June 14, 2024 • 56 mins
T.J. and Amy discuss having drinks with her ex-husband, throwing a high school graduation party and taking their show on the road!
Following Amy and T.J.'s live podcast from the Soho House, the guest who asked the question of the night, Justice Jamal Jones, is on the podcast to continue the conversation...
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, there are folks. In this episode, Amy Robot goes
back to Catholic church. But why is it that I
was the one who felt like he was burning in hell? Also,
how a self proclaimed Jewish mom helped us in our
hour of need. Plus, I have drinks and I party
with Amy Robock's ex husband, and we are considering coming
(00:27):
to your city. We'd like to hear if you'd like
us to come by. And finally, our guest today poses
a question to us, and it may be the most
intriguing question we've been asked in a year and a half.
And with that, everybody, welcome to this episode of Amy
and TJ Robes. But first, can you call women out there? Girls?
(00:47):
Help me out? Why is it that you all wear
things that are clearly uncomfortable for the sake of being cute?
Robock helped me with that because we dealt with this.
We've been dealing with us for the past couple of hours.
You ain't come right now.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Well, I have been trained since I can remember, Oh
trained you my mom and my grandmother that if it's
pain for beauty, it's pain worth having. You know, if
you're telling me I have to endure something because I
have to have some like medical treatment to survive, then
I'm going to complain. But if it's just to look better,
I got this.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Why is that? Why that mindset? I don't think guys.
I don't think guys do that, But why, Like I
think classically heels, you all will do whatever to wear
some sexy heels just in pain.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
But your legs have never looked better in heels, so
it's worth it.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
It's bizarre that you're no matter what I say, you're
justifying like I am the idiot for questioning that you
all might do this, not that you all might say.
You know what, maybe we should not be sacrificing our
physical comfort for the sake of looking good for whoever.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
It's just it's just the level of pain and what
it's worth. So there's a scale. You know, I'm not
gonna go be in I'm not gonna be suffering, but
if it's slightly uncomfortable but I look great, I'm gonna
do it.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
You're telling me you've never suffered for the sake of
what you how you.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Looked heals one percent. I've suffered without a doubt. So
you see when I walked a little slower ten maybe
it was like a seven on the scale of pain.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
And we're talking about it now. I don't think it's pain,
but it's comfort you you today ever since I came by, right,
I came back by at ten am, and we were
just INU just me and you and Ava, and you're
adjusting your outfit. You kept, like, uncomfortably, you continued to
adjust your outfit. I didn't know what was going on,
and then I pieced it together, but you explained, and
then we got on the train and you were still adjusting.
(02:34):
Now you look adorable. Don't get me wrong, you are.
You are summer cute. I mean, it is fantastic, y'all
can't see it right now? She has this orange top
on what do you call this thing? It's what it's
a halter top, a halt the top. It's orange, it's bright,
it's banging. She has this short little skirt.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, probably you can't wear a bra with it, okay,
So should I go here like normally? I mean, you
can go into the drug store, you can go anywhere
and get these little sticky things. So in lieu of
a bra, you're just you know, not exposing more than
you'd like. And so I left my sticky things at
your place.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Okay, what are those things?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
What they're called? They do? We know what they're called? Pedals?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Pedals.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yes, you can either like buy the ones that are
one and done so they just stick on to you
like a band aid, or you can get the kind
that have a little bit more silicone in them and
they just kind of stick to your chest and they
stay put. Well, I don't have them, so I use
you gut. Girls are going to laugh, so everyone knows.
This is also something that drives me crazy. Sports bras
(03:34):
you need a little padding sometimes, but they have these
inserts that come out constantly and you have to constantly
move them around, and when you're washing them, they fall
out in the dryer. I want to create a sports
bra that has them in place. Okay, sorry, okay, I'm
getting a preach from our producer here. Yes, uh, one
hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
So I took those out of a sports braud I
put them Wait what, I put them in my shirt
so that I have a little bit of but they're
not sticking like my sticky ones do, so they're moving
around a little bit.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Okay, but you didn't have either of those options this morning.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Well, no, I have that on right now?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Oh, you have that one. This is what you're wearing.
This is why you're adjusting. Folks don't know. I am
holding in my hand a weird padded thing that looks
like something you would use at a restaurant to even
the table out underneath if the tables. Okay, that goes
to the sports ra The reason I know that the
(04:30):
sticky things were not an option because the sticky things
are on my nightstand this morning.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Yep, that's exactly what happened. So it's not that I'm uncomfortable.
I'm just adjusting because they're moving around a little bit.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
But that's what I mean. You're uncomfortable, You're not. You're
you're constantly adjusting something today.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
But thanks for sharing on my phone.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
But no, it's not a beauty No, no, no, I didn't.
That's not a beauty secret. Every woman knows what you're
talking about. Just I didn't understand why it was still
worth it to you to constantly adjust or have it
on your mind for the sake of being banged.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
I just didn't want them to be anything extra showing
that shouldn't that's all.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Well, you look great, hey, and yes, everybody, I didn't.
We didn't plan on starting with that, but hey, that
was the train ride. But we have had a heck
of a week here last few days, the last few podcasts,
I think a lot of no, we appreciate it. We've
gotten a lot of feedback from you all, and it's
resonated to some degree, or at least a degree. We
were very proud of the event we had at SOHO
(05:33):
House in which it was our first time speaking in
front of a live audience. But the other episode of
the podcast that really got we got a lot of
feedback on and we were so proud of and happy
about was the episode that had that featured your parents,
who were happy, we're just coming to town because your
daughter was graduating high school, and we kind of just say,
you know what, let's just happen. It wasn't a plan.
(05:54):
It really happened the day before the plan came together.
And what an episode is absolutely my favorite.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Yeah, I mean you know what. It was sweet because
it was your idea. To be specific, you said, hey,
would your parents do the podcast with us? And I said,
I think so, but let me ask, And then we
joked and my mom wanted to know what we were
going to ask her, and you assured her it was
going to be nothing that she didn't already know the
answer to. But I've never seen them more comfortable. I've
kind of forced them over the years wherever I've worked
(06:21):
to do certain things on camera, and of course it's
not the thing you do for a living. It's a
little jarring, and you kind of are overthinking what you
should do or what you should say. But I saw
them at their absolute most comfortable. Honest, I was impressed
by them. But what I was most impressed by was
not only everyone's reaction to them, but your reaction to
(06:43):
them specifically. I appreciate everyone, by the way, who wrote
in on Instagram or on social media just to say
kind things about them, because everything that you wrote is true.
They are a salt of the earth, wonderful, beautiful, pious,
hard working, earn like beyond, and just to see other
(07:04):
people recognize that made me so happy. But I also
told you you sat yesterday and started to speak. You
re listened to the podcast.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
That was my first times it almost a week so
we recorded it. I didn't listen to it till almost
a week after we did it. It had already been out
there so yeah, I just as I was getting round
this decided to put it on and I was blown away.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
And you came over really enthusiastically talking about how much
you appreciated my mom's honesty and her feistiness and her
humor and then my dad's quiet wisdom.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
He nailed it every time.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
And you said that, and honestly, like, I got tears
in my eyes seeing how much my man, my guy,
not only loves my parents but respects them and maybe
even more importantly likes them. And that has been huge.
But you know, that is a big deal. With potential
in laws or just family members of the people you love,
it doesn't always go that way.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
But you know, I've liked hanging out with your parents
for years.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
You have. You've always said that, And I've hung.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
With your parents with you not around for years. You
have and almost preferred to hang out with your parents
when you're not around.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
You've taken it a step too far. Okay, sorry, but
I genuinely felt so, Like, you know, it's like when
someone tells you they love your child, when you'd say that,
you know what I mean, Like it's like an extension
of you and that you have no control over to
a large degree, and when you came over and just
were genuinely because I let's just say this about you.
I think you can be honest here. You don't necessarily
(08:37):
like a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Does that sound so bad?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
It's just you are discerning, you have You're very honest,
and it takes a lot, I think, for people to
impress you. It does.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
What I'm saying, I don't. I don't waste time trying
to fool somebody into thinking that I like them or
I want to spend time with them. This was a
lot of people said was to my detriment in media
and in big corporate in a big corporate world, I
never I've hung out. I've had bosses and presidents of
companies that I loved and hung out with as friends,
but never asked them to do anything for me. But
(09:15):
I've never been one to go kiss the ring or
try to make good with the boss just because. So yeah,
and to that way, discerning, I just if I like
you, you know it. If I don't like you, I don't
want to spend time with you. It's you might not
know it, but.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
You probably do know it.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
It's not because he's mean to me. It's because he's
he didn't show up, or he didn't call back, or
he didn't message back, or he did it's probably more so.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
That I don't want that to be a negative because
one of the things I love about you is that
you are who you are. You don't put on airs,
you don't pretend you're the opposite of being a bullshit
or you are as real as they come. So in
a weird way, like because we were always friends, I
remember always feeling extra special because I knew you liked me,
(10:01):
and I was like, yay, he likes me, because you
know what when you do. But anyway, you came over
without them ever knowing or hearing or ever imagining that
I would say anything, but just I was so blown
away at your reaction to them and what they had
to say. So it was really it was really great.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
So we left that podcast recorded with your parents. They
were here for the graduation now you all. We recorded
that at nine thirty in the morning that Thursday, and
I mean it was a rat race. After that. We
left the studio and we had to get set up
at your home to host about thirty people, and you
all had to leave for the graduation, which was at five,
(10:43):
but you all left plenty early. So I am left
at the house. There's no ice, there's no beer. There
was wine, but the food was coming. I had to
receive because I didn't actually go to the graduation at St. Patris.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
We had a very limited number of tickets at Saint
Patt's because of the seating capacity.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Maybe, yes, so I am okay being the good boyfriend,
which is great. That's that's fine. Okay. Now when you left.
Before you left, that was a little bit of a
panic because you got that many people. You need ice, yep,
drinks to keep things cold. The last thing I've said
to you when you were trying to order things, I said, Baby,
(11:23):
order too much ice.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
You said, whatever, you do, order more ice than you
think we need.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Whatever you think. It's like being at the movie theater
and they give you butter and you say, hey, when
you think you put too much, put some more butter on.
It was one of those things, Baby, order too much ice.
I can let ice melt, but if I don't have
enough ice, it's gonna be a problem.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
So you go to church for the graduation, yep, which
was at five. This was all we should look at it.
I assure it was the hottest, most humid day on
record in New York City this year.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
It was crazy. I've not felt that kind of humidity
at all in maybe a year, like other than being
in New Orleans. It was that human.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
There was that human. So they all go to the graduation.
They're sitting inside was the was the cathedral air condition.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
It was lovely.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
That's awesome. So I am. I'm at the house. The
food comes. Wonder if we have enough. I'm sweating, y'all.
I'm literally in her home with sweatpants on and no shirt.
It's hots. Also my inside outside.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
And my AC doesn't work so well in the back.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Though, yeah, but yeah, and even one in the front
unevenly does run.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
It's a really New York City.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
What I'm saying, y'all is it was hot. The ice comes.
We have a cooler in this little outdoor area. The
ice comes for thirty people. There are one hundred cans
of beer and stuff that came. The ice isn't enough
to even fill up a third of the cooler. Whoops,
a third.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
They were five pound bags, not twenty third.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Was called the cooler. So right, they're at the graduation.
I know they're going to be back at six thirty,
and people are going to start coming at seven thirty,
so it's five fifteen, five point thirty six o'clock. I
try to order ice Instacart and it says it can
be there between six fifteen and seven forty nine. Like, oh,
that's cutting it too close. I gotta go get ice, yep,
(13:17):
and a lot of it. So this is what happens, y'all.
I do put on a.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Shirt at least before I leave, but you with sweatpants
and dress shoes.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Else I'm walking down in through Tribeca, y'all with sweatpants
and tasseled dress shoes, it's true, and a T shirt.
And I go to a seven eleven and I say, ma'am,
I need ten bags of ice, but I can only
carry about five on my own right now. Can I
pay you for them all? And then I'll come back
and make another trip. The lady says, you poor thing,
(13:47):
gives me a trash bag out from behind the counter,
says try this. I walk back with six bags two blocks.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
In the heat like Sandy Claus.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Literally off me. I dumped that ice. I grab some
bags you have at the house. I go back to
seven eleven fill up with another. I think it was
twelve bags.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Oh my gosh, while you're in church yep, and air conditioning.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
You should be on fire.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
But you know what's so sweet? He does all of this.
I come in, I don't know what he's been through,
and he doesn't tell me until the next day. He
was like, I didn't want to make you feel bad
or to worry about it, so I just did it.
I didn't say anything about it. He didn't say one
word until the next day.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
The whole party took place that night. Nothing. But the
next morning she got up and I woke her up
like this, like rattling ice in earth. Hear that ice? Baby.
I got started to see.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
There's a reason why we have an ice is what
it is. I was like, oh my god, I'm so sorry.
You're like, that's why I didn't tell you. That's why
I didn't tell you.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
But it's all right. The party was great. I mentioned
at the time, I was partying. Yes, I was having
drinks in the kitchen and having conversation with your ex husband.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yep, your first, yes, my first yes.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Ye're yes. At least the name is Dad was a
part of the festivity.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yes, yes, their dad Tim and his wife Jess, who
they're both lovely people. They flew in from South Carolina
and so they were there and we were all in
this apartment together with my parents and by the way,
Sabine as well came in for the festivities and it
was beautiful. It went off without a hitch. I don't
think I've ever had a party where I've had so
(15:28):
many people I'd never met before, because it was parents
of other young women who were all there together, and
it really just was this beautiful and you you made
it perfect, so thank you. Thank you. Had ice in
their drinks and that was very important.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Every every michaelob Ultra was cold.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
It was. It was indeed.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
The other part. Look, we had a series of podcasts
here that kind of got I guess got on more
of a personal note, but it was back in March
we told you all with the last couple of episodes,
we had an event at Soho House here in New
York and it it went well and we've gotten great
feedback from you all as well about the episodes. But
(16:17):
that only came about because of a friend of ours.
Mortin Akachuku is his name. He's the head of a
company called what Works, but a friend somebody went to
college with, but a robot we connected with here, reconnected
with I guess this year and he was the one
that sat us down and saying, you know, what you
guys should do? And it was his idea and we
said no, he said, not that sounds crazy. First of all,
(16:38):
nobody's going to show up. Who the hell wants to
show up and listen to us say anything was our
first thing. He just shook his head like, you don't
even know, you don't even know, so it it was
not our idea. We want to give him credit for it,
but us complaint said nobody's going to show up. There's
no way in hell. And sure enough, when tickets were
made available, he sent me a note said tickets went up,
(17:00):
they were going in an hour. So all the tickets were
going an hour. We had a packed house, a lot
of standing room in the house. But it was a
big deal because we hadn't faced an audience in the
year and a half.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, I mean, and we talked about it when we
first started. If you all listened to the first live
episode from the SOHO House, I mean, we were saying
we were nervous. But my god, here just to explain
just how nervous we were. I mean TJ was pacing
and our hands were shaking, like if you put our
hands out, they were shaking. We had not been in
front of people other than a few select folks, so
(17:35):
we knew we were safe with We had never opened
ourselves up to an audience. We didn't know who said
yes to the tickets, we didn't know who was there,
we didn't know who would ask us what questions, and
we knew we were opening ourselves up to being asked anything,
and we genuinely prepared ourselves for every the worst, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
The worst. We actually had a discussion about security. I said, sweetheart,
if so and so one happens, if this happens and
we need to go here, I'm gonna grab you and
were We actually had that discussion.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
And not to be dramatic, I mean, this is the truth.
I had multiple emails that involved death threats. When the
first pictures went up, people were so angry, not just
about what they said was behind our relationship, but just
the fact that we were an interracial couple. I had
some racial fueled, you know, hateful emails that actually went
(18:25):
into descriptions about how they were going to kill us both.
So yes, there was genuine like, I know those are
outliers and random folks, but you just can't not take
that seriously in those moments when you first put yourself
back out there in the public.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
And we were in a position we walk into the room,
we didn't essentially see the room until they Martin introduced us.
Here's Am and TJ. And we walk in and we're
seeing the room for the first time. Lights were on us.
It was we actually still couldn't really see the audience.
We didn't know who was in there. We knew we
had family members in there, the girls were in there,
we had friends in there, but we didn't know. But
(18:59):
it I can't tell you all and thank you all
enough for those who attended, but for those who received
the last couple of episodes of The Way You Have,
we appreciate it was a very big deal for us.
It was cathartic for us, and it was a It
was a way to turn a page in a lot
of ways, and we appreciate it. So thank you all
for taking the time to listen. For those of you
all who showed up, and one person who showed up
(19:21):
that night, and I mean it it was we had
We've been asked a lot of questions. We've considered a
lot of questions over the past year and a half.
This was one we hadn't even thought about and it
it jumped out at us and it threw us off
at the time. But it was such a good feeling
to know that the person that was asking us this
question is somebody we had no idea it was going
(19:43):
to be in the room, and who was kind of
somebody from our past to a certain degree that we
had worked with more specifically. But to know that this
person that showed up meant a lot, I think, and I
have no thing I've talked about this with you. To
know that Justice, Justice is a name showed up. It
(20:08):
was kind of a wow moment for me and it
actually put me at great ease when Justice stood up
and asked the question. But I have it right that
we felt the same. The question that Justice asked was.
It threw us like wow. I never thought about it
that way.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
It was an amazing question and we didn't know. I
hadn't And it took you, I think, a second to
put two and two together. Who was asking the question
because again bright lights on us, we see someone stand
up and ask this question, and all of a sudden
you say, justice is that you justice? But it was
remarkable because yes, he made a parallel that I hadn't
even considered. Because if you all have listened to the
(20:43):
last two episodes, you'll know that our theme was shame
and shedding shame but acknowledging it all the same because
we're all in different ways go through it, but specifically
about relationships and then figuring out how to hold your
head up high, figuring out how to own your truth,
own your story, and not take on shame, especially when
it's coming from other people. And he made the parallel
(21:05):
between the LGBTQ plus community understanding exactly what that's like.
And I had never even thought about it from that perspective.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
I even thought it was unfair to make a parallel sometimes,
like that's not fair. You're going into your unique thing
and there's no reason to find but it is there.
I think there's some solace, even in some comfort, in
making those parallels. But Justice is at NYU grad a filmmaker,
actor writer here in New York, and I got to
(21:36):
know justice for the first time when we had Justice
on as a guest conversation between black men and something
we did at Good Morning America. Justice was a part
of that panel discussion. And someone who lights up a
room when they walk in and you call justice at
the end that night, you coined it, and you're one
(21:57):
hundred percent right. What did you call justice? At the
end of that night?
Speaker 2 (22:00):
He looked to me and sounded to me like a
black angel, and that black.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Angel is with us. Now, Justice, say something. Make sure
now she sets you up. So whatever comes out of
your mouth now needs to sound very black and angelic.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
Oh you want something that's on mute? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Nothing, you know what, I love it.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
We all like that's just perfect. Actually, you know, we're
all imperfectly perfect. So there you go. Whoops, mute on
mute Justice.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
How are you doing.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
I'm good? How are you guys? Thank you for having me?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Oh please, this is an absolute pleasure. I think maybe
even that night at the SOHO house we talked about
like we got to get you on. I you know what,
it was Robot more so than anything, say we've got
to get Justice on. And I can I start first
with pronouns. Your pronouns yeah, you go want to go
(22:58):
by our what.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
I think as like identity.
Speaker 5 (23:01):
Culture has become more and more like a parent and
kind of more incorporated in our culture. I start to
feel a little bit more pressure to like pick one
and pick a pronoun and like.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
Kind of hold everyone to it.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
But for me, I kind of think of pronouns for
myself as a like reflection of like my relationship with people.
And I am always kind of in this fluid space
of you know, like I'm going to the gym and
I'm putting my snapback on and and like my sweaty pants,
(23:43):
and like, I know that I look like a guy
during this moment, and I'm not gonna probably like I'm
not gonna get mad at someone says, hey, dude, what's up,
because I know they're at least talking to me and
at least want to connect with me. One thing that
I also try to use for myself is like I
think the best thing you can always do is call
someone by their name to like to them, you know,
(24:06):
and like people, that's people's favorite word. Also, you know,
like people love hearing their name, so like you could
never go wrong by being like hi Jacob or Hi Emily,
like they're always going to be fine with that, you know.
But also I also really I was doing a lot
(24:30):
reflecting when I was hearing your Getting Ready Today's story, Amy,
because I was like, oh my god, Like for me,
I've been learning that feminine is so much about like work.
There's so much work to be feminine, like being person
that a person that was born male. It's like, oh
my god, Like that is almost like what the feminine
(24:54):
essence is. It's like continue it. Like in the Western society,
it's like and like putting something on and keeping that together.
And you know, like even today it's like the minimal
amount of makeup I have on and YadA YadA is
like it still has to be placed right.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
You know.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
And I thought about it, you know, and even when
I like go out and people might think, oh, that
could be a girl, like that took a lot of work.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
And I think all women are doing that, you know
what I mean. I feel like all women are doing it.
Like yes, we act like it's just.
Speaker 5 (25:27):
Like trans people or queer people getting themselves up. I'm like, no,
everyone is doing this.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yes, we None of us walk up like this, none of.
Speaker 5 (25:35):
Us, none of us looked like this. You know, and
so we're all putting it on.
Speaker 4 (25:40):
So yeah, that's funny.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
I'm so happy you can relate to that. That's just
many stories. I know.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
I'm like the amount of like I don't know, just
like shirts.
Speaker 5 (25:54):
Sometimes I'm just like, I don't know why I decided
to wear this because I can barely move, you know,
like I like I can't move in this dress or whatever.
Speaker 4 (26:04):
And I'm like, oh, like you.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Basically walk out each day saying how much discomfort can
I tolerate to look like this? And then that's the
decision exactly exactly, And guys are like, then what?
Speaker 4 (26:18):
And then sometimes I.
Speaker 5 (26:18):
Think that about it, like you look so good and
I'm like, oh my god, yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
It was worth it.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
But I was totally worth it.
Speaker 5 (26:25):
I Like it's a word that I'm like, oh my god,
I've been pain pain, had to toe pains.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
What was it like being you growing up in Nebraska?
Did you see other people like you? Did you feel
out of place? Did you feel like you were able
to become the full version of you there?
Speaker 5 (26:53):
I think I became a full version of myself Part one.
I think about that a lot, and I've learned to
not necessarily resent Nebraska because it does give me peace
and solace in times where like, you know, I've been
in New York for.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
Almost eight years now, I think it's seven.
Speaker 5 (27:13):
But like when you're in the middle of everything, it's
time sometimes nice to be in.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
The middle of nowhere.
Speaker 5 (27:21):
And with growing up in Boystown and growing up in Omaha,
I think I learned something that is really important, Like
I learned the importance of like brotherly love and as
a person that loves men and has queer relationships. I
(27:43):
feel very lucky that I felt that I had like
a community as a child, and now that community has
shifted and change. But I was never I always felt protected,
you know, because I had like eight older brothers, you know,
who were like, well, if you talk about justice, we're
ready to fight you.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
You know. So but when was that for you? What
age was it for you that you knew something that
you were starting to realize and recognize how you felt
it might have been different from some of the other boys.
And then what is your we always ask, right, what
was your coming out story with your family and friends?
Speaker 4 (28:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (28:23):
So I think for me, like I've always been who
I am, and I think actually more and more now
I'm getting back to that person. My mom tells the
story of me watching like Glenn closes one hundred and
whatever Dalmatians and me like getting like a blanket and
like doing the whole performance as Crello Deville.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
You know, I was like full performance, foul drag.
Speaker 5 (28:52):
Crello Deville, like three and it was just like and
I was just like, that's it.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
So you started your villain earrow way back.
Speaker 5 (29:03):
Then, oh, way back then. Like I knew, I knew
who I was meant to be. I knew I was
meant to be a villainous woman and that and that
is you know, I'm working towards that every.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Day, you know.
Speaker 5 (29:17):
So, but yeah, I think my coming out story was
I'm it's always evolving. Like I came out as gay
my freshman year of college. There was this boy that
I had like this really cute summer romance with that
was also from Omaha, and I just like was like, well,
(29:39):
I'm actually doing gay things, so I should.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
Come out as gay.
Speaker 5 (29:42):
Like you know, like at first, I was like, I'm
I don't know if I'm gay because I didn't do
gay things.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
When I was like, I'm doing.
Speaker 5 (29:47):
Gay things now, so that I'm gay, you know, and
then over my time in Nebra, I mean in New York,
I started understand gender and kind of understanding that sexuality
is different than gender, and you know, kind of opening
that range up and now kind of like continuously coming
(30:12):
now in different ways. I guess, you know, it's like
I'm always I feel like I'm always shifting, I'm always changing,
and uh, but why is that?
Speaker 1 (30:22):
What's the shift and change? You seem so the whole
time I've known you. It's only been a couple of
years now, but you always seem to be comfortable in
your own skin with who you are, never hiding anything. Again,
maybe it was the relationship we had, maybe it was
the environment that we had, but you sound like you're
still there's still some evolution of justice that's taking place.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Yeah, I think, you know, I think it is the comfortability.
Speaker 5 (30:44):
I think like when we always connect, I feel like safe,
you know, And I appreciate that from you. But I
think I also grow. I'm also want to And I
moved to New York at seventeen. I went to a
space that I went to, a bubble that like allowed
(31:06):
me to be comfortable. I like went to NYU and
like it was like, oh yeah, like everyone's gay. Like
it was just like like it was just like, so
what are you gonna do? Like do you want to
go to Brooklyn? Do you want to see this drag show?
Do you want to go to I mean, you want
to go to this party?
Speaker 4 (31:23):
Like it was just like.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Just as it's so funny. So you know, my daughter
is about to be a senior at NYU, and she
was actually just telling us about the drag and Playhouse.
I don't know if you've been there, but she was
at playhouse last night and with telling me all about
the drag show and how she got pulled up on stage.
And so when you said everybody's like this at NYU,
I'm laughing because you're not wrong.
Speaker 5 (31:44):
No, I'm like like and then there's the bubble, but
then you know, like you have to leave the bubble
and like something to come back here. I'm like, oh,
like I am different and you have to just I
don't know, maybe I'm also delusional or like I sometimes
have that feel like I actually live in a little
bit of delusion where like if I don't have like
(32:06):
this radical optimism around, like self confidence and believing in
myself and believing in other marginalized people like I would
just have like crippling anxiety and just fall apart.
Speaker 4 (32:20):
So it's like I have to choose it.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
To the point, Justice, I have a question, are there places?
Have there been places where you don't feel safe being you?
Speaker 5 (32:29):
Yeah? Of course, like I've felt unsafe in I think
my high school. I remember my high school right before
I left for college was twenty sixteen, and like the
whole like beginning of the Trump thing, and I was
just like friends were turning on me and family, friends
were turning on my family, and it was more honestly
(32:55):
racial than anything. This is just my my my life.
I felt more optracized race wise than queer wise, because
even within the queer community, like we can't deny like
there's like rampant racism, you know, like the queer community has,
(33:16):
especially with like white gay men, they have this very
fascist perspectives. They have their own kind of like like
you have to look like this and you will like it.
There's a lot of dynamics and that can review apart.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
So wait, did that right, Justice, that you you you
feel more racism within the LGBTQ plus community than you
do as essentially in the community as a whole, do
you feel more racism? No, okay, not as a.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
Whole, but I feel like it's equal.
Speaker 5 (33:48):
I wouldn't pay that it's more, but I do feel
like it's definitely equal. And the thing is, is that
also the scary. One of my mentors last night this
to me, who was actually one of my professors, is
that it's really scary when people who have power or
privileged think they're innocent. And I thought about that and
(34:13):
I was like, oh, yeah, you're right, and like I
think specifically with like white gayness, it creates this like, oh,
but I'm not a white straight man.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
You know, I'm innocent.
Speaker 5 (34:28):
And then it's like, so I can fetishize black men,
I can adopt these these like ideals around like beauty
and that is, but I am innocent because I'm also marginalized.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
I wanted to ask, I want to go back to
the SOHO House event again. We didn't know you were
going to be there, and I hadn't talked to you
since I don't think I had since you come on
for again conversations with black men special that we did.
You though, got up at the SOHO House event and
there were two moments that night. Yours was one of
them that put us at ease in such a way
(35:18):
that we couldn't ever have planned. But the first moment
was when I had actually told a friend of mine
who was a big time producer we love and respect
about the event, and she said, at the end of
that event, whatever you guys do, you need to make
sure those people just want to get up and embrace you,
(35:39):
like put just hug you. You got to make sure
how have you come across. Make sure you don't say, oh,
we were done wrong, and make sure you don't go
out there and do all that hooton and holland you
go out there and you explain yourselves and you talk
and you be sincere and they should want to put
their arms around you. And sure enough, when we got
done with our talk and we opened it up to questions,
one of the first things that happened is you said.
(36:02):
She announced herself as a.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
I'm a Jewish mom, Yeah, Jewish mom, and she said,
the first thing I want to do right now to
both of you is give you a hug. And I
looked at TJ because he had told me. I was like,
oh my god, that was amazing, Like that's exactly what
you know. We were hoping there would be some level
of connectivity. And we're not playing the victim card. We're
not saying poor us. We're just all sharing an experience
(36:24):
that everyone can understand, which is that feeling of shame.
And that was what we were hoping to do, just
to connect. So anyway, yes, she stood up, Tej, you
got off the stage and you gave her a big
old hug, and I just thought, oh my goodness, this
is this is perfect the moment, but.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Then moment too, just this was when you stood up
and we didn't couldn't lay eyes on you because again
the audience was dark. We had the lights on us.
I still couldn't see you. But when you said, you
gotta be fucking kidding me, he's in here, and you
asked the question that we had not considered. He said,
do you all feel some kind of connection parallels with
(36:58):
the lgbt Q plus community with the idea of your love,
your relationship not being accepted. Do you feel some kind
of shame because it's for some reason your relationship is
looked at as one that is not accepted, And we
had never considered that before. So if you can help
(37:19):
us here for a moment. We haven't talked about it
that much, but that question, where did that question come from?
And what did you see? Again, we hadn't talked, but
I guess you'd seen the past year and a half
what she and I had been going through. But where
did that question come from?
Speaker 5 (37:34):
I think it came from really just like I think
seeing what had happened over the past year and a
half and feeling solidarity there and feeling that frustration and
(37:56):
feeling frustration that kind of I have with my own
relationships and not feeling that they're validated. I just really
felt you guys, And I was like, oh, this is
kind of that. I was like, oh, there's there's like
in that moment. I was like, Oh, that's the connection.
Like I didn't know why I was so un I
(38:18):
was like, so I felt so weird about it, but
I was like, Oh, that's the connection because queer people
are constantly like attacked for the way that they love
and there's so many like stigmas around that, and uh.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (38:39):
And I was also there on a date too, and
my date was like kept like whispering to me and
saying like, oh, I think this this feels like very
queer in a weird way, and I was like, yeah,
I think so. Like They're like, yeah, like we this
is like what we do all the time. And I
was like, yeah, you're right, like that is the feeling
(39:01):
that there's like a continuous fight, you know, for love,
and and they were there, Lido shout out to you
was like was like.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Or as he was known that night, the white Man.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
My white Day, but nobody. It was so incredible because
I started thinking about it. You know, I know in
New York it probably mostly feels like a safe space
to hold hands with the person you're with, or just
to walk down the street in a loving way with
someone who you're with proudly with your head held up high.
(39:40):
That isn't something that just comes naturally or easily, I
would imagine, because you're thinking, everyone walking down the street
is judging me, Everyone walking down the street is thinking
I'm not okay with that. And so it a light
bulb went off for both of us when you put
it like that, because I never imagined I had never
known what that felt like, and yet suddenly we felt like,
(40:02):
you know, should we hold hands, should we walk down
the street together? Is it okay? If we give each
other a peck or you know, a loving kiss or whatever,
because it's I say, as he kisses my shoulder. But
there was a dilemma that I had never felt that
you all live with. I'm assuming most days, yes.
Speaker 5 (40:25):
And I think it's also surveillance, right, It's like two
different types of surveillance. Like queer people are continuously surveiled,
and there is this like all these different viewpoints trying
to find the thing that is out of place, right,
And you guys also came from a different kind of
(40:46):
form of surveillance that had to do with you guys
being actually on like media and on camera, and so
you were already being surveiled and then you guys decided
to like live authentically within that surveillance and surveillance don't
like that like that like like surveillance does not like
(41:10):
you stepping out of place. It's kind of like that
big brother thing, you know, it's like, oh, what are
they doing? You know, like we did to go for them,
And yeah, it's very interesting.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
I just have a couple of more things here for you,
one of them having to do with something you said
and you talk about surveillance, and you talked about we've
been talking about shame here, and I was embarrassed. You
explained it at the event, the so Who Else event,
But I had no idea that when you were brought
(41:47):
on and when the producers brought on as a guests,
I had no idea that you were asked to kind
of uh and you know, I will, I'll let you
say it the right way, but kind of tamp down,
to dumb down, to not be sow this or sow
that for the camera and for the sake of the
(42:07):
of the conversation. I had no idea about that until
you told me at the SOHO House event, and I
was embarrassed and hurt that that even came your way.
I guess that's maybe not It wasn't a surprise to you,
But can you explain you're you're asked to come on
and again to everybody? It was called Conversations with Black Men.
(42:30):
I was hosting this roundtable. I had one guy who
was kind of an entertainment guy had an activist, and
I had we had Justice and Justice was supposed to
represent a certain segment of black manhood and you came
on Justice. What was it you were trying to explain
to us that the producers were explaining to you how
(42:50):
to be when you got on the air.
Speaker 5 (42:53):
Yeah, yeah, thank you so much. I think with going
on conversation with the Black with Black Men, I knew
that I had to be fought.
Speaker 4 (43:03):
For to be there.
Speaker 5 (43:05):
I knew that my perspective was like being like, I
knew that people were fighting for me to be there
because I don't think it was like a normal thought.
Speaker 4 (43:17):
To have someone like me on that panel. And also
I did feel pressure to.
Speaker 5 (43:27):
Like conform, and I think it was just like this
double surveillance again that happened, where like the surveillance of
knowing I'm a queer person here, but then there's also
the surveillance of like Disney and ABC and knowing like, oh,
like I am, I'm not Disney. I have to create
(43:48):
this version of me that is palpable and like stays
close to the status WHOA. It was just like hey,
like stay, don't go too far, you know, And that is.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
You were told not to be too much of yourself.
Speaker 4 (44:14):
Yeah, don't go too far. Yeah, but I think.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
How did you feel? How did you feel when the
producer said that to you?
Speaker 5 (44:22):
The truth is I'm also like kind of used to
it though, Like I know that sounds wild, but like
I'm kind of used to it, and I kind of
already like read between the lines and figure out like,
oh yeah, like I am probably one of the first
people like me to be here sometimes like I understand that,
(44:44):
like I'm already kind of creeping into something that is.
Speaker 4 (44:51):
Uh like uncharted territory for someone like me.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
I'm actually surprised, is it someone said don't be yourself?
Because you know, we're always talking to people, were saying, hey,
be yourself, like for you know, answer questions honestly. But
to know that you're telling someone don't be too much
of yourself or don't be it's almost like saying, don't
be too queer, don't be too black, don't haven't you
been told? Know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
No, No, you just you nailed it. I'm good by
one hundred percent. Get it soon as you said that.
That does everything else. I get it now. But I
felt bad and I apologize because I obviously missed something.
I wanted to make sure you were comfortable. I remember
you came in. You were a little shy. I mean,
you were the one that didn't have as much I
guess on camera experience or TV experience, certainly new experience
(45:39):
like that. I was actually making an argument that I
wanted you to sit closer to me on set because
you were kind of more of the quiet. I say,
I need good physical proximity to maybe be able to
talk to justice, make sure justice is open and comfortable.
You were on the end, which ended up working, and
you were great for that panel discussion. But I was
(45:59):
good going out of my way to try to make
sure you were comfortable, not realizing that I was battling
my own show team that was trying to get you
to be something else. So for that I missed and
I apologized, but it was just it was so I mean,
it was so wonderful to hear you at the Sawhouse event.
You stood up and said you remembered, and you recalled
(46:21):
how I tried to make you feel comfortable. I had
no idea if I'd ever see you again the rest
of my life, and I'm just sometimes we get it right,
and maybe Mama Rays is right. And I was trying
to make you as comfortable as possible. So that meant
a lot that you stood up and said.
Speaker 5 (46:35):
That, yeah, it was great, like it might be things
that are kind of going out of styles like the
media training.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
Thing or like yeah, that's help, you know.
Speaker 4 (46:46):
It's like.
Speaker 5 (46:49):
And I feel lucky that I'm kind of in that
space where those things are falling apart because people want
to see the real versions of people within media, like
as an artist, like I don't have to always bite
my tongue. But the truth is is that, like I
do know that there will be moments in the future
(47:12):
that I will have to weigh those two things like, hey,
do you want to be Do you want to really
say that right now?
Speaker 4 (47:24):
Or do you want to plan to seed and.
Speaker 5 (47:34):
Grow and move forward within your own career and things
that you want and then you can come back and
be like all right here.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
It is just it's so interesting hearing you say that,
because yes, TJ just said, that's very mature of you
to not be immediately offended and say this is me,
take it or leave it, because you actually have a
goal to win the hearts and minds of folks who
want to put people in certain categories and say, ah, see,
that's why I don't like them because they say this,
that or the other. But I wonder, after having had
(48:05):
the experience you had and getting a little bit older.
If approached and told to do the same thing, would
you comply or would you say I appreciate what you're saying,
but I'm gonna be me, Like do you feel like
now you might be more willing to say what you
really feel versus let someone tell you to water yourself down.
Speaker 5 (48:28):
I think what I would have done is I would
have been like, okay, cool, like I get it, but
then I would have just done it anyway.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
Yeah, Like I like that, do you.
Speaker 5 (48:36):
Know what I mean? I think that's kind of what
I would have done. I would have been like okay, cool, yeah, but.
Speaker 4 (48:42):
Like just done it anyway.
Speaker 5 (48:44):
Like personally, for me, I am still learning to be more.
Speaker 4 (48:52):
Steady within myself.
Speaker 5 (48:54):
I am still learning to like take up space and
not always be you know, like sunshine and rainbows. You know,
like even the thing you're like, oh, justice like lights
up a room, and I think that is also a
defense mechanism.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Wow, toxic positivity is that what it's called. I think
that's what my daughter told me.
Speaker 5 (49:13):
Yeah, it's like it's like, oh, like I half light
up the room or I'm gonna be the villain or
they're gonna find out I'm the villain lady.
Speaker 4 (49:19):
You know what I mean. You know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (49:21):
They're gonna find out that I'm plenty somewhere or like
I am you know, I have like I am stressed,
and I'm not always happy, and I have anxiety, and
I am depressed and all these different things. We're gonna
find that out if I don't beam. So I need
to beam being beam.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
You know, And sorry, man, we need you to. I
was like, I can't wait to talk to Justice. Justice
got so much good great. We don't want to hear
justice for us.
Speaker 5 (49:53):
I know, I know, but it's true, you know what
I think. But I think that is often a thing
with marginalized people.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
It's like we have to you know, excellent time and
have a bad dame. Yeah, yeah, well, Tila, you you
meant and I mentioned at the top here, but you
are You're a You're a filmmaker. You're on film. Okay,
I think it's two maybe three. Notes on a Siren
is your latest that came out this year. But this
(50:19):
is the second of the third helped.
Speaker 5 (50:20):
Me of my films. Yeah, this is kind of this
is like kind of my second. But I've done some
like commissioned films, for like between like for like Calvin
Klein and MTV.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
But Notes on a Siren is the latest one and
it keeps everywhere I read it calls it a video essay.
Is that an accurate accurate description of it?
Speaker 4 (50:46):
Yeah, it's a video essay. It's uh.
Speaker 5 (50:50):
Me really like turning the camera back on myself again.
Like I also went to school tiss for acting for
two years and I was like, I need to I
want to see more stories that incorporate me in the
ways that I want to be incorporated. And I was like,
I guess I have to do that for myself, and
(51:12):
so I kind of got swooped away in the filmmaking
of it all, and Notes on a Siren is my
reintroduction into being on camera and looking at actually how
the camera does transform us and like what does that
surveillance make us into? And like for me, I found
(51:36):
I with the mockumentary and kind of this whole thing
we've created with that film is it made me into
this possessed siren creature.
Speaker 4 (51:46):
By the end of the.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Movie, Well you gotta watch it. I mean, whatever you're doing,
you take it. It's fourteen minutes or something, a short film, right, Yeah, Okay, yeah, yeah,
I watched it, and I saw more of Justice than I.
Speaker 2 (52:00):
Than I.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
Yes, I watched You said you watched it, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (52:10):
You know, and it was bold, you know. It was
my first movie was like literally like Black Disney.
Speaker 2 (52:17):
You know.
Speaker 4 (52:18):
It was like Patter.
Speaker 5 (52:19):
Raise a black Boy, Little Boys in the Woods, everything
so beautiful. But this is just like, I don't know,
it's like, you know what, I want to be a
bit more honest and push myself and have and not
(52:40):
be confined, you know, and like that's really it.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
Like I was like, all right, you were not confined
in this, uh, this film at all. It's called Notes
on a Siren. It might as well be called notes
on My Naked Black ass' it's it's.
Speaker 4 (52:55):
My naked black ass.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
Play with that title, would you want?
Speaker 4 (53:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (53:02):
I think I'm also like, I'm like, what else am
I going to be able to be naked on screen
like that?
Speaker 2 (53:08):
I mean, definitely do it in your twenty So I
think that's a really that was a good call on
your part. Go ahead and do it when you're at
your finest.
Speaker 5 (53:14):
Yes, I was like, we're gonna preserve this on tell you, Lloyd,
it's gonna be there, and you know that's that.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
On that and again I'm laughing that we joke about it.
That is not what the film is. Yes, there's a
moment of expression in the front, the mirror and the
whole thing you're going through, but it is kind of
a trip, a journey you take people on, and it
is artistic and it is really cool. It's not something
that I would have naturally probably gravitated towards if somebody
just randomly told me about it, but obviously I checked
(53:44):
it out because of you. But it clearly shows talent
and it's cool and it's it's fun to watch, and
I think everybody should check it out. It's called Notes.
Speaker 2 (53:52):
On a Siren Well Justice, Thank you so much. I
can't wait to see what's to come, because you are
just beginning and you are finding your voice and through
art and it's just beautiful. And just the fact that
you were able to stand up you touched us, You
touched everyone in that room, and you're going to continue
to do that in so many ways, I know, through
(54:14):
your art and through just being you and feeling that freedom,
that shameless freedom to be yourself. So thank you. You inspire us,
and we hope everyone listening was inspired by you as well.
Speaker 5 (54:25):
Thank you, you guys inspire me as well. I'm so
thankful and yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
Yeah, Justine, love you, brother Bankes. You tell you, folks,
we said hello, the family said hello, and we will
see you back here in New York.
Speaker 4 (54:37):
All right, Okay, love you guys too.
Speaker 1 (54:39):
All right, folks, that is absolutely one of our favorite
people that we've got the chance to spend time with
over the past a year and a half for a
lot of reasons. But we will be seeing justice here
in studio, and folks, we again appreciate you so much,
those of you showed up at the Soho House event
and those of you who were hearing from and it
(55:01):
has sparked an idea in US, and we give our
friend Martin credit for coming up with the idea of
the Soho House event. But we are getting request and
we are putting together a potential plan to maybe come
to a city near you, not a city near you,
your cities. A lot of people says city.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
Or year you. I guess it's maybe saying that we're
going to go to some of the bigger cities. And
so yes, we are kind of putting a list together
of the cities that we would like to maybe initially
start with see what the receptionist see. If you all
are enjoying coming to see us live on stage, it's fun,
it's exciting. Anything can happen. You can ask us anything.
(55:40):
That's the other cool part. We love the idea of
opening it up to questions. It worked out well in
New York, so we hope the same would be said.
But I know we already have a few cities in mind.
Speaker 1 (55:50):
Yeah, so that's something else that we are considering it again.
And we appreciate you all for embracing us, and we
might be in a city right around the corner from
you very very soon, So folks, thank you so much.
Of course, you can always find us on our Instagram
at Amy and TJ Podcast. Now we'll see you soon.
Hey, there are folks. In this episode, Amy Robot goes
back to Catholic church. But why is it that I
was the one who felt like he was burning in hell? Also,
how a self proclaimed Jewish mom helped us in our
hour of need. Plus, I have drinks and I party
with Amy Robock's ex husband, and we are considering coming
(00:27):
to your city. We'd like to hear if you'd like
us to come by. And finally, our guest today poses
a question to us, and it may be the most
intriguing question we've been asked in a year and a half.
And with that, everybody, welcome to this episode of Amy
and TJ Robes. But first, can you call women out there? Girls?
(00:47):
Help me out? Why is it that you all wear
things that are clearly uncomfortable for the sake of being cute?
Robock helped me with that because we dealt with this.
We've been dealing with us for the past couple of hours.
You ain't come right now.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Well, I have been trained since I can remember, Oh
trained you my mom and my grandmother that if it's
pain for beauty, it's pain worth having. You know, if
you're telling me I have to endure something because I
have to have some like medical treatment to survive, then
I'm going to complain. But if it's just to look better,
I got this.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Why is that? Why that mindset? I don't think guys.
I don't think guys do that, But why, Like I
think classically heels, you all will do whatever to wear
some sexy heels just in pain.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
But your legs have never looked better in heels, so
it's worth it.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
It's bizarre that you're no matter what I say, you're
justifying like I am the idiot for questioning that you
all might do this, not that you all might say.
You know what, maybe we should not be sacrificing our
physical comfort for the sake of looking good for whoever.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
It's just it's just the level of pain and what
it's worth. So there's a scale. You know, I'm not
gonna go be in I'm not gonna be suffering, but
if it's slightly uncomfortable but I look great, I'm gonna
do it.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
You're telling me you've never suffered for the sake of
what you how you.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Looked heals one percent. I've suffered without a doubt. So
you see when I walked a little slower ten maybe
it was like a seven on the scale of pain.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
And we're talking about it now. I don't think it's pain,
but it's comfort you you today ever since I came by, right,
I came back by at ten am, and we were
just INU just me and you and Ava, and you're
adjusting your outfit. You kept, like, uncomfortably, you continued to
adjust your outfit. I didn't know what was going on,
and then I pieced it together, but you explained, and
then we got on the train and you were still adjusting.
(02:34):
Now you look adorable. Don't get me wrong, you are.
You are summer cute. I mean, it is fantastic, y'all
can't see it right now? She has this orange top
on what do you call this thing? It's what it's
a halter top, a halt the top. It's orange, it's bright,
it's banging. She has this short little skirt.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, probably you can't wear a bra with it, okay,
So should I go here like normally? I mean, you
can go into the drug store, you can go anywhere
and get these little sticky things. So in lieu of
a bra, you're just you know, not exposing more than
you'd like. And so I left my sticky things at
your place.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Okay, what are those things?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
What they're called? They do? We know what they're called? Pedals?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Pedals.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yes, you can either like buy the ones that are
one and done so they just stick on to you
like a band aid, or you can get the kind
that have a little bit more silicone in them and
they just kind of stick to your chest and they
stay put. Well, I don't have them, so I use
you gut. Girls are going to laugh, so everyone knows.
This is also something that drives me crazy. Sports bras
(03:34):
you need a little padding sometimes, but they have these
inserts that come out constantly and you have to constantly
move them around, and when you're washing them, they fall
out in the dryer. I want to create a sports
bra that has them in place. Okay, sorry, okay, I'm
getting a preach from our producer here. Yes, uh, one
hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
So I took those out of a sports braud I
put them Wait what, I put them in my shirt
so that I have a little bit of but they're
not sticking like my sticky ones do, so they're moving
around a little bit.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Okay, but you didn't have either of those options this morning.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Well, no, I have that on right now?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Oh, you have that one. This is what you're wearing.
This is why you're adjusting. Folks don't know. I am
holding in my hand a weird padded thing that looks
like something you would use at a restaurant to even
the table out underneath if the tables. Okay, that goes
to the sports ra The reason I know that the
(04:30):
sticky things were not an option because the sticky things
are on my nightstand this morning.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Yep, that's exactly what happened. So it's not that I'm uncomfortable.
I'm just adjusting because they're moving around a little bit.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
But that's what I mean. You're uncomfortable, You're not. You're
you're constantly adjusting something today.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
But thanks for sharing on my phone.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
But no, it's not a beauty No, no, no, I didn't.
That's not a beauty secret. Every woman knows what you're
talking about. Just I didn't understand why it was still
worth it to you to constantly adjust or have it
on your mind for the sake of being banged.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
I just didn't want them to be anything extra showing
that shouldn't that's all.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Well, you look great, hey, and yes, everybody, I didn't.
We didn't plan on starting with that, but hey, that
was the train ride. But we have had a heck
of a week here last few days, the last few podcasts,
I think a lot of no, we appreciate it. We've
gotten a lot of feedback from you all, and it's
resonated to some degree, or at least a degree. We
were very proud of the event we had at SOHO
(05:33):
House in which it was our first time speaking in
front of a live audience. But the other episode of
the podcast that really got we got a lot of
feedback on and we were so proud of and happy
about was the episode that had that featured your parents,
who were happy, we're just coming to town because your
daughter was graduating high school, and we kind of just say,
you know what, let's just happen. It wasn't a plan.
(05:54):
It really happened the day before the plan came together.
And what an episode is absolutely my favorite.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Yeah, I mean you know what. It was sweet because
it was your idea. To be specific, you said, hey,
would your parents do the podcast with us? And I said,
I think so, but let me ask, And then we
joked and my mom wanted to know what we were
going to ask her, and you assured her it was
going to be nothing that she didn't already know the
answer to. But I've never seen them more comfortable. I've
kind of forced them over the years wherever I've worked
(06:21):
to do certain things on camera, and of course it's
not the thing you do for a living. It's a
little jarring, and you kind of are overthinking what you
should do or what you should say. But I saw
them at their absolute most comfortable. Honest, I was impressed
by them. But what I was most impressed by was
not only everyone's reaction to them, but your reaction to
(06:43):
them specifically. I appreciate everyone, by the way, who wrote
in on Instagram or on social media just to say
kind things about them, because everything that you wrote is true.
They are a salt of the earth, wonderful, beautiful, pious,
hard working, earn like beyond, and just to see other
(07:04):
people recognize that made me so happy. But I also
told you you sat yesterday and started to speak. You
re listened to the podcast.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
That was my first times it almost a week so
we recorded it. I didn't listen to it till almost
a week after we did it. It had already been out
there so yeah, I just as I was getting round
this decided to put it on and I was blown away.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
And you came over really enthusiastically talking about how much
you appreciated my mom's honesty and her feistiness and her
humor and then my dad's quiet wisdom.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
He nailed it every time.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
And you said that, and honestly, like, I got tears
in my eyes seeing how much my man, my guy,
not only loves my parents but respects them and maybe
even more importantly likes them. And that has been huge.
But you know, that is a big deal. With potential
in laws or just family members of the people you love,
it doesn't always go that way.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
But you know, I've liked hanging out with your parents
for years.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
You have. You've always said that, And I've hung.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
With your parents with you not around for years. You
have and almost preferred to hang out with your parents
when you're not around.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
You've taken it a step too far. Okay, sorry, but
I genuinely felt so, Like, you know, it's like when
someone tells you they love your child, when you'd say that,
you know what I mean, Like it's like an extension
of you and that you have no control over to
a large degree, and when you came over and just
were genuinely because I let's just say this about you.
I think you can be honest here. You don't necessarily
(08:37):
like a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Does that sound so bad?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
It's just you are discerning, you have You're very honest,
and it takes a lot, I think, for people to
impress you. It does.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
What I'm saying, I don't. I don't waste time trying
to fool somebody into thinking that I like them or
I want to spend time with them. This was a
lot of people said was to my detriment in media
and in big corporate in a big corporate world, I
never I've hung out. I've had bosses and presidents of
companies that I loved and hung out with as friends,
but never asked them to do anything for me. But
(09:15):
I've never been one to go kiss the ring or
try to make good with the boss just because. So yeah,
and to that way, discerning, I just if I like
you, you know it. If I don't like you, I don't
want to spend time with you. It's you might not
know it, but.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
You probably do know it.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
It's not because he's mean to me. It's because he's
he didn't show up, or he didn't call back, or
he didn't message back, or he did it's probably more so.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
That I don't want that to be a negative because
one of the things I love about you is that
you are who you are. You don't put on airs,
you don't pretend you're the opposite of being a bullshit
or you are as real as they come. So in
a weird way, like because we were always friends, I
remember always feeling extra special because I knew you liked me,
(10:01):
and I was like, yay, he likes me, because you
know what when you do. But anyway, you came over
without them ever knowing or hearing or ever imagining that
I would say anything, but just I was so blown
away at your reaction to them and what they had
to say. So it was really it was really great.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
So we left that podcast recorded with your parents. They
were here for the graduation now you all. We recorded
that at nine thirty in the morning that Thursday, and
I mean it was a rat race. After that. We
left the studio and we had to get set up
at your home to host about thirty people, and you
all had to leave for the graduation, which was at five,
(10:43):
but you all left plenty early. So I am left
at the house. There's no ice, there's no beer. There
was wine, but the food was coming. I had to
receive because I didn't actually go to the graduation at St. Patris.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
We had a very limited number of tickets at Saint
Patt's because of the seating capacity.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Maybe, yes, so I am okay being the good boyfriend,
which is great. That's that's fine. Okay. Now when you left.
Before you left, that was a little bit of a
panic because you got that many people. You need ice, yep,
drinks to keep things cold. The last thing I've said
to you when you were trying to order things, I said, Baby,
(11:23):
order too much ice.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
You said, whatever, you do, order more ice than you
think we need.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Whatever you think. It's like being at the movie theater
and they give you butter and you say, hey, when
you think you put too much, put some more butter on.
It was one of those things, Baby, order too much ice.
I can let ice melt, but if I don't have
enough ice, it's gonna be a problem.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
So you go to church for the graduation, yep, which
was at five. This was all we should look at it.
I assure it was the hottest, most humid day on
record in New York City this year.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
It was crazy. I've not felt that kind of humidity
at all in maybe a year, like other than being
in New Orleans. It was that human.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
There was that human. So they all go to the graduation.
They're sitting inside was the was the cathedral air condition.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
It was lovely.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
That's awesome. So I am. I'm at the house. The
food comes. Wonder if we have enough. I'm sweating, y'all.
I'm literally in her home with sweatpants on and no shirt.
It's hots. Also my inside outside.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
And my AC doesn't work so well in the back.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Though, yeah, but yeah, and even one in the front
unevenly does run.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
It's a really New York City.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
What I'm saying, y'all is it was hot. The ice comes.
We have a cooler in this little outdoor area. The
ice comes for thirty people. There are one hundred cans
of beer and stuff that came. The ice isn't enough
to even fill up a third of the cooler. Whoops,
a third.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
They were five pound bags, not twenty third.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Was called the cooler. So right, they're at the graduation.
I know they're going to be back at six thirty,
and people are going to start coming at seven thirty,
so it's five fifteen, five point thirty six o'clock. I
try to order ice Instacart and it says it can
be there between six fifteen and seven forty nine. Like, oh,
that's cutting it too close. I gotta go get ice, yep,
(13:17):
and a lot of it. So this is what happens, y'all.
I do put on a.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Shirt at least before I leave, but you with sweatpants
and dress shoes.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Else I'm walking down in through Tribeca, y'all with sweatpants
and tasseled dress shoes, it's true, and a T shirt.
And I go to a seven eleven and I say, ma'am,
I need ten bags of ice, but I can only
carry about five on my own right now. Can I
pay you for them all? And then I'll come back
and make another trip. The lady says, you poor thing,
(13:47):
gives me a trash bag out from behind the counter,
says try this. I walk back with six bags two blocks.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
In the heat like Sandy Claus.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Literally off me. I dumped that ice. I grab some
bags you have at the house. I go back to
seven eleven fill up with another. I think it was
twelve bags.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Oh my gosh, while you're in church yep, and air conditioning.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
You should be on fire.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
But you know what's so sweet? He does all of this.
I come in, I don't know what he's been through,
and he doesn't tell me until the next day. He
was like, I didn't want to make you feel bad
or to worry about it, so I just did it.
I didn't say anything about it. He didn't say one
word until the next day.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
The whole party took place that night. Nothing. But the
next morning she got up and I woke her up
like this, like rattling ice in earth. Hear that ice? Baby.
I got started to see.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
There's a reason why we have an ice is what
it is. I was like, oh my god, I'm so sorry.
You're like, that's why I didn't tell you. That's why
I didn't tell you.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
But it's all right. The party was great. I mentioned
at the time, I was partying. Yes, I was having
drinks in the kitchen and having conversation with your ex husband.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yep, your first, yes, my first yes.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Ye're yes. At least the name is Dad was a
part of the festivity.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yes, yes, their dad Tim and his wife Jess, who
they're both lovely people. They flew in from South Carolina
and so they were there and we were all in
this apartment together with my parents and by the way,
Sabine as well came in for the festivities and it
was beautiful. It went off without a hitch. I don't
think I've ever had a party where I've had so
(15:28):
many people I'd never met before, because it was parents
of other young women who were all there together, and
it really just was this beautiful and you you made
it perfect, so thank you. Thank you. Had ice in
their drinks and that was very important.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Every every michaelob Ultra was cold.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
It was. It was indeed.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
The other part. Look, we had a series of podcasts
here that kind of got I guess got on more
of a personal note, but it was back in March
we told you all with the last couple of episodes,
we had an event at Soho House here in New
York and it it went well and we've gotten great
feedback from you all as well about the episodes. But
(16:17):
that only came about because of a friend of ours.
Mortin Akachuku is his name. He's the head of a
company called what Works, but a friend somebody went to
college with, but a robot we connected with here, reconnected
with I guess this year and he was the one
that sat us down and saying, you know, what you
guys should do? And it was his idea and we
said no, he said, not that sounds crazy. First of all,
(16:38):
nobody's going to show up. Who the hell wants to
show up and listen to us say anything was our
first thing. He just shook his head like, you don't
even know, you don't even know, so it it was
not our idea. We want to give him credit for it,
but us complaint said nobody's going to show up. There's
no way in hell. And sure enough, when tickets were
made available, he sent me a note said tickets went up,
(17:00):
they were going in an hour. So all the tickets were
going an hour. We had a packed house, a lot
of standing room in the house. But it was a
big deal because we hadn't faced an audience in the
year and a half.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, I mean, and we talked about it when we
first started. If you all listened to the first live
episode from the SOHO House, I mean, we were saying
we were nervous. But my god, here just to explain
just how nervous we were. I mean TJ was pacing
and our hands were shaking, like if you put our
hands out, they were shaking. We had not been in
front of people other than a few select folks, so
(17:35):
we knew we were safe with We had never opened
ourselves up to an audience. We didn't know who said
yes to the tickets, we didn't know who was there,
we didn't know who would ask us what questions, and
we knew we were opening ourselves up to being asked anything,
and we genuinely prepared ourselves for every the worst, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
The worst. We actually had a discussion about security. I said, sweetheart,
if so and so one happens, if this happens and
we need to go here, I'm gonna grab you and
were We actually had that discussion.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
And not to be dramatic, I mean, this is the truth.
I had multiple emails that involved death threats. When the
first pictures went up, people were so angry, not just
about what they said was behind our relationship, but just
the fact that we were an interracial couple. I had
some racial fueled, you know, hateful emails that actually went
(18:25):
into descriptions about how they were going to kill us both.
So yes, there was genuine like, I know those are
outliers and random folks, but you just can't not take
that seriously in those moments when you first put yourself
back out there in the public.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
And we were in a position we walk into the room,
we didn't essentially see the room until they Martin introduced us.
Here's Am and TJ. And we walk in and we're
seeing the room for the first time. Lights were on us.
It was we actually still couldn't really see the audience.
We didn't know who was in there. We knew we
had family members in there, the girls were in there,
we had friends in there, but we didn't know. But
(18:59):
it I can't tell you all and thank you all
enough for those who attended, but for those who received
the last couple of episodes of The Way You Have,
we appreciate it was a very big deal for us.
It was cathartic for us, and it was a It
was a way to turn a page in a lot
of ways, and we appreciate it. So thank you all
for taking the time to listen. For those of you
all who showed up, and one person who showed up
(19:21):
that night, and I mean it it was we had
We've been asked a lot of questions. We've considered a
lot of questions over the past year and a half.
This was one we hadn't even thought about and it
it jumped out at us and it threw us off
at the time. But it was such a good feeling
to know that the person that was asking us this
question is somebody we had no idea it was going
(19:43):
to be in the room, and who was kind of
somebody from our past to a certain degree that we
had worked with more specifically. But to know that this
person that showed up meant a lot, I think, and I
have no thing I've talked about this with you. To
know that Justice, Justice is a name showed up. It
(20:08):
was kind of a wow moment for me and it
actually put me at great ease when Justice stood up
and asked the question. But I have it right that
we felt the same. The question that Justice asked was.
It threw us like wow. I never thought about it
that way.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
It was an amazing question and we didn't know. I
hadn't And it took you, I think, a second to
put two and two together. Who was asking the question
because again bright lights on us, we see someone stand
up and ask this question, and all of a sudden
you say, justice is that you justice? But it was
remarkable because yes, he made a parallel that I hadn't
even considered. Because if you all have listened to the
(20:43):
last two episodes, you'll know that our theme was shame
and shedding shame but acknowledging it all the same because
we're all in different ways go through it, but specifically
about relationships and then figuring out how to hold your
head up high, figuring out how to own your truth,
own your story, and not take on shame, especially when
it's coming from other people. And he made the parallel
(21:05):
between the LGBTQ plus community understanding exactly what that's like.
And I had never even thought about it from that perspective.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
I even thought it was unfair to make a parallel sometimes,
like that's not fair. You're going into your unique thing
and there's no reason to find but it is there.
I think there's some solace, even in some comfort, in
making those parallels. But Justice is at NYU grad a filmmaker,
actor writer here in New York, and I got to
(21:36):
know justice for the first time when we had Justice
on as a guest conversation between black men and something
we did at Good Morning America. Justice was a part
of that panel discussion. And someone who lights up a
room when they walk in and you call justice at
the end that night, you coined it, and you're one
(21:57):
hundred percent right. What did you call justice? At the
end of that night?
Speaker 2 (22:00):
He looked to me and sounded to me like a
black angel, and that black.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Angel is with us. Now, Justice, say something. Make sure
now she sets you up. So whatever comes out of
your mouth now needs to sound very black and angelic.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
Oh you want something that's on mute? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Nothing, you know what, I love it.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
We all like that's just perfect. Actually, you know, we're
all imperfectly perfect. So there you go. Whoops, mute on
mute Justice.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
How are you doing.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
I'm good? How are you guys? Thank you for having me?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Oh please, this is an absolute pleasure. I think maybe
even that night at the SOHO house we talked about
like we got to get you on. I you know what,
it was Robot more so than anything, say we've got
to get Justice on. And I can I start first
with pronouns. Your pronouns yeah, you go want to go
(22:58):
by our what.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
I think as like identity.
Speaker 5 (23:01):
Culture has become more and more like a parent and
kind of more incorporated in our culture. I start to
feel a little bit more pressure to like pick one
and pick a pronoun and like.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
Kind of hold everyone to it.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
But for me, I kind of think of pronouns for
myself as a like reflection of like my relationship with people.
And I am always kind of in this fluid space
of you know, like I'm going to the gym and
I'm putting my snapback on and and like my sweaty pants,
(23:43):
and like, I know that I look like a guy
during this moment, and I'm not gonna probably like I'm
not gonna get mad at someone says, hey, dude, what's up,
because I know they're at least talking to me and
at least want to connect with me. One thing that
I also try to use for myself is like I
think the best thing you can always do is call
someone by their name to like to them, you know,
(24:06):
and like people, that's people's favorite word. Also, you know,
like people love hearing their name, so like you could
never go wrong by being like hi Jacob or Hi Emily,
like they're always going to be fine with that, you know.
But also I also really I was doing a lot
(24:30):
reflecting when I was hearing your Getting Ready Today's story, Amy,
because I was like, oh my god, Like for me,
I've been learning that feminine is so much about like work.
There's so much work to be feminine, like being person
that a person that was born male. It's like, oh
my god, Like that is almost like what the feminine
(24:54):
essence is. It's like continue it. Like in the Western society,
it's like and like putting something on and keeping that together.
And you know, like even today it's like the minimal
amount of makeup I have on and YadA YadA is
like it still has to be placed right.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
You know.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
And I thought about it, you know, and even when
I like go out and people might think, oh, that
could be a girl, like that took a lot of work.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
And I think all women are doing that, you know
what I mean. I feel like all women are doing it.
Like yes, we act like it's just.
Speaker 5 (25:27):
Like trans people or queer people getting themselves up. I'm like, no,
everyone is doing this.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yes, we None of us walk up like this, none of.
Speaker 5 (25:35):
Us, none of us looked like this. You know, and
so we're all putting it on.
Speaker 4 (25:40):
So yeah, that's funny.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
I'm so happy you can relate to that. That's just
many stories. I know.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
I'm like the amount of like I don't know, just
like shirts.
Speaker 5 (25:54):
Sometimes I'm just like, I don't know why I decided
to wear this because I can barely move, you know,
like I like I can't move in this dress or whatever.
Speaker 4 (26:04):
And I'm like, oh, like you.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Basically walk out each day saying how much discomfort can
I tolerate to look like this? And then that's the
decision exactly exactly, And guys are like, then what?
Speaker 4 (26:18):
And then sometimes I.
Speaker 5 (26:18):
Think that about it, like you look so good and
I'm like, oh my god, yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
It was worth it.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
But I was totally worth it.
Speaker 5 (26:25):
I Like it's a word that I'm like, oh my god,
I've been pain pain, had to toe pains.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
What was it like being you growing up in Nebraska?
Did you see other people like you? Did you feel
out of place? Did you feel like you were able
to become the full version of you there?
Speaker 5 (26:53):
I think I became a full version of myself Part one.
I think about that a lot, and I've learned to
not necessarily resent Nebraska because it does give me peace
and solace in times where like, you know, I've been
in New York for.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
Almost eight years now, I think it's seven.
Speaker 5 (27:13):
But like when you're in the middle of everything, it's
time sometimes nice to be in.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
The middle of nowhere.
Speaker 5 (27:21):
And with growing up in Boystown and growing up in Omaha,
I think I learned something that is really important, Like
I learned the importance of like brotherly love and as
a person that loves men and has queer relationships. I
(27:43):
feel very lucky that I felt that I had like
a community as a child, and now that community has
shifted and change. But I was never I always felt protected,
you know, because I had like eight older brothers, you know,
who were like, well, if you talk about justice, we're
ready to fight you.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
You know. So but when was that for you? What
age was it for you that you knew something that
you were starting to realize and recognize how you felt
it might have been different from some of the other boys.
And then what is your we always ask, right, what
was your coming out story with your family and friends?
Speaker 4 (28:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (28:23):
So I think for me, like I've always been who
I am, and I think actually more and more now
I'm getting back to that person. My mom tells the
story of me watching like Glenn closes one hundred and
whatever Dalmatians and me like getting like a blanket and
like doing the whole performance as Crello Deville.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
You know, I was like full performance, foul drag.
Speaker 5 (28:52):
Crello Deville, like three and it was just like and
I was just like, that's it.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
So you started your villain earrow way back.
Speaker 5 (29:03):
Then, oh, way back then. Like I knew, I knew
who I was meant to be. I knew I was
meant to be a villainous woman and that and that
is you know, I'm working towards that every.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Day, you know.
Speaker 5 (29:17):
So, but yeah, I think my coming out story was
I'm it's always evolving. Like I came out as gay
my freshman year of college. There was this boy that
I had like this really cute summer romance with that
was also from Omaha, and I just like was like, well,
(29:39):
I'm actually doing gay things, so I should.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
Come out as gay.
Speaker 5 (29:42):
Like you know, like at first, I was like, I'm
I don't know if I'm gay because I didn't do
gay things.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
When I was like, I'm doing.
Speaker 5 (29:47):
Gay things now, so that I'm gay, you know, and
then over my time in Nebra, I mean in New York,
I started understand gender and kind of understanding that sexuality
is different than gender, and you know, kind of opening
that range up and now kind of like continuously coming
(30:12):
now in different ways. I guess, you know, it's like
I'm always I feel like I'm always shifting, I'm always changing,
and uh, but why is that?
Speaker 1 (30:22):
What's the shift and change? You seem so the whole
time I've known you. It's only been a couple of
years now, but you always seem to be comfortable in
your own skin with who you are, never hiding anything. Again,
maybe it was the relationship we had, maybe it was
the environment that we had, but you sound like you're
still there's still some evolution of justice that's taking place.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Yeah, I think, you know, I think it is the comfortability.
Speaker 5 (30:44):
I think like when we always connect, I feel like safe,
you know, And I appreciate that from you. But I
think I also grow. I'm also want to And I
moved to New York at seventeen. I went to a
space that I went to, a bubble that like allowed
(31:06):
me to be comfortable. I like went to NYU and
like it was like, oh yeah, like everyone's gay. Like
it was just like like it was just like, so
what are you gonna do? Like do you want to
go to Brooklyn? Do you want to see this drag show?
Do you want to go to I mean, you want
to go to this party?
Speaker 4 (31:23):
Like it was just like.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Just as it's so funny. So you know, my daughter
is about to be a senior at NYU, and she
was actually just telling us about the drag and Playhouse.
I don't know if you've been there, but she was
at playhouse last night and with telling me all about
the drag show and how she got pulled up on stage.
And so when you said everybody's like this at NYU,
I'm laughing because you're not wrong.
Speaker 5 (31:44):
No, I'm like like and then there's the bubble, but
then you know, like you have to leave the bubble
and like something to come back here. I'm like, oh,
like I am different and you have to just I
don't know, maybe I'm also delusional or like I sometimes
have that feel like I actually live in a little
bit of delusion where like if I don't have like
(32:06):
this radical optimism around, like self confidence and believing in
myself and believing in other marginalized people like I would
just have like crippling anxiety and just fall apart.
Speaker 4 (32:20):
So it's like I have to choose it.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
To the point, Justice, I have a question, are there places?
Have there been places where you don't feel safe being you?
Speaker 5 (32:29):
Yeah? Of course, like I've felt unsafe in I think
my high school. I remember my high school right before
I left for college was twenty sixteen, and like the
whole like beginning of the Trump thing, and I was
just like friends were turning on me and family, friends
were turning on my family, and it was more honestly
(32:55):
racial than anything. This is just my my my life.
I felt more optracized race wise than queer wise, because
even within the queer community, like we can't deny like
there's like rampant racism, you know, like the queer community has,
(33:16):
especially with like white gay men, they have this very
fascist perspectives. They have their own kind of like like
you have to look like this and you will like it.
There's a lot of dynamics and that can review apart.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
So wait, did that right, Justice, that you you you
feel more racism within the LGBTQ plus community than you
do as essentially in the community as a whole, do
you feel more racism? No, okay, not as a.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
Whole, but I feel like it's equal.
Speaker 5 (33:48):
I wouldn't pay that it's more, but I do feel
like it's definitely equal. And the thing is, is that
also the scary. One of my mentors last night this
to me, who was actually one of my professors, is
that it's really scary when people who have power or
privileged think they're innocent. And I thought about that and
(34:13):
I was like, oh, yeah, you're right, and like I
think specifically with like white gayness, it creates this like, oh,
but I'm not a white straight man.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
You know, I'm innocent.
Speaker 5 (34:28):
And then it's like, so I can fetishize black men,
I can adopt these these like ideals around like beauty
and that is, but I am innocent because I'm also marginalized.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
I wanted to ask, I want to go back to
the SOHO House event again. We didn't know you were
going to be there, and I hadn't talked to you
since I don't think I had since you come on
for again conversations with black men special that we did.
You though, got up at the SOHO House event and
there were two moments that night. Yours was one of
them that put us at ease in such a way
(35:18):
that we couldn't ever have planned. But the first moment
was when I had actually told a friend of mine
who was a big time producer we love and respect
about the event, and she said, at the end of
that event, whatever you guys do, you need to make
sure those people just want to get up and embrace you,
(35:39):
like put just hug you. You got to make sure
how have you come across. Make sure you don't say, oh,
we were done wrong, and make sure you don't go
out there and do all that hooton and holland you
go out there and you explain yourselves and you talk
and you be sincere and they should want to put
their arms around you. And sure enough, when we got
done with our talk and we opened it up to questions,
one of the first things that happened is you said.
(36:02):
She announced herself as a.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
I'm a Jewish mom, Yeah, Jewish mom, and she said,
the first thing I want to do right now to
both of you is give you a hug. And I
looked at TJ because he had told me. I was like,
oh my god, that was amazing, Like that's exactly what
you know. We were hoping there would be some level
of connectivity. And we're not playing the victim card. We're
not saying poor us. We're just all sharing an experience
(36:24):
that everyone can understand, which is that feeling of shame.
And that was what we were hoping to do, just
to connect. So anyway, yes, she stood up, Tej, you
got off the stage and you gave her a big
old hug, and I just thought, oh my goodness, this
is this is perfect the moment, but.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Then moment too, just this was when you stood up
and we didn't couldn't lay eyes on you because again
the audience was dark. We had the lights on us.
I still couldn't see you. But when you said, you
gotta be fucking kidding me, he's in here, and you
asked the question that we had not considered. He said,
do you all feel some kind of connection parallels with
(36:58):
the lgbt Q plus community with the idea of your love,
your relationship not being accepted. Do you feel some kind
of shame because it's for some reason your relationship is
looked at as one that is not accepted, And we
had never considered that before. So if you can help
(37:19):
us here for a moment. We haven't talked about it
that much, but that question, where did that question come from?
And what did you see? Again, we hadn't talked, but
I guess you'd seen the past year and a half
what she and I had been going through. But where
did that question come from?
Speaker 5 (37:34):
I think it came from really just like I think
seeing what had happened over the past year and a
half and feeling solidarity there and feeling that frustration and
(37:56):
feeling frustration that kind of I have with my own
relationships and not feeling that they're validated. I just really
felt you guys, And I was like, oh, this is
kind of that. I was like, oh, there's there's like
in that moment. I was like, Oh, that's the connection.
Like I didn't know why I was so un I
(38:18):
was like, so I felt so weird about it, but
I was like, Oh, that's the connection because queer people
are constantly like attacked for the way that they love
and there's so many like stigmas around that, and uh.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (38:39):
And I was also there on a date too, and
my date was like kept like whispering to me and
saying like, oh, I think this this feels like very
queer in a weird way, and I was like, yeah,
I think so. Like They're like, yeah, like we this
is like what we do all the time. And I
was like, yeah, you're right, like that is the feeling
(39:01):
that there's like a continuous fight, you know, for love,
and and they were there, Lido shout out to you
was like was like.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Or as he was known that night, the white Man.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
My white Day, but nobody. It was so incredible because
I started thinking about it. You know, I know in
New York it probably mostly feels like a safe space
to hold hands with the person you're with, or just
to walk down the street in a loving way with
someone who you're with proudly with your head held up high.
(39:40):
That isn't something that just comes naturally or easily, I
would imagine, because you're thinking, everyone walking down the street
is judging me, Everyone walking down the street is thinking
I'm not okay with that. And so it a light
bulb went off for both of us when you put
it like that, because I never imagined I had never
known what that felt like, and yet suddenly we felt like,
(40:02):
you know, should we hold hands, should we walk down
the street together? Is it okay? If we give each
other a peck or you know, a loving kiss or whatever,
because it's I say, as he kisses my shoulder. But
there was a dilemma that I had never felt that
you all live with. I'm assuming most days, yes.
Speaker 5 (40:25):
And I think it's also surveillance, right, It's like two
different types of surveillance. Like queer people are continuously surveiled,
and there is this like all these different viewpoints trying
to find the thing that is out of place, right,
And you guys also came from a different kind of
(40:46):
form of surveillance that had to do with you guys
being actually on like media and on camera, and so
you were already being surveiled and then you guys decided
to like live authentically within that surveillance and surveillance don't
like that like that like like surveillance does not like
(41:10):
you stepping out of place. It's kind of like that
big brother thing, you know, it's like, oh, what are
they doing? You know, like we did to go for them,
And yeah, it's very interesting.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
I just have a couple of more things here for you,
one of them having to do with something you said
and you talk about surveillance, and you talked about we've
been talking about shame here, and I was embarrassed. You
explained it at the event, the so Who Else event,
But I had no idea that when you were brought
(41:47):
on and when the producers brought on as a guests,
I had no idea that you were asked to kind
of uh and you know, I will, I'll let you
say it the right way, but kind of tamp down,
to dumb down, to not be sow this or sow
that for the camera and for the sake of the
(42:07):
of the conversation. I had no idea about that until
you told me at the SOHO House event, and I
was embarrassed and hurt that that even came your way.
I guess that's maybe not It wasn't a surprise to you,
But can you explain you're you're asked to come on
and again to everybody? It was called Conversations with Black Men.
(42:30):
I was hosting this roundtable. I had one guy who
was kind of an entertainment guy had an activist, and
I had we had Justice and Justice was supposed to
represent a certain segment of black manhood and you came
on Justice. What was it you were trying to explain
to us that the producers were explaining to you how
(42:50):
to be when you got on the air.
Speaker 5 (42:53):
Yeah, yeah, thank you so much. I think with going
on conversation with the Black with Black Men, I knew
that I had to be fought.
Speaker 4 (43:03):
For to be there.
Speaker 5 (43:05):
I knew that my perspective was like being like, I
knew that people were fighting for me to be there
because I don't think it was like a normal thought.
Speaker 4 (43:17):
To have someone like me on that panel. And also
I did feel pressure to.
Speaker 5 (43:27):
Like conform, and I think it was just like this
double surveillance again that happened, where like the surveillance of
knowing I'm a queer person here, but then there's also
the surveillance of like Disney and ABC and knowing like, oh,
like I am, I'm not Disney. I have to create
(43:48):
this version of me that is palpable and like stays
close to the status WHOA. It was just like hey,
like stay, don't go too far, you know, And that is.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
You were told not to be too much of yourself.
Speaker 4 (44:14):
Yeah, don't go too far. Yeah, but I think.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
How did you feel? How did you feel when the
producer said that to you?
Speaker 5 (44:22):
The truth is I'm also like kind of used to
it though, Like I know that sounds wild, but like
I'm kind of used to it, and I kind of
already like read between the lines and figure out like,
oh yeah, like I am probably one of the first
people like me to be here sometimes like I understand that,
(44:44):
like I'm already kind of creeping into something that is.
Speaker 4 (44:51):
Uh like uncharted territory for someone like me.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
I'm actually surprised, is it someone said don't be yourself?
Because you know, we're always talking to people, were saying, hey,
be yourself, like for you know, answer questions honestly. But
to know that you're telling someone don't be too much
of yourself or don't be it's almost like saying, don't
be too queer, don't be too black, don't haven't you
been told? Know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
No, No, you just you nailed it. I'm good by
one hundred percent. Get it soon as you said that.
That does everything else. I get it now. But I
felt bad and I apologize because I obviously missed something.
I wanted to make sure you were comfortable. I remember
you came in. You were a little shy. I mean,
you were the one that didn't have as much I
guess on camera experience or TV experience, certainly new experience
(45:39):
like that. I was actually making an argument that I
wanted you to sit closer to me on set because
you were kind of more of the quiet. I say,
I need good physical proximity to maybe be able to
talk to justice, make sure justice is open and comfortable.
You were on the end, which ended up working, and
you were great for that panel discussion. But I was
(45:59):
good going out of my way to try to make
sure you were comfortable, not realizing that I was battling
my own show team that was trying to get you
to be something else. So for that I missed and
I apologized, but it was just it was so I mean,
it was so wonderful to hear you at the Sawhouse event.
You stood up and said you remembered, and you recalled
(46:21):
how I tried to make you feel comfortable. I had
no idea if I'd ever see you again the rest
of my life, and I'm just sometimes we get it right,
and maybe Mama Rays is right. And I was trying
to make you as comfortable as possible. So that meant
a lot that you stood up and said.
Speaker 5 (46:35):
That, yeah, it was great, like it might be things
that are kind of going out of styles like the
media training.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
Thing or like yeah, that's help, you know.
Speaker 4 (46:46):
It's like.
Speaker 5 (46:49):
And I feel lucky that I'm kind of in that
space where those things are falling apart because people want
to see the real versions of people within media, like
as an artist, like I don't have to always bite
my tongue. But the truth is is that, like I
do know that there will be moments in the future
(47:12):
that I will have to weigh those two things like, hey,
do you want to be Do you want to really
say that right now?
Speaker 4 (47:24):
Or do you want to plan to seed and.
Speaker 5 (47:34):
Grow and move forward within your own career and things
that you want and then you can come back and
be like all right here.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
It is just it's so interesting hearing you say that,
because yes, TJ just said, that's very mature of you
to not be immediately offended and say this is me,
take it or leave it, because you actually have a
goal to win the hearts and minds of folks who
want to put people in certain categories and say, ah, see,
that's why I don't like them because they say this,
that or the other. But I wonder, after having had
(48:05):
the experience you had and getting a little bit older.
If approached and told to do the same thing, would
you comply or would you say I appreciate what you're saying,
but I'm gonna be me, Like do you feel like
now you might be more willing to say what you
really feel versus let someone tell you to water yourself down.
Speaker 5 (48:28):
I think what I would have done is I would
have been like, okay, cool, like I get it, but
then I would have just done it anyway.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
Yeah, Like I like that, do you.
Speaker 5 (48:36):
Know what I mean? I think that's kind of what
I would have done. I would have been like okay, cool, yeah, but.
Speaker 4 (48:42):
Like just done it anyway.
Speaker 5 (48:44):
Like personally, for me, I am still learning to be more.
Speaker 4 (48:52):
Steady within myself.
Speaker 5 (48:54):
I am still learning to like take up space and
not always be you know, like sunshine and rainbows. You know,
like even the thing you're like, oh, justice like lights
up a room, and I think that is also a
defense mechanism.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Wow, toxic positivity is that what it's called. I think
that's what my daughter told me.
Speaker 5 (49:13):
Yeah, it's like it's like, oh, like I half light
up the room or I'm gonna be the villain or
they're gonna find out I'm the villain lady.
Speaker 4 (49:19):
You know what I mean. You know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (49:21):
They're gonna find out that I'm plenty somewhere or like
I am you know, I have like I am stressed,
and I'm not always happy, and I have anxiety, and
I am depressed and all these different things. We're gonna
find that out if I don't beam. So I need
to beam being beam.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
You know, And sorry, man, we need you to. I
was like, I can't wait to talk to Justice. Justice
got so much good great. We don't want to hear
justice for us.
Speaker 5 (49:53):
I know, I know, but it's true, you know what
I think. But I think that is often a thing
with marginalized people.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
It's like we have to you know, excellent time and
have a bad dame. Yeah, yeah, well, Tila, you you
meant and I mentioned at the top here, but you
are You're a You're a filmmaker. You're on film. Okay,
I think it's two maybe three. Notes on a Siren
is your latest that came out this year. But this
(50:19):
is the second of the third helped.
Speaker 5 (50:20):
Me of my films. Yeah, this is kind of this
is like kind of my second. But I've done some
like commissioned films, for like between like for like Calvin
Klein and MTV.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
But Notes on a Siren is the latest one and
it keeps everywhere I read it calls it a video essay.
Is that an accurate accurate description of it?
Speaker 4 (50:46):
Yeah, it's a video essay. It's uh.
Speaker 5 (50:50):
Me really like turning the camera back on myself again.
Like I also went to school tiss for acting for
two years and I was like, I need to I
want to see more stories that incorporate me in the
ways that I want to be incorporated. And I was like,
I guess I have to do that for myself, and
(51:12):
so I kind of got swooped away in the filmmaking
of it all, and Notes on a Siren is my
reintroduction into being on camera and looking at actually how
the camera does transform us and like what does that
surveillance make us into? And like for me, I found
(51:36):
I with the mockumentary and kind of this whole thing
we've created with that film is it made me into
this possessed siren creature.
Speaker 4 (51:46):
By the end of the.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Movie, Well you gotta watch it. I mean, whatever you're doing,
you take it. It's fourteen minutes or something, a short film, right, Yeah, Okay, yeah, yeah,
I watched it, and I saw more of Justice than I.
Speaker 2 (52:00):
Than I.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
Yes, I watched You said you watched it, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (52:10):
You know, and it was bold, you know. It was
my first movie was like literally like Black Disney.
Speaker 2 (52:17):
You know.
Speaker 4 (52:18):
It was like Patter.
Speaker 5 (52:19):
Raise a black Boy, Little Boys in the Woods, everything
so beautiful. But this is just like, I don't know,
it's like, you know what, I want to be a
bit more honest and push myself and have and not
(52:40):
be confined, you know, and like that's really it.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
Like I was like, all right, you were not confined
in this, uh, this film at all. It's called Notes
on a Siren. It might as well be called notes
on My Naked Black ass' it's it's.
Speaker 4 (52:55):
My naked black ass.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
Play with that title, would you want?
Speaker 4 (53:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (53:02):
I think I'm also like, I'm like, what else am
I going to be able to be naked on screen
like that?
Speaker 2 (53:08):
I mean, definitely do it in your twenty So I
think that's a really that was a good call on
your part. Go ahead and do it when you're at
your finest.
Speaker 5 (53:14):
Yes, I was like, we're gonna preserve this on tell you, Lloyd,
it's gonna be there, and you know that's that.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
On that and again I'm laughing that we joke about it.
That is not what the film is. Yes, there's a
moment of expression in the front, the mirror and the
whole thing you're going through, but it is kind of
a trip, a journey you take people on, and it
is artistic and it is really cool. It's not something
that I would have naturally probably gravitated towards if somebody
just randomly told me about it, but obviously I checked
(53:44):
it out because of you. But it clearly shows talent
and it's cool and it's it's fun to watch, and
I think everybody should check it out. It's called Notes.
Speaker 2 (53:52):
On a Siren Well Justice, Thank you so much. I
can't wait to see what's to come, because you are
just beginning and you are finding your voice and through
art and it's just beautiful. And just the fact that
you were able to stand up you touched us, You
touched everyone in that room, and you're going to continue
to do that in so many ways, I know, through
(54:14):
your art and through just being you and feeling that freedom,
that shameless freedom to be yourself. So thank you. You inspire us,
and we hope everyone listening was inspired by you as well.
Speaker 5 (54:25):
Thank you, you guys inspire me as well. I'm so
thankful and yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
Yeah, Justine, love you, brother Bankes. You tell you, folks,
we said hello, the family said hello, and we will
see you back here in New York.
Speaker 4 (54:37):
All right, Okay, love you guys too.
Speaker 1 (54:39):
All right, folks, that is absolutely one of our favorite
people that we've got the chance to spend time with
over the past a year and a half for a
lot of reasons. But we will be seeing justice here
in studio, and folks, we again appreciate you so much,
those of you showed up at the Soho House event
and those of you who were hearing from and it
(55:01):
has sparked an idea in US, and we give our
friend Martin credit for coming up with the idea of
the Soho House event. But we are getting request and
we are putting together a potential plan to maybe come
to a city near you, not a city near you,
your cities. A lot of people says city.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
Or year you. I guess it's maybe saying that we're
going to go to some of the bigger cities. And
so yes, we are kind of putting a list together
of the cities that we would like to maybe initially
start with see what the receptionist see. If you all
are enjoying coming to see us live on stage, it's fun,
it's exciting. Anything can happen. You can ask us anything.
(55:40):
That's the other cool part. We love the idea of
opening it up to questions. It worked out well in
New York, so we hope the same would be said.
But I know we already have a few cities in mind.
Speaker 1 (55:50):
Yeah, so that's something else that we are considering it again.
And we appreciate you all for embracing us, and we
might be in a city right around the corner from
you very very soon, So folks, thank you so much.
Of course, you can always find us on our Instagram
at Amy and TJ Podcast. Now we'll see you soon.
Hosts And Creators
Amy Robach
T.J. Holmes
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