July 7, 2020 • 31 mins
Today we are joined by Ginita Wall and Candace Bahr, founders of Wife.org and Second Saturday Divorce Workshops to discuss what to expect when getting divorced, and how to handle your finances during the process.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi there. It's me Laura Wasser, the divorce attorney and
the founder of It's over Easy, the online divorce service.
I've been practicing family law for over twenty years and
I've worked on thousands of divorces, shepherding people through what
may be one of the most terrifying times in their lives.
Along the way, I often have to remind people to
(00:23):
lower their expectations when dealing with matters of the heart.
Rules simply don't apply, because all's fair in love and war.
Open your heart, fasten your seatbelts, and let's go. Hello everyone.
I'm Laura Wasser, the attorney and CEO of the online
divorce service It's over Easy, and I'm Johnny Rain's chief
(00:43):
content officer. And It's over Easy. Over Easy is many
things too many people. First and foremost, It's over Easy
is a tool anyone can use with their student to
be x to navigate their own legal divorce without attorneys
at a great price. Considering the average divorce in the
United States is upwards a fifth teen thousand dollars, I'd say,
and It's over Easy divorce, which is all in between
(01:04):
seven fifty is definitely worth the money. In addition, to
its every easy being an easy to use yourself divorce platform,
We've created a safe place for a community of modern voices,
all of whom understand what we call the evolution of dissolution,
also known as how to divorce without destroying your family
or bankrupting yourself. If you listen to Divorce Sucks, you'll
(01:25):
remember meeting a few of our future professionals from the index.
And today we'd like to introduce you to the brilliant
women who created and sponsor one of the most important
organizations in our circle called Second Saturday, the co founders
of the Women's Institute for Financial Education, which is brilliantly
and more widely known as wife dot org. Welcome to
(01:46):
us fair, Candice bar and Janita Wall. Hi, guys, So okay,
I I have been a big fan of Second Saturday forever.
But let's get a little bit of info about you,
guys and backstory. What drew you two together? Well, that
began about thirty two years ago. Janina and I worked
(02:09):
professionally in the San Diego area, Janita being a CPA
and a sort of five finance planner, and I owned
my own investment firm, and we found that we both
had an interest not only in working professionally with our clients,
but also in helping women understand more about money and
going from there, we created the Women's Institute for Financial
(02:31):
Education because we wanted a nonprofit, non biased way to
teach women about money. Going from there, we found out
one of the biggest financial issues that women may ever
face is going through divorce. So we created a program
for divorce. I love it and we've been running it
ever since. And I mean the fact that you guys
(02:52):
started it, that you stuck with it. I'm sure you
have seen it so many amazing both sad but also
hugely inspiring story. I spoke a couple of years ago
at the Women or at Tina Brown's Women in the World,
and we what the panel that I was on was
assigned this topic, which is women and financial issues and
how we as women so often kind of abdicate financials
(03:14):
reponsibility and it doesn't matter what level of wealth you're at.
I've had women come into my office that, you know,
they could get a table at any restaurant in Los Angeles.
They've got personal shoppers at Neiman Marcus and Barney's when
it existed, and they're sophisticated and and they say, I
am so embarrassed. I have no idea what our financial
situation is. I know kum laude at at my college,
(03:36):
and yet I got married and I kind of just
completely left it to him. And I said, well, the
good becausiness. You're never going to be in the situation again.
We're going to get you all of that information because,
as you both know, it's all discoverable as part of
the divorce process and really learn how to become the
master of your own destiny. Um. And again, it's all relative,
(03:57):
whether it's those women or men that have lived at
such a high level of wealth, or somebody that says,
I don't know how I'm going to do this because
if I leave him, I'm going to be living in
my car, or I'm not going to be able to
have the same kind of an apartment, you know, to
one bedroom, as opposed to to as opposed to studio.
So um, Janita, tell us about you. You you went
(04:18):
to Antioch in Ohio. Yes, yes, I went to Antioch
College and I became a c p A. And then
in the eighties I became a certified financial planner and
then I sold my big accounting practice in New Mexico,
and I moved to San Diego, and Candice was the
second person that I met in San Diego, and we
(04:41):
really we just started meeting every week and saying, what
can we do to help the people of San Diego
and more specifically the women of San Diego, because women
were really coming into their own in the eighties. They
were earning paychecks there, they were advancing, but so many
of them, as you said, and we're leaving the money
(05:01):
matters up to men. And then when we hit the
financial crisis of the late eighties with the stock market plunge,
they suddenly went, oh, my gosh, men don't know any
more about this than we do. They weren't able to
prevent that, and so we set up wife dot org
to start to start educating women. And then a couple
(05:24):
of years later, we started Second Saturday and Candice and
I started that program together. It's Second Saturday, what Women
Need to Know about Divorce. I've been running it ever since.
In San Diego. About twenty years ago we added a
program for men called the Men's Divorce Workshop, and then
(05:44):
about five years ago we started expanding the program around
the country and now you guys are online as well. Correct,
we are as of now, as of the virus days. Yeah,
that's taken us online. We've always at in person workshops,
and in person workshops are incredibly valuable where people can
(06:05):
get together for three or four hours, support each other,
learned together, really form a community where it's safe to
say what you need to say. And that's not possible
right now. So we've done the next best thing and
taken it online. Not for four hours, because that would
be really hard to spend four hours sitting at your computer,
(06:30):
but we've shortened it down and we've empowered our leaders
around the country to put on the program on a virtual,
online live setting. I have a question. So both of
you clearly good at finances, good probably at maths, which
I never was. I am seeing some schools. I have
(06:51):
one kid that's in elementary school and one kid that's
a freshman in high school, and I am seeing schools
and educators because we're I'm on the board at our school,
and I also obviously speak with many parents and educators
about what kids go through during divorce. But away from
that for a moment, I have seen elementary and middle
school kids being divided up by gender to learn math.
(07:15):
And I have heard that girls, little girls do better
in math classes if boys aren't in there because then
they feel more comfortable. And I'm I've torn about this,
but I thought it was really interesting. Any thoughts about that?
I mean, two women who clearly excelled, or maybe you didn't,
maybe it came to later in life. I was never
good at math, so I just hire a forensic accountant
in my cases, or somebody like one of you. What
(07:37):
do you think about that idea that we actually really
are wired differently genetically and can do better and perform
better if we're if we don't have young males in
the classroom with us. I'll take that. This is Candice.
We saw a series of studies that were conducted a
number of years ago that showed as girls reach out lessons,
(07:57):
they begin to dumb down a little bit. It because
they want to impress the boys, they don't want to
outshine them. So from that standpoint, having two separate classes
very beneficial. In fact, that's actually what we felt when
we first started Second Saturday. Having a workshop for women
only we felt was very valuable, and we see it
(08:20):
because women aren't afraid to speak up often we defer
again to men, well, they might know more, they might
know better. When you're in an all women workshop, you
get honest communication and there's no fear of being better
than or worse than somebody else. Interesting, all right, this
is I think your catch players, which if he wants
(08:41):
to tell me what your catchphrases, a man is not
a financial plan. I love that. I mean I really did.
I went to cal um and I graduated with so
many young women who I really enjoyed. And again no judgment,
but they decided that their plan was going to be
that they were going to get married to somebody wealthy
and they were going to be his wife. And if
(09:02):
there Mrs Degree right, and some of them are doing great,
and some of them have since divorced and have really realized,
I mean, even if any big support checks, they've said,
I'd so envy you. And if I had something to
tell my twentiesomething year old self, it would be like,
keep my toe in the work pond, continue to have something.
Now my kids are at school, I got nothing to
do all day, and I'm dependent on somebody else for
(09:25):
my finances. That's true. Marrying Prince Charming can really backfire
when it comes to divorce, because you've probably signed a
prenuptial with Prince Charming that says what's his will be his.
After the divorce, you've given up your earning power. You
have perhaps accumulated some assets together, but not a lot,
(09:50):
and your friends who took the career route are much
better off than you are, even though they're not getting
those big support checks. Sometimes we're paying the big support checks. Actually,
that's frustrating to yes, Canadice, and I'd like to speak
to that from a standpoint of somebody who's been married
for more than forty years. We manage money together, but
(10:13):
we also manage money separately because it's important, in my opinion,
to be a partner, not a dependent. We also, in
my career as a financial advisor working with people over
the years, I've seen it where it's the opposite. The
man is completely dependent on the woman. But what happens
if somebody passes away. Even if you remain married for
the rest of your life, you need to understand what
(10:36):
is going on and have a foot in it. You
don't have to do everything, but you do need to
be able to ask the right questions. Absolutely so, just
by the way for our listeners. Wife dot org was
recently named one of the top five hundred financial sites
by Online Investor. And you guys are the oldest nonprofit
(10:57):
organization dedicated to providing financial education to women in their
quest for financial independence. Because as they, as the ladies
told us, they founded in a nine Okay, now, some
questions about Second Saturday, which really is our topical for
what we do here on All's fair? Um, Candice tell
us what actually is Second Saturday and how is it
(11:19):
helpful to women? Particularly? So as Janine and I worked together,
we began to see that women needed to have the
information about divorce. Divorce can be one of the largest
financial transaction that a woman ever goes through, and you
need to go through divorce in a rational logical way.
Who are the farthest thing from being rational logic? So
(11:42):
Janina said, how can we begin to work and help
people to understand what divorce is because frankly, if you're
contemplating divorce or in the earliest stages, that's the best
time to figure out what you need to know. So
Second Saturday is a workshop. We began it or more
than thirty one years ago in San Diego, um. It
(12:05):
covers the three major actually three and a half major
areas in divorce. We go over the legal We typically
have an attorney that speaks about the legal things. Can
you do divorce yourself? How does divorce work? What is
a litigated divorce? What are the processes that you go through?
How much does it cost? Janita typically does the financial
(12:27):
What happens to if if you want to stay in
the house, can you divide the house? Can you should
you sell the house? What about pension plans? We have
a therapist talk about family, how to go through divorce
in a in a reasonable and comfortable way, to make
sure that your children are okay. And then we also
talk about mediation. Our goal with Second Saturday is to
(12:50):
give people the information that they need in a compassionate
and comfortable arena where they can talk with other people.
And here from the experts, our goal is not to
do the divorce for them. It's to give them the
resources that they need to have, including again what you've
been doing, Laura, as an option for people who feel
(13:13):
they want to go through divorce themselves. Amazing again, and
so much of this really is just about feeling there's
somebody there at the other end of the line, or
to go, you know, speak with as Janita said, in person,
is definitely better if possible. But just knowing that there's
a community, that there's a safe place that people have
been through before, divorce can be so isolating you feel
(13:36):
scared and lonely. I've had people of all ages say
I feel like I'm a failure. I just feel like
I feel that that's so having, as you said, other
people around who are not judging, who can who have
either been through it or going through it, super super helpful.
Janita tell us a little bit more about what Second
Saturday offers. By the way, I've spoken at some of
the ones at the Beverly Hills location on Saturdays, and
(13:58):
my partner Samantha Client has as well, and the way
that these women approach it and the appreciation is nothing
feels better. I mean, any kind of pro bono stuff
that I've done has always been huge, But really, I
thank you both from the bottom of my heart for
coming up with this, because I see at any level
of wealth, how unbelievably scary it can be, and just
(14:21):
having those workshops to go to is huge. But I
I started talking over my own question tell us a
little bit about what you guys offer at these Second Saturdays, please,
I'd be I'd be happy to you know I What
you said is absolutely correct, and what Second Saturday offers
people more than anything else is a really solid place
(14:44):
to stand because people know what they'd be getting out of.
What they're not really sure of is what they'd be
getting into. And I know that you're an attorney, but
when you get right down to it, divorce isn't about
the law. Divorce. This is about family, It's about emotion,
and it's about money, and it's very very scary. People
(15:08):
are uncertain of what happens next. We give them the
information that they need to start making decisions. We get
the uncertainty as much as we can out of their
lives so that they can take the steps forward, whatever
steps those are for them. As Candace said, we talk
(15:29):
about the legal, the emotional, the financial aspects of divorce,
ways to get things settled without going to court. And
you know what, very often people leave going like, oh
my gosh, I thought divorce was a solution, but it's
just a whole another set of problems. I'm going to
go home and work on my marriage. And they do absolutely.
(15:52):
I see that too. Usually that realization doesn't come until
I tell them what my retainer payment will be. But no,
it's happening absolutely to people. I don't know that this
is the norm, but that they find this freedom and
it will be so much easier. It's hard, it's hard
to get divorced, it's hard to stay married. You have
to really decide what you want. And I think having
(16:13):
a safe environment again with experience, people who have been
through it who can give different perspectives, is huge. I
see in my notes that UM the Flagship San Diego
Workshop has helped over ten thousand women and that you've
raised over four hundred thousand dollars for the San Diego
community in the form scholarships and educational programs. How do
(16:34):
you raise the funds? I know the second Saturday workshops
are either low cost or no cost. Correct, that's right.
It's forty five dollars for a workshop and that price
has remained the same over the last thirty five years,
so or thirty years, so you know, yeah, you know
how much that is relative to getting on the legal
train there and we then go through miracast to college.
(16:57):
We give one third back to the community through scholarships
and through other educational programs. We give one third back
to Miracles to College and one third goes to fund
our nonprofit Women's Institute for Financial Education. And you mentioned
our acronym is wife dot org. I want to share
a little bit we we came up with that concept
(17:18):
a number of years ago in terms of every woman
needs a wife. We've heard Glorious Steinham say that, And
what we want to be for all women is that support,
that sounding board, that partner to move them from fear,
especially as they are going through divorce, to help them
be more focused, to be determined, to be hopeful, and
(17:40):
really finally to be empowered to make the decisions they
need to make to make the best best choices for
their family. So true, God, I need a wife. I
thought Johnny was going to be my wife, but he
decided to be somebody else's has more more of a
side check. Yes, I've got a question for you, ladies
in the post me too. You know of it all
in the creation of your men's group. I'm just curious
(18:04):
to know if you have noticed any differences in in
the needs or the questions that come from the men's side.
The male side of this conversation versus what you're hearing
now in the female conversation post me too. Yeah. Absolutely.
The men's workshop is so different from the women's workshop.
First of all, there's fewer people there because men don't
(18:24):
tend to gather in groups and talk about things together.
We also can't find it because they won't ask for directions.
I'm not going to touch that one anyway. They've got
our GPS. So anyway, in the in the women's one,
you know, the women come in, they don't know each other,
but by the time we have the first break there
(18:47):
on a first name basis, they've been they know about
each other. By the time the workshop is over, there
leaving together to go have lunch with people that they
didn't know coming in who are now their new best friends.
And there's just a camaraderie there that that isn't present
(19:07):
by and large in the men's workshop. In the men's workshop,
the you could not have done a mathematical equation that
would have gotten the men sitting in this room further
away from each other. That's for starters, and then during
the breaks, they're all turned away from each other with
their backs to each other, talking on their cell phones
(19:30):
or looking at their cell phones. Yet the interaction there
is is not as as great as at the Women's
As for the questions, the questions are very similar, that
issues are very similar. And what we find a lot
in our women's workshop is that there's plenty of women who,
as you were saying, are paying alimony or faced with
(19:54):
paying alimony. There's plenty of women who have the career
and how long am I going to need to sup
court my soon to be ex husband? So the issues
are the same, and and and of course there's issues
because in divorce, at best, you're going to end up
with only half of what you had before. And that's
(20:16):
the whatever is left after legal cost that's going to
be divided in half, and that can be a problem. Absolutely.
Um to our listeners, ladies, what other states, cities and
states here and now? As I said, in addition to
San Diego, obviously there is one in Los Angeles, Beverly Hills.
Where else have you kind of expanded to so that
(20:37):
they can come find you? So they can anybody who
may be looking for a Second Saturday in their area
can go to Second Saturday dot com and they'll be
able to find where a local Second Saturday is and
this is really important because there's the list are different
in each state, so you really do want to have
(21:00):
the information that is in your local area. And we
now have more than one hundred twenty locations around the country,
including the Los Angeles areas you said, the Beverly Hills area,
UM Northern California, a lot on the East Coast, all
around the country. We are very very careful to fet
(21:21):
the people that we allow to run our Second Saturday programs.
Janita and I have worked out over the years figured
out a way to provide the content that we give
to the people here in San Diego. To the other
leaders that we have. They're highly qualified, and one of
the things that really really resonates is that most of
(21:45):
them have had experience with divorce, either their parents perhaps
got divorced there, or perhaps they've experienced it themselves or
their siblings, so they've had a personal act. So they're
not just professionals in their field, high qualified, certified financial
advisors or attorneys, but there are people who are compassionate
(22:05):
and want to help AM Now, as a result of
COVID nineteen, have you guys expanded to those of us
who can't, well, all of us that can't leave the
house during this time period. Yeah, it's very interesting times
because we're all in this together. We're all in the
same boat. And yes, we had our first and our
(22:29):
first of many uh second Saturday workshops online this past Saturday.
And I talked to a woman this morning who was
on that call on Saturday. It was a zoom call,
and she was so incredibly grateful to be able to
get some information. She and her husband have been having
marital issues. They're now separated. She's living in Hawaii, and
(22:54):
she was like, I didn't know where to start. I'm
ready to start a divorce and I didn't know what
to do. And then I found out from a friend
about this workshop that you were having online. She says it,
before I was just floating. Now I really feel like
I have some direction and I can take that direction.
Once this COVID nineteen lockdown is complete, then I'll be
(23:20):
able to move forward with some certainty in my life
because we're all dealing with uncertainty and divorce. How's this
going to Where is this going to end? We're dealing
with uncertainty because of COVID nineteen, and where do we
ever get out of the house again, and the courts
are closed in many jurisdictions, so there's nothing you can do.
(23:42):
It's it's paralyzing, and we're able to give people hope
and looking forward to the future by being online. And
I think that that's really a wave of the future,
as you were talking about earlier. That's amazing, Candice. Yes,
one thing what I'd like to is that I think
COVID nineteen may add considerable additional stress. Two marriages that
(24:08):
are already strained. They say there are two things that
could happen. Either after we get out of this, divorces
are going to explode, or we're going to see this
baby boom, probably the two ends of the barbelt. Both
of those things are going to happen. But you can
imagine people who are already in a stressed relationship now
are are going to experience being confined together. There's a
(24:29):
total lack of freedom. You're going to have the day
to day struggles that you've always had, but now you
perhaps are adding on emotional and financial fallout of this,
and it's going to take a toll on marriages. So again,
we're not about advocating divorce or pushing people to divorce.
We just know it's effect of life, and if people
(24:51):
find themselves in that situation, they need to understand what
their options are. And Second Saturday is there will be
online next month likely we are making it Normally it's
forty five dollars, which is a very reasonable bottle amount,
and it goes back to charities and so on. But
we're making it free as long as we're online. So
(25:13):
just know that if you are in that situation and
you want to know about your options, Second Saturday will
be online and will be available, and you can just
go to Second Saturday dot com and get the information
about your local Second Saturday. So helpful and to the
point of the fact that this time period with this
COVID nineteen and all of us sheltering in place, can
(25:35):
be so difficult and precipitate what could already be problems.
Do you work with victims of domestic violence? That's the
one thing that most of the courts are still open
forward to some degree if there are DV issues and
you need to go in on an next part day application.
Is that beyond what you guys do. I know, it's
beyond what we do. It it's over ezy. So what
(25:56):
do you tell those visitors if they have real issue
used as a result of what's happening now in their home. Yet,
so we have we have some resources, attorneys who deal
with those issues and therapists who can help them deal
with those issues. Uh, those are the people who are
usually at the in person sessions, and we can make
(26:17):
referrals as necessary. It's not at Second Saturday. We really
are the the person they can turn to, the where
they can go to be guided along with whatever they need. Yes,
and I know that we've had many users that it's
(26:37):
over easy. Say I did a Second Saturday program. They're
kind of helping me get through it their hand holding,
But in terms of completing my forms, I came to
you guys to get it all through and maybe getting
some of the other resources. So we work well together.
To the question, or to the point about the fact
that Candice, you said, you know this, this will actually
(26:57):
strengthen some relationships having to be together, having to deal
with issues, deciding to you know, wait this out, um,
and and certainly having to figure out things to do
with each other when we're quarantined. What do you ladies
feel is a more appropriate name for those teenagers that
thirteen years from now are the results of the quarantine
(27:21):
um appro creation. Do you like coronial or quarantines? Oh
that I've never heard that. That's very creative. I'm sure
somebody will will take those and run with them, you know,
just to to speak to Second Saturday for people who
are perhaps on the fence and trying to decide if
(27:42):
they if divorce is appropriate or they really want to
work on their relationship. As I said, I've been married
for forty years. Every time I have either taught Second
Saturday or been there as a lead, I've gone home
and been really nice to my husband. Absolutely, it makes
you appreciate what you've got, that's for sure. And what's
(28:05):
your secret? What's what's the secret to success? Candice? I
think I think we both respect each other and allowed
each other to be in individuals, but we all know
that we are partners for life and we're committed for life.
And the truth is I married a really great guy.
So if I hadn't married a really great guy, that
(28:25):
would be a whole different thing. But he really is
a very understanding and really respects that I have expertise
in the divorce area too. So maybe he's afraid. Danita,
who was the first person you met in Sandy, said,
Candice was the second. Who was the first person you
met when you got there. The first person was a
fellow who was the the PR person for an investment
(28:49):
company here in San Diego. And he said, Oh, I
met a woman at lunch the other day. You and
she would be perfect. Let me introduce you. And and yeah,
I am eternally grateful. Candice Injeneta, thank you for joining
us today. Ann's fair to speak with us about the
important work you guys are doing across the country at
(29:10):
wife dot org and the workshops are producing for Second Saturday.
Thank you also for your Instagram post at Second Saturday
Divorce workshops and to recap. Will you guys please tell
everyone where we can find you both online and how
a professional and our audience might start an in person
workshop in their own community. For you guys, that's great,
Thank you. We'd love to talk to qualified professionals as
(29:33):
well as get the information out for anybody who needs
the workshops online. You can find us at Second Saturday
dot com, or you can also find just general information
at our nonprofit Women's Institute for Financial Education. Which is
wife w I f E dot org. Don't go to
(29:54):
white dot com. You think that's an X rated site.
Wrong side any no affiliation with us? When you do,
go to second Saturday dot com. If you're looking for
a workshop that you can go to, you can click
on find a workshop and if you are somebody who
is a professional and would like to start a workshop
(30:16):
in your area, you will also see a button you
can click and and be put in touch with people
who can who can help you through that process. And
do you want to tell them about how they can
become members of wife dot org. Just in terms of
sending in a deductible contribute, Yes, wife dot org is
a five or one C three charitable organization, so everything
(30:39):
you give us is tax deductible. You can use the
resources there for free, but we do operate based on
contributions that we receive. And you at wife dot org
you will find a button that you can click if
you'd like to give us a dollar membership and you
can sign up right there, give us credit card information
(31:02):
and become a member of wife dot org. And Jonita,
do you want to tell people how they can contact
you directly if they have some financial planning work if
they if they need help with divorce or other financial transitions,
they can get hold of me directly. It's g wall
at plan for Wealth dot com. So ge wall at
(31:27):
plan for wealth dot com. Perfect. Thank you both so
much for being here with us today. You are doing
good work, guys. I am impressed and appreciative as members
of our community, so thank you you. You're showing everybody
the way. Thank you so much. We thank being here
great having you ladies. Thank you
Hi there. It's me Laura Wasser, the divorce attorney and
the founder of It's over Easy, the online divorce service.
I've been practicing family law for over twenty years and
I've worked on thousands of divorces, shepherding people through what
may be one of the most terrifying times in their lives.
Along the way, I often have to remind people to
(00:23):
lower their expectations when dealing with matters of the heart.
Rules simply don't apply, because all's fair in love and war.
Open your heart, fasten your seatbelts, and let's go. Hello everyone.
I'm Laura Wasser, the attorney and CEO of the online
divorce service It's over Easy, and I'm Johnny Rain's chief
(00:43):
content officer. And It's over Easy. Over Easy is many
things too many people. First and foremost, It's over Easy
is a tool anyone can use with their student to
be x to navigate their own legal divorce without attorneys
at a great price. Considering the average divorce in the
United States is upwards a fifth teen thousand dollars, I'd say,
and It's over Easy divorce, which is all in between
(01:04):
seven fifty is definitely worth the money. In addition, to
its every easy being an easy to use yourself divorce platform,
We've created a safe place for a community of modern voices,
all of whom understand what we call the evolution of dissolution,
also known as how to divorce without destroying your family
or bankrupting yourself. If you listen to Divorce Sucks, you'll
(01:25):
remember meeting a few of our future professionals from the index.
And today we'd like to introduce you to the brilliant
women who created and sponsor one of the most important
organizations in our circle called Second Saturday, the co founders
of the Women's Institute for Financial Education, which is brilliantly
and more widely known as wife dot org. Welcome to
(01:46):
us fair, Candice bar and Janita Wall. Hi, guys, So okay,
I I have been a big fan of Second Saturday forever.
But let's get a little bit of info about you,
guys and backstory. What drew you two together? Well, that
began about thirty two years ago. Janina and I worked
(02:09):
professionally in the San Diego area, Janita being a CPA
and a sort of five finance planner, and I owned
my own investment firm, and we found that we both
had an interest not only in working professionally with our clients,
but also in helping women understand more about money and
going from there, we created the Women's Institute for Financial
(02:31):
Education because we wanted a nonprofit, non biased way to
teach women about money. Going from there, we found out
one of the biggest financial issues that women may ever
face is going through divorce. So we created a program
for divorce. I love it and we've been running it
ever since. And I mean the fact that you guys
(02:52):
started it, that you stuck with it. I'm sure you
have seen it so many amazing both sad but also
hugely inspiring story. I spoke a couple of years ago
at the Women or at Tina Brown's Women in the World,
and we what the panel that I was on was
assigned this topic, which is women and financial issues and
how we as women so often kind of abdicate financials
(03:14):
reponsibility and it doesn't matter what level of wealth you're at.
I've had women come into my office that, you know,
they could get a table at any restaurant in Los Angeles.
They've got personal shoppers at Neiman Marcus and Barney's when
it existed, and they're sophisticated and and they say, I
am so embarrassed. I have no idea what our financial
situation is. I know kum laude at at my college,
(03:36):
and yet I got married and I kind of just
completely left it to him. And I said, well, the
good becausiness. You're never going to be in the situation again.
We're going to get you all of that information because,
as you both know, it's all discoverable as part of
the divorce process and really learn how to become the
master of your own destiny. Um. And again, it's all relative,
(03:57):
whether it's those women or men that have lived at
such a high level of wealth, or somebody that says,
I don't know how I'm going to do this because
if I leave him, I'm going to be living in
my car, or I'm not going to be able to
have the same kind of an apartment, you know, to
one bedroom, as opposed to to as opposed to studio.
So um, Janita, tell us about you. You you went
(04:18):
to Antioch in Ohio. Yes, yes, I went to Antioch
College and I became a c p A. And then
in the eighties I became a certified financial planner and
then I sold my big accounting practice in New Mexico,
and I moved to San Diego, and Candice was the
second person that I met in San Diego, and we
(04:41):
really we just started meeting every week and saying, what
can we do to help the people of San Diego
and more specifically the women of San Diego, because women
were really coming into their own in the eighties. They
were earning paychecks there, they were advancing, but so many
of them, as you said, and we're leaving the money
(05:01):
matters up to men. And then when we hit the
financial crisis of the late eighties with the stock market plunge,
they suddenly went, oh, my gosh, men don't know any
more about this than we do. They weren't able to
prevent that, and so we set up wife dot org
to start to start educating women. And then a couple
(05:24):
of years later, we started Second Saturday and Candice and
I started that program together. It's Second Saturday, what Women
Need to Know about Divorce. I've been running it ever since.
In San Diego. About twenty years ago we added a
program for men called the Men's Divorce Workshop, and then
(05:44):
about five years ago we started expanding the program around
the country and now you guys are online as well. Correct,
we are as of now, as of the virus days. Yeah,
that's taken us online. We've always at in person workshops,
and in person workshops are incredibly valuable where people can
(06:05):
get together for three or four hours, support each other,
learned together, really form a community where it's safe to
say what you need to say. And that's not possible
right now. So we've done the next best thing and
taken it online. Not for four hours, because that would
be really hard to spend four hours sitting at your computer,
(06:30):
but we've shortened it down and we've empowered our leaders
around the country to put on the program on a virtual,
online live setting. I have a question. So both of
you clearly good at finances, good probably at maths, which
I never was. I am seeing some schools. I have
(06:51):
one kid that's in elementary school and one kid that's
a freshman in high school, and I am seeing schools
and educators because we're I'm on the board at our school,
and I also obviously speak with many parents and educators
about what kids go through during divorce. But away from
that for a moment, I have seen elementary and middle
school kids being divided up by gender to learn math.
(07:15):
And I have heard that girls, little girls do better
in math classes if boys aren't in there because then
they feel more comfortable. And I'm I've torn about this,
but I thought it was really interesting. Any thoughts about that?
I mean, two women who clearly excelled, or maybe you didn't,
maybe it came to later in life. I was never
good at math, so I just hire a forensic accountant
in my cases, or somebody like one of you. What
(07:37):
do you think about that idea that we actually really
are wired differently genetically and can do better and perform
better if we're if we don't have young males in
the classroom with us. I'll take that. This is Candice.
We saw a series of studies that were conducted a
number of years ago that showed as girls reach out lessons,
(07:57):
they begin to dumb down a little bit. It because
they want to impress the boys, they don't want to
outshine them. So from that standpoint, having two separate classes
very beneficial. In fact, that's actually what we felt when
we first started Second Saturday. Having a workshop for women
only we felt was very valuable, and we see it
(08:20):
because women aren't afraid to speak up often we defer
again to men, well, they might know more, they might
know better. When you're in an all women workshop, you
get honest communication and there's no fear of being better
than or worse than somebody else. Interesting, all right, this
is I think your catch players, which if he wants
(08:41):
to tell me what your catchphrases, a man is not
a financial plan. I love that. I mean I really did.
I went to cal um and I graduated with so
many young women who I really enjoyed. And again no judgment,
but they decided that their plan was going to be
that they were going to get married to somebody wealthy
and they were going to be his wife. And if
(09:02):
there Mrs Degree right, and some of them are doing great,
and some of them have since divorced and have really realized,
I mean, even if any big support checks, they've said,
I'd so envy you. And if I had something to
tell my twentiesomething year old self, it would be like,
keep my toe in the work pond, continue to have something.
Now my kids are at school, I got nothing to
do all day, and I'm dependent on somebody else for
(09:25):
my finances. That's true. Marrying Prince Charming can really backfire
when it comes to divorce, because you've probably signed a
prenuptial with Prince Charming that says what's his will be his.
After the divorce, you've given up your earning power. You
have perhaps accumulated some assets together, but not a lot,
(09:50):
and your friends who took the career route are much
better off than you are, even though they're not getting
those big support checks. Sometimes we're paying the big support checks. Actually,
that's frustrating to yes, Canadice, and I'd like to speak
to that from a standpoint of somebody who's been married
for more than forty years. We manage money together, but
(10:13):
we also manage money separately because it's important, in my opinion,
to be a partner, not a dependent. We also, in
my career as a financial advisor working with people over
the years, I've seen it where it's the opposite. The
man is completely dependent on the woman. But what happens
if somebody passes away. Even if you remain married for
the rest of your life, you need to understand what
(10:36):
is going on and have a foot in it. You
don't have to do everything, but you do need to
be able to ask the right questions. Absolutely so, just
by the way for our listeners. Wife dot org was
recently named one of the top five hundred financial sites
by Online Investor. And you guys are the oldest nonprofit
(10:57):
organization dedicated to providing financial education to women in their
quest for financial independence. Because as they, as the ladies
told us, they founded in a nine Okay, now, some
questions about Second Saturday, which really is our topical for
what we do here on All's fair? Um, Candice tell
us what actually is Second Saturday and how is it
(11:19):
helpful to women? Particularly? So as Janine and I worked together,
we began to see that women needed to have the
information about divorce. Divorce can be one of the largest
financial transaction that a woman ever goes through, and you
need to go through divorce in a rational logical way.
Who are the farthest thing from being rational logic? So
(11:42):
Janina said, how can we begin to work and help
people to understand what divorce is because frankly, if you're
contemplating divorce or in the earliest stages, that's the best
time to figure out what you need to know. So
Second Saturday is a workshop. We began it or more
than thirty one years ago in San Diego, um. It
(12:05):
covers the three major actually three and a half major
areas in divorce. We go over the legal We typically
have an attorney that speaks about the legal things. Can
you do divorce yourself? How does divorce work? What is
a litigated divorce? What are the processes that you go through?
How much does it cost? Janita typically does the financial
(12:27):
What happens to if if you want to stay in
the house, can you divide the house? Can you should
you sell the house? What about pension plans? We have
a therapist talk about family, how to go through divorce
in a in a reasonable and comfortable way, to make
sure that your children are okay. And then we also
talk about mediation. Our goal with Second Saturday is to
(12:50):
give people the information that they need in a compassionate
and comfortable arena where they can talk with other people.
And here from the experts, our goal is not to
do the divorce for them. It's to give them the
resources that they need to have, including again what you've
been doing, Laura, as an option for people who feel
(13:13):
they want to go through divorce themselves. Amazing again, and
so much of this really is just about feeling there's
somebody there at the other end of the line, or
to go, you know, speak with as Janita said, in person,
is definitely better if possible. But just knowing that there's
a community, that there's a safe place that people have
been through before, divorce can be so isolating you feel
(13:36):
scared and lonely. I've had people of all ages say
I feel like I'm a failure. I just feel like
I feel that that's so having, as you said, other
people around who are not judging, who can who have
either been through it or going through it, super super helpful.
Janita tell us a little bit more about what Second
Saturday offers. By the way, I've spoken at some of
the ones at the Beverly Hills location on Saturdays, and
(13:58):
my partner Samantha Client has as well, and the way
that these women approach it and the appreciation is nothing
feels better. I mean, any kind of pro bono stuff
that I've done has always been huge, But really, I
thank you both from the bottom of my heart for
coming up with this, because I see at any level
of wealth, how unbelievably scary it can be, and just
(14:21):
having those workshops to go to is huge. But I
I started talking over my own question tell us a
little bit about what you guys offer at these Second Saturdays, please,
I'd be I'd be happy to you know I What
you said is absolutely correct, and what Second Saturday offers
people more than anything else is a really solid place
(14:44):
to stand because people know what they'd be getting out of.
What they're not really sure of is what they'd be
getting into. And I know that you're an attorney, but
when you get right down to it, divorce isn't about
the law. Divorce. This is about family, It's about emotion,
and it's about money, and it's very very scary. People
(15:08):
are uncertain of what happens next. We give them the
information that they need to start making decisions. We get
the uncertainty as much as we can out of their
lives so that they can take the steps forward, whatever
steps those are for them. As Candace said, we talk
(15:29):
about the legal, the emotional, the financial aspects of divorce,
ways to get things settled without going to court. And
you know what, very often people leave going like, oh
my gosh, I thought divorce was a solution, but it's
just a whole another set of problems. I'm going to
go home and work on my marriage. And they do absolutely.
(15:52):
I see that too. Usually that realization doesn't come until
I tell them what my retainer payment will be. But no,
it's happening absolutely to people. I don't know that this
is the norm, but that they find this freedom and
it will be so much easier. It's hard, it's hard
to get divorced, it's hard to stay married. You have
to really decide what you want. And I think having
(16:13):
a safe environment again with experience, people who have been
through it who can give different perspectives, is huge. I
see in my notes that UM the Flagship San Diego
Workshop has helped over ten thousand women and that you've
raised over four hundred thousand dollars for the San Diego
community in the form scholarships and educational programs. How do
(16:34):
you raise the funds? I know the second Saturday workshops
are either low cost or no cost. Correct, that's right.
It's forty five dollars for a workshop and that price
has remained the same over the last thirty five years,
so or thirty years, so you know, yeah, you know
how much that is relative to getting on the legal
train there and we then go through miracast to college.
(16:57):
We give one third back to the community through scholarships
and through other educational programs. We give one third back
to Miracles to College and one third goes to fund
our nonprofit Women's Institute for Financial Education. And you mentioned
our acronym is wife dot org. I want to share
a little bit we we came up with that concept
(17:18):
a number of years ago in terms of every woman
needs a wife. We've heard Glorious Steinham say that, And
what we want to be for all women is that support,
that sounding board, that partner to move them from fear,
especially as they are going through divorce, to help them
be more focused, to be determined, to be hopeful, and
(17:40):
really finally to be empowered to make the decisions they
need to make to make the best best choices for
their family. So true, God, I need a wife. I
thought Johnny was going to be my wife, but he
decided to be somebody else's has more more of a
side check. Yes, I've got a question for you, ladies
in the post me too. You know of it all
in the creation of your men's group. I'm just curious
(18:04):
to know if you have noticed any differences in in
the needs or the questions that come from the men's side.
The male side of this conversation versus what you're hearing
now in the female conversation post me too. Yeah. Absolutely.
The men's workshop is so different from the women's workshop.
First of all, there's fewer people there because men don't
(18:24):
tend to gather in groups and talk about things together.
We also can't find it because they won't ask for directions.
I'm not going to touch that one anyway. They've got
our GPS. So anyway, in the in the women's one,
you know, the women come in, they don't know each other,
but by the time we have the first break there
(18:47):
on a first name basis, they've been they know about
each other. By the time the workshop is over, there
leaving together to go have lunch with people that they
didn't know coming in who are now their new best friends.
And there's just a camaraderie there that that isn't present
(19:07):
by and large in the men's workshop. In the men's workshop,
the you could not have done a mathematical equation that
would have gotten the men sitting in this room further
away from each other. That's for starters, and then during
the breaks, they're all turned away from each other with
their backs to each other, talking on their cell phones
(19:30):
or looking at their cell phones. Yet the interaction there
is is not as as great as at the Women's
As for the questions, the questions are very similar, that
issues are very similar. And what we find a lot
in our women's workshop is that there's plenty of women who,
as you were saying, are paying alimony or faced with
(19:54):
paying alimony. There's plenty of women who have the career
and how long am I going to need to sup
court my soon to be ex husband? So the issues
are the same, and and and of course there's issues
because in divorce, at best, you're going to end up
with only half of what you had before. And that's
(20:16):
the whatever is left after legal cost that's going to
be divided in half, and that can be a problem. Absolutely.
Um to our listeners, ladies, what other states, cities and
states here and now? As I said, in addition to
San Diego, obviously there is one in Los Angeles, Beverly Hills.
Where else have you kind of expanded to so that
(20:37):
they can come find you? So they can anybody who
may be looking for a Second Saturday in their area
can go to Second Saturday dot com and they'll be
able to find where a local Second Saturday is and
this is really important because there's the list are different
in each state, so you really do want to have
(21:00):
the information that is in your local area. And we
now have more than one hundred twenty locations around the country,
including the Los Angeles areas you said, the Beverly Hills area,
UM Northern California, a lot on the East Coast, all
around the country. We are very very careful to fet
(21:21):
the people that we allow to run our Second Saturday programs.
Janita and I have worked out over the years figured
out a way to provide the content that we give
to the people here in San Diego. To the other
leaders that we have. They're highly qualified, and one of
the things that really really resonates is that most of
(21:45):
them have had experience with divorce, either their parents perhaps
got divorced there, or perhaps they've experienced it themselves or
their siblings, so they've had a personal act. So they're
not just professionals in their field, high qualified, certified financial
advisors or attorneys, but there are people who are compassionate
(22:05):
and want to help AM Now, as a result of
COVID nineteen, have you guys expanded to those of us
who can't, well, all of us that can't leave the
house during this time period. Yeah, it's very interesting times
because we're all in this together. We're all in the
same boat. And yes, we had our first and our
(22:29):
first of many uh second Saturday workshops online this past Saturday.
And I talked to a woman this morning who was
on that call on Saturday. It was a zoom call,
and she was so incredibly grateful to be able to
get some information. She and her husband have been having
marital issues. They're now separated. She's living in Hawaii, and
(22:54):
she was like, I didn't know where to start. I'm
ready to start a divorce and I didn't know what
to do. And then I found out from a friend
about this workshop that you were having online. She says it,
before I was just floating. Now I really feel like
I have some direction and I can take that direction.
Once this COVID nineteen lockdown is complete, then I'll be
(23:20):
able to move forward with some certainty in my life
because we're all dealing with uncertainty and divorce. How's this
going to Where is this going to end? We're dealing
with uncertainty because of COVID nineteen, and where do we
ever get out of the house again, and the courts
are closed in many jurisdictions, so there's nothing you can do.
(23:42):
It's it's paralyzing, and we're able to give people hope
and looking forward to the future by being online. And
I think that that's really a wave of the future,
as you were talking about earlier. That's amazing, Candice. Yes,
one thing what I'd like to is that I think
COVID nineteen may add considerable additional stress. Two marriages that
(24:08):
are already strained. They say there are two things that
could happen. Either after we get out of this, divorces
are going to explode, or we're going to see this
baby boom, probably the two ends of the barbelt. Both
of those things are going to happen. But you can
imagine people who are already in a stressed relationship now
are are going to experience being confined together. There's a
(24:29):
total lack of freedom. You're going to have the day
to day struggles that you've always had, but now you
perhaps are adding on emotional and financial fallout of this,
and it's going to take a toll on marriages. So again,
we're not about advocating divorce or pushing people to divorce.
We just know it's effect of life, and if people
(24:51):
find themselves in that situation, they need to understand what
their options are. And Second Saturday is there will be
online next month likely we are making it Normally it's
forty five dollars, which is a very reasonable bottle amount,
and it goes back to charities and so on. But
we're making it free as long as we're online. So
(25:13):
just know that if you are in that situation and
you want to know about your options, Second Saturday will
be online and will be available, and you can just
go to Second Saturday dot com and get the information
about your local Second Saturday. So helpful and to the
point of the fact that this time period with this
COVID nineteen and all of us sheltering in place, can
(25:35):
be so difficult and precipitate what could already be problems.
Do you work with victims of domestic violence? That's the
one thing that most of the courts are still open
forward to some degree if there are DV issues and
you need to go in on an next part day application.
Is that beyond what you guys do. I know, it's
beyond what we do. It it's over ezy. So what
(25:56):
do you tell those visitors if they have real issue
used as a result of what's happening now in their home. Yet,
so we have we have some resources, attorneys who deal
with those issues and therapists who can help them deal
with those issues. Uh, those are the people who are
usually at the in person sessions, and we can make
(26:17):
referrals as necessary. It's not at Second Saturday. We really
are the the person they can turn to, the where
they can go to be guided along with whatever they need. Yes,
and I know that we've had many users that it's
(26:37):
over easy. Say I did a Second Saturday program. They're
kind of helping me get through it their hand holding,
But in terms of completing my forms, I came to
you guys to get it all through and maybe getting
some of the other resources. So we work well together.
To the question, or to the point about the fact
that Candice, you said, you know this, this will actually
(26:57):
strengthen some relationships having to be together, having to deal
with issues, deciding to you know, wait this out, um,
and and certainly having to figure out things to do
with each other when we're quarantined. What do you ladies
feel is a more appropriate name for those teenagers that
thirteen years from now are the results of the quarantine
(27:21):
um appro creation. Do you like coronial or quarantines? Oh
that I've never heard that. That's very creative. I'm sure
somebody will will take those and run with them, you know,
just to to speak to Second Saturday for people who
are perhaps on the fence and trying to decide if
(27:42):
they if divorce is appropriate or they really want to
work on their relationship. As I said, I've been married
for forty years. Every time I have either taught Second
Saturday or been there as a lead, I've gone home
and been really nice to my husband. Absolutely, it makes
you appreciate what you've got, that's for sure. And what's
(28:05):
your secret? What's what's the secret to success? Candice? I
think I think we both respect each other and allowed
each other to be in individuals, but we all know
that we are partners for life and we're committed for life.
And the truth is I married a really great guy.
So if I hadn't married a really great guy, that
(28:25):
would be a whole different thing. But he really is
a very understanding and really respects that I have expertise
in the divorce area too. So maybe he's afraid. Danita,
who was the first person you met in Sandy, said,
Candice was the second. Who was the first person you
met when you got there. The first person was a
fellow who was the the PR person for an investment
(28:49):
company here in San Diego. And he said, Oh, I
met a woman at lunch the other day. You and
she would be perfect. Let me introduce you. And and yeah,
I am eternally grateful. Candice Injeneta, thank you for joining
us today. Ann's fair to speak with us about the
important work you guys are doing across the country at
(29:10):
wife dot org and the workshops are producing for Second Saturday.
Thank you also for your Instagram post at Second Saturday
Divorce workshops and to recap. Will you guys please tell
everyone where we can find you both online and how
a professional and our audience might start an in person
workshop in their own community. For you guys, that's great,
Thank you. We'd love to talk to qualified professionals as
(29:33):
well as get the information out for anybody who needs
the workshops online. You can find us at Second Saturday
dot com, or you can also find just general information
at our nonprofit Women's Institute for Financial Education. Which is
wife w I f E dot org. Don't go to
(29:54):
white dot com. You think that's an X rated site.
Wrong side any no affiliation with us? When you do,
go to second Saturday dot com. If you're looking for
a workshop that you can go to, you can click
on find a workshop and if you are somebody who
is a professional and would like to start a workshop
(30:16):
in your area, you will also see a button you
can click and and be put in touch with people
who can who can help you through that process. And
do you want to tell them about how they can
become members of wife dot org. Just in terms of
sending in a deductible contribute, Yes, wife dot org is
a five or one C three charitable organization, so everything
(30:39):
you give us is tax deductible. You can use the
resources there for free, but we do operate based on
contributions that we receive. And you at wife dot org
you will find a button that you can click if
you'd like to give us a dollar membership and you
can sign up right there, give us credit card information
(31:02):
and become a member of wife dot org. And Jonita,
do you want to tell people how they can contact
you directly if they have some financial planning work if
they if they need help with divorce or other financial transitions,
they can get hold of me directly. It's g wall
at plan for Wealth dot com. So ge wall at
(31:27):
plan for wealth dot com. Perfect. Thank you both so
much for being here with us today. You are doing
good work, guys. I am impressed and appreciative as members
of our community, so thank you you. You're showing everybody
the way. Thank you so much. We thank being here
great having you ladies. Thank you
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The Bobby Bones Show
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