November 25, 2024 • 37 mins
Amy & T.J. ask is: it ok to be chivalrous these days?
But, does chivalry conflict with feminism?
Your answer might depend on where you’re from, how you were raised, and whether you believe in “benevolent sexism.”
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, that folks in this episode, is chivalry dead? If
it's not, should it be? But if chivalry is dead,
should we resurrect it right here, right now in this
episode of Amy and TJ. And with that, welcome to
this episode of Amy and TJ Robes. I will start
with the question we will get We're gonna deep dive
(00:24):
into this. But generally speaking, if you're asked the question, Robock,
is chivalry dead? What is your answer?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I would say yes, by and large, yes, especially here
in New York City. I know, having lived in the South,
in the Midwest, and living up north, there are big
differences in how men and women relate and act with
and toward.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
One of them.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Wait minute, So you're saying it's not dead.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
In the South, not as much.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
It's dying maybe with the younger generations, but it's not dead.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Is it dead in New York City?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
An?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
What?
Speaker 1 (01:01):
That is a strong indictment of the men of New York. Y'all,
hear what she's saying about you, That chivalry is dead
in New York. Yes, I have said, I'm looking at
your pha You're not I'm not playing. I'm not playing.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
No, I've lived here for more than twenty years and
it's still shocking to me at how dead it is.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Let's give some context here. When we're generally talking about chivalry,
what are we talking about.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
We are talking about basic things, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
And I'm not talking we want to make sure we're
not talking about chivalry and taking care of a woman
like a sugar daddy type. That ain't chivalry. We're talking
about gestures that often that don't always have to be
romantic gesture. You can be chivalrous to your mother or
some stranger on the street.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
And also, let us preface it with this.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I am of a certain generation and age where it's
maybe it could go fifty to fifty. Not everyone appreciates chivalry.
Some people are offended by it. I actually appreciate it.
But we're talking about when a man opens a door
for you, a car door, a restaurant door. You know,
trying you've got bags, you're juggling things, you're trying to
(02:06):
get into a Dwayne read someone opens the door for you.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Someone who offers to pay for the meal.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
There's a big one.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Yes, it is.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Walks on the outside. So a man to be chivalrous
will walk on the side of the street where the
traffic is so as to to be basically a barrier
for anything from splashing mud to a swerving car. Offers
a woman his jacket if you're cold, May I offer
you your jacket, my jacket for you. That's a big
(02:39):
one when it's cold outside.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Lets women get off and on the.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Elevator first, or the subway first, or just into a
room first, giving up your seat on the subway, a
crowded bus, a crowded train, stuff correct carry her bags
for her. So I've got these heavy shopping bags or
a heavy offering to take that. Also when you're getting
on a plane, offering to help put or get those
(03:05):
heavy bags up in the overheart head compartment. To me,
those are all like things that I would consider chivalry.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Or are you saying, though you listed a bunch of
things that sound like common sense, common courtesy, I should
say you're telling me the men of New York, generally speaking,
don't do those things.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
They are not common No, And in fact, I remember
specifically juggling strollers, babies and biorns being pregnant, and the
only people who did any of those things for me
were other women.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Okay, but is that a New York thing? To where
we get conditioned here in New York too, And I
will speak on this in a second. Men here are
conditioned to woman doesn't want to be bothered. She can
do her thing, I know, not to bother. She doesn't
need my help, she doesn't want my help. So they're
conditioned now to not do those things. Is that possible?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
That's entirely possible.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
But I would also say that I think it's just
not valued as much here. I don't think it even
would be received as well here.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Wow, Okay, this is all coming out. We're talking about
it now. You and I got into a conversation, a debate.
I would even argue, we're talking about Trump's choice for
Defense Secretary, Hexseth, who was a former Fox News host.
A lot of controversy about him for a whole bunch
of reasons, but one of the things that was talked
about is in him saying that men or women should
(04:23):
not serve in frontline combat positions alongside men. He had
all reasons for this, but it got us talking a
little more a little deeper about equality and this idea
that you are treating women as a fairer or quote
unquote weaker sex that needs to be protected. And this
(04:46):
all kind of flowed into a conversation between us about
what chivalry. It's nice, and it might be a nice gesture,
but does it perpetuate an ongoing inequality between men and
women and in women? Is it perpetuating a notion of
gender norms and where we should be even though I
(05:08):
think I'm doing a nice thing by opening the door.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yes, So this is a big question mark, and I
think people and women have varying responses to that. And
I think I came up where I was the only
woman among my friend group in the nineties who were
getting married. Who chose, and this is when I was
(05:32):
living in the South, chose not to take my husband's
last name. Why.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
I didn't want to lose part of who I was.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
I would you though, just because you lose a last name.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Because I prided myself on being Amy Roboch and so
I wanted to stay Amy Robick. And just because I
went into partnership or into a marriage with someone else
didn't mean that I had to assume someone else's last
name or identity for us to be a partnership.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
So I felt strongly about that. Also, I also just.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Felt like it was part of being someone's property. Back
in the day, it was though women didn't have rights.
Women couldn't vote, they couldn't own property, they didn't have
a say in a lot of things. They couldn't enter
into a contract. So I just felt like all of that,
for all of those reasons, I didn't want to make
it that deep. I just really from the time I
(06:22):
was eleven years old, I remember thinking, I'm not going
to change my name.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Why would I change my name?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
And so that was maybe the big feminist gesture that
I chose.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
To enact when I was in my early twenties.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
And when I did that, I also struggled because then
I was told by people, Well, if you're going to
take that track and you're going to not take your
husband's last name, if you're going to be the breadwinner,
if you're going to ask that your family move for
your job, well then you can't also assume or ask
(06:55):
or want a man to open a door for you.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Well, some things here, because you talk about you taking
somebody's last name and you being a breadwinner should not
be connected. You could you could whether the breadwinner or
not should not be a part of this conversation.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Is it I agree with you, But I was told
by many people and men included, that if I was
going to take that track, that I couldn't then also
have this expectation that somebody was going to take care
of me in another gesture, in another way, that if
I was going down that road, then I needed to
go down that road by myself and take care of
myself and have zero expectations that a man should do
(07:32):
anything above and beyond for me that I could technically
do it for myself.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Again, we mud eat the waters way earlier than I
thought we were going to here.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
I am telling you I wasn't. I was actually a
little wounded by that. But I accepted it and said, Okay,
what by the thought that I couldn't, that I couldn't
be a strong, powerful, independent woman and at the same
time appreciate like and want a man to also do
some of those I think very beautiful or give me
(08:00):
some of those beautiful gestures that I appreciate, And.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
That is where it would make me feel loved.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
But that is where people will say, you can't have
it both ways. Okay, do you think you can can
a strong, powerful woman who is pushing for equality, who
is pushing to for that for us all to see
women as absolute equals. Man. Woman, you can do it,
I can do it. I don't need you to pay
for my meal. I don't need you to open my door.
I don't need your coat, don't I don't need anything.
(08:26):
Can you not accept those gestures but at the same
time be promoting strength, equality and capability of women.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
I believe you can.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
But it took me a while to get there because
I felt like I was asking for too much, because
I was told I was asking for too much, that
I couldn't have it both ways.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
I try you asking for to door.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
It doesn't seem like a stretch.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
I agree with you.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
I agree with you, but I think that you know,
in a way, for some men, it might be threatening
or frustrating, like, oh, oh, you're not going to stay home,
You're not going to take a beta role.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
You're not. But ye, at the same time, you want
me to do this for you and that.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
For you, And I just feel like I kind of
assumed I shouldn't so, But I truly believe I not
every woman. Probably a lot of women won't agree with me,
but I do believe there are differences in genders for
the most part, we do have things that biologically we
are probably not in all cases, but in a lot
of cases more predisposed to be good at. It doesn't
(09:30):
take away from my ability to put my own bag up,
or to carry my own bag, or to open my
own door, to have a man do it for me.
I consider that to be something beautiful. I appreciate it.
I think it's a wonderful gesture that someone is there
who is bigger and stronger than me in most instances,
(09:53):
who's just saying, hey, let me get that for you.
I don't take offense to that. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Okay, you are the problem Robes, according to many women,
because in wanting that and accepting that what you're doing
are perpetuating the notion of benevolent sexism. Benevolent sexism as
some of you may be familiar, We weren't. We had
(10:20):
to do a little bit of a deeper dive. But
this is the idea of benevolent sexism. Yes, you might
have good intentions, Yes you may be well meaning, but
what you are doing is reinforcing traditional gender roles and
maintaining male dominance. Yes, Robes, you by wanting or appreciating
or even yes, expecting that you are holding women down. Robes.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Well, I don't expect it, I can say that, but
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
I thought you were going to jump on the part
of course you're not holding women down.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
I thought that was the and I, well, yes, so
here's the deal.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
I actually feel like it, maybe because I've lived enough
life and I have had wonderful opportunities that other women
who've paved the way have helped at least me get
to where I've gotten in my life professionally, but I
have nothing to prove like. I know I can do
those things, but it doesn't mean that I don't appreciate
(11:16):
someone else coming in and helping me. It makes I
do feel loved. I do feel protected. Is it wrong
for a woman to enjoy feeling protected? Is it wrong
for a woman to enjoy feeling taken care of?
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Even though I can take care of myself and I
have been taken care of myself.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Hey, yes, different opinions on these things. But I asked
the question of about how the question of how does
a woman feel? How does everybody listening? How does it
make you feel when a man, maybe he's a stranger,
maybe it's somebody you're dating opens a door for you.
I love it. Feel does it make you feel when
you're on the first or second or whatever date and
the guy pays? How does that make you feel?
Speaker 3 (11:55):
I appreciate it?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Okay. How you feel when the guy walks on the
outside the sidewalk that you're on? I love it, opens
the car door, give you a jacket when he's cold.
I love that when you're cold, Right, all of that,
you love all of that. So on the other side
of that, how do you feel when a man doesn't
open the door? How do you feel when a man
doesn't offer to pay for the meal? How do you
(12:18):
feel when a guy doesn't pull out his umbrella and
make sure you're under it when it's raining. How do
you feel when a guy doesn't do those things? Do
you look at him and you think what's wrong with you?
Speaker 3 (12:27):
No?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I don't, especially I think after having, like I said,
I lived in New York City, I think initially maybe
I did feel that a little bit.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
You've gotten trained not to expect it.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
Yes, that's unfortunate, Yes I have.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
And you look, my dad did all of those things,
so it might be different with your experience growing up.
But my dad did those things for me and I
appreciated it. And he also taught me how to balance
my own checkbook. He also taught me how to pay
my own taxes. He, you know, he and my mom
you know, was a part of those conversations as well.
But so I do think that I think both things
(13:01):
can exist, and it doesn't mean anything negative. I think
it's how we view it and how we look at it.
And the least of my problems is a man opening
the door for me. That is the least of my
problems as a woman, and it probably takes away if
you and so I find it interesting. I get it
(13:23):
that women complain about that are offended by that, but
I just don't think that men, in doing so are saying, Hey,
you weak ass woman who can't open her own door,
let me do this for you. I just really think
it's a matter of being polite, a matter of being
a gentleman. I appreciate a gentleman, and I don't understand
why we can't appreciate those gestures, those moments of chivalry
(13:46):
and at the same time have that not take away
from our own power. I don't need you to do it,
and I wouldn't expect you to do it, but I
really like it.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
When you do.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
All right, Well, that expectation is always a key here,
but I have obviously, I'm born raised in the South,
my mother father, both of them from the Delta, Arkansas.
From the moment, and we talked about this, from the
moment I was physically able, my mother did not open
another door for herself. Right. She would walk up to
(14:17):
a store, the front door of a store, and just
stand there and look at me. You're forgetting something. I
was three years old when I was physically able to
open a door. I was trained, and all of my
thinking now I was thinking about stories of my life.
All of my training as a gentleman or doing those
chivalrous things came from my mother. No offense, Pops. I'm
(14:37):
not saying you didn't teach me anything. But my mom
was on it and trained me from birth to do
these things. And so I get Yes, it happened in
New York. I remember traveling a line from Atlanta to
New York and run into people in the airport and
I would say, I would try to hold a woman's
bag open the door. God forbid, you say yes, ma'am, no, ma'am.
(15:00):
But I have absolutely been not quite yelled at, but
gotten onto by women like how dare you? I got
my door? I don't need you for this, I don't
need you for that. And it was I was really
taken aback by that idea of doing these aren't women.
There's just a random lady in the airport. This is
not somebody I'm trying to take out on the date.
(15:21):
I'm not out, but I was. I was taken aback.
So to your point of you've gotten accustomed to that,
because now I've gotten accustomed to already getting out of
the training that my mama gave me. Right.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
But the good news is we're perfect together on this
because you were trained to do it, and I am
so appreciative of you doing it because it's been lacking
for two decades.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
This is one of the areas that we really really
are vibing.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
I really don't know any better, So I am. I
am fascinated by this conversation, which is going to continue.
So for a lot of us, we don't even know
where this comes from. This idea of women and children first, right,
this idea that for some reason we're supposed to make
sure women go first, or they are the first to
get off the ship. But we gotta save the women first.
This is an idea that experts say, or at least
(16:13):
the historian say, goes back to the eighteen hundreds on
a particular ship. We're gonna get into the details of
where this comes from in the first place. Stick with
us here, folks, we're going to be right back here
on Amy and TJ. All right, we continue here on
(16:38):
Amy and TJ having a discussion about benevolent sexism. Yes, fellas,
you think you're doing a nice thing and a sweet
gesture by opening the door, being chivalrous, but a lot
of people think that's just perpetuating old gender norms and
ideas that women are the fairer or weaker sex. So
even though you're trying to do a nice thing, it
ultimately is keeping women back. I with you, Well, we've
(17:03):
been friends for ten years, but before we were ever
in a relationship, you and I went out alive or
drinks or have a go, have a lunch or something
here and there. There is not a single point in
our relationship, including now that I've known you, not in
friendship relationship. That's not a single point that you didn't
make more money than me, and at some points it
(17:26):
was significantly more money than me. Yet every time we
went out, who was picking up the bill?
Speaker 3 (17:34):
You were?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
But I also offered and a couple of times tried
to venmo you and that didn't go well, We're going
to go well, And you would always just say it
all evens out in the end, and look, I actually
I don't think anybody likes to feel like they owe
somebody something. But we had enough of a friendship where
(17:57):
I guess eventually now maybe it has even out, but I.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Some it hasn't.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
But I'm okay with that.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
No, we ahead shot.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
But I think some some women don't appreciate the feeling
that somehow now they owe something, and that's something that
we put on ourselves. And so I would just ask,
you know, I would never demonize somebody who is willing
(18:27):
to pay.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Especially when there's zero expects.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Now, if there's an expectation attached to paying for it,
that is a whole other issue. But that was never
the case. You're the only man I know in my
life that I can recall who has always consistently insisted
on paying no matter what.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
You can. You can go ask any friend of mine,
amy female friend of mine. This has been the case
forever we go out, and I just it's an automatic.
The guy pays. Now, a lot of people hear that, Okay,
that's ridiculous if your friends, and that's fine. But in
my mind and my mindset, the way I've always been trained,
that's what should happen. But these days, how is that
(19:09):
view these days for people when they go out, when
they first date, second date, third date? Who if the
guy pays, is it an automatic? Does the woman expect it?
What happens now? I'm looking at the younger folks that
have in our own I actually don't know what the
expectation is.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Celia and Andy are here, and I can only base
this off of some of the dating shows I've been watching.
And I told you I was really shocked because I'm
watching the new Love is Blind here in the US,
and this one woman as she's in the pods talking
to potential suitors or potential husbands, making it very clear
(19:44):
that she wants to be taken care of, and that
she doesn't want it to be fifty to fifty, and
that she likes a masculine male and she wants to
be and everyone was shocked, like jaw dropping, like they
were like, this does not happen.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
It's She's that was different. But I think she is
an outlier.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
But Celia, I'll ask you, like, what do you think
about who pays for what on dates?
Speaker 5 (20:08):
I think it definitely depends on the longevity of the relationship.
I think if it's a first date, you kind of
reach for your like you reach in your purse like
you're about to pay, Like you know, I'm not grabbing anything.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
But you're hoping that he's gonna pay.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
Yeah, I'm just pretending like I'm going to but I'm not.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
For everybody listening, Solia, we are in line. This is
exactly the way a date should go. Really, we don't
expect you to pay. Just that little gesture that you're
making an effort, just a little lunge towards your purse
a little bit, just a little bit, and we look
at that and go, Okay, she's she's game. She's a
good one. I got I got a good one here.
(20:51):
We have no problem paying that little thing. That's exactly
how a date should go.
Speaker 5 (20:54):
Yeah, you gotta pretend exactly it.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
It's about the expectations.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
If you think that the girl is expecting you to pay,
you feel completely differently about paying than just saying this
is what I want to do, versus this is what
she expects me.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
See, this is me. I think every woman should expect
me to pay. But I don't need her to sit
there with her arms folded when the check comes. Right,
that's what I'm saying. I don't need her to give
an attitude of you're gonna get that way. No, No,
it's okay, we're told, But still I am. I feel
(21:30):
like I am perpetuating this negative idea of gender roles.
At least I'm told that, right. I don't feel that necessarily,
But everything I hear and read and all, my goodness
is different. Times has got to be this way. So
now I'm a little gun shy on some of these things.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
I've watched you get scolded.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
I've watched you get scolded by women who are upset
that you refer to them as ma'am, that you are
using polite terminology with the door. And I will admit
we talked about when we were friends. I was still
in that mindset because I was I was.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Told I can't have it all. I can't have it
both ways.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
So you would see me struggling with the heavy bag
to go put up in the overhead compartment when we
were traveling for work, and you'd say, let me get
that robes and I'd say, no, no, no, no, I've
got it.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Okay, go back. This is before we traveled together and
we were working, right, Yes, we traveled together a lot
when we were working. Yes, And we get on the plane,
we're boarding together, and what do you always did? We
usually sit next to each other, sit together, but gotta
put that bag in the overhead, that heavy bag in
the overhead.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yes, and so I will get on my tippy toes,
I will grunt, I will push, I will do what
it takes to like somehow ling it up there. And
so now TJ looks at me, he goes, who's a
big girl?
Speaker 4 (22:45):
No, yeah, understand, who's a big girl?
Speaker 3 (22:47):
In front of everybody?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
I think I gave you two go's at it on
a flight and you said, no, I got I got
I got it. I'm seeing you struggle. I'm standing literally
right next to you. You don't want me to help
you with your bag? Okay? So now here we are,
two years into our relationship. We fly together all the time.
Now I refuse to help you put your bag in
the overhead. And when we travel, we used okay, we
(23:10):
bored first. Everybody's around kind of a little intimate, little
area in the front, and when you're doing it, I
don't yell this out, but like you said, I make
sure everybody can hear. Oh, who's a big who's a
big Amy? Look at look at Amy? Who's that big girl?
She got our bag?
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Good job? And this goes on. So she starts laughing,
and now she's struggling with the bag even more. She's waiting,
and I keep it going to you go almost you
almost got who's a big girl?
Speaker 4 (23:37):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (23:38):
I think Actually we have even had a cabin of
folks clap after you do it because I was egging
them on.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
I believe a couple another man has actually come in
and helped because struggling.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
I didn't feel any kind of way about it. Knock
yourself out, dude, But.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
To that point, I actually reflected about why did I resist.
I've even s I seen my twenty one year old
daughter resist having someone hold a bag for her when
she's got a heavy bag. She's five to two, she's
a little gal. And it's pride and it's somehow, Well,
if I let someone help me, I'm acknowledging I'm weaker.
(24:16):
And here's the deal. I've gotten to point out, babe,
where I am and would be.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
But I get it.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
If you're still harboring.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Any ill, well, totally fine, and like laughing at myself
for somehow thinking I'm proving something to the world or
to myself that I'm strong, and that is actually silly.
And so I think when we all start feeling offended
or somehow saying when you're doing something kind that it's offensive,
(24:43):
or when you're doing something to be helpful that I'm
now annoyed, that is on me as the woman. Because
if I actually really am confident in who I am
and what I'm capable of and what I've accomplished in
my life and what I've yet to accomplish, you can
just ex accept a gesture as kind and helpful and
not take it personally as some sort of slight against
(25:05):
my physical ability.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
But do you understand why some women might yes, wait,
wait a minute, you think I need help? Do you
see why I was like that?
Speaker 2 (25:13):
I mean, I had that mindset on a few certain
random things including putting my bag in the overhead and
I and now, if I really do sit back and
am honest with myself, that's my problem that somehow that's
something that I am assigning to myself that no one
is actually intending. I think so many times this is
about misunderstanding and what the intentions are. And if you
(25:36):
can just accept a gift, it's hard to accept help.
It is hard to accept help, but sometimes I do
need it. I am physically inferior to you, TJ. I
can say that, and it's okay because that's just the
way it is emotionally.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
I am just kidding.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
It depends on the subject, and it depends on how
much sleep we've each got. And I knew you were,
but I was actually trying to give an honest answer.
But I think sometimes and not Look, these are generalizations.
Not all women in man are but but generally speaking, yes,
women are physically inferior APPS And I tell my daughters
(26:17):
this when they're walking the streets of New York City.
Don't get this bravado about yourself that you're just as
strong as men when it comes to personal safety and
physical safety. Acknowledging that you're not is actually a part
of being intelligent and knowing where your where your strengths are,
and also acknowledging where your weaknesses are. It doesn't make
you any less of a human. It's just acknowledging what is.
(26:37):
And I think sometimes are so afraid to do that
as women.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
And I know what you meant, and and it sounds bad.
I know what you mean by physically inferior. I don't
want anybody to jump on that and.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
Try to drink.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
But it's it's it's it's provable, it's it's fat, it's
physiologically okay, a fact that just men generally are built taller, stronger.
It's just that's just a fact. So that's what you're saying.
Generally speaking, Obviously there are plenty of women out there
with my ass and Andy's ass over it. That's not
what we're talking about. But generally speaking to your point
(27:09):
of there are times you don't want your daughters to
be traveling in certain places you I've heard you say this,
Ye are there going to be guys with you? Yes,
you have some dudes with you. Are you traveling to
whatever country?
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Both of my daughters initially got offended, and I said
to them this is a problem if you can't acknowledge
where you are in the world and the fact that
sometimes it is helpful for your physical safety to be
with men and not just women, and certainly not by yourself,
(27:41):
whereas if a man was traveling by himself my brother,
I would be far less concerned of what I'm saying,
like my mom.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
My mom was, and my dad were way.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
More concerned with me walking back from a party by
myself on campus versus my brother. And I think sometimes
we get so caught up in equality that we aren't
acknowledged things that actually could make a difference in your
personal safement.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
I'm laughing at the idea of my parents at some
point saying to me, when I'm walking somewhere or traveling,
you got some other guys with you. Obviously they do.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
So we like there are things that we just need
to acknowledge, and I think it's okay. And I even
had to get into my own headspace as we were
talking about this as to why I have acted certain ways,
and it's all something that I think us women feel
like we have to prove something, and I think a
lot of times if we just acknowledge what is and
(28:31):
accept what is, and also just feel good and strong
about who we are and what we're capable of. It
doesn't take away from my strength to let you hold
it back for me, or to to to say sure, babe,
that would actually be wonderful, Like can you lean into
that and still be a feminist?
Speaker 3 (28:50):
I believe?
Speaker 1 (28:50):
So let me ask this, what should every guy do
and what should every woman expect? What I'm talking about
the absolute bottom basement base that every woman should expect
from a guy, and that the guy should absolutely do.
And I go back to holding open a door that
seems I mean, it doesn't matter if it's the person
you're dating, it doesn't matter if it's your mama, it's
(29:13):
a stranger on the street, if a woman is walking,
I don't know any other option but to open the door. And,
by the way, fellas, if the door swings open towards you,
then you hold the door open and she goes first.
If the door swings out, you walk through first and
hold the door and let her exit. That's just some
one on one for the fellas out there. That's the
way it should go. But is that the bottom line? Basic?
(29:36):
Can we all agree on something that a woman should expect?
From a guy, and a guy should absolutely be doing
no matter what.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
The only thing I could say that's absolute is respect,
and that it's just to respect where that person is.
And it might not be some blanket thing where all women,
you know, expect it, but we all can expect respect
so wherever we are, whatever we feel, and maybe not
get personally offended if a woman says thank you, I'd
rather open my own door by all means, you know.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
And I just think if we can just respect where
we all are.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
But also I just think it's important as a woman
to ask yourself why you feel the way you feel
and way and understand maybe why a man would feel
the way he feels.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
And that both are okay, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
It is okay, I think.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
So this goes back to and again I'll say we're
going to mention this, but the idea of women and
children first. This idea obviously it's understandable with children, right,
they can't oftentimes protect themselves. This goes back to a
ship that went down in eighteen fifty two off the
coast of South Africa, the HMS Birkenhead. The HMS Birkenhead
where at the time the reports are that the captain
(30:42):
at the time saw all the men scrambling and filling up,
and they were going to essentially take up all the
spots on the for the boats, for the rescue boats
that are attached, for the life rafts, and they made
a decision, no, we are going to make sure there
are spots for the women and the children first. That
continued obviously with the Titanic.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
I thought you were going to say this Titanic it
was it predates, it predates.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
So but this was the idea that kind of got rolling.
To this day, we still think women and children first.
We still think women and children. And why do we
think that, because these are the folks that need to
be protected first in society. This came up again with
the conflict in Gaza, where so many hostages were there
women and children arguing should be released. Well, that woman
(31:30):
there is healthier than this eighty year old guy, right,
So it doesn't always work that way. That might be
an eighty year old man I need to help with
his bag on the airplane sometimes. So it's just it's
not a one size fits all sometimes. So these debates
happening now with Hegseth with the Defense Department. So it
came up and you and I had I think we
lost like fifteen minutes of work time doing our morning
(31:52):
run podcast because we stopped and we got into a
back and forth about this. It's just interesting to talk about,
and certainly with the way I've been trained the way
you've been trained, essentially by your dad, I've seen him
do all of this with your mom constantly.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Just he's very chivalrous with my mom.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
And I saw that as an example my whole life,
and so to me it represented love. It didn't represent
being put down or being marginalized or being considered less
than it was about love. And so for me, it
was about love and respect. And that might be the
reason why that's the lens I view it with. But
I got confused when I took on a different role
(32:28):
in my life that I didn't see other women around
me take on, which was, you know, to be the breadwinner,
to be the person moving the family, to be the
person who kept her last name. So I felt like, oh, well,
then I guess I can't expect or want even once
you know, those other things to happen. I felt like
I had to choose between the two, and I think
(32:50):
now I'm at a place in my life, especially with
you in my life, and knowing how chivalrous you are
naturally or you were trained to be from a young age.
I've actually I had a conversation with my mom about
it because I think I used to be more like
my daughter's like, I can do it all.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
I don't need a man.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Of course, Fine, that's great, But what's wrong with enjoying
having someone show you a little bit of love?
Speaker 1 (33:14):
And that's all it is. It's it really is love.
And there are some things and I think getting up
from the table when a woman gets up from the
table is one thing. I don't see a lot. Actually
I don't see any other guy in life do that, but.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
It impressed the hell out of me when I saw
you do it.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
I was like, Wow, this guy is respect It felt
like respect.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
It's not it wasn't offensive, it was respectful.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
I've done that before in my life. I've stood up
you at a restaurant. You stand up when a woman
leaves a table. Doesn't have to be your woman, just
any woman leaves a table, And I say, your woman,
by not this, she's a possession.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
Okay, given, where's this conversation is gone?
Speaker 1 (33:54):
I don't need to make that mistake. Andy, can we
edit that out?
Speaker 5 (33:57):
Please?
Speaker 4 (33:57):
Take no, no, no, we know what you mean.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
But any woman gets up from the table, and this
is one that Chuck for the past twenty years almost
you know, I've been out with Chuck plenty times. He
I have been ripped by him for years because no
other guy ever stands up. So if I stand up
when a woman leaves the table and no other guy does,
it makes the other guys look bad. So I have
(34:22):
been getting ripped for that for a long time. The
thing on the other side of the on the sidewalk,
that's an automatic I think sometimes with you, you and
I have almost tripped over each other because you're trying
to figure out where you're going because I'm just we're
doing a little ballet. I'm trying to get to the
other side of you, and we switched.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Side of the street.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
I have to switch the side up on with you,
Witch purses because we're holding hands.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
So, yeah, it's a little bit of a dance that happens.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
But I do appreciate the gesture.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
The car door is a big one.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Yeah, that's been That's been a huge change in my life,
and I like it.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Yeah, guys, even if you are the one driving, you
still go to the passenger side and you her in first.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
It makes me feel loved.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
It's just an autumn because I'm actually it's funny because
I feel embarrassed saying it, because I again, I've been
conditioned for so long to not want that, and I
like it.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
I'm just gonna admit it. I love it, and I
want some more of it.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Well, I don't know any other way to be. And
I can't remember the young lady's name that works the
front of your building. I can't remember her name, but
I'm saying I have at that door. I have been
in standoffs with women at that door before because they
were trying to tell me to come out. I said, nope,
you come on. Hey, No, no, no, you come on. Nope,
ma'am you first. And then you know what I end with.
(35:43):
I say, nope, my mama wouldn't have it any other way.
And when I say.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
That, okay, yeah, they get it.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I'm not gonna win this guy over. But it is
is just training. Mama thinks it's not anything I could
take credit for. It's just it's just muscle memory for me.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
I guess I should thank your mama. Well, thank you,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
I'm a home So this is an interesting This is
the last question I want to ask you. Does chivalry
have to go away in order for us to eventually
get to full gender quality.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
I don't believe so, because I think there are always
going to be differences between the sexes, whether we like
to admit them or not. And I think we can
compliment one another. We don't have to be stereotypical and
fingerpoint and make it.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
A negative thing. Can be a positive thing.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
You know. And I think we can help each other
in a lot of ways. And I think that it
doesn't keep any one of us down by accepting love,
accepting respect, accepting help. And I think the two can
coexist if we can all get in the right headspace.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Bumby lunch when we get out of here.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
Sure, not a problem at all.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
All right, folks, We appreciate you listening. As always. You
can find us on official Instagram page at Amy and
TJ Podcast. You can find us on our personal pages
on Instagram as well. And yes, we'd appreciate you chiming
in on this one respectfully.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
In the spirit of love and respect, yes, we'd love
to hear your two cents all right.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
We also appreciate you listening, as always was a you.
Next Game,
Hey, that folks in this episode, is chivalry dead? If
it's not, should it be? But if chivalry is dead,
should we resurrect it right here, right now in this
episode of Amy and TJ. And with that, welcome to
this episode of Amy and TJ Robes. I will start
with the question we will get We're gonna deep dive
(00:24):
into this. But generally speaking, if you're asked the question, Robock,
is chivalry dead? What is your answer?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I would say yes, by and large, yes, especially here
in New York City. I know, having lived in the South,
in the Midwest, and living up north, there are big
differences in how men and women relate and act with
and toward.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
One of them.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Wait minute, So you're saying it's not dead.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
In the South, not as much.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
It's dying maybe with the younger generations, but it's not dead.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Is it dead in New York City?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
An?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
What?
Speaker 1 (01:01):
That is a strong indictment of the men of New York. Y'all,
hear what she's saying about you, That chivalry is dead
in New York. Yes, I have said, I'm looking at
your pha You're not I'm not playing. I'm not playing.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
No, I've lived here for more than twenty years and
it's still shocking to me at how dead it is.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Let's give some context here. When we're generally talking about chivalry,
what are we talking about.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
We are talking about basic things, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
And I'm not talking we want to make sure we're
not talking about chivalry and taking care of a woman
like a sugar daddy type. That ain't chivalry. We're talking
about gestures that often that don't always have to be
romantic gesture. You can be chivalrous to your mother or
some stranger on the street.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
And also, let us preface it with this.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I am of a certain generation and age where it's
maybe it could go fifty to fifty. Not everyone appreciates chivalry.
Some people are offended by it. I actually appreciate it.
But we're talking about when a man opens a door
for you, a car door, a restaurant door. You know,
trying you've got bags, you're juggling things, you're trying to
(02:06):
get into a Dwayne read someone opens the door for you.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Someone who offers to pay for the meal.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
There's a big one.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Yes, it is.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Walks on the outside. So a man to be chivalrous
will walk on the side of the street where the
traffic is so as to to be basically a barrier
for anything from splashing mud to a swerving car. Offers
a woman his jacket if you're cold, May I offer
you your jacket, my jacket for you. That's a big
(02:39):
one when it's cold outside.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Lets women get off and on the.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Elevator first, or the subway first, or just into a
room first, giving up your seat on the subway, a
crowded bus, a crowded train, stuff correct carry her bags
for her. So I've got these heavy shopping bags or
a heavy offering to take that. Also when you're getting
on a plane, offering to help put or get those
(03:05):
heavy bags up in the overheart head compartment. To me,
those are all like things that I would consider chivalry.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Or are you saying, though you listed a bunch of
things that sound like common sense, common courtesy, I should
say you're telling me the men of New York, generally speaking,
don't do those things.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
They are not common No, And in fact, I remember
specifically juggling strollers, babies and biorns being pregnant, and the
only people who did any of those things for me
were other women.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Okay, but is that a New York thing? To where
we get conditioned here in New York too, And I
will speak on this in a second. Men here are
conditioned to woman doesn't want to be bothered. She can
do her thing, I know, not to bother. She doesn't
need my help, she doesn't want my help. So they're
conditioned now to not do those things. Is that possible?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
That's entirely possible.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
But I would also say that I think it's just
not valued as much here. I don't think it even
would be received as well here.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Wow, Okay, this is all coming out. We're talking about
it now. You and I got into a conversation, a debate.
I would even argue, we're talking about Trump's choice for
Defense Secretary, Hexseth, who was a former Fox News host.
A lot of controversy about him for a whole bunch
of reasons, but one of the things that was talked
about is in him saying that men or women should
(04:23):
not serve in frontline combat positions alongside men. He had
all reasons for this, but it got us talking a
little more a little deeper about equality and this idea
that you are treating women as a fairer or quote
unquote weaker sex that needs to be protected. And this
(04:46):
all kind of flowed into a conversation between us about
what chivalry. It's nice, and it might be a nice gesture,
but does it perpetuate an ongoing inequality between men and
women and in women? Is it perpetuating a notion of
gender norms and where we should be even though I
(05:08):
think I'm doing a nice thing by opening the door.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yes, So this is a big question mark, and I
think people and women have varying responses to that. And
I think I came up where I was the only
woman among my friend group in the nineties who were
getting married. Who chose, and this is when I was
(05:32):
living in the South, chose not to take my husband's
last name. Why.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
I didn't want to lose part of who I was.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
I would you though, just because you lose a last name.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Because I prided myself on being Amy Roboch and so
I wanted to stay Amy Robick. And just because I
went into partnership or into a marriage with someone else
didn't mean that I had to assume someone else's last
name or identity for us to be a partnership.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
So I felt strongly about that. Also, I also just.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Felt like it was part of being someone's property. Back
in the day, it was though women didn't have rights.
Women couldn't vote, they couldn't own property, they didn't have
a say in a lot of things. They couldn't enter
into a contract. So I just felt like all of that,
for all of those reasons, I didn't want to make
it that deep. I just really from the time I
(06:22):
was eleven years old, I remember thinking, I'm not going
to change my name.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Why would I change my name?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
And so that was maybe the big feminist gesture that
I chose.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
To enact when I was in my early twenties.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
And when I did that, I also struggled because then
I was told by people, Well, if you're going to
take that track and you're going to not take your
husband's last name, if you're going to be the breadwinner,
if you're going to ask that your family move for
your job, well then you can't also assume or ask
(06:55):
or want a man to open a door for you.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Well, some things here, because you talk about you taking
somebody's last name and you being a breadwinner should not
be connected. You could you could whether the breadwinner or
not should not be a part of this conversation.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Is it I agree with you, But I was told
by many people and men included, that if I was
going to take that track, that I couldn't then also
have this expectation that somebody was going to take care
of me in another gesture, in another way, that if
I was going down that road, then I needed to
go down that road by myself and take care of
myself and have zero expectations that a man should do
(07:32):
anything above and beyond for me that I could technically
do it for myself.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Again, we mud eat the waters way earlier than I
thought we were going to here.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
I am telling you I wasn't. I was actually a
little wounded by that. But I accepted it and said, Okay,
what by the thought that I couldn't, that I couldn't
be a strong, powerful, independent woman and at the same
time appreciate like and want a man to also do
some of those I think very beautiful or give me
(08:00):
some of those beautiful gestures that I appreciate, And.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
That is where it would make me feel loved.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
But that is where people will say, you can't have
it both ways. Okay, do you think you can can
a strong, powerful woman who is pushing for equality, who
is pushing to for that for us all to see
women as absolute equals. Man. Woman, you can do it,
I can do it. I don't need you to pay
for my meal. I don't need you to open my door.
I don't need your coat, don't I don't need anything.
(08:26):
Can you not accept those gestures but at the same
time be promoting strength, equality and capability of women.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
I believe you can.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
But it took me a while to get there because
I felt like I was asking for too much, because
I was told I was asking for too much, that
I couldn't have it both ways.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
I try you asking for to door.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
It doesn't seem like a stretch.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
I agree with you.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
I agree with you, but I think that you know,
in a way, for some men, it might be threatening
or frustrating, like, oh, oh, you're not going to stay home,
You're not going to take a beta role.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
You're not. But ye, at the same time, you want
me to do this for you and that.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
For you, And I just feel like I kind of
assumed I shouldn't so, But I truly believe I not
every woman. Probably a lot of women won't agree with me,
but I do believe there are differences in genders for
the most part, we do have things that biologically we
are probably not in all cases, but in a lot
of cases more predisposed to be good at. It doesn't
(09:30):
take away from my ability to put my own bag up,
or to carry my own bag, or to open my
own door, to have a man do it for me.
I consider that to be something beautiful. I appreciate it.
I think it's a wonderful gesture that someone is there
who is bigger and stronger than me in most instances,
(09:53):
who's just saying, hey, let me get that for you.
I don't take offense to that. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Okay, you are the problem Robes, according to many women,
because in wanting that and accepting that what you're doing
are perpetuating the notion of benevolent sexism. Benevolent sexism as
some of you may be familiar, We weren't. We had
(10:20):
to do a little bit of a deeper dive. But
this is the idea of benevolent sexism. Yes, you might
have good intentions, Yes you may be well meaning, but
what you are doing is reinforcing traditional gender roles and
maintaining male dominance. Yes, Robes, you by wanting or appreciating
or even yes, expecting that you are holding women down. Robes.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Well, I don't expect it, I can say that, but
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
I thought you were going to jump on the part
of course you're not holding women down.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
I thought that was the and I, well, yes, so
here's the deal.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
I actually feel like it, maybe because I've lived enough
life and I have had wonderful opportunities that other women
who've paved the way have helped at least me get
to where I've gotten in my life professionally, but I
have nothing to prove like. I know I can do
those things, but it doesn't mean that I don't appreciate
(11:16):
someone else coming in and helping me. It makes I
do feel loved. I do feel protected. Is it wrong
for a woman to enjoy feeling protected? Is it wrong
for a woman to enjoy feeling taken care of?
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Even though I can take care of myself and I
have been taken care of myself.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Hey, yes, different opinions on these things. But I asked
the question of about how the question of how does
a woman feel? How does everybody listening? How does it
make you feel when a man, maybe he's a stranger,
maybe it's somebody you're dating opens a door for you.
I love it. Feel does it make you feel when
you're on the first or second or whatever date and
the guy pays? How does that make you feel?
Speaker 3 (11:55):
I appreciate it?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Okay. How you feel when the guy walks on the
outside the sidewalk that you're on? I love it, opens
the car door, give you a jacket when he's cold.
I love that when you're cold, Right, all of that,
you love all of that. So on the other side
of that, how do you feel when a man doesn't
open the door? How do you feel when a man
doesn't offer to pay for the meal? How do you
(12:18):
feel when a guy doesn't pull out his umbrella and
make sure you're under it when it's raining. How do
you feel when a guy doesn't do those things? Do
you look at him and you think what's wrong with you?
Speaker 3 (12:27):
No?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I don't, especially I think after having, like I said,
I lived in New York City, I think initially maybe
I did feel that a little bit.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
You've gotten trained not to expect it.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
Yes, that's unfortunate, Yes I have.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
And you look, my dad did all of those things,
so it might be different with your experience growing up.
But my dad did those things for me and I
appreciated it. And he also taught me how to balance
my own checkbook. He also taught me how to pay
my own taxes. He, you know, he and my mom
you know, was a part of those conversations as well.
But so I do think that I think both things
(13:01):
can exist, and it doesn't mean anything negative. I think
it's how we view it and how we look at it.
And the least of my problems is a man opening
the door for me. That is the least of my
problems as a woman, and it probably takes away if
you and so I find it interesting. I get it
(13:23):
that women complain about that are offended by that, but
I just don't think that men, in doing so are saying, Hey,
you weak ass woman who can't open her own door,
let me do this for you. I just really think
it's a matter of being polite, a matter of being
a gentleman. I appreciate a gentleman, and I don't understand
why we can't appreciate those gestures, those moments of chivalry
(13:46):
and at the same time have that not take away
from our own power. I don't need you to do it,
and I wouldn't expect you to do it, but I
really like it.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
When you do.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
All right, Well, that expectation is always a key here,
but I have obviously, I'm born raised in the South,
my mother father, both of them from the Delta, Arkansas.
From the moment, and we talked about this, from the
moment I was physically able, my mother did not open
another door for herself. Right. She would walk up to
(14:17):
a store, the front door of a store, and just
stand there and look at me. You're forgetting something. I
was three years old when I was physically able to
open a door. I was trained, and all of my
thinking now I was thinking about stories of my life.
All of my training as a gentleman or doing those
chivalrous things came from my mother. No offense, Pops. I'm
(14:37):
not saying you didn't teach me anything. But my mom
was on it and trained me from birth to do
these things. And so I get Yes, it happened in
New York. I remember traveling a line from Atlanta to
New York and run into people in the airport and
I would say, I would try to hold a woman's
bag open the door. God forbid, you say yes, ma'am, no, ma'am.
(15:00):
But I have absolutely been not quite yelled at, but
gotten onto by women like how dare you? I got
my door? I don't need you for this, I don't
need you for that. And it was I was really
taken aback by that idea of doing these aren't women.
There's just a random lady in the airport. This is
not somebody I'm trying to take out on the date.
(15:21):
I'm not out, but I was. I was taken aback.
So to your point of you've gotten accustomed to that,
because now I've gotten accustomed to already getting out of
the training that my mama gave me. Right.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
But the good news is we're perfect together on this
because you were trained to do it, and I am
so appreciative of you doing it because it's been lacking
for two decades.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
This is one of the areas that we really really
are vibing.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
I really don't know any better, So I am. I
am fascinated by this conversation, which is going to continue.
So for a lot of us, we don't even know
where this comes from. This idea of women and children first, right,
this idea that for some reason we're supposed to make
sure women go first, or they are the first to
get off the ship. But we gotta save the women first.
This is an idea that experts say, or at least
(16:13):
the historian say, goes back to the eighteen hundreds on
a particular ship. We're gonna get into the details of
where this comes from in the first place. Stick with
us here, folks, we're going to be right back here
on Amy and TJ. All right, we continue here on
(16:38):
Amy and TJ having a discussion about benevolent sexism. Yes, fellas,
you think you're doing a nice thing and a sweet
gesture by opening the door, being chivalrous, but a lot
of people think that's just perpetuating old gender norms and
ideas that women are the fairer or weaker sex. So
even though you're trying to do a nice thing, it
ultimately is keeping women back. I with you, Well, we've
(17:03):
been friends for ten years, but before we were ever
in a relationship, you and I went out alive or
drinks or have a go, have a lunch or something
here and there. There is not a single point in
our relationship, including now that I've known you, not in
friendship relationship. That's not a single point that you didn't
make more money than me, and at some points it
(17:26):
was significantly more money than me. Yet every time we
went out, who was picking up the bill?
Speaker 3 (17:34):
You were?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
But I also offered and a couple of times tried
to venmo you and that didn't go well, We're going
to go well, And you would always just say it
all evens out in the end, and look, I actually
I don't think anybody likes to feel like they owe
somebody something. But we had enough of a friendship where
(17:57):
I guess eventually now maybe it has even out, but I.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Some it hasn't.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
But I'm okay with that.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
No, we ahead shot.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
But I think some some women don't appreciate the feeling
that somehow now they owe something, and that's something that
we put on ourselves. And so I would just ask,
you know, I would never demonize somebody who is willing
(18:27):
to pay.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Especially when there's zero expects.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Now, if there's an expectation attached to paying for it,
that is a whole other issue. But that was never
the case. You're the only man I know in my
life that I can recall who has always consistently insisted
on paying no matter what.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
You can. You can go ask any friend of mine,
amy female friend of mine. This has been the case
forever we go out, and I just it's an automatic.
The guy pays. Now, a lot of people hear that, Okay,
that's ridiculous if your friends, and that's fine. But in
my mind and my mindset, the way I've always been trained,
that's what should happen. But these days, how is that
(19:09):
view these days for people when they go out, when
they first date, second date, third date? Who if the
guy pays, is it an automatic? Does the woman expect it?
What happens now? I'm looking at the younger folks that
have in our own I actually don't know what the
expectation is.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Celia and Andy are here, and I can only base
this off of some of the dating shows I've been watching.
And I told you I was really shocked because I'm
watching the new Love is Blind here in the US,
and this one woman as she's in the pods talking
to potential suitors or potential husbands, making it very clear
(19:44):
that she wants to be taken care of, and that
she doesn't want it to be fifty to fifty, and
that she likes a masculine male and she wants to
be and everyone was shocked, like jaw dropping, like they
were like, this does not happen.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
It's She's that was different. But I think she is
an outlier.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
But Celia, I'll ask you, like, what do you think
about who pays for what on dates?
Speaker 5 (20:08):
I think it definitely depends on the longevity of the relationship.
I think if it's a first date, you kind of
reach for your like you reach in your purse like
you're about to pay, Like you know, I'm not grabbing anything.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
But you're hoping that he's gonna pay.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
Yeah, I'm just pretending like I'm going to but I'm not.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
For everybody listening, Solia, we are in line. This is
exactly the way a date should go. Really, we don't
expect you to pay. Just that little gesture that you're
making an effort, just a little lunge towards your purse
a little bit, just a little bit, and we look
at that and go, Okay, she's she's game. She's a
good one. I got I got a good one here.
(20:51):
We have no problem paying that little thing. That's exactly
how a date should go.
Speaker 5 (20:54):
Yeah, you gotta pretend exactly it.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
It's about the expectations.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
If you think that the girl is expecting you to pay,
you feel completely differently about paying than just saying this
is what I want to do, versus this is what
she expects me.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
See, this is me. I think every woman should expect
me to pay. But I don't need her to sit
there with her arms folded when the check comes. Right,
that's what I'm saying. I don't need her to give
an attitude of you're gonna get that way. No, No,
it's okay, we're told, But still I am. I feel
(21:30):
like I am perpetuating this negative idea of gender roles.
At least I'm told that, right. I don't feel that necessarily,
But everything I hear and read and all, my goodness
is different. Times has got to be this way. So
now I'm a little gun shy on some of these things.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
I've watched you get scolded.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
I've watched you get scolded by women who are upset
that you refer to them as ma'am, that you are
using polite terminology with the door. And I will admit
we talked about when we were friends. I was still
in that mindset because I was I was.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Told I can't have it all. I can't have it
both ways.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
So you would see me struggling with the heavy bag
to go put up in the overhead compartment when we
were traveling for work, and you'd say, let me get
that robes and I'd say, no, no, no, no, I've
got it.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Okay, go back. This is before we traveled together and
we were working, right, Yes, we traveled together a lot
when we were working. Yes, And we get on the plane,
we're boarding together, and what do you always did? We
usually sit next to each other, sit together, but gotta
put that bag in the overhead, that heavy bag in
the overhead.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yes, and so I will get on my tippy toes,
I will grunt, I will push, I will do what
it takes to like somehow ling it up there. And
so now TJ looks at me, he goes, who's a
big girl?
Speaker 4 (22:45):
No, yeah, understand, who's a big girl?
Speaker 3 (22:47):
In front of everybody?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
I think I gave you two go's at it on
a flight and you said, no, I got I got
I got it. I'm seeing you struggle. I'm standing literally
right next to you. You don't want me to help
you with your bag? Okay? So now here we are,
two years into our relationship. We fly together all the time.
Now I refuse to help you put your bag in
the overhead. And when we travel, we used okay, we
(23:10):
bored first. Everybody's around kind of a little intimate, little
area in the front, and when you're doing it, I
don't yell this out, but like you said, I make
sure everybody can hear. Oh, who's a big who's a
big Amy? Look at look at Amy? Who's that big girl?
She got our bag?
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Good job? And this goes on. So she starts laughing,
and now she's struggling with the bag even more. She's waiting,
and I keep it going to you go almost you
almost got who's a big girl?
Speaker 4 (23:37):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (23:38):
I think Actually we have even had a cabin of
folks clap after you do it because I was egging
them on.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
I believe a couple another man has actually come in
and helped because struggling.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
I didn't feel any kind of way about it. Knock
yourself out, dude, But.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
To that point, I actually reflected about why did I resist.
I've even s I seen my twenty one year old
daughter resist having someone hold a bag for her when
she's got a heavy bag. She's five to two, she's
a little gal. And it's pride and it's somehow, Well,
if I let someone help me, I'm acknowledging I'm weaker.
(24:16):
And here's the deal. I've gotten to point out, babe,
where I am and would be.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
But I get it.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
If you're still harboring.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Any ill, well, totally fine, and like laughing at myself
for somehow thinking I'm proving something to the world or
to myself that I'm strong, and that is actually silly.
And so I think when we all start feeling offended
or somehow saying when you're doing something kind that it's offensive,
(24:43):
or when you're doing something to be helpful that I'm
now annoyed, that is on me as the woman. Because
if I actually really am confident in who I am
and what I'm capable of and what I've accomplished in
my life and what I've yet to accomplish, you can
just ex accept a gesture as kind and helpful and
not take it personally as some sort of slight against
(25:05):
my physical ability.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
But do you understand why some women might yes, wait,
wait a minute, you think I need help? Do you
see why I was like that?
Speaker 2 (25:13):
I mean, I had that mindset on a few certain
random things including putting my bag in the overhead and
I and now, if I really do sit back and
am honest with myself, that's my problem that somehow that's
something that I am assigning to myself that no one
is actually intending. I think so many times this is
about misunderstanding and what the intentions are. And if you
(25:36):
can just accept a gift, it's hard to accept help.
It is hard to accept help, but sometimes I do
need it. I am physically inferior to you, TJ. I
can say that, and it's okay because that's just the
way it is emotionally.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
I am just kidding.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
It depends on the subject, and it depends on how
much sleep we've each got. And I knew you were,
but I was actually trying to give an honest answer.
But I think sometimes and not Look, these are generalizations.
Not all women in man are but but generally speaking, yes,
women are physically inferior APPS And I tell my daughters
(26:17):
this when they're walking the streets of New York City.
Don't get this bravado about yourself that you're just as
strong as men when it comes to personal safety and
physical safety. Acknowledging that you're not is actually a part
of being intelligent and knowing where your where your strengths are,
and also acknowledging where your weaknesses are. It doesn't make
you any less of a human. It's just acknowledging what is.
(26:37):
And I think sometimes are so afraid to do that
as women.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
And I know what you meant, and and it sounds bad.
I know what you mean by physically inferior. I don't
want anybody to jump on that and.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
Try to drink.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
But it's it's it's it's provable, it's it's fat, it's
physiologically okay, a fact that just men generally are built taller, stronger.
It's just that's just a fact. So that's what you're saying.
Generally speaking, Obviously there are plenty of women out there
with my ass and Andy's ass over it. That's not
what we're talking about. But generally speaking to your point
(27:09):
of there are times you don't want your daughters to
be traveling in certain places you I've heard you say this,
Ye are there going to be guys with you? Yes,
you have some dudes with you. Are you traveling to
whatever country?
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Both of my daughters initially got offended, and I said
to them this is a problem if you can't acknowledge
where you are in the world and the fact that
sometimes it is helpful for your physical safety to be
with men and not just women, and certainly not by yourself,
(27:41):
whereas if a man was traveling by himself my brother,
I would be far less concerned of what I'm saying,
like my mom.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
My mom was, and my dad were way.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
More concerned with me walking back from a party by
myself on campus versus my brother. And I think sometimes
we get so caught up in equality that we aren't
acknowledged things that actually could make a difference in your
personal safement.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
I'm laughing at the idea of my parents at some
point saying to me, when I'm walking somewhere or traveling,
you got some other guys with you. Obviously they do.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
So we like there are things that we just need
to acknowledge, and I think it's okay. And I even
had to get into my own headspace as we were
talking about this as to why I have acted certain ways,
and it's all something that I think us women feel
like we have to prove something, and I think a
lot of times if we just acknowledge what is and
(28:31):
accept what is, and also just feel good and strong
about who we are and what we're capable of. It
doesn't take away from my strength to let you hold
it back for me, or to to to say sure, babe,
that would actually be wonderful, Like can you lean into
that and still be a feminist?
Speaker 3 (28:50):
I believe?
Speaker 1 (28:50):
So let me ask this, what should every guy do
and what should every woman expect? What I'm talking about
the absolute bottom basement base that every woman should expect
from a guy, and that the guy should absolutely do.
And I go back to holding open a door that
seems I mean, it doesn't matter if it's the person
you're dating, it doesn't matter if it's your mama, it's
(29:13):
a stranger on the street, if a woman is walking,
I don't know any other option but to open the door. And,
by the way, fellas, if the door swings open towards you,
then you hold the door open and she goes first.
If the door swings out, you walk through first and
hold the door and let her exit. That's just some
one on one for the fellas out there. That's the
way it should go. But is that the bottom line? Basic?
(29:36):
Can we all agree on something that a woman should expect?
From a guy, and a guy should absolutely be doing
no matter what.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
The only thing I could say that's absolute is respect,
and that it's just to respect where that person is.
And it might not be some blanket thing where all women,
you know, expect it, but we all can expect respect
so wherever we are, whatever we feel, and maybe not
get personally offended if a woman says thank you, I'd
rather open my own door by all means, you know.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
And I just think if we can just respect where
we all are.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
But also I just think it's important as a woman
to ask yourself why you feel the way you feel
and way and understand maybe why a man would feel
the way he feels.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
And that both are okay, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
It is okay, I think.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
So this goes back to and again I'll say we're
going to mention this, but the idea of women and
children first. This idea obviously it's understandable with children, right,
they can't oftentimes protect themselves. This goes back to a
ship that went down in eighteen fifty two off the
coast of South Africa, the HMS Birkenhead. The HMS Birkenhead
where at the time the reports are that the captain
(30:42):
at the time saw all the men scrambling and filling up,
and they were going to essentially take up all the
spots on the for the boats, for the rescue boats
that are attached, for the life rafts, and they made
a decision, no, we are going to make sure there
are spots for the women and the children first. That
continued obviously with the Titanic.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
I thought you were going to say this Titanic it
was it predates, it predates.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
So but this was the idea that kind of got rolling.
To this day, we still think women and children first.
We still think women and children. And why do we
think that, because these are the folks that need to
be protected first in society. This came up again with
the conflict in Gaza, where so many hostages were there
women and children arguing should be released. Well, that woman
(31:30):
there is healthier than this eighty year old guy, right,
So it doesn't always work that way. That might be
an eighty year old man I need to help with
his bag on the airplane sometimes. So it's just it's
not a one size fits all sometimes. So these debates
happening now with Hegseth with the Defense Department. So it
came up and you and I had I think we
lost like fifteen minutes of work time doing our morning
(31:52):
run podcast because we stopped and we got into a
back and forth about this. It's just interesting to talk about,
and certainly with the way I've been trained the way
you've been trained, essentially by your dad, I've seen him
do all of this with your mom constantly.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Just he's very chivalrous with my mom.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
And I saw that as an example my whole life,
and so to me it represented love. It didn't represent
being put down or being marginalized or being considered less
than it was about love. And so for me, it
was about love and respect. And that might be the
reason why that's the lens I view it with. But
I got confused when I took on a different role
(32:28):
in my life that I didn't see other women around
me take on, which was, you know, to be the breadwinner,
to be the person moving the family, to be the
person who kept her last name. So I felt like, oh, well,
then I guess I can't expect or want even once
you know, those other things to happen. I felt like
I had to choose between the two, and I think
(32:50):
now I'm at a place in my life, especially with
you in my life, and knowing how chivalrous you are
naturally or you were trained to be from a young age.
I've actually I had a conversation with my mom about
it because I think I used to be more like
my daughter's like, I can do it all.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
I don't need a man.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Of course, Fine, that's great, But what's wrong with enjoying
having someone show you a little bit of love?
Speaker 1 (33:14):
And that's all it is. It's it really is love.
And there are some things and I think getting up
from the table when a woman gets up from the
table is one thing. I don't see a lot. Actually
I don't see any other guy in life do that, but.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
It impressed the hell out of me when I saw
you do it.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
I was like, Wow, this guy is respect It felt
like respect.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
It's not it wasn't offensive, it was respectful.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
I've done that before in my life. I've stood up
you at a restaurant. You stand up when a woman
leaves a table. Doesn't have to be your woman, just
any woman leaves a table, And I say, your woman,
by not this, she's a possession.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
Okay, given, where's this conversation is gone?
Speaker 1 (33:54):
I don't need to make that mistake. Andy, can we
edit that out?
Speaker 5 (33:57):
Please?
Speaker 4 (33:57):
Take no, no, no, we know what you mean.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
But any woman gets up from the table, and this
is one that Chuck for the past twenty years almost
you know, I've been out with Chuck plenty times. He
I have been ripped by him for years because no
other guy ever stands up. So if I stand up
when a woman leaves the table and no other guy does,
it makes the other guys look bad. So I have
(34:22):
been getting ripped for that for a long time. The
thing on the other side of the on the sidewalk,
that's an automatic I think sometimes with you, you and
I have almost tripped over each other because you're trying
to figure out where you're going because I'm just we're
doing a little ballet. I'm trying to get to the
other side of you, and we switched.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Side of the street.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
I have to switch the side up on with you,
Witch purses because we're holding hands.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
So, yeah, it's a little bit of a dance that happens.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
But I do appreciate the gesture.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
The car door is a big one.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Yeah, that's been That's been a huge change in my life,
and I like it.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Yeah, guys, even if you are the one driving, you
still go to the passenger side and you her in first.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
It makes me feel loved.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
It's just an autumn because I'm actually it's funny because
I feel embarrassed saying it, because I again, I've been
conditioned for so long to not want that, and I
like it.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
I'm just gonna admit it. I love it, and I
want some more of it.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Well, I don't know any other way to be. And
I can't remember the young lady's name that works the
front of your building. I can't remember her name, but
I'm saying I have at that door. I have been
in standoffs with women at that door before because they
were trying to tell me to come out. I said, nope,
you come on. Hey, No, no, no, you come on. Nope,
ma'am you first. And then you know what I end with.
(35:43):
I say, nope, my mama wouldn't have it any other way.
And when I say.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
That, okay, yeah, they get it.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I'm not gonna win this guy over. But it is
is just training. Mama thinks it's not anything I could
take credit for. It's just it's just muscle memory for me.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
I guess I should thank your mama. Well, thank you,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
I'm a home So this is an interesting This is
the last question I want to ask you. Does chivalry
have to go away in order for us to eventually
get to full gender quality.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
I don't believe so, because I think there are always
going to be differences between the sexes, whether we like
to admit them or not. And I think we can
compliment one another. We don't have to be stereotypical and
fingerpoint and make it.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
A negative thing. Can be a positive thing.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
You know. And I think we can help each other
in a lot of ways. And I think that it
doesn't keep any one of us down by accepting love,
accepting respect, accepting help. And I think the two can
coexist if we can all get in the right headspace.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Bumby lunch when we get out of here.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
Sure, not a problem at all.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
All right, folks, We appreciate you listening. As always. You
can find us on official Instagram page at Amy and
TJ Podcast. You can find us on our personal pages
on Instagram as well. And yes, we'd appreciate you chiming
in on this one respectfully.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
In the spirit of love and respect, yes, we'd love
to hear your two cents all right.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
We also appreciate you listening, as always was a you.
Next Game,
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Amy Robach
T.J. Holmes
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