January 2, 2024 • 53 mins
In 1996, Alice decided to “bloom where you’re planted”—in prison. After receiving an unexpected life sentence, she got to work serving her fellow prisoners by helping them with vocational training, organizing plays, the very first Special Olympics events in a prison, and even loving some as they died as a hospice volunteer. And once she got pardoned, Alice’s service has only accelerated.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, everybody, it's filled Courtney with an army of normal folks.
And now we continue with part two of our conversation
with Alice Marie Johnson, right after these brief messages from
our generous sponsors. You know, the daughter of a woman
(00:33):
who grew up a sharecropper and probably the granddaughter of slaves,
if I'm doing the your mother was probably the granddaughter
of actual slaves, right right, who somehow found the good
in all people. I guess that DNA that filtered down
(00:53):
to her daughter doesn't surprise me that you would skip
in prison. She would find some light in the darkest places.
And so what you do in prison?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I started writing plays and writing plays, writing plays. That's
hilarious because I've always loved to write. Yeah, And before
I went to prison, I did a few little short
things at church, nothing very long, but I would hear people.
I just started writing because that was the way that
(01:26):
I would deal with stuff. And I wrote. I started
writing little skits and putting on shows in prison. But
the actual first thing that I did, because they put
me in BT's vocational technical. Because this woman is unusual,
she knows. I taught typing, I taught computers.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
You taught other inmates.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Other inmates.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Okay, so not everybody that you're around is in for
life in twenty five. Some got three four five a year,
So you start teaching.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
To go to get out. My role was to prepare
them for re entry, so I helped them redo theirs.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
The prison give you this.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
They gave me that role. I worked in vocational technical
and it's something how once people realize that you can
do things, they'll give you more to do.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
And experience.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah, so they realized that once I saw one person
struggling with their resume, and I wrote them a fire resume,
and then I got the newspaper and said, these are
the jobs that you should apply for. They said I don't.
I say, yes, you do, and so they started using
me more and more. But then I noticed that the
(02:47):
women who had long sentences like myself couldn't take the classes,
and so.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
They were like, don't waste the time on them, because
so is that why?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
That was exactly why they said.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
They're not them a little hope? That was my.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Question is how do you tell a woman not to hope?
How do you tell a person not to prepare for
a future. So the warden there she really liked me.
I went to her ward Yeah, the warden, Oh, the warden,
the warden, the warden, because she had seen things I
was doing in prison. I was really trying, trying, and
(03:21):
so I wrote it up as a complaint. I found
a complaint about that. She calls me to her office
and I explained why she looked at me. She said, no, Alice,
she said, missus Johnson. She said, you know, miss Johnson.
I thought about what you said. You're right, I said,
you know, warden, her name was warden. Rees. If you
(03:44):
allow the women to take these classes who have long sentences,
a lot of them are getting in trouble because they
don't have anything to look forward to in prison. They
were getting getting in trouble in prison because they're they
are shone, not allowed opportunities. So for someone who's already
(04:05):
broken and you're breaking them more, making them feel worthless.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Is actually in a prison in prison.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
In a prison in prison. So it changed things on
that compound.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
It really did, because the long, the long sentenced women,
regardless of what their crime was and what they did,
if you gave them something to do and to feel
effective and purposeful, they quit acting out as much as
prison because they had something to look forward to.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Absolutely, and so from speaks to humanity. It really does.
When you can look at someone and say you have value,
you have work. And even the place that I put on,
many of the women had never heard applause in their life.
What mean they have?
Speaker 1 (04:52):
They have never been applause, They've.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Never been applauded. No one has ever given them applause.
So to do their part good, to sing, to have
their artwork on display. Because I didn't do mediocre stuff.
I would do pageantry. It would look as if they
were going to a theater on the outside. And when
I went to the next prison.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
It hold it. How long were you at that prison?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Only a year? And I shook it. I turned it
upside down.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
That's phenomenal. We interviewed. Now. I can't help it, but
you're reminded me of so many things. Dub Ellinger is
a woman in Detroit who serves food and has homes
for trafficked and pimped women in Detroit. And the way
she finds them is she literally goes out into the
(05:45):
streets and gives them sandwiches and food and clothes. And
if only for fifteen or thirty minutes, those women opens up,
have someone to talk to, and they eventually open up.
But the thing she says that she makes she does
every time before she leaves, and she looks everyone was
on in my eyes, and she said, you were loved
(06:07):
by God and your life has value, and when you
want to get out of this life, there are people
that care enough to help you find that value. And
then they leave. And she said, eventually they come to
her and they get out of that life because they've
just never been told by anybody that they have value.
(06:28):
And you say, it's the same thing. These people have
never been applauded, they've never been graduated, they've never felt
good about themselves, they've never been recognized. The power of that.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
The power of even encouragement of showing love to someone
else who don't even love themselves. When I left there
after being there a little over a year, I was
at Carswell, the next prison for fifteen years. And where
was that in Texas? Fort Worth? When I got there,
(07:01):
it was so depressing. So many women were in wheelchairs,
some were blind, some had no legs, some of them
were mental. In the hospital part. So this was FCI
Federal Correctional Institute medical It was a medical center, but
they had built high rises because the female population was
(07:22):
exploding and less than at that time it was five years,
but in ten years it had increased by eight hundred
percent women and they didn't have enough prisons, so they
had to build high rises at other prisons to bring
women in. And we were quadruple, quadruple buk four of
(07:44):
us in this little tight space that you can't even
stand side by side.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
That's going on in our society, that our prison population
has increased by eight hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
This should tell you something. In the United States, we
account for less than six percent of the world population,
but we incarcerate twenty five percent of the world population.
It's our laws, to be honest with you. A lot
of it is driven by the private prison industry, their stock.
(08:15):
When things fail. In two thousand and eight when everything
was crashing, you know what went up, prison stock. It's
like trading humanity as.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
A tougher laws. Of course, of course they have.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
They are a very strong group because in their contracts
when they get a federal contract a private prison facility,
in the contract, they're guaranteed ninety percent of the bids
would be filled. And if it drops to eighty percent,
then the government has to pay them what they're losing.
(08:54):
So it's like, are they going to lobby against themselves.
It's not right, but it's what. It's one of the things.
And there are so many laws on the books now.
The reciptivism rate, even when people get out, is so
easy to make have a technical violation and be locked
back up again. But my life at Carswell, at that
(09:19):
medical center totally changed because there's a whole building with
unhealthy women. There's a floor of women who are dying.
There's a hospice unit. I ended up taking hospice training
when I discovered that unit, and I would many times
they would allow them when they got to the end
(09:40):
of their days, at the very end, they would give
them the opportunity to ask for an inmate to sit
with them. Because I was a volunteer, i got trained.
I never thought i'd do something like that. So I
was so busy because so many of them would ask
for me to sit with them.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
And so when you shot, while they died.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I sat with them. I'd read to them, I sing
to them why because I was given I was sold
that I was going to die. But not just because
of that. To be alone and to die alone with
no family around you, to me, was about the worst thing.
(10:23):
They didn't come there to die, they got sick or
they came in sick, and that was the only medical
facility for women in the country, so if you were dying,
you had had to come to carswell, so.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
You got transferred there because the population was the prison
population was exploding and it had empty beds.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
It had empty beds, so.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
You went there to keep the numbers up.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Absolutely, a lot of women were still and what they
called the pipeline. They were in county jails and so
they could and be moved to a federal facility because
it wasn't there weren't enough, so they had to build
more so they could get the women out of the
(11:10):
jails and get them into a prison cell on federal property.
So really for me, sitting with women, it was an
honor for me to be able to help someone transition.
But it also became when my father passed away, I
had to stop because it was too emotional for me
to be with them because my father died suddenly while
(11:31):
I was gone.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
You said, you never thought you'd find yourself working in hospice,
but you did it because you just never wanted to
see anybody pass alone, right, which is so kind really,
the depth of your kindness, I think again, that's some
of your mama's DNA coming out in you. But there's
(11:55):
this one particular story of a Catholic woman that was
in hospice I think in Texas, right right, share that
with us well.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Previously, I would always work in the chapel, volunteering. I'd
find my way back to the chapel, so I knew
about the songs that they would sing. And every time
I would have a new patient, I'd call her my
patient in hospice. I'd find out, what is your faith?
(12:25):
Because I want to read to them, I want to
do something for them. I want to honor their faith. Yes,
And so this particular woman, she was in a komatose appearance.
Her mouth was opened, her eyes were staring blankly, and
when I arrived there to sit with her, they told
me that she couldn't hear and that she didn't understand,
(12:48):
that she wasn't comprehending anything. She was in a coma,
basically a komatose state, and her family were no longer
visiting her because they couldn't stand to see her looking
like that. So I found out she was Catholic, so
I just started singing to her. I was singing a
lot to the women, or i'd read from their passages.
I'd keep them, you know, I'd just communicate with them anyway.
(13:12):
And so while I'm singing ten pea dad, which is Lord,
have mercy, I'm singing, Oh Lord, have mercy, Oh Lord
have mercy. As I'm singing Oh Lord, have mercy on me,
a tear started running down her face, and I walked
(13:32):
over to her and I started singing again. I stopped
for a moment, and I said, can you hear me?
I said, do you understand what I'm saying? I said,
if you do, blink once, and she blinked, and I said,
do you want your family to come and visit? I
(13:52):
said some other things, but I had her blinking. So
I ran out and got the nurse and I told
her that this woman is she can hear, she understands.
She literally was trapped in her body, and they contacted
the doctor and then they did some other tests with
her with the same blinking, and her family was able
(14:13):
to come back to see her, and they spent the
last days with her, and so was that was just
really the.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Power of And if you don't think you can make
light in the darkest of places like prison, that story
is metaphorically. I mean, you were able to reunite a
dying woman with her family when even the trained professionals
said she was catatonic. They did, and through just some
genuine care, compassion and love, you were able to communicate
(14:44):
with I was.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Able to communicate with her. They knew me for sitting
with the women when they were in hospice in the Foundays.
So many women had the opportunity to ask for a
special one of the special volunteers. That's who they want
with it. So I spent a lot of time in
hospice because a lot of them wanted me to sit
with them. I held their hands.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
So here's an interesting thing I read that you did.
I think when in Texas Special Olympics in Texas or Housville.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
It was in Texas.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
It's Texas. You wouldn't think of Special Olympics in federal prison.
But somehow I guess when you make plays and everything
else you did in prison, why not the Special Olympics.
But tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
There had never been a Special Olympics in prison before.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Well shocking, but you know, seeing the.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Women who were on the fringes who were not involved
with anything, I decided I want to help bring Special Olympics.
So we created I helped coordinate events for them. Even
one of the women, I asked her Anna, I said, Anna,
because she didn't have any legs, she had lost them
in a car accident before prison. I said, what do
(16:05):
you miss most about not having your legs? And she said,
Miss Alice, I miss dancing. So I said, well, you're
going to dance again. So for part of the entertainment
for the Special Olympics, to honor them as they were
getting their medals, Anna danced with me. I created a
(16:30):
dance to the song never Give Up, and I taught
her how to use her upper body, and as the
other women used their legs and the upper body, she
mimicked and she was in the circle. She was crying.
It was so beautiful. The Special Olympics National heard about
the Special Olympics that was being done in a prison,
(16:50):
so I had no idea that they were coming out.
So they came out to see our Special Olympics medals
being awarded and they also saw the entertainment. They also
saw Anna dance, and so they gave me an award
called the Special Olympics Coordinator.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Of the Year Award.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
I've never heard of anything like that. I think they
made it up, Bill, just to give me something.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
The plays that I would write, I would have to
do four performances. I would do one that was strictly
for those in the medical building. If you saw how
those women would dress up, they dressed up like they
were going out on the town. Creases on everything, hair done,
make upon. I'd put little flowers we'd have made on
(17:56):
their wheelchairs. I used them in different rolls so that
they could be a part of the rest of the community.
But my life in prison, I can honestly tell you,
Bill was not wasted. I was able to bring theater
I discovered. I would hear they've told my sister, who's
here with me today. Some of the women would tell
(18:19):
her that Alice we were when we saw her coming.
The first thing I say to them is the Lord
has need of you. That was my getting them. I'd
hear a voice in the in the dining room and
I said, I need that's the exact voice I need
for this role, and so the place became so huge
that the people on the outside started getting tickets to
(18:41):
come into the prison. I am not kidding.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
When I left, I just this last prison. I went
to Aliceville. I got Alabama, in Alabama.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Which is three and a half four hours southeast, So
you got home.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
I got closer home. I was there five years cards
well fifteen the other prison, you know, in some change
a few months over those years everywhere at the different places.
But I went back to Aliceville to be their keynote
speaker at a graduation in October.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
We're going to get to that.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
So you're in Aliceville.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yes, I'm in Aliceville, and you're.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Still doing You're trying to make value of your life
and affect positively this population that you're a part of. Right,
They really which is incarcerated women.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Incarcerated women. They really helped me though, Bill. It's something
about when you serve other people, when you try to
encourage them, you encourage yourself.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Man. We talk about it every single show, But you
get a thousand times more out of this kind of
work than you put into it too.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
You honestly do.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
But you're doing that and you're an Aliceville, but you
still you have no hope of getting out.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
No, I've been trying hope of.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Life in prison. You're gonna make the best of it.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
But I never stop fighting. I was still foul emotions
and getting denied. My family was still rock steady right
there beside me, fighting with me. My daughters went to
the White House to different convenience. My sisters were doing
proud visuals, candlelight visuals, bringing attention. So I started, and.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Nobody says you didn't deserve some jail time. Fortune I
never say nobody. But all they're saying.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Is it's too much life.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
And yet in twenty one years, seven months and ten
days you released. Yes, how did that happen?
Speaker 2 (20:39):
I started speaking at different colleges.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
From prison, which is crazy.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
It's crazy. They skyped me into Yale University to speak
to the law students and.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
You're speaking about prison reform.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
I'm speaking about clemency. I'm putting my face out here
and telling my story.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
It's interesting that the prisons would have even allow you
to do that.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
They did it, It wasn't. In fact, they would clear
the room and they would tell the other prisoners be
quiet because miss Johnson is speaking at this place, and
of course.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
The prisoner knew who you were, so they would actually
be quiet for you.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Oh they did. They. I had a lot of children,
because women at female prisons you don't really have gangs.
You have families. And I had a bunch of kids.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
All right, So now you're from prison talking about clemency,
prison reform, truth and sentencing.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
All of this, Students lost students that got you. The conspiracy, yeah,
all that that ugly word.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Yeah, And so you're talking.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
I'm talking about this, but the prison said, miss Johnson,
you will let you do these things as long as
you don't speak negatively about the prison. Well, of course
I'm not going to do that, because, like Joseph, everything
that was done was placed in my hand because it
would be excellent. Even the staff things that they're having events,
(22:02):
get Miss Johnson to help with some ideals. I'd end
up getting putting the whole thing together. And so I
was no trouble. I was never been in trouble in prison.
I was very trustworthy. The things that I did were
putting plays on. None of that was ever for sale
on the compound. I was squeaky clean, as they say,
(22:23):
a model prisoner. I'm taking all these classes even though
I have a life sentence. I'm leading the pack getting
people to sign up for classes. I'm taking them electrical.
I'm afraid of fire, and I take electrical.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
I said something I've always wondered, Do prison guards know
what you did? Do they have your rap sheet? So
even prison guards know.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
They wanted me to go home, That's my question. They
did the prison guards when I came out, they were
so happy, they were so happy.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Prison the guards themselves knew.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
You today they didn't And every time they see someone
get clemency, get free, they would be so sad and
it's gonna be your time or either miss Appas say,
got to see who you are. You have no business
here and people. I think that gave people a hope too,
because when they found out, the women who had short
sentences found out that I had a life sentence, it
(23:15):
was like, she's either crazy or.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
This lady's crazy. But anyway, you're speaking at college.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I'm speaking at colleges. I spoke of a YouTube and
Google event on criminal justice, and someone heard me speak.
He said. He walked in late but when he walked in,
he sees me up on this big screen. He hears
my voice, and he said, we have got to get
her to do a video op ed. Do you think
that's possible. I had never done that before, but I
(23:44):
did the video op ed. It went viral. I didn't
even know what the word viral meant. I thought I
had introduced the virus into the Internet.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
But the other thing is do you have access to
that in the prison?
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Yeah, we had. We had gotten video visitation, okay, and
so that's what I would be in there doing it
at a time that people weren't there.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
I got it. So this thing goes viral. It goes viral,
and somebody whose name we.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Heard, somebody whose name that many people know, saw it
to second Day and she saw it and she tweeted out,
this is so unfair. She retweeted it, and it went
from being viral to Kim Kardashian made it go superviral,
over ten million views, and she contacted her attorney to
(24:33):
find me to ask me if I wanted to get
out of jail, wanted her to hire her to get
me out of jail. I saidt me think about it, yes,
And so you know, the rest is kind of history.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Kim, Well, hold it. There's a white Kim Kardashian cannot
get you out of it.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
That's what I'm getting ready to tell you now, that
history part. Kim contacted Ivanka Trump, who showed my case
to jet and this is the first time that anyone
has peeled back the layer and actually read what I did.
And they went to work. They called themselves Team Alice.
(25:09):
Kim hired new lawyers. She brought in new lawyers to
put different set of eyes on it. She brought in
a local attorney here in Memphis, Mike Show, to see
what he could do through the courts. And the other
three were to fight to help prepare clemency paperwork and
fight for that. So for seven months they kept trying
(25:29):
to get an audience with President Trump. On my birthday,
they foundly Gadt and Kim and Sean Holly went to
the White House and met with the President. And seven
days later I was running across that road free.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
That day that that you have your prayers answered, and you, honestly,
most people would have thought never happened, and you get
out of prison. What was that like for you? Would
it feel like.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Well, the day that I got the news that I
was getting clemency, it was Hamburger.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Day, Hamburger.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
It was a Wednesday, and that's the only time that
we got hamburger.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
So I was also a hamburger a treat.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Oh yes, it was a treat to get a hamburger.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
What was the other food?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
You don't want to know?
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Okay, okay, mystery me.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Hamburger, Hamburger and chicken Day. We're things that I look
forward to. But I just wanted to feel normal, and
the women were so excited because my face is all
on the news, said it might happen today. And as
soon as I took that bike bill, they called my
name to return back to the unit. And when I
got the news, it was Kim Kardashian who told me
(26:50):
she thought I knew that I was going home. All
the women were screaming because I was screaming, And an
hour and a half later, I heard my name over
the tercom Alice Marie Johnson report to R and D.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
What's R and D?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
It's released it it's where you get released from. I've
forgotten what the das it's released. Everyone knows that R
and D is where you are real.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
So the whole jail knew you're gone.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
They know they knew, so they were screaming. They had
locked the whole compound down. I didn't know it that
all these reporters were out there from all over the country.
They had satellites, so they didn't want they had locked
everyone down for me to walk across the compound. So
when I started walking down the stairs, they started stomping. First,
(27:37):
it was three building. It how sixteen hundred women told them,
they're all stomping. They're stomping. And as I start going
down the stairs, they could see me when I cause
I was on the top. As I'm exiting my building,
women in every window had their cups beating the window,
and the stomping got louder and louder and louder. It
(27:59):
really and truly sounded like an earthquake. It felt like
the ground was shaking and they were being and it's
almost like it with one chorus. They were screaming and crying,
Miss Alice, please don't forget about us. And when I
took my hands and put it over my heart and
made the motion that I was ripping my heart out
(28:20):
and throwing it to them, they went crazy. I'm telling you, Bill,
I think the ground was moving. And as I walked
out the door, the officers headed to R and D
were lined up in two different lines on either side
of the sidewalk, and they stood attention for me. You're kidding,
I I'm not kidding.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
What an honor that both inmates and guards alike celebrated
your release.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
They did. And as we passed through the lower security facility,
which was a camp, the same scene. All of the
women had left out of the camp because it was
a minimum out. They weren't locked up. They were all
out there with the guards. They were waving once again,
guards standing as I'm passing by, and the women were screaming,
(29:12):
saying I love you, miss Alice. Don't forget about us.
Even one of the ladies who came has come home now.
I didn't know what happened, but she fainted.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
She was so overcome, And you made good on your word.
You hadn't forgot about it.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
I have not fighting every day, for fighting every day for.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Do you pinch yourself?
Speaker 2 (29:33):
I do still. I'm gonna tell you, Bill, the thing
that really lets me know that I'm really free, it's
when I wake up in the morning. I do this
every morning. I don't just jump up unless the phone
is ringed on some crisis is going on. I just
lay in my bed and look at the ceiling. I
(29:55):
do this every single morning. I look at the ceiling
because along looking in a bunk bed over my head,
and that kind of centers me that I really am free.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
We'll be right back after twenty one years, seven months
and ten days in prison that you might should have
been in prison for two years for maybe do you
(30:35):
ever dream or have flashbacks that you're still there?
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
That's trauma, it is.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
There are certain things that I didn't realize how badly
I could be triggered, because when I came out, I
immediately started fighting for the freedom of others. Sometimes when
I read others cases to really get into the meet
of how I'm going to fight for them, that would
(31:02):
trigger me into a nightmare. Something that gave me one
of the worst nightmares though, was on October the seventh.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Of what year this year? Okay, the war?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
When I saw the captives. I went to bed and
I was.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Sweet, mean Israel and you saw the the Hamaska is
catching the Israel.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Yes, when I saw this woman they had captured, and
I was shaking. I went to sleep that night and
I was that woman and I woke up. That was
the first time I have not just had a regular nightmare,
but had a crying, such a crying nightmare. I was
so broken. I woke myself up sobbing from seeing that.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
There's a reason, I asked, I have to believe that
that's largely universe among people who spent an extended period
of time in jail.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
It has it. There's no way that you can. It
is trauma to spend that time in prison and to
think that you just come out and you can you know,
some people say, don't look back. I have not only
looked back, I've gone back.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
And how can you How can I get the I
get the perspective of don't look back, your life's ahead
of you whatever. But that's almost in the same vein
of if you're broken of the hood and you want
something off of your life, just pull yourself up by
your bootstraps. Which that sounds good, sounds good, but that
ain't the way it works.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
It's not. Because we're hereing and we have memory, you can't.
I can't just erase my memory. But for me, Bill,
I actually did find purpose in prison. I actually did
find forgiveness others and forgiveness for myself too, having gone
(33:05):
there and been away from my children.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
So when we first started talking, I said, repeated, actually,
something you told me before we went live, which is
your story is phenomenal. And everybody who's listened every day
we've talked about right now, not only is it a
lesson of redemption, it's a lesson of forgiveness, self forgiveness, determination,
(33:33):
being steadfast. It's a lesson of egos and family and addiction, sorrow,
loss of a child. It's just, you know, your life
is a lesson of just so much. But when I
(33:53):
asked you to put it in an elevator, bitch, you said,
and I'll repeat now, you want to humanize those who
are current society doesn't often necessarily humanize. And the reason
I asked you do you have flashbacks of the trauma
of incarceration. Everything else is because we talk about recidivism
(34:16):
and why And you know, the same PTSD that affects
marines and folks in our army when they come back
from war and they have a problem reacclimating back to
a non military society. That PTSD of that and a
(34:39):
former incarcerated returning citizen. The two PTSDs are different, for sure,
and the circumstances under which those people receive that trauma
is different. I'm not likening someone who served our country
in the military to a prisoner in that regard, but
the level of PTSD can be the same. It can
be and re entry and getting rid of that trauma,
(35:06):
even though you owed a data society, once that debt
society is paid. Where's society are supposed to be forgiving?
We're society are supposed to say, Okay, you did your job,
you did your time, But how does that person reacclimate
and how can they reacclimate when they are not in fact.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Humanost That's true. That's why I believe that I've been
given this honor of this huge platform because of the
way that I came home, the people who was involved
when I came home, but also the work that I've
done since I came home. I made a promise to
(35:47):
the women when I left that I would never forget
about them. I would never stop fighting for them. That
fight includes fighting for their children too, to stay out
of not to go to prison, And so I've really
lived up to that. I've been honored all over the world.
Honored at the United Nations as one of four women's
(36:08):
rights defenders, the only one from North America on International
Women's Day. I've been honored by Ebony magazine as one
of the one hundred most Powerful Blacks of America. I've
spoken on the Essence Power stage. I've spoken in other stages.
I went to Tokyo not long ago and someone, one
(36:30):
of the Dignitary's wives, recognized me and invited me to
come back and help them lunch. Criminal Justice Reform for
women the first one. So my voice has reached many.
My fight has been sincere There's no way that I
could go come out of that and just go and
(36:52):
just live life and have a good time and know
that there are people, women and men who are depending
upon me to be out here reminding people that there
are people just like me, that I'm not unique. There
are other people too who deserve a second chance. We
are a country that extends we want grace. We are
(37:16):
a country of second chances, a country that believes in redemption,
but somehow bill when it comes to prisoners, that same
grace is not extended. Instead of saying this person by
their name. They'll say that's a bank robber, and then
(37:38):
they dropped their heads in shame. Or that was that
former drug dealer. I saw some kids, some young men,
when I first got on what they call kan air.
This young man looked in my eyes. I was on
my way to prison, and he didn't even look as
though he was old enough to shave. He would shockle
(37:59):
because we had wig shackles, rich shackles, ankle shackles. Some
had on black boxes also, and our eyes caught for
just one moment. I wish I knew that could find
that young man, because it was that look in his
eyes and that just tear that rolled. He couldn't stop it,
just looking at me. I don't know who I reminded
(38:21):
him of. And then he just shook his head and
he kept shuffling on back to the back of the
plane as we were being transported. I never forgot his
face and the look in his eyes, and I thought
that was some kid. I don't know what he did,
but somewhere someone dropped him and then pick him up.
(38:43):
He fell through somebody's crack.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
He probably never heard any applause.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
She probably never heard it any applause. And I have
thought about him over the years, over and over, and
sometimes Bill, when I'm so tired, I can put images
back in my head that keeps driving me because I've
been given the gift of freedom.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Talk to me about the importance of the First Step Act.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
The First Step Act was actually the first, the most
significant criminal justice reform in thirty years, and bipartisan.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
By the way, look what our country did. They got
bipartisan at least one thing.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Yeah. And the reason they called me the face of
it because my release. When people saw me, when the
president saw me, it changed hearts because I was not
the stereotypical.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
And ironically enough, this President Trump were talking about. Yes,
and a very divided, democratically controlled Congress that we're talking about,
they came together.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
To overwhelmingly passed it. And even when President Trump was
endorsing it, he said, I asked for sentencing reform because
I don't want there to be another Alice Johnson. And
for that, over thirty thousand people have come home early.
(40:06):
And contrary to what is being said, they are not
the reason for the crime problem.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
They're not, really, they are not.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
So let me give you these statistics. Please do of
crime that has taking place in America. Those who came
out on the First Step Act account for point zero
one four three percent, not even a half a point
point zero one four percent of the people who are
(40:37):
incarcerated are going to one day come home because they're
going to be finished with their sentences. Would you rather
them come out through the First Step Act? That make
sure that they have gone through re entry programs, they're
prepared to re enter society. They don't just open the
door and say go home on the First Step Act.
(40:57):
They have to be carefully vetted to make sure that
they don't pose a safety risk in the community, to
make sure that they have the skills necessary to get
a job. They connect them with others out there. They
do a lot of things for the people coming home
on the First Step Act. So, for those who are
crying to repeal the First Step at it is idiocracy,
(41:18):
It is insane.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
It is duplicit as stupidity. It is for anyone, and
it's I know somewhere there's power and money behind those decisions,
because it's always got vower money.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
It's got to be.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
But I couldn't agree with you more. It is stupid
because if you're let out under the First Step Act,
you were probably going to be cleaner than folks that
had ever served any time. You do it right.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Their recentivism rate is less than a fourth of those
who are coming home anyway, and many of those are
technical violations that send them back to prison. They would
want everyone to go through what the people have to
go through who come out on the First Step Act.
So I I'm really champion championing their causes in the
(42:10):
process of telling the stories success stories of people who've
came out and made good of their second chance, because
somehow we have got to come back the narrative that
we need to go back to a punitive and not
a restorative type of model, because that is what we
need in this country right now. We are not the
(42:31):
worst country in the world, but our criminal justice issues
sure to the rest of the world, says that we
are the most evil counture in the world to incocerate
twenty five percent of the whole world. I am not
a hopeless person, me neither. I still believe. I still
believe in this nation.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
We can't fix though what we don't understand.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
We can't. But you know it starts with us.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
You mean normal folks. Folks, we'll be right back. Tell
me about TAG.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
TAG is an organization that I formed in twenty twenty
when KOBD hit because I was working on clemings. Yes,
and I had to be able to find the people.
It's called taking action for good. And I was able
to help so many people get their freedom because they
found me. I didn't have to go out and find them.
(43:36):
And then once I started seeing success, the first three
people who I helped gain their freedom with three of
my good friends in prison who didn't even know I
was working to help them gain their freedom. Wow, And
I started getting all of these petitions. No they have
not you know, we don't allow them to.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
What do you do? Do not allow them to?
Speaker 2 (43:58):
The ones who have come home, they become mentors for
the ones who are just coming home, so they have contact,
they have someone that they can ask what do I
do in this situation? That absolutely, but just even more
so than that, they were so vetted and we were
so connected with their families. And even now I've met
(44:22):
with different governors. I met with one governor and I
spoke talk to him about Jerryatric clemency for those who've
aged out of criminality who posed no risks, and he
let them go on his way out the door. And
I've been able to meet It's something when you meet
with someone, you look them in their eyes and you
remind them, remind them because some have had a bad
(44:45):
experience and they forget that we live in an imperfect world.
It's so easy to say, this one over here came
out in the First Ship Act. Let me hold this
up as a reason you don't need to do it.
Or this one over here reoffended. Let me hold this up.
So easy to become jaded.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Yeah, that's one in.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Not many, but it's easy to become jaded.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
I want to give you an opportunity to speak to
the devil's advocate that I'm going to give you right now. Okay,
crime is out of control in many of our cities,
and in Memphis it's up, and I mean it's up.
It's up New York, it's up, Chicago, it's up. Crime
is up. I mean the fact is, crime is up,
(45:27):
and the criminals are getting younger and younger, and frankly,
it's a little scary. It's getting more and more violent
at a lot of places. And we see stories all
the time of smashing grabs, and in San Francisco, thirty
people breaking out the door of Macy's and running in
and grabbing stuff and leaving, and jewelers getting broken in
the middle of the day and they're smashing a grabbing
(45:49):
and taking jewelry. And you know, at some point, a
law abiding, tax paying trying to do it right, raise
your children, do the right thing. Citizens world surrounded by
all of us, gets scared. And when they're scared, they
default to the easy thing, which is Bill mooregells, lock
(46:11):
them up and keep them there forever, because you can't
do anything well. Quote these people you want to speak to.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
That to paint everyone with this broad brush is so
wrong And just like the failed I'm gonna repeat that again,
the failed war on drugs, that is not the answer.
That is not the answer with the smash and grabs.
(46:46):
Is you've got to get in. We've got to not
be afraid. We've got to take the lead us grown folks.
We've got to take the lead. And it starts with
one community at a time. So you see, we're looking
at this as a whole and we think we can't
do anything.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
It's a problem so huge, it's so.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
Big, fear will paralyze you from making that first step
of just Okay, I'm gonna work in my neighborhood. I'm
gonna start with my neighborhood. I'm not gonna try to
solve the problems of every city in America. I'm gonna
start with my neighborhood. And let's us gather these kids up.
(47:28):
Let's us start doing something. Let's us start showing them
a better way. Let us get in their heads, and
let's find out what's driving them to do this. If
you can break up the kids and not just let
them go and say glad, it's not my kid, it
is your kid, because it's your neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
And it will be your problem, and.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
It will be your problem. We I'm gonna repeat what
you what you saying for what ordinary people can do.
I know the power of the ordinary person. We're not
trying to be heroes, we're not trying to be famous.
We're just trying to make whatever difference we can make.
And it really it has to be us saying, yes,
(48:11):
I'm tired, I'm scared, but that's fear. It's going to
drive me to be a part of what's going to
be the solution for Memphis.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
And clearly, if we're six percent of the world's population
and have twenty five percent of the total prison population
of the world and our crime is doubling, what we're
doing now ain't working.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
It's not worth it.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
So just like the laws I talked about that keep
families broke up, just like the truth and sentencing stuff
that is scary, Just like the mandatory drug laws. Well intentioned,
but they ain't working. So let's try something else.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
And there are answers, but each community has a different answer.
Someone who's listening tonight is somebody's answer and they don't
even realize it.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
That's beautiful one. I'm so inspired by you. What are
you doing now? What are you doing today? What are
you doing this week? What's on the agenda? What's next? Oh?
Speaker 2 (49:09):
My agenda. I have a big family, A lot of
them are coming in for Christmas. Yep, we're gonna have
Christmas Dinner together. Then we're gonna have two days later,
we're gonna have a little Christmas swore. Ray for grown folks.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
You gotta be over.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
Thirty to come.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
There ain't nothing wrong with that. Can anybody in your
family cook like your mama?
Speaker 2 (49:27):
I cook pretty good.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
Now, really, what you're cooking? Are you cooking for Christmas?
Speaker 2 (49:31):
I'm cooking turkey. I may make breads, I make desserts.
I love to bake. So I'm a good old biscuit maker.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
So one of them days they gonna come over to
my house and they gonna have some salmon crow kiss
and biscuits and some smothered potatoes and pork chops smothered
and gravy.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
My wife, Yeah, make some of the best fried pork chops. Oh,
I love it, Bravy. I can need a mess of
out until I want to die. That's so good, you.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
Know, Bill, I really I know you asked me a
little bit, but I just would like to ask the
listeners if they like to support some of the work
that I do.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Wow, I'm going next.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
But support us at Taking actionfo good dot org.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
If someone wants to get involved with you, how do
they reach you?
Speaker 2 (50:18):
They can reach me through I tech website. Just shoot
me a note. I can put them to work.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
If someone out there has someone that's been in prison
far too long for something that they got it not
that they didn't earn the charge, but the sentencing is
too long and they're languishing in prison for something that
they have served their time for. Can they reach out
to you and find out how to absolutely.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
Can taking actionfo good dot org. They can email tell
us about the case. Someone will answer them and I'll
get some details for them. But we really do need
some support right now because we are scaling up because
my next frontier, in addition to that, is going to
(51:09):
be I'm coming for the children to help them. I
want to be part of the answer right here in Memphis,
righting Olive Branch. I want to be someone's answer.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
The power of an army of normal people, from the
daughter of a sharecropper to someone who's been in front
of the United Nations and governors and Kim Kardashian and
the Trumps and was the center of probably the most
(51:42):
effective bipartisan legislation we've had. We've figured out how to
muster in the last eight years. Alice Johnson, you are amazing.
You're redempt of your inspirational and I just cannot thank
you for your time.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
Thank you, Coach Bill. I didn't expect to have this honor,
to be right here with mister undefeated himself. For Goshlcolm, Look,
I'm telling you. I'm telling you I'm a little starstruck.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
Dope be starstrucks, Yes, a little bit. Thanks for thanks
for being with us, and Merry Christmas and Happiness Christmas
to you too. Thank you, and thank you for joining
us this week. If Alicebrae Johnson or another guest has
(52:31):
inspired you in general, or better yet, to take action
by donating, to taking action for good, by serving prisoners,
by fighting for criminal justice reform, or something else entirely,
please let me know. I'd love to hear about it.
You can write me anytime at Bill at normalfolks dot us,
(52:52):
and I'm telling you I will respond and keep emailing
us all the story ideas. It's been unbelievably helpful and
satisfying to tell these stories that come organically from you
the army. And if you enjoyed this episode, share it
with friends that are on social, subscribe to the podcast,
rate and review it, become a premium member at normalfolks
(53:16):
dot us. All of these things that will help us
grow an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'll
see you next week.
Hey, everybody, it's filled Courtney with an army of normal folks.
And now we continue with part two of our conversation
with Alice Marie Johnson, right after these brief messages from
our generous sponsors. You know, the daughter of a woman
(00:33):
who grew up a sharecropper and probably the granddaughter of slaves,
if I'm doing the your mother was probably the granddaughter
of actual slaves, right right, who somehow found the good
in all people. I guess that DNA that filtered down
(00:53):
to her daughter doesn't surprise me that you would skip
in prison. She would find some light in the darkest places.
And so what you do in prison?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I started writing plays and writing plays, writing plays. That's
hilarious because I've always loved to write. Yeah, And before
I went to prison, I did a few little short
things at church, nothing very long, but I would hear people.
I just started writing because that was the way that
(01:26):
I would deal with stuff. And I wrote. I started
writing little skits and putting on shows in prison. But
the actual first thing that I did, because they put
me in BT's vocational technical. Because this woman is unusual,
she knows. I taught typing, I taught computers.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
You taught other inmates.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Other inmates.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Okay, so not everybody that you're around is in for
life in twenty five. Some got three four five a year,
So you start teaching.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
To go to get out. My role was to prepare
them for re entry, so I helped them redo theirs.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
The prison give you this.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
They gave me that role. I worked in vocational technical
and it's something how once people realize that you can
do things, they'll give you more to do.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
And experience.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah, so they realized that once I saw one person
struggling with their resume, and I wrote them a fire resume,
and then I got the newspaper and said, these are
the jobs that you should apply for. They said I don't.
I say, yes, you do, and so they started using
me more and more. But then I noticed that the
(02:47):
women who had long sentences like myself couldn't take the classes,
and so.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
They were like, don't waste the time on them, because
so is that why?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
That was exactly why they said.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
They're not them a little hope? That was my.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Question is how do you tell a woman not to hope?
How do you tell a person not to prepare for
a future. So the warden there she really liked me.
I went to her ward Yeah, the warden, Oh, the warden,
the warden, the warden, because she had seen things I
was doing in prison. I was really trying, trying, and
(03:21):
so I wrote it up as a complaint. I found
a complaint about that. She calls me to her office
and I explained why she looked at me. She said, no, Alice,
she said, missus Johnson. She said, you know, miss Johnson.
I thought about what you said. You're right, I said,
you know, warden, her name was warden. Rees. If you
(03:44):
allow the women to take these classes who have long sentences,
a lot of them are getting in trouble because they
don't have anything to look forward to in prison. They
were getting getting in trouble in prison because they're they
are shone, not allowed opportunities. So for someone who's already
(04:05):
broken and you're breaking them more, making them feel worthless.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Is actually in a prison in prison.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
In a prison in prison. So it changed things on
that compound.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
It really did, because the long, the long sentenced women,
regardless of what their crime was and what they did,
if you gave them something to do and to feel
effective and purposeful, they quit acting out as much as
prison because they had something to look forward to.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Absolutely, and so from speaks to humanity. It really does.
When you can look at someone and say you have value,
you have work. And even the place that I put on,
many of the women had never heard applause in their life.
What mean they have?
Speaker 1 (04:52):
They have never been applause, They've.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Never been applauded. No one has ever given them applause.
So to do their part good, to sing, to have
their artwork on display. Because I didn't do mediocre stuff.
I would do pageantry. It would look as if they
were going to a theater on the outside. And when
I went to the next prison.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
It hold it. How long were you at that prison?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Only a year? And I shook it. I turned it
upside down.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
That's phenomenal. We interviewed. Now. I can't help it, but
you're reminded me of so many things. Dub Ellinger is
a woman in Detroit who serves food and has homes
for trafficked and pimped women in Detroit. And the way
she finds them is she literally goes out into the
(05:45):
streets and gives them sandwiches and food and clothes. And
if only for fifteen or thirty minutes, those women opens up,
have someone to talk to, and they eventually open up.
But the thing she says that she makes she does
every time before she leaves, and she looks everyone was
on in my eyes, and she said, you were loved
(06:07):
by God and your life has value, and when you
want to get out of this life, there are people
that care enough to help you find that value. And
then they leave. And she said, eventually they come to
her and they get out of that life because they've
just never been told by anybody that they have value.
(06:28):
And you say, it's the same thing. These people have
never been applauded, they've never been graduated, they've never felt
good about themselves, they've never been recognized. The power of that.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
The power of even encouragement of showing love to someone
else who don't even love themselves. When I left there
after being there a little over a year, I was
at Carswell, the next prison for fifteen years. And where
was that in Texas? Fort Worth? When I got there,
(07:01):
it was so depressing. So many women were in wheelchairs,
some were blind, some had no legs, some of them
were mental. In the hospital part. So this was FCI
Federal Correctional Institute medical It was a medical center, but
they had built high rises because the female population was
(07:22):
exploding and less than at that time it was five years,
but in ten years it had increased by eight hundred
percent women and they didn't have enough prisons, so they
had to build high rises at other prisons to bring
women in. And we were quadruple, quadruple buk four of
(07:44):
us in this little tight space that you can't even
stand side by side.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
That's going on in our society, that our prison population
has increased by eight hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
This should tell you something. In the United States, we
account for less than six percent of the world population,
but we incarcerate twenty five percent of the world population.
It's our laws, to be honest with you. A lot
of it is driven by the private prison industry, their stock.
(08:15):
When things fail. In two thousand and eight when everything
was crashing, you know what went up, prison stock. It's
like trading humanity as.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
A tougher laws. Of course, of course they have.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
They are a very strong group because in their contracts
when they get a federal contract a private prison facility,
in the contract, they're guaranteed ninety percent of the bids
would be filled. And if it drops to eighty percent,
then the government has to pay them what they're losing.
(08:54):
So it's like, are they going to lobby against themselves.
It's not right, but it's what. It's one of the things.
And there are so many laws on the books now.
The reciptivism rate, even when people get out, is so
easy to make have a technical violation and be locked
back up again. But my life at Carswell, at that
(09:19):
medical center totally changed because there's a whole building with
unhealthy women. There's a floor of women who are dying.
There's a hospice unit. I ended up taking hospice training
when I discovered that unit, and I would many times
they would allow them when they got to the end
(09:40):
of their days, at the very end, they would give
them the opportunity to ask for an inmate to sit
with them. Because I was a volunteer, i got trained.
I never thought i'd do something like that. So I
was so busy because so many of them would ask
for me to sit with them.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
And so when you shot, while they died.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I sat with them. I'd read to them, I sing
to them why because I was given I was sold
that I was going to die. But not just because
of that. To be alone and to die alone with
no family around you, to me, was about the worst thing.
(10:23):
They didn't come there to die, they got sick or
they came in sick, and that was the only medical
facility for women in the country, so if you were dying,
you had had to come to carswell, so.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
You got transferred there because the population was the prison
population was exploding and it had empty beds.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
It had empty beds, so.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
You went there to keep the numbers up.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Absolutely, a lot of women were still and what they
called the pipeline. They were in county jails and so
they could and be moved to a federal facility because
it wasn't there weren't enough, so they had to build
more so they could get the women out of the
(11:10):
jails and get them into a prison cell on federal property.
So really for me, sitting with women, it was an
honor for me to be able to help someone transition.
But it also became when my father passed away, I
had to stop because it was too emotional for me
to be with them because my father died suddenly while
(11:31):
I was gone.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
You said, you never thought you'd find yourself working in hospice,
but you did it because you just never wanted to
see anybody pass alone, right, which is so kind really,
the depth of your kindness, I think again, that's some
of your mama's DNA coming out in you. But there's
(11:55):
this one particular story of a Catholic woman that was
in hospice I think in Texas, right right, share that
with us well.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Previously, I would always work in the chapel, volunteering. I'd
find my way back to the chapel, so I knew
about the songs that they would sing. And every time
I would have a new patient, I'd call her my
patient in hospice. I'd find out, what is your faith?
(12:25):
Because I want to read to them, I want to
do something for them. I want to honor their faith. Yes,
And so this particular woman, she was in a komatose appearance.
Her mouth was opened, her eyes were staring blankly, and
when I arrived there to sit with her, they told
me that she couldn't hear and that she didn't understand,
(12:48):
that she wasn't comprehending anything. She was in a coma,
basically a komatose state, and her family were no longer
visiting her because they couldn't stand to see her looking
like that. So I found out she was Catholic, so
I just started singing to her. I was singing a
lot to the women, or i'd read from their passages.
I'd keep them, you know, I'd just communicate with them anyway.
(13:12):
And so while I'm singing ten pea dad, which is Lord,
have mercy, I'm singing, Oh Lord, have mercy, Oh Lord
have mercy. As I'm singing Oh Lord, have mercy on me,
a tear started running down her face, and I walked
(13:32):
over to her and I started singing again. I stopped
for a moment, and I said, can you hear me?
I said, do you understand what I'm saying? I said,
if you do, blink once, and she blinked, and I said,
do you want your family to come and visit? I
(13:52):
said some other things, but I had her blinking. So
I ran out and got the nurse and I told
her that this woman is she can hear, she understands.
She literally was trapped in her body, and they contacted
the doctor and then they did some other tests with
her with the same blinking, and her family was able
(14:13):
to come back to see her, and they spent the
last days with her, and so was that was just
really the.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Power of And if you don't think you can make
light in the darkest of places like prison, that story
is metaphorically. I mean, you were able to reunite a
dying woman with her family when even the trained professionals
said she was catatonic. They did, and through just some
genuine care, compassion and love, you were able to communicate
(14:44):
with I was.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Able to communicate with her. They knew me for sitting
with the women when they were in hospice in the Foundays.
So many women had the opportunity to ask for a
special one of the special volunteers. That's who they want
with it. So I spent a lot of time in
hospice because a lot of them wanted me to sit
with them. I held their hands.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
So here's an interesting thing I read that you did.
I think when in Texas Special Olympics in Texas or Housville.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
It was in Texas.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
It's Texas. You wouldn't think of Special Olympics in federal prison.
But somehow I guess when you make plays and everything
else you did in prison, why not the Special Olympics.
But tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
There had never been a Special Olympics in prison before.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Well shocking, but you know, seeing the.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Women who were on the fringes who were not involved
with anything, I decided I want to help bring Special Olympics.
So we created I helped coordinate events for them. Even
one of the women, I asked her Anna, I said, Anna,
because she didn't have any legs, she had lost them
in a car accident before prison. I said, what do
(16:05):
you miss most about not having your legs? And she said,
Miss Alice, I miss dancing. So I said, well, you're
going to dance again. So for part of the entertainment
for the Special Olympics, to honor them as they were
getting their medals, Anna danced with me. I created a
(16:30):
dance to the song never Give Up, and I taught
her how to use her upper body, and as the
other women used their legs and the upper body, she
mimicked and she was in the circle. She was crying.
It was so beautiful. The Special Olympics National heard about
the Special Olympics that was being done in a prison,
(16:50):
so I had no idea that they were coming out.
So they came out to see our Special Olympics medals
being awarded and they also saw the entertainment. They also
saw Anna dance, and so they gave me an award
called the Special Olympics Coordinator.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Of the Year Award.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
I've never heard of anything like that. I think they
made it up, Bill, just to give me something.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
The plays that I would write, I would have to
do four performances. I would do one that was strictly
for those in the medical building. If you saw how
those women would dress up, they dressed up like they
were going out on the town. Creases on everything, hair done,
make upon. I'd put little flowers we'd have made on
(17:56):
their wheelchairs. I used them in different rolls so that
they could be a part of the rest of the community.
But my life in prison, I can honestly tell you,
Bill was not wasted. I was able to bring theater
I discovered. I would hear they've told my sister, who's
here with me today. Some of the women would tell
(18:19):
her that Alice we were when we saw her coming.
The first thing I say to them is the Lord
has need of you. That was my getting them. I'd
hear a voice in the in the dining room and
I said, I need that's the exact voice I need
for this role, and so the place became so huge
that the people on the outside started getting tickets to
(18:41):
come into the prison. I am not kidding.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
When I left, I just this last prison. I went
to Aliceville. I got Alabama, in Alabama.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Which is three and a half four hours southeast, So
you got home.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
I got closer home. I was there five years cards
well fifteen the other prison, you know, in some change
a few months over those years everywhere at the different places.
But I went back to Aliceville to be their keynote
speaker at a graduation in October.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
We're going to get to that.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
So you're in Aliceville.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yes, I'm in Aliceville, and you're.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Still doing You're trying to make value of your life
and affect positively this population that you're a part of. Right,
They really which is incarcerated women.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Incarcerated women. They really helped me though, Bill. It's something
about when you serve other people, when you try to
encourage them, you encourage yourself.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Man. We talk about it every single show, But you
get a thousand times more out of this kind of
work than you put into it too.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
You honestly do.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
But you're doing that and you're an Aliceville, but you
still you have no hope of getting out.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
No, I've been trying hope of.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Life in prison. You're gonna make the best of it.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
But I never stop fighting. I was still foul emotions
and getting denied. My family was still rock steady right
there beside me, fighting with me. My daughters went to
the White House to different convenience. My sisters were doing
proud visuals, candlelight visuals, bringing attention. So I started, and.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Nobody says you didn't deserve some jail time. Fortune I
never say nobody. But all they're saying.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Is it's too much life.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
And yet in twenty one years, seven months and ten
days you released. Yes, how did that happen?
Speaker 2 (20:39):
I started speaking at different colleges.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
From prison, which is crazy.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
It's crazy. They skyped me into Yale University to speak
to the law students and.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
You're speaking about prison reform.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
I'm speaking about clemency. I'm putting my face out here
and telling my story.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
It's interesting that the prisons would have even allow you
to do that.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
They did it, It wasn't. In fact, they would clear
the room and they would tell the other prisoners be
quiet because miss Johnson is speaking at this place, and
of course.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
The prisoner knew who you were, so they would actually
be quiet for you.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Oh they did. They. I had a lot of children,
because women at female prisons you don't really have gangs.
You have families. And I had a bunch of kids.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
All right, So now you're from prison talking about clemency,
prison reform, truth and sentencing.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
All of this, Students lost students that got you. The conspiracy, yeah,
all that that ugly word.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Yeah, And so you're talking.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
I'm talking about this, but the prison said, miss Johnson,
you will let you do these things as long as
you don't speak negatively about the prison. Well, of course
I'm not going to do that, because, like Joseph, everything
that was done was placed in my hand because it
would be excellent. Even the staff things that they're having events,
(22:02):
get Miss Johnson to help with some ideals. I'd end
up getting putting the whole thing together. And so I
was no trouble. I was never been in trouble in prison.
I was very trustworthy. The things that I did were
putting plays on. None of that was ever for sale
on the compound. I was squeaky clean, as they say,
(22:23):
a model prisoner. I'm taking all these classes even though
I have a life sentence. I'm leading the pack getting
people to sign up for classes. I'm taking them electrical.
I'm afraid of fire, and I take electrical.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
I said something I've always wondered, Do prison guards know
what you did? Do they have your rap sheet? So
even prison guards know.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
They wanted me to go home, That's my question. They
did the prison guards when I came out, they were
so happy, they were so happy.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Prison the guards themselves knew.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
You today they didn't And every time they see someone
get clemency, get free, they would be so sad and
it's gonna be your time or either miss Appas say,
got to see who you are. You have no business
here and people. I think that gave people a hope too,
because when they found out, the women who had short
sentences found out that I had a life sentence, it
(23:15):
was like, she's either crazy or.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
This lady's crazy. But anyway, you're speaking at college.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I'm speaking at colleges. I spoke of a YouTube and
Google event on criminal justice, and someone heard me speak.
He said. He walked in late but when he walked in,
he sees me up on this big screen. He hears
my voice, and he said, we have got to get
her to do a video op ed. Do you think
that's possible. I had never done that before, but I
(23:44):
did the video op ed. It went viral. I didn't
even know what the word viral meant. I thought I
had introduced the virus into the Internet.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
But the other thing is do you have access to
that in the prison?
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Yeah, we had. We had gotten video visitation, okay, and
so that's what I would be in there doing it
at a time that people weren't there.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
I got it. So this thing goes viral. It goes viral,
and somebody whose name we.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Heard, somebody whose name that many people know, saw it
to second Day and she saw it and she tweeted out,
this is so unfair. She retweeted it, and it went
from being viral to Kim Kardashian made it go superviral,
over ten million views, and she contacted her attorney to
(24:33):
find me to ask me if I wanted to get
out of jail, wanted her to hire her to get
me out of jail. I saidt me think about it, yes,
And so you know, the rest is kind of history.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Kim, Well, hold it. There's a white Kim Kardashian cannot
get you out of it.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
That's what I'm getting ready to tell you now, that
history part. Kim contacted Ivanka Trump, who showed my case
to jet and this is the first time that anyone
has peeled back the layer and actually read what I did.
And they went to work. They called themselves Team Alice.
(25:09):
Kim hired new lawyers. She brought in new lawyers to
put different set of eyes on it. She brought in
a local attorney here in Memphis, Mike Show, to see
what he could do through the courts. And the other
three were to fight to help prepare clemency paperwork and
fight for that. So for seven months they kept trying
(25:29):
to get an audience with President Trump. On my birthday,
they foundly Gadt and Kim and Sean Holly went to
the White House and met with the President. And seven
days later I was running across that road free.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
That day that that you have your prayers answered, and you, honestly,
most people would have thought never happened, and you get
out of prison. What was that like for you? Would
it feel like.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Well, the day that I got the news that I
was getting clemency, it was Hamburger.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Day, Hamburger.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
It was a Wednesday, and that's the only time that
we got hamburger.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
So I was also a hamburger a treat.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Oh yes, it was a treat to get a hamburger.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
What was the other food?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
You don't want to know?
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Okay, okay, mystery me.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Hamburger, Hamburger and chicken Day. We're things that I look
forward to. But I just wanted to feel normal, and
the women were so excited because my face is all
on the news, said it might happen today. And as
soon as I took that bike bill, they called my
name to return back to the unit. And when I
got the news, it was Kim Kardashian who told me
(26:50):
she thought I knew that I was going home. All
the women were screaming because I was screaming, And an
hour and a half later, I heard my name over
the tercom Alice Marie Johnson report to R and D.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
What's R and D?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
It's released it it's where you get released from. I've
forgotten what the das it's released. Everyone knows that R
and D is where you are real.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
So the whole jail knew you're gone.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
They know they knew, so they were screaming. They had
locked the whole compound down. I didn't know it that
all these reporters were out there from all over the country.
They had satellites, so they didn't want they had locked
everyone down for me to walk across the compound. So
when I started walking down the stairs, they started stomping. First,
(27:37):
it was three building. It how sixteen hundred women told them,
they're all stomping. They're stomping. And as I start going
down the stairs, they could see me when I cause
I was on the top. As I'm exiting my building,
women in every window had their cups beating the window,
and the stomping got louder and louder and louder. It
(27:59):
really and truly sounded like an earthquake. It felt like
the ground was shaking and they were being and it's
almost like it with one chorus. They were screaming and crying,
Miss Alice, please don't forget about us. And when I
took my hands and put it over my heart and
made the motion that I was ripping my heart out
(28:20):
and throwing it to them, they went crazy. I'm telling you, Bill,
I think the ground was moving. And as I walked
out the door, the officers headed to R and D
were lined up in two different lines on either side
of the sidewalk, and they stood attention for me. You're kidding,
I I'm not kidding.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
What an honor that both inmates and guards alike celebrated
your release.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
They did. And as we passed through the lower security facility,
which was a camp, the same scene. All of the
women had left out of the camp because it was
a minimum out. They weren't locked up. They were all
out there with the guards. They were waving once again,
guards standing as I'm passing by, and the women were screaming,
(29:12):
saying I love you, miss Alice. Don't forget about us.
Even one of the ladies who came has come home now.
I didn't know what happened, but she fainted.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
She was so overcome, And you made good on your word.
You hadn't forgot about it.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
I have not fighting every day, for fighting every day for.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Do you pinch yourself?
Speaker 2 (29:33):
I do still. I'm gonna tell you, Bill, the thing
that really lets me know that I'm really free, it's
when I wake up in the morning. I do this
every morning. I don't just jump up unless the phone
is ringed on some crisis is going on. I just
lay in my bed and look at the ceiling. I
(29:55):
do this every single morning. I look at the ceiling
because along looking in a bunk bed over my head,
and that kind of centers me that I really am free.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
We'll be right back after twenty one years, seven months
and ten days in prison that you might should have
been in prison for two years for maybe do you
(30:35):
ever dream or have flashbacks that you're still there?
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
That's trauma, it is.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
There are certain things that I didn't realize how badly
I could be triggered, because when I came out, I
immediately started fighting for the freedom of others. Sometimes when
I read others cases to really get into the meet
of how I'm going to fight for them, that would
(31:02):
trigger me into a nightmare. Something that gave me one
of the worst nightmares though, was on October the seventh.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Of what year this year? Okay, the war?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
When I saw the captives. I went to bed and
I was.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Sweet, mean Israel and you saw the the Hamaska is
catching the Israel.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Yes, when I saw this woman they had captured, and
I was shaking. I went to sleep that night and
I was that woman and I woke up. That was
the first time I have not just had a regular nightmare,
but had a crying, such a crying nightmare. I was
so broken. I woke myself up sobbing from seeing that.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
There's a reason, I asked, I have to believe that
that's largely universe among people who spent an extended period
of time in jail.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
It has it. There's no way that you can. It
is trauma to spend that time in prison and to
think that you just come out and you can you know,
some people say, don't look back. I have not only
looked back, I've gone back.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
And how can you How can I get the I
get the perspective of don't look back, your life's ahead
of you whatever. But that's almost in the same vein
of if you're broken of the hood and you want
something off of your life, just pull yourself up by
your bootstraps. Which that sounds good, sounds good, but that
ain't the way it works.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
It's not. Because we're hereing and we have memory, you can't.
I can't just erase my memory. But for me, Bill,
I actually did find purpose in prison. I actually did
find forgiveness others and forgiveness for myself too, having gone
(33:05):
there and been away from my children.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
So when we first started talking, I said, repeated, actually,
something you told me before we went live, which is
your story is phenomenal. And everybody who's listened every day
we've talked about right now, not only is it a
lesson of redemption, it's a lesson of forgiveness, self forgiveness, determination,
(33:33):
being steadfast. It's a lesson of egos and family and addiction, sorrow,
loss of a child. It's just, you know, your life
is a lesson of just so much. But when I
(33:53):
asked you to put it in an elevator, bitch, you said,
and I'll repeat now, you want to humanize those who
are current society doesn't often necessarily humanize. And the reason
I asked you do you have flashbacks of the trauma
of incarceration. Everything else is because we talk about recidivism
(34:16):
and why And you know, the same PTSD that affects
marines and folks in our army when they come back
from war and they have a problem reacclimating back to
a non military society. That PTSD of that and a
(34:39):
former incarcerated returning citizen. The two PTSDs are different, for sure,
and the circumstances under which those people receive that trauma
is different. I'm not likening someone who served our country
in the military to a prisoner in that regard, but
the level of PTSD can be the same. It can
be and re entry and getting rid of that trauma,
(35:06):
even though you owed a data society, once that debt
society is paid. Where's society are supposed to be forgiving?
We're society are supposed to say, Okay, you did your job,
you did your time, But how does that person reacclimate
and how can they reacclimate when they are not in fact.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Humanost That's true. That's why I believe that I've been
given this honor of this huge platform because of the
way that I came home, the people who was involved
when I came home, but also the work that I've
done since I came home. I made a promise to
(35:47):
the women when I left that I would never forget
about them. I would never stop fighting for them. That
fight includes fighting for their children too, to stay out
of not to go to prison, And so I've really
lived up to that. I've been honored all over the world.
Honored at the United Nations as one of four women's
(36:08):
rights defenders, the only one from North America on International
Women's Day. I've been honored by Ebony magazine as one
of the one hundred most Powerful Blacks of America. I've
spoken on the Essence Power stage. I've spoken in other stages.
I went to Tokyo not long ago and someone, one
(36:30):
of the Dignitary's wives, recognized me and invited me to
come back and help them lunch. Criminal Justice Reform for
women the first one. So my voice has reached many.
My fight has been sincere There's no way that I
could go come out of that and just go and
(36:52):
just live life and have a good time and know
that there are people, women and men who are depending
upon me to be out here reminding people that there
are people just like me, that I'm not unique. There
are other people too who deserve a second chance. We
are a country that extends we want grace. We are
(37:16):
a country of second chances, a country that believes in redemption,
but somehow bill when it comes to prisoners, that same
grace is not extended. Instead of saying this person by
their name. They'll say that's a bank robber, and then
(37:38):
they dropped their heads in shame. Or that was that
former drug dealer. I saw some kids, some young men,
when I first got on what they call kan air.
This young man looked in my eyes. I was on
my way to prison, and he didn't even look as
though he was old enough to shave. He would shockle
(37:59):
because we had wig shackles, rich shackles, ankle shackles. Some
had on black boxes also, and our eyes caught for
just one moment. I wish I knew that could find
that young man, because it was that look in his
eyes and that just tear that rolled. He couldn't stop it,
just looking at me. I don't know who I reminded
(38:21):
him of. And then he just shook his head and
he kept shuffling on back to the back of the
plane as we were being transported. I never forgot his
face and the look in his eyes, and I thought
that was some kid. I don't know what he did,
but somewhere someone dropped him and then pick him up.
(38:43):
He fell through somebody's crack.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
He probably never heard any applause.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
She probably never heard it any applause. And I have
thought about him over the years, over and over, and
sometimes Bill, when I'm so tired, I can put images
back in my head that keeps driving me because I've
been given the gift of freedom.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Talk to me about the importance of the First Step Act.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
The First Step Act was actually the first, the most
significant criminal justice reform in thirty years, and bipartisan.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
By the way, look what our country did. They got
bipartisan at least one thing.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Yeah. And the reason they called me the face of
it because my release. When people saw me, when the
president saw me, it changed hearts because I was not
the stereotypical.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
And ironically enough, this President Trump were talking about. Yes,
and a very divided, democratically controlled Congress that we're talking about,
they came together.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
To overwhelmingly passed it. And even when President Trump was
endorsing it, he said, I asked for sentencing reform because
I don't want there to be another Alice Johnson. And
for that, over thirty thousand people have come home early.
(40:06):
And contrary to what is being said, they are not
the reason for the crime problem.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
They're not, really, they are not.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
So let me give you these statistics. Please do of
crime that has taking place in America. Those who came
out on the First Step Act account for point zero
one four three percent, not even a half a point
point zero one four percent of the people who are
(40:37):
incarcerated are going to one day come home because they're
going to be finished with their sentences. Would you rather
them come out through the First Step Act? That make
sure that they have gone through re entry programs, they're
prepared to re enter society. They don't just open the
door and say go home on the First Step Act.
(40:57):
They have to be carefully vetted to make sure that
they don't pose a safety risk in the community, to
make sure that they have the skills necessary to get
a job. They connect them with others out there. They
do a lot of things for the people coming home
on the First Step Act. So, for those who are
crying to repeal the First Step at it is idiocracy,
(41:18):
It is insane.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
It is duplicit as stupidity. It is for anyone, and
it's I know somewhere there's power and money behind those decisions,
because it's always got vower money.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
It's got to be.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
But I couldn't agree with you more. It is stupid
because if you're let out under the First Step Act,
you were probably going to be cleaner than folks that
had ever served any time. You do it right.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Their recentivism rate is less than a fourth of those
who are coming home anyway, and many of those are
technical violations that send them back to prison. They would
want everyone to go through what the people have to
go through who come out on the First Step Act.
So I I'm really champion championing their causes in the
(42:10):
process of telling the stories success stories of people who've
came out and made good of their second chance, because
somehow we have got to come back the narrative that
we need to go back to a punitive and not
a restorative type of model, because that is what we
need in this country right now. We are not the
(42:31):
worst country in the world, but our criminal justice issues
sure to the rest of the world, says that we
are the most evil counture in the world to incocerate
twenty five percent of the whole world. I am not
a hopeless person, me neither. I still believe. I still
believe in this nation.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
We can't fix though what we don't understand.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
We can't. But you know it starts with us.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
You mean normal folks. Folks, we'll be right back. Tell
me about TAG.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
TAG is an organization that I formed in twenty twenty
when KOBD hit because I was working on clemings. Yes,
and I had to be able to find the people.
It's called taking action for good. And I was able
to help so many people get their freedom because they
found me. I didn't have to go out and find them.
(43:36):
And then once I started seeing success, the first three
people who I helped gain their freedom with three of
my good friends in prison who didn't even know I
was working to help them gain their freedom. Wow, And
I started getting all of these petitions. No they have
not you know, we don't allow them to.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
What do you do? Do not allow them to?
Speaker 2 (43:58):
The ones who have come home, they become mentors for
the ones who are just coming home, so they have contact,
they have someone that they can ask what do I
do in this situation? That absolutely, but just even more
so than that, they were so vetted and we were
so connected with their families. And even now I've met
(44:22):
with different governors. I met with one governor and I
spoke talk to him about Jerryatric clemency for those who've
aged out of criminality who posed no risks, and he
let them go on his way out the door. And
I've been able to meet It's something when you meet
with someone, you look them in their eyes and you
remind them, remind them because some have had a bad
(44:45):
experience and they forget that we live in an imperfect world.
It's so easy to say, this one over here came
out in the First Ship Act. Let me hold this
up as a reason you don't need to do it.
Or this one over here reoffended. Let me hold this up.
So easy to become jaded.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Yeah, that's one in.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Not many, but it's easy to become jaded.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
I want to give you an opportunity to speak to
the devil's advocate that I'm going to give you right now. Okay,
crime is out of control in many of our cities,
and in Memphis it's up, and I mean it's up.
It's up New York, it's up, Chicago, it's up. Crime
is up. I mean the fact is, crime is up,
(45:27):
and the criminals are getting younger and younger, and frankly,
it's a little scary. It's getting more and more violent
at a lot of places. And we see stories all
the time of smashing grabs, and in San Francisco, thirty
people breaking out the door of Macy's and running in
and grabbing stuff and leaving, and jewelers getting broken in
the middle of the day and they're smashing a grabbing
(45:49):
and taking jewelry. And you know, at some point, a
law abiding, tax paying trying to do it right, raise
your children, do the right thing. Citizens world surrounded by
all of us, gets scared. And when they're scared, they
default to the easy thing, which is Bill mooregells, lock
(46:11):
them up and keep them there forever, because you can't
do anything well. Quote these people you want to speak to.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
That to paint everyone with this broad brush is so
wrong And just like the failed I'm gonna repeat that again,
the failed war on drugs, that is not the answer.
That is not the answer with the smash and grabs.
(46:46):
Is you've got to get in. We've got to not
be afraid. We've got to take the lead us grown folks.
We've got to take the lead. And it starts with
one community at a time. So you see, we're looking
at this as a whole and we think we can't
do anything.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
It's a problem so huge, it's so.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
Big, fear will paralyze you from making that first step
of just Okay, I'm gonna work in my neighborhood. I'm
gonna start with my neighborhood. I'm not gonna try to
solve the problems of every city in America. I'm gonna
start with my neighborhood. And let's us gather these kids up.
(47:28):
Let's us start doing something. Let's us start showing them
a better way. Let us get in their heads, and
let's find out what's driving them to do this. If
you can break up the kids and not just let
them go and say glad, it's not my kid, it
is your kid, because it's your neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
And it will be your problem, and.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
It will be your problem. We I'm gonna repeat what
you what you saying for what ordinary people can do.
I know the power of the ordinary person. We're not
trying to be heroes, we're not trying to be famous.
We're just trying to make whatever difference we can make.
And it really it has to be us saying, yes,
(48:11):
I'm tired, I'm scared, but that's fear. It's going to
drive me to be a part of what's going to
be the solution for Memphis.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
And clearly, if we're six percent of the world's population
and have twenty five percent of the total prison population
of the world and our crime is doubling, what we're
doing now ain't working.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
It's not worth it.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
So just like the laws I talked about that keep
families broke up, just like the truth and sentencing stuff
that is scary, Just like the mandatory drug laws. Well intentioned,
but they ain't working. So let's try something else.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
And there are answers, but each community has a different answer.
Someone who's listening tonight is somebody's answer and they don't
even realize it.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
That's beautiful one. I'm so inspired by you. What are
you doing now? What are you doing today? What are
you doing this week? What's on the agenda? What's next? Oh?
Speaker 2 (49:09):
My agenda. I have a big family, A lot of
them are coming in for Christmas. Yep, we're gonna have
Christmas Dinner together. Then we're gonna have two days later,
we're gonna have a little Christmas swore. Ray for grown folks.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
You gotta be over.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
Thirty to come.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
There ain't nothing wrong with that. Can anybody in your
family cook like your mama?
Speaker 2 (49:27):
I cook pretty good.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
Now, really, what you're cooking? Are you cooking for Christmas?
Speaker 2 (49:31):
I'm cooking turkey. I may make breads, I make desserts.
I love to bake. So I'm a good old biscuit maker.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
So one of them days they gonna come over to
my house and they gonna have some salmon crow kiss
and biscuits and some smothered potatoes and pork chops smothered
and gravy.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
My wife, Yeah, make some of the best fried pork chops. Oh,
I love it, Bravy. I can need a mess of
out until I want to die. That's so good, you.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
Know, Bill, I really I know you asked me a
little bit, but I just would like to ask the
listeners if they like to support some of the work
that I do.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Wow, I'm going next.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
But support us at Taking actionfo good dot org.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
If someone wants to get involved with you, how do
they reach you?
Speaker 2 (50:18):
They can reach me through I tech website. Just shoot
me a note. I can put them to work.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
If someone out there has someone that's been in prison
far too long for something that they got it not
that they didn't earn the charge, but the sentencing is
too long and they're languishing in prison for something that
they have served their time for. Can they reach out
to you and find out how to absolutely.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
Can taking actionfo good dot org. They can email tell
us about the case. Someone will answer them and I'll
get some details for them. But we really do need
some support right now because we are scaling up because
my next frontier, in addition to that, is going to
(51:09):
be I'm coming for the children to help them. I
want to be part of the answer right here in Memphis,
righting Olive Branch. I want to be someone's answer.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
The power of an army of normal people, from the
daughter of a sharecropper to someone who's been in front
of the United Nations and governors and Kim Kardashian and
the Trumps and was the center of probably the most
(51:42):
effective bipartisan legislation we've had. We've figured out how to
muster in the last eight years. Alice Johnson, you are amazing.
You're redempt of your inspirational and I just cannot thank
you for your time.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
Thank you, Coach Bill. I didn't expect to have this honor,
to be right here with mister undefeated himself. For Goshlcolm, Look,
I'm telling you. I'm telling you I'm a little starstruck.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
Dope be starstrucks, Yes, a little bit. Thanks for thanks
for being with us, and Merry Christmas and Happiness Christmas
to you too. Thank you, and thank you for joining
us this week. If Alicebrae Johnson or another guest has
(52:31):
inspired you in general, or better yet, to take action
by donating, to taking action for good, by serving prisoners,
by fighting for criminal justice reform, or something else entirely,
please let me know. I'd love to hear about it.
You can write me anytime at Bill at normalfolks dot us,
(52:52):
and I'm telling you I will respond and keep emailing
us all the story ideas. It's been unbelievably helpful and
satisfying to tell these stories that come organically from you
the army. And if you enjoyed this episode, share it
with friends that are on social, subscribe to the podcast,
rate and review it, become a premium member at normalfolks
(53:16):
dot us. All of these things that will help us
grow an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'll
see you next week.
Host
Bill Courtney
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