September 24, 2024 • 30 mins
Rachel tells NK about the pain of her perfectionism, then NK talks to somatics practitioner B. Stepp and artist Yumi Sakugawa about rewriting internal narratives of shame and punishment.
WITH:
+ B. Stepp: www.haveheartsomatics.com
+ Yumi Sakugawa: @yumisakugawa
AND INFORMED BY:
The dangerous downsides of perfectionism - BBC
“Multidimensional Perfectionism And DSM-5 Personality Traits” by Joachim Stoeber
Contemplating the Infinite with Annie Dillard - Literary Hub
Silent All These Years: On Annie Dillard - The Millions
Annie Dillard on Creativity and What It Takes to Be a Writer - The Marginalian
Want to Fix Your Mind? Let Your Body Talk. - The New York Times
What Your Body Has to Do With Social Change - YES! Magazine
Brené Brown: Can We Gain Strength From Shame? - NPR
The Hidden Stress of Growing Up a Child of Immigrants - VICE
How to Be Less Self-Critical When Perfectionism Is a Trap - The New York Times
I Finally Accepted Nothing Can Be Perfect - VICE
Yumi Sakugawa on shame, hiding, paralysis, and making bad art.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, it's mk Faska. Case gets into some heavy topics
about mental health. But keep in mind that I'm a journalist,
not a doctor. So in the description of this and
every episode, I'll leave you a list of relevant resources
and links to the things I'm reading. And while you're listening,
take care. Okay, So can you tell me the story
of how we met, like how we got connected?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Well?
Speaker 3 (00:24):
I heard about this because last year I did this
artist residency at Union Docs, and being a major perfectionist,
I was like, perfect I'll use this as a way
to finish something. I went into that residency and announced
to everybody on day one, like I'm a perfectionist. I'm
using this space to have some accountability. I feel like
(00:44):
I was very vocal about my issues with my own
perfectionism and how it was holding me back, and then
my perfectionism continued to plague me throughout the summer. There
was no accountability that could really fix me or cure
my perfectionism. Literally, the Union Docs account d m to
(01:04):
me your story post with the side eye emoji, because
your posts have been like looking for people whose perfectionism
has gotten in their way and prevented them from doing
the things they want to do, and I was like, okay,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
So how did you feel when you got that?
Speaker 3 (01:20):
I felt too scene drags. I'm working on this personal
project right now and I literally last night had a
completely melt out about it, to the point where I
was almost like, should I email and k this morney
and say I can't do that? It's too raw? What
is wrong with me? Who would they do?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
This? Person's gonna want, person's gonna want, person's gonna person's
gonna want, person's gonna walk, person's gonna walk, person's gonna
want me when I prod anxiety?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
This is basket case. I'm NK. I am a cultural reporter,
a professional overshare, and still a tiny bit afraid that
no one will ever truly love me once they know
the real me. And this episode is about how an
economy that relies on shame makes vulnerability feel dangerous.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
I don't know where I got this idea that I
should be producing high quality art or productions of stuff.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
This is Rachel.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
My sisters and I sometimes would act out our favorite
picture books and our mom would read it and we
would act it out. And I remember even then too
like getting frustrated at my sister's performances and being like, no,
not like that, do it again.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
She's a writer and audio producer who grew up in Minneapolis.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
I wasn't satisfied just to have fun with a creative
with a creative project. I wasn't satisfied just to like
finish it like I wanted it to be good.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
And her earliest memory of needing things to be perfect
is from when she was only three years old.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
I think we're doing watercolors. I finished my watercolor and
hated how it had turned out and just kind of
trashed it, like just painted all over it, like ruined
the image I'd created, and then ripped it into pieces.
I ripped it into teeny bits.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Rachel's mom rescued the destroyed artwork and carefully dried the pieces.
Later she arranged them into two collages and framed them.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
And these framed collages are still on display in my parents'
living room as something of a sick reminder of my
lifelong perfectionism.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Rachel got older and eventually stopped making watercolors, which she
wasn't good at, and turned her attention to writing, which
she was When other people told Rachel she was a
good writer, she liked it, and soon her ability to
express herself in language became something she really liked about herself.
But at the same time, the validation she got from
(04:04):
writing felt precarious, not like something she could hold on to.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Like, Oh boy, okay, this is kind of embarrassing. But
when I was in high school, in my senior year
of high school, I got selected to blog about my
college admissions process for the New York Times. Oh wow.
But I remember having the distinct feeling then and making
the joke then when I was seventeen, where I was like,
this is it, this is my peak, this is my
(04:28):
New York Times byline, and like fearing in my head
that perhaps it was true. Wow, So that's my damage.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
So the thing she enjoyed the most writing was also
tinged with fear, a worry, always hovering at the edges
of her mind that her latest accomplishment would be her last,
and maybe also that it was the accomplishments, the awards,
the recognition that mattered, and that without them, maybe Rachel wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
All you need to know about me is that when
I was in like high school, for like an English class,
you read An American Childhood by Annie Dillard.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Annie Dillard remains Rachel's favorite.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Writer, famously a writer who notices constantly and has something
to say and like it's the queen of like narrativizing
your life.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
If you google Annie Dillard, you'll notice people use words
like genius, legend, singular, even transcendental to describe her. And
when Rachel read her for the first.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Time, I was like, this is for me? I was like,
this is it.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Annie Dillard gave Rachel something concrete to aspire to, a reputation,
a respectable body of work, an accumulation of admirable words
and sentences, end of surprising, insightful observations. Rachel imagined the
books you would write and imagined what people would say
about them, and she pictured someone like her, an aspiring writer,
(05:57):
leafing through her archives.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Some people love Anny Dillard and like I know, for instance,
like my roommate does not like her writing and finds
her like far too precious, where I'm like, oh, she
was like a very foundational writer for me, Like I
love that she's sentimental. I love that she's kind of precious,
Like I like those things I mean, And I think
that maybe part of that is like I see myself
drawn to these kinds of projects that are a little
(06:19):
someone could describe them as precious, and I'm like, what
if I make that and that's what it seems like?
Speaker 1 (06:25):
What if you receive that same judgment?
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Yeah, Like, I don't want to be that anyway.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
It's hilarious to use her as an example because she's beloved,
I know, for you to focus on what if someone
hates me?
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Like, yeah, that's true, that's true.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
After going to college in the Midwest, Rachel moved to
New York City, which is exactly the kind of thing
you do when you're an aspiring writer. It's part of
the Grand tradition, especially if you're the kind of person
who does things for the plot. Except now, when it
comes to Rachel's writing, she often finds herself in a
state of creative paralysis. When she sits down to write.
It's as if the voice of her younger self has
(06:58):
turned on her. No, I like that.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
I'll know that I'm avoiding working on something because I
don't want to have to deal with its imperfections.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Right, Yeah, when's the last time you did share something
that was below your standards? That?
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Yeah, I'm trying to think, well, the thing is it's.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Such a long pause.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
To be clear, I moved to California after surviving only
one year in New York City, So what do I
even know about having high standards about pressure? Am I right?
But having high standards is not really what I'm talking about,
And it's not what Rachel is describing. Perfectionism is just
what's on the surface.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
I think that it's I mean, obviously like perfectionism is
about control. I think it's all wrapped up in kind
of this idea though of like telling a story about
myself and what the work says about me. I think
that there's shame in like every aspect of it for me.
I'm working on this personal project right now, and I
literally last night had a completely melt down about it.
(08:20):
I was crying and I was like inconsolable. I was
just like lying on my bed being like why am
I doing this? I'm so miserable. Why would a person
even want to do something that makes them this miserable?
Like it's that kind of thing where it's like what
is wrong with me? And it just gets to the
point where, like last night, it turned into not only
(08:42):
I'm having a hard time working on this but it
was Can I call myself a creative person? Am I
even good at generating work? Or am I only good
at like doing work in the service of other people's stuff?
Will I ever achieve the things that I want to achieve,
producing work, creating work that like I dreamed of when
I was a kid, being known for work that I do?
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Like?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Will I ever do that? If I keep getting in
my own way? Should I give up on that dream?
Do I need to stop thinking of myself as a
creative person? Am I just a utility player who can
produce other people's stuff? Like? Just this endless cycle of like,
not only I can't do this, I'm having a hard
time working on this, but it just spiraling into is
(09:25):
my conception of myself correct? It's exhausting.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
What Rachel calls perfectionism is really a shorthand for a
kind of mental process. It's not something you are, but
something you do. It's a way of thinking a narrative
about yourself and the world. It's a story in which
you are uniquely, frighteningly inadequate. And it's easy to feel
that way when you live in a culture that demands
(09:52):
constant maxing in nearly every arena of your life, a
culture that relies on that feeling of inadequacy in order
to perpetuate itself, in order to sell you something, in
order to keep you striving, always striving for a better,
more acceptable version of yourself, whether that be through the
self help industrial complex, or through therapy, or through pharmacological intervention.
(10:14):
And that's why perfectionism is an unexpected way to understand
our collective mental health crisis, one which has been getting
worse for over a decade. Because just as the rates
of many mental illnesses are rising, studies have shown that
rates of perfectionism are rising too, and perfectionistic tendencies are
connected to a whole lot of other mental health issues,
including depression and anxiety, eating disorders, post traumatic stress, insomnia,
(10:38):
self harm, and even suicide. Researchers split perfectionism into four
different types, self oriented, other oriented, rigid perfectionism, and socially prescribed.
Socially prescribed perfectionism is rooted in the belief that other
people expect you to be perfect, and studies have shown
that that's the kind of perfectionism that's risen the most.
(11:01):
So what is the reason for this sudden uptick and
harsh inner critics and overwhelming feelings of inadequacy, and why
do so many of us at all ages? Why did
Rachel not feel good enough? And what exactly are we
supposed to do about it?
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Like how do I possibly just let go of this
like foundational identity that I feel like is not serving me.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
I'm not a mental health professional, and I'm not trying
to fix Rachel's damage, but I do want to understand
it because it was all extremely relatable, like being told
at an early age that you're good at something, then
constructing an entire identity around it, Like avoiding activities you
aren't automatically good at because you're too afraid to fail,
(11:43):
Like getting older and finding yourself increasingly confined to this
little space that is the need to appear perfect because
for a long time it felt safe in there. Except
to fit your adult body inside that space, you have
to make yourself much smaller, and at some point you
have to one what it would feel like not to
live your life and a crouch. Rachel's suffering was about
(12:06):
being attached to a narrative in her mind, So I
wondered if maybe the key to disrupting her perfectionist cycle
could be by bypassing her thoughts. I just wanted to
introduce that I'm talking to a somatics practitioner whose name
is B Step. They were teaching a class on perfectionism
and shame and the only reason I didn't take it
was because I was presuming i'd be really busy with
(12:28):
making the show, and I was correct. But I'm talking
to them on Monday about this topic.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Is that real? Is that a real thing? It sounds
so fake?
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Why?
Speaker 3 (12:46):
I don't know, like I'm.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
But you know who's definitely not fake. Our sponsors VRB.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Depression of Anxiety.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
There's actually like nothing woo woo about this. I hate
to say it. It's like very material.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
This is B Step and they are somatics practitioner and
community organizer in Seattle.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
It's like, what do I feel in this body below
my neck?
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Somatic means of the body. Some people think of somatics
as a therapeutic modality, like maybe what you try when
you seem to have hit a dead end with language.
In talk therapy and in certain contexts, the purpose of
somatic therapy can end at guiding people to withstand the
uncomfortable bodily sensations that accompany uncomfortable emotions. B does teach
(13:46):
the practice of embodiment in their workshops, paying attention to
the sensations, emotions, and experiences of the body, but they
also belong to a particular school of somatic thought called
generative somatics. We're deeper awareness about the ways that the
body responds to its social context is considered a valuable
tool for social change, and for the last year, BIA's
(14:07):
been teaching a class about the connection between perfectionism and shame.
Speaker 5 (14:10):
Yeah, I mean the way that we hold shame inside
of somatics is that shame is the belief that we fundamentally,
at a core level, are wrong.
Speaker 6 (14:20):
You know.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
It's like perfectionism and shame they go hand in hand
with each other. It's like they are so linked with
one another. It's like shame is really telling us that
we're not enough for too much, and perfectionism is really
like this pursuit of if I do enough, if I
hustle enough, if I try more, if I become more,
(14:42):
then somehow I will outrun that shame. I will outrun
that not enoughness. I will outrun that too muchness. And
they operate with each other in this feedback.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Loop, and that feeling not trusting at your core that
you are inherently enough can make you more more attentive
to what other people expect of you than to what
you really want.
Speaker 5 (15:03):
You know, if I'm really in a place where I'm
deferring to other people, what happens to my longings, what
happens to my needs, what happens to my safety, and
then what happens to me? So I have to like
be a certain thing to other people, which I think
goes hand in hand with self censorship. It's like, oh,
(15:25):
I'm not going to let out my full voice or
my full offer or my full like creativity because I'm
afraid of how I might be judged or I'm afraid
of how other people might see me if I really
let out my full self. So, you know, inside of
our world done as it pertains to perfectionism, one really
(15:46):
big somatic competency is being able to feel for our longings,
really being able to feel for like what do I want?
And really feeling belonging as bodily phenomenon besas.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Perfectionism isn't a character trait. It's a way to cope
with living inside traumatizing and oppressive systems.
Speaker 5 (16:09):
We inherit narratives from everywhere. You know, like our narratives
are our story about how the world works, how we work,
how we are, what isn't isn't possible. And what I
would say is the most important thing is those narratives
are shaped by our experiences. They're shaped by larger systems,
They're shaped by context that we find ourselves in. So
(16:30):
shame really functions in this way to keep bouncing us
up into a narrative of I'm wrong, I'm not enough,
I suck at my art, I'm lazy. You know, these
sorts of narratives that really keep us from feeling those
really really really intense emotions that are underneath. And really
(16:52):
what I want to highlight, you know, from a somatic
perspective is like our bodies are the sites of our dignity.
If our bodies are the sites of our agency, our
bodies are the sights of where we learn and where
we connect from. To really cut us off from those
ways of knowing that fundamentally serves power.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
At the core of somatic practice as a search for
that lost dignity, a sense of self respect that comes
from being true to yourself and to your own desires.
That sense of self regard has implications not just for ourselves,
but for the communities we belong to.
Speaker 5 (17:25):
Dignity is an embodied phenomenon, and so there's the idea
of dignity and then there's the felt sense of it.
And the definition that I would use of dignity is
dignity is the fundamental knowing that we matter no matter what,
and that our people matter no matter what. And one
way that we might access that sematically is by really feeling.
(17:49):
For there's ground underneath us, and from the place of
that ground, we might really feel our connection to that ground.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
And I mean like the.
Speaker 5 (18:03):
Literal ground, the literal ground. We might feel the connection
to that ground, and then we might like just feel
for like, oh, how do I get a little more
long in relation to that ground? Like how do I
not like over extend my chin to the sky, but
how do I feel just like length in the back
of my neck? Or how do I feel the spine
(18:26):
the vertebrae of the spine moving away from one another.
And that's kind of like the physical shape or embodiment
of more dignity.
Speaker 6 (18:35):
Why is that?
Speaker 5 (18:36):
I mean, even if you try it on in your
own body right now, it's like hard to hide from here,
you know, like shame really wants us to hide. Shame
is really asking us to stay small to hide. Dignity
and shame are kind of opposites of each other in
many ways, and so from here it's like, oh, here's
(18:57):
the like again, the physical embodiment, the shape of well, yeah,
I matter, and so you know, what I really want
for folks is to be able to restore that piece
of themselves that knows like, oh, actually I feel that
I matter. I know that I matter, I know that
my people matter. And then from that place, it's like, oh,
(19:18):
a whole world of choice opens up.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
It's what we do from that place of choice of
agency that interest be because from that place we can
imagine news systems instead of just reacting to or merely
coping with this.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
One, Like, we get to rewrite our stories, and we
get to reoffer our stories in alignment with what we
care about, in an alignment with the actions we want
to take in the world and the lives we want
to live. Transformation is possible. I mean, the sky's the
limit in terms of what stories we can tell. Yes,
all of the conditions exist, and there's still some amount
(19:55):
of choice of how I can act inside of this world,
about how I respond to pressure.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
But feeling that power takes practice, and in the meantime,
the capacity to sit with uncertainty is a skill not
just for people like Rachel, but for everyone. For Somatic
practitioners like b it's a skill that is required for
both individual and systemic change. Their work is about teaching
people to withstand a wider and wider range of emotional
(20:24):
and physical sensations, whether fear or discomfort or the thrill
of deep love. The word that BE uses for that
experience that practice is a liveness.
Speaker 5 (20:38):
You know. Perfectionism is a very like stuck, frozen dead state.
You know, It's like there's not very much movement inside
of it, there's not very much choice inside of it.
And I think somatics is really asking us, how do
we come into relationship with our liveness? Psycho can't tolerate
(21:01):
this much freedom inside my body. But I think that's
really the task, Like how do I tolerate this much aliveness?
Speaker 1 (21:10):
In other words, how do we learn a solp associating
and feel at all? I love what you've laid out
as far as how high the stakes are. I'm thinking
of like Rachel alone in her room with her pay
to practice, but you know, the stake's feeling like no
less high.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
I guess I.
Speaker 5 (21:23):
Don't think those stakes are any less high, honestly, Like
like that what Rachel alone in her room is experiencing
is like a microcosm of our larger world. You know,
It's like there's a reason why the paralysis is there,
and it's like, man, like, what if like very few
(21:46):
of us felt that paralysis or felt whatever it is
that we feel that really keeps us from doing the
thing that we're here to do, from making the contribution
that we're here to make.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
After the break, artist Jumi Sakagawa shows me how pleasure
is the antidote to shame.
Speaker 6 (22:09):
I feel like shame is a very pervasive cultural force
that is internalized a lot as well as externally inflicted
on others.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
This is Yumi Soakagawa, an interdisciplinary artist based in Los Angeles,
and Yumi has a mass of very big following on
Instagram through her insights into the creative process. I had
at least ten of Yumi's Instagram posts saved on my
phone on subjects like shame and perfectionism, but also the
value of practice, playfulness, and desire. Yumi's instagram is an
(22:45):
archive of her own process of moving from a mindset
of fear and shame to one of experimentation and pleasure.
And Yumi is also an artist who is capital s successful.
She's published several books, her comics have appeared in big
publications like New Yorker, and she's exhibited her art at
big institutions like the Japanese American National Museum.
Speaker 6 (23:06):
Success can be not so much about quantifiable measures such
as followers or profit or the numbers of people reached.
Even though I've gone on to publish books that have
gotten for example, six figurebook deals and worldwide publishing, at
(23:28):
the end of the day, my most personally successful projects
have actually been smaller scale works that really intimately formed
a connection with whoever was receiving the work. I think
I was just started to shift towards defining success more
(23:50):
so as the deepness of a connection.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
But maybe it's exactly that the possibility of deep connection
through her art that had been so scary to Rachel
in the first place. Rachel's writing is a kind of
bid for connection, and in order to feel that connection.
She'd have to be open to the chaos of her feelings,
to a liveness, the unpredictable experiences of discomfort, fear, longing
(24:16):
or excitement or pleasure or openness, And she'd have to
do that without knowing how her work would be received
or what parts of herself she would inadvertently reveal in
the process. Maybe Rachel's perfectionism was a shield against all
of that. Maybe the voice in her mind no, not
like that was her body's way of protecting itself from
feeling an even more overwhelming amount of anxiety and shame.
(24:46):
So perfectionism is a distraction. And if shame is how
we stay distracted from what's underneath perfectionism, then what happens
when we learn how not to look away?
Speaker 6 (24:55):
Yeah? I think specifically for me in the past, I
feel like when I would reach create ave blocks or
feel especially frustrated or stuck, I would just be really
mean to myself about it, like, oh, you should shouldn't
be so stuck, or shouldn't be so hard, or if
I read better artists like it would be easier. Then
(25:18):
that narrative pushes me to constantly want to prove to
other people I'm not wrong, I'm not wrong, but also
fearful that other people would discover that, oh, there is
something inherently wrong with me. And I think it was
just really sitting with the feeling and the story and
(25:42):
mentally investigating, Okay, where did this story come from?
Speaker 1 (25:47):
So you and we learn to sit with her deeply
uncomfortable feelings. She learned not to be afraid of them.
Then she learned to be curious.
Speaker 6 (25:55):
And then I think just practicing the self awareness of
catching myself when I would get into that story. So
then I think every time there's awareness, you create a
little bit of a gap between your story and you,
the more adult version observing the story.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
And in that gap you may saw herself in context.
Speaker 6 (26:17):
I was aware of the fact that growing up in
a culturally Japanese household, there is a lot of.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Pressure to.
Speaker 6 (26:26):
I think, conform in certain ways, both obvious and subtle.
And I think it wasn't until adulthood that I really
started to unpack the impact of those upbringings and how
sometimes the shame is so interwoven into your upbringing that
(26:49):
it's nearly invisible because it's so normalized.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
And you me told me that when she began to
investigate the root of her perfectionism. Process took her back
to high school in California, to the many saturdays she
spent in Japanese.
Speaker 6 (27:05):
School, and I felt like there was some clickiness around
who was more plugged into their Japanese mess and for example,
like knowing what bands were popular in Japan. I had
classmates and friends who spoke very, very, very fluent Japanese
(27:28):
like a native speaker, and though I had conversational proficiency,
it was definitely obvious that I was not a native speaker.
And so I distinctly just remember feeling like I'm not
Japanese now, and that was a huge hang up I
had for many years of my life.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
So if perfectionism is a fear of vulnerability and connection,
it makes sense that it would also whip up our
fears around rejection. It's kind of like perfection is an
anxiety about belonging. But as an adult, you may learn
to decouple her Japanese language skills from how she felt
about herself. She practiced by watching anime and reading comics
(28:11):
and listening to Japanese music. She made studying Japanese something fun,
something for her own pleasure, her own enjoyment. And in
the process, as in her creative life, she learned that
the point of speaking Japanese was not to speak it perfectly,
but to connect.
Speaker 6 (28:27):
I think in being able to release the perfectionism of
communicating in a certain way, then it just becomes a
little more playful and fun in how I connect with
other people, like my readers, my followers, or people in
my community.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
And from that place of choice, of agency, of being
in touch with her own desires, Yumi was able to
see that her potential for learning and connecting was abundant.
Speaker 6 (28:55):
And I think similarly with creativity, I feel like the
emphasis is less on efficiency of technical skills, which is
still important to me. I still love validation and acknowledgment
and all those things. I think it's just that those
are no longer for me the only.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Things, and that the real joy was not in perfection
but completion. The process was the point, and the practice
was showing up. Baska Case is a production of molten
(29:49):
Heart and iHeart podcasts. This series was created and is
executive produced by Jasmine J. T. Green and it is hosted,
produced and sound as I by me Mk Nicole Kelly.
Production assistance by Siona Petros Sonic elements provided by Chad Corey.
(30:11):
Adrian Lillly is our mix engineer. Our theme is blue
and orange by Command Jasmine. Our show art was created
by Sinney Rolson. Fact checking by Serena Soln. Legal services
provided by Rowan Moron and File. Our executive producer from
iHeart Podcasts is Lindsay Hoffman. Special thanks to Rachel B.
(30:33):
Stepp and Yumi Sakagawa.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Gonna Want What person's gonna want me, What person's gonna
want me with? What person's gonna want me? When I
have depression and anxiety
Hey, it's mk Faska. Case gets into some heavy topics
about mental health. But keep in mind that I'm a journalist,
not a doctor. So in the description of this and
every episode, I'll leave you a list of relevant resources
and links to the things I'm reading. And while you're listening,
take care. Okay, So can you tell me the story
of how we met, like how we got connected?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Well?
Speaker 3 (00:24):
I heard about this because last year I did this
artist residency at Union Docs, and being a major perfectionist,
I was like, perfect I'll use this as a way
to finish something. I went into that residency and announced
to everybody on day one, like I'm a perfectionist. I'm
using this space to have some accountability. I feel like
(00:44):
I was very vocal about my issues with my own
perfectionism and how it was holding me back, and then
my perfectionism continued to plague me throughout the summer. There
was no accountability that could really fix me or cure
my perfectionism. Literally, the Union Docs account d m to
(01:04):
me your story post with the side eye emoji, because
your posts have been like looking for people whose perfectionism
has gotten in their way and prevented them from doing
the things they want to do, and I was like, okay,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
So how did you feel when you got that?
Speaker 3 (01:20):
I felt too scene drags. I'm working on this personal
project right now and I literally last night had a
completely melt out about it, to the point where I
was almost like, should I email and k this morney
and say I can't do that? It's too raw? What
is wrong with me? Who would they do?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
This? Person's gonna want, person's gonna want, person's gonna person's
gonna want, person's gonna walk, person's gonna walk, person's gonna
want me when I prod anxiety?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
This is basket case. I'm NK. I am a cultural reporter,
a professional overshare, and still a tiny bit afraid that
no one will ever truly love me once they know
the real me. And this episode is about how an
economy that relies on shame makes vulnerability feel dangerous.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
I don't know where I got this idea that I
should be producing high quality art or productions of stuff.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
This is Rachel.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
My sisters and I sometimes would act out our favorite
picture books and our mom would read it and we
would act it out. And I remember even then too
like getting frustrated at my sister's performances and being like, no,
not like that, do it again.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
She's a writer and audio producer who grew up in Minneapolis.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
I wasn't satisfied just to have fun with a creative
with a creative project. I wasn't satisfied just to like
finish it like I wanted it to be good.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
And her earliest memory of needing things to be perfect
is from when she was only three years old.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
I think we're doing watercolors. I finished my watercolor and
hated how it had turned out and just kind of
trashed it, like just painted all over it, like ruined
the image I'd created, and then ripped it into pieces.
I ripped it into teeny bits.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Rachel's mom rescued the destroyed artwork and carefully dried the pieces.
Later she arranged them into two collages and framed them.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
And these framed collages are still on display in my parents'
living room as something of a sick reminder of my
lifelong perfectionism.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Rachel got older and eventually stopped making watercolors, which she
wasn't good at, and turned her attention to writing, which
she was When other people told Rachel she was a
good writer, she liked it, and soon her ability to
express herself in language became something she really liked about herself.
But at the same time, the validation she got from
(04:04):
writing felt precarious, not like something she could hold on to.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Like, Oh boy, okay, this is kind of embarrassing. But
when I was in high school, in my senior year
of high school, I got selected to blog about my
college admissions process for the New York Times. Oh wow.
But I remember having the distinct feeling then and making
the joke then when I was seventeen, where I was like,
this is it, this is my peak, this is my
(04:28):
New York Times byline, and like fearing in my head
that perhaps it was true. Wow, So that's my damage.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
So the thing she enjoyed the most writing was also
tinged with fear, a worry, always hovering at the edges
of her mind that her latest accomplishment would be her last,
and maybe also that it was the accomplishments, the awards,
the recognition that mattered, and that without them, maybe Rachel wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
All you need to know about me is that when
I was in like high school, for like an English class,
you read An American Childhood by Annie Dillard.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Annie Dillard remains Rachel's favorite.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Writer, famously a writer who notices constantly and has something
to say and like it's the queen of like narrativizing
your life.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
If you google Annie Dillard, you'll notice people use words
like genius, legend, singular, even transcendental to describe her. And
when Rachel read her for the first.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Time, I was like, this is for me? I was like,
this is it.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Annie Dillard gave Rachel something concrete to aspire to, a reputation,
a respectable body of work, an accumulation of admirable words
and sentences, end of surprising, insightful observations. Rachel imagined the
books you would write and imagined what people would say
about them, and she pictured someone like her, an aspiring writer,
(05:57):
leafing through her archives.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Some people love Anny Dillard and like I know, for instance,
like my roommate does not like her writing and finds
her like far too precious, where I'm like, oh, she
was like a very foundational writer for me, Like I
love that she's sentimental. I love that she's kind of precious,
Like I like those things I mean, And I think
that maybe part of that is like I see myself
drawn to these kinds of projects that are a little
(06:19):
someone could describe them as precious, and I'm like, what
if I make that and that's what it seems like?
Speaker 1 (06:25):
What if you receive that same judgment?
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Yeah, Like, I don't want to be that anyway.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
It's hilarious to use her as an example because she's beloved,
I know, for you to focus on what if someone
hates me?
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Like, yeah, that's true, that's true.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
After going to college in the Midwest, Rachel moved to
New York City, which is exactly the kind of thing
you do when you're an aspiring writer. It's part of
the Grand tradition, especially if you're the kind of person
who does things for the plot. Except now, when it
comes to Rachel's writing, she often finds herself in a
state of creative paralysis. When she sits down to write.
It's as if the voice of her younger self has
(06:58):
turned on her. No, I like that.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
I'll know that I'm avoiding working on something because I
don't want to have to deal with its imperfections.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Right, Yeah, when's the last time you did share something
that was below your standards? That?
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Yeah, I'm trying to think, well, the thing is it's.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Such a long pause.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
To be clear, I moved to California after surviving only
one year in New York City, So what do I
even know about having high standards about pressure? Am I right?
But having high standards is not really what I'm talking about,
And it's not what Rachel is describing. Perfectionism is just
what's on the surface.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
I think that it's I mean, obviously like perfectionism is
about control. I think it's all wrapped up in kind
of this idea though of like telling a story about
myself and what the work says about me. I think
that there's shame in like every aspect of it for me.
I'm working on this personal project right now, and I
literally last night had a completely melt down about it.
(08:20):
I was crying and I was like inconsolable. I was
just like lying on my bed being like why am
I doing this? I'm so miserable. Why would a person
even want to do something that makes them this miserable?
Like it's that kind of thing where it's like what
is wrong with me? And it just gets to the
point where, like last night, it turned into not only
(08:42):
I'm having a hard time working on this but it
was Can I call myself a creative person? Am I
even good at generating work? Or am I only good
at like doing work in the service of other people's stuff?
Will I ever achieve the things that I want to achieve,
producing work, creating work that like I dreamed of when
I was a kid, being known for work that I do?
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Like?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Will I ever do that? If I keep getting in
my own way? Should I give up on that dream?
Do I need to stop thinking of myself as a
creative person? Am I just a utility player who can
produce other people's stuff? Like? Just this endless cycle of like,
not only I can't do this, I'm having a hard
time working on this, but it just spiraling into is
(09:25):
my conception of myself correct? It's exhausting.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
What Rachel calls perfectionism is really a shorthand for a
kind of mental process. It's not something you are, but
something you do. It's a way of thinking a narrative
about yourself and the world. It's a story in which
you are uniquely, frighteningly inadequate. And it's easy to feel
that way when you live in a culture that demands
(09:52):
constant maxing in nearly every arena of your life, a
culture that relies on that feeling of inadequacy in order
to perpetuate itself, in order to sell you something, in
order to keep you striving, always striving for a better,
more acceptable version of yourself, whether that be through the
self help industrial complex, or through therapy, or through pharmacological intervention.
(10:14):
And that's why perfectionism is an unexpected way to understand
our collective mental health crisis, one which has been getting
worse for over a decade. Because just as the rates
of many mental illnesses are rising, studies have shown that
rates of perfectionism are rising too, and perfectionistic tendencies are
connected to a whole lot of other mental health issues,
including depression and anxiety, eating disorders, post traumatic stress, insomnia,
(10:38):
self harm, and even suicide. Researchers split perfectionism into four
different types, self oriented, other oriented, rigid perfectionism, and socially prescribed.
Socially prescribed perfectionism is rooted in the belief that other
people expect you to be perfect, and studies have shown
that that's the kind of perfectionism that's risen the most.
(11:01):
So what is the reason for this sudden uptick and
harsh inner critics and overwhelming feelings of inadequacy, and why
do so many of us at all ages? Why did
Rachel not feel good enough? And what exactly are we
supposed to do about it?
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Like how do I possibly just let go of this
like foundational identity that I feel like is not serving me.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
I'm not a mental health professional, and I'm not trying
to fix Rachel's damage, but I do want to understand
it because it was all extremely relatable, like being told
at an early age that you're good at something, then
constructing an entire identity around it, Like avoiding activities you
aren't automatically good at because you're too afraid to fail,
(11:43):
Like getting older and finding yourself increasingly confined to this
little space that is the need to appear perfect because
for a long time it felt safe in there. Except
to fit your adult body inside that space, you have
to make yourself much smaller, and at some point you
have to one what it would feel like not to
live your life and a crouch. Rachel's suffering was about
(12:06):
being attached to a narrative in her mind, So I
wondered if maybe the key to disrupting her perfectionist cycle
could be by bypassing her thoughts. I just wanted to
introduce that I'm talking to a somatics practitioner whose name
is B Step. They were teaching a class on perfectionism
and shame and the only reason I didn't take it
was because I was presuming i'd be really busy with
(12:28):
making the show, and I was correct. But I'm talking
to them on Monday about this topic.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Is that real? Is that a real thing? It sounds
so fake?
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Why?
Speaker 3 (12:46):
I don't know, like I'm.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
But you know who's definitely not fake. Our sponsors VRB.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Depression of Anxiety.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
There's actually like nothing woo woo about this. I hate
to say it. It's like very material.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
This is B Step and they are somatics practitioner and
community organizer in Seattle.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
It's like, what do I feel in this body below
my neck?
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Somatic means of the body. Some people think of somatics
as a therapeutic modality, like maybe what you try when
you seem to have hit a dead end with language.
In talk therapy and in certain contexts, the purpose of
somatic therapy can end at guiding people to withstand the
uncomfortable bodily sensations that accompany uncomfortable emotions. B does teach
(13:46):
the practice of embodiment in their workshops, paying attention to
the sensations, emotions, and experiences of the body, but they
also belong to a particular school of somatic thought called
generative somatics. We're deeper awareness about the ways that the
body responds to its social context is considered a valuable
tool for social change, and for the last year, BIA's
(14:07):
been teaching a class about the connection between perfectionism and shame.
Speaker 5 (14:10):
Yeah, I mean the way that we hold shame inside
of somatics is that shame is the belief that we fundamentally,
at a core level, are wrong.
Speaker 6 (14:20):
You know.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
It's like perfectionism and shame they go hand in hand
with each other. It's like they are so linked with
one another. It's like shame is really telling us that
we're not enough for too much, and perfectionism is really
like this pursuit of if I do enough, if I
hustle enough, if I try more, if I become more,
(14:42):
then somehow I will outrun that shame. I will outrun
that not enoughness. I will outrun that too muchness. And
they operate with each other in this feedback.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Loop, and that feeling not trusting at your core that
you are inherently enough can make you more more attentive
to what other people expect of you than to what
you really want.
Speaker 5 (15:03):
You know, if I'm really in a place where I'm
deferring to other people, what happens to my longings, what
happens to my needs, what happens to my safety, and
then what happens to me? So I have to like
be a certain thing to other people, which I think
goes hand in hand with self censorship. It's like, oh,
(15:25):
I'm not going to let out my full voice or
my full offer or my full like creativity because I'm
afraid of how I might be judged or I'm afraid
of how other people might see me if I really
let out my full self. So, you know, inside of
our world done as it pertains to perfectionism, one really
(15:46):
big somatic competency is being able to feel for our longings,
really being able to feel for like what do I want?
And really feeling belonging as bodily phenomenon besas.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Perfectionism isn't a character trait. It's a way to cope
with living inside traumatizing and oppressive systems.
Speaker 5 (16:09):
We inherit narratives from everywhere. You know, like our narratives
are our story about how the world works, how we work,
how we are, what isn't isn't possible. And what I
would say is the most important thing is those narratives
are shaped by our experiences. They're shaped by larger systems,
They're shaped by context that we find ourselves in. So
(16:30):
shame really functions in this way to keep bouncing us
up into a narrative of I'm wrong, I'm not enough,
I suck at my art, I'm lazy. You know, these
sorts of narratives that really keep us from feeling those
really really really intense emotions that are underneath. And really
(16:52):
what I want to highlight, you know, from a somatic
perspective is like our bodies are the sites of our dignity.
If our bodies are the sites of our agency, our
bodies are the sights of where we learn and where
we connect from. To really cut us off from those
ways of knowing that fundamentally serves power.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
At the core of somatic practice as a search for
that lost dignity, a sense of self respect that comes
from being true to yourself and to your own desires.
That sense of self regard has implications not just for ourselves,
but for the communities we belong to.
Speaker 5 (17:25):
Dignity is an embodied phenomenon, and so there's the idea
of dignity and then there's the felt sense of it.
And the definition that I would use of dignity is
dignity is the fundamental knowing that we matter no matter what,
and that our people matter no matter what. And one
way that we might access that sematically is by really feeling.
(17:49):
For there's ground underneath us, and from the place of
that ground, we might really feel our connection to that ground.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
And I mean like the.
Speaker 5 (18:03):
Literal ground, the literal ground. We might feel the connection
to that ground, and then we might like just feel
for like, oh, how do I get a little more
long in relation to that ground? Like how do I
not like over extend my chin to the sky, but
how do I feel just like length in the back
of my neck? Or how do I feel the spine
(18:26):
the vertebrae of the spine moving away from one another.
And that's kind of like the physical shape or embodiment
of more dignity.
Speaker 6 (18:35):
Why is that?
Speaker 5 (18:36):
I mean, even if you try it on in your
own body right now, it's like hard to hide from here,
you know, like shame really wants us to hide. Shame
is really asking us to stay small to hide. Dignity
and shame are kind of opposites of each other in
many ways, and so from here it's like, oh, here's
(18:57):
the like again, the physical embodiment, the shape of well, yeah,
I matter, and so you know, what I really want
for folks is to be able to restore that piece
of themselves that knows like, oh, actually I feel that
I matter. I know that I matter, I know that
my people matter. And then from that place, it's like, oh,
(19:18):
a whole world of choice opens up.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
It's what we do from that place of choice of
agency that interest be because from that place we can
imagine news systems instead of just reacting to or merely
coping with this.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
One, Like, we get to rewrite our stories, and we
get to reoffer our stories in alignment with what we
care about, in an alignment with the actions we want
to take in the world and the lives we want
to live. Transformation is possible. I mean, the sky's the
limit in terms of what stories we can tell. Yes,
all of the conditions exist, and there's still some amount
(19:55):
of choice of how I can act inside of this world,
about how I respond to pressure.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
But feeling that power takes practice, and in the meantime,
the capacity to sit with uncertainty is a skill not
just for people like Rachel, but for everyone. For Somatic
practitioners like b it's a skill that is required for
both individual and systemic change. Their work is about teaching
people to withstand a wider and wider range of emotional
(20:24):
and physical sensations, whether fear or discomfort or the thrill
of deep love. The word that BE uses for that
experience that practice is a liveness.
Speaker 5 (20:38):
You know. Perfectionism is a very like stuck, frozen dead state.
You know, It's like there's not very much movement inside
of it, there's not very much choice inside of it.
And I think somatics is really asking us, how do
we come into relationship with our liveness? Psycho can't tolerate
(21:01):
this much freedom inside my body. But I think that's
really the task, Like how do I tolerate this much aliveness?
Speaker 1 (21:10):
In other words, how do we learn a solp associating
and feel at all? I love what you've laid out
as far as how high the stakes are. I'm thinking
of like Rachel alone in her room with her pay
to practice, but you know, the stake's feeling like no
less high.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
I guess I.
Speaker 5 (21:23):
Don't think those stakes are any less high, honestly, Like
like that what Rachel alone in her room is experiencing
is like a microcosm of our larger world. You know,
It's like there's a reason why the paralysis is there,
and it's like, man, like, what if like very few
(21:46):
of us felt that paralysis or felt whatever it is
that we feel that really keeps us from doing the
thing that we're here to do, from making the contribution
that we're here to make.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
After the break, artist Jumi Sakagawa shows me how pleasure
is the antidote to shame.
Speaker 6 (22:09):
I feel like shame is a very pervasive cultural force
that is internalized a lot as well as externally inflicted
on others.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
This is Yumi Soakagawa, an interdisciplinary artist based in Los Angeles,
and Yumi has a mass of very big following on
Instagram through her insights into the creative process. I had
at least ten of Yumi's Instagram posts saved on my
phone on subjects like shame and perfectionism, but also the
value of practice, playfulness, and desire. Yumi's instagram is an
(22:45):
archive of her own process of moving from a mindset
of fear and shame to one of experimentation and pleasure.
And Yumi is also an artist who is capital s successful.
She's published several books, her comics have appeared in big
publications like New Yorker, and she's exhibited her art at
big institutions like the Japanese American National Museum.
Speaker 6 (23:06):
Success can be not so much about quantifiable measures such
as followers or profit or the numbers of people reached.
Even though I've gone on to publish books that have
gotten for example, six figurebook deals and worldwide publishing, at
(23:28):
the end of the day, my most personally successful projects
have actually been smaller scale works that really intimately formed
a connection with whoever was receiving the work. I think
I was just started to shift towards defining success more
(23:50):
so as the deepness of a connection.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
But maybe it's exactly that the possibility of deep connection
through her art that had been so scary to Rachel
in the first place. Rachel's writing is a kind of
bid for connection, and in order to feel that connection.
She'd have to be open to the chaos of her feelings,
to a liveness, the unpredictable experiences of discomfort, fear, longing
(24:16):
or excitement or pleasure or openness, And she'd have to
do that without knowing how her work would be received
or what parts of herself she would inadvertently reveal in
the process. Maybe Rachel's perfectionism was a shield against all
of that. Maybe the voice in her mind no, not
like that was her body's way of protecting itself from
feeling an even more overwhelming amount of anxiety and shame.
(24:46):
So perfectionism is a distraction. And if shame is how
we stay distracted from what's underneath perfectionism, then what happens
when we learn how not to look away?
Speaker 6 (24:55):
Yeah? I think specifically for me in the past, I
feel like when I would reach create ave blocks or
feel especially frustrated or stuck, I would just be really
mean to myself about it, like, oh, you should shouldn't
be so stuck, or shouldn't be so hard, or if
I read better artists like it would be easier. Then
(25:18):
that narrative pushes me to constantly want to prove to
other people I'm not wrong, I'm not wrong, but also
fearful that other people would discover that, oh, there is
something inherently wrong with me. And I think it was
just really sitting with the feeling and the story and
(25:42):
mentally investigating, Okay, where did this story come from?
Speaker 1 (25:47):
So you and we learn to sit with her deeply
uncomfortable feelings. She learned not to be afraid of them.
Then she learned to be curious.
Speaker 6 (25:55):
And then I think just practicing the self awareness of
catching myself when I would get into that story. So
then I think every time there's awareness, you create a
little bit of a gap between your story and you,
the more adult version observing the story.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
And in that gap you may saw herself in context.
Speaker 6 (26:17):
I was aware of the fact that growing up in
a culturally Japanese household, there is a lot of.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Pressure to.
Speaker 6 (26:26):
I think, conform in certain ways, both obvious and subtle.
And I think it wasn't until adulthood that I really
started to unpack the impact of those upbringings and how
sometimes the shame is so interwoven into your upbringing that
(26:49):
it's nearly invisible because it's so normalized.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
And you me told me that when she began to
investigate the root of her perfectionism. Process took her back
to high school in California, to the many saturdays she
spent in Japanese.
Speaker 6 (27:05):
School, and I felt like there was some clickiness around
who was more plugged into their Japanese mess and for example,
like knowing what bands were popular in Japan. I had
classmates and friends who spoke very, very, very fluent Japanese
(27:28):
like a native speaker, and though I had conversational proficiency,
it was definitely obvious that I was not a native speaker.
And so I distinctly just remember feeling like I'm not
Japanese now, and that was a huge hang up I
had for many years of my life.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
So if perfectionism is a fear of vulnerability and connection,
it makes sense that it would also whip up our
fears around rejection. It's kind of like perfection is an
anxiety about belonging. But as an adult, you may learn
to decouple her Japanese language skills from how she felt
about herself. She practiced by watching anime and reading comics
(28:11):
and listening to Japanese music. She made studying Japanese something fun,
something for her own pleasure, her own enjoyment. And in
the process, as in her creative life, she learned that
the point of speaking Japanese was not to speak it perfectly,
but to connect.
Speaker 6 (28:27):
I think in being able to release the perfectionism of
communicating in a certain way, then it just becomes a
little more playful and fun in how I connect with
other people, like my readers, my followers, or people in
my community.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
And from that place of choice, of agency, of being
in touch with her own desires, Yumi was able to
see that her potential for learning and connecting was abundant.
Speaker 6 (28:55):
And I think similarly with creativity, I feel like the
emphasis is less on efficiency of technical skills, which is
still important to me. I still love validation and acknowledgment
and all those things. I think it's just that those
are no longer for me the only.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Things, and that the real joy was not in perfection
but completion. The process was the point, and the practice
was showing up. Baska Case is a production of molten
(29:49):
Heart and iHeart podcasts. This series was created and is
executive produced by Jasmine J. T. Green and it is hosted,
produced and sound as I by me Mk Nicole Kelly.
Production assistance by Siona Petros Sonic elements provided by Chad Corey.
(30:11):
Adrian Lillly is our mix engineer. Our theme is blue
and orange by Command Jasmine. Our show art was created
by Sinney Rolson. Fact checking by Serena Soln. Legal services
provided by Rowan Moron and File. Our executive producer from
iHeart Podcasts is Lindsay Hoffman. Special thanks to Rachel B.
(30:33):
Stepp and Yumi Sakagawa.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Gonna Want What person's gonna want me, What person's gonna
want me with? What person's gonna want me? When I
have depression and anxiety
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