Jerrod Carmichael

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
And Martinez in Real Life podcast Carmichael everybody, Yes, yes,
Hi Rod, I like you so much already. I like
you so much already.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
I've been very excited.

Speaker 3 (00:17):
I like in my life shut up truly, like maybe
three dream people to talk to you. Who am I
on the list with it? This is Oprah, Charlie Rose,
Charlie's gone. We love Yeah, we lost Charlie.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
We had a great run, and it's like, but just.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
No Oprah yet? Ever.

Speaker 3 (00:41):
You know, I don't know if me and Oprah, I
might say Nigga too much for Oprah. I don't know
what it is about Oprah Like I love her. I
mean I think she's absolutely I know you love her too.
She's I mean, yes, she's absolutely incredible.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
She's been taking a beating lately. I feel like her
people don't love her as much like you used to
be unanimous that everybody loved Oprah.

Speaker 3 (01:02):
Well, it goes through phases. It was like, because I
grew up during the she's a sellout. My dad couldn't
stand Oprah. My mom watched her every day, so it
was always these waves of like they love her, they
hate her. She's black excellence, she's white, She's what like
you kind of I'm old enough to have seen those
phases that she's gone through, and so it's so yeah,
like right now people don't like rich people and they

(01:24):
tweet about it on Elon Musk's Twitter.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yeah, that's what happened. I love that I get to
be on the list with just me and Oprah for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
I was so excited, like, and.

Speaker 3 (01:35):
Uh, you know, I loved I used to like download
your interviews on like Kazah and lin Wire and stuff
like that, so random. Yeah, Like I just like I
was in North Carolina and so there was no way
to capture them before pre internet like things. And especially
like your interviews with Jay were like my father at
Jay's like like one of the architects architects of my personality.

(01:59):
So I love you and him together because it was
so it was just like always a great, exciting, funny
dynamic and you got so much more out of them
than everybody else.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
Well, we used to he used to call us the
Snoop and Dre of the radio because we had so
many great interviews. And I wish a lot of those
were on video because I don't think people A lot
of people don't even know that.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
Oh I love love I mean the post I mean
uh post r Kelly one is exciting, exciteding, exciting, like
post summer jam post. All these moments you find him
than when when he just showed up you didn't even
know he was coming. That happened, Yeah, you just like
had to like, I love all love that.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
That makes me so happy. Who were you back then?
Like in that timeframe? So you're listening, this is Andrew
Martinez JAYZ Interviews. Who are you?

Speaker 3 (02:46):
I'm a little kid and like probably bo was born
in eighty seven, so uh you know thirteen maybe and
wear my like Rockaware or Sean John or dabout like
T shirt the lots of logos and labels.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
My big brother lived in the house.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
He's like eight years older than me, so he was
the one that really put me on all the music
that shaped my personality, like just big. He was like
in North Carolina listening to Biggie early we had reasonable
doubt on Priority records. He had to tape the original
like Priority the original dead pres like and was like
one of the only ones at the time, like really

(03:29):
really a jay And you know, we listen to a
lot of New York rap and.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
Stuff like that are you funny?

Speaker 3 (03:36):
At that age, I'm learning I'm funny. Eighth grade, I
think was the moment when I really realized I was funny.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
There was this class debate.

Speaker 3 (03:43):
It's this guy, mister Nairi, who wanted us to have
a class debate, and he separated us into teams, like
he had us read this article. It's like, if you
agree with the man in the article, you sit on
this side of the classroom. If you disagree, you sit
on the other. And I was the only one who agreed,
and I battled the whole class. But I was funny,
Like everyone was laughing, and like the more people laugh

(04:06):
the more they saw my point. So I remember that
being a big turning point. But my family's funny. My
dad's real funny, like everybody's.

Speaker 2 (04:14):
Like my MIC's swallowing a little bit. So yeah, I'm
gonna get it together here, Yeah a little bit.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
You know. I've been going on never never walks.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
All I got.

Speaker 3 (04:24):
That's why I live in New York so I can
go on walks. It's all. That's my only exercise. I
got a couple of thirty pound dumb bells in the house.
Sometimes I lift them up.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
That's it.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
That's it.

Speaker 3 (04:33):
It's reuly nothing that's funny.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
You say your dad is funny because I only know
your dad from the show now.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
Yeah, and he's quieter now and more people like my
dad was. I mean, they're flashes to him younger on
the show. My dad was very charismatic.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
You gotta be.

Speaker 3 (04:48):
We can't maintain multiple families and not be kind of charismatic,
kind of funny.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
Yeah, you know. And also this is a very specific
time in his life that you captured his energy. That
is probably a little different.

Speaker 3 (05:01):
Well, he's now in the like, let's lead the past
in the past, let's not talk about anything. Just watch
the game phase of his life. Like he plays Madden,
so he just wants to play Madden. He doesn't want
to talk about the past. He just wants to like
was born. He was born in fifty seven, so he's
thirty years.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
Older than that.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah, gues, I find that that generation.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
Oh, they don't want to talk about it.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
I don't want to talk about that. No, they don't
want to talk about any wrongdoings or any like it's there.
They hired, you know, they would like cover up anything
that was like.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
Yeah, and he wants to be seen as a good
person like we all do, like we all want to
be good. Yeah, but he doesn't want to do the
work necessary to get to that. Like you have to
go through the bad things, mistakes, regrets, own them, own them.
You have to own them and go through them. And
he's more of the I apologized once I said it,

(05:54):
I said, Remember i said I'm sorry that one.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
Time for the second thousand.

Speaker 3 (06:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, like I said, I'm sorry one time
Merry Christmas.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah, there's so I don't want to dig into it
yet because I want to when we talk about this
show that is on HBO right now. I have so
many thoughts and so many questions, but.

Speaker 3 (06:13):
I'm comforting you can get anything out of me.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
So you know, I love that. I'll say anything to you.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
I love that for us. Well, let's start at the
beginning of IRL, because we ask everybody, on a scale
of one to ten, how happy are you today?

Speaker 3 (06:25):
Oh? Today's good.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
I feel really really good today.

Speaker 3 (06:32):
I'm only going to say a nine because I want
to give myself room for something else. No, actually ten,
this is if this isn't a ten day. No, really,
I'm happy to be here. I was excited to talk
to you. I feel like comfortable.

Speaker 2 (06:49):
I feel.

Speaker 3 (06:51):
I love that, Yeah, I feel good?

Speaker 1 (06:53):
Is that like on an average day, where do you land?

Speaker 4 (06:56):
Do you think?

Speaker 3 (06:57):
I mean there are days I'm usually a pretty happy person.
I've had phases in periods like you see it on
the show where I'm really tormented by.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
Things and I'm going through things.

Speaker 3 (07:08):
And that's really the reason we captured it, because it
was such a disruption to my demeanor, like who I
normally am, normally like a positive, happy person, and then
I was going through things like really like tough situations.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
I didn't know what the answer was and.

Speaker 3 (07:26):
I was trying to figure things out in my life
and I was in the fetal position a lot. And
it's no good. But that like a lot of that
is captured on the show.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
On the show, yeah, yeah, because I wonder about that
watching it, like it is it you? I don't know.
I've had a lot of conversations, not a lot, but
a few conversations about the show, and there's so many
different The way people lands with people is so different
from person to person.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
Yeah, no, some people can't.

Speaker 3 (07:52):
Some people Episode one like nope, yeah no is the
number one reason all the foot in the mouth. People
people get real conservative about like I've put someone's like
sexuality of it. I put someone's foot in my mouth,
and people are.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
Like, no, don't want it at all.

Speaker 3 (08:12):
I didn't realize people were so conservative until until that moment.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
I thought that was mild.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
Sexuality, Especially on display like that. You know, you can
lose people right away for sure.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
That's a big part of religion.

Speaker 3 (08:25):
Like a lot of religion is just like, hey, let
me I can't focus on what I want sexually, so
let me talk to this guy. Yeah, like, dear God,
dear God, take my sexual urges away from me, please please.

Speaker 1 (08:41):
You think that's the root of.

Speaker 3 (08:42):
I think that's a huge part of religion. I think
it's to cover up like sexual urgents, because a lot
of it it's like, I mean, religion is like drugs,
and a lot of drugs is to cover up sexual urgency.
And I think a lot of it is like like
sexual yeah, yeah, I think you go to God to
protect yourself.

Speaker 1 (09:03):
From So do you want to piss people off early
in this podcast is what you're telling me.

Speaker 3 (09:07):
No, I want to free them. I want to free them.
I want I want to liberate people. I'm feeling comfortable.
I want people to go through what I went through
because I was. I definitely hid behind God. I'm speaking
to myself a lot of times, it sounds like I'm
like just talking. I'm really talking about me. I was
a twenty something very religious person, and a lot of
the reasons because I felt wrong. I felt ashamed of

(09:29):
myself such a deep shame.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
I was gay.

Speaker 3 (09:32):
I wasn't supposed to be. That's not the idea that
my mother had of me or my father. That's not
who I thought I was. It's not who I wanted
to be. I tried to pray it away. I tried
so hard not to be gay.

Speaker 1 (09:45):
Oh my God, did you like literally say that prayer?

Speaker 3 (09:48):
I said the prayer I used to. I don't know
how graphic can we be on this one? Whatever you want?
So I like when I this is from like middle school,
early high school, Like I would get home from school
before my parents got off work. So you know, you're
a kid, you like, I have the Internet, So it
was like definitely going to like sits. I'm definitely jerking
off right. But I had to put things away because
of religious household. So I like had to put the

(10:10):
Bible away, because I felt like God was watching me.
That was always a presence. Put hide the footprints in
the sand, thing like just all these things. So I
would I would go to like a gate site jerk off.
I would follow it up with straight porn. I always
jerked off twice as a kid. I know I'm being
real grad, but I jerked off twice as a kid,

(10:32):
once for me and then once to cleanse myself. I
was like, okay, well, if God sees me jerking the
straight porn straight. I was trying to trick God, you know,
because you know, because God loves pussy.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
That's the thing about God loves pussy.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
Want second want to upset people, So you okay, so
you're trying to.

Speaker 3 (10:53):
Trick God, trying to trick God, trying to trick.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
Myself, trying to trick yourself. Really were you aware?

Speaker 3 (10:58):
I was trying to believe it, just trying to believe it.
I thought I believed it. I was like, this is
like because immediately I would feel the guilt. Oh my god,
I can't believe like lusting after men, Oh my god,
How did you know anything?

Speaker 1 (11:10):
Was there any examples of did you know anybody else gay?

Speaker 3 (11:14):
Or there were kids that we called gay. No one
ever made that statement. Like by high school there was
like one guy who was like out, maybe one or
two like guys that said they were gay. But in
the South, it's just a dangerous thing, like you fear
for your own safety. I get why nobody really came out.

(11:37):
And so there's guys, you know, leading the choir which
is lying to their grandmas. You know, that's the environment
I'm from, Like, you just don't say it, and people
respect you for not saying it, even the ones that
couldn't hide it as well, you just don't say it.
So it wasn't a lot. I didn't grow up with
a lot of examples of out gay men.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
That's so that makes me so sad for you, like
or not you, but the kid version of you, Like yeah,
a kid who's got it's just all of that emotion,
all of that like guilt and I don't know, just just.

Speaker 3 (12:09):
Looking for an out there. And because that's part of
the reason I wanted to make the show. I wanted
to be what I needed to see as a kid,
just like even with all the warts in the trouble
and the turmoil, I wanted to make something that I
wish I had seen. I remember when was in real
world when Karamo like he's on queer eye now, but
I remember him saying he was by and that was

(12:32):
like I was like, oh my god, it's like a
like a masculine black man that was like, I'm by
and like my homegirl every thought he was hot. So
I was like, oh, that's oh, he's so cool. Like
Karamo was so like secretly cool to me because I
just there just weren't a lot of examples.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
It's so interesting because now I feel like and maybe
just because I have a different perspective because I'm from
New York.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah, yeah, you have more of that.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
You know. We go in to clubs, we go to
gate clubs, go to straight clothes, doesn't matter, you know,
you're around. It's just a freer growing up in New York.
It's just a freer atmosphere. Yeah, So I I don't know,
to me, I can't even imagine living that in something
like you know, and.

Speaker 3 (13:11):
There are people that way, even in New York or
LA one of these major cities who still have like
a religious family, have like a mother that wouldn't accepted
or a father or someone that they stay in the
closet for and so even even in the most liberal situation,
most liberal city, like you still might have a reason

(13:32):
to be terrified.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
Terrified to make that statement, especially when.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
You talk about the fact that you were a hip
hop fan.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (13:40):
Yeah, I think about.

Speaker 1 (13:40):
Early hip hop and how homophobic it was. Oh yeah,
I mean obviously there's still tons of that happening. Yeah,
but earlier hip hop was even it was like no impossible.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
Nobody even thought twice about.

Speaker 1 (13:55):
It impossible for somebody to be gay and also be
part of hip hop.

Speaker 3 (13:59):
Call no it's over, It's over. Yeah, that was the
I mean, even the insinuation was.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
Like really crazy. Maybe when you think.

Speaker 3 (14:06):
Yeah, yeah, you reflect on it, you're like, what, what's
the accusation?

Speaker 1 (14:09):
But I think of you in that time and being
that age and just just confirmed it. Even in your
Withathaniel Special, you say there was a moment where you
were like that you were somebody who used to use
the term pause like you.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
Oh yeah, it was would I still kind of say
it as a joke, you know, it's still say it,
say Paul's no homeod.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
It's funny now because you're living in your truth, right,
But like when you're not.

Speaker 3 (14:33):
But that's a lot of what masculinity, A lot of
what masculinity is. I think it's defined by just don't
do anything a woman would do, right, Like that's like
it's like it's a very like historically narrow definition of masculinity,
like don't do anything a woman would do, including but
not living in too lusting after a man in any way.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
Oh my god, it's over. It's over.

Speaker 3 (14:56):
Like I mean, just think about like the number one
insults like suck my dick, like all these things. These
are like like just don't do anything, don't be soft. Yeah,
what does that mean?

Speaker 1 (15:07):
Well, you know, how did that make you feel about like,
I don't know, your favorite rappers when they would say
things or you know, you could be a fan of
the culture, but then also being someone insulted by it.

Speaker 3 (15:18):
And yeah, you know, well I didn't think I was gay,
So to me, I'm just like, yeah, get them, yeah yeah, yeah,
Paul's no homeo whatever. Like I identified with the straits,
like you know, I thought I was that I'm dating girls,
you know, Like.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
So then does that make the transition harder when you
finally coming to your truth and you realize, oh wait
a minute.

Speaker 3 (15:44):
Well, I just never thought I would that. That's the thing.
I never thought I would come out. I just assumed
I would, Like I assume I get married, you know,
do some stuff on the side. Maybe that was your
big plan. Yeah, yeah, I have.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
Some kids that my mom could be happy with.

Speaker 3 (15:58):
But never make that statement, because that's the hard thing
to say it, Like it's like, oh, I'm gay, Like
I never planned on saying that.

Speaker 1 (16:09):
I was the thing that made you well.

Speaker 3 (16:11):
Being in the closet was so stressful, it was it
was ruining my life. Like I felt like such a hypocrite,
just making my dad confront his secrets because I'm the
one that made him tell my mom about his other family.
Trying to live truthfully? What does that mean? Lying about

(16:33):
where I was last night? One lie to get a
million lives, Like you say one like it is true,
Like you never lie about one thing. Like if you
lie about one thing, you gotta tell a million line.
You gotta maintain it. You'd be surprised how often comes up,
Like no, I thought you said you gotta maintain it.
So I just got exhausted by it. I got exhausted

(16:53):
by it. I felt like a liar. I was a liar.
I forget. Actually I was thirty. I believe when I
came out maybe oh yeah, it was grown. Yeah, And
that's a little hard. It's a hard thing to deal
with because a lot of the show you see me
in a post adolescent phase. Right, I came out and now, okay,

(17:15):
I did the thing that a lot of people do
when they're sixteen the brave ones.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
Well, you're talking about what happened on the special, the
Ruthaniel Special, right, or you're not? Is that one of
that is that when you actually.

Speaker 3 (17:26):
Came that was me coming out public public. It was
very That was very close to when I told my
my friends and family, like I recently told them, and
by Rothaniel, I had the talk with my mom and
my dad maybe a year prior to that, and things
got really rough and we just weren't speaking. So then

(17:48):
I made the special as a response, like I didn't
go home for Christmas for the first time. It was
just a really really rough period in my life. And
so Rothaniel was, Okay, this is a statement to my mom.
It's really focused to my mom, like a thing for
her to see me.

Speaker 1 (18:09):
Yeah, I get that from you, like even from the
even when We were talking earlier about the news, the
new show, the reality show, and the different perspectives of it.
My perspective it is that you've been bottled up for
so long and then and then you like, not only
do you want truth for yourself, but you want truth
for everybody around you.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
Yeah, to live in it. It's hard for me to
even have small talk. I always say this about my boyfriend.
One of the things I love about him is that
he does not have small talk. He just won't engage.
We be on the elevator of people like yes, hot
out because I'm not doing this with you. But but
I I he's a very honest person, Like he lives

(18:50):
very truthfully and honestly, and I aspire to that. I
think I'm like kind of a natural born liar.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
First of all, all you do is tell the truth.
Of the reason some people can't watch the show is
it's like too truthy.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, it's too much truth. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
I think it's like somebody who's been bottled up for
so long, it's like, oh d.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
Truth, yes, oh no.

Speaker 3 (19:11):
This is like remember the Jim Carrey movie Liar, Liar
just like got struck by lightning or something, just had
to tell the truth.

Speaker 2 (19:18):
I have to tell the truth all the time.

Speaker 3 (19:22):
But it's a response to my life up until this point,
where I lived in secrecy, a lot of shame, everything
was a lie, compartmentalized friends, compartmentalized parts of my life.
Wasn't like I was keeping one hand from the other.
And now I'm like, no more of that truth like truth, truth, truth,
which can be hard on relationships. My boyfriend calls me

(19:44):
the thought police, So I'm like, you mean that, I'm
always just like I'm always giving them the Larry David eyes,
just like yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
And how's that working out for you? Like all of
this truth, how does it feel?

Speaker 3 (19:58):
Oh, it's rough, it's rough at times. It feels good
to live in that to not because I was so
used to.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
Because it's not just sexual it's not just your sexuality,
it's not just being gay. That's the truth. You're even
being truthful about whether you can be monogamous, You're being
truthful about You're just being truthful about your relationship with
your parents.

Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yes, And my belief is that everybody's in the closet
about something, Like everybody has some part. Some people like
are anti social and in very highly social environments.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
Smiling, lying, going home, crying, going home.

Speaker 3 (20:30):
Crying, just like devastated. I was in the closet about
more than my sexuality. And the show is me just
coming out of a million closets, Like all right, let
me come out of all the all the closets, all
the things that I was ashamed of, all the things
that I would normally hide.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
Hey, now you got.

Speaker 3 (20:49):
Nothing on me, Like, now I'll just be totally honest
about everything in my life. And now the world doesn't
have Because it felt like the world had a secret
on me, and I had to stay in line, be
a good boy because like any moment, I could be exposed.

Speaker 2 (21:03):
And I don't feel that way anymore.

Speaker 3 (21:04):
Good for you, Yeah it feels.

Speaker 2 (21:06):
Good, But it's also people will hate you for it.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
It doesn't come with no cause.

Speaker 3 (21:10):
Yeah yeah, yeah, people will. People will get mad at you,
sometimes for good reasons, sometimes just because they don't want
to see the truth in themselves. They don't want to
confront it, they don't want to live in it. They'd
rather live in the pleasantries and the small talk.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
They'd rather live in that realm.

Speaker 3 (21:26):
And sometimes I feel like I'm standing in this circle
of reality and I'm inviting people in, so people just
don't want to join the circle. Some people would rather like, no,
come back out here, we're safe. It's yeah, come back
out here where we could we just talk about nonsense.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
That's boring.

Speaker 3 (21:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:43):
And then somebody like you was like, you're a comedian,
and I don't mean in the traditional sense comedian. It's like,
but comedians by nature to me are like, you're supposed
to be finding the deepest, most unique truths.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
Yeah, to make art well about my soul, that's what
I mean.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, you're around the question, you're like watching your Comedians
by nature are observers. You observe people, You observe situations,
and your job is to like bring it to us
in a way that we go, Oh, that's funny, because
I never thought about it. Oh, yeah, you're right. I
never you know, Yes, you're meant to do that.

Speaker 2 (22:13):
Yes, and I'm doing that.

Speaker 3 (22:14):
I think before I came out, it was always I
was trying to bring the truth about everything, politically, racially,
whatever I was trying, I was throwing a lot of grenades.
Now I'm only talking about the thing that I have
ownership over myself, my life.

Speaker 2 (22:28):
I'm not even an expert on my own life.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
I'm still figuring things out, but a lot of my
time spent on stage is exploring the problems that I have,
exploring the truth, understanding it, understanding myself, And that's felt
so much better. It's like even like now people come
to the show and it's it.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
Is so fun.

Speaker 1 (22:47):
I want to go to a show. You have to
for sure, I would love that.

Speaker 3 (22:50):
Oh I would love that. I would love if you
were there. Yeah, I feel so much pressure with you
in the crowd.

Speaker 1 (22:55):
Stop, I would love that.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
That would be my best show.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
Stop it. Yeah, that would be so much fun. Or
a New York show.

Speaker 3 (23:04):
Oh yeah, for sure. Do you have a hard time
telling the truth? Because I feel like part of the
reason I love you and part of the reason I
was like excited to come here, is because everything always
feels so honest, Like all your conversations always feel so honest.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
You're this ray of light, like your light.

Speaker 3 (23:17):
Isn't diminished in any way, and you feel very bright
and very very attractive. And I feel like I feel
like you went and struggle with it, or you're able
to overcome that struggle.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
But that's me projecting that.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
That's a good question. I think I have always tried to.
I think that's my interview thing, right, It's like, if
I'm talking to whoever it is, I'm trying to find
their truth.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
So if you're a rapper, if you're a singer, and
if you're presenting something to me that feels false, yes,
I'm going to try to get you past that. Yeah,
get to the truth of what you're saying.

Speaker 3 (23:50):
You're really good.

Speaker 1 (23:51):
I try to find truth. I try to find truth
in people. I don't try. I don't want to hurt anybody.
But like, let's let's get to know you really. Yes,
I know you're posturing a little bit right now, but
let's get to know you.

Speaker 3 (24:01):
Know.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
That's my thinking.

Speaker 3 (24:02):
Because what it's cool about you, you'll be like we
can just not talk about it. Like if you don't
want to bring the truth, that's fine, we could go
somewhere else.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
But like, yeah, totally, I'm not trying to hurt you. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, I'm not.

Speaker 1 (24:12):
Trying to hurt you. And if your truth hurts you
and you're not ready, then I don't want to do that. Yeah,
But like yeah, so I think so so. But the
thing is I was always able to do that in
conversation or find some truthful connection with people. But I
didn't give a lot of my own stuff, you know,
I would I had the luxury of talking about somebody.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
Else about them.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yeah, so this podcast is really when I had to start. No,
maybe before my book. I wrote a book and I
shared a lot, and so there's moments.

Speaker 3 (24:39):
In my books when I watch episode like I was
watching the Ryan Coogler episode of Great. Yeah, but you're great,
like you also share you are also very open well.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
Now because I'm like grown up version of myself now, yeah,
but younger version of myself are always a little protected,
especially in the culture, you know, hip hop and a
woman running around town and trying to.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
Oh it's hard.

Speaker 3 (24:58):
I couldn't imagine just being in that highly masculine environment
you see it place. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:03):
Do you ever remember like episodes of me crying or
getting vulnerable in any of those.

Speaker 3 (25:08):
Yeah, wow wow, Yeah. Yeah, you just kind of had
to be the one of the guys kind of well
because comedies like that in a sense, like like female
comedians and like female rappers, Like it's a really strong
ravado that you, like a lot of time, you put
on for success in the you have to be super tough,

(25:31):
and you gotta have thick skin and and and I think,
you know, while that serves a purpose, like it's like,
you know, what's really interesting is vulnerability. Like the ones
even like the rappers that I love are the ones
that like give you a crack of vulnerability where I
love Jay. I think it's part of the secret to
Drake's success is that like it gives you, he gives

(25:53):
you a window vulnerability.

Speaker 1 (25:55):
Yeah, well now it's like cool now, like being vulnerable
is fine. You know, thank you to Brown. I know
I saw that the dog you're watching were trying to
get Brenee on the show. Such a great what I
think I promised to be my most vulnerable if we
get Brene Brown on the show. I cried off. I

(26:18):
cried in my last episode we did earlier today. No,
I'm comfortable now doing that. But back in the day,
that wasn't that wasn't a thing. I don't. I think
maybe the first time I cried on the radio was
probably when Pop died. And I remember even in that
moment thinking to myself, oh God, this is like not okay,
Like I gotta get I got to pull myself together.
It wasn't a comfortable like somebody really important, somebody that

(26:40):
had just recently impacted me passed away, and I'm it's
okay that I'm crying on the radio. No, No, My
feeling was like get yourself, get your ship together. You're
on the radio, like what are you doing? And I
cried and it happened, but I was it was not comfortable,
and then you know, unfortunately lost the other time. Yeah,
it was read alert.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
Yeah, yeah, red alerts, like hey, get it together.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
Women were on the radio. Thought it wasn't like that. No, no,
but I'm just saying.

Speaker 3 (27:08):
But it's hard to reveal that part of you.

Speaker 1 (27:10):
Oh, vulnerability was not.

Speaker 3 (27:12):
You're afraid people are gonna dismiss you. Is weak. I've
been afraid of that my whole life. Just oh, you're
gonna write me off? We cast them, cast them aside.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
Did people write you off?

Speaker 3 (27:24):
No? I found the opposite. I found the opposite. I
found actually deeper connection. The more I revealed, the more
I actually show. And that's why I don't mind even
some of the response to the show. People have, like
a kind of negative response. I know that's necessary, especially now, Yeah,
it's necessary, like people like that's That's why it's hard,
because people will have a negative response to certain things

(27:47):
that you reveal. But on the other side of that
is deep connection, like you find people. I'm recording these
things in search of connection. I want to connect with
the audience. I want to connect with people, and you
can only do that. You can only have a truthful
connection by revealing things about yourself that make you uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 (28:05):
Are you getting that from Like, are you getting a
reaction from people who have yet to come out and
are aspired by your journey?

Speaker 3 (28:13):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah, yeah, or recently came out.

Speaker 3 (28:16):
I got my little private ig that we message on,
like in in the little in the DMS.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah yeah, I sound so old like mad.

Speaker 3 (28:27):
All the time.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
I'm not trying to act above it, but I but
I forget.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
But but the terminology what I.

Speaker 3 (28:33):
Was trying to think of was the hidden requests, you know,
like the people who aren't your friends, so the hidden
request folder. I read some of those sometimes and they
are very thoughtful, very very heartfelt messages of people who
just came out to their families, who struggling with being seen,
who's struggling with making the statement about their lives, like
some gay, some not gay. It's it's been very beautiful

(28:55):
people on the streets, it's been very, very beautiful. I'm
thankful that people have such a strong response to this.

Speaker 1 (29:01):
So that's really nice to see. That's what we all hope.

Speaker 2 (29:03):
It makes me really happy.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
We hope that when we live in our purpose and
we do our work and we are truthful, that in
some way it lands on somebody and it affects them.

Speaker 3 (29:12):
Yes, makes it worthwhile. Otherwise you're just doing it in
the vacuum.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yeah, I felt like I felt that from you. I
felt because some of that some of the show is
hard to watch, Like it's tough stuff, even especially the
stuff with your dad and your mom, your parents, the
sexuality stuff. It's like, okay, if you're if you're not
used to it. I mean, if you've never been around
somebody gay, maybe that rubs you the wrong way. But

(29:36):
if you have, it's really not that it's funny. A
lot of it is actually funny to me. You're outragel,
But I also feel because you've been bottled up for
so long, you're like, why not be the frise I've
ever been?

Speaker 2 (29:52):
What am I hiding now?

Speaker 1 (29:53):
Like?

Speaker 3 (29:53):
What from who? Like I'm hiding from what from you?

Speaker 1 (29:57):
From you, You're like, yeah, I don't know, You're you're
talking to the kid who had know like who was
searching for that? Like you said, the small, younger version
of yourself. But like some of the conversations with your
dad about having him having other a whole other, whole
other family.

Speaker 3 (30:13):
Yeah, yeah, at least at least he had four kids
by one woman. There might be some others. We can't
get them to talk about it.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
Not I'm not confirmed. You know, there's all types of
ways that I.

Speaker 3 (30:24):
Know, but there's there's like a couple floating around. I'm like, bro,
you already.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
Part of me felt happy for you watching not happy.
Part of me felt like I was I understand, I
understand you want truth and you're comfortable with the camera
on helps you get to your truth. You say that
yourself on the show. Then part of me I felt
bad for him because I felt like he just looked
so and he's older now.

Speaker 4 (30:49):
Right, So yeah, so it's like this.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
The poor guy. But then you don't want to go
down the poor guy road too much because he also
has to answer for some of the things that have
affected his son.

Speaker 3 (30:59):
In a real he's older now, I use a Sopranos analogy,
where like you think.

Speaker 2 (31:05):
That did you watch the Sopranos.

Speaker 3 (31:06):
Yeah, so like in the show, you think that I'm
Tony and my dad's uncle Junior. But emotionally he's Tony
and I'm aj like like I'm still the kid, like
afraid of him, like terrified of his.

Speaker 1 (31:20):
Oh it doesn't come off like that at all.

Speaker 3 (31:22):
Yeah, Well, the cameras give me a little bit of strength.
But the thing is, I need the cameras because you
don't know what Thanksgiving is like without them. Like it's
so it's he just gives me a look and a recoil.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
I'm terrified.

Speaker 3 (31:36):
Oh yeah, of course, of course he's got that like
that Joe Jackson Grill family like this man, like I
just know he's got guns in the house the show.
He was big. I know you don't see that, but
but he he was someone I've always been afraid of.
Don't get me wrong, charming funny wasn't like just like

(31:57):
terrified every day, but like the certain lines you don't
cross with my dad. And now part of that is
how he maintained the secret, Like he was able to keep.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
Everybody in line.

Speaker 3 (32:08):
And I felt not only brave enough with the cameras,
but also it incentivized me because otherwise it's like, oh,
I'm just wrong for bringing it up. You're ruining Christmas Jeriid,
they'd say, like for asking the questions that I really
need to know the answer to questions to help me
figure out my own life. I'm trying to move forward,
and I want my dad to move forward. He lives.

(32:32):
So my secret is being gay. His secret is the
other family. We both want to be seen as good people.
We both are weighed down by that secret. Like you
could see it in my dad, like he carries it
with him and he's he's afraid to go outside.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
He has a lot of shame.

Speaker 3 (32:48):
I'm trying to do the thing that when I came
out Rothaniel, it's like, hey, everybody knows I'm gay. I
got nothing to hide. I don't got to like lie
to people on data and apps. I gotta like do
I can just be myself. I'm trying to liberate my
father in that same way, like, hey, it's on HBO now,
and I've been doing this for years, Like I had
like two documentaries before this where we talked about it.

(33:10):
It's like it's over, Like this thing that you were
trying to hold onto, it's out there. Everybody knows. Be free,
move on with your life, like, enjoy the rest of
your life.

Speaker 1 (33:20):
How has it been since it's come out better or worse?
Did it work or did it not?

Speaker 3 (33:27):
Always trying to get them to see me, see themselves.
I can't tell. I can't tell. It's it's led to
conversations we were afraid to have. Now my dad calls more,
they ask about my boyfriend, which feels really nice. I
feel seen in that way. So I do think it helped.
I think it helped in many ways to be able

(33:47):
to just have these conversations, break through that wall, and
now it's out in the open.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
You know what's interesting to me? One thing about you
talk about your dad and him having this whole other family.
But then you even on this in the reality show,
we see you really struggle with being like monogamy is
not a thing for you, Yes, So I just wonder
how much of that is because of your father or.

Speaker 3 (34:14):
The example that was set, like like, okay, this is
the relationship you model yourself after your parents, like or
whatever immediate relationship you see growing up. So my dad
maintaining a secret validated as manhood in some way, a
way that I'm still trying to figure out. I think
I seek that same validation.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
I'm trying to. I'm trying to validate. I'm trying to.

Speaker 3 (34:38):
I don't know if it's the cachet of numbers. I
don't know exactly what I'm seeking.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
Well, you were bottled up for so long.

Speaker 3 (34:43):
I was bottled up for so long. But I'm still
seeking validation in some way. Luckily I'm gay. Otherwise they'd
be like eleven kids running around like if I was straight.
There's so many kids with these eyebrows just running around
the Metropolitan Yeah, oh my god.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
Yeah, insane.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
But it's funny that that's the thing that you want
him to be free about and owning that part of him,
but you're still kind.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
Of I'm exploring it and his help. I need his
help in answering these questions about myself, because your parents
are the blueprint for your life. You can either rebel
against it or you follow in the footsteps, but they
are they are a template. And I'm trying to understand him,
and I want him to understand me.

Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah, everybody everybody got things with their parents, parents, parents,
daddy issues is a very common conversation here on the
in real life.

Speaker 3 (35:40):
Mommy and daddy issue you got, Yeah, it's a it's
a blessing.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
I'm not on Heroin, like somehow I'm not on Heroin.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
What are you going?

Speaker 2 (35:52):
Like?

Speaker 1 (35:52):
What is what is your advice?

Speaker 3 (35:53):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (35:54):
I don't know what it is. It's sex.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
It's sex, for sure, actually for sure? Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 (36:02):
Yeah. Yeah, it's a quick thing to turn to, something
that gives me validation, gives me a sholt of energy.

Speaker 2 (36:09):
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
How do you feel about how I don't know. I
saw what happened with the breakfast club, and also I've
seen some other comments, you know, just social media ship
from response to some of the things on the show. Yeah,
how do you deal with that? Like a blowback or
I don't know. You make this thing, this piece of art, Yeah,

(36:31):
for your own purposes, for your own reasons, and you
put it out in the world and then it's received
and then you get shipped back.

Speaker 4 (36:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
I think the all the cake and everybody just took
a piss on it.

Speaker 1 (36:42):
Yeah, they throw the cake at you, they take the
cake is trash.

Speaker 3 (36:46):
I did expect a certain amount of this shows at
the intersection of a lot of things, sex, religion, race, masculinity,
a lot of things that people can take opposite sides
on and clash over. The Breakfast Club was a rough
period because there was a lie just being spread and
being spread as the truth, and so I went in angry.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
I was very, very angry, and.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
It was a liar, was just perception.

Speaker 2 (37:14):
Well as it was reported.

Speaker 3 (37:15):
Was absolutely a lie, and it affected me and my
relationship in a way that I just couldn't. I wouldn't
stand for that because it was a lie. I give
enough for people to talk shit about, Like, there's plenty
to talk There's so much you could throw stones at
and like, and I'm fine and I'm making something. I
know that I'm going to be analyzed and dissected and

(37:39):
have like such a sometimes an angry response, sometimes a
visceral response from Twitter or Reddit or inscrimt whatever. But
what I couldn't handle was a lie being perpetuated, especially
by charlomagn knew, somebody that I respect, and I just
I went in upset over that. I saw Kevin Hart

(38:02):
at a party. He was joking about it. He was
just like, he was like, don't never let him see
you angry. I was like, but what if you mad? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (38:10):
Then what like what I do?

Speaker 1 (38:11):
You don't know your truth?

Speaker 3 (38:12):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (38:13):
Yeah, the truth. I was like, I was mad. What
do you want from? He did a funny impression of it.

Speaker 3 (38:17):
He was Kevin Hart was just like okay, okay, you
be you be Charlemagne and I'm gonna be you and
asked me how I'm doing.

Speaker 2 (38:26):
I was like, how you doing? It's like no, no, no, no,
like fun all that ship.

Speaker 3 (38:31):
Like Kevin, Kevin is so funny.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
That's funny. You did going angry. I guess that's probably.

Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (38:37):
It's never good. It's never good.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
But I mean it was true.

Speaker 3 (38:40):
It was true. Yeah, somehow like the Shade Room issued
a retraction. That was a victory for they did. They
followed up, what more can you ask for?

Speaker 1 (38:49):
What did they say? I didn't see that.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
They just they played the whole joke.

Speaker 3 (38:52):
It was like all I asked is like you can
still talk shit, but just like you know, yeah, play
the whole thing. Put some context out there.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
The race is always going to be, oh.

Speaker 3 (39:00):
For sure, especially now.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
And I know I get it.

Speaker 3 (39:02):
I got it from the trailer, like you know, you
put it out I got a white boyfriend. People get
upset about that. People have really really strong feelings. It's like,
you know, what can you do here?

Speaker 1 (39:13):
I am?

Speaker 3 (39:13):
I mean, it's funny because I am in love for
the first time in my life, and here I am
with someone who cares about me and I care about him,
and it's it's already it's hard enough to find someone
that you're compatible with just across all areas, like like,
just like I got to sleep with this person. I'm
not even talking about sex, like sleep, like compatible in
the bed, on vacation, food and interest and all these things.

(39:38):
You got to find somebody that you align with. And
I finally found that. And it's just like, who cares
what race that person is. I'm just so thankful to
have somebody. I'm so thankful and I needed them.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
This is your first time like being in love?

Speaker 2 (39:52):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (39:53):
Oh really?

Speaker 3 (39:53):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (39:54):
Yeah in any true way? Yes?

Speaker 1 (39:57):
Wow? What do you attribute that to? Like what do
you think.

Speaker 3 (40:00):
Self acceptance getting over? Like I was hiding for a
long time and I met my boyfriend when.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
I was straight, Right, shut up, I didn't know that.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yeah, I've known him for seven or eight years.

Speaker 1 (40:12):
Did he know you were straight?

Speaker 3 (40:14):
He knew me as a straight man, and we have
a mutual friend and so like I came out to
our friend and said I wanted him like I wanted
my boyfriend. So it was like my friend called Mike
and was just like, guess who's gay and who wants
to fuck you?

Speaker 1 (40:35):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (40:35):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (40:36):
It's like shortly thereafter, well, I went through a phase.
I was going kind of crazy for a little while,
and then like it was a few years later and
now and now I'm learning from him.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
I'm at peace now. When he's out of town, we
FaceTime to go to sleep.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
Oh my god, you are like in love.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
I got the laptop on the bed.

Speaker 3 (41:00):
I don't even like I don't even like electronics in
the bedroom, but I need them.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
What is it about monogamy? Then what is the problem?
He's like your guy?

Speaker 3 (41:08):
Yeah, I know, I know. And then I think, does
he want that still?

Speaker 1 (41:11):
Because he was kind of he was okay with you
not being okay with it yet.

Speaker 2 (41:15):
Yeah, and we and we opened it. And even with that, I.

Speaker 1 (41:20):
Feel like he opened it but only because you wanted to.

Speaker 3 (41:23):
He's so mature and focused and he's like, yeah, if
you need it, he's understanding. He doesn't worry about it,
like he I think there's like the last vestiges of
adolescents that I had to get out of my system.
And even still and also there is attraction for someone
else outside of the relationship, and that's it breeds a

(41:45):
lot of jealousy. And there are gay men and open
relationships and that's really really rough.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
But it also.

Speaker 3 (41:53):
Creates an opportunity to actually talk about things that you
would normally push aside. Like if I if I were
in a like a straight relationship, it just wouldn't even
be an option. I got like straight friends who can't
even say a girl is pretty. They're just like they
an They're like, I'm not even looking like they just
have to pretend those emotions don't exist.

Speaker 1 (42:14):
It's interesting because even in the show, like like if
you're this straight guy who can't bring himself to get
past certain scenes and can't watch.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
Yeah yeah, yeah, you're so straight.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
You're so straight that the show makes you uncomfortable. If
for some reason you are able to manage to get
through it. An interesting thing for anybody, whatever your sexuality is,
is the way that you approach a relationship and with
the honesty that you do that's talking it out so
dope and inspiring to.

Speaker 3 (42:40):
Me was just don't lie. We just don't lie to
no matter what I mean. That's that's the goal. Don't
get me wrong. There's still we're humans, so things happen,
things could happen, things could slip through the crack. Sometimes
you don't even realize. I don't realize I'm holding on
to something. Oh I didn't tell you that. Oh I
I wasn't even lying to you. I didn't realize. I

(43:03):
just was withholding information like the So it's sometimes that
comes up. But it is beautiful to be able to say, oh,
you can go through my phone and there's no surprises,
there's no I have no secrets from you, there's nothing that.

Speaker 1 (43:19):
There are people that would love to have a relationship
like that.

Speaker 3 (43:22):
I'm thankful for and it's the only way for me
because otherwise, and I was the one that was lying.
I was the one like I fucked up, yeah, and
you know, and then I was projecting suspicion on to
him because.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
I was fucking up.

Speaker 3 (43:35):
Like it's just it's all just traumatic all around. But
I'm glad we were able to actually communicate now, to
actually say tough things, really difficult things.

Speaker 1 (43:46):
What is what have you learned most from this relationship?

Speaker 3 (43:51):
Oh, I don't even want to say anything like cliche,
but I understand the practice of making it work, the
practice of being open. It's that, it is practice. It's
like something that you have to work at every day.
And he's somebody that I want to keep in my
life forever.

Speaker 2 (44:08):
I love him very very much. So I don't want to.
I don't want to.

Speaker 1 (44:11):
Just you know, I don't want to do whatever.

Speaker 3 (44:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
Yeah, so I don't want to.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
I don't like managing it with yes.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
The interesting thing too, is watching you not only your
relationship with him or your parents, but also your friends.
We see friend like friendship is clearly an important thing
to you.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
Yeah. No, It starts episode one.

Speaker 3 (44:35):
I had feelings for a friend and I expressed them
and then we couldn't talk about it and things were
just awkward.

Speaker 2 (44:44):
For a year.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
This is Tyler the creator. Yeah, everyone on said, who
hasn't watched the show? Yeah, yeah, I say that because
he's a public figure and your first episode.

Speaker 3 (44:53):
Yeah, it's part of the reason I invited him to
do it, because he's used.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
To know what he was walking into.

Speaker 3 (44:58):
He told me he I knew it was going to
be some crazy shit because he knows me, and he
knows that, like I was, I was asking him to
have a conversation I was afraid to have.

Speaker 4 (45:08):
So yeah, no, it was so sad.

Speaker 1 (45:11):
I felt so sad for you when he didn't really respond.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
I'm a vulnerable position. Yeah, it's memed out on TikTok.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
Yeah yeah, yeah, of course of course.

Speaker 1 (45:22):
So then what happens when he sees that back? Is
there a reaction from him?

Speaker 3 (45:27):
Yeah, he was like joking about it on stage. Yeah,
it's it's like, what can you do? It's an awkward thing.
It's very awkward. It's awkward without cameras, And that's part
of the reason I wanted to bring it in because
I know I'm not alone and going through this very awkward,
uncomfortable experience, and I wanted to record it. I felt

(45:48):
this instinct to just record it and put it out
there because I'd never seen a conversation like that before ever, Like,
and it's it's embarrassing. I was very embarrassed to have
these feelings. Was I'm required, So it's doubly embarrassing.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
Are you able to go back to what your friendship
was after you kind of are vulnerable with your friend.

Speaker 3 (46:07):
Like well, able to actually live truthfully once the conversation has.

Speaker 1 (46:11):
Had But is your friendship back to or not really?

Speaker 3 (46:14):
Well, I mean we live in different cities, so it's
not It is a different thing, you know, and will
be a different thing, and we'll evolve over time. But
but we're able to actually be honest. The most uncomfortable
thing was said, So what else is there?

Speaker 2 (46:32):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (46:32):
What else you got?

Speaker 2 (46:33):
What else you got?

Speaker 1 (46:33):
But even your straight friends, you college roommate was a college.

Speaker 3 (46:37):
I never went to college. I had a high school friend,
just a high school friend.

Speaker 1 (46:41):
You said that he felt tricked into having a gay
best friend.

Speaker 3 (46:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was like he would have never
signed up for it.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
So funny you never Yeah, it's so funny to me.
But you took the time to like make sure you
were Like, I don't know, friendship seems like it's important.

Speaker 2 (46:55):
To very important.

Speaker 3 (46:56):
Well, I mean that's kind of the the gay thing,
like the the chosen family, because you feel alienated from
your family and so then you build, like you rebuild
your family with your friends in your life. And that's
a very common thing amongst gay people. Who come out,

(47:17):
who have a rough experience at home, and so my
friends became my family. That became very very important to me.
So and most of my friends were very accepting. And
then any sense of rejection from the chosen family, You're like, oh, no, hey, I.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
Thought I filtered. I thought I filtered that out.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
And then what do you think? What do you think
makes a good friend? Oh, because it seemed like it
matters to you.

Speaker 3 (47:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a really good question. And I'm
still learning the answer to that because I retreat in
certain ways when things become overwhelming. That's the bad habit
that you see in the show. I just like run,
just like stop answering calls and texts. Horrible thing to do.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
Not ideal.

Speaker 3 (48:09):
Oh it's bad, It's really really bad. And I'm learning
from that because I've had to happen to me. It
doesn't feel good. It is being there, it's being open,
it's listening. I think listening is very very important. Hearing
someone seeing someone, like accepting someone. I think that's the

(48:31):
role of a friend. To accept all of it. You
don't have to always agree, but to accept, to say
I still.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
Love you, m yeah, yeah, and showing up you showed
up at your friends. You missed the wedding.

Speaker 3 (48:44):
I missed the speech. I was supposed to give a speech.
I was the best man at my friend Pool's wedding.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
He was pissed.

Speaker 3 (48:51):
Yeah, well he was fissed because I had on a
different I didn't want to wear the tucks everybody was wearing.
I don't like black on black tux like about you.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
Know, but you know I'm still gay and.

Speaker 1 (49:03):
Fashion fashion over front.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
Yeah, yeah, a little bit, a little bit.

Speaker 3 (49:08):
It's just like like, I don't know if I love
anybody enough to do a black on black talks. Do
a black like that's just redundant ass talks.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
Dare you even ask?

Speaker 2 (49:20):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (49:20):
He should be he should he should apologize.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
Yeah, I don't love anyone enough for a fashion faux p.

Speaker 1 (49:25):
He should apologize for you for even asking you to
wear that. Are you happier since it's come out, since
the show has been out dressing all those things.

Speaker 3 (49:35):
Yeah, there's a couple of stressful moments, but I also
know that it's necessary. Being seen is stressful. The anxiety
of being seen is very stressful. Oh my god, they're
gonna see me. Oh my god, they saw me?

Speaker 1 (49:47):
Then it's like, okay, yeah, cool, it's funny because I
think there's probably people that can relate to that on
every level. Like you said, everybody's got a thing. Your
friend says to you, your friend who decided not to
be in the show to wear a mask and hide
it voice. Is he famous by the.

Speaker 3 (50:01):
Way, he is? Right, I can't confirm anything. Okay, i'll
tell you.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
You will good because it was bothering me. I was
really trying to guess who he was because he's really
smart and it seems very cool.

Speaker 2 (50:11):
Who cares about me a lot?

Speaker 1 (50:12):
Yeah, I could tell. But he said, you know, you
take the most like vulnerable, vulnerable parts of your life
and you're like serving it.

Speaker 4 (50:20):
Up to.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
Well, just to the public.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
No, no, he said something to the effect of, like the.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
What did he say?

Speaker 1 (50:29):
I think I have it? I think I have it
in my not told them. I'm gonna tell you right
now what he said. Oh no, it wasn't that bad.
Maybe in my mind it was. He said, you take
the most intimate parts of your life, for the most
cherished parts of your life, and you serve it up
to the public, and like the worst part of the
public is there too, So you're serving like the most.
I don't know why. I guess it's why.

Speaker 3 (50:51):
I'm trying to be as public as I was private.
So it's a personal decision because most of my life
lipped in such secrecy and such fear.

Speaker 2 (51:03):
That I'm just trying to just put it all out there.
I said this.

Speaker 3 (51:09):
About my special Rothaniel, which could apply to the show
as well. That the premise could be man who's afraid
of heights skydives on national television. That's essentially what I'm doing, Like, oh, okay, well,
I'm just gonna face my biggest fears.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
Being seen is Yeah, being seen is a huge fear.

Speaker 3 (51:29):
It's terrified that people would see me, they would judge me,
they wouldn't like me. They would and it's happening.

Speaker 2 (51:36):
Some people are just like.

Speaker 3 (51:37):
We don't like and I'm like, okay, you know, it's okay,
you got to take that. I offered it, but.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
It's still better, right, Oh for sure, yeah, for sure?
What is your What do you say to somebody who's
at that point like do you is this like don't
try this at home thing? Or or do try this?

Speaker 3 (51:55):
I hope everybody gets their own reality show. People seem
to be aiming for again, like if you are posting,
like if you're One of my favorite responses is a
woman on TikTok.

Speaker 2 (52:06):
She's like recording on her phone.

Speaker 3 (52:07):
She's like, what Gerid Carmichael needs to understand is that
everything don't need to be on camera. And I'm like, man,
we're all on the same Internet, like like HBO Max
is just.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
A corner of the Internet.

Speaker 3 (52:20):
Like we're all just sharing the same Internet, putting things out,
wanting to be seen, want people to say, I see you,
I hear you, I understand you, I accept you. That's
the whole and that's what I'm putting things out for.
Mine has really a specific but a lot of it's
for my family, for my parents, like I want them
to see me, I want them to understand me. It's

(52:41):
this eternal quest to be seen and understood by them.
But also in the larger sense, I like also the
public I want to be. I think the rejection that
probably hurts the most are from the communities that I'm
inherently a part of. If it's a rejection from the
gay community, from the black community in any way, that

(53:02):
is definitely hurtful because it's I am you, you know,
I am you. I'm living the same experience as you,
and I'm not lying to you like that's that's part
of the thing that hurts, where you're like, oh no,
I'm actually not lying to you like I could lie.
Most public figures aren't this honest. They mostly don't put

(53:22):
out the things that could make them unlikable, but like
I'm doing it in the hopes for acceptance.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
Has there been anyone, even publicly that has supported you
that you were surprised that they they got it and
they were ooh like.

Speaker 3 (53:39):
I think that there have been some good like dms,
like we talked about before, you know, the Kevin Hart
Kevin Hart. I don't know if you've seen the show
Kevin's Kevin's Busy with thirty Companies or whatever, But I
talked about Jays that he's one of the first people
I sent it to. I sent Jay the episode with

(54:03):
the road trip with my dad just because I thought
he would like relate to it, and he sent me
a really sweet, thoughtful response to it, and he he
told me one of my favorite parts of his response,
because I go to bow Jangles like this restaurant, like
looking for a sausage biscuit, for half the episode, and
Jay was like, you're going hard on the bow Jangles
chill Champ, and I promise you I haven't eaten pork

(54:26):
since it was a year ago, Like Jay, I promise
Jay I would give up pork, and he's gotten me.
So it's like I made a promise to God, I
give up pork. And so yeah, it's made me healthier.

Speaker 1 (54:36):
And you sent to him.

Speaker 3 (54:37):
You sent him that, and I sent him I sent
him the road trip episode. But I think he responds
to things that I do and it makes me feel really good,
like he's such an artist, He's a true art And
I do think that artists have a different response to
it than the general public because artists know the dangerous

(54:57):
territory that I'm in, right, Actually, Like portraying something this
truthful and putting it out for the general public to
dissect and to comment on is a place that people
don't typically go. They don't for good reason because it
doesn't feel good to be like analyzed and yelled at

(55:18):
or whatever. But it's it's also it's it feels like
new territory in a way.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
Yeah, because it's brave. I think that's what I said
to you when.

Speaker 4 (55:26):
I first saw it, Yeah, that's sweet, but.

Speaker 1 (55:31):
It's what I felt was my immediately reaction after watching
all I don't remember the words I said, but I
said it was like crazy, brave, all the things. It's
like all the things truthful.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
Yeah so wild watch.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
Yeah it is, but it's but it's mostly it's brave
to me, especially like you said, just when it's your
most vulnerable things whatever it is, not just not just
the sexuality of it, but just all of it, and
just putting all of your soft spots myself and yourself
spots you must be. Are you proud of yourself for that?

Speaker 3 (56:05):
I feel good. I feel like I'm not hiding. And
there's a lot of like very proud of Like I
put out things that I'm ashamed of, things that I
was embarrassed.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
By that would you put out the youth?

Speaker 3 (56:20):
Well, I mean to all of I mean from episode one, Oh,
it was like a lot of it's embarrassing. There's people
some of the comments of like like this is embarrassing.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
I'm like, I know I say it in the show,
like this is embarrassing.

Speaker 3 (56:34):
Yeah, like things that he'll do it.

Speaker 2 (56:35):
Yeah, because it's embarrassing.

Speaker 3 (56:38):
That's all the more reason to put it out there,
to not be controlled by that, because you can be
controlled by that emotion. You're embarrassed by something, you want
to hide it and you want to control it. You
want to rewrite, rewrite it.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
What about the healing part of it? Like you do
a lot of therapy.

Speaker 3 (56:52):
Yeah, I do psychoanalysis four times a week. What too,
double sessions?

Speaker 1 (56:56):
Yeah, four times a week.

Speaker 3 (56:58):
So it's two double sessions on Tuesdays and Wednesdays.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
Which is what two hours two and a half hours
twice a week. Yeah, that's a lot.

Speaker 4 (57:10):
Yeah, that's deep.

Speaker 1 (57:12):
Never therapy, no therapy for together?

Speaker 2 (57:15):
Was that? Like?

Speaker 3 (57:17):
I like when my therapist goes on vacation because it
gives me like, yeah, okay, you're right.

Speaker 1 (57:22):
You're just like being accountable for all your ship.

Speaker 3 (57:24):
Well, explore because you want to know what's underneath.

Speaker 2 (57:27):
That's the thing.

Speaker 3 (57:27):
Like when you start exploring your own life, you realize
that all of your actions have something deeper behind it.
Like and I'm trying to bring that to my family,
but trying to get my mom to explore it is
just like because it's.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
Easy to just.

Speaker 3 (57:41):
My mom uses the word preferences a lot. Well, that's
my preference like, I'm this way because it's my preference,
and I'm always like, yes, how do we get here?
What's behind that? What led you to this preference? What
led you to this decision? And that's something that my
family isn't used to explore, and I try to introduce that.

(58:01):
That's what you learn in therapy. You start exploring your
own life. You start realizing like, oh, this is oh,
this is why. You start drawing lines between something happened
when you were eight to a thing that you're doing
when you're thirty eight. Like you realize like, oh, it's
been thirty years of.

Speaker 1 (58:18):
What has been the biggest revelation for you through therapy?
I know there's probably so many.

Speaker 3 (58:28):
Yeah, it's a lot because it is day to day.
I realized, like a lot of like my sexual behavior,
it's rooted in things that I saw or felt or
didn't feel as a child.

Speaker 2 (58:43):
I realized a.

Speaker 3 (58:44):
Lot of my selfish behavior is rooted in inadequacies I
felt as a child.

Speaker 2 (58:50):
Fear things that I was afraid of. Start drawing life.

Speaker 3 (58:53):
Yeah, I'm trying to think of I'm trying to narrow down.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
The therapist tells you something and you're like, holy shit,
that's right. Yes, Oh my god, I love that feeling.

Speaker 3 (59:00):
Oh, I hang up. Actually, I don't know that. You
have a big moment. No, it's over. I'm not going
to top it. And we call it Lacan. There's this like,
uh funny, yeah, we just I just hang up. That's
so funny, Like this is it for today.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
He reminded me of a thing that happened to one
of my interviews back and the cameraon told me one
time that he does he gives his like his assistance
and all his like publicists. He's like, he gives him
a time the beginning of the call. Okay, you have
ninety seconds.

Speaker 2 (59:27):
Oh Jesus.

Speaker 1 (59:28):
So they say that what they need him to do,
and he literally just hangs.

Speaker 3 (59:31):
Up the PHO.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
That's funny. I get that.

Speaker 3 (59:33):
I do get like I wish I could do that.

Speaker 1 (59:35):
I want to do.

Speaker 3 (59:36):
I want to do a trick if you if you
go into a party that has a lot of people,
I enter saying goodbye. So if you enter the party
saying like I was just leaving, people say the thing
that they wanted to say to you, that they would
say for later.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
They just get it all out.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
Then that's really good. Hey, oh yeah, I was just
about to live. I'm so good to say good to
see you, yeah yeah, and then bye. Then do you
really leave?

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
Yeah yeah, I usually leave a party pretty.

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
I'm gonna try that. We should try that at home, everybody.
We should try that in real life. How that works
for us. I'm gonna totally try that. Sometimes people think
therapy is just when you got bad shit going on,
or when you're in crisis, or when you're no depressed.

Speaker 3 (01:00:20):
It's an excuse to talk, and it's explored up during COVID.
My mom really wanted to get her hair done and
we were all bef was like it was during the
don't leave the house phase, like you don't leave, and
she was like, okay, except I need to go. She
goes to the Dominicans. It's the thing she needs it,
loves its. But but I was like, why is this

(01:00:42):
so important to you? She's like, again, this is my preference.
I like my hair a certain way. And then I
kept asking her questions and we got to a place
where she was the only black girl in one of
her classes and felt so left out, like and she
saw how guys treated the other girls and treated the
girls with the straight hair and how she started to

(01:01:02):
see that as ideal and like we got into a
really really deep, beautiful place through exploration. It's a place
you wouldn't normally get to. It's like, oh, she likes
to hair a certain way. It's like yes, but.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
Why Yeah, did it free her at all?

Speaker 3 (01:01:15):
I hope So I always hope that. I hope that
that's what I could offer because I tried to protect
my mom for a long time and now I want
to offer an outlet for my parents. Like it's it
really is with the hope of freedom, like that I
do these things. It's insane. I acknowledge that that's insane
because somebody could Friday nights, say, in all our business,

(01:01:36):
somebody could.

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
Watch it and go, why is he doing that to space?

Speaker 3 (01:01:39):
Oh? People do?

Speaker 1 (01:01:41):
Yeah, you know it could people could think it's mean
or it's tough.

Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
I would invite them to dinner at my mother's house.

Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
They wouldn't know why.

Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
Yeah, but you're right if it ends up, I mean,
the best case scenario, right, is that it ends up
with a place where they are freer and they live
a better life. Yeah, that's a good therapy. No, I mean,
it's a revelation. But that wasn't do therapy you hope
to find that out.

Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
Well, it's something I learned through it. It's like paying
for it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:09):
Yeah, I'll do a therapy session. I keep a weekly
and even if everything's just super great, I'll do it
just because I trust this person's opinion. Sometimes I would
want to flush an idea out, whatever, whatever the thing
is of the week.

Speaker 3 (01:02:22):
And yeah, even sometimes when things are great, you ever
like have a great moment and you get afraid it's
gonna end. I mean like it's like foreshadowing doom is
what people call it. But like you're just like everything's
going so great. Oh man, everyone's having a wonderful time. Like,
oh man, what if the ceiling cave in?

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Are you that guy?

Speaker 3 (01:02:42):
Yeah, I'm terrified. I'm always waiting for the other shoot
to drop. I'm always afraid that something's gonna happen. And
it's like I can't even just let a beautiful moment
be a beautiful moment. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
My therapist told me that I tend to go to
doom Doom's day for no reason. Everything's totally fine. Why
do you have But a lot of that is from
PTSS at a bad car accident so I'm like trading
cars the worst thing, you know if if you know,
my husband's laid and I'm like, it's okay, Yeah, of
course something happened in.

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
Those things.

Speaker 3 (01:03:17):
Linger they stay in your body and they affect your
day to day life in a real way. And unless
you explore that, unless you actually go to the uncomfortable
place and say, wait, why do I think this way?
You just just live with the pain.

Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:03:33):
Yeah, that's not the good way to do it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
It's not good.

Speaker 3 (01:03:36):
It's it's not good for your health, it's not good
for your day to day life. It's not good for
your relationships. Yeah, because you start taking that out on
other people.

Speaker 1 (01:03:43):
For sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure, look at you giving
healing advice out to look at you and healing advice
out to the world.

Speaker 3 (01:03:52):
I mean, I got a sex therapist that me and
my boyfriend see together and I see alone. I got
my therapist, got we got all the therapists.

Speaker 1 (01:04:01):
Do you ever think you could do you think that
you could ever be fully healed? Is that like a goal?

Speaker 3 (01:04:07):
Well, as long as you have new experiences, there's new
ways to process them. So like, yeah, like sometimes I
joke with my therapist like have I graduated yet?

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
Like, is this over? Did I? Did I do it?

Speaker 3 (01:04:20):
You know? But there's always there's always something new to explore,
and maybe you take breaks and and I'm one of
those people that are like, maybe you are finding ways
to explore and to contend with your life and you
don't need therapy, like sure, but you have to ask
the questions. And if you aren't made uncomfortable by something
in your life, then it's usually a sign that you're

(01:04:42):
not facing something that you need to face.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
You're so good, You're really good.

Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
No, you're good.

Speaker 3 (01:04:47):
I'm so you don't know how happy I am.

Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
This feels really good.

Speaker 3 (01:04:51):
I've truly like when I saw I when I saw
you at that party, I like wanted to say I.

Speaker 1 (01:04:56):
Was we were at a party together. I thought, this
is not We didn't meet though right now because.

Speaker 3 (01:05:01):
I was afraid. I know, I saw you over there,
you were like over like everyone was to you, and
I was just like kind of in a corner.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
This is all that here.

Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
This was the jay Z four four four the night
it came out, Well, that was the private party, because
that was that's the house you're at the house.

Speaker 2 (01:05:18):
That pretty cool.

Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
That was I don't think that was their househouse. I
think that was like a loaner house till their house
was ready.

Speaker 3 (01:05:24):
Yeah maybe, yeah, still gorgeous, gorgeous, beautiful blue life.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
He's running around four four four, which was his most
Jay's most.

Speaker 3 (01:05:32):
Personal personal personal as a fan, I'm just because he
showed evolution, and that's the thing that Jay offers to
wrap that I I try and offer to Like what
I do is like, okay, can we evolve? Like a
lot of times, like you get stuck at one thing
and it's profitable, so it's easy to be stuck at

(01:05:54):
the one thing.

Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
And Jay just his.

Speaker 3 (01:05:57):
Work grows with his life and I really respect that.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
It's funny because what was the time I don't want
to get this wrong, what was the time between Lemonade
and four for four? Like not that long, right, maybe
a year?

Speaker 3 (01:06:09):
Yeah, I actually don't I don't know, but yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:12):
I just remember that night having a conversation with Beyonce.
They were so comfortable for two people who never share
their private who are so have been so private and
intentionally private, Yes, to share so deeply.

Speaker 3 (01:06:30):
Oh, they do so with their work as part of
the reason they don't need to give interviews like they're
sharing more than the average artists for sure their work.

Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
But I just remember that night that they seemed so
at peace and so happy with with that. They weren't
uncomfortable about it at all. Yeah, they had that kind
of like the energy you're giving me right now, it's
a freedom I feel like they had that. They both
had that, and they were both really I said something
to each of them about how it affected me and
they and they both you could tell that that really

(01:06:59):
mad to them. Why they It's huge.

Speaker 2 (01:07:02):
Again, like.

Speaker 3 (01:07:04):
You know, this is a man who had the mantra
I will not lose. Making an album about fear of loss.
It's huge.

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
It's huge.

Speaker 3 (01:07:14):
You can't. You can't overstate the importance of that to
the genre.

Speaker 1 (01:07:18):
Oh yeah, if you compare the lyrics of Young Jay.

Speaker 2 (01:07:21):
Yes, growth, growth, Yeah, growth.

Speaker 3 (01:07:24):
And as an artist, if you're never contradicting yourself, then
don't call yourself there.

Speaker 1 (01:07:28):
So we were both at that same party together.

Speaker 3 (01:07:30):
We were there, but you were you were like in
the cool corner would be just like you know, it's
just on the.

Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
Perimeter, just like drink.

Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
If you were a house.

Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
I want to say, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say.

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
Hey, I wish you would have we would have had
that moment, had.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
A moment, we had a great moment.

Speaker 3 (01:07:45):
Yeah. No, I remember you being there and just feel
like like I want to say everything, like I loved
you forever.

Speaker 4 (01:07:52):
That too sweet, That is very sweet.

Speaker 1 (01:07:56):
That was a great night. That's a good one. That's
a good memory for us that I remember that wh
we were there, a very beautiful night. I have a
whole bunch of in real life questions that I want
to ask anything.

Speaker 3 (01:08:05):
I'll tell I'll say anything. I'll roll my career today.

Speaker 1 (01:08:08):
Shut up, I don't put you What could you possibly say?
What else? What else could you possibly have left in
the chamber? I would have to like literally set you
up for no reason looking for a click, which I
would never do to you, which you are, by the way,
very prone.

Speaker 3 (01:08:23):
To like click.

Speaker 1 (01:08:25):
Yeah, if you're going around like did you do a
lot of press? You didn't do that much press after
the or did you try and limit it?

Speaker 3 (01:08:32):
And I value another reason I was excited to come
here because I I I need thoughtful conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:08:39):
Yeah, I get that, because it gets it gets lost
low hanging fruit.

Speaker 3 (01:08:43):
Oh, it's very Oh it's so easy to write the
show off, to write me off, Like I need a
thoughtful person, that one that's actually watched it, because there's
a lot of that too. It's a lot of like,
you know, I saw thirty seconds and fuck this, niggah.
It's a lot of that. So like I need someone
who actually watches the thing and has a you know response.

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
I always think about this for people who have to
like the thing about sexuality, it's like, okay, whether you're
gay or straight or buy whatever your thing is. I'm
a straight woman, but I don't want to talk about
my sexuality all the time. So if I had to
come out as being straight, like if that was a
thing for me, where I had to the whole world
was gay and I had to be like, guys, i'm straight. Yeah,

(01:09:27):
and then every day people want to ask me about
sex and sexuality like that would be really uncomfortable for
me because it's linding your damn business. Well.

Speaker 3 (01:09:36):
The unique experience of being gay is that, I mean
this is a joke, but I think it's true, is
that gay people have to tell their mom what they're into. Yeah,
And that's a conversation that I want to never have
to have. My brother never came out as straight. He
just showed up with five kids. My mom knows what
that is and how it got there. Like, so there's

(01:09:58):
no questions, there's no conversation. I had to make the
statement to explain my life, to explain why there's no wife,
why there's no I had to I had to come
out and explain, Hey, this is what I like and
this is what the rest of my life is going
to look like.

Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
And it's hard.

Speaker 1 (01:10:16):
Yeah, But in saying that, I understand because sometimes I
see people. There's certain celebrities that most of us kind
of know what their lifestyle, but they don't. They don't
ever come out and there's always this like chatter about
what they should and you know, they should be honest
about and I think, why why would they? Why would
anybody have to?

Speaker 3 (01:10:33):
Yeah, And it's still that and it's still scary because
the thing is people some people be like, oh, it
doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
But then I mean, you know, I've read enough about myself.

Speaker 3 (01:10:43):
I'm like, no, it's still people to say really hateful yeah, but.

Speaker 1 (01:10:47):
Things yeah, And then then you have to talk about
it all the time. Do you ever get tired of
that being a conversation?

Speaker 3 (01:10:54):
I don't mind. I don't mind it, mostly because I
came out later in life, so there are things that
I didn't explore, And a lot of my work is
me exploring these questions that I have, like what does
it mean? What does it mean to stand firmly in
the idea of being a gay man?

Speaker 2 (01:11:12):
Does it make me less of a man? Does it?

Speaker 1 (01:11:15):
Like?

Speaker 2 (01:11:15):
How do I contend with that?

Speaker 3 (01:11:17):
Like a lot of the work that I make is
me trying to answer those questions. So I have a curiosity.
I like things. I'm not even afraid of things coming
off as homophobic, Like there's nobody more homophobic than the
man who hid his sexuality for so long.

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
Like I was saying, this is wrong, this is bad.

Speaker 3 (01:11:36):
I like, there's almost nothing that someone could say or
ask that I haven't asked myself, or that I shouldn't.
I need to ask myself these questions. So I at
some point it would be you know, I've answered those
questions and we'll move on to something else, you know.
But I'm still yeah, I'm still asking.

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):
Not now when you just put out this show showing
us all your business. Now it's just now people.

Speaker 3 (01:12:00):
Got questions, So yeah, I still got Yeah, they got questions. Now, no,
we got questions.

Speaker 1 (01:12:05):
It's really funny. All right, I'm gonna ask you some
real life questions. Now, in real life, in real life,
what do you pray foremost?

Speaker 2 (01:12:12):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:12:15):
I mean you did grow up in a church? Yes, yes, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:12:17):
I try to accept the divinity within and my prayers
are trying to align myself with what I believe is
an innate good, that what God is is within me
and within you. I try and recognize that in you

(01:12:37):
when looking at you, saluting the divinity within you. There
was this exercise that I used to do and I
can't remember. It's a thing that I don't know if
I made it up or if I read it somewhere.
But anyway, if I'm out in public, I imagine that
I'm stuck at the bottom of a well, and every

(01:12:58):
face that I see is the first space peering over
the edge, and that person has the ability to save me,
to rescue me, to help me. And I try and
see that in people like I. It you get rid
of any shell. You just see the good. You just
see God. That person over the edge is God, and
I try and see God in you. I try and

(01:13:18):
recognize the God in me. And accept that and live
like that. And it's it takes work, and it takes
daily realignment. But that's my prayer every day, all all
the time, multiple times today, constantly, I'm trying to realign
with that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:33):
Yeah, religion must be, Religion must be I I I
separate from religion from God. You know, yes, must be
an interesting thing for you to explore, especially having grown up.
And then also some of the views of like your
mom feels like it's a sin.

Speaker 3 (01:13:51):
Yes, and and a lot of times you don't l
but she hasn't had to explore the religion itself, right.
I coming out meant that I felt rejected by the
religion that raised me, by my mother's religion. So I
was forced to go off and read. I had to
read literature about the religion that I grew up in.

(01:14:12):
I had to try and understand it. I had to
put things into context. I search for a deeper understanding
that most people don't have to search for. You just
kind of accept God as is, as it's taught and
separating the week from the chap. Some things are in
the text, some things are taught, some things are cultural.

(01:14:32):
Some things are just said in the church that are
that have nothing to do with the text, but that
are accepted. There's a funny list of things that I
can't think of any of the expressions, but it's a
list of expressions that people just assume is in the Bible,
and there's nothing to do with the Bible.

Speaker 2 (01:14:49):
The Bible.

Speaker 3 (01:14:51):
You'd be shocked by the Bible never explicitly states that
there's an afterlife.

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
Heaven and hell.

Speaker 3 (01:14:58):
That's a whole other combu we wouldn't need We would
need three in real life to get down.

Speaker 1 (01:15:03):
To all of that. And you don't want to opening
yourself up.

Speaker 3 (01:15:08):
Things are starting to get better with me and my mom.

Speaker 2 (01:15:10):
Let me not.

Speaker 1 (01:15:14):
Hmmm, in real life? What are some of your pet
peeves and triggers, pet heaves, things that annoy you, that
annoy me.

Speaker 3 (01:15:27):
I'm a fast walker, so I don't like people that
lack self awareness on the sidewalk. I don't like people
who think they're in an episode of Girls and walk
like three in the line on the sidewalk and like
they're not being filmed with the funk out of my way.
I hate the SIGNI because it's got sodium minute for
no reason.

Speaker 2 (01:15:47):
I hate uh oh, I hate.

Speaker 1 (01:15:50):
So much more yeah, yeah, so many things.

Speaker 3 (01:15:52):
I hate the illusion of danger and art. I hate
people that call themselves dangerous but aren't the really puppy.
I hate, I hate, hate a lot of things, a
lot of pet peeves.

Speaker 1 (01:16:06):
That's pretty good. I have a terrible one for myself.
It's like one of my It's like something I feel.
It's really a terrible thing about It's one of the
not nice things of myself. I have a real problem
like when people trip, like like that's it. Like if

(01:16:28):
you're near you know the natural reaction. If somebody you
care about trips over this thing, they walk by, your
natural action, it's oh my god, are you okay? Yes,
what's happening inside of me is annoyed. I'm like, loser
you looking at them like the it bothers me. It's
like and I'm working on it because I know it's fould.

Speaker 3 (01:16:48):
I think it is in control that they lack some control.

Speaker 1 (01:16:52):
It's like, get yourself together. It's like a thing like
I have an aunt. I love her. She's so clumsy,
Like we're in the supermart. She's the one that likes
walking behind you, is looking at the thing on the
floor and crashes into your ankle. And the cart like
bangs up the whole back of your leg, and I'm like,
come on, man, pay attention to where you're going. It's
a little world out here. Drive me nuts. So it's
the similar type of thing when somebody and I never

(01:17:15):
really noticed about that about and I had an old
assistant shut out to Monte. He said in the same
that he was in the studio one day and he tripped,
and I was like, and he said to me, can
I tell you something about you that you don't even know?
That I don't know if you know or not about yourself? Yeah,
I was like, what what is it? He's like, you know,
you get annoyed when people like trip or like fall,
like you should ask me? Am I okay?

Speaker 2 (01:17:36):
Wow?

Speaker 1 (01:17:37):
And I just was like, wow, you're right, that's terrible.

Speaker 3 (01:17:42):
That's a great topic for therapy though, right have you
explored that?

Speaker 1 (01:17:45):
I haven't, But now that you just reminded me about
that about myself, something must have happened when somebody was
inconsiderate or klutzy.

Speaker 3 (01:17:51):
And then I mean even something because.

Speaker 1 (01:17:54):
I is that not crazy behavior? Is that? Am I
a terrible person?

Speaker 3 (01:17:58):
Sometimes? Sometimes I have like I have a negative reaction to.

Speaker 1 (01:18:02):
You tripped earlier and it bothered me, you know that
right in the back.

Speaker 3 (01:18:06):
But you're well and it's fine.

Speaker 1 (01:18:07):
I'll get over it.

Speaker 3 (01:18:08):
But that could be like like I'm no, I'm not
the fair for so my far beat from me. But
because I have a reaction to weakness, sometimes that is
almost inhumane. It's it lacks empathy where it's like no, no.

Speaker 2 (01:18:23):
Tough, like hey, get your Oh it's the same thing.

Speaker 3 (01:18:27):
Yeah, I get like I have that sometimes where it's
like I had to be tough, you better be tough,
like walked ten toes ten toes down.

Speaker 1 (01:18:36):
The crazy shit is is that I'm such an empathetic person,
sometimes overly empathetic, Like I shouldn't have sympathy for this
person's dirt, but I feel bad because he came from
a band. I had a lot of empathy for people.
But something about tripping or being clumsy, it really irks
my soul.

Speaker 3 (01:18:52):
It's interesting, it's terrible.

Speaker 2 (01:18:54):
That's funny.

Speaker 1 (01:18:55):
I say that with shame, not.

Speaker 2 (01:18:56):
P that's funny.

Speaker 3 (01:18:57):
Just see somebody's just like, oh, like common tripping like
a bunch of oranges in the air.

Speaker 1 (01:19:02):
I'm like, what is wrong with.

Speaker 3 (01:19:05):
Lose her?

Speaker 1 (01:19:07):
I'm so I'm so ashamed that. And also a pet
people in mind is people who tried to manipulate well
not just me, but anybody else. Like if you walk
in the room and you try to manipulate somebody in
the room, but it would it would immediately irritate me
about you, like any if I see that type of
especially in a bullying sense, or.

Speaker 2 (01:19:28):
Oh that's me in church?

Speaker 3 (01:19:30):
What do you mean like hearing hearing like a rich
person get up and like talk to like a poor
congregation about Like I get real sensitive to that, Like
I start filtering. I feel very protective at church with
my mom. I'm like, I'm like, what are you saying?
Because she believes all of us, Like what are you
telling her? I get real protective over that. And like,

(01:19:50):
you know, church is a place where a lot of
good happens. I'm not even trying to like just talk
down on it, but there's a lot of manipulation that
happens there, and I get it.

Speaker 2 (01:20:00):
That's where I feel it the most.

Speaker 1 (01:20:01):
Yeah, because you come from a family that your mother lives.

Speaker 3 (01:20:05):
I have a very personal traumatic reason to feel that.
But but that's where I'm like, what are you saying?
Like what do you, Like, I'm very judgmental of because
that person has a lot of power and control. Like,
like you, you're talking to a crowd that believe God
is speaking through you. So like I'm like, careful what

(01:20:25):
you say.

Speaker 2 (01:20:26):
Yeah, I'm on you.

Speaker 3 (01:20:27):
I see, I'm on you.

Speaker 1 (01:20:28):
Yeah, Like that might be part of why you do
what you do.

Speaker 2 (01:20:31):
Yeah a microphone too.

Speaker 1 (01:20:34):
Yeah, yeah, it might be definitely part of your what
you do for a living in real life. What is
one regret that you have?

Speaker 2 (01:20:44):
M hm, huh. I'm not saying how do you at
that party? No, trying to think hmmm, I regret.

Speaker 3 (01:20:59):
That's tough, right, because, like you know, there are things
that you know, I wish I had the courage to
say or confront earlier. I wish I had better protected
my mom. I wish that I were more honest about myself.
But these things all kind of played out how they

(01:21:21):
played out, and dealt with them as I was ready
to deal with them. So I can't call them regrets.
But you had to have to think about that, Like,
what regret that I have. I'm certain it's not helping
someone that I could have helped.

Speaker 1 (01:21:39):
What are you most proud of about yourself?

Speaker 2 (01:21:43):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:21:46):
My ability to change and grow. I'm proud that I
can say I was wrong, like, oh what I was
doing was wrong, Like I'm doing something else now, Like
it's helped my artistry, It's helped me personally, the ability

(01:22:06):
to to to change, to recognize, to accept criticism, to
accept like I am open.

Speaker 1 (01:22:16):
What is the end goal for you? Like what is
the what is the the shining star?

Speaker 4 (01:22:20):
Like the thing that.

Speaker 3 (01:22:21):
You Because Jay is like an artist, like a capital
a artist to me, like he evolved, he changes, takes breaks,
comes back when he has something to say. Because I'm
someone It's part of the reason I'm not like on
social media, because I don't like to speak unless I
have something to say. So I'm very I think words

(01:22:42):
are really really important, so I'm very like precious with words.
I'm very precious about what I write and put out,
Like I like, I had a Twitter account for a
little while and it's just like I'm just like writing.
I'm just like in the car writ like no, like
I value this too much SHM. So I would like
to I would like to consistently mean what I say.

Speaker 1 (01:23:08):
MM.

Speaker 3 (01:23:09):
That's what I want as an artist. I wanna mean
what I say Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:23:13):
So then in real life, what do you hope that
people learn from your life.

Speaker 3 (01:23:20):
I've been trying to put out uh huh, the most
like honest version of myself.

Speaker 2 (01:23:29):
And put out things that I've hidden for so.

Speaker 3 (01:23:32):
Long, and things that I had a reason to hide,
and some things I had no reason to hide. And
I try and put all of that into work. And
I hope people see uh uh. I hope people see
the humanity in me mm and and can recognize a

(01:23:54):
part of themselves in in me in in some way.
I I do wanna be seen, uh finally unafraid of
being seen mm and so yeah, I like for people
to see me and I I'm on a quest for understanding.

Speaker 4 (01:24:14):
That's great, it's.

Speaker 1 (01:24:18):
I can't help to think that you're looking for a
quest for understanding in a time where the world is
probably the least understanding.

Speaker 3 (01:24:25):
Yeah right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:24:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:24:27):
It's a lot of team sports, a lot of battles.
Yeah uh uh, it's not room for the nuance that
comes with being a human being.

Speaker 1 (01:24:38):
Mm.

Speaker 3 (01:24:38):
It's a lot of presenting one side of yourself and
saying that's all of who I am. And that's just
not true if you're a human being. There's always something else,
there's always something We're more complex than that, like and
and as an artist, it's my responsibility to explore that complexity.

Speaker 1 (01:25:00):
Well, I think we see you today, So thank you
for that.

Speaker 3 (01:25:02):
I felt seen, I felt really, I felt really.

Speaker 1 (01:25:05):
I did then do my job. Thank you very very
much for thank you, thank you for trusting me, thank
you for coming, thank.

Speaker 2 (01:25:11):
You for having me.

Speaker 3 (01:25:12):
We're friends now, Oh my god, next party we're dancing together.

Speaker 1 (01:25:20):
Thank you very much, Drug, Carmike, everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:25:24):
Thank you much for husband,

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