May 21, 2020 • 45 mins
On the premiere episode of "Back to Biz with Katie and Boz," co-hosts Katie Couric and Bozoma Saint John set the stage for their forward-looking 10-episode series about how our pandemic present will shape the future of business — from tech and media, to education and sports, to fashion and pop culture. Their first guest is none other than tech and media journalist and podcaster Kara Swisher who offers a big-picture look at the ways the shuttered economy has made Big Tech even bigger — for better and worse. "Any trends that were present have been accelerated and then helped by tech," Kara says. "You could go around from industry to industry. Look at streaming entertainment that people have been using. Look at Netflix — [it's] never had more usage." Katie, Boz and Kara discuss what it means to be an essential worker and why all businesses will have to reassess what "gig work" means. They also talk about the future of education, why TikTok is having more than a moment, and the exciting and hopeful innovations that are bubbling up in tech.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi everyone. I'm Katie Couric and I'm Bozma st. John
and this is Back to Biz with Katie and Bows.
So this is it. It's our first episode of Back
to Biz. We've been talking about it for some time now,
and it's really happening. I'm super jazz to get this
party started. I know me too, and it feels like
(00:22):
it's the perfect time to do it. Um. I'm still
looking forward to all the conversations that we're gonna have here.
You know, we've got ten episodes to interview leaders in business, tech,
public policy, as well as entrepreneurs, pop culture, trailblazers and
just all around huge big thinkers. Well, and we could
really use some big thinkers at this moment in our
(00:43):
nation's history. Bows, and We're gonna be talking to them
about how they're responding to these big societal shifts the
pandemic has brought about, about how they're adjusting to this
new way of life, often not just through adaptation, but
innovation too. In many ways both, I think this has
been a terrible thing, but it's also a time for reassessing, recalibrating,
(01:06):
and in some cases, I think rethinking everything that's right,
that's right, and our first guests I think really sets
the tone for this series as someone who's forward thinking
and innovative and just all around so cool. She's so
in demand, you know, I mean, she's a tech journalist.
Kara Swisher, Kara, alright, I'm here, Yeah, I'm here, I'm
(01:28):
here here. Hold on, Oh are you cranky? I'm not cranky.
I'm tired. I've had days. Let me get my hold
little one sec here you are and the sunglass, the
aviators come on. I mean, I'm gonna sleep during the interview. Wait,
let me be the picture in your Kara is I
think the personification of the modern media Maven and very
(01:52):
good at alliteration too, because bos this woman is everywhere.
She's a columnist for The New York Times. She's founder
and editor at large of the tech site Recode. When
she's not writing, she's podcasting, the co host of the
award winning Pivot podcast. She's the host of Recode Decode,
and she's also cooking up a new podcast for The
(02:14):
New York Times, which is still unnamed right now, that's
set to release this fall. I don't know how she doesn't.
And on top of that, she's a mother of three,
two high schoolers, and a relatively new baby she's quarantining
in Washington, d C. I love Kara. She's such a badass,
and more importantly, bows she thinks I'm a badass. But
(02:35):
I know you got to know Kara recently in one
of your latest gigs, right, yeah, that's right. Well, you
know what, We're about to be a trio of badasses.
I'll tell you that because I've known Kara for some time.
I met her at first when I was the chief
brand officer at Uber and I had just stepped into
a big pile of it, and she wanted me on
(02:55):
stage at Recode, which is our conference. It was September,
and I went in really prepared to face the fire.
You know, I knew she was really going to give
it to me. So I was prepared for Kara, But
you know who I wasn't prepared for her Mama, her mother,
who I met backstage before I even got on stage,
and she gave it to me good. I mean, she
(03:15):
was just giving me all the questions and Kara, Yes,
Kara had to come and break us up. You know,
I think she was probably stealing some of Kara's questions,
so well, I guess the apple doesn't fall far from
the tree, right, Bows, That's exactly right, because I think
Kara is an amazing journalist and she's really feared but
also revered, and that's a tough combination. And we thought
(03:37):
that she was the perfect way to kick off our
debut podcast together. She has her finger on the pulse,
not just a Silicon valley, but I think the business
world in general, and the world of pop culture like
you do, Bows right, and fashion, because you know what,
her affinity for aviators makes a lot more sense. Now,
I'll tell you that. All right, last show or move
(04:00):
be that you loved. Oh god, there's so many um
I think I liked um. Oh gosh. That's while I
was waiting for Top Gun Too, So I don't know
what to say. I love Top Gun to. I was
so excited for the sequel and Wonder Woman too. I
know it sounds crazy. I have a big top Gun anyway,
let's get to it, Kara Swisher. I am super excited
because you are our debut guest on Bound Biz with
(04:24):
Katie and Bows get it, Bows. I Oh my god,
the pandemic that's gotten to Katie. Oh my god, shelf
let me look at your bookshelves for those Emmys and
those Emmys back there on. Just if you Kara, just
just but you would bose know each other already, don't.
(04:46):
How do you guys get to know each other of
all things? Arianna Huffington's introduced us ut at a graduation
she was speaking at in San Francisco for a private
girls school and and she, uh, she was she was
hiring you to run marketing for or to do marketing
for uber Um. And so we met there while Arianna
(05:09):
was addressing the young lady the young rich ladies of
San Francisco essentially, and I think your daughter went there
eventually at some point we're going to do it, but
then never moved up to Sam. Oh. Yeah, anyway, So
we met but at uber and I listened. She had
nothing to do with the disaster that was Uber. She
tried her best. Uh that was sort of got sucked
into a really really toxic situation. I think he came
(05:31):
in post I think post when everything was already had
a downhill exactly. But you know, it's like the I
was telling Katie that you were the first person that
I talked to when I decided to leave er Ah.
Oh that's right. I wrote the story inside. Yeah, you
know interesting. I talked to Francis Free the other day,
who was also another Pride Excuse me the other day
(05:53):
when who was another person who was a Harvard Business
School professor. You know, all these women came in to
try to clean up that mess and and we're not successful.
And of course Dark Coaster Shaw he today had to
lay off I think three thousand people. It's some enormous
number of people that people have been laid off, and
they're closing down some businesses like freight. Um. It was
at the time then everything was going great, and there
(06:13):
was it was a culture problem that was born of
the CEO, Travis Klink and the people he hired, and
trying to turning around a success, turning around a success
into toxicity. And so you were trying to do that,
and to me it was like putting lipstick on I
don't know what on the coronavirus or something. It was
just not good not to make a joke about. But
(06:35):
really you were trying to market something that had a
fundamental issue with its business. And now of course it's
struggling because of real issues of of health and other things. Well,
We're excited to talk to you, Kara because a lot
of the columns you've been writing in the New York
Times or precisely some of the things we want to
address as we go about this quote unquote new normal
(06:59):
or new new future is ray Dalia said, Yeah, that's right,
that's right. Really how how technology has been affected and
how technology can help or in cases when it hurts.
But before we talk about business, like, I know, we
wanted to talk about education. Sure, yes, well, I mean
that's the thing. I mean, we're all adjusting, right. You
mentioned do you have a you know, kids who are
(07:22):
looking towards graduation, et cetera. What what do you think
is going to happen? Um? In terms of college, I
mean virtual college or you thinking of gap years? Like
what what do we do or what does what does
your your child do? I'm leaving it up to him.
He's gotten into two schools and he's gonna be going
to n y U and so of course that's hot
(07:43):
spots Central um, And I don't know. I'm going to
leave it up to him. He every every day is different.
He's like, I don't know if I want to do
school on zoom. I think he's gonna gonna have to
there's gonna be definitely different. It's not gonna be the
freshman experience that that everybody got to have. Um And
so I'm going to leave it up to them. And
although I don't know what schools are going to do
in terms of everybody taking a gap year, of people
(08:04):
take a gap year, that changes all the dynamics of
the school. Um. So I'm going to let him decide.
He's a he's a fine young man, and he will
figure out what he wants. He's definitely handling it better
than most people. Yeah, yeah, but I know that the
You know, it's interesting. There are all kind of creative
solutions that educators are going to create, right, I get
to engage their students. I mean, you said in a
(08:27):
recent column, I know of no parents, including those living
and what are considered good school districts, who are happy
with their children's online classes terrible. So so what happens?
I mean, what are the innovative ways you think that
educators are going to be able to engage I don't
think I think it teaches us that analog learning is
so important. I mean, I think they've been trying with
these classes but they're not engaging at all, and they're
(08:49):
not They're trying. I have friends who are teachers and
they're trying their best. Um, but I think it's very
hard to engage people without the one on one. That's
That's what it shows to me. Like that, it's some
things are not able to be digitized, and this is
one of them. You think education would have gotten a
lot further. Um. I think for adults it's a little better.
Tons of people are taking webinars and classes and learning
(09:11):
to like I don't know, like cut hair, but not
just that, but like play the banjo and those those
work okay because adults can take it. But I think
young kids you really need to engage them on a
one to one level. And I don't know, it just
it makes me think that, like how good are schools really? Right?
And but I think they have to be one on
one and have that social element. Are you surprised, care though,
(09:32):
that schools didn't adapt more? You know, you have the
con Academy. You would think that they would be a
little more forward thinking about digital learning in general and
perhaps come up with ways to make it more engaging
and more effective. I guess yeah, But think about the
equipment you need if you want to do VR, that
would be the solution. Right now, First of all, a
lot of kids are getting completely lost. Your talking about
(09:54):
digital divide. It's crazy. It's crazy, like not having internet access,
not having a great device, not if they're just not
going to school, they're not, which is even worse. You know,
commit now, if you get into the VR area, the equipment,
you know, it's just not there. It's just not there,
and it's not it's pricey, it's it doesn't work that well,
that would be the I suppose the thing. But what
what does How do you do an engaged curriculum on
(10:17):
a screen? You know, you can do it with entertainment,
you can do it with chat. But I don't think
it translates necessarily because they've been working on educational stuff
for a long time online and they thought it was
gonna take over everything, and I just I just don't
I don't know. Well, let's talk about business. Um, obviously
this has upended everything, so we're going to break it down. First,
Big tech, your confident places I read like Apple, Facebook,
(10:41):
and of course Amazon are going to survive. And I
guess in the case of Amazon, even thrive. They're all
because I think you talked about how they were larded.
I like that word you used in your column, larded
with enough cash. So what they're too big to hail? Uh,
they're not too they're not too big to all. They're
too rich to fail. Why should they fail? They have
so much money, Like that's the the issue. They have
(11:03):
all this money. Some of them are doing rather well,
like the Amazon's stock is really is doing really well
because they're providing services right now and everyone else can't
keep up. That's the real issue. Is that already, except
it's already accelerating trends that have started to happen. Retail
has already been under duress from companies like mostly Amazon essentially,
So now it's not they're not under duress. They're under
(11:24):
duressed and they've been closed and they're financially at a disadvantage,
and they're not getting VC money. They're not getting like
you know, the Delhi or any stores are not getting that.
And so so the big companies, not just Amazon, by
the Walmart is going to be doing really well because
you can go in a Walmarts now an essential store,
but they also sell like as Stephanie rule just point
out surfboards, like, so, what happens to the surfboard guy? Right?
(11:46):
He can't. You know, everybody gets used to and doing
well in this time here, and they don't have these
cushions that these tech companies have. They don't have this
technology that the tech companies have to really figure it out.
And so say your Google and Facebook and advertise thing,
they're only going to get stronger while everybody else look
at their layoffs and all the media companies. Google has
maybe a little bit of a downturn in the advertising.
(12:07):
But when this is over, where are people going to go?
Google and Facebook? Which is why I assume the government's investigating. Well,
also where's the government going to go to get cash?
If you also write, they're coming after those big, big industries,
those big companies because they are so rich and they're
going to be paying for a lot of the stuff
that we need, right exactly, They're gonna be the companies
making money. And so the issue is there's no how
(12:30):
can you innovate and how can you keep small businesses
alive in this environment. I don't think the government is
doing a very good job of it. As you know,
so many stories I mean the amount of stories of
misuse of funds there's going to be in newspapers for
for for years to come. Um and And I think
the issue is that these companies they're not just rich.
They're rich. There are they can put. Look at all
(12:51):
the tech companies like Twitter told his companies employees just
to stay home forever. You know, if you want to Google,
they can work from home. Facebook they can work for home.
It's not ideal, but they certainly have environments where that
doesn't hinder their businesses. Big tech had recently been so
scrutinized for monopolies, for uh tech addiction, for misinformation and
(13:15):
all kinds of things. Now they're bigger fish to fry.
So they're probably breathing a bit of a sigh of
relief on that front too, aren't they. Although you know,
Bill Bill bar just was talking about that. There's two
stories in the journal, and I think there are times
about the Google being the case against Google moving forward,
the investigation Againstchoogle moving forward, and so this is an
advertising and so I think it's that was a little
(13:36):
bit of a shot across the bout, like we haven't forgotten.
I think the issue is there's less appetite in legislative
areas to do like privacy bill. You know, when they're
doing these other things, they can't agree on lunch there,
they can't agree. They can't agree on pandemic relief right,
Like think about it, Like they're not going to agree
on what privacy is. Now that's said. Look, you have
like Elizabeth Warren and Congresswomen up a see is working
(14:00):
on this anti merger buil during the pandemic. You've got
Josh Holly over on the right working with Elizabeth Warren
on the bigness of big text. So there are a
lot of interesting coalitions forming around that. And they've used
the pandemic to redeem themselves. You know, we're not we
were we we got rid of those anti vaxers, We
did this, we stopped misinformation about that. It only underscores
(14:23):
that they can do it. And so when it comes
to political stuff they don't do it. But here they've
done it. So I think they're using it as a
bid for um, maybe we're not so bad. But even
if they do good, does something, they're not too big
and I think that that will be their issue going forward. So,
I mean, you have been talking about some of these
darlings of Silicon Valley, but they're they're facing challenges too.
(14:44):
You know, we talked about Uber a little bit, um Airbnb. There,
there's so many who are facing challenges, and obviously, as
a marketer, i'd love to talk about, you know, perception,
brand perception. What is happening in press that affects those businesses.
What are your thoughts? Well, I think of the Uber ads,
they're I'm glad you're not driving. I'm glad you It's
(15:04):
like it's like sort of Wendy saying I'm glad you're
not eating and eating it's not such a hot thing.
I was fascinating, you know, there was that whole thing
together of all the words they use. Now, Yeah, we're
here to help family, hope, stay home, stay safe, We're
here for you, We're here for you. Um. I was
really fascinated by the Uber ones with the tinkling music.
(15:25):
I'm not sure if it worked that I liked them
any better. I don't know why they spent money on
it telling me not to get in a car. I
don't know what did you think? Well, it's it's it's
actually funny because there are so many different ways to
present the same idea, right, right, And and so what
brands need to do is figure out actually how to
just take that idea of comfort and make it sound
(15:47):
like it's coming from them, but not also destroy your business,
you know, on top of it. Right, But what's the
use of a marketing ad that says, please don't get
in a car if you're a car rental, you know,
a car sharing company. I just don't. I don't get it.
I don't get it. I was sort of so I
almost wrote dark because you're having was like, okay, alright,
like please please don't do what we do. I also
feel like there's so many of those ads going on now,
(16:09):
you guys, they all kind of blur together. For me.
Of course, they all wore my herd and I'm like, yeah,
but I can't remember who's doing what. They all start
to feel pretty duplicative to me, and and then I
start feeling like you're just jumping on this band but
kind of get turned off. Yeah, but that's the whole point,
(16:29):
is that they should be melding and molding their conversation
in this way, but affecting their own business. You know.
So if I would love an add that this sucks,
we had to laid people off and you're not getting
in cars like, hey, come back to us when things
are better, we'll give you. Everyone gets a mask or
something that's that's more helpful for me what I don't know.
(16:50):
I don't know. It's interesting that that uber is advertising.
I didn't see one from Airbnb, which of course is
really talk about the company that's really terrific, has a
great product, and it's really strained. Every aspect of their
business was has set to go public. I mean, can
you I'm interviewing Brian Chowsky later this week about that.
But it's just like that one is really like what
do you do? There's nothing to be said except you're
(17:12):
in the wrong business at this moment in time. I
think their eventually people will be fine. They'll be a vaccine.
People will go back to it because it's a good product,
right like you have the differential between the good products.
It's just because of this particular pandemic and the actual
structural things those there's not cyclical, they're sort of pandemical.
And then there's things like gyms that you may not
go back to. Our movie theaters is a really good thing.
(17:34):
Movie theaters are already on the down swing, right except
for like an Alamo drafthouse that had an experiential kind
of element to it, and so movie theaters are already
on the downtown. That's why you're seeing all these stories
whether Amazon is going to buy a MC or Disney
would buy one of them, because they don't matter anymore,
like they don't there there. It's it's an opportunity for
those companies and it's a business that people stopped doing.
(17:56):
And so that's the issue. Are you a structural problem?
You have a structural problem. More people aren't doing the
same thing with with retail like there was just was
a specialties. Specialties was a fifties store. Is not a
huge business, but they have a lot in San Francisco.
It started in San Francisco, great sandwich store. It was
a great chain. It was doing great. It's closing down.
It doesn't have the financial resources to stay in business.
And it doesn't know when people are going to be
(18:18):
The whole structural change of people being at the office.
It's not just for the pandemic. People are going to
be going to the office as much and therefore the
businesses all around it, parking garages, delis things like that
they're all going to be impacted, and so I think
people don't think about that the community around these companies
and how much they'll be hurting. But let's just go
(18:40):
through some other sectors. Kara, Sure. What about the future
of airlines and travel and the whole leisure kind of
vacation industry. Well, I'm always fascinated by There was a
story that that cruises have open and there have never
been more full, like right, everyone's dying to it. So
there is an element of people who take cruises are
going to take cruises, and they've got to just put
in practices into ice that are going to keep people safer.
(19:02):
Because you know, in this whole thing, the whole the
whole idea of what's happened here is analog has struck
back pretty hard, and we realize how much analog stuff
we do. I don't think people are suddenly not going
to be on planes. There's just gonna be different practices
going on planes and may be much more aware of things.
And the person who was on your plane that was
always marrying a mask isn't weird anymore, right, And maybe
they'll hand them out and they'll have Jet Blue on
(19:23):
the front or whatever the heck they'll have. But I
think it's like if if you were I don't know
if you're old in a buzz, but I know Katie
and I are. When we used to go. When I
was a kid, we used to go through airports right
to the gate if there was no security. Like I
was telling my kid that, I was trying to make
them feel better. Of course it didn't about not being
in school. I was like, oh, well we used to go.
Things change and they don't go back, and so we
(19:45):
had security. Used to walk through the gates. Then we
had a level of security. Now we have enormous security.
Over time, it's the same thing with it. It's going
to be a different experience and everyone will adjust to it.
You'll get on later, you'll get on. It'll be slower,
you'll have masks, there might be you know, all kinds
of things. Now. Interestingly, airlines, they flow the air pretty
quickly in those things, so I think people will feel better.
(20:08):
We'll go back to that much quicker than you think.
Can I just mention one thing you guys on airlines
while we're on this topic, I've heard about these flights
where they're packed in like sardines, and I'm like, what
what is going on here? Why aren't they taking this
more seriously? And yes, I've heard about the air recirculating too,
but it seems to me that you're online, they're not
(20:30):
taking proper precautions. What is that all about? If they
want to get people back? Right? So they so that
because these loads, when they load these airlines, they should
have these middle seats empty. Even then though you know
what I mean, like you can do all you want,
there's people in an enclosed space, and this is like, hello,
hello virus, that kind of thing, even when there's just
a regular virus or a cold, everybody get Yet you've
been on lots of planes, you know that. And so
(20:52):
I think it'll be really interesting to see how they're
going to play it. I think probably people will go
back to it's just at a different level and they
can find different reasons not to fly. And again, digital
means have made it so you don't have to, Like
I was talking to a big broadcast network. You work
for all of them? Is that correct? Okay, thank goodness, Okay,
that wasn't that one, but it was one of the
(21:13):
ones you work for, Katie, And they were talking about
those those those upfronts that they would go to and stuff.
And this guy was like, Oh, we'd pay a lot
of money. We fly first class, we get in the
town cars, we go to the hotels. We've had the dinners.
You've been to a million of those. And he's like,
we did it all in two hours on the phone,
like the decisions that needed to be made, and so
why would we do it that way again? Why would
(21:33):
we spend all that money again? I mean, it's like
the three martini lunch, yeah, right, and they that stopped
and it was replaced by something else, And so I
think that people will begin to reconsider. If you're not
a business person, you're not reconsidering all costs and thinking
about what you can digitize, you're not really good business person.
Yeah yeah, I mean, but speaking of the three martini lunch,
what happens to restaurants? You know, what happens to that
(21:56):
dining experience even after you think if Yeah, because I
think speaking of Uber, one of the bright spots has
been Uber eats, right, and so what and they're talking
there was rumors of them being bought buying Grubhub. Well,
they would have of the delivery market in the United States.
I'm not counting New York because there's so much delivery
in New York and that's sort of a it's already
a system in place at most restaurants, but you know,
(22:19):
they'd have their I think George ash would have, Uber
would have that's a crazy amount of control over the market, right,
So people like that, like the delivery experience. If they that,
they get around and get used to it. And so
even if a small portion of it moves from going
to a restaurant to using these availing themselves, that really
can hit these restaurants hard. Um And and you know
(22:41):
you talked to any restaurant person, this was already a problem.
These delivery fees that these companies take thirty off the top,
this is gonna kill them. Same thing with grocery stores.
And if the Amazon can deliver, if only a small
amount of people now like delivery by by Amazon, they're
gonna use it. People. People start to get used to things,
and so once it's it's I hate to say it,
(23:02):
but it's been a real marketing event for things like streaming,
like Disney streaming or um or anything. It's been a
marketing event for for for a lot of these people this,
people get introduced to the product. I think. I think
the restaurant business, though care has got to come back. People,
I mean, their social lives revolve around meeting friends at restaurants.
Maybe not right away, but don't you think they're gonna
(23:25):
come back. I don't I think it's gonna be. It's
it's already been a try. Same thing with retail. I
mean certain retails certainly, but in general that any trends
that were present are accelerated. And that's what you have
to think about it. If it's accelerated, it's it's act
and then helped by tech, you're really you're really You
could go around from industry to industry and look at
(23:46):
this streaming entertainment like people have been using these look
at Netflix never been more useful and people never been
bigger usage. Now I think people are going to stay
in those zones. And they were already doing home theaters,
they were already the technology availed itself getting these screens
and the ease of use and stuff like that. And
so I do like Disney launching the streaming platform and
speaking which Kevin Marriage is left to go to TikTok
(24:09):
to b CEO of TikTok. Those kind of things are
going to do really well because this this is stuff
has people have gotten used to and are trying now.
Not everything's gonna work. You saw Quimby. I was going
to say, what happened to Quimby. I mean, we'll see,
We'll see. It's a lot of money spent. It's certainly
they clicked a hundred and thirty billion dollars. Uh, it's
a lot of money. And it's a question they were
(24:31):
hoping for commuters, right, people were on. So that's the
issue is that I don't think some of the product
isn't good, and I think some of the product is
quite good. And it's an interesting idea. It's just there's
a lot of options out there. Well, let's talk about TikTok. Yeah. Yeah,
because my daughter, I mean almost eleven year old, she
has an account. She posts a video. Hell, I don't know,
(24:51):
a hundred times a day she's begging me to join.
I've seen so many of those videos, you know, these
not Instagram, this is TikTok. This is is TikTok. This
is TikTok, and she loves it, you know. But also,
I mean we've seen other platforms that are doing so well,
like Zoom. You know, we've been thinking about that and
how much that's increase in use. So what about those
(25:12):
platforms is as ways to recover maybe some of the
central company, and I think it's going to fall off
once this is over. I don't think Zoom is good,
and Zoom was under stress because of the privacy and security.
I don't know if you've got zoom bomb, but I
certainly did. I wanted to be zoom. Let me just
tell you you do not want to be zoom Bo.
Trust me. It was de stends what they're bombing me.
(25:33):
They're never bombing was good good porns. It's always real, dirty,
gross porn. Okay, you're right, it's not good. We don't
want that. We don't want you know, you have to
select your porn, Katie, as you know, as if a
heavy user of porn. I mean you have to choose
it and to promise. Okay, anyway, let's are we too
(25:54):
old to get on TikTok Yes? No, you're wrong, Yes, Okay,
you give the yes because it's not wrong. They're completely wrong.
Tell me why, God, it's it's like when it's like
when all the adults got on Facebook and now because
it's so the algorithms are so good, you get the
(26:14):
things you want to get, and so I don't think
it's quite like that. I don't think it's so apparent
they use algorithmic selections so well compared to everybody else,
knowing what you want and feeding you what you want
and so you can stay in your little zones. What
I think is interesting. I've interviewed a lot of people
and I think they did want podcast with Gary Vayinner Check,
and a lot of business people are trying out TikTok
(26:35):
and so is. There was a great story in the
time to say about a vegan chef who was an
actress who was sort of a didn't do very well
as an actress and now has been doing these lovely
videos on TikTok and now she's a big hit shaded
like so like that. You see how it looks real thin.
Now you've got a few strips, but you know what
you want more than that? Do that because there should
(26:55):
be business. You're gonna use some liquid smokes, you know.
And look at Sarah Cooper, who's a razing she's a
she's a comic. She left Google. I cod passed with
her when she left Google to be a comic a
long time ago. And now she does the Trump She
does the Trump voice with her acting it out. It's
wonderful and she's become like a real sensation. I think
she's going to parlay that into something there because she's
(27:16):
so talented. Not only that, but Kara there was also
a Washington Post reporter who's doing critical reporting. He's kind
of young, and he's getting younger people. He's educating them,
making them more knowledgeable, and really engaging them. Hello, old
have you recently downloaded the app TikTok but you're not
quite sure what it's for? Well, I'm here with a
self proclaimed expert on TikTok, David Jorgensen. Dave, tell us
(27:38):
what TikTok is. It's like a viral video app. And
what is the for you page? It's kind of like
your news feed. You're probably on it right now. And
tell me why is the Washington Post on TikTok? So
I'm gonna go with Karen on this post. I think
that business ignore TikTok at their own peril, and I
think it's you know, I'm a big believer in you
(28:01):
just have to be on as many platforms as you can.
Mass media is now an oxymoron, and you just have
to consider aggregate viewers, aggregate listeners, you know. And I
think Kara has done an incredible job at that. Yeah,
I don't think you have TikTok all the time now
after I did this interview with Cary Bynatrick, because he's
doing advice, Like if you you could, like, there's no
real there's there should be a really important business element
(28:23):
giving business advice on TikTok. It's a much more flexible
platform than in Instagram, which is sort of seen as entertainment. Right,
TikTok is not yet formed, and so I could do
a lot of things. You're listening to the debut episode
of Back to Biz with Katie and Bows. When we return,
Kara talks about how we all have to view essential
(28:44):
workers in an entirely new light. You're listening to Back
to Biz with Katie and Those. Let's get back to it.
Let's return to our conversation with Kara Swisher. Of all
(29:07):
things that this has shown is how many people are exposed,
especially because of the gig economy, which was fueled by
tech companies like Uber everybody, all of them use use contractors.
And I think I had a really good podcast with
Nicole Hannah Jones, who is who who did the sixteen
nineteen projects. She writes about inequality for The New York Times,
which was all about this idea we call them essential
(29:28):
workers now when in fact, before this, we treated them
as if they were not essential, not in essential in
terms of how we paid them, or kind of healthcare
or any kind of benefits. They're sacrificial workers. And and
it creates this sort of with New York magazine called
Rich Corona, Poor Corona. Right, there's these lords and the serfs,
and we're seeing that, we're seeing that in real time
(29:49):
of people who are not protected, and we've got to
really start to think hard about focus on people, not corporations.
And well, I guess the question is you talked all
these big mockers. I mean, do you think they have
the stomach and the will to say, we're gonna start
treating these essential workers better. You have had that nightmare
story for Amazon. You know, Walmart workers didn't get mass
(30:11):
for the longest time. I mean, do you think there's
going to be a real shift in attitude. Well, look
at that Amazon story was interesting because one of the
stories I read was like they happened after Jess Bezos
saw it and visited warehouse, not until then. So I
don't think they're in the presence of mind to think
of these workers as anything but sacrificial. They're not. They
haven't they do. The idea of what an employee is
(30:32):
has to change right very drastically, because in this economy,
a lot of people are contractors, and so what is
an employee? Do they how do they get benefits? How
do they get child childcare? Look at look at the
issues around childcare right now. Anyone who has a young kids,
no matter what they're they're monetary wealth right now unless
you can force someone to work for you and fly
(30:53):
them to I don't know, kirk Turks and cages wherever
you live. Everyone is now understands the childcare crisis in
this country because they don't have childcare all of a sudden.
And I think that's the kind of thing we have
to think about these workers, is that they're not paid enough.
They don't they aren't able to make a living wage,
and we're taking we're feeling it just a tiny bit
in in inconvenient ways. Yeah, but speaking of the employees,
(31:15):
you know, this is such an interesting topic around you know,
sacrificial workers. By the way, that just blew my mind
with I love it. A sacrificial worker. I'm going to
use that from now on because that is absolutely the
truth and gets the center of it. Um. But you've
talked about, you know, w f H working from home, right,
(31:36):
and um, what that's going to be like? So what
do you think of that? I mean, what what happens?
Because Twitter, right just announced that people can work from home,
like indefinitely. What happens? How does that affect out? A
lot of people can't work from home. They can't they
have analog jobs, people who work for the m T
A say, or people who you know, public transit, anyone
(31:56):
who works delivery. Lots of people can't work from home,
and so what are we gonna do for those people?
You know, it's very it's easy for people knowledge workers
to do this, you know, so Twitter could like doesn't
matter where they are doing their coding, It doesn't that
they have they're not connection in their computer. They're just
fine like that kind of thing. And so what we've
got to think about that this country is is more
(32:17):
than just knowledge or else we make everyone a knowledge worker,
which isn't going to have right, you know. I mean
it's a really interesting questions. How do we how do
you work from home? And we do it in such
a way that people can have good childcare, good healthcare,
um and and a good working wage. I mean when
they say they're going to give two more dollars to
people for you know, combat pay, essentially, it's sort of
(32:38):
that it's so insulting to me, you know what I mean,
Like or teachers, how are they going to deal with
not having been trained in technology and now having to
teach courses and make them interesting. They're just sort of
here's a zoom link, good luck, Like what like, excuse me?
This is how we're educating our kids. And so I
think I think we have to have a real public
private partnership on this stuff because this administrations has been
(33:01):
incompetent in every aspect. You can't I can't imagine they're
thinking for the future of like what do we do next,
you know, or how do we return? Well, who are
you impressed by? I mean, if we ever needed some
leader great leaders and and thoughtful leaders and thought leaders
and all of the above, it's now. So who do
you think is providing that kind of leadership, whether it's
(33:22):
in the in the world of tech or outside of
tech carecra Well, you know, there's different people that have
different voices. You know, Look, you can't help but someone
who was who I've been very tough on over the
many years of Bill Gates, but I think they've been
He's been really prescient about this thing and what are
we going to do next around healthcare? And his wife
Melinda Gates is really interesting. I think I'm just thinking
(33:42):
tech leaders. I think Mark bennie Off has been one
of the most outspoken about the idea of compassionate capitalism
and how to get there and how you have to
you have to figure out a new ways of treating workers,
um and creatively educating them and creatively caring for them.
I think that he's talked about a lot of stuff. Um.
You know, there's some politicians you can't help but admire.
Elizabeth Warren In terms of some of them, I think
(34:04):
she's the only politician I'll tell you a big tech
is nervous about the idea of vice president. Elizabeth Warren
has got them sweating because you know, she's she's super
thoughtful about what we need to do, and she's been
talking about this issue for the plight of workers and
the average person for a long time. Um, and even
even the Medicare for All debate, like that may not
(34:24):
be like all of a sudden like oh yeah, maybe
so um and you know not everyone's going to get
this not you know that. I do see the push
pull of people wanting to get back to work. Of
course they think I like not that having stores closed.
They people like not working. I just think it's this
push pull of what average citizens have to realize they
have to sacrifice, and it's something Americans, the twitchy American
(34:47):
electric doesn't like to do. When we come back, Kara
Swisher finds a positive note for us to end on.
Thank goodness you're listening to Back to Biz with Katie
and Boats. And before we finished our conversation with Kara,
(35:10):
we asked her for the inside scoop on what tech
innovations were really impressing her right now. Well, I think
two areas are really big and I've written about them.
One is climate change tech. I think there's some This
is an area we're going to have talk about the
next crisis we're gonna face. Climate change is an ongoing
crisis that we have to figure out, and technology has
to play a big part in it. Not just getting
rid of a carbon in the atmosphere, because that's just
(35:31):
cleaning trash, right, that's just so. What how can we
make food? Like some of the food tech stuff is
really interesting, you know, how we make food available, healthy
food with less a tax on planet. Some of the
autonomous car stuff is really great. I visited a couple
of companies right before this actually that I was really
heartened by, like some of the stuff that's happening there
and the idea of of saving energy in that way. Um,
(35:55):
some of the stuff around energy is cool, Like how
we can build homes like the way we build homes
right know as artisanal, it's ridiculous waste of all kinds
of them that it contributes enormous amounts to greenhouse gases.
Construction does so? Or what are we gonna do with
if we're not going to have cars like I talked
about not or if we're not going to have so
many commercial office businesses, maybe we could turn them into
(36:16):
homes so people could live more affordably. Like there's all
kinds of like like there's a great book by Brad Smith,
he's the president of Microsoft, of all people, Microsoft used
to which used to be sort of the evil Empire.
He's written amazing book called Tools and Weapons and the
same thing. It's about tech. But it can neither be
a it's like a knife. It can be a tool
or a weapon. Which one do we want to use
it for? And I think that's like there's all these
(36:38):
kind of stuff that we can take and start to
think about and what's a better way of doing it?
And I have to say all and if you want
out a positive I think young people really do get this.
What younger people do. My son is my son, Like
he calms me down so much. He gets it, He
understands it. I don't think he's particularly one way. He's
just like, just take a second, like we can figure
(37:00):
this out. Like they're much more. They don't. They're not cynical,
and yet they do. I think I think they're frustrated
with all them We've given them a terrible future with
all this debt we've just piled on right now. Um,
there's no choice here unfortunately, But but I think and
there's who can say viruses virus, like there's nothing to
be done about something like this um But I think
(37:21):
they feels that they're much more I don't want to
say hopeful, but they're more pragmatic about things. And I
feel like whenever I talk to young people, I feel
much better about the world because I think they've grown
up in this tech environment. They see it for what
it is, and they're not fool the way we are,
and and it doesn't panic them. It doesn't you know,
(37:41):
it doesn't upset them quite as much, and they're not afraid,
I think, to get their opinions sometimes I have to
say without portfolio, but I think they they feel very
liberated to say what's wrong too. Sometimes our embarrassment because
I feel like we have done a really shit each
job and a lot of departments. But I love the
(38:02):
fact that they they care so much and they let
you know they care and what they're going to do
about it, And I think it's really refreshing to do.
You find that bows as well? Yeah, I mean, I
think that there's so much to be said for this
coming sort of generation right there, innovating in a way
that we never had to, or generations before them really
(38:22):
haven't had to innovate in this way. Certainly there have been,
you know, terrible moments in history where generations have had
to overcome what their parents did. But you know, even
talking about Karay, your son, you know, going off to
college and then coming out of it, you know, what
work is he going to do? How is he going
to do it? If he's not stressed out about it,
he's feeling hopeful about what will become. I just think
(38:44):
it's a very positive way to look at the future
because although we've saddled them with perhaps what is a
really detrimental, horrible burden. Uh, if he's hopeful, that makes
me hopeful. Well. Also, you have to have a historical perspective,
and I think I just did a great podcast John Meetschim,
who has written lots of loves of people. He's amazing
And one of the things that I think we have
(39:06):
lost historical sense in the way our society is built
so so tech forward and so digital forward, and that
like someone the other day was, you know, this is
just terrible. I'm like, well, slavery was terrible, the Civil
War was terrible, the Whiskey Rebellion was terrible. McCarthyism was
there on the Salem, which trouser like, we have an
ability to overcome things. It's just my only worry is
(39:27):
that because we're so jacked into the tech system that
it's taken over our brains in that addictive way. And
it's really the communications platforms are so invasive and toxic
that it may be the things that's pushed us over
the edge. But we've overcome so much horrible history and
for for lots of people and reached for some really
(39:48):
big goals like them. I was watching for some reason,
I was watching the speech that Kennedy gave about the
moon landing, and I was like, oh, remember that was great,
Like there we can the minute we have a leader
that's like that, I think it appeals to our best
nature and it pulls us away from from all of this. Well,
maybe we just need to get out of the way, Yeah,
or just just let people. I'll end on. I'll lend
(40:12):
you a happy note. I live in this neighborhood in
DC right now with my kids in Shaw And one
thing that's great if you walk around a city at
least I don't know what it's like in the suburbs.
Everyone's on their porches talking to each other. It's really
people are sick of the screens, like they've gotten outside.
They and and this you just go by and meet.
I've met, I know all my neighbors now, which is incredible,
(40:33):
which I which I've moved into a new house, but
I did. I would have taken me forever, would have
been closed inside. And there was this family across right
on the corner for me, and they were all outside
doing the electric slide of all things. And I was
like the electric slide that these kids were loving it.
They there's little kids in name of course, Like I
was like, this is an awful dance, but it's not.
(40:54):
It's not. It's a great dance, and you know. And
they moved to the macarena and it was like it
was is a lovely night and I was like, oh, okay,
you can be like this, you know what I mean.
There was a there was a real sense of community
that was had been lost and I'd forgotten about. And
I thought that was I hope you, I hope you
have video of yourself doing the macarina. I did not.
I was socially distanced and I am I could not
(41:16):
do the electric slide to this day, I tried't no, no,
I can't talk. I think I want some try to
teach you to do the body role. So we made
I well, we're going to be successful in electric slide. No,
that's not happening. I I will do it so badly
you'll be like I cannot believe someone dances quite so bad.
(41:39):
It's really depressing. And I have to learn to dance
because I'm getting married again. I think about hope over experience,
um and uh, and it's a triumph of hope over SCE.
And my my girlfriend is an amazing m She does
tango and she's like, if you know, dance on our
freaking wedding, I'm going to divorce you right afterwards. And
I was like, how, I've got to learn to dance.
So I'm going to get onto YouTube and learn how
(42:01):
to dance. It's all right, but we can. We can
do a zoom and bows and I can teach you
because I'm a pretty good dancer too. I've seen you.
You get down, Katie, correct, you take down blow like
I saw one picture of you. I was like, girl,
what's happened there? Jesus stripes? I dropped it like like
it's hot, you drop it like it's what? Oh it
(42:24):
is hot, Katie? What can you say? It was hot
to start with, it remains hot, it will always be
with Katie Kirk, Kara, thank you for doing this fun? Yeah,
Who's who's next? Who are you having up? What is
what is this? What are you trying to do? Find hope? Right,
We're just we're just talking too smart forward looking people
(42:46):
who were you know, thoughtful and interesting and fun to
talk to you? But I would tell you, but then
I'd have to kill you. Karen Carol. Well, good, that's
a good discussion to have because we can, we can
change things for the better and get rid of the
shitty things for sure us that thanks, thank you, thank you.
Well that was it the very first episode back to
(43:09):
Biz with me Katie and me. So bos what did
you think? Oh my goodness, I'm about to pop the champagne.
That was fun and we're gonna do ten. So there's
a lot more to come. What we're talking to, CEOs, entrepreneurs,
political leaders, cultural trailblazers, gosh, and so many more. So
stay tuned, everybody. The next one will be coming the
(43:30):
first week of June, and new episodes land every Thursday
after that you can find Back to Biz episodes in
the Next Question feed or by searching Apple podcast, the
I Heart Radio app, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows, and if you like what you've heard, spread
the word. Let us know. Come find us on social media.
(43:51):
We're on Instagram and Twitter and TikTok. What do you think, bos,
Are you going to do it? Oh? Hell no, I'm
not getting on TikTok. They can find you on TikTok.
I might do TikTok. I'm an early adapter woman, so
you might find me doing a few very strange dances.
So tell Lael your daughter. She's got to join me
(44:11):
and follow me at least on TikTok. So I have
somebody following me best. All right, Well, the next show
will be Katie and Leel. Okay. Meanwhile, I'm Katie Curik
and I'm Bozma St. John and this is Back to
Biz with Katie and Bows. Thanks for listening, everybody, Okay bye.
(44:38):
Back to Biz with Katie and Bows is a production
of I Heart Radio and Katie Currik Media. The executive
producers are Katie Currik, Bozma St. John, and Courtney Litz.
The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. The associate producers are
Derek Clements, Eliza Costas, and Emily Pinto. Editing by Derrek
Clements and Lauren Hansen, Mixing by Derrek Clements. Special thanks
(45:00):
to Adriana Fasio. For more information about today's episode, go
to Katie kirk dot com. You can also follow Katie
Kuric and bosmas st John on Twitter and Instagram. For
more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I Heart
Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows
Hi everyone. I'm Katie Couric and I'm Bozma st. John
and this is Back to Biz with Katie and Bows.
So this is it. It's our first episode of Back
to Biz. We've been talking about it for some time now,
and it's really happening. I'm super jazz to get this
party started. I know me too, and it feels like
(00:22):
it's the perfect time to do it. Um. I'm still
looking forward to all the conversations that we're gonna have here.
You know, we've got ten episodes to interview leaders in business, tech,
public policy, as well as entrepreneurs, pop culture, trailblazers and
just all around huge big thinkers. Well, and we could
really use some big thinkers at this moment in our
(00:43):
nation's history. Bows, and We're gonna be talking to them
about how they're responding to these big societal shifts the
pandemic has brought about, about how they're adjusting to this
new way of life, often not just through adaptation, but
innovation too. In many ways both, I think this has
been a terrible thing, but it's also a time for reassessing, recalibrating,
(01:06):
and in some cases, I think rethinking everything that's right,
that's right, and our first guests I think really sets
the tone for this series as someone who's forward thinking
and innovative and just all around so cool. She's so
in demand, you know, I mean, she's a tech journalist.
Kara Swisher, Kara, alright, I'm here, Yeah, I'm here, I'm
(01:28):
here here. Hold on, Oh are you cranky? I'm not cranky.
I'm tired. I've had days. Let me get my hold
little one sec here you are and the sunglass, the
aviators come on. I mean, I'm gonna sleep during the interview. Wait,
let me be the picture in your Kara is I
think the personification of the modern media Maven and very
(01:52):
good at alliteration too, because bos this woman is everywhere.
She's a columnist for The New York Times. She's founder
and editor at large of the tech site Recode. When
she's not writing, she's podcasting, the co host of the
award winning Pivot podcast. She's the host of Recode Decode,
and she's also cooking up a new podcast for The
(02:14):
New York Times, which is still unnamed right now, that's
set to release this fall. I don't know how she doesn't.
And on top of that, she's a mother of three,
two high schoolers, and a relatively new baby she's quarantining
in Washington, d C. I love Kara. She's such a badass,
and more importantly, bows she thinks I'm a badass. But
(02:35):
I know you got to know Kara recently in one
of your latest gigs, right, yeah, that's right. Well, you
know what, We're about to be a trio of badasses.
I'll tell you that because I've known Kara for some time.
I met her at first when I was the chief
brand officer at Uber and I had just stepped into
a big pile of it, and she wanted me on
(02:55):
stage at Recode, which is our conference. It was September,
and I went in really prepared to face the fire.
You know, I knew she was really going to give
it to me. So I was prepared for Kara, But
you know who I wasn't prepared for her Mama, her mother,
who I met backstage before I even got on stage,
and she gave it to me good. I mean, she
(03:15):
was just giving me all the questions and Kara, Yes,
Kara had to come and break us up. You know,
I think she was probably stealing some of Kara's questions,
so well, I guess the apple doesn't fall far from
the tree, right, Bows, That's exactly right, because I think
Kara is an amazing journalist and she's really feared but
also revered, and that's a tough combination. And we thought
(03:37):
that she was the perfect way to kick off our
debut podcast together. She has her finger on the pulse,
not just a Silicon valley, but I think the business
world in general, and the world of pop culture like
you do, Bows right, and fashion, because you know what,
her affinity for aviators makes a lot more sense. Now,
I'll tell you that. All right, last show or move
(04:00):
be that you loved. Oh god, there's so many um
I think I liked um. Oh gosh. That's while I
was waiting for Top Gun Too, So I don't know
what to say. I love Top Gun to. I was
so excited for the sequel and Wonder Woman too. I
know it sounds crazy. I have a big top Gun anyway,
let's get to it, Kara Swisher. I am super excited
because you are our debut guest on Bound Biz with
(04:24):
Katie and Bows get it, Bows. I Oh my god,
the pandemic that's gotten to Katie. Oh my god, shelf
let me look at your bookshelves for those Emmys and
those Emmys back there on. Just if you Kara, just
just but you would bose know each other already, don't.
(04:46):
How do you guys get to know each other of
all things? Arianna Huffington's introduced us ut at a graduation
she was speaking at in San Francisco for a private
girls school and and she, uh, she was she was
hiring you to run marketing for or to do marketing
for uber Um. And so we met there while Arianna
(05:09):
was addressing the young lady the young rich ladies of
San Francisco essentially, and I think your daughter went there
eventually at some point we're going to do it, but
then never moved up to Sam. Oh. Yeah, anyway, So
we met but at uber and I listened. She had
nothing to do with the disaster that was Uber. She
tried her best. Uh that was sort of got sucked
into a really really toxic situation. I think he came
(05:31):
in post I think post when everything was already had
a downhill exactly. But you know, it's like the I
was telling Katie that you were the first person that
I talked to when I decided to leave er Ah.
Oh that's right. I wrote the story inside. Yeah, you
know interesting. I talked to Francis Free the other day,
who was also another Pride Excuse me the other day
(05:53):
when who was another person who was a Harvard Business
School professor. You know, all these women came in to
try to clean up that mess and and we're not successful.
And of course Dark Coaster Shaw he today had to
lay off I think three thousand people. It's some enormous
number of people that people have been laid off, and
they're closing down some businesses like freight. Um. It was
at the time then everything was going great, and there
(06:13):
was it was a culture problem that was born of
the CEO, Travis Klink and the people he hired, and
trying to turning around a success, turning around a success
into toxicity. And so you were trying to do that,
and to me it was like putting lipstick on I
don't know what on the coronavirus or something. It was
just not good not to make a joke about. But
(06:35):
really you were trying to market something that had a
fundamental issue with its business. And now of course it's
struggling because of real issues of of health and other things. Well,
We're excited to talk to you, Kara because a lot
of the columns you've been writing in the New York
Times or precisely some of the things we want to
address as we go about this quote unquote new normal
(06:59):
or new new future is ray Dalia said, Yeah, that's right,
that's right. Really how how technology has been affected and
how technology can help or in cases when it hurts.
But before we talk about business, like, I know, we
wanted to talk about education. Sure, yes, well, I mean
that's the thing. I mean, we're all adjusting, right. You
mentioned do you have a you know, kids who are
(07:22):
looking towards graduation, et cetera. What what do you think
is going to happen? Um? In terms of college, I
mean virtual college or you thinking of gap years? Like
what what do we do or what does what does
your your child do? I'm leaving it up to him.
He's gotten into two schools and he's gonna be going
to n y U and so of course that's hot
(07:43):
spots Central um, And I don't know. I'm going to
leave it up to him. He every every day is different.
He's like, I don't know if I want to do
school on zoom. I think he's gonna gonna have to
there's gonna be definitely different. It's not gonna be the
freshman experience that that everybody got to have. Um And
so I'm going to leave it up to them. And
although I don't know what schools are going to do
in terms of everybody taking a gap year, of people
(08:04):
take a gap year, that changes all the dynamics of
the school. Um. So I'm going to let him decide.
He's a he's a fine young man, and he will
figure out what he wants. He's definitely handling it better
than most people. Yeah, yeah, but I know that the
You know, it's interesting. There are all kind of creative
solutions that educators are going to create, right, I get
to engage their students. I mean, you said in a
(08:27):
recent column, I know of no parents, including those living
and what are considered good school districts, who are happy
with their children's online classes terrible. So so what happens?
I mean, what are the innovative ways you think that
educators are going to be able to engage I don't
think I think it teaches us that analog learning is
so important. I mean, I think they've been trying with
these classes but they're not engaging at all, and they're
(08:49):
not They're trying. I have friends who are teachers and
they're trying their best. Um, but I think it's very
hard to engage people without the one on one. That's
That's what it shows to me. Like that, it's some
things are not able to be digitized, and this is
one of them. You think education would have gotten a
lot further. Um. I think for adults it's a little better.
Tons of people are taking webinars and classes and learning
(09:11):
to like I don't know, like cut hair, but not
just that, but like play the banjo and those those
work okay because adults can take it. But I think
young kids you really need to engage them on a
one to one level. And I don't know, it just
it makes me think that, like how good are schools really? Right?
And but I think they have to be one on
one and have that social element. Are you surprised, care though,
(09:32):
that schools didn't adapt more? You know, you have the
con Academy. You would think that they would be a
little more forward thinking about digital learning in general and
perhaps come up with ways to make it more engaging
and more effective. I guess yeah, But think about the
equipment you need if you want to do VR, that
would be the solution. Right now, First of all, a
lot of kids are getting completely lost. Your talking about
(09:54):
digital divide. It's crazy. It's crazy, like not having internet access,
not having a great device, not if they're just not
going to school, they're not, which is even worse. You know,
commit now, if you get into the VR area, the equipment,
you know, it's just not there. It's just not there,
and it's not it's pricey, it's it doesn't work that well,
that would be the I suppose the thing. But what
what does How do you do an engaged curriculum on
(10:17):
a screen? You know, you can do it with entertainment,
you can do it with chat. But I don't think
it translates necessarily because they've been working on educational stuff
for a long time online and they thought it was
gonna take over everything, and I just I just don't
I don't know. Well, let's talk about business. Um, obviously
this has upended everything, so we're going to break it down. First,
Big tech, your confident places I read like Apple, Facebook,
(10:41):
and of course Amazon are going to survive. And I
guess in the case of Amazon, even thrive. They're all
because I think you talked about how they were larded.
I like that word you used in your column, larded
with enough cash. So what they're too big to hail? Uh,
they're not too they're not too big to all. They're
too rich to fail. Why should they fail? They have
so much money, Like that's the the issue. They have
(11:03):
all this money. Some of them are doing rather well,
like the Amazon's stock is really is doing really well
because they're providing services right now and everyone else can't
keep up. That's the real issue. Is that already, except
it's already accelerating trends that have started to happen. Retail
has already been under duress from companies like mostly Amazon essentially,
So now it's not they're not under duress. They're under
(11:24):
duressed and they've been closed and they're financially at a disadvantage,
and they're not getting VC money. They're not getting like
you know, the Delhi or any stores are not getting that.
And so so the big companies, not just Amazon, by
the Walmart is going to be doing really well because
you can go in a Walmarts now an essential store,
but they also sell like as Stephanie rule just point
out surfboards, like, so, what happens to the surfboard guy? Right?
(11:46):
He can't. You know, everybody gets used to and doing
well in this time here, and they don't have these
cushions that these tech companies have. They don't have this
technology that the tech companies have to really figure it out.
And so say your Google and Facebook and advertise thing,
they're only going to get stronger while everybody else look
at their layoffs and all the media companies. Google has
maybe a little bit of a downturn in the advertising.
(12:07):
But when this is over, where are people going to go?
Google and Facebook? Which is why I assume the government's investigating. Well,
also where's the government going to go to get cash?
If you also write, they're coming after those big, big industries,
those big companies because they are so rich and they're
going to be paying for a lot of the stuff
that we need, right exactly, They're gonna be the companies
making money. And so the issue is there's no how
(12:30):
can you innovate and how can you keep small businesses
alive in this environment. I don't think the government is
doing a very good job of it. As you know,
so many stories I mean the amount of stories of
misuse of funds there's going to be in newspapers for
for for years to come. Um and And I think
the issue is that these companies they're not just rich.
They're rich. There are they can put. Look at all
(12:51):
the tech companies like Twitter told his companies employees just
to stay home forever. You know, if you want to Google,
they can work from home. Facebook they can work for home.
It's not ideal, but they certainly have environments where that
doesn't hinder their businesses. Big tech had recently been so
scrutinized for monopolies, for uh tech addiction, for misinformation and
(13:15):
all kinds of things. Now they're bigger fish to fry.
So they're probably breathing a bit of a sigh of
relief on that front too, aren't they. Although you know,
Bill Bill bar just was talking about that. There's two
stories in the journal, and I think there are times
about the Google being the case against Google moving forward,
the investigation Againstchoogle moving forward, and so this is an
advertising and so I think it's that was a little
(13:36):
bit of a shot across the bout, like we haven't forgotten.
I think the issue is there's less appetite in legislative
areas to do like privacy bill. You know, when they're
doing these other things, they can't agree on lunch there,
they can't agree. They can't agree on pandemic relief right,
Like think about it, Like they're not going to agree
on what privacy is. Now that's said. Look, you have
like Elizabeth Warren and Congresswomen up a see is working
(14:00):
on this anti merger buil during the pandemic. You've got
Josh Holly over on the right working with Elizabeth Warren
on the bigness of big text. So there are a
lot of interesting coalitions forming around that. And they've used
the pandemic to redeem themselves. You know, we're not we
were we we got rid of those anti vaxers, We
did this, we stopped misinformation about that. It only underscores
(14:23):
that they can do it. And so when it comes
to political stuff they don't do it. But here they've
done it. So I think they're using it as a
bid for um, maybe we're not so bad. But even
if they do good, does something, they're not too big
and I think that that will be their issue going forward. So,
I mean, you have been talking about some of these
darlings of Silicon Valley, but they're they're facing challenges too.
(14:44):
You know, we talked about Uber a little bit, um Airbnb. There,
there's so many who are facing challenges, and obviously, as
a marketer, i'd love to talk about, you know, perception,
brand perception. What is happening in press that affects those businesses.
What are your thoughts? Well, I think of the Uber ads,
they're I'm glad you're not driving. I'm glad you It's
(15:04):
like it's like sort of Wendy saying I'm glad you're
not eating and eating it's not such a hot thing.
I was fascinating, you know, there was that whole thing
together of all the words they use. Now, Yeah, we're
here to help family, hope, stay home, stay safe, We're
here for you, We're here for you. Um. I was
really fascinated by the Uber ones with the tinkling music.
(15:25):
I'm not sure if it worked that I liked them
any better. I don't know why they spent money on
it telling me not to get in a car. I
don't know what did you think? Well, it's it's it's
actually funny because there are so many different ways to
present the same idea, right, right, And and so what
brands need to do is figure out actually how to
just take that idea of comfort and make it sound
(15:47):
like it's coming from them, but not also destroy your business,
you know, on top of it. Right, But what's the
use of a marketing ad that says, please don't get
in a car if you're a car rental, you know,
a car sharing company. I just don't. I don't get it.
I don't get it. I was sort of so I
almost wrote dark because you're having was like, okay, alright,
like please please don't do what we do. I also
feel like there's so many of those ads going on now,
(16:09):
you guys, they all kind of blur together. For me.
Of course, they all wore my herd and I'm like, yeah,
but I can't remember who's doing what. They all start
to feel pretty duplicative to me, and and then I
start feeling like you're just jumping on this band but
kind of get turned off. Yeah, but that's the whole point,
(16:29):
is that they should be melding and molding their conversation
in this way, but affecting their own business. You know.
So if I would love an add that this sucks,
we had to laid people off and you're not getting
in cars like, hey, come back to us when things
are better, we'll give you. Everyone gets a mask or
something that's that's more helpful for me what I don't know.
(16:50):
I don't know. It's interesting that that uber is advertising.
I didn't see one from Airbnb, which of course is
really talk about the company that's really terrific, has a
great product, and it's really strained. Every aspect of their
business was has set to go public. I mean, can
you I'm interviewing Brian Chowsky later this week about that.
But it's just like that one is really like what
do you do? There's nothing to be said except you're
(17:12):
in the wrong business at this moment in time. I
think their eventually people will be fine. They'll be a vaccine.
People will go back to it because it's a good product,
right like you have the differential between the good products.
It's just because of this particular pandemic and the actual
structural things those there's not cyclical, they're sort of pandemical.
And then there's things like gyms that you may not
go back to. Our movie theaters is a really good thing.
(17:34):
Movie theaters are already on the down swing, right except
for like an Alamo drafthouse that had an experiential kind
of element to it, and so movie theaters are already
on the downtown. That's why you're seeing all these stories
whether Amazon is going to buy a MC or Disney
would buy one of them, because they don't matter anymore,
like they don't there there. It's it's an opportunity for
those companies and it's a business that people stopped doing.
(17:56):
And so that's the issue. Are you a structural problem?
You have a structural problem. More people aren't doing the
same thing with with retail like there was just was
a specialties. Specialties was a fifties store. Is not a
huge business, but they have a lot in San Francisco.
It started in San Francisco, great sandwich store. It was
a great chain. It was doing great. It's closing down.
It doesn't have the financial resources to stay in business.
And it doesn't know when people are going to be
(18:18):
The whole structural change of people being at the office.
It's not just for the pandemic. People are going to
be going to the office as much and therefore the
businesses all around it, parking garages, delis things like that
they're all going to be impacted, and so I think
people don't think about that the community around these companies
and how much they'll be hurting. But let's just go
(18:40):
through some other sectors. Kara, Sure. What about the future
of airlines and travel and the whole leisure kind of
vacation industry. Well, I'm always fascinated by There was a
story that that cruises have open and there have never
been more full, like right, everyone's dying to it. So
there is an element of people who take cruises are
going to take cruises, and they've got to just put
in practices into ice that are going to keep people safer.
(19:02):
Because you know, in this whole thing, the whole the
whole idea of what's happened here is analog has struck
back pretty hard, and we realize how much analog stuff
we do. I don't think people are suddenly not going
to be on planes. There's just gonna be different practices
going on planes and may be much more aware of things.
And the person who was on your plane that was
always marrying a mask isn't weird anymore, right, And maybe
they'll hand them out and they'll have Jet Blue on
(19:23):
the front or whatever the heck they'll have. But I
think it's like if if you were I don't know
if you're old in a buzz, but I know Katie
and I are. When we used to go. When I
was a kid, we used to go through airports right
to the gate if there was no security. Like I
was telling my kid that, I was trying to make
them feel better. Of course it didn't about not being
in school. I was like, oh, well we used to go.
Things change and they don't go back, and so we
(19:45):
had security. Used to walk through the gates. Then we
had a level of security. Now we have enormous security.
Over time, it's the same thing with it. It's going
to be a different experience and everyone will adjust to it.
You'll get on later, you'll get on. It'll be slower,
you'll have masks, there might be you know, all kinds
of things. Now. Interestingly, airlines, they flow the air pretty
quickly in those things, so I think people will feel better.
(20:08):
We'll go back to that much quicker than you think.
Can I just mention one thing you guys on airlines
while we're on this topic, I've heard about these flights
where they're packed in like sardines, and I'm like, what
what is going on here? Why aren't they taking this
more seriously? And yes, I've heard about the air recirculating too,
but it seems to me that you're online, they're not
(20:30):
taking proper precautions. What is that all about? If they
want to get people back? Right? So they so that
because these loads, when they load these airlines, they should
have these middle seats empty. Even then though you know
what I mean, like you can do all you want,
there's people in an enclosed space, and this is like, hello,
hello virus, that kind of thing, even when there's just
a regular virus or a cold, everybody get Yet you've
been on lots of planes, you know that. And so
(20:52):
I think it'll be really interesting to see how they're
going to play it. I think probably people will go
back to it's just at a different level and they
can find different reasons not to fly. And again, digital
means have made it so you don't have to, Like
I was talking to a big broadcast network. You work
for all of them? Is that correct? Okay, thank goodness, Okay,
that wasn't that one, but it was one of the
(21:13):
ones you work for, Katie, And they were talking about
those those those upfronts that they would go to and stuff.
And this guy was like, Oh, we'd pay a lot
of money. We fly first class, we get in the
town cars, we go to the hotels. We've had the dinners.
You've been to a million of those. And he's like,
we did it all in two hours on the phone,
like the decisions that needed to be made, and so
why would we do it that way again? Why would
(21:33):
we spend all that money again? I mean, it's like
the three martini lunch, yeah, right, and they that stopped
and it was replaced by something else, And so I
think that people will begin to reconsider. If you're not
a business person, you're not reconsidering all costs and thinking
about what you can digitize, you're not really good business person.
Yeah yeah, I mean, but speaking of the three martini lunch,
what happens to restaurants? You know, what happens to that
(21:56):
dining experience even after you think if Yeah, because I
think speaking of Uber, one of the bright spots has
been Uber eats, right, and so what and they're talking
there was rumors of them being bought buying Grubhub. Well,
they would have of the delivery market in the United States.
I'm not counting New York because there's so much delivery
in New York and that's sort of a it's already
a system in place at most restaurants, but you know,
(22:19):
they'd have their I think George ash would have, Uber
would have that's a crazy amount of control over the market, right,
So people like that, like the delivery experience. If they that,
they get around and get used to it. And so
even if a small portion of it moves from going
to a restaurant to using these availing themselves, that really
can hit these restaurants hard. Um And and you know
(22:41):
you talked to any restaurant person, this was already a problem.
These delivery fees that these companies take thirty off the top,
this is gonna kill them. Same thing with grocery stores.
And if the Amazon can deliver, if only a small
amount of people now like delivery by by Amazon, they're
gonna use it. People. People start to get used to things,
and so once it's it's I hate to say it,
(23:02):
but it's been a real marketing event for things like streaming,
like Disney streaming or um or anything. It's been a
marketing event for for for a lot of these people this,
people get introduced to the product. I think. I think
the restaurant business, though care has got to come back. People,
I mean, their social lives revolve around meeting friends at restaurants.
Maybe not right away, but don't you think they're gonna
(23:25):
come back. I don't I think it's gonna be. It's
it's already been a try. Same thing with retail. I
mean certain retails certainly, but in general that any trends
that were present are accelerated. And that's what you have
to think about it. If it's accelerated, it's it's act
and then helped by tech, you're really you're really You
could go around from industry to industry and look at
(23:46):
this streaming entertainment like people have been using these look
at Netflix never been more useful and people never been
bigger usage. Now I think people are going to stay
in those zones. And they were already doing home theaters,
they were already the technology availed itself getting these screens
and the ease of use and stuff like that. And
so I do like Disney launching the streaming platform and
speaking which Kevin Marriage is left to go to TikTok
(24:09):
to b CEO of TikTok. Those kind of things are
going to do really well because this this is stuff
has people have gotten used to and are trying now.
Not everything's gonna work. You saw Quimby. I was going
to say, what happened to Quimby. I mean, we'll see,
We'll see. It's a lot of money spent. It's certainly
they clicked a hundred and thirty billion dollars. Uh, it's
a lot of money. And it's a question they were
(24:31):
hoping for commuters, right, people were on. So that's the
issue is that I don't think some of the product
isn't good, and I think some of the product is
quite good. And it's an interesting idea. It's just there's
a lot of options out there. Well, let's talk about TikTok. Yeah. Yeah,
because my daughter, I mean almost eleven year old, she
has an account. She posts a video. Hell, I don't know,
(24:51):
a hundred times a day she's begging me to join.
I've seen so many of those videos, you know, these
not Instagram, this is TikTok. This is is TikTok. This
is TikTok, and she loves it, you know. But also,
I mean we've seen other platforms that are doing so well,
like Zoom. You know, we've been thinking about that and
how much that's increase in use. So what about those
(25:12):
platforms is as ways to recover maybe some of the
central company, and I think it's going to fall off
once this is over. I don't think Zoom is good,
and Zoom was under stress because of the privacy and security.
I don't know if you've got zoom bomb, but I
certainly did. I wanted to be zoom. Let me just
tell you you do not want to be zoom Bo.
Trust me. It was de stends what they're bombing me.
(25:33):
They're never bombing was good good porns. It's always real, dirty,
gross porn. Okay, you're right, it's not good. We don't
want that. We don't want you know, you have to
select your porn, Katie, as you know, as if a
heavy user of porn. I mean you have to choose
it and to promise. Okay, anyway, let's are we too
(25:54):
old to get on TikTok Yes? No, you're wrong, Yes, Okay,
you give the yes because it's not wrong. They're completely wrong.
Tell me why, God, it's it's like when it's like
when all the adults got on Facebook and now because
it's so the algorithms are so good, you get the
(26:14):
things you want to get, and so I don't think
it's quite like that. I don't think it's so apparent
they use algorithmic selections so well compared to everybody else,
knowing what you want and feeding you what you want
and so you can stay in your little zones. What
I think is interesting. I've interviewed a lot of people
and I think they did want podcast with Gary Vayinner Check,
and a lot of business people are trying out TikTok
(26:35):
and so is. There was a great story in the
time to say about a vegan chef who was an
actress who was sort of a didn't do very well
as an actress and now has been doing these lovely
videos on TikTok and now she's a big hit shaded
like so like that. You see how it looks real thin.
Now you've got a few strips, but you know what
you want more than that? Do that because there should
(26:55):
be business. You're gonna use some liquid smokes, you know.
And look at Sarah Cooper, who's a razing she's a
she's a comic. She left Google. I cod passed with
her when she left Google to be a comic a
long time ago. And now she does the Trump She
does the Trump voice with her acting it out. It's
wonderful and she's become like a real sensation. I think
she's going to parlay that into something there because she's
(27:16):
so talented. Not only that, but Kara there was also
a Washington Post reporter who's doing critical reporting. He's kind
of young, and he's getting younger people. He's educating them,
making them more knowledgeable, and really engaging them. Hello, old
have you recently downloaded the app TikTok but you're not
quite sure what it's for? Well, I'm here with a
self proclaimed expert on TikTok, David Jorgensen. Dave, tell us
(27:38):
what TikTok is. It's like a viral video app. And
what is the for you page? It's kind of like
your news feed. You're probably on it right now. And
tell me why is the Washington Post on TikTok? So
I'm gonna go with Karen on this post. I think
that business ignore TikTok at their own peril, and I
think it's you know, I'm a big believer in you
(28:01):
just have to be on as many platforms as you can.
Mass media is now an oxymoron, and you just have
to consider aggregate viewers, aggregate listeners, you know. And I
think Kara has done an incredible job at that. Yeah,
I don't think you have TikTok all the time now
after I did this interview with Cary Bynatrick, because he's
doing advice, Like if you you could, like, there's no
real there's there should be a really important business element
(28:23):
giving business advice on TikTok. It's a much more flexible
platform than in Instagram, which is sort of seen as entertainment. Right,
TikTok is not yet formed, and so I could do
a lot of things. You're listening to the debut episode
of Back to Biz with Katie and Bows. When we return,
Kara talks about how we all have to view essential
(28:44):
workers in an entirely new light. You're listening to Back
to Biz with Katie and Those. Let's get back to it.
Let's return to our conversation with Kara Swisher. Of all
(29:07):
things that this has shown is how many people are exposed,
especially because of the gig economy, which was fueled by
tech companies like Uber everybody, all of them use use contractors.
And I think I had a really good podcast with
Nicole Hannah Jones, who is who who did the sixteen
nineteen projects. She writes about inequality for The New York Times,
which was all about this idea we call them essential
(29:28):
workers now when in fact, before this, we treated them
as if they were not essential, not in essential in
terms of how we paid them, or kind of healthcare
or any kind of benefits. They're sacrificial workers. And and
it creates this sort of with New York magazine called
Rich Corona, Poor Corona. Right, there's these lords and the serfs,
and we're seeing that, we're seeing that in real time
(29:49):
of people who are not protected, and we've got to
really start to think hard about focus on people, not corporations.
And well, I guess the question is you talked all
these big mockers. I mean, do you think they have
the stomach and the will to say, we're gonna start
treating these essential workers better. You have had that nightmare
story for Amazon. You know, Walmart workers didn't get mass
(30:11):
for the longest time. I mean, do you think there's
going to be a real shift in attitude. Well, look
at that Amazon story was interesting because one of the
stories I read was like they happened after Jess Bezos
saw it and visited warehouse, not until then. So I
don't think they're in the presence of mind to think
of these workers as anything but sacrificial. They're not. They
haven't they do. The idea of what an employee is
(30:32):
has to change right very drastically, because in this economy,
a lot of people are contractors, and so what is
an employee? Do they how do they get benefits? How
do they get child childcare? Look at look at the
issues around childcare right now. Anyone who has a young kids,
no matter what they're they're monetary wealth right now unless
you can force someone to work for you and fly
(30:53):
them to I don't know, kirk Turks and cages wherever
you live. Everyone is now understands the childcare crisis in
this country because they don't have childcare all of a sudden.
And I think that's the kind of thing we have
to think about these workers, is that they're not paid enough.
They don't they aren't able to make a living wage,
and we're taking we're feeling it just a tiny bit
in in inconvenient ways. Yeah, but speaking of the employees,
(31:15):
you know, this is such an interesting topic around you know,
sacrificial workers. By the way, that just blew my mind
with I love it. A sacrificial worker. I'm going to
use that from now on because that is absolutely the
truth and gets the center of it. Um. But you've
talked about, you know, w f H working from home, right,
(31:36):
and um, what that's going to be like? So what
do you think of that? I mean, what what happens?
Because Twitter, right just announced that people can work from home,
like indefinitely. What happens? How does that affect out? A
lot of people can't work from home. They can't they
have analog jobs, people who work for the m T
A say, or people who you know, public transit, anyone
(31:56):
who works delivery. Lots of people can't work from home,
and so what are we gonna do for those people?
You know, it's very it's easy for people knowledge workers
to do this, you know, so Twitter could like doesn't
matter where they are doing their coding, It doesn't that
they have they're not connection in their computer. They're just
fine like that kind of thing. And so what we've
got to think about that this country is is more
(32:17):
than just knowledge or else we make everyone a knowledge worker,
which isn't going to have right, you know. I mean
it's a really interesting questions. How do we how do
you work from home? And we do it in such
a way that people can have good childcare, good healthcare,
um and and a good working wage. I mean when
they say they're going to give two more dollars to
people for you know, combat pay, essentially, it's sort of
(32:38):
that it's so insulting to me, you know what I mean,
Like or teachers, how are they going to deal with
not having been trained in technology and now having to
teach courses and make them interesting. They're just sort of
here's a zoom link, good luck, Like what like, excuse me?
This is how we're educating our kids. And so I
think I think we have to have a real public
private partnership on this stuff because this administrations has been
(33:01):
incompetent in every aspect. You can't I can't imagine they're
thinking for the future of like what do we do next,
you know, or how do we return? Well, who are
you impressed by? I mean, if we ever needed some
leader great leaders and and thoughtful leaders and thought leaders
and all of the above, it's now. So who do
you think is providing that kind of leadership, whether it's
(33:22):
in the in the world of tech or outside of
tech carecra Well, you know, there's different people that have
different voices. You know, Look, you can't help but someone
who was who I've been very tough on over the
many years of Bill Gates, but I think they've been
He's been really prescient about this thing and what are
we going to do next around healthcare? And his wife
Melinda Gates is really interesting. I think I'm just thinking
(33:42):
tech leaders. I think Mark bennie Off has been one
of the most outspoken about the idea of compassionate capitalism
and how to get there and how you have to
you have to figure out a new ways of treating workers,
um and creatively educating them and creatively caring for them.
I think that he's talked about a lot of stuff. Um.
You know, there's some politicians you can't help but admire.
Elizabeth Warren In terms of some of them, I think
(34:04):
she's the only politician I'll tell you a big tech
is nervous about the idea of vice president. Elizabeth Warren
has got them sweating because you know, she's she's super
thoughtful about what we need to do, and she's been
talking about this issue for the plight of workers and
the average person for a long time. Um, and even
even the Medicare for All debate, like that may not
(34:24):
be like all of a sudden like oh yeah, maybe
so um and you know not everyone's going to get
this not you know that. I do see the push
pull of people wanting to get back to work. Of
course they think I like not that having stores closed.
They people like not working. I just think it's this
push pull of what average citizens have to realize they
have to sacrifice, and it's something Americans, the twitchy American
(34:47):
electric doesn't like to do. When we come back, Kara
Swisher finds a positive note for us to end on.
Thank goodness you're listening to Back to Biz with Katie
and Boats. And before we finished our conversation with Kara,
(35:10):
we asked her for the inside scoop on what tech
innovations were really impressing her right now. Well, I think
two areas are really big and I've written about them.
One is climate change tech. I think there's some This
is an area we're going to have talk about the
next crisis we're gonna face. Climate change is an ongoing
crisis that we have to figure out, and technology has
to play a big part in it. Not just getting
rid of a carbon in the atmosphere, because that's just
(35:31):
cleaning trash, right, that's just so. What how can we
make food? Like some of the food tech stuff is
really interesting, you know, how we make food available, healthy
food with less a tax on planet. Some of the
autonomous car stuff is really great. I visited a couple
of companies right before this actually that I was really
heartened by, like some of the stuff that's happening there
and the idea of of saving energy in that way. Um,
(35:55):
some of the stuff around energy is cool, Like how
we can build homes like the way we build homes
right know as artisanal, it's ridiculous waste of all kinds
of them that it contributes enormous amounts to greenhouse gases.
Construction does so? Or what are we gonna do with
if we're not going to have cars like I talked
about not or if we're not going to have so
many commercial office businesses, maybe we could turn them into
(36:16):
homes so people could live more affordably. Like there's all
kinds of like like there's a great book by Brad Smith,
he's the president of Microsoft, of all people, Microsoft used
to which used to be sort of the evil Empire.
He's written amazing book called Tools and Weapons and the
same thing. It's about tech. But it can neither be
a it's like a knife. It can be a tool
or a weapon. Which one do we want to use
it for? And I think that's like there's all these
(36:38):
kind of stuff that we can take and start to
think about and what's a better way of doing it?
And I have to say all and if you want
out a positive I think young people really do get this.
What younger people do. My son is my son, Like
he calms me down so much. He gets it, He
understands it. I don't think he's particularly one way. He's
just like, just take a second, like we can figure
(37:00):
this out. Like they're much more. They don't. They're not cynical,
and yet they do. I think I think they're frustrated
with all them We've given them a terrible future with
all this debt we've just piled on right now. Um,
there's no choice here unfortunately, But but I think and
there's who can say viruses virus, like there's nothing to
be done about something like this um But I think
(37:21):
they feels that they're much more I don't want to
say hopeful, but they're more pragmatic about things. And I
feel like whenever I talk to young people, I feel
much better about the world because I think they've grown
up in this tech environment. They see it for what
it is, and they're not fool the way we are,
and and it doesn't panic them. It doesn't you know,
(37:41):
it doesn't upset them quite as much, and they're not afraid,
I think, to get their opinions sometimes I have to
say without portfolio, but I think they they feel very
liberated to say what's wrong too. Sometimes our embarrassment because
I feel like we have done a really shit each
job and a lot of departments. But I love the
(38:02):
fact that they they care so much and they let
you know they care and what they're going to do
about it, And I think it's really refreshing to do.
You find that bows as well? Yeah, I mean, I
think that there's so much to be said for this
coming sort of generation right there, innovating in a way
that we never had to, or generations before them really
(38:22):
haven't had to innovate in this way. Certainly there have been,
you know, terrible moments in history where generations have had
to overcome what their parents did. But you know, even
talking about Karay, your son, you know, going off to
college and then coming out of it, you know, what
work is he going to do? How is he going
to do it? If he's not stressed out about it,
he's feeling hopeful about what will become. I just think
(38:44):
it's a very positive way to look at the future
because although we've saddled them with perhaps what is a
really detrimental, horrible burden. Uh, if he's hopeful, that makes
me hopeful. Well. Also, you have to have a historical perspective,
and I think I just did a great podcast John Meetschim,
who has written lots of loves of people. He's amazing
And one of the things that I think we have
(39:06):
lost historical sense in the way our society is built
so so tech forward and so digital forward, and that
like someone the other day was, you know, this is
just terrible. I'm like, well, slavery was terrible, the Civil
War was terrible, the Whiskey Rebellion was terrible. McCarthyism was
there on the Salem, which trouser like, we have an
ability to overcome things. It's just my only worry is
(39:27):
that because we're so jacked into the tech system that
it's taken over our brains in that addictive way. And
it's really the communications platforms are so invasive and toxic
that it may be the things that's pushed us over
the edge. But we've overcome so much horrible history and
for for lots of people and reached for some really
(39:48):
big goals like them. I was watching for some reason,
I was watching the speech that Kennedy gave about the
moon landing, and I was like, oh, remember that was great,
Like there we can the minute we have a leader
that's like that, I think it appeals to our best
nature and it pulls us away from from all of this. Well,
maybe we just need to get out of the way, Yeah,
or just just let people. I'll end on. I'll lend
(40:12):
you a happy note. I live in this neighborhood in
DC right now with my kids in Shaw And one
thing that's great if you walk around a city at
least I don't know what it's like in the suburbs.
Everyone's on their porches talking to each other. It's really
people are sick of the screens, like they've gotten outside.
They and and this you just go by and meet.
I've met, I know all my neighbors now, which is incredible,
(40:33):
which I which I've moved into a new house, but
I did. I would have taken me forever, would have
been closed inside. And there was this family across right
on the corner for me, and they were all outside
doing the electric slide of all things. And I was
like the electric slide that these kids were loving it.
They there's little kids in name of course, Like I
was like, this is an awful dance, but it's not.
(40:54):
It's not. It's a great dance, and you know. And
they moved to the macarena and it was like it
was is a lovely night and I was like, oh, okay,
you can be like this, you know what I mean.
There was a there was a real sense of community
that was had been lost and I'd forgotten about. And
I thought that was I hope you, I hope you
have video of yourself doing the macarina. I did not.
I was socially distanced and I am I could not
(41:16):
do the electric slide to this day, I tried't no, no,
I can't talk. I think I want some try to
teach you to do the body role. So we made
I well, we're going to be successful in electric slide. No,
that's not happening. I I will do it so badly
you'll be like I cannot believe someone dances quite so bad.
(41:39):
It's really depressing. And I have to learn to dance
because I'm getting married again. I think about hope over experience,
um and uh, and it's a triumph of hope over SCE.
And my my girlfriend is an amazing m She does
tango and she's like, if you know, dance on our
freaking wedding, I'm going to divorce you right afterwards. And
I was like, how, I've got to learn to dance.
So I'm going to get onto YouTube and learn how
(42:01):
to dance. It's all right, but we can. We can
do a zoom and bows and I can teach you
because I'm a pretty good dancer too. I've seen you.
You get down, Katie, correct, you take down blow like
I saw one picture of you. I was like, girl,
what's happened there? Jesus stripes? I dropped it like like
it's hot, you drop it like it's what? Oh it
(42:24):
is hot, Katie? What can you say? It was hot
to start with, it remains hot, it will always be
with Katie Kirk, Kara, thank you for doing this fun? Yeah,
Who's who's next? Who are you having up? What is
what is this? What are you trying to do? Find hope? Right,
We're just we're just talking too smart forward looking people
(42:46):
who were you know, thoughtful and interesting and fun to
talk to you? But I would tell you, but then
I'd have to kill you. Karen Carol. Well, good, that's
a good discussion to have because we can, we can
change things for the better and get rid of the
shitty things for sure us that thanks, thank you, thank you.
Well that was it the very first episode back to
(43:09):
Biz with me Katie and me. So bos what did
you think? Oh my goodness, I'm about to pop the champagne.
That was fun and we're gonna do ten. So there's
a lot more to come. What we're talking to, CEOs, entrepreneurs,
political leaders, cultural trailblazers, gosh, and so many more. So
stay tuned, everybody. The next one will be coming the
(43:30):
first week of June, and new episodes land every Thursday
after that you can find Back to Biz episodes in
the Next Question feed or by searching Apple podcast, the
I Heart Radio app, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows, and if you like what you've heard, spread
the word. Let us know. Come find us on social media.
(43:51):
We're on Instagram and Twitter and TikTok. What do you think, bos,
Are you going to do it? Oh? Hell no, I'm
not getting on TikTok. They can find you on TikTok.
I might do TikTok. I'm an early adapter woman, so
you might find me doing a few very strange dances.
So tell Lael your daughter. She's got to join me
(44:11):
and follow me at least on TikTok. So I have
somebody following me best. All right, Well, the next show
will be Katie and Leel. Okay. Meanwhile, I'm Katie Curik
and I'm Bozma St. John and this is Back to
Biz with Katie and Bows. Thanks for listening, everybody, Okay bye.
(44:38):
Back to Biz with Katie and Bows is a production
of I Heart Radio and Katie Currik Media. The executive
producers are Katie Currik, Bozma St. John, and Courtney Litz.
The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. The associate producers are
Derek Clements, Eliza Costas, and Emily Pinto. Editing by Derrek
Clements and Lauren Hansen, Mixing by Derrek Clements. Special thanks
(45:00):
to Adriana Fasio. For more information about today's episode, go
to Katie kirk dot com. You can also follow Katie
Kuric and bosmas st John on Twitter and Instagram. For
more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I Heart
Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows
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