Tonight is date night

(01:36:26):
and I'm looking forward to it. And I can say
this about my wife, God's truth. Not once in my
life with her, and we started in five, we got
married in sixteen, but so five we're almost twenty years together.
There's never been one moment with her I've been bored,
not one moment. I do play golf, but I don't

(01:36:48):
play cards with the guys on Wednesday night. I don't
go out with the guys on Friday night, I just
want to be with her. I'm obsessed with what I
do and it makes me very happy. Because it's Saturday.
Is fine, but I only look forward to the time
with her because every second I have not doing this

(01:37:08):
thing this microphone is dedicated to her and too Hazel,
and so she does make me very happy, whether she
believes it or not, and half the time she doesn't.

Speaker 2 (01:37:20):
Again for day night, No Oaklhoma.

Speaker 4 (01:37:24):
City's at Portland watching. We're going to watch the come on.

Speaker 2 (01:37:35):
Top three Jordan's to wear. Oh god, you like the ones? Yeah,
you'll be a big one guy.

Speaker 4 (01:37:43):
You know what my top three?

Speaker 5 (01:37:45):
We used to compare shoes when I was working with Well.
I used to check his drip every day less.

Speaker 4 (01:37:50):
I do like the Concords the elevens both high and lows,
and so they would probably be high and low would
be my second two because they're away beyond all the
others that I.

Speaker 3 (01:38:01):
Had quickly explain their relationship, like, well, between you and
Lil Wayne and then you guys seem like you guys
are really good friends.

Speaker 2 (01:38:10):
Yeah, yeah, he loves Skipp. That's my boy.

Speaker 4 (01:38:14):
You know that he loved our show. This is pri
Stephen a and I think you helped get him to
My wife helped book this, but somehow she connected with
his people. And because he was playing a concert in
Westchester County and outside of New York City, it was
a fairly handy to hour bus ride. He was on

(01:38:35):
his tour bus to come to Bristol, and he wanted
to come to Bristol and be on first take. And
he came to the pre show meeting which started at
seven thirty in the morning. I don't think he went
to bed, no, right, nope, but they literally pulled their
tour bus right up to the door and we start

(01:38:57):
talking across the table about Steph Curry. And it was
before the Steph Blake draft. And everybody at ESPN loved
Blake Griffin and I didn't because I'm an Oklahoma fan
by birth, and so I'd watched Blake for two full
years at Oklahoma and he could make a shot from
like a foot away, seriously, but he was, as you know,

(01:39:20):
extremely explosively athletic at whatever six ' ten, could jump
you know, to the next county as an explosive dunker.
But I don't know, I just didn't. I didn't love him.
He reinvented himself as a three point shooter and extended
his career shooting threes. But I was in awe of

(01:39:42):
little Steph at Davidson because I said, this is revolutionary,
and I kept saying his handle is way better than people.
He can play point guard because he's not a flashy passer,
but he's a really good passer with a great handle,
So forget just about the shooting. He can run the
basket all team. So Wayne is agreeing with me, and

(01:40:03):
no one had agreed with me at ESPN, and we
clicked over Steph at Davidson because it's before the draft,
and we agreed we would both take Steph number one
in the draft above Blake And when do you go
seven in the draft? Like, come on?

Speaker 2 (01:40:17):
Really?

Speaker 4 (01:40:18):
Okay? So that started it, and then he took me
after the show out to the tour bus where he
has a recording studio. It's like a bathroom size studio
on the bus.

Speaker 2 (01:40:28):
Did you did you get a contact?

Speaker 4 (01:40:32):
I don't. I don't do that.

Speaker 2 (01:40:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:40:39):
Yeah, And so I'm pretty susceptible to contact. And I
was feeling real good.

Speaker 2 (01:40:49):
We could we could re enact that feelings.

Speaker 4 (01:40:54):
I'm sure I should try that sometimes maybe that would
would sort of calm me down. But the point is
then we just clicked. I don't know, but it's pure
sports you want to talk about, coming from opposite ends
of the earth. So it was that when he moved
out here four years ago, my wife and I would

(01:41:15):
go visit him. I don't know, every couple of months.
We'd drive out to hidden hills out in the valley.
And I know people won't believe this, but we would
sit and talk, the three of us. He would include
her because he does love her and has like a
big sister, and we would just talk about not about
sports because she's not the biggest sports fan. We would
just talk life stuff, show stuff, I don't know, music stuff,

(01:41:38):
behind the scenes stuff, a little sports. She says that
it would work its way in, but but we would
talk for four straight hours with no bathroom breaks, no food,
and no drink but occasional puffs, you know, right, yeah, okay,
so but that's but we would sit outside because Ernestine
doesn't deal great with the smoke. We just sit out

(01:41:59):
on the back. Poorchold. You just talk, okay, So that's
how it, that's how it happens.

Speaker 2 (01:42:05):
And whatever. People don't know wherever Wayne is.

Speaker 5 (01:42:07):
He's in the studio nominally from like eight in the
evening to like nine in the morning. Normally, whatever he
is basketball sports is on every TV. There's no TV,
no shows, and sports on every whatever game is on ESPN,
Like that's all he watched all night long.

Speaker 2 (01:42:22):
That's that's why he knows so much about sports.

Speaker 4 (01:42:24):
He is obsessed and also brilliant, like deep brilliant. My
favorite communication with him is text because we kind of
play can you top this when we're going back and forth,
and I would look at the text chains and I
would say this, this, this could be a book. He

(01:42:46):
knows what he's talking about. And it's like deep passionate
deep passion of what makes somebody tick tick, you know,
like what's really happening with so and so so.

Speaker 3 (01:42:58):
He didn't see it a lot covered Mike Tyson in
his prime. Yeah, thoughts on the upcoming fight with him
and Paul at Jerry's World where Jerry, Okay, you're welcome.

Speaker 2 (01:43:08):
I'll be there.

Speaker 5 (01:43:09):
No, I know, I told you he was coming because
any otherwise you can come down there, you eed the
j Macney I can come. I called it, like Jerry,
I'm bringing some party niners fans from Kelly.

Speaker 2 (01:43:18):
They cool.

Speaker 5 (01:43:19):
He was like, yeah, they're cool because it's a boxing match.
But if it was a game, y'all couldn't come in.

Speaker 3 (01:43:22):
Okay, cool, exactly, skip the call in too.

Speaker 4 (01:43:30):
The closer we get, the more fascinated I get by it,
because at first I scoffed like everybody else did, and
then I start to think, that guy, there's some special guys,
you know, who are just special, special whatever they're made of. Obviously,
Mike didn't take care of himself when it was time
to take care of or he could have done whatever
he wanted to do. But when he was right, he

(01:43:51):
was the baddest on the planet and arguably the baddest
who ever walked, ever walked. And whatever that quality is
is still percolating inside there. Yes, and he looks like
he's in pretty good shape, because I'm in really good shape.

(01:44:12):
And so I look at it and I say, he's
fifty eight. Okay, okay. So at first I thought, there's
no way he can beat this kid, because this kid's
pretty athletic in his decent behind he does. Then I
start watching it. I don't know what Jake's doing, but
but he looked like he put on a little weight

(01:44:32):
to me, just to just paunchy, excess weight that he
does not need. And I start thinking, is Jake really
taking this as seriously as you better take that? I
hope he is. Or I know they're wearing big old
pillowcase gloves, you know, like pillows. But still Mike could
hurt him. If if Mike goes like Haywire screwy, you know,

(01:44:55):
like where he calls upon that thing that's it's locked
deep down side, then he could do some damage.

Speaker 5 (01:45:03):
But that's why I feel scared for Jake, because the
best boxes are the ones that can inflict pain but
also mentally in control. The best one was Floyd Terrence
carp for those type of guys. So Mike is more
peace than he's ever been. That's what's scary. That he's
going He's not showing up to the fight. I want
to eat your kids. He showed up with how Jake did.

(01:45:24):
That's what's scary. So if you think Mike not showing
up going crazy, it's more frightened than the calm Mike.

Speaker 2 (01:45:30):
You better think that. It's another thing you need to
look at it. Bout boxing.

Speaker 3 (01:45:33):
Roy told us he wasn't. Mike was supposed to. They
were supposed kind of supposed to.

Speaker 2 (01:45:36):
Chill. I saw Mike, he had movement, his powers is
still there.

Speaker 4 (01:45:43):
No, he can't help. At first I thought Mike wasn't
taking this very seriously. And then Jake started to insult
in like personal shot, insulting. And after a while you
could see Mike's eyes and and they're going crazy eyes
like like good crazy.

Speaker 5 (01:45:58):
Like Mike had time to get his health right, like
you want to play Jay, Okay, give me some time
to get my health right.

Speaker 2 (01:46:02):
Now, I'm going to come knock your ass out. Shall
see what should see? If you could see one guest
on All the Smoke, who would it be? But you
have to help us get your answer on the show?

Speaker 4 (01:46:16):
Donald Trump?

Speaker 2 (01:46:17):
Oh nice? I like that. Nice. I would definitely sit
down with Nice.

Speaker 4 (01:46:21):
I can't help, but yes, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:46:23):
That's that's a good one. I like that. A lot
of people want to see that. I would like. Well,
Skip Man, thank you very much.

Speaker 3 (01:46:29):
And before we get at it, I just want to think,
Like I said, I've always had a lot of respect
and been a big fan and and in this process
of finding out.

Speaker 2 (01:46:35):
We were going to get a chance to interview.

Speaker 3 (01:46:36):
I got to dig deep and and do my research
and kind of find out what you're about and who
you're about, and and and hear you out, and it
just made me.

Speaker 2 (01:46:43):
More of a fan of what you do.

Speaker 3 (01:46:46):
It was honored to get a chance to work with
you early on and definitely looking forward to seeing what
you do in this next step. As hard as you work,
I know you'll be successful.

Speaker 2 (01:46:54):
Man.

Speaker 3 (01:46:54):
So we just really want to on behalf of both
of us extend our you know, our biggest gratity.

Speaker 5 (01:47:00):
And appreciation for opening that door. You know it undisputed
for us too. That was big, but both thanks appreciate that.

Speaker 4 (01:47:06):
All that means a lot. I love both of you.
She knows this, My wife knows this because of how
you fought, because you're both your own men, and you
believe so passionately and deeply in what was down inside
of you that you fought back and you have true

(01:47:30):
edge to both of you why this is exactly working now.
I have deep edge in me because by nature, if
you know me at heart, I'm a fighter, I'm a competitor,
and I have kindred spirit to what you're achieving on
this show. So God bless both.

Speaker 2 (01:47:48):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:47:49):
I remember reading you stop fighting high school though, that's
when you give it up, skip you the scrap I
was reading that.

Speaker 2 (01:47:56):
I read about you the fift broken nose and two
black guys still went to school the next day.

Speaker 4 (01:48:03):
Took one shot yea from Jamie Staley in fifth grade.
I took one and my nose was flatten.

Speaker 2 (01:48:10):
I did remember his name.

Speaker 3 (01:48:12):
He wrote about that's how I do about it. I
read that pieces like I love that gifts like in
high school.

Speaker 4 (01:48:17):
I said, yeah, but it was a sucker punch.

Speaker 2 (01:48:19):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:48:21):
Before we get out of here, we're gonna hey, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:48:26):
We've launched the fight side of our company.

Speaker 3 (01:48:28):
So we got some all the smoke, fight some all
the smoke, a shirt there looking over and then we're,
you know, most proud of you know, we've we've teamed
up with Simon and Schuster to do our first ever podcast,
first podcast ever, Soldier boy can't.

Speaker 2 (01:48:45):
Say that you ain't off the table books.

Speaker 3 (01:48:48):
So again, in honor of just your greatness and and
taking the time with us, we want to make sure
we get all this to you and thank you for
being on.

Speaker 2 (01:48:56):
The show today.

Speaker 3 (01:48:57):
Ship thank you, yeah, give it up, Skip, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:49:04):
Hey man, now where can you catch this episode? Yeah? Man,
that's a rap.

Speaker 3 (01:49:08):
Amazing at a great time today, sitting down with with Skip.
But you can catch this on all the Smoke Productions
YouTube and the DraftKings Network.

Speaker 2 (01:49:16):
We'll see y'all next week. See y'all next week. M h.

Speaker 4 (01:49:24):
Mm hmmmm mm hmm.

All Episodes

All The Smoke: How Skip Bayless Changed Sports TV Forever (& Made A Lot of Enemies) | Full Episode | ALL THE SMOKE

Episode Transcript

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Stephen Jackson

Matt Barnes

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}All The Smoke: How Skip Bayless Changed Sports TV Forever (& Made A Lot of Enemies) | Full Episode | ALL THE SMOKE