Running Scared

T.J. gets personal about his own mental health. He shares for the first time how he found his way out of a tougher time. 

For both T.J. and Amy, running has become a key element to their health and wellness. They share how and why. 

Joined by Rob Simmelkjaer, CEO of New York Road Runners, they enlighten us on how running can be for everyone. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody, welcome to this. Roebock beat me in the
New York City Half Marathon episode of Amy and DJ. Yes,
we did it. We made it. We crossed the.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Finish line right, and I crossed the finish line one
second faster than you.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
That is a true story. One hour, fifty seven minutes
and two seconds. That's the time of Samy Robock and
my time was one second more. Every race we have done,
we didn't realize this till a moment ago. Every single
race we have run in together, we have only been
separated by one second, or our times were exactly the same.

(00:40):
Isn't no amazing?

Speaker 2 (00:41):
Isn't that beautiful? That's because you willed it to be.
So it's not just by happenstance or we're just training together,
so we run at the same speed. You stay by
my side or usually just a smidge behind me.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yes, we do all that training together and then on
the day of the race, the race is the reward
from all the work you put in. So that's supposed
to be the fun time. I wouldn't. I could not
dream of running a race not side by side with you.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
That's really see we.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
Train really if we train four together then we're going
to go through it together.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
It is something to experience it with you by my side.
You know, we can see the same signs, we look
at the same faces. We can you just you feel
connected to the person next to you. So I love
running races by your side. I think I'm gonna have
to opt out of a couple of them just so
I can watch you do your personal best. I also
do feel absolute guilt that you know, you don't push yourself,

(01:33):
you don't see what your best is because you're next
to me. But I do appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
No, no, no, don't feel guilt. You really you are the
one that got me into running in the first place,
and we've all those training runs. People don't we talk
about running and people might see us make posts about running. Folks.
This is a lot of getting up at four and
five in the morning, five days a week, four months
to go out there and get ready for that race day.
So there's no way doing all that with you, all

(01:59):
that pain, and then I'm just gonna buye. I'm gonna
take off. I'll see it later at the finanh Now, I'll.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Eventually we'll get to the finish line and we can
celebrate together. But we did have so much fun. We
felt like this year's race was the easiest, calm, mist
most peaceful. We just felt like we were in a
really good zen space. And then it dawned on us
perhaps why that was so. Yes, the weather was good,
we've had other good weather races. This was specific.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
But training we trained just the same as we were
always well trained.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
But for whatever reason, we were out there kicking it.
We were having a blast, we were keeping great times.
We're like, wow, this is amazing, what is going on?
And then you were the one that kind of pieced
it together. The last couple of times we've had races together,
I've been a bit of turmoil.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yes, we've had photographers chasing us for all the wrong reasons.
We actually had to run under aliases. So this was
the first time we've run a race since we have
spoken out and taken back our narrative and you've heard
it on the podcast, and we've started to become ourselves again,
and so we felt like that for the first time.
Yes we're running by each other, Yes we're in love,

(03:08):
and our heads were held up high and our names
were on the roster, and it felt good.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
Do you remember your alias from last year?

Speaker 2 (03:14):
I was trying to think of it. Yours was really
Oh man, We'll have to come up with them later
because they were really good. I took a picture of
them and it was just so funny. I think you
were Thomas Hobart. I don't know why. I just remember that.
Oh my goodness, I can't remember what you were. See.
I remember your name because it was so not you.
It was hilarious.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
It was great to your point, And maybe that had
a lot to do. And of course running is a
lot has to do with being mental, but a lot
of what we've been going through recently and being back
out there and being social, the race was a big
part of it, and fellowship is a big part of
I guess what is fueling us and making us feel
lighter these days?

Speaker 2 (03:52):
That's right, And every time I run a race, I
am reminded of the importance of all of those connections.

Speaker 1 (03:59):
A lot of people know from uh. I guess the
end of twenty twenty two we lost touch with a
lot of people, giving what was going on with us
at the time in the turmoil, and really close friends
that we stayed in touch with, maybe via text or
phone call, we still weren't able to see and last
night this it's fair to say somebody we've been through
all kinds of ups and down with over the past

(04:19):
ten years, and we haven't had a chance to see,
actually for almost a year and a half, which is unbelievable.
But we got to sit and see a friend yesterday
and it was I think I was overwhelmed in an
emotional way, more so than I even thought I would be.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
It was a reunion, you know, and I think anyone
who's gone through something abrupt where you don't expect not
to see someone for a very long period of time,
that's exactly what happened. And so yes, I want to
make it clear we were staying in touch text, but
it's not the same, obviously, it's not the same. So
when you get to hug that person and catch up

(04:55):
with that person and see that person and how they're
doing and share stories about what it's been like, it
was just it was exactly what we needed. We haven't
had enough of that, and I think they're starting to
come now and it's made a huge difference in our
mental health for sure, because connection is so important, and
especially I think we oftentimes take for granted the connections

(05:16):
we have and the access we have to people, and
then sometimes without realizing it, it stops and there's a loss.
There's almost a mourning of that, and so you don't
maybe even realize the impact it's had until yes, you
have a reunion, and then it's a reminder to make
the effort to go out to see people face to face.

(05:37):
I think that's a big problem these days because zoom
allows you not to do that, or even texting it
feels like you're in contact, but there's nothing that replaces
that one on one face to face, getting to hug
your friend kind of feeling.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
Even face time I think fools us into thinking we're
spending time with people face to face, but we're not.
But it was I think this was another where we
came into this and we were so careful in where
we were going to meet because for whatever reason, we
felt like, hey, we don't want you to be seen
or photographed with us, just in case that might come

(06:12):
off bad for you and your world.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
Like that was.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
We've said this to some people and it's embarrassing to say,
and every friend says, are you freaking kidding me? Stop
with that, but we've been programmed for what we A
lot of what we endured. We were programmed to think
that people don't like us, don't love us, don'tant anything
to do with us. And it was really nice to
be reconnected with that friend. Like you said, people for

(06:35):
whatever reason, you don't you forget like you take it
for granted when you see them every day and you
lose them sometimes with death or they're moving. But this
one was in town with us and we lost connection,
that personal one on one time, and it was good to.

Speaker 2 (06:51):
Have it back. Yeah, reminder to anyone out there, you know, yes,
calling a friends great, checking in on a friend, but
meet up, have some coffee, have a drink, do something.
Just there's got to be that person who you know
it's been on your mind that you've lost that personal
touch with. Let this be a reminder to make that
date and to make that appointment to meet up, because

(07:12):
it does. Oh my gosh, we're still riding high. I
think from having had that meeting.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
Now, was that before or after my dad called?

Speaker 2 (07:19):
It was it was right after, but actually your dad's
called a couple of times, so it's been Sandwich. I
think you just got off the phone with them.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
Well yesterday it freaked this out because and again another thing,
parents and anybody out here you could relate to this.
Your parents, if you still have them, they're still with you. Good, great,
But how many times do you get a message from
your parents and you get a certain age, everybody starts
breaking down a little bit, having some health issues. But
you start getting more messages from your parents and they're all, hey,
So I went to the doctor the day you put

(07:48):
me on this prescription, and then I came home and
my left side is bothering me a little bit, and
then I had had some chicken last night and this
morning my heart just think right like, every mess did
you get from parents, now, it has to do with
their health, it's an update on their health.

Speaker 2 (08:05):
Whether yeah, and my mom's going through something right now too,
you know, we got I got a phone call in
December and she fell and she is still dealing with
she had to have surgery and now there's PT. But
you realize if you don't have your health, you don't
have anything. And as we watch our parents' age, obviously
that becomes the center, like the central focus, because there

(08:28):
is a deterioration of the body and so that is
what's on their minds, and that is typically what you
end up talking about.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
We feel bad in that so often we you and
I have talked about and we've done it playfully, yeah, like,
oh my goodness. All I did was said hi, and
then she talked to the next thirty minutes about our health.
Like it's almost how you feel bad or complaining about
it and jokingly.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
In some way, but it's, man, it's serious.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yesterday was serious. You you've been around planning with my
dad's around the conversations we have and how he gets
going and what he's talking about. But yesterday it sobered.
It really was a sobering reminder of how everybody's getting older.
And he had he did, he had a cardiologists appointment
that was coming up the following day. And you said it,

(09:15):
but I couldn't tell, like, dude, is it serious or
is it not serious? He's saying, well, I might have
to go to the murderency room. I'm packing a bag
in case they don't let me come back home, Like
what the hell? And then he say, yeah, it's fine,
no big deal. But you pointed out to me that
you know what he was actually trying to comfort me,
and what he was saying.

Speaker 2 (09:32):
Yeah, and you could tell he was nervous and he
wanted you to know that something could happen, but then
he was trying to make you feel better about it.
But deep down you could tell he was nervous and
was concerned. And he made the point He's like, I'm
seventy six years old when your doctor tells you to
go to the cardiologist, and that's not a it's always serious, right, Yeah,

(09:55):
good point, good point, touchet.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
But yeah, well, we talked so much about physical health.
Mental health is clearly a big part of the discussion
these days, and we were Look, I've talked, and I've
talked in some ways just on the surface about what
I've dealt with with mental health that in twenty fifteen
diagnosed as moderately severe depression, and I didn't do anything

(10:21):
about it. I didn't change any of my habits. I
didn't go on an antidepresent, I didn't go to therapy.
I didn't do anything for about four plus years and
just let that fester. And you were witnessed to like
a four year deterioration of mind and you didn't even
realize what was going on. But you have talked about
now in very scary ways, just what you were witnessing

(10:42):
at the time.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
From me, I was worried about you.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
You are.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
Let me just say this. You don't have a poker
face when you're upset or you're sad, or you're down
or whatever. I mean, it's palpable. It's all over. It's
not just in your face, but it's your it's how
you carry yourself. Everything changes and shifts, and so yes,
I saw that shift in you, and it's one of

(11:09):
those things where you want to help, and I tried,
but at the end of the day, thank you. But
but it's it's you. You're the one who has to
pull yourself up. You're the one who has to figure
out how to just shift to change, whether it's with
a prescription, or if it's through a therapist, or it's

(11:30):
through friends. I mean, there are obviously a lot of
different avenues. But for four years I didn't realize that
it went on for that long.

Speaker 1 (11:38):
It did without being addressed. When I when I finally
started dressing, it was almost too late. You talked, We've
talked about it before. I used to know how long,
how far, the how many miles It took to walk
from downtown to the ABC offices because I spent nights
literally on the streets of New York. I've spent nights

(12:02):
sitting and sleeping on a bench in Midtown. I've spent
nights just walking up and down just because I didn't
want to be home, because I didn't have it together.
So we talk about mental health, and you've talked about
how running has been such a big part of it
for you because you went through it with antidepressants. We've

(12:22):
talked about so you don't mind me saying that, But
during the time when you were dealing with your breast
cancer diagnosis and treatment that they had you go.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
That direction, right, I couldn't run. Actually then I could
barely run and a mile would be the most I
could do, and a lot of days I couldn't do that.
So I didn't have the outlet that I had always had.
So for a year my doctors put me on an
antidepressant because the anxiety, the stress, the pressure, the overthinking,
the fear, all of that just comes crashing down on you.

(12:51):
And if you don't have an outlet, if you don't
have something that you can do and use and lean on. Yes,
I had to get on antidepressants for a full year
and they help. They did it. It numbs you a little,
I mean, I don't. I think that might be the
comp the complaint a lot of people have who are
on it, because there are always side effects to any
drug you take, so that's the downside of it. But

(13:13):
sometimes that is the only outlet when you're in a
certain place or space mentally.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
But physical they warn you about physical.

Speaker 2 (13:20):
Well, you can you can, I mean there can in
some cases. There can be weight gained, there can be
there's sexual side effects where you just have no libido.
You you're numb, You don't have you might not have
the lows, but you also don't get the highs. You
don't experience a wide range of emotion that you would
have maybe otherwise. So it prevents the low, but you

(13:43):
also are numbed down from the high, which isn't something
that most people would prefer to do.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
So antidepressants, I think it makes sense. People know that
they just kind of exploded in popularity that's not the
right word popularity, ish say, but in usage during the pandemic.
And you talked about running as therapy, and I was,
I was, I didn't realize this, but it's fascinating that
the study was done. I think at the end of
last year the results were put out that they gave

(14:08):
people that had anxiety disorder depression. One group they gave
them antidepressant. The other group no antidepressant, just had them
run run as exercise. Running was their therapy for to
treat depression. At the end of this the two groups
had the almost exact same results in terms of how

(14:30):
it helped their mental health. The symptoms of their mental
health improved the same in both those groups. One group
only ran.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
And the side effects from the running were all good
versus the side effects from a lot of the drugs
are not good.

Speaker 1 (14:46):
So the conclusion is that arguably running is better for
your health and treating your depression, your anxiety anxiety disorder
is a better option for a lot of people than
to actually take antidepressants.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
And I believe I don't know if it was a
part of this study, but the cool thing is you
don't have to be a marathon or or a half
marathon or or a ten They're saying if you run
as little as one mile a couple of times a week,
the effects of that are significant and documentable, so.

Speaker 1 (15:28):
Everyone knows we are obviously big runners. But the New
York Road Runners you have heard us speak about them
quite a bit, but they're the organization that's in charge
of putting these races together here in New York, including
the United Have Marathon and also the New York City Marathon.
But a big focus of the CEO now is to

(15:51):
make running a part of treating mental health, like an
actual therapy for mental health. And that is fascinating to
me because the running I do. You got me into
it and then yeah, it did help me going through
some very difficult times, but I didn't focus on it
because of that. But I got all those benefits. Now

(16:11):
I'm just a runner and I'm loving and I missed day.
I don't feel good if I don't run. But Rob
Simulcare is the name I got the right right. I
had to look over at him and still, because we
talked and we practiced, and still we got to the moment, Rob,
and I still was unsure.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
I was hoping that you were going to do it
because I started to panic. There's a lot of consonants
in your last name, Rob, and it's very intimidating even
for those of us who had to say a lot
of fancy names over the years. Still I was like,
please let TJ say it. I hope he says it.

Speaker 3 (16:42):
He nailed it. That's true, broadcast professional.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
But ro we were actually we wanted to get to
you earlier, but we were going back and forth. I
hope she says it first.

Speaker 2 (16:50):
Oh, he says it.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
But but Rob Simulcare is, yes, the CEO of New
York road Runners. It's good to have you. Appreciate everything
your organization has been doing for us over the years
and so apporting us and our running and helping us
get the message out. But this was something that I
think goes beyond just putting on shoes and running and
having a good time and being a community event. And
why is it? And I think I said it right.

(17:12):
You want running to actually be mental health therapy.

Speaker 3 (17:19):
Well, first of all, thank you for having me. It's
great to be with both of you, and I want
to throw the thanks back to you because both of
you have done a lot for New York Roadrunners. You've
run with us, Amy, You've been a supporter of Team
for Kids and all of our community programs, our youth programs.
So it means a lot for us to have you

(17:39):
guys in our community, and I just want to thank
you for having me here. TJ to your question. Yeah,
when I became CEO just over a year ago, one
of the things I did start talking about a lot
was the mental health benefits of running. And you know,
people who run, and you guys are what you just
said in the intro, I say it a whole lot better,

(18:01):
right in terms of like the the impact that runners
know running has on their mental health. And I when
I ask people why they run, you know, and I
talk to people to finish line of our races or whatever,
I'd say, the most frequent answer I get is mental health.

Speaker 2 (18:17):
Right.

Speaker 3 (18:17):
The people will put it in different ways. They'll say
it's a stress relief, or it clears my mind, or
you know, it just gives me that moment to kind
of be, you know, with myself, especially if they just
kind of run alone, and so various very you know,
different variations of it, but they're all saying that it's
the impact that has on their minds that really drives

(18:39):
them to keep doing it over and over again. And
so it's a real thing. Some people call it the
you know, some people call it the so called runners high, right,
and that that that's something that is a term that's
thrown around sometimes, you know, for people who run a
long way and how you feel afterwards, but you don't
have to run to Amy's point long distances, you know,
a consistent habit of two three miles a week just

(19:01):
to get out there. That feeling of you know, getting
your body moving, getting your heart rate up. It's magical
for those of us who know it, and so I
want more people to know that, so that folks who
are struggling again. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a substitute
for other forms of mental health care like therapy or
medication as it's needed, but for a lot of people

(19:22):
it can make a big difference.

Speaker 1 (19:23):
Will you put this runners high? Will either one of you? Actually?
Because I hear it all the time, and I've been
running a long time. I got a couple of marathons
under my bell. I don't know if I've ever had a.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
Runners really yeah, I would say it's rare, and so
people are chasing it constantly. I would say I have
had some runs, I've got the right song on, the
weather is perfect, I've just hit whatever mile eight and
I'm thinking to myself, I'm a badass, and I just
feel like I could take on the world and I
feel powerful and it's almost it is you for it.

(19:56):
And I'm singing and I'm making a fool of myself
as I'm running around along the West Side Highway, probably
singing like let it Go, like from Frozen or something.
I mean, you've never had that. I've seen you sit
there and sing. Oh you sing when you run?

Speaker 1 (20:08):
What I thought, is it a physiological something over that
sounds mental to me? I have plenty of times I
got the right song on, the weather's just right, feeling myself,
my shirt off, I'm sweating just right, man, it feels
like that runs.

Speaker 3 (20:23):
Yeah, And I think Amy described it well and what
I've experienced right, which is for me, it's a feeling
like I could just run forever, you know. And it
usually comes when like I've been running a fair amount
and my body's right and my mind's right, and the
weather's right, and everything's kind of just working, and I
just feel like I could just keep going forever. So
that's what I think of when I think of the

(20:45):
quote unquote running is rare, but it's rare, okay. I
think it's somewhat rare. I think the day to day
benefit of running is not rare, right, I think that's
what you can get with a consistent habit of running,
you know, a few times a week. And I personally,
I don't know what time of day you guys run,
but I'm all about the mornings, right, Okay, so we're

(21:06):
all the same. And I have a phrase I use
actually with people at races. I say, when the morning
win the day, right, and so much much, so much
of life, especially if you're going through a rough patch,
if you're feeling depressed or hopeless or whatever. So much
of life can be just getting out of bed, right,
like that decision, that conscious choice to like get up,

(21:28):
believe that something good can happen to you that day.
And if you get up and have that run, and
now check, right, a good thing already happened today, Right,
I already did something. I accomplished something today. It's like
it's like a snowball going down the hill, and the
momentum from that can get you to the next thing,
and the next thing, and the next thing, the next thing.
You've had a great day.

Speaker 1 (21:46):
Some people say just simply getting up and making your bed.
It should always be the first thing you do because
you accomplished a task. You have seen this. I'm not
sure how I feel about you, though, and you getting
up and running. Let me finish. I didn't start that right,
Let me try again.

Speaker 2 (22:01):
I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
I let's not do this in front of company robot.
But the I you know, it can adjust my whole
day and my I get mad sometimes that I didn't
get the run in. Nothing else can go wrong in
the day. I'm just mad I didn't get to run it.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
I you did not run one day this week, and
I thought, uh oh, buckle up for the rest of
the day because DJ didn't run. That's not a good time, but.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
It is a good once you get into the routine,
into the habit. Where do you for the folks who
are listening, who do want to run, who want to
get it. They love everything you're saying, it's so difficult
to get them to take that first step. Or I'm
not a marathon I'm not a big time running all.
What what is that? You've had some good one liners here,
So what is the short speech you give people to
get them started.

Speaker 3 (22:53):
I tell people that if you run a mile, even
a half a mile to start. Congratulations, you're a runner, right,
you have gone out and you've made it happen. I
think it's great to start with other people. You know,
if you can find a friend or a running group
that you can join so you're not on your own

(23:13):
doing it. I think that's an added benefit. You know,
we have a program here in your called Open Run,
which is a free running program that's in parks and
we do it every single weekend, and so we've had
a lot of people discover running that way showing up
at a free free run group and just giving it
a go with some people. And you know, it's intimidating
for a lot of folks if they haven't done it,
because they're like, well, I don't do that, and they're

(23:34):
gonna be fast and they're going to be in great
shape and I'm not that. Now you go and you
find your people, you find your tribe, and you just
do it. And you know, I think runners are overwhelmingly
like open and supportive and like want to support other
people getting into the sport. But even by yourself, you know,
you just go out, find a track, find a good
block on your neighborhood, and go around once and then

(23:57):
that turns into twice, and that turns into three times.
And you don't have to have a half a marathon
in your sights or a marathon for sure, right. You know,
maybe you get up to a few miles. Guess what,
that's a five k right, So it's a progressive thing.
But you know what, do they say the longest journey
must start with a single step, right, And it's the

(24:18):
same thing with running. You just got to get that
first step.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
I think the hardest part about running for me is
walking out the door, like making the decision, seriously, making
the decision to walk and to go outside and to
start the run. Once I'm going, I'm good. And even
when I've had tough runs, which I've had some recently,
when I do finish it. Even I had to stop
the other day, I think you had a story too,

(24:41):
and I still finished it. I might have had to
cobble it together, but I finished it. And I have
always looked at running as a euphemism for life, because
especially when things are hard, I know I've had those
hard runs, but I also know I have hard days.
But if you finish it, the next one may be better.
It gives you hope. It gives you purpose, and it

(25:01):
does give you that feeling of accomplishment which creates this
positivity even on a negative day, even on a bad run,
I can still look back and say I learned something
from that run about myself and what I have in me.

Speaker 3 (25:12):
So I gave a speech at the beginning of the
TCS New York City Marathon. This year was my first
time as CEO for that race, and what I said
to all the runners at the starting line in Staten
Island was congratulations. And I was like, well, maybe you're
wondering why I'm saying congratulations to you. You're at the
starting line. You haven't run the race yet, right, But

(25:34):
you got here, right. And it's really hard to get
to the starting line of races, especially marathons. We know
how hard that is with all the training, But just
to get to the starting line of a five k
or to your point, Amy, just to get out the door, right.
All those people who line up at the starting line
of a marathon have gotten out the door day in
and day out, and so that's the accomplishment, right, And

(25:55):
whatever happens for the twenty six point two miles whatever,
that's the gravy, but the key was getting to the
starting line. So you know you say it, it's you
said it perfectly. It's a metaphor for life. And I
think the reasons so many runners are successful people in
various endeavors in life, yourselves included, is because you know,
when you're running a marathon, that option to quit is

(26:16):
always right there. It's in front of you. It's so
easy to just quit. And people who finish they didn't
take the option. They never took the off rame.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
They thought about it a lot.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
And Brooklyn is hard. You want to stop at all
those pubs.

Speaker 2 (26:34):
Love you. Oh, there is a stretch there in Brooklyn
that you just you want to say. You see all
the red solo cubs. You're like, I think I'm going
to stop and join their party, but they are partying.

Speaker 1 (26:44):
What is we put this? It feels like I think
it is the greatest day in New York every year
is in New York City Marathon. I don't know where
that comes from, or how it's just over time or what,
but the city embraces they're not runners, they don't have
anybody running in it, but the city just gives you
a big old hug and you feel it almost every

(27:06):
step of that journey. How special is that day? Do
you see anything that happens in New York that is
more special that we all come together in that way
to root on people.

Speaker 3 (27:20):
No, it's the best day of the year in New York.
Obviously I'm biased, but I think most people agree, even
the non runners agree that it's just a special day.
And I just think it's because you've got folks out
there cheering on strangers. You know, they're there to support
people they don't know. Yes, a lot of them have
a friend running or something like that, but while they're

(27:41):
waiting for that friend, they are cheering for the strangers.
They are, you know, putting up the signs. I love
the signs.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
Signs are great.

Speaker 3 (27:48):
They're so key, you know, to getting runners through this race.
The funny signs. You need to laugh during a race
like that.

Speaker 1 (27:55):
Yes, so my favorite. The first race I did, I
didn't know about the signs, right, And what was the
one that said don't trust that fart?

Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, I think it's after mile whatever right.

Speaker 1 (28:05):
In the half marathon sign that says I'm only half impressed.
I didn't like that one. That was offensive to get here,
But some of the signs they do carry you through.

Speaker 2 (28:14):
Oh without a doubt, and just the time that people
have taken to make it and to pass things out.
I mean, normally I wouldn't take a banana from a
stranger or an orange from a stranger, but I do
on marathon day.

Speaker 1 (28:26):
Yeah, they just pull it out of the box with
a dirty hand. Sure sounds like a good idea.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
Well, you know, fuel is fuel at that point, right,
what does it I'm curious. Fifty thousand runners typically in
the New York City Marathon.

Speaker 3 (28:38):
Last year, you're fifty fifty one and change.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
Yes, how many people do you have to turn away?

Speaker 3 (28:43):
Well, we have over one hundred thousand who apply for
the drawing every year. We're actually, as we speak taping
this podcast today, we're in the middle of sign up
period actually for the marathon, and so we're already you know,
well over a one hundred thousand. Don't know where we'll
end up, but we we get a tremendous amount of interest.
Of course every year, and there's different ways to get

(29:04):
into the marathon, but the entry drawing always gets into
well into the six figures.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
That's incredible. So if you think about the fact, what
do they say less than one percent of the world's
population has ever run a marathon, and you have fifty
thousand people who can't even get into the marathon because
there's such a demand. That's a pretty remarkable, remarkable thing
to What do you attribute.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
That, Well, the marathon has been popular for a long time.
The TCS New York City Marathon in particular is such
a big part of New York that I think so
many people have it on their bucket list of something
to do, So I think that's been a long standing thing.
I think what's different now, though, amy is all of
our races sell out. It's not just the marathon. We
are literally sold out for the five k that's in

(29:49):
Central Park or the ten k in Queens. All of
our races sell out, and they sell out very quickly
as well. And I think that is my theory at least,
is the pandem right. The pandemic was such a tough
period for so many people. There wasn't anything else you
could do but run, right, if you wanted to exercise,
I mean, you could do sit ups in your bedroom

(30:10):
or whatever. There was stuff you could do, but like
running was the choice that so many people, you know,
found and so people started running during the pandemic and
now post pandemic. I think a lot of it is
because of the mental health component of it. The community
that people have found, maybe in the running club they
joined or the set of friends they got to run together.
They've stayed with it, they stayed with the running they

(30:32):
discovered during the pandemic. And so we're just seeing numbers
that are through the roof for all of our races.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
And I remember that time during the pandemic, I had
the Brooklyn Bridge to myself morning after morning because I
run so early, first of all, but there was nobody out.
And I'm how many times in your life you just
stumped on the bridge behind my What time was this this?
I used to run like five six in the morning,
just when sun was coming up. But now with I say,

(31:06):
every morning we wake up.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
Oh, the first thing he says to me, is you
ready to run?

Speaker 1 (31:12):
That's That's not a joke, folks. It doesn't matter what
time it is, what's happening.

Speaker 2 (31:17):
Not I love you, not good morning, four fifteen? Are
you ready to run?

Speaker 1 (31:20):
Run?

Speaker 2 (31:20):
And what do I say back?

Speaker 1 (31:21):
I know the answers always know, usually not yet, not yet, yes,
let me get my coffee. You used to say that
you don't.

Speaker 2 (31:30):
Do that anything, stop the coffee before the run.

Speaker 1 (31:32):
Okay, what it is? A do you see? You said
the pandemic kind of helped with some numbers of people running.
What else happens when you to cause a spike if
you will and people kind of signing up? Is it?
It could be a maybe a celebrity, a particular celebrity
getting a lot of tension running a marathon. Is it?

(31:53):
I don't know, some renewed focus on health that's in
the news. What what is it that kind of ends
up prompting people where you where you still to see
another wave of people want to.

Speaker 3 (32:02):
I think it is mostly social and friends, right, I think?
You know, I know a person who got into running
because her friend said, you know, you had a rough year.
You need to have a better year at the you know,
and and so why don't you sign up for New
York Roadrunners and start running? And you know it changed,

(32:25):
you know that person's life. I've met people who moved
to New York, didn't know anyone here and went on
our website and found a run club and that became
their set of friends. And maybe they met a boyfriend
or a girlfriend or whatever in the run club. If
people find their community through running, and that, to me,
that's actually the best part of it, is the community

(32:47):
that you find. And the run club scene has just exploded.
I mean, we've got all these new clubs that have
come up and have registered with us on our website,
and we have a we have a whole club points
competition throughout the year at road Runners where the clubs
compete against each other in all the different age categories
and all this stuff. So that's a huge part of it,
and I think that's what's really keptic. I think they

(33:10):
started for the runs and they stayed for the people.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
That's beautiful. And I love running with friends. All the
marathons I've run, I've run with friends. We challenged ourselves
and did a double marathon. We did Chicago and then
New York. You all helped get us into that. But
just to do it with friends, I can't even imagine
doing it alone. I know some people do, and that's great,
but I love the social component of it and to

(33:34):
share in the experience, to look back and forth, and
to just be a part of something outside and larger
than yourself. It really is this. I can't think of
another thing that a normal, I should say ordinary person
could do where you'd have thousands of people cheering for you,
Like unless you're an Olympian or you're a professional football player,

(33:54):
some sort of professional athlete. The only way you can
experience just maybe a small amount of what that feels
like to be cheered on and to push through pain.
It's running a race, and it could be any race.
It doesn't have to be a marathon, but that is
I wanted to like in the moment, and you want
to share it with the people next to you. But
this is unique, This is special, and not many people

(34:16):
get to feel this excitement other than professional athletes, and
it's remarkable. Why do How did you get started with running?

Speaker 3 (34:28):
I ran cross country and high school. I remember that
there was a gym class where I think I was
in seventh grade, and the teacher was like, Okay, I'm
going to go run the mile. Let's see, let's see
what you can do. I was really a baseball guy.
Baseball was my favorite sport from forever and still is
in a lot of ways. But so baseball was my focus.

(34:48):
But we went out and ran this mile, and I
think the first mile I ran was like six to
Oho one or something like that. It was something in
that neighborhood, like it was in the low sixes. And
the gym teacher was like, Okay, you should really be
on the cross country team. So I was like, okay,
I didn't even know what cross country was. So they
got me running across country. I was into it because

(35:10):
it got me out of gym class, so I didn't
I didn't have to you know, go hang out, you
know during during gym class. I could do whatever I
wanted to hang out in the library or whatever. So
I started running cross country and I would do that
in the fall and play baseball in the spring, and I,
you know, I had kind of a love hate relationship
with a cross country If anybody out there is ever
a running cross country, it's intense. You know, You're you're

(35:30):
running five days a week and you're doing hill repeats
and you know a lot of intense workouts. So in
some ways I loved it. In some ways I kind
of hated it and really wanted to do baseball. So
I played baseball through high school, you know, went to
college law school, and I kind of rediscovered running in
my last year of law school. I was in Boston

(35:52):
and I went out. It was actually a baseball connection.
I went out to the Red Sox game on Patriot's
Day in Massachusetts, which is a state all day. The
Patriots play an eleven am game, sorry, the Red Sox
play an eleven am game, and then you walk outside
and that's the day of the Boston Marathon. And so
I walked out and saw the finish of the Boston
Marathon and I was like, I saw these people crossing

(36:14):
the finish line. I was like, I've got to do this.
This looks amazing. And so the very next week I
sent in for an application to the New York City
Marathon and was lucky enough to get in my first try.
It was a while ago before you know, it was
quite as hard to get in maybe as it is now.
And that's kind of what got me back into it.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
I didn't know that. But what what How did you
go from? Why do you want to be the head
of New York road Runners. You're a lawyer, you have
a like you're Harvard or an excuse me at least
ivy leave because I have to have a hard lost.

Speaker 3 (36:46):
That's where I was going while going Boston.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
Let me get it right now, But you go from that,
But you always wanted to be the head of this organization.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
Well, you know, I had a lot of great roles
in my career. I practiced law for a few years,
and then I was in your world for a while.
I mean I was at ESPN and I bit at
ABC News, and so I did the media thing. And
I loved sports and loved media, and so I spent
almost twenty years between ESPN, ABC and NBC Sports in
that world and got to do some amazing things, both

(37:17):
in front of the camera and mostly behind the camera.
But I loved sports and I loved New York, right,
and so when this opportunity came along, and I'd run
two marathons, you know, the first one, and then I
ran another one like sixteen years later, And when I
got a call about this, and I just said, Wow, Okay,
it's running, it's New York, it's sports, and not only that,

(37:38):
but it's also for a purpose. You know, it's got
a mission. So it's not just and I you know,
I'd spent my whole career in for profits, so you know,
it wasn't just money and shareholder value and the stock
price and all that. It was, Hey, we're actually trying
to help people through running, you know, we're trying to
do change lives, and so I couldn't resist that. The
kind of checked all the boxes for me of some

(38:00):
thing that I wanted to do, and and right here
in my hometown. So it's been great.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
Did you you Pauls as well when he said he
ran a six oh one in high school.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
Yes, I was blown away. I've never run anything in
with a six in front of it at all.

Speaker 1 (38:15):
If folks are listening, you're not a runner and have
a handle on this. If a six minute mile is
elite from a high schooler, that's definitely you must have
been the national champion that year.

Speaker 3 (38:31):
I mean, you know, I could run a decent clip,
but I mean you got you got guys out there
running sub fives left and right. So I mean I
was fast for my school for sure.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
But I said, you were a high schooler, Hey, go
run a mile. You just put together a six. Yeah
it was okay, he knows that's a big deal. That's
not a small thing. You know.

Speaker 3 (38:52):
What's funny is and by the way, speaking of times,
I actually brought some of your both of you time,
I decided to do a little look at some of
your times. You know, I run about as fast now
TJ as I did like twenty years ago. Wow, And
I don't really know. I look at that and I'm like, Okay, Well,
maybe that's good because I've stayed in shape, or maybe
it's bad because I should have been a lot faster

(39:13):
than I wasn't pushing myself hard enough when I was younger.
But you, guys, I like the times. First of all, Amy,
you know a great track record of running. You go
back to twenty seventeen. Do you remember what your first
race with the roadrunners was?

Speaker 2 (39:27):
No, I don't.

Speaker 3 (39:28):
It was the twenty seventeen Shape Women's Half Marathon. Oh right,
April thirtyeth twenty seventeen.

Speaker 2 (39:34):
The funny story about that one is I wasn't ever
intending on running the whole thing. I was doing a
relay race with Sarah Haynes, and I said, I'll do seven,
you'll do she'll do said we ran one mile together.
So I did six miles by myself, and then she
and I ran six to seven together, and then I
was going to stop, except for I didn't want to stop,
so I just kept going. So I'm sure that time
is awful because I was huffing and puffing and hyperventilating

(39:56):
when I crossed the finish line because I didn't train.

Speaker 3 (39:58):
Not awful, It was two twenty seven. You're at eleven
eighteen pace and you're.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
Yeah, it was bad, but you don't understand what it
was like the last three months.

Speaker 3 (40:06):
Now look at you. Now, you you ran the half,
the twenty twenty three United Airlines NYC half in a
pace under nine minutes a mile.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
I did was it one fifty four four? So I
shaved off thirty minutes of a half marathon?

Speaker 3 (40:23):
Really good? I mean you shaved a lot of time
off over the course of your time running.

Speaker 2 (40:28):
You don't know why because I actually trained. When you
don't train, it's really hard, and then when you do train,
it's a lot easier. I learned that the hard way.

Speaker 3 (40:39):
It does make a difference and your marathon times, Amy,
I mean, you are you are definitely within range of
running a sub four hour marathon and you are at
four fourteen. So how big? How big a goal is
that for you?

Speaker 2 (40:51):
It's been a goal. I've run five marathons now, I guess,
and I keep wanting to get that sub four and
we we almost we had it.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
We were it was we had it last. So the
four to fourteen was the last one, right, yes, okay,
so if you know, I don't know what we've talked
about it here, but yes, that was a we were
on pace to crush a sub four. We were on pace.
All of a sudden, she wants to stop at every
water stack.

Speaker 2 (41:18):
I got, I got.

Speaker 1 (41:20):
What's happening here? So I turned back and looked back,
and she's having the water, but she's slowing down real slow.
And then twenty two two.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
Sick.

Speaker 1 (41:30):
Yeah, oh, and we had to pull over what was
at least a five plus minute stop for a marathon.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
That's time.

Speaker 1 (41:39):
It was tough.

Speaker 2 (41:40):
And then you can't get your mojo back. You just
can't get your rhythm back. And I was so frustrated
because you don't know what's going to happen race day.
I haven't figured out, still, even after five marathons, how
to fuel myself without getting sick. It's it's a it's
a it's a dance. What do you eat before, what
do you eat during? What do you how much do
you drink? How and how what's the weather like? Every
think there's so many variables, but yes, I do want

(42:02):
to get a sub for that is something I've always wanted.

Speaker 3 (42:06):
If you were on pace that long, it means you
can do it.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
I know I can't. I know I can't.

Speaker 1 (42:11):
And if I was, I don't know, a little more selfish,
I would have kept going in.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
I know, Oh you could. You could probably get a
three thirty. I bet.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
All right, TJ. I'm looking at your times now, and
they should be exactly with hers. Most of them are,
but Brooklyn, because you ran Brooklyn exactly the twenty twenty
two Brooklyn Half, very impressive, one forty six two a
an eight six per mile pace. So you're talking about
that about a six minute mile, but that was just
one mile. You ran thirteen miles, just about eight minutes

(42:52):
a mile. That's legit, that's impressive. That's impressive.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
I ran that one by myself. I noticed.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
I know, and I've said that the whole time. I
know that you would be in a much better category.

Speaker 1 (43:06):
To your point about community, there is no way after
training with her for for a marathon for five plus months,
training for a half marathon for three plus months, that
going through all that with her than on race day,
I not be with her is not enough. It never
crossed my mind to keep going. I said, it's more
important for my personal relationship than it than to get

(43:26):
a PR. It really is. So there was no question,
and we were crushing that marathon.

Speaker 2 (43:31):
I know we were.

Speaker 1 (43:33):
She started stuff started coming out while we were running.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
I tried, well, that's what happened. I did not want
to stop, but then my body insisted, yeah, that happens sometime.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
But yeah, it's said we had. You guys have been
absolutely great, great, great, great to us and Stuart Lieberman
and your team over the years have been wonderful. And
we talk about running here a lot because we love
it and we enjoy such a part of our life,
but we don't I don't think we do focus enough
on how much it has meant to us over time
for our mental health. It really, really really has been

(44:08):
a life saver for me personally and for I know
for Robot with robog was the one who recognized something
in me that was going on and pushed and encouraged
me to get into running. So it has and you
all have been a part of that journey. So thank you, really,
thank you all for all you have done from and.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
For sharing that with the world with and your work
with children, because when you can get kids to see
the magic or feel the magic of running and feel
their own strength, so many people, but children especially feel powerless.
And when you give them this tool that they can
utilize and access without a gym, it's free and you

(44:45):
can run almost anywhere. Talk about why your work with
team for kids because it's such a beautiful thing. I love,
Oh my gosh, when I see kids running and I
see them building, it makes me so happy because I
know the joy that they're going to have with them
always able to access. I think I pushed my daughters

(45:06):
too far because I so badly wanted them to run
with me. They did do the Brooklyn It was the
Brooklyn five K I did with them. I have the
cutest pictures of that. They made it. They felt so accomplished.
But I think maybe because mom wanted them to do
it so badly, they resisted. But now I've got my
oldest running sending me pictures of her runs, and she
still won't let me follow her on Strava, but because

(45:29):
she knows I'll get obsessive about it. But I start
to see it comes back to them, even if because
it is a thing where mentally you can resist it,
like why am I doing this? This is hard and
as a kid, it's hard to explain to a kid
why you would keep doing it. But I do love
that there's a foundation and what you're creating for them,
and then yes, they can always come back to it.
I know TJ's trying to do the same thing with

(45:49):
Sabine right now, well, trying not.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
To push her, but she's on. She's eleven, She's joined
her track team for the fifth graders and got her.
She is the most beautifully outfitted fifth grader you will
ever see. I even have her coordinated New Balance shoes,
new Balance socks, new Balance bag, new Balance hoodiewali sut.
She walks in like she's about to run a six

(46:12):
minute mile. You know what, I love it's brand. But
if she's wearing shoes that actually New Balance provided gifted
to her, that end up being gifted to my daughter.
So New Balance, we are using the shoes, so thank you.
But it is it's you don't want to push them
too far, but to see them getting into it, and

(46:34):
it isn't that event you talk about in time Square.
I'm trying to get her to do that as well.
She's uh, she's not there yet. But it's just we
we love it so much and it's just meant so
much to us, and you all have meant so much
to us, and we we we can't let you get
out of here without asking because it's been in the
news lately, just what happened with the young lady, the
college student in Georgia, the runner there Lake and Riley.

(46:56):
But what what do you all certainly your heart's break,
much as you all love running and support runners, but
what is your issue maybe sometimes with the conversation that's
had around safety when it comes to running, and what
do you all recommend to anyone but women in particular
when it comes to running.

Speaker 3 (47:15):
Yeah, that was really a heartbreaking story. It was hard
for me to read that about a young woman who
was you know, attacked and harmed that way, you know,
doing the thing that we are talking about doing and running. Unfortunately,
it happens too often, you know. I actually, you know,

(47:37):
posted something on my Instagram about that, and I had
a number of women reach out to me and say,
you know, I've had issues you know, in different places
in New York City or wherever it might be. You know,
it simply should not be a thing that a woman
has to worry about her safety being harmed or harassed
to go out for a run. It just shouldn't be.

(47:58):
And it's it's frankly on everybody to make that stop.
You know, it's on It's on men, women, everybody to
be allies to people who are running and make sure
that we're keeping each other safe out there. You know.
As far as advice, I mean, we have put out
you know, some you know, some things over the years
about runner safety. You know, personally, I think the number
one thing that you can do is run with other people.

(48:19):
You know, we talked about that, and running in groups
has so many benefits. Safety is one of them. There's
no question about it. And so it's just people are
safer in groups, there's no question about it. There are
there are things that runners can can purchase and buy
to you know, pepper spray on wristbands or things like

(48:40):
that for self defense. You know, some people might choose
to do that, some people might might not want to
do that, but you know, I just think being around
as many other people as you can be when you're running,
and it's it's easy to say that in Manhattan. It's
harder to say that, you know, maybe in you know,
more rural areas. So I don't you know, I'm not

(49:00):
here to say don't run by yourself, but you know,
since safety is an issue for runners and especially women,
I think it's always great to have even if it's
just one running buddy.

Speaker 2 (49:10):
Oh, you can even have someone bike next to you.
I've done that before too as well. And I know
one of the things about running with folks and getting
the excitement to share with other people are those races
that you were talking about. And I just would encourage
anyone who's even considering starting running or starting back to

(49:32):
running to sign up for a race, because now you're
on the hook. Like now you've got a goal. And
even if you think you might not want to, you
know you have to because you've you know, you've done that.
I think I've done that to myself. You're you know,
playing a mental game with yourself, like I want to
keep going, I want to make this work. If I
sign up for this race, now I have to train.
Now I have to run. So I love that whole component.

(49:53):
I love that you all have so many different opportunities
for all types of runners. And and I just think
wherever you live, check your local running organization, because there's
a way to do it, and there's a way to
kind of force yourself to be on the hook that
race day.

Speaker 3 (50:09):
Sign up for that race, and then you know, it's
even better, tell three people that you signed up for
the race, right, put it on social media, exactly, put
it out there in the world, right, don't keep it
a secret to yourself. So now you've got people going to,
you know, ask me, oh, yeah, how's the training for
that race going? How'd that race go? Right? You got
the accountability as well.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
I love that Rob civil Care nailed it. I get it.

Speaker 3 (50:35):
It's so much easier than it looks. It is.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
It is it is. Thank you so much for coming
and again to echo what TJ said, thank you for
all that you all have done for us to support
us as runners. We tend to be a little bit
of procrastinators. So when sometimes the races are are no
longer available, y'all sneak us in anyway, So we are

(50:59):
very appreciate. Sometimes we just crashed races. We've done that
before too.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
Are you telling people this stuff? We sound like we're
getting no folks, we signed up on time, we made
the deadline. We're not getting any special privileges.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
You're just not talking. We'd like to and in a
perfect world I would have been better about it. But no,
thank you. We do appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (51:22):
There's not much we can do for you, guys to
help you run thirteen point one miles, so you got
to do that yourself. There's nothing we can do for you. There.

Speaker 1 (51:30):
Almost quit runn last year because of the because it
was really cold, cold, it was seventeen degrees. I think, oh,
I ended that race and I almost I said, I
want to quit running. That was the worst run, not
worst race. Well, that was the worst time I ever
had running in my life.

Speaker 2 (51:43):
That was the day you met rob You probably got
a really bad I guess it was.

Speaker 1 (51:49):
After the race.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
Is angry like it was.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
Oh you the head of New York Road Runs with
the with the with the Weaver. Appreciate having you. We're
going to see you plenty down the road. But thank you.

Speaker 3 (52:02):
We'll see you both at the finish line. Thank you
very much for having me. I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
But folks, you know where to find us. Of course,
Roboc and I both on our Instagram accounts, also on
TikTok and we Also you can find the show at
Amy and TJ Podcast on Instagram.