March 5, 2024 • 42 mins
Veteran Richard McKinney hated Muslims and after returning from Iraq, he couldn't stand seeing "the enemy" in his community of Muncie, Indiana. He visited their mosque to justify his planned bombing of it, but their love for him completely transformed his heart. Ultimately, Richard converted to Islam and even served as the mosque’s President.
Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premium
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
So when I actually went into the mosque that one
day the bomb was done. I just needed time, a
time and date, which I'd already decided was going to
be during Ramadan, which is the holy month, because it's
kind of like Catholics and Christmas Mass, right, everybody's there.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
So there was the biggest opportunity for the greatest about
a carnage and damage on that day.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
It was going to be a Friday afternoon during the
month of Ramadan, because I knew they would all be
there and you were going to plant this thing at
their place and hello of them. I already had a
place for it. Everything. It was just a matter of
just waiting.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
You realize that that would make you no different than
the men who flew the planes into the World Trade Zone.
I know that.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Now.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm built Courtney,
normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father, I'm an entrepreneur,
and I've been a football coach an Inner City Memphis.
And the last part it unintentionally led to an oscar
for the film about our team. It's called Undefeated. Guys.
I believe our country's problems will never be solved by
(01:17):
a bunch of fancy people in nice suits talking big
words that nobody understands on CNN and Fox, but rather
an army of normal folks us, just you and me deciding, Hey,
I can help. That's what Richard McKinney, the voice we
just heard, has done. Richard served in the Marine Corps
and Army, and his goal was to die as a
(01:41):
hero for killing Muslims. When he came back home to Muncie, Indiana,
he couldn't stand seeing them in his community, which led
to his plan to bomb their mosque. And then their
love stood in the way and it changed him forever.
(02:02):
I cannot wait for you to meet Richard. Right after
these brief messages from our general sponsors, Richard McKinney, otherwise
(02:23):
known as Mac, Welcome to Memphis.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Bro, Thank you, glad to be here. Glad to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Drove down from Mondsey, Indiana, and the first thing you
saw when you cross the river was a big pyramid
with bass Pro on it. It blew your mind.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah, only in Tennessee, right.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Joe us drive off the road going what is that?
I was like, man, what is this? Man?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Tennessee got a pyramid and the bass Pro shops into pyramid.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, oh my gosh, that's right. Well Memphis, Memphis, Egypt
on the river. Hey there you got it. I got
it now. Yeah, that's the reason. So and then we
bring you to this awesome place and cross down. This
used to be Seers. So well yeah, back you remember
back in the days when the catalogs here's catalogs. Sears,
(03:09):
based in Chicago, had four or five major headquarter hubs,
and Memphis was one of them. This entire thing was
the Sears headquarter for the Southeast, for all the catalogs.
And anyway, when Sears had troubles, this place was empty.
There was nobody here. This was fifteen years ago. This
was a ghost town and the neighborhood around it was
a ghost town. And they rehab this building. There's a
(03:31):
school in it, there's businesses in it, there's this awesome
Memphis Listening Lab in it, and it's revitalized this whole
part of the city. So it's kind of got a
cool vibe when you walk in. I know, you probably
didn't have any idea what you're walking into.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Not a clue. They even asked people, I say, hey,
where's this Memphis Listening Center? Right, Yeah, listening lab. Yeah,
that's it's.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
In the Crosstown Concourse right here at the Old Seers Building,
Memphis and cool cool vibing here, So welcome to us.
For those listening, Mac's story is gonna sound like a
country music song at the very beginning. Then it's gonna
sound like something you've seen on the movies in the middle,
(04:17):
and then the end is going to blow your mind.
I Mac, your man who's lived many lives, and it's
lucky probably to have one, considering some of your service.
But first we're gonna get into all that. Where are
you from? How'd you grow up? Well?
Speaker 1 (04:35):
I grew up in Cincinnati, Cincinnat, Ohio. Was an inner
city kid, went to a grade school in the mid
seventies and Cincinnati was still going through desegregation. But because
I grew up in the system, I was part of
the desegregation. I was the only white kid on my
school bus.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Right.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
He's a socioeconomic thing. Right. That's where I lived, and
it was I liked it in a lot of ways,
but I'm glad I got out.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Were If that's the case with your mom and dad
at home? Uh, my mom and dad had been divorced.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
My whole life.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Got it.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
So did you grow up with your mom? My mom,
and my grandparents got it? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
And I would assume from what you're saying, probably pretty
blue collar, lower income.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Very blue collar. My grandfather couldn't even read and write.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Really. Yeah, And what about your mom? What you do?
Speaker 1 (05:34):
She was on disability I remember most of my life.
She had some serious issues with dependency and psychological disorders,
you know here and there, a lot of anxiety stuff.
She had a few jobs, mainly secretarial type stuff. That's
back in the age of typewriters and stuff, right right.
You just know it's not going to happen anymore. So
(05:57):
was your dad involved in your life much?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Actually was he actually owned a business. He was a
meat cutter by trade. He was in the Marine Corps
for four years, got out, went to trade school to
actually get certified as a meat cutter, and he owned
his own shop there in a place called New Richmond.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Ohio, right on the river. Siblings no only job, me too,
and my dad left when I was four. So I get,
I get the life. And so where you come from
is inner city, not much money at all. A mom
who sounded like she struggled a little not talking about
your momb but no, no, absolutely, a divorce, probably a
(06:35):
grandfather who was in your life, I.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Guess, yeah, but he was. He was a strange person.
Strange person to me. He was a strange person. He
comes from the hills, Kentucky, I get it.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yeah, And couldn't read it right. Couldn't read it right right.
So not exactly a life of privilege or shiny castles
on the hill, No, not at all. And so in
high school, what'd you get into?
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Well? Sports, you know, because my whole thing was I
was going to be a pro ball player. I didn't
even pick a sport yet. I played tomorrow. I played football,
went right from turning in my equipment after the football season,
the basketball conditioning, getting done with that, and going right
to baseball. And I mean I just played sports year
round and I was going to be a pro ball player.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
That was it.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Period. But about my junior year, this is right before
I ran away from home. My junior year, I had
come to the realization that, dude, listen, you're not that big.
Football's out.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
You can't play basketball.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Matter of fact, I showed up for my sophomore year
for basketball tryouts. Coach put his arm around my shoulders
and said, hey, let's go talk to the swim coach.
True story, true story. That's how bad a basketball I am.
I swam that year and then baseball. And the funny
thing about baseball is is I really was not that good.
(08:04):
I'm left handed, so they made me a relief pitcher
because there were no left handers. You know, well, we're
gonna make him a picture. He can't throw, but we're
gonna make him a picture. And at the high school level,
I had two pitches, a fastball that really was not
fast at all and a curveball that hung about eye
level for three days before it would drop. Yeah, but
I struck people out. It was amazing. It was. It
(08:25):
just was coaches would get opposing coaches would get so
frustrated with their players. Yeah, but you weren't going to
go play pro base I were not. I know, I
was not going to go play pro baseball. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
So what did you get into? Well, drugs, using, dealing
well both.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Eventually that's what ended my high school careers. I got
busted for selling drug dollars. Came to the school and
I have a feeling, I know, Zachly what I think
it was one of my competitors that probably probably you know,
I was selling two dollars joints man, you know, back
in the eighties, back in the early eighties.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
You know, and it's not.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
A big deal, but you know, and it you know,
So here I am. I got no high school education,
I don't know what to do, don't have any skills,
and I am not going to go play pro ball.
I couldn't even I don't even think i'd be allowed
to walk on a college campus. So I joined the
(09:24):
Marine Corps.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
And I read what you said when you joined the Marines,
it was an opportunity to do something to get away
from all the life. But also you felt like maybe
it'd earn you some respect.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yeah, absolutely, because I my dad had no respect for
me whatsoever. He just didn't. I mean, I was actually
living with him at this time when I was. I
moved in with him when I was in my early
teens because my mom couldn't handle me anymore.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
And you were loving the street life.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
It sounds oh, absolutely absolutely. I ran streets for yeah,
it was, and I went to school when I wanted to.
You know, I had a little more structure, well, actually
a lot more structure at my dad's but I couldn't
stand it. I had a problem with authority. So this
is where the best and funniest decision that I made
(10:18):
at that point in my life was to join the
Marine Corps. And I had a problem with authority. So yeah, look,
straighten that out. I just knew I had to get
away because I knew, you know, even at the young
of age and being so naive about the world, that
I was going to either end up in prison or
(10:39):
dead eventually. I mean, because I you know, like I
tell people now, there's no four oh one K plans
being the thug. Yeah, just didn't. So Marine Corps. Marine
Corps where you can be a thug and it's allowed.
So you serve for twenty of yours. I actually retired
(11:01):
from the Army. You were tired for you went Marines,
then Army. Yeah, I did a hard one first, all.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Right, And I know you served in Panama, two tours
in Somalia, Bosnia, Afghanistan, and Rock and you forgot Desert
Storm the first very first one. Bro. All right, well
take me through that.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Well, I mean, so I made that fantastic decision to
get away from all the negativity and go to be
part of something a lot bigger and a lot better
than what I ever imagined. And there was no more
good decisions after that for many years, because when I
went in, I wanted to be in the infantry. Because
(11:49):
you know, like one of the things that really shaped
my decision a lot was Rambo.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah, are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Okay, the original one.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yeah, the Pacific Northwest. Were just climbing around in the
mountains and.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
He's just so tough, and he' said but he learned
it all in the military. Now Rambo was in the Army.
I joined the Marine Corps. But I knew the Marine
Corps had like special special operations branches.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Right the little little wings of their.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Of their corps. And because my dad was a marine.
So again I'm still trying to get respect from my
dad by going through some of the similar things that
he went through, even though it was different. He was
in the sixties and I was in the eighties. But still,
you know, but I wanted infantry. I wanted I wanted action.
I wanted to fight, you know, because it's kind of
(12:41):
all I knew. I didn't want to join the military
and sit behind a desk. Hey, I don't even you know,
I couldn't even comprehend that. But I had to go
in open contract. There was no guarantee for me because
I went in with a drug waiver. Did you really Yeah,
because they they well they don't even have those anymore.
I went in with a drug waiver, admitting that I
(13:03):
smoked Marion one of three times.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Three times on Saturday before noon. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Uh but but uh so I I had to go
and open contract, which basically means is they put you
where they need you. And I was like, oh my gosh,
please please please, anything but a baker. That's an actual
(13:33):
job in the Marine Corps. A baker, oh man.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
That time to cook the doughnuts.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
I had packed my bags and just left. No not
doing that. But uh, I looked out got in combat arms,
and uh I loved it. I found a family, even
though I which, where'd you do boot camp? Paras? I
joined in Cincinnati, So that was yeah, east of the Mississippi.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
And where's your first deployment? I guess station or deployment,
I don't know the right words.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
After I was done with all my training, I ended
up in Okanawa, Japan for a year, which was the
beginning to the end of my first marriage. I was eighteen,
I already got married lovely, yeah exactly, and a hard
lesson learned. First letter I got when I was in Okan,
(14:26):
now with the first letter I had received was from
my wife, tell me she's pregnant.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
I'm not going.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Home, and they actually allowed me to when the baby
was born, you know, I told her, I said, okay,
you need to notify the Red Cross when you go
into the labor you know. And then that way didn't
get a hold of me. Why I was coming back
from Korea because we did an operation in South Korea,
and when I got back, they allowed me to make
(14:57):
a phone calls like jail. Yeah, I mean, well I
could have made a phone call, but I'd have had
to pay for it. This is when I could go
up to like the battalion headquarters and make a phone
call out right. They said, oh, well he'll get up
a phone call. Man, really, really, kid man, seriously. The
the the hard thing about that is is that you know, yes,
(15:20):
we are divorced, and there was good reason but to
be honest, I had a business being married, of course
that age. But it was the fact that.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
The Marine Corps always came first, always, So what did
you see your first action?
Speaker 1 (15:36):
The first time I got shot at was actually in
the Philippines, the Philippines.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
I didn't think anything was going on in the eighties
and the Philippines.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Corzona Kino took over power from the Marcos regime. Yeah,
and this is what started my whole.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Was this some shoes.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
I'm just kidding, you know, but I know she had
so many pairs. She could have liked gave a whole
village like her, you know, shoes, right, and and but
there was a communist uprising when she took over power.
They had always been there, but they were kind of stifled,
and then they decided to start rising up. So we
(16:16):
went there as advisors. I had no business being it.
My name got put on a list and it was
a mistake. I should have never been on this list,
but it's what started everything for me. And because I'm
was I twenty years old?
Speaker 2 (16:30):
What are you at this time? Right?
Speaker 1 (16:32):
And three lance corporal yep. I had no business going
to Who am I going to advise?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Right? Right? Right?
Speaker 1 (16:40):
I got put on this list, man, and I was off.
And then when I got there, you know, there was
there was because at that time, there was a lot
of you know, security, secrecy and all that stuff, and
so well, you're here, you get read in and make
the best of it. And I remember it was funny
because we were actually walking through with the Filipinos, going
(17:01):
through the jungles and doing patrols. Right, they were called
harassment patrols. I've never been to your house, I've never
been on your property. I'm gonna come there not knowing anything,
and I'm gonna harass you. You see, Yeah, exactly, you
see how that works? Yeah, and and and uh yeah,
(17:22):
I remember we and they didn't try to hurt anybody,
I don't think, because nobody got nobody got shot. But
they they made us hunker down. I remember I was twenty. Yeah,
I was twenty, And I remember I became one with
a tree and I think I pete a little. I'm
not gonna lie.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yeah. What about the adrenaline, It was like.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
It was like a person who smokes crack. It was
like the first hit.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
It's weird. I've had folks that I've talked to that
have served that have said it frightens you and it
excites you, and it's a weird adrenaline rush. That you
really can't understand until you've been there. But in some guys,
that lights a fire.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, I instantly become.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Add to the military, to the adrenaline, to the old,
the whole thing. And now a few messages from our
general sponsors. But first, I really hope you'll consider becoming
a premium member at Normalfolks dot us. Y'all, the army
(18:42):
has twenty eight premium members right now, and we're setting
an initial goal of getting one hundred premium members. I
hope you'll be open to joining us. Why because by
becoming one for ten bucks a month or one thousand
dollars a year, you can get access to cool benefits
like bonus episodes, a yearly group call, and even a
one on one call with me. You're so lucky. But frankly, guys,
(19:08):
premium memberships help us to grow the army that our
country desperately needs right now. So I hope you'll think
about it. We'll be right back. Where were you when
(19:35):
you discovered a mass grave? Oh that was in Bosnia,
so tell me about that.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
So my team we were actually there to Our first
priority was to capture the war criminals, Mosevich Karate and
some of those other guys right to control them, put them.
We had a base. It was an Eagle base. It
was in Tusa Tusla b And we had a base
(20:02):
within a base that was a secure base. It basically
a jail. What we would do is we would capture them,
hold on to them until somebody from the Hague came
and picked them up and took them for trial. That
was our first priority. We never did get any of
those guys. We actually ended up catching a couple of
al Qaeda guys. Yeah, because during the Civil War, you
(20:26):
have to even though it wasn't religious war, you have
to understand the Bosnians were primarily Muslim and the Serbians
were primarily Christian Orthodox.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
It wasn't a holy war, no, but it was very
much a Christian versus Muslim thing.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Well the medium made it that way, okay, yeah, yeah,
Well that's what I've read. Yeah, yeah, and and and
that's the and that's the problem. It really wasn't it
was it was land, and it was it was who
controlled what which really you.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Know, but it was violent and nastiest. It was very nasty.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
It was very nice. It brought back memories from World
War Two, especially with captured Bosnians. Man, it was like
concentration camps. Our second or my second priority was pr
because I don't know, people tell me that, I don't
know how to identify it. But people tell me I
have a lot of charisma, right, so yeah, which was
(21:24):
good for me on the weekend when it comes to
picking up women. That was right. That was that was always.
You know, you can cut any of this, that's cool,
but you know, I mean, yeah, I used to, you know,
I used it a lot. I but but they set
(21:44):
me up for these radio interviews and I had an
interpreter who was a Bosnian Muslim, not a practicing Muslim.
She was Muslim by birth.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
That was it. Cultural?
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yeah, cultural she was. She was very much a young
European girl in.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Her twenties born to some Muslim parents.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Exactly exactly. But I hated her. But you never know
that if you saw us together. I hated her. I
hated because she was Muslim. I saw it as a thing,
right And I'll get into I'll explain that a little
bit in a second. But we come up with this
thing because you know, I'll talk and I'll just keep going. Well,
(22:27):
she has to interpret, so we would end up putting
our hands on the table. We'd hold hands, and she
squeezed my hand when she wanted me to shut up
so she could yeah, and then squeeze it again when
it was okay for me to talk again. It was,
it was. It was a great method. But of course,
you know, I got teased about it a lot. I
was like, man, that girl don't want none to do.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
So about that. It was a funny story. But it's not.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
No, it was not a funny story. It was nothing
funny about it. Let's touch on that mass grade first.
So the powers that be, whoever it was, had discovered
a mass grave two hundred and fifty odd remains.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
I worry that mass grave is not a great enough illustration.
And I've wondered this. I guess they take a traco
or a baco and dig a massive hole pretty much,
and they execute people and some are clothed, some or
not right. And that's what was in the grave.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
You could see where some of them there was clothes
to the skeletons.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
But I mean, had they uncovered it, had it been
covered and they uncovered it?
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yeah, I don't know how they Yeah, I don't know
anything about how it got discovered. I have not a
clue to stink. No, not really really that where we
was that kind of stunk anyway, because it's a lot
of rule area.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
But did you look, man, You take ninety nine percent
of the population, You walk them up to the edge
of a hole with two hundred and fifty bodies in
it that have been some mutilated, probably some tortured all
or most executed, some close, some not. Some in certain
(24:14):
levels of decay. Most people are going to be throwing up,
hiding their eyes, freaking out. How to affect you?
Speaker 1 (24:23):
I didn't care. There was this international like CSI team
that was there right collecting data, and they were it
was pretty neat to watch them work, you know, stuff
that they were doing.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Were they trying to identify the bodies?
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and they're.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
All Muslim, they're all from the Muslim side of this.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah yeah, I think it's safe to say they were. Yeah.
Because the actual village itself was a Serbian populated village,
got it. See the Serbs actually some Serbs actually live
in Bosi and they have like their own villages, right,
And the I guess she was in charge or whatever,
really nice looking African British woman and I'm there, I
(25:04):
got my guys. I already put a perimeter around nobody
in because we didn't want any of the serbs coming
in to mess with what was going on. We didn't
want them to mess with any of the workers that
were doing what they were doing. So I set all
my guys out, made a perimeter, and I stayed in
the center with the hum vy, the radio, and you know,
I had all my as we call it, battle rattle
(25:25):
and my M four right up here, and you know,
and then she comes up to me and I just
lit a cigarette and she goes, it's so hard to
understand how people can do this to each other. And
I took a dragging my cigarette and it blew out
the smoke and I says, not really. She goes, what
(25:49):
do you mean they're all Muslim. That's what I felt,
which comes into play. Everybody knew me, knew I didn't
like Muslims. Did not let it affect my job. And
my interpreter, Sarah. I took care of her because she
took care of us. She's very good. She took care
(26:09):
of us. She kept us out of trouble, which was
a full time job, just with me, and I was
not going to allow anything to happen to her. Why
she's with me. We were in the child hall talking,
me and some other NCOs. We were talking and they
(26:31):
confronted me with my hatred. They said, man, you gotta
quit hating on these people so much. And I said, why,
they're all evil man? And he said, well, what about Sarah.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Man?
Speaker 1 (26:45):
You like Sarah?
Speaker 2 (26:46):
I said, I do like Sarah, but.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
She still got to go, And if it comes time
to do it, I'll try to be there to do
it myself. I'll just put a nine to the back
of her head. She won't feel nothing, but she's got
to go. Why because she's Muslim? Why that was my
only reason? She's Muslim?
Speaker 2 (27:07):
That was it? But was it that all you'd seen
is videos of people's head getting chopped off and all
this other stuff, and you equated any Muslim to that.
Oh yeah, yeah, so you were programmed.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
But I took it to another level because you know,
a lot of people try to point their finger at
the military. They they put this hate in me, right,
They did not put this hate in me. The military
is too busy. They ain't got time to create haters. Okay, Well, yes,
but that's what they're supposed to do.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
But honestly, a civilized society may not want to admit it,
But the inconvenient truth is we're all safer because guys
like you were on the wall.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
It is a quandary, it really is.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
It is a quandary. But I'll be honest with you.
I sleep better at night knowing it well.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
And that's true, and that's why we are afforded things
in this country that we have.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
But we also don't want those people who we hold
in high esteem and we reserve the highest honors of
honor for like the Medal of Honor and things like that,
to also hate. No, And so it's this weird line
that listen, man, I know the rest of your story
(28:29):
and the rest of our listeners need to stick with us,
and they'll get to the redemption and a little bit.
But it is uncomfortable for me to know that you
had an en four strap to you and we're serving
our country and had no empathy for two hundred and
fifty victims of murder who was willing to put a
(28:53):
nine to his own interpreter's head simply because she was Muslim.
That is hard to hear.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
It used to be really hard to talk about. Now
I feel a need to.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
We'll get to that. So was that that was before
Afghanistan and Iraq? Yeah, so you're just getting tuned up, bro.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
So we went on an operation April fifteenth, two thousand
and four.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Okay, so Bosnia not eleven, not eleven hadn't happened yet?
Oh yeah, it had happened. I'm sorry on the two
thousand and one. So did not eleven lead you to
hate the Muslim community or is it already there?
Speaker 1 (29:58):
I don't know, And that's one question I have been
asked since I think first time I ever appeared in
front of somebody. What caused you to hate so much?
Honestly don't know. I honestly don't know. It wasn't nine
to eleven, you know.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
For you, it really wasn't. It wasn't. It was for
a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Well yeah, yeah. And it also ended up being a
huge population booster for Islam because especially throughout America and
the Western world, because this happened and people are like,
who are these Muslims? I need to figure this thing out.
I need to learn about that, And they did, and
they ended up converting.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Which we'll get to that. But okay, so Bosnia nine eleven,
two thousand and four. Now you are how long in
the military at this point?
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Oh gosh, I had a two year break between the
Marine Corney Army, which I'm so lucky I'm still alive
for that.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
But I mean, you're a veteran. Yeah, and are you
a sergeant at this time? Probably?
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Oh yeah, yeah, all right, sergeant in Bosnian up until
the time I became a staff sergeant, every rank I
had I had at.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Least twice, meaning you got busted down three times. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
the charisma. Yeah, so you leave Bosnia, you've got this
unbelievable hatred for Muslims. I also believe you must have
(31:34):
had a really deep seated love for your country. It
was everything.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
I tell people that, for lack of a better example,
the flag was my cross. I was a die hard nationalist,
not a white nationalist ian. That's the thing, because I
didn't grow up with color racism. Well I did, my
grandfather big time race. But I always thought, and I
(32:02):
would always, even as a young kid, would say, why
is he acting like this? You know, he wanted to
spank me one time for playing with as he called
I hate to say this word, I'll say it once
colored kids in the neighborhood. We lived in a predominantly
black neighborhood. Who else am I playing with?
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Right?
Speaker 1 (32:22):
But you know, kids, they don't see that stuff anyway.
And I always grew up remembering that man. Gosh man,
I love him, a Paul Man, but he was ignorant.
I mean, he just was about so much, man, and
I didn't. I didn't care what color you were. I
never did. I just care where you were from. And
(32:48):
if you're not from here, I want to know why
you're here and when are you leaving.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
You were that devout like you said, yeah, no what
you're cross? It was, and you were ready to die
for it.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
I used to at night when I would be on deployment.
A lot of times, I would just set and I
would it was almost like a prayer, almost to it.
I wouldn't really say a prayer, but it was almost
like a prayer. It was like a prayer type mindset.
I take the flag off my shoulder and just sit
there and stare at it. Sit down and stare at it, like, man.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
This is everything, devoutly committed.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Two Corps country the mission your men. Yeah, okay, so
now you end up in Afghanistan with that mentality that
baked into you your hate for Muslims. Nine to Eleven's happened.
I mean you're probably locked and loaded.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah, I And I was happy because now I can
actually rid the world of these Muslims, whereas in Bosny
I was more or less almost protecting him, really right,
and I like that never set good with me when
I made that statement to that, to that, uh British lady,
Yeah we got we got relieved in place.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
You were no longer the voice of the army. Right. No.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
They sent my team back and my team didn't get
any kind of but I took a lot of heat.
I had to go talk to the Sardin major and
Sartin majors, like you know, it was it was funny
in a way because you know, I go into his
office that you know, Sartin became report his order start Major.
He just went off. But my cursing, I mean every
(34:45):
other word, well, military language is a little different too,
a you know, I tell people, I said, man, I said,
I had to learn how to talk when I come
to civilian world, because you know, if you don't if
you don't put the F word at least once in
a sentence, is an incomplete sentence. And this guy was
just one off man. He said and shut that door,
slam the door. Sit down, Mac, Yeah, I want some coffee. Man, Hey,
(35:13):
you can't be saying that stuff.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
It's something. When I was reading this, I wondered, you
weren't the lone ranger, bro. There were other people that
felt that way, right, I.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Don't know of any, really, I mean, it would be
very naive of me to say no, but I yeah,
I didn't know of any.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
So it wasn't openly discussed.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Oh no, no, you know, because.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
There's also Muslims serving in the United States military, right, Well,
I mean I didn't. I didn't know of any.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Not that there weren't any, but I didn't know of any.
And so it was it was kind of you know,
I had created my own little world, and I was
very respected in the middle even no, even when I
would get busted, i'd still be respected, you know, because
what I got busted for usually was was overall was
(36:09):
a good thing. It just went against the rules.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
It happens. Right.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
We had a saying, is I'd rather be I'd rather
be judged by twelve and carried by six.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Got it.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
So, But of course that didn't really apply to me anyway,
because really, to be honest with you, I was looking
for a way to die. My goal, my destiny was
to die in combat. Because when you come back to
this country and a flag drap coffin, you were forever
known as a hero. It don't matter, it don't matter
what you did, how you did it. You're a hero, period, done, period.
(36:49):
And that's what really fueled my hatred when I when
I had gotten injured and as I even say today,
they kicked me out.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Well let's get to that. So you're an Afghanistan or
a rock I don't know which one.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
AFGHANISTANTUS. So I went from Bosnia, which is actually another
story too. We went on an operation there April fifteenth,
two thousand and four, and it was an actual mission.
We got intel that we were going to get Melosovich.
By the way, his code name was Elvis, no kidding, yeah,
because yeah, yeah yeah. And I was the third guy
(37:24):
through the door, really and he wasn't there but a
priest and the priest's son was there. Well, they got
up from the table pointing pistols at us. Well that
didn't work out. Well, we gotta do what we gotta do, right,
So operation's over and one one funny tidbit. This got
(37:49):
me in a lot of trouble. Oh my gosh. But
of course, you know, Smoke's cleared everything. Okay, look for Intel,
you know, is there any hard drives, any laptop, any
paperwork we're laying around. We scoop it all up, take
it back and let somebody who cares look at it, right,
And I had to do it. I got on the
(38:11):
radio and said, Elvis has left the building.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Yep, did you do that? I really did that.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Yet. No, it wasn't a whoops. I knew what I
was doing, but I had to say it. I had
to say it, man, I had to say it anyway.
So we went back. The Serbian government press charges, press
murder charges against the team I was with and myself. Right,
So American government, their infinite wisdom, said hey, you guys
(38:42):
are going to Afghanistan. So we went right to Afghanistan
and they could tell the service are not even here.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Right.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
I was really bothers me because I would like to
go back to Bosnia. But I don't know if that's
if that's still.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Hanging out there.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Yeah, I don't know if that's still hanging out there, man,
So you know, but uh so, yeah, So we went
to Afghanistan and that's when I got into well, actually
I went I came back to the stage for some
training and I will mention this. I won't talk about it,
but I will mention this. And I got trained to
uh do interrogations.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Got it. That's the same time that the Cuban jail
was starting to get going, right, the Cuban.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Jam Oh yeah, okay, I'm thinking jam.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah. Yeah, it's a jail in Cube. I couldn't remember
the name of the band, yeah, Timable Bay, so you know.
And it really was just enhanced interrogation techniques.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
Yeah, we had to do all that. Yeah, we learned
that and and and what a lot of people don't
understand is that in.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Order to.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
You were taught how to do it because it was
done to you.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Oh that's how you learned.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Yeah, which is not unlike like you know, your police department, Right,
upper spray, you get sprayed, right, stun devices, you get stunned.
That's what that's. You know, in waterboarding, you.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Got waterboarding, you got waterboard. How bad is it?
Speaker 1 (40:10):
It's different, it's different. It's well, no, I mean, I
mean it's it's horrible. It is literally horrible. But the mindset.
See here, here's the thing. I'm in school. You know
they're not gonna kill you. Yeah, this is going to end.
You know. When I went through a Seer school, which
is about you know, survival and evasion and all that stuff.
(40:34):
The thing is that you will get captured during that.
You cannot evade. These people know what they're doing. You're
gonna get captured right.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
In the school. In the school, and then you're gonna
learn how to deal with being captured. I showed back.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
I showed up after a week, back to my command
with a black eye and a bust of lip.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Wow, it was a right of passage.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
It was an honorable thing. But even though I went
through all that, I never told anybody anything because why
I knew it was going to end. This is not
every day for me, This is not my life. I
know this is going to end. So bear down, take
the hits and go back and hold your head.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Eye.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
No big deal.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
But now you're trained. But now I'm trained, quote trained. Yeah,
so and I guess in your mind, waterboarding a Muslim
you didn't care, Oh.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Gosh, no, no, matter of fact, I remember several times
when there was others that would pull me off of people,
and it's it's really sad that I even have a
memory of myself like this, but I enjoyed what I
(41:55):
did and it hurts to day.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
And that concludes Part one of my conversation with Mac,
and I promise that you do not want to miss
part two. It's now available to listen to as his
hatred gets transformed by love. Together, guys, we can change
the country, but it starts with you. I'll see in
part two.
So when I actually went into the mosque that one
day the bomb was done. I just needed time, a
time and date, which I'd already decided was going to
be during Ramadan, which is the holy month, because it's
kind of like Catholics and Christmas Mass, right, everybody's there.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
So there was the biggest opportunity for the greatest about
a carnage and damage on that day.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
It was going to be a Friday afternoon during the
month of Ramadan, because I knew they would all be
there and you were going to plant this thing at
their place and hello of them. I already had a
place for it. Everything. It was just a matter of
just waiting.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
You realize that that would make you no different than
the men who flew the planes into the World Trade Zone.
I know that.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Now.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm built Courtney,
normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father, I'm an entrepreneur,
and I've been a football coach an Inner City Memphis.
And the last part it unintentionally led to an oscar
for the film about our team. It's called Undefeated. Guys.
I believe our country's problems will never be solved by
(01:17):
a bunch of fancy people in nice suits talking big
words that nobody understands on CNN and Fox, but rather
an army of normal folks us, just you and me deciding, Hey,
I can help. That's what Richard McKinney, the voice we
just heard, has done. Richard served in the Marine Corps
and Army, and his goal was to die as a
(01:41):
hero for killing Muslims. When he came back home to Muncie, Indiana,
he couldn't stand seeing them in his community, which led
to his plan to bomb their mosque. And then their
love stood in the way and it changed him forever.
(02:02):
I cannot wait for you to meet Richard. Right after
these brief messages from our general sponsors, Richard McKinney, otherwise
(02:23):
known as Mac, Welcome to Memphis.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Bro, Thank you, glad to be here. Glad to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Drove down from Mondsey, Indiana, and the first thing you
saw when you cross the river was a big pyramid
with bass Pro on it. It blew your mind.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah, only in Tennessee, right.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Joe us drive off the road going what is that?
I was like, man, what is this? Man?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Tennessee got a pyramid and the bass Pro shops into pyramid.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, oh my gosh, that's right. Well Memphis, Memphis, Egypt
on the river. Hey there you got it. I got
it now. Yeah, that's the reason. So and then we
bring you to this awesome place and cross down. This
used to be Seers. So well yeah, back you remember
back in the days when the catalogs here's catalogs. Sears,
(03:09):
based in Chicago, had four or five major headquarter hubs,
and Memphis was one of them. This entire thing was
the Sears headquarter for the Southeast, for all the catalogs.
And anyway, when Sears had troubles, this place was empty.
There was nobody here. This was fifteen years ago. This
was a ghost town and the neighborhood around it was
a ghost town. And they rehab this building. There's a
(03:31):
school in it, there's businesses in it, there's this awesome
Memphis Listening Lab in it, and it's revitalized this whole
part of the city. So it's kind of got a
cool vibe when you walk in. I know, you probably
didn't have any idea what you're walking into.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Not a clue. They even asked people, I say, hey,
where's this Memphis Listening Center? Right, Yeah, listening lab. Yeah,
that's it's.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
In the Crosstown Concourse right here at the Old Seers Building,
Memphis and cool cool vibing here, So welcome to us.
For those listening, Mac's story is gonna sound like a
country music song at the very beginning. Then it's gonna
sound like something you've seen on the movies in the middle,
(04:17):
and then the end is going to blow your mind.
I Mac, your man who's lived many lives, and it's
lucky probably to have one, considering some of your service.
But first we're gonna get into all that. Where are
you from? How'd you grow up? Well?
Speaker 1 (04:35):
I grew up in Cincinnati, Cincinnat, Ohio. Was an inner
city kid, went to a grade school in the mid
seventies and Cincinnati was still going through desegregation. But because
I grew up in the system, I was part of
the desegregation. I was the only white kid on my
school bus.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Right.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
He's a socioeconomic thing. Right. That's where I lived, and
it was I liked it in a lot of ways,
but I'm glad I got out.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Were If that's the case with your mom and dad
at home? Uh, my mom and dad had been divorced.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
My whole life.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Got it.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
So did you grow up with your mom? My mom,
and my grandparents got it? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
And I would assume from what you're saying, probably pretty
blue collar, lower income.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Very blue collar. My grandfather couldn't even read and write.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Really. Yeah, And what about your mom? What you do?
Speaker 1 (05:34):
She was on disability I remember most of my life.
She had some serious issues with dependency and psychological disorders,
you know here and there, a lot of anxiety stuff.
She had a few jobs, mainly secretarial type stuff. That's
back in the age of typewriters and stuff, right right.
You just know it's not going to happen anymore. So
(05:57):
was your dad involved in your life much?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Actually was he actually owned a business. He was a
meat cutter by trade. He was in the Marine Corps
for four years, got out, went to trade school to
actually get certified as a meat cutter, and he owned
his own shop there in a place called New Richmond.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Ohio, right on the river. Siblings no only job, me too,
and my dad left when I was four. So I get,
I get the life. And so where you come from
is inner city, not much money at all. A mom
who sounded like she struggled a little not talking about
your momb but no, no, absolutely, a divorce, probably a
(06:35):
grandfather who was in your life, I.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Guess, yeah, but he was. He was a strange person.
Strange person to me. He was a strange person. He
comes from the hills, Kentucky, I get it.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yeah, And couldn't read it right. Couldn't read it right right.
So not exactly a life of privilege or shiny castles
on the hill, No, not at all. And so in
high school, what'd you get into?
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Well? Sports, you know, because my whole thing was I
was going to be a pro ball player. I didn't
even pick a sport yet. I played tomorrow. I played football,
went right from turning in my equipment after the football season,
the basketball conditioning, getting done with that, and going right
to baseball. And I mean I just played sports year
round and I was going to be a pro ball player.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
That was it.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Period. But about my junior year, this is right before
I ran away from home. My junior year, I had
come to the realization that, dude, listen, you're not that big.
Football's out.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
You can't play basketball.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Matter of fact, I showed up for my sophomore year
for basketball tryouts. Coach put his arm around my shoulders
and said, hey, let's go talk to the swim coach.
True story, true story. That's how bad a basketball I am.
I swam that year and then baseball. And the funny
thing about baseball is is I really was not that good.
(08:04):
I'm left handed, so they made me a relief pitcher
because there were no left handers. You know, well, we're
gonna make him a picture. He can't throw, but we're
gonna make him a picture. And at the high school level,
I had two pitches, a fastball that really was not
fast at all and a curveball that hung about eye
level for three days before it would drop. Yeah, but
I struck people out. It was amazing. It was. It
(08:25):
just was coaches would get opposing coaches would get so
frustrated with their players. Yeah, but you weren't going to
go play pro base I were not. I know, I
was not going to go play pro baseball. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
So what did you get into? Well, drugs, using, dealing
well both.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Eventually that's what ended my high school careers. I got
busted for selling drug dollars. Came to the school and
I have a feeling, I know, Zachly what I think
it was one of my competitors that probably probably you know,
I was selling two dollars joints man, you know, back
in the eighties, back in the early eighties.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
You know, and it's not.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
A big deal, but you know, and it you know,
So here I am. I got no high school education,
I don't know what to do, don't have any skills,
and I am not going to go play pro ball.
I couldn't even I don't even think i'd be allowed
to walk on a college campus. So I joined the
(09:24):
Marine Corps.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
And I read what you said when you joined the Marines,
it was an opportunity to do something to get away
from all the life. But also you felt like maybe
it'd earn you some respect.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yeah, absolutely, because I my dad had no respect for
me whatsoever. He just didn't. I mean, I was actually
living with him at this time when I was. I
moved in with him when I was in my early
teens because my mom couldn't handle me anymore.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
And you were loving the street life.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
It sounds oh, absolutely absolutely. I ran streets for yeah,
it was, and I went to school when I wanted to.
You know, I had a little more structure, well, actually
a lot more structure at my dad's but I couldn't
stand it. I had a problem with authority. So this
is where the best and funniest decision that I made
(10:18):
at that point in my life was to join the
Marine Corps. And I had a problem with authority. So yeah, look,
straighten that out. I just knew I had to get
away because I knew, you know, even at the young
of age and being so naive about the world, that
I was going to either end up in prison or
(10:39):
dead eventually. I mean, because I you know, like I
tell people now, there's no four oh one K plans
being the thug. Yeah, just didn't. So Marine Corps. Marine
Corps where you can be a thug and it's allowed.
So you serve for twenty of yours. I actually retired
(11:01):
from the Army. You were tired for you went Marines,
then Army. Yeah, I did a hard one first, all.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Right, And I know you served in Panama, two tours
in Somalia, Bosnia, Afghanistan, and Rock and you forgot Desert
Storm the first very first one. Bro. All right, well
take me through that.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Well, I mean, so I made that fantastic decision to
get away from all the negativity and go to be
part of something a lot bigger and a lot better
than what I ever imagined. And there was no more
good decisions after that for many years, because when I
went in, I wanted to be in the infantry. Because
(11:49):
you know, like one of the things that really shaped
my decision a lot was Rambo.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah, are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Okay, the original one.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yeah, the Pacific Northwest. Were just climbing around in the
mountains and.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
He's just so tough, and he' said but he learned
it all in the military. Now Rambo was in the Army.
I joined the Marine Corps. But I knew the Marine
Corps had like special special operations branches.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Right the little little wings of their.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Of their corps. And because my dad was a marine.
So again I'm still trying to get respect from my
dad by going through some of the similar things that
he went through, even though it was different. He was
in the sixties and I was in the eighties. But still,
you know, but I wanted infantry. I wanted I wanted action.
I wanted to fight, you know, because it's kind of
(12:41):
all I knew. I didn't want to join the military
and sit behind a desk. Hey, I don't even you know,
I couldn't even comprehend that. But I had to go
in open contract. There was no guarantee for me because
I went in with a drug waiver. Did you really Yeah,
because they they well they don't even have those anymore.
I went in with a drug waiver, admitting that I
(13:03):
smoked Marion one of three times.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Three times on Saturday before noon. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Uh but but uh so I I had to go
and open contract, which basically means is they put you
where they need you. And I was like, oh my gosh,
please please please, anything but a baker. That's an actual
(13:33):
job in the Marine Corps. A baker, oh man.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
That time to cook the doughnuts.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
I had packed my bags and just left. No not
doing that. But uh, I looked out got in combat arms,
and uh I loved it. I found a family, even
though I which, where'd you do boot camp? Paras? I
joined in Cincinnati, So that was yeah, east of the Mississippi.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
And where's your first deployment? I guess station or deployment,
I don't know the right words.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
After I was done with all my training, I ended
up in Okanawa, Japan for a year, which was the
beginning to the end of my first marriage. I was eighteen,
I already got married lovely, yeah exactly, and a hard
lesson learned. First letter I got when I was in Okan,
(14:26):
now with the first letter I had received was from
my wife, tell me she's pregnant.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
I'm not going.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Home, and they actually allowed me to when the baby
was born, you know, I told her, I said, okay,
you need to notify the Red Cross when you go
into the labor you know. And then that way didn't
get a hold of me. Why I was coming back
from Korea because we did an operation in South Korea,
and when I got back, they allowed me to make
(14:57):
a phone calls like jail. Yeah, I mean, well I
could have made a phone call, but I'd have had
to pay for it. This is when I could go
up to like the battalion headquarters and make a phone
call out right. They said, oh, well he'll get up
a phone call. Man, really, really, kid man, seriously. The
the the hard thing about that is is that you know, yes,
(15:20):
we are divorced, and there was good reason but to
be honest, I had a business being married, of course
that age. But it was the fact that.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
The Marine Corps always came first, always, So what did
you see your first action?
Speaker 1 (15:36):
The first time I got shot at was actually in
the Philippines, the Philippines.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
I didn't think anything was going on in the eighties
and the Philippines.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Corzona Kino took over power from the Marcos regime. Yeah,
and this is what started my whole.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Was this some shoes.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
I'm just kidding, you know, but I know she had
so many pairs. She could have liked gave a whole
village like her, you know, shoes, right, and and but
there was a communist uprising when she took over power.
They had always been there, but they were kind of stifled,
and then they decided to start rising up. So we
(16:16):
went there as advisors. I had no business being it.
My name got put on a list and it was
a mistake. I should have never been on this list,
but it's what started everything for me. And because I'm
was I twenty years old?
Speaker 2 (16:30):
What are you at this time? Right?
Speaker 1 (16:32):
And three lance corporal yep. I had no business going
to Who am I going to advise?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Right? Right? Right?
Speaker 1 (16:40):
I got put on this list, man, and I was off.
And then when I got there, you know, there was
there was because at that time, there was a lot
of you know, security, secrecy and all that stuff, and
so well, you're here, you get read in and make
the best of it. And I remember it was funny
because we were actually walking through with the Filipinos, going
(17:01):
through the jungles and doing patrols. Right, they were called
harassment patrols. I've never been to your house, I've never
been on your property. I'm gonna come there not knowing anything,
and I'm gonna harass you. You see, Yeah, exactly, you
see how that works? Yeah, and and and uh yeah,
(17:22):
I remember we and they didn't try to hurt anybody,
I don't think, because nobody got nobody got shot. But
they they made us hunker down. I remember I was twenty. Yeah,
I was twenty, And I remember I became one with
a tree and I think I pete a little. I'm
not gonna lie.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yeah. What about the adrenaline, It was like.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
It was like a person who smokes crack. It was
like the first hit.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
It's weird. I've had folks that I've talked to that
have served that have said it frightens you and it
excites you, and it's a weird adrenaline rush. That you
really can't understand until you've been there. But in some guys,
that lights a fire.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, I instantly become.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Add to the military, to the adrenaline, to the old,
the whole thing. And now a few messages from our
general sponsors. But first, I really hope you'll consider becoming
a premium member at Normalfolks dot us. Y'all, the army
(18:42):
has twenty eight premium members right now, and we're setting
an initial goal of getting one hundred premium members. I
hope you'll be open to joining us. Why because by
becoming one for ten bucks a month or one thousand
dollars a year, you can get access to cool benefits
like bonus episodes, a yearly group call, and even a
one on one call with me. You're so lucky. But frankly, guys,
(19:08):
premium memberships help us to grow the army that our
country desperately needs right now. So I hope you'll think
about it. We'll be right back. Where were you when
(19:35):
you discovered a mass grave? Oh that was in Bosnia,
so tell me about that.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
So my team we were actually there to Our first
priority was to capture the war criminals, Mosevich Karate and
some of those other guys right to control them, put them.
We had a base. It was an Eagle base. It
was in Tusa Tusla b And we had a base
(20:02):
within a base that was a secure base. It basically
a jail. What we would do is we would capture them,
hold on to them until somebody from the Hague came
and picked them up and took them for trial. That
was our first priority. We never did get any of
those guys. We actually ended up catching a couple of
al Qaeda guys. Yeah, because during the Civil War, you
(20:26):
have to even though it wasn't religious war, you have
to understand the Bosnians were primarily Muslim and the Serbians
were primarily Christian Orthodox.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
It wasn't a holy war, no, but it was very
much a Christian versus Muslim thing.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Well the medium made it that way, okay, yeah, yeah,
Well that's what I've read. Yeah, yeah, and and and
that's the and that's the problem. It really wasn't it
was it was land, and it was it was who
controlled what which really you.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Know, but it was violent and nastiest. It was very nasty.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
It was very nice. It brought back memories from World
War Two, especially with captured Bosnians. Man, it was like
concentration camps. Our second or my second priority was pr
because I don't know, people tell me that, I don't
know how to identify it. But people tell me I
have a lot of charisma, right, so yeah, which was
(21:24):
good for me on the weekend when it comes to
picking up women. That was right. That was that was always.
You know, you can cut any of this, that's cool,
but you know, I mean, yeah, I used to, you know,
I used it a lot. I but but they set
(21:44):
me up for these radio interviews and I had an
interpreter who was a Bosnian Muslim, not a practicing Muslim.
She was Muslim by birth.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
That was it. Cultural?
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yeah, cultural she was. She was very much a young
European girl in.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Her twenties born to some Muslim parents.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Exactly exactly. But I hated her. But you never know
that if you saw us together. I hated her. I
hated because she was Muslim. I saw it as a thing,
right And I'll get into I'll explain that a little
bit in a second. But we come up with this
thing because you know, I'll talk and I'll just keep going. Well,
(22:27):
she has to interpret, so we would end up putting
our hands on the table. We'd hold hands, and she
squeezed my hand when she wanted me to shut up
so she could yeah, and then squeeze it again when
it was okay for me to talk again. It was,
it was. It was a great method. But of course,
you know, I got teased about it a lot. I
was like, man, that girl don't want none to do.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
So about that. It was a funny story. But it's not.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
No, it was not a funny story. It was nothing
funny about it. Let's touch on that mass grade first.
So the powers that be, whoever it was, had discovered
a mass grave two hundred and fifty odd remains.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
I worry that mass grave is not a great enough illustration.
And I've wondered this. I guess they take a traco
or a baco and dig a massive hole pretty much,
and they execute people and some are clothed, some or
not right. And that's what was in the grave.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
You could see where some of them there was clothes
to the skeletons.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
But I mean, had they uncovered it, had it been
covered and they uncovered it?
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yeah, I don't know how they Yeah, I don't know
anything about how it got discovered. I have not a
clue to stink. No, not really really that where we
was that kind of stunk anyway, because it's a lot
of rule area.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
But did you look, man, You take ninety nine percent
of the population, You walk them up to the edge
of a hole with two hundred and fifty bodies in
it that have been some mutilated, probably some tortured all
or most executed, some close, some not. Some in certain
(24:14):
levels of decay. Most people are going to be throwing up,
hiding their eyes, freaking out. How to affect you?
Speaker 1 (24:23):
I didn't care. There was this international like CSI team
that was there right collecting data, and they were it
was pretty neat to watch them work, you know, stuff
that they were doing.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Were they trying to identify the bodies?
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and they're.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
All Muslim, they're all from the Muslim side of this.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah yeah, I think it's safe to say they were. Yeah.
Because the actual village itself was a Serbian populated village,
got it. See the Serbs actually some Serbs actually live
in Bosi and they have like their own villages, right,
And the I guess she was in charge or whatever,
really nice looking African British woman and I'm there, I
(25:04):
got my guys. I already put a perimeter around nobody
in because we didn't want any of the serbs coming
in to mess with what was going on. We didn't
want them to mess with any of the workers that
were doing what they were doing. So I set all
my guys out, made a perimeter, and I stayed in
the center with the hum vy, the radio, and you know,
I had all my as we call it, battle rattle
(25:25):
and my M four right up here, and you know,
and then she comes up to me and I just
lit a cigarette and she goes, it's so hard to
understand how people can do this to each other. And
I took a dragging my cigarette and it blew out
the smoke and I says, not really. She goes, what
(25:49):
do you mean they're all Muslim. That's what I felt,
which comes into play. Everybody knew me, knew I didn't
like Muslims. Did not let it affect my job. And
my interpreter, Sarah. I took care of her because she
took care of us. She's very good. She took care
(26:09):
of us. She kept us out of trouble, which was
a full time job, just with me, and I was
not going to allow anything to happen to her. Why
she's with me. We were in the child hall talking,
me and some other NCOs. We were talking and they
(26:31):
confronted me with my hatred. They said, man, you gotta
quit hating on these people so much. And I said, why,
they're all evil man? And he said, well, what about Sarah.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Man?
Speaker 1 (26:45):
You like Sarah?
Speaker 2 (26:46):
I said, I do like Sarah, but.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
She still got to go, And if it comes time
to do it, I'll try to be there to do
it myself. I'll just put a nine to the back
of her head. She won't feel nothing, but she's got
to go. Why because she's Muslim? Why that was my
only reason? She's Muslim?
Speaker 2 (27:07):
That was it? But was it that all you'd seen
is videos of people's head getting chopped off and all
this other stuff, and you equated any Muslim to that.
Oh yeah, yeah, so you were programmed.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
But I took it to another level because you know,
a lot of people try to point their finger at
the military. They they put this hate in me, right,
They did not put this hate in me. The military
is too busy. They ain't got time to create haters. Okay, Well, yes,
but that's what they're supposed to do.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
But honestly, a civilized society may not want to admit it,
But the inconvenient truth is we're all safer because guys
like you were on the wall.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
It is a quandary, it really is.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
It is a quandary. But I'll be honest with you.
I sleep better at night knowing it well.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
And that's true, and that's why we are afforded things
in this country that we have.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
But we also don't want those people who we hold
in high esteem and we reserve the highest honors of
honor for like the Medal of Honor and things like that,
to also hate. No, And so it's this weird line
that listen, man, I know the rest of your story
(28:29):
and the rest of our listeners need to stick with us,
and they'll get to the redemption and a little bit.
But it is uncomfortable for me to know that you
had an en four strap to you and we're serving
our country and had no empathy for two hundred and
fifty victims of murder who was willing to put a
(28:53):
nine to his own interpreter's head simply because she was Muslim.
That is hard to hear.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
It used to be really hard to talk about. Now
I feel a need to.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
We'll get to that. So was that that was before
Afghanistan and Iraq? Yeah, so you're just getting tuned up, bro.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
So we went on an operation April fifteenth, two thousand
and four.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Okay, so Bosnia not eleven, not eleven hadn't happened yet?
Oh yeah, it had happened. I'm sorry on the two
thousand and one. So did not eleven lead you to
hate the Muslim community or is it already there?
Speaker 1 (29:58):
I don't know, And that's one question I have been
asked since I think first time I ever appeared in
front of somebody. What caused you to hate so much?
Honestly don't know. I honestly don't know. It wasn't nine
to eleven, you know.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
For you, it really wasn't. It wasn't. It was for
a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Well yeah, yeah. And it also ended up being a
huge population booster for Islam because especially throughout America and
the Western world, because this happened and people are like,
who are these Muslims? I need to figure this thing out.
I need to learn about that, And they did, and
they ended up converting.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Which we'll get to that. But okay, so Bosnia nine eleven,
two thousand and four. Now you are how long in
the military at this point?
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Oh gosh, I had a two year break between the
Marine Corney Army, which I'm so lucky I'm still alive
for that.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
But I mean, you're a veteran. Yeah, and are you
a sergeant at this time? Probably?
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Oh yeah, yeah, all right, sergeant in Bosnian up until
the time I became a staff sergeant, every rank I
had I had at.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Least twice, meaning you got busted down three times. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
the charisma. Yeah, so you leave Bosnia, you've got this
unbelievable hatred for Muslims. I also believe you must have
(31:34):
had a really deep seated love for your country. It
was everything.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
I tell people that, for lack of a better example,
the flag was my cross. I was a die hard nationalist,
not a white nationalist ian. That's the thing, because I
didn't grow up with color racism. Well I did, my
grandfather big time race. But I always thought, and I
(32:02):
would always, even as a young kid, would say, why
is he acting like this? You know, he wanted to
spank me one time for playing with as he called
I hate to say this word, I'll say it once
colored kids in the neighborhood. We lived in a predominantly
black neighborhood. Who else am I playing with?
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Right?
Speaker 1 (32:22):
But you know, kids, they don't see that stuff anyway.
And I always grew up remembering that man. Gosh man,
I love him, a Paul Man, but he was ignorant.
I mean, he just was about so much, man, and
I didn't. I didn't care what color you were. I
never did. I just care where you were from. And
(32:48):
if you're not from here, I want to know why
you're here and when are you leaving.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
You were that devout like you said, yeah, no what
you're cross? It was, and you were ready to die
for it.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
I used to at night when I would be on deployment.
A lot of times, I would just set and I
would it was almost like a prayer, almost to it.
I wouldn't really say a prayer, but it was almost
like a prayer. It was like a prayer type mindset.
I take the flag off my shoulder and just sit
there and stare at it. Sit down and stare at it, like, man.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
This is everything, devoutly committed.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Two Corps country the mission your men. Yeah, okay, so
now you end up in Afghanistan with that mentality that
baked into you your hate for Muslims. Nine to Eleven's happened.
I mean you're probably locked and loaded.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah, I And I was happy because now I can
actually rid the world of these Muslims, whereas in Bosny
I was more or less almost protecting him, really right,
and I like that never set good with me when
I made that statement to that, to that, uh British lady,
Yeah we got we got relieved in place.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
You were no longer the voice of the army. Right. No.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
They sent my team back and my team didn't get
any kind of but I took a lot of heat.
I had to go talk to the Sardin major and
Sartin majors, like you know, it was it was funny
in a way because you know, I go into his
office that you know, Sartin became report his order start Major.
He just went off. But my cursing, I mean every
(34:45):
other word, well, military language is a little different too,
a you know, I tell people, I said, man, I said,
I had to learn how to talk when I come
to civilian world, because you know, if you don't if
you don't put the F word at least once in
a sentence, is an incomplete sentence. And this guy was
just one off man. He said and shut that door,
slam the door. Sit down, Mac, Yeah, I want some coffee. Man, Hey,
(35:13):
you can't be saying that stuff.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
It's something. When I was reading this, I wondered, you
weren't the lone ranger, bro. There were other people that
felt that way, right, I.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Don't know of any, really, I mean, it would be
very naive of me to say no, but I yeah,
I didn't know of any.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
So it wasn't openly discussed.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Oh no, no, you know, because.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
There's also Muslims serving in the United States military, right, Well,
I mean I didn't. I didn't know of any.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Not that there weren't any, but I didn't know of any.
And so it was it was kind of you know,
I had created my own little world, and I was
very respected in the middle even no, even when I
would get busted, i'd still be respected, you know, because
what I got busted for usually was was overall was
(36:09):
a good thing. It just went against the rules.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
It happens. Right.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
We had a saying, is I'd rather be I'd rather
be judged by twelve and carried by six.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Got it.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
So, But of course that didn't really apply to me anyway,
because really, to be honest with you, I was looking
for a way to die. My goal, my destiny was
to die in combat. Because when you come back to
this country and a flag drap coffin, you were forever
known as a hero. It don't matter, it don't matter
what you did, how you did it. You're a hero, period, done, period.
(36:49):
And that's what really fueled my hatred when I when
I had gotten injured and as I even say today,
they kicked me out.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Well let's get to that. So you're an Afghanistan or
a rock I don't know which one.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
AFGHANISTANTUS. So I went from Bosnia, which is actually another
story too. We went on an operation there April fifteenth,
two thousand and four, and it was an actual mission.
We got intel that we were going to get Melosovich.
By the way, his code name was Elvis, no kidding, yeah,
because yeah, yeah yeah. And I was the third guy
(37:24):
through the door, really and he wasn't there but a
priest and the priest's son was there. Well, they got
up from the table pointing pistols at us. Well that
didn't work out. Well, we gotta do what we gotta do, right,
So operation's over and one one funny tidbit. This got
(37:49):
me in a lot of trouble. Oh my gosh. But
of course, you know, Smoke's cleared everything. Okay, look for Intel,
you know, is there any hard drives, any laptop, any
paperwork we're laying around. We scoop it all up, take
it back and let somebody who cares look at it, right,
And I had to do it. I got on the
(38:11):
radio and said, Elvis has left the building.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Yep, did you do that? I really did that.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Yet. No, it wasn't a whoops. I knew what I
was doing, but I had to say it. I had
to say it, man, I had to say it anyway.
So we went back. The Serbian government press charges, press
murder charges against the team I was with and myself. Right,
So American government, their infinite wisdom, said hey, you guys
(38:42):
are going to Afghanistan. So we went right to Afghanistan
and they could tell the service are not even here.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Right.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
I was really bothers me because I would like to
go back to Bosnia. But I don't know if that's
if that's still.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Hanging out there.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Yeah, I don't know if that's still hanging out there, man,
So you know, but uh so, yeah, So we went
to Afghanistan and that's when I got into well, actually
I went I came back to the stage for some
training and I will mention this. I won't talk about it,
but I will mention this. And I got trained to
uh do interrogations.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Got it. That's the same time that the Cuban jail
was starting to get going, right, the Cuban.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Jam Oh yeah, okay, I'm thinking jam.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah. Yeah, it's a jail in Cube. I couldn't remember
the name of the band, yeah, Timable Bay, so you know.
And it really was just enhanced interrogation techniques.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
Yeah, we had to do all that. Yeah, we learned
that and and and what a lot of people don't
understand is that in.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Order to.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
You were taught how to do it because it was
done to you.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Oh that's how you learned.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Yeah, which is not unlike like you know, your police department, Right,
upper spray, you get sprayed, right, stun devices, you get stunned.
That's what that's. You know, in waterboarding, you.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Got waterboarding, you got waterboard. How bad is it?
Speaker 1 (40:10):
It's different, it's different. It's well, no, I mean, I
mean it's it's horrible. It is literally horrible. But the mindset.
See here, here's the thing. I'm in school. You know
they're not gonna kill you. Yeah, this is going to end.
You know. When I went through a Seer school, which
is about you know, survival and evasion and all that stuff.
(40:34):
The thing is that you will get captured during that.
You cannot evade. These people know what they're doing. You're
gonna get captured right.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
In the school. In the school, and then you're gonna
learn how to deal with being captured. I showed back.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
I showed up after a week, back to my command
with a black eye and a bust of lip.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Wow, it was a right of passage.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
It was an honorable thing. But even though I went
through all that, I never told anybody anything because why
I knew it was going to end. This is not
every day for me, This is not my life. I
know this is going to end. So bear down, take
the hits and go back and hold your head.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Eye.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
No big deal.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
But now you're trained. But now I'm trained, quote trained. Yeah,
so and I guess in your mind, waterboarding a Muslim
you didn't care, Oh.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Gosh, no, no, matter of fact, I remember several times
when there was others that would pull me off of people,
and it's it's really sad that I even have a
memory of myself like this, but I enjoyed what I
(41:55):
did and it hurts to day.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
And that concludes Part one of my conversation with Mac,
and I promise that you do not want to miss
part two. It's now available to listen to as his
hatred gets transformed by love. Together, guys, we can change
the country, but it starts with you. I'll see in
part two.
Host
Bill Courtney
Popular Podcasts
40s and Free Agents: NFL Draft Season
Daniel Jeremiah of Move the Sticks and Gregg Rosenthal of NFL Daily join forces to break down every team's needs this offseason.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.