April 1, 2025 • 35 mins
In today's episode, Laura and Sarah celebrate reaching the big 4-0-0, with some discussion of accumulated topics and lessons learned.
Then, Laura and Sarah share tips of carving out enough time to get focused work done. Everyone knows it's important to have time to really delve into work and concentrate, but the practical aspects of doing that aren't always straightforward, especially if you tend to be the 'default parent' or have a more flexible work-from-home setup. This episode includes concrete things you might do to protect that important time!
Finally, the Q&A is related to this big milestone: "Should I stat a podcast?"
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
and speaker.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,
and course creator. We are two working parents who love
our careers and our families.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome to Best of Both Worlds. Here we talk about
how real women manage work, family, and time for fun,
from figuring out childcare to mapping out long.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Term career goals.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
We want you to get the most out of life.
Welcome to Best of Both Worlds. This is Laura. This
is actually episode four hundred. Very exciting. It's airing in
the beginning of April of twenty twenty five. We began
Best of Both Worlds some seven and a half years
and four hundred episodes ago, and I'm very excited to
(00:57):
be recording this one from Sarah's cl here in Fort Lauderdale. Hi, Sarah, Yes,
closet headquarters.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
We are recording live, and this is kind of an
exciting way to do four hundred yeah together.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I mean, we don't get to do that many episodes
together in the same place, but we've done a few
and it's always.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Exciting when we can. Maybe I don't know getting toward that.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah, I mean, did you think we'd get to four
hundred episodes when we did episode number one?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
No, I definitely was not thinking about four hundred. I
mean probably even one hundred at that point sounded really daunting.
And this is like a testament to that whole thing
where it's like you just keep doing something, it's amazing
what it can accumulate too. I mean, what kind of
library do we have at this point?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Pretty large library, four hundred episodes, I hear so looking
back twenty seventeen, the summer of twenty seventeen when we began,
our lives looked a little bit different to our families
were smaller.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
For instance, yes, I was pregnant with Genevieve, but I
had two children at the time, Aniblee and Cameron were
I guess like almost six and almost four.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, cute different stages of life than now, for sure,
Yeah I had I guess they would have been seven
years younger than they are now.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Is that like ten and eight or six or five?
And yeah, your oldest would have been ten, Yeah, Aliss.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Was two maybe yeah in twenty seventeen, but you know,
then Henry joined us.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
A couple of years later.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
So now between the two of us, we were up
to eight children, which is a good number, and we
have all moved forward seven and a half years, which
is also exciting that we've made it through.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
We are here. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
I looked back to see what the hot podcasts were
in twenty seventeen, and the top five mentioned were This
American Life, Radio Lab, s Town Remember s Town?
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I think that was like a spin off of the serial.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Our second round didn't hit quite as well, and then
something called Hardcore History. But the main thing was that
Laura and I noted that there was like a smattering
of podcasts by women, but most of them were kind
of about the stay at home mom life or homesteading
or something that was a little bit different from our
everyday experience. And we saw that gap and like, hey,
(03:12):
where are the working parents?
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Which we figured out why the gap was there. Again,
do we go?
Speaker 3 (03:15):
A podcast take some time, So it's a hard thing
to throw on top of a inflexible full time career,
but since we both ended up with some flexibility, we
were able to make it work.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Well, it's very exciting that we've been able to do it,
and of course we'd love to hear from people. If
you have a favorite episode, I guess if you have
a least favorite episode, you can share that as well.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Feel free to reach out to either of us.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
We're also trying to figure out as we move forward,
because we planned to keep going at least for now.
I don't know if there'll be an episode eight hundred.
Who even knows what life will look like in seven
and a half years, But we do want to keep
this relevant for women in different stages of life, and
particularly this is a challenge for us as our kids
get older.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Right, Sarah, Yeah, we want to make sure we still
you know, I do think having the blog and the
podcast helps me remember a little bit more than I
see some of my peers remembering what it was like
to have really little kids. Also the fact that Laura
has a very wide age spread so has spent a
lot of years over and over again doing the really
little kid thing.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I think that drums at home maybe more than just
doing one round of it might.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
But yeah, we want to make sure that even if
you are just thinking about having your first kid, that
this podcast still feels like it's for you.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
So hopefully we're able to continue doing that.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, and definitely send us ideas for guests for episodes,
things you'd like us to cover more. We definitely come
up with a lot of our ideas from listener suggestions,
so definitely encourage that.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
But yeah, anything else we have to say about episode
four hundred, no, just thank you.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
We appreciate that we're only still here because people want
to listen to us, so it's amazing. It's a privilege
to be in your feed. However you listen to this.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Podcas absolutely well.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
So the bulk of this episode is going to be
talking about a different topic, which is protecting your deep
work time. So deep work being a phrase that we've
gotten from Cal Newport, has been a guest on our
other podcast. But the time that you are spending in
focused work and not constantly being pulled in different directions,
(05:24):
and it's kind of important to have this time just
for thinking, for creating, for being strategic. And I know
that particularly if you do have a lot going in
your personal life and you have a flexible job, this
could be hard. Now obviously if you are in a
place where you cannot be reached from the outside world.
(05:44):
I mean you're in your office doing your work for
your eight hours I mean, when Sarah's doing clinical work,
there's not a whole.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Lot of back and forth. There's not zero back.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
There's not zero back and forth, but less than there is.
I mean, do you struggle with this is more on
your work from home days though, right.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
I do.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
I do, although sometimes I'm just you know, a teacher
will call you or you know, of course I'm happy
to deal with stuff. But the truth is, neither of
my husband are flexible, so it's not like he's a
better option. But it is amazing that even when you're
really like going back and forth, sometimes things get interrupted.
But I'm more vulnerable to it on my non clinical days,
that is true.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, And I mean you generally try to start work
at when on the non clinical days, would you.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Say as soon as I've dropped off the kids. Sometimes, well,
I mean my schedule is going to be different. There
were some days when I actually chose to work really
early and then run after I drop them off back
in those days, but other times I would run early
and then I would drop them off at school, and
then like writ at eight thirty, I would sit down
and I often had something scheduled many times for like
(06:48):
nine maybe it was in an interview or you know,
something to do, or it was like I have to
get X y Z done by eleven am because at
eleven I have a pall or an interview or something
like that.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
So but then that would be the day as well
when kid appointments would wind up, or if there was
some earon that you particularly had to do or what.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
That's when it happens, of course.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Totally my own appointments, kid appointments, unexpected stuff. Something breaks
in the house and like, oh convenient, she's home.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
I'm like, well, I'm home.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
But like, if I'm leading a paid course session, am
I interruptable?
Speaker 1 (07:23):
No? No, actually I will answer that. No, I know. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
So it's a struggle for sure, and it's wonderful to
have a flexible job, but you just do have to
be aware of this. And so I had written something
for my substack. I have the substack newsletter called vander Hacks,
and I do how tos and tips and things like that,
and I wrote one about protecting your deep work time.
(07:50):
And I think email number one I got about it
was from a certain Sarah Hardhunger. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
I read pretty much all of Laura's and this one
I was like, ooh, we need this. Is this hit
me where it hurt because I think we had just
had some I don't know, something broke, some minor disaster,
and I'm like, we are all feeling this acutely and
we need to talk about this more. And I mean,
you haven't really mentioned the gender divide here, but this
is where I think sometimes when people talk about deep
(08:15):
work and stuff, they're like, that sounds awesome and I
don't get to do it.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, so I think this is such an awesome topic
to talk about. Yeah. So, I mean I analyze.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
I tracked my time and I have for ten years now,
and I analyzed all my time in twenty twenty four
as part of an exercise for the book I was writing.
And I know that I work fewer than forty pure
hours of work per week, right I'm at my desk
probably more than that, but in terms of actual focused work,
(08:47):
it was drifting under that. But I was still surprised
to see it only came out to about thirty two
hours per week. And that is because I think of
a normal work day as starting at by eight and
go to five, but there are very few normal work
days for various reasons that flexibility turns out to be
(09:08):
a double edged sword. And because I could do things
during the workdays, I often was doing things during the workdays.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
And on some level it is okay.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I will say that twenty twenty four was a very
productive year. I got a lot done, I earned a
reasonable amount of money, made professional progress on things.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
But I wrote like a whole book. Yeah I did.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
I did write a book, But sometimes I felt like
I didn't have enough time to execute on the ideas
that I had. And I want to be fair to
myself and to my own ambitions and creativity and all
that and create enough time to do that. So when
we come back from our break, we are going to
talk through some tips on how you can protect your
(09:52):
deep work time even if you do have a flexible
job as well. Well, we are back in this our
four hundredth episode talking about how to protect your deep
(10:13):
work time, and the first strategy I want to talk
about is being strategic with exercise. Now, we are big
fans of exercise, even if that looks different from us
for us now than it that might have a couple
weeks ago as a long topic, people didn't listen to
the past two episodes.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
You can go back to those.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
But for many years I worked out during business hours
because I could, and more importantly, it's always time I
knew would be available, like the.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Kids had childcare or we're in school, And it.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Always felt like working out after work would cause scheduling hassles,
like if I was trying to go out for a
run at five o'clock, something would happen and I wouldn't
get to my run, Or if I tried to schedule
a time with my trainer for five point thirty, something
would happen and it would just be a problem. And
so I'd always do it for during the time when
people were not around me.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
But that means that wasn't work time.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I mean, Sarah, you, I mean you got in the
habit of doing pre work just for clinical days because
you had to.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Yeah, I mean I also live in a hot climate
and most of my workouts are outside, so I was
highly highly motivated to generally get things done well before
the start of normal work hours, so that was a
less of an issue for me. The other thing I
will say about this is that I started doing some
strength training, and I figured.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Out that if I was going to do it, during
the work day.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Do it when I'm brain dead, Like, do not do
it at nine am, because that's like prime hours. But like,
if I'm the kind of person who maybe is not
that useful by four anyway, then that would be like
a reasonable kind of during business hours time for work day.
So even if you are just setting to use business
type hours, those hours are not created equal in terms
of what you're capable of, and so that's something to
(11:54):
take into consideration as well.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
You could also specifically do it as a lunch break, yes, right,
and so but I do currently I meet with my
trainer virtually, but at twelve thirty on Mondays, and so
that is time that I probably would not have been
intensely working because I would have been hungry. So I
tend to grab something very quick on Mondays, do my
workout from twelve thirty to one.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
It's very quick and efficient, and then.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Get back to my desk ideally by one point fifteen
or so. So that's a little better to do that
or yeah, Sarah said, in the afternoon when you start
to get a little bit tired. But I also just
if I am doing a workout during the day, understanding
that that is my break for the day, like there
should not be a lengthy lunch and the exercise, like
we need to protect this time.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yes, that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Another thing then, with in terms of making sure that
all work hours are not created equal, asking for more
convenient appointments. And I've started to do this with my
older children just because it's hard for for them to
miss school that you know, you miss ap calculus, you're
(13:05):
actually missing something you probably needed to learn for the exam.
There's not enough sessions to cover everything. You know, you're
racing through stuff, so it really needs to be not
during the school day, if at all possible. And then
I realized, wait, I'm not doing the same thing for myself,
and particularly what issue. In early twenty twenty four, longtime
listeners know, I was going to multiple physical therapy appointments
(13:28):
per week for my back issue, and they would offer
me times like eleven am, and I would look at
my calendar and there would be nothing at eleven am
on Tuesday, and I'd be like, Okay. But when you
find yourself doing that as somebody who has a flexible job,
just stop.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
In the middle of the day, I think is the
worst because you're like, oh, I can't really do that
much in the morning because I'm gonna have to get
ready to go, and then it's like, oh, I went
to that and.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
That, Like yeah, I mean then it's like lunch, right,
and so the next thing, you know, again, you're not
at your desk like one o'clock from like eleven am
appointment you left at ten thirty. I mean, this is
just ridiculous. It's a bad idea. So there's early mornings.
Often places that serve the public in any sort of
way would open at eight am, So that might be
an option or just what Sarah was saying, right like
(14:17):
later afternoon when your brain is not working as well.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Right, Yeah, if you know that, you probably were Friday afternoon.
You know, although we do think that's helpful for planning
if you do it theain, but maybe you could plan
while you're sitting in the waiting room.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
You can be creative about that.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah, And sometimes people have evening or weekend hours.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
I mean you may have to ask about it.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Our dentist has like they don't like to talk about it,
but if you're really desperate, sometimes you can get a
weekend orthodonist or dentist appointment.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
I think they work.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
They have like one weekend a month and they probably
reserve it for people that are really really begging. And
so I've we have or what happens is we've been
able to get those if someone cancels, so I'll say, like,
put me on a wait list for Saturday, and.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Then a lot of times it's worked out. Yeah, but
you can ask for more convenient appointments.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
So think about you might have a time of day
or week that you would like.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
To schedule most of your appointments.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
And so when you are there calling the dentists and
they're like, well, can you come in at ten am
on Tuesday, You'll be like, do you have anything at
two thirty right, And just maybe they don't, or maybe
you wind up going to the dentist on a seven
month rotation instead of a six month rotation, but probably
your teeth will be fine.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Yeah, And this isn't all or nothing. Of course, there's
going to be some specialist appointment where it's just too bad.
I mean, listen, I feel sort of like hypocritical saying yes,
because sometimes people really want to get in for an
appointment in our office, and especially for that first appointment,
and we're trying to make space for you. We might
only offer you eleven am because it's less desirable and
they're going to have to sometimes say yes. But then
(15:50):
there's like the routine braces fitting and you go all
the time. And so maybe you can't have every appointment
be optimal, but try to optimize the ones where it's possible.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Yeah. Absolutely, Just because you can doesn't mean you should,
all right, So this is the next principle, or at
least you shouldn't always. So where this often comes in
is that people who work from home or people who
have flexible jobs could probably take their kids to school
or pick them up or both. And so sometimes you
(16:23):
think that you should take your kids to school or
pick them up or both. But this can pretty quickly
cut into a work day. I know that when our
normal childcare was not available a few weeks ago, for
several days, I was the one who was generally bringing
Henry and Alex to school in the morning and then
(16:44):
picking up Henry because there's no bus service for preschool obviously,
so I wouldn't get to my desk until nine point fifteen,
nine twenty. I would have to leave at two forty
five to go get Henry and even if I could
convince him to, like go watch a video from like
three point fifteen to four thirty or something, and so
(17:07):
I would be back up my death. It's so chopped
up the time right, like nine to fifteen to two
forty five is only a five and a half hour day.
And I'm not saying like you can't do it, but
you might think about not always doing it. So our
current balance is that three days a week we have
childcare starting at seven thirty in the morning, and I
(17:28):
am just not responsible for the morning. I am at
my desk at seven forty five and the day goes
from there. Two mornings a week, I take the little
boys to school, so I get that experience right of
seeing the teachers, seeing the car line, talking to them
in the car. So it's getting a little bit of both.
And so it's not an either or thing like Ooh,
(17:50):
I'm a bad mom because I'm not taking my kids
to school. It's like, Okay, well, I guess I'm two
days a week being that mom.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
I don't know, no totally.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
I think getting rid of the all or nothing because
I've heard parents say that, oh, but I want to
spend time with my kids in the morning.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Well you can.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
You could do two days, you could do three days.
Like figure out what the right balance would be for you.
But it doesn't have to automatically be five days.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, five, and especially the pick up in the afternoon,
because that can cut into an afternoon very quickly. And
again it doesn't have to be all five days a week.
But maybe you'll arrange for somebody else does a pick
up two or three days a week, or you have
an aftercare thing going a couple days a week.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
It just gives you a longer stretch of time.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
So that afternoon, especially if you're coming back from if
you pause to eat lunch, let's say twelve to twelve
thirty or even twelve to twelve fifteen. I mean, you
only have like the two hours in the afternoon to
do anything if you have to leave for a three
pm pickup. It just you want to make sure that
you have coverage that you can start developing a thought
and getting into the groove. I mean that's true with
(18:53):
childcare in general.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Yes, I was like underpinning, this is the thing we've
said so many times on so many episodes. Definitely this
is appropriate for episode four hundred. Is like you are
working a job, and you should make sure you have
enough childcare to make that work well for you. And
remember that the childcare is not just for you, it's
also for your partner.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yes, if you have a partner, it is for both
of you. And so yeah, maybe, and don't be cheap.
I mean, I get this again that like people like, well,
how can I pay for the fewest number of hours
as possible? And because I'm working from home ergo I
could do all these things. But if you keep in
mind that thought, just because I can doesn't mean I should.
(19:34):
It is possible, especially if you have a sort of
entrepreneurial job where it's not straightforward how much you are
going to get paid. Maybe you'll come up with a
great idea in that like two thirty to four thirty
window where you are working that would.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Pay for your childcare for the next six months.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
I mean, I don't know, that's kind of a big ask,
but like it could happen, right, Like it could happen,
So don't count yourself.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Yeah, there's a little bit of a a long game
or investment aspect to this. I think again, that can
apply more to some career paths than others. I get that,
but you never know.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Yeah, and you won't need childcare forever, so you can
view this as a temporary thing to protect your earning
potential long term. We'll do one more before we go
to our second break, but stop with the housework.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
And errand's already Sarah, are you guilty of this? Not really?
Not really? Okay? Good?
Speaker 3 (20:25):
It helps that I'm just not the best, like the
most caring. I'll just keep forever. So yeah, no, I don't, really,
I don't. I'm trying to think, like sometimes all's sort
of straighten up the kitchen if it's like total okay, disclaimer.
If we do have like a cleaning service that comes
and if they're calming, I do tend to do like
a quick like I'm talking like fifteen minute, like make
(20:48):
sure it's not a disaster, so that when they come
in they can like start in a reasonable space.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
But nothing beyond that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Well, I mean anyone who has worked from home has
probably felt the siren song of getting ahead on the
laweaundry or cleaning up the kitchen after everyone has trashed
it in the morning.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
I know that is.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
A like on the mornings that I do bring the
little boys to school. I am them walking back into
the kitchen at like nine point fifteen, and many times
it still looks like whatever disaster happened in there in
the course of getting out the door, and you know,
I'm like, oh, I get this cleaned up. It's like, well, okay,
Or I could not do that, and I could just
(21:24):
get to my desk already and get these prime work
hours in the morning.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
So just be very careful about it. I'm not saying that.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Moving a load of laundry in the middle of the
day is a terrible thing. I mean, or while you're
on a zoomah, while you're yeah, I mean, I do
understand that it has to happen at some point, and
not having to do it all weekend might be an upside.
But just be aware because many times it is in
fact easier and more satisfying to empty the dishwasher than
(21:56):
to sit down and really struggle through a problem you're having,
like how do I come up with a new thing
for this client that's going to make them want to
re up for the next year, Like how can I
explain my value proposition to them? I need to work
on this proposal, or I could go empty the dishwasher.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
My kids are.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
So good at cleaning their room when they have something
they're stressing about. Homework wise, Yeah, it's actually kind of nice.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
I'm like wow, But then it's like wait a second.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Yeah, yeah, your office, your home office is like sparkling
because like I really don't want to call Jen and
work through this thing, right, yeah, like we all done it,
but you just want to be aware that this is
what you are doing. Just because you work from home
or work flexibly doesn't mean that you should be getting
all the housework done by five pm when you would
(22:43):
be quitting. And it's probably still worth if you would
have had a cleaning service when you're in the office.
Probably should still have one even if you're working from home.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
All Right, we're going to take a quick ad break.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
And we'll be back with a little bit more on
protecting your deep work time. Well, we are back with
episode four hundred, where we are talking about how to
(23:15):
protect your deep work time. I mean, this is really,
you know, trying to have the best of both worlds.
We often worry about work kind of taking over our
personal time, but I find many women in particular and
people who do have flexible jobs can find that their
personal lives are taking over work time. And I'm not
(23:37):
even talking about like the good stuff like playing with
your children. I'm talking all the other things that go on,
and one of these is.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Being perhaps a homeowner.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
And it turns out that homes have things that go wrong, right, Sarah.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
I mean all of mine do constantly. So you actually
don't even have to be a homeowner. You could be
a renter.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
A renter, it's still wrong.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Although you know so maybe it's more of the landlord's
problem than your problem. But you might still have to
have someone still has to be home. Yeah, but you're
not paying for it exactly. No easier when we were renting.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
So the last strategy here as we are thinking about
protecting deep work time is the phrase, no, the contractor
cannot come in the nine am to noon window. Okay,
So this is the bane of anyone who works from
home's life, Like, yes, you're gonna be the one letting
in the contractor because you are there and they give
(24:31):
you these huge windows. And the problem is not so
much like is it a terrible burden to open the door?
Speaker 1 (24:39):
No it is not.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
But the problem is you don't want to schedule meetings
or anything deep that might be interrupted if you know
that the plumber might show up between nine and eleven
and you don't know whins. You're kind of listening for it.
And I especially don't want to start recording if I
don't have somebody there to deal with it, because like
I'll have to stop recording it like be very embarrassing
if I was being interviewed for a podcast and I'm like, Okay, sorry,
(25:03):
there's the doorbell, I gotta go talk to the plumber
for ten minutes about this issue. So you don't schedule
things or you don't get deeply involved in something because
you're kind of listening for when the plumber is going
to show up, and then of course while they're there,
they might have questions. You might have to pay them
at the end. So since this is inevitable that something
(25:25):
will break and you will have to deal with it,
you have a couple options. I mean, one is trying
to concentrate these appointments to a certain time, and you
particularly need to communicate this to anyone else in your
household who might be scheduling these, Like it is not
a costless thing to have a contractor show up if
your spouse is working from home.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Okay, Yeah, Like let's be clear here.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Yeah, I have like sometimes oh, you're going to be there,
but actually, well maybe i'm first of all, maybe I'm
not going to be there. Maybe that is my parent
teacher conference. So you have to be very careful. And
then I think sometimes, as we talked about, like jobs
can be seen as more flexible than they actually are. Like,
of course, if there's an emergency, certain things I do
can be canceled, but in general I have a good
(26:07):
number of fixed things, even on my quote flexible days
that really can't bear someone coming to the door and
then needing to be spoken with, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
So one option is say all of these need to
happen on Friday, if at all possible. Now, obviously, if
you have a huge gushing leak in your house and
you need a plumber right away, this is a different matter.
But if it's something sort of longer, like I need
the painter to come give a bid, well, guess what,
the painter can probably come on a Friday. If you've
decided that Friday is the day that all of these
things happen, or even every other Friday, or trying to
(26:41):
ask for a later window if they say, yeah, we're
going to come on Thursday, and be like, I would
like the later window in the day, right, So the
two to five, the two to five window instead of
the nine to twelve window or whatever it is, because
that way, it's not your best time. Most people are
more focused, more productive in the more and the other option,
(27:02):
which is what we wound up doing because longtime listeners
know we bought this older house that has had to
have extensive renovations which involved a lot of contractor visits.
Even now, is that we hired a home manager who
works two days a week and she does lots of
different things, but one of the things she is responsible
(27:22):
for is all contractor visits. I mean unless it's something
that's out in the yard and they don't even need
to be inside ever or talk to anyone, then she
schedules all of these for the days that she is working.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
And so I the liaison. She's the liaison. It's great.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
So it was really great, Like I mean, there was
somebody in there the other day working on like it's
built in coffee. It's like you buy fancy appliances and
then they break but whoops, whoops. But I was like
sitting there working on my book or something, and she
was dealing with it. I was like, Uh, this is
exactly why we did this, as I am not out
(28:02):
there dealing with the waiting for the person to show up.
And again, I know that's not an option for everybody,
but you know, even just one day a week, or
if you have an after school sitter, but the person
has some flexibility and wants some extra hours, maybe they
can work two afternoons a week starting at noon, and
they could do household chores.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
And they could also be the liaison with any contractors.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Yeah, I mean someone a team might be difficult to
interface with contractors, but like a college student might be
willing to do that for a very reasonable rate, especially
if you're like you can do homework, you can do
whatever you want. I just need you to sit here
and answer the door. So that could be a good solution.
That could be an option too.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
I mean, sometimes again we have to pay to protect
our deep work time. But again, if you were in
an office, this wouldn't even be a question. You probably
aren't taking all of Wednesday off to have painters come
give bids, right like, So don't think that you can
get all your work done at home and have three
painters stopping by it to give bids as well. Like,
it's just going to ruin your whole day, So make
(29:00):
sure that you are protecting your deep work time and
hopefully you will feel more productive and advance in your
career and make enough money.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
To cover the extra outline love it, love it all?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Right, Well, here's an appropriate question for episode four hundred.
Sounds like you guys have fun podcasting? Should I start
a podcast?
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
And no.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
So if you want to start a podcast because it
just sounds super fun, you want to hear your voice
out there, You just want to maybe want to build
a network of people interested in a specific topic and
you know you'll be able to reach them that way,
And it's not specifically for the podcast to earn money,
I say absolutely try it. Why not if you want
to start a podcast because you think it's going to
(29:46):
be a great business plan to have your podcast kill
it and get bought by Spotify for ten million dollars
and like earn a whole bunch of money from ads.
I don't recommend it, I think ea, especially now, I
mean even in twenty seventeen, but especially now, podcasting itself
is just not a huge revenue generator unless you're huge,
and if you're huge, you might not care about the
(30:06):
revenue that a podcast would generate. I could see, like,
I don't know, if you're like a big name influencer
and you just want like another channel and you're already huge,
it might be a great thing to add to your portfolio.
But if you're starting without a huge platform, it's not
super likely. I mean, we are not earning lots of
money from our podcast. It's a wonderful way to have
a platform so you can earn money doing other things,
(30:27):
so it can be part of a career package, and
I think a lot of people use it really well
that way. And again, it can be so fun because
you're building a network of people that are interested in
similar things and you get ideas and you share ideas,
and then maybe that grows into other things. But I
guess I think that when I started this podcast, things
were a little different, and maybe I was deluded to think, like, wow,
(30:47):
you could like that could be your main gig.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Yeah, I don't think it's going to be most people's
main gigs. If you are trying to raise your profile,
build a platform make a name for yourself. As we
said in a previous episode, it can be a good
part of that.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
I do think it's helpful to do a couple of things.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
I mean, one, if you can have a co host,
it feels a lot more doable. I mean, it's two
people to do the work. You can also just make
an episode out of the two of you talking, which
is slightly harder to do if it's just you. I mean,
you obviously can just get on a microphone and talk,
but many people find out a little bit more challenging
(31:28):
than having a back and forth conversation. And then you
also want to make sure that you have enough material
to go for a while. And I think we mentioned
this in Then make a Name for Yourself Episode two
that try to make a list of at least twenty
episodes that you could do. And you don't need to
record twenty episodes all at once at the beginning, I mean,
(31:48):
you'll have time to do that. But if you can't
come up with twenty different episode ideas, then maybe you
need to expand your scope or think of a slightly
different area, or how you could bring somebody in the
cover different topics. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it,
but you should make sure that you have enough material
to keep going for a while, because, like anything, it
will take a while to take off, and you want
(32:09):
to give yourself enough runway to be successful. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
I think one other benefit is that you will gain
skills doing it, Like there are things I have learned.
I never knew how to interview anyone before this, and
now I feel pretty d uncomfortable generating list of questions
and like holding my own interviewing, which I think is
a useful skill for many career paths. I essentially do
not I don't know if I did before, but like,
I really don't have like speaking stage freight of any kind.
(32:36):
I was joking that, like, well, at least my heart
rate doesn't go up when I go I'm going to
do a speech like a bad joke. Now too soon,
but soon you gain a skill set by doing this.
I I'm not saying I'm perfect at it either, and
I probably could work harder at improving my skills because
I don't do a lot of re listening to myself
or anything. But just still, four hundred episodes is a
(32:57):
lot of practice.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
It's a lot of practice.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Yeah, so see if you can at least come up
with twenty ideas and you'll gain skills as you go.
But it can be a lot of fun. We've had
a lot of fun with it. So thank you all
for sticking around for four hundred episodes. Those of you
have we have some complete listeners, which is very exciting,
so shout out to those.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
And our love of the week, Sarah.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
I mean, what else, We're just going to go for
best of both worlds because this podcast is awesome.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
I love the name of our podcast, by the way.
I mean sometimes I'll just.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Hear the phrase use and I'm like, yeah, you guest
your as you're advertising for us exactly. I just think
it's fit so well, and it's been so fun and
so fun to see it grow and to now have
like members who like, you know, I don't know, it's
just the community aspect of it has been way more
rewarding than I could have identified at the outset.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Yeah, and if you'd like to become more involved with
the community, I should just do a quick shout out here.
We do have a Patreon community. We have great discussion
threads going on our web page. We usually do three
or four a week often get lots of helpful comments.
Because it's well pay, well protected community. People are often
willing to share advice in a way I think a
lot of us would be a little bit more reticent
(34:03):
to do just out in the open on the internet
or on social media. We have monthly Zoom meetups where
we talk about all sorts of different topics. We have
a great time, so you know, if you enjoy the show,
feel free to come join us.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
We'd love to have you. Yes, Oh my gosh, exciting
four hundred, four hundred.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Yeah, Thanky Friday, Happy birthday to Best of Both Worlds.
All right, well, we will be back next week for
our four hundred and first episode, and in the meantime,
you know, here's to making the most of work in life,
I guess, making work in life, making work in life
fit together.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com
or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
has been the Best of Both Worlds podcast.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Please join us next time for more on making work
and life work together.
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
and speaker.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,
and course creator. We are two working parents who love
our careers and our families.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome to Best of Both Worlds. Here we talk about
how real women manage work, family, and time for fun,
from figuring out childcare to mapping out long.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Term career goals.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
We want you to get the most out of life.
Welcome to Best of Both Worlds. This is Laura. This
is actually episode four hundred. Very exciting. It's airing in
the beginning of April of twenty twenty five. We began
Best of Both Worlds some seven and a half years
and four hundred episodes ago, and I'm very excited to
(00:57):
be recording this one from Sarah's cl here in Fort Lauderdale. Hi, Sarah, Yes,
closet headquarters.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
We are recording live, and this is kind of an
exciting way to do four hundred yeah together.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I mean, we don't get to do that many episodes
together in the same place, but we've done a few
and it's always.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Exciting when we can. Maybe I don't know getting toward that.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah, I mean, did you think we'd get to four
hundred episodes when we did episode number one?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
No, I definitely was not thinking about four hundred. I
mean probably even one hundred at that point sounded really daunting.
And this is like a testament to that whole thing
where it's like you just keep doing something, it's amazing
what it can accumulate too. I mean, what kind of
library do we have at this point?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Pretty large library, four hundred episodes, I hear so looking
back twenty seventeen, the summer of twenty seventeen when we began,
our lives looked a little bit different to our families
were smaller.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
For instance, yes, I was pregnant with Genevieve, but I
had two children at the time, Aniblee and Cameron were
I guess like almost six and almost four.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, cute different stages of life than now, for sure,
Yeah I had I guess they would have been seven
years younger than they are now.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Is that like ten and eight or six or five?
And yeah, your oldest would have been ten, Yeah, Aliss.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Was two maybe yeah in twenty seventeen, but you know,
then Henry joined us.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
A couple of years later.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
So now between the two of us, we were up
to eight children, which is a good number, and we
have all moved forward seven and a half years, which
is also exciting that we've made it through.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
We are here. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
I looked back to see what the hot podcasts were
in twenty seventeen, and the top five mentioned were This
American Life, Radio Lab, s Town Remember s Town?
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I think that was like a spin off of the serial.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Our second round didn't hit quite as well, and then
something called Hardcore History. But the main thing was that
Laura and I noted that there was like a smattering
of podcasts by women, but most of them were kind
of about the stay at home mom life or homesteading
or something that was a little bit different from our
everyday experience. And we saw that gap and like, hey,
(03:12):
where are the working parents?
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Which we figured out why the gap was there. Again,
do we go?
Speaker 3 (03:15):
A podcast take some time, So it's a hard thing
to throw on top of a inflexible full time career,
but since we both ended up with some flexibility, we
were able to make it work.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Well, it's very exciting that we've been able to do it,
and of course we'd love to hear from people. If
you have a favorite episode, I guess if you have
a least favorite episode, you can share that as well.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Feel free to reach out to either of us.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
We're also trying to figure out as we move forward,
because we planned to keep going at least for now.
I don't know if there'll be an episode eight hundred.
Who even knows what life will look like in seven
and a half years, But we do want to keep
this relevant for women in different stages of life, and
particularly this is a challenge for us as our kids
get older.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Right, Sarah, Yeah, we want to make sure we still
you know, I do think having the blog and the
podcast helps me remember a little bit more than I
see some of my peers remembering what it was like
to have really little kids. Also the fact that Laura
has a very wide age spread so has spent a
lot of years over and over again doing the really
little kid thing.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I think that drums at home maybe more than just
doing one round of it might.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
But yeah, we want to make sure that even if
you are just thinking about having your first kid, that
this podcast still feels like it's for you.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
So hopefully we're able to continue doing that.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, and definitely send us ideas for guests for episodes,
things you'd like us to cover more. We definitely come
up with a lot of our ideas from listener suggestions,
so definitely encourage that.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
But yeah, anything else we have to say about episode
four hundred, no, just thank you.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
We appreciate that we're only still here because people want
to listen to us, so it's amazing. It's a privilege
to be in your feed. However you listen to this.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Podcas absolutely well.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
So the bulk of this episode is going to be
talking about a different topic, which is protecting your deep
work time. So deep work being a phrase that we've
gotten from Cal Newport, has been a guest on our
other podcast. But the time that you are spending in
focused work and not constantly being pulled in different directions,
(05:24):
and it's kind of important to have this time just
for thinking, for creating, for being strategic. And I know
that particularly if you do have a lot going in
your personal life and you have a flexible job, this
could be hard. Now obviously if you are in a
place where you cannot be reached from the outside world.
(05:44):
I mean you're in your office doing your work for
your eight hours I mean, when Sarah's doing clinical work,
there's not a whole.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Lot of back and forth. There's not zero back.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
There's not zero back and forth, but less than there is.
I mean, do you struggle with this is more on
your work from home days though, right.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
I do.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
I do, although sometimes I'm just you know, a teacher
will call you or you know, of course I'm happy
to deal with stuff. But the truth is, neither of
my husband are flexible, so it's not like he's a
better option. But it is amazing that even when you're
really like going back and forth, sometimes things get interrupted.
But I'm more vulnerable to it on my non clinical days,
that is true.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, And I mean you generally try to start work
at when on the non clinical days, would you.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Say as soon as I've dropped off the kids. Sometimes, well,
I mean my schedule is going to be different. There
were some days when I actually chose to work really
early and then run after I drop them off back
in those days, but other times I would run early
and then I would drop them off at school, and
then like writ at eight thirty, I would sit down
and I often had something scheduled many times for like
(06:48):
nine maybe it was in an interview or you know,
something to do, or it was like I have to
get X y Z done by eleven am because at
eleven I have a pall or an interview or something
like that.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
So but then that would be the day as well
when kid appointments would wind up, or if there was
some earon that you particularly had to do or what.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
That's when it happens, of course.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Totally my own appointments, kid appointments, unexpected stuff. Something breaks
in the house and like, oh convenient, she's home.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
I'm like, well, I'm home.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
But like, if I'm leading a paid course session, am
I interruptable?
Speaker 1 (07:23):
No? No, actually I will answer that. No, I know. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
So it's a struggle for sure, and it's wonderful to
have a flexible job, but you just do have to
be aware of this. And so I had written something
for my substack. I have the substack newsletter called vander Hacks,
and I do how tos and tips and things like that,
and I wrote one about protecting your deep work time.
(07:50):
And I think email number one I got about it
was from a certain Sarah Hardhunger. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
I read pretty much all of Laura's and this one
I was like, ooh, we need this. Is this hit
me where it hurt because I think we had just
had some I don't know, something broke, some minor disaster,
and I'm like, we are all feeling this acutely and
we need to talk about this more. And I mean,
you haven't really mentioned the gender divide here, but this
is where I think sometimes when people talk about deep
(08:15):
work and stuff, they're like, that sounds awesome and I
don't get to do it.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, so I think this is such an awesome topic
to talk about. Yeah. So, I mean I analyze.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
I tracked my time and I have for ten years now,
and I analyzed all my time in twenty twenty four
as part of an exercise for the book I was writing.
And I know that I work fewer than forty pure
hours of work per week, right I'm at my desk
probably more than that, but in terms of actual focused work,
(08:47):
it was drifting under that. But I was still surprised
to see it only came out to about thirty two
hours per week. And that is because I think of
a normal work day as starting at by eight and
go to five, but there are very few normal work
days for various reasons that flexibility turns out to be
(09:08):
a double edged sword. And because I could do things
during the workdays, I often was doing things during the workdays.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
And on some level it is okay.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I will say that twenty twenty four was a very
productive year. I got a lot done, I earned a
reasonable amount of money, made professional progress on things.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
But I wrote like a whole book. Yeah I did.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
I did write a book, But sometimes I felt like
I didn't have enough time to execute on the ideas
that I had. And I want to be fair to
myself and to my own ambitions and creativity and all
that and create enough time to do that. So when
we come back from our break, we are going to
talk through some tips on how you can protect your
(09:52):
deep work time even if you do have a flexible
job as well. Well, we are back in this our
four hundredth episode talking about how to protect your deep
(10:13):
work time, and the first strategy I want to talk
about is being strategic with exercise. Now, we are big
fans of exercise, even if that looks different from us
for us now than it that might have a couple
weeks ago as a long topic, people didn't listen to
the past two episodes.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
You can go back to those.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
But for many years I worked out during business hours
because I could, and more importantly, it's always time I
knew would be available, like the.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Kids had childcare or we're in school, And it.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Always felt like working out after work would cause scheduling hassles,
like if I was trying to go out for a
run at five o'clock, something would happen and I wouldn't
get to my run, Or if I tried to schedule
a time with my trainer for five point thirty, something
would happen and it would just be a problem. And
so I'd always do it for during the time when
people were not around me.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
But that means that wasn't work time.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I mean, Sarah, you, I mean you got in the
habit of doing pre work just for clinical days because
you had to.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Yeah, I mean I also live in a hot climate
and most of my workouts are outside, so I was
highly highly motivated to generally get things done well before
the start of normal work hours, so that was a
less of an issue for me. The other thing I
will say about this is that I started doing some
strength training, and I figured.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Out that if I was going to do it, during
the work day.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Do it when I'm brain dead, Like, do not do
it at nine am, because that's like prime hours. But like,
if I'm the kind of person who maybe is not
that useful by four anyway, then that would be like
a reasonable kind of during business hours time for work day.
So even if you are just setting to use business
type hours, those hours are not created equal in terms
of what you're capable of, and so that's something to
(11:54):
take into consideration as well.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
You could also specifically do it as a lunch break, yes, right,
and so but I do currently I meet with my
trainer virtually, but at twelve thirty on Mondays, and so
that is time that I probably would not have been
intensely working because I would have been hungry. So I
tend to grab something very quick on Mondays, do my
workout from twelve thirty to one.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
It's very quick and efficient, and then.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Get back to my desk ideally by one point fifteen
or so. So that's a little better to do that
or yeah, Sarah said, in the afternoon when you start
to get a little bit tired. But I also just
if I am doing a workout during the day, understanding
that that is my break for the day, like there
should not be a lengthy lunch and the exercise, like
we need to protect this time.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yes, that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Another thing then, with in terms of making sure that
all work hours are not created equal, asking for more
convenient appointments. And I've started to do this with my
older children just because it's hard for for them to
miss school that you know, you miss ap calculus, you're
(13:05):
actually missing something you probably needed to learn for the exam.
There's not enough sessions to cover everything. You know, you're
racing through stuff, so it really needs to be not
during the school day, if at all possible. And then
I realized, wait, I'm not doing the same thing for myself,
and particularly what issue. In early twenty twenty four, longtime
listeners know, I was going to multiple physical therapy appointments
(13:28):
per week for my back issue, and they would offer
me times like eleven am, and I would look at
my calendar and there would be nothing at eleven am
on Tuesday, and I'd be like, Okay. But when you
find yourself doing that as somebody who has a flexible job,
just stop.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
In the middle of the day, I think is the
worst because you're like, oh, I can't really do that
much in the morning because I'm gonna have to get
ready to go, and then it's like, oh, I went
to that and.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
That, Like yeah, I mean then it's like lunch, right,
and so the next thing, you know, again, you're not
at your desk like one o'clock from like eleven am
appointment you left at ten thirty. I mean, this is
just ridiculous. It's a bad idea. So there's early mornings.
Often places that serve the public in any sort of
way would open at eight am, So that might be
an option or just what Sarah was saying, right like
(14:17):
later afternoon when your brain is not working as well.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Right, Yeah, if you know that, you probably were Friday afternoon.
You know, although we do think that's helpful for planning
if you do it theain, but maybe you could plan
while you're sitting in the waiting room.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
You can be creative about that.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah, And sometimes people have evening or weekend hours.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
I mean you may have to ask about it.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Our dentist has like they don't like to talk about it,
but if you're really desperate, sometimes you can get a
weekend orthodonist or dentist appointment.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
I think they work.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
They have like one weekend a month and they probably
reserve it for people that are really really begging. And
so I've we have or what happens is we've been
able to get those if someone cancels, so I'll say, like,
put me on a wait list for Saturday, and.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Then a lot of times it's worked out. Yeah, but
you can ask for more convenient appointments.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
So think about you might have a time of day
or week that you would like.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
To schedule most of your appointments.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
And so when you are there calling the dentists and
they're like, well, can you come in at ten am
on Tuesday, You'll be like, do you have anything at
two thirty right, And just maybe they don't, or maybe
you wind up going to the dentist on a seven
month rotation instead of a six month rotation, but probably
your teeth will be fine.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Yeah, And this isn't all or nothing. Of course, there's
going to be some specialist appointment where it's just too bad.
I mean, listen, I feel sort of like hypocritical saying yes,
because sometimes people really want to get in for an
appointment in our office, and especially for that first appointment,
and we're trying to make space for you. We might
only offer you eleven am because it's less desirable and
they're going to have to sometimes say yes. But then
(15:50):
there's like the routine braces fitting and you go all
the time. And so maybe you can't have every appointment
be optimal, but try to optimize the ones where it's possible.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Yeah. Absolutely, Just because you can doesn't mean you should,
all right, So this is the next principle, or at
least you shouldn't always. So where this often comes in
is that people who work from home or people who
have flexible jobs could probably take their kids to school
or pick them up or both. And so sometimes you
(16:23):
think that you should take your kids to school or
pick them up or both. But this can pretty quickly
cut into a work day. I know that when our
normal childcare was not available a few weeks ago, for
several days, I was the one who was generally bringing
Henry and Alex to school in the morning and then
(16:44):
picking up Henry because there's no bus service for preschool obviously,
so I wouldn't get to my desk until nine point fifteen,
nine twenty. I would have to leave at two forty
five to go get Henry and even if I could
convince him to, like go watch a video from like
three point fifteen to four thirty or something, and so
(17:07):
I would be back up my death. It's so chopped
up the time right, like nine to fifteen to two
forty five is only a five and a half hour day.
And I'm not saying like you can't do it, but
you might think about not always doing it. So our
current balance is that three days a week we have
childcare starting at seven thirty in the morning, and I
(17:28):
am just not responsible for the morning. I am at
my desk at seven forty five and the day goes
from there. Two mornings a week, I take the little
boys to school, so I get that experience right of
seeing the teachers, seeing the car line, talking to them
in the car. So it's getting a little bit of both.
And so it's not an either or thing like Ooh,
(17:50):
I'm a bad mom because I'm not taking my kids
to school. It's like, Okay, well, I guess I'm two
days a week being that mom.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
I don't know, no totally.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
I think getting rid of the all or nothing because
I've heard parents say that, oh, but I want to
spend time with my kids in the morning.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Well you can.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
You could do two days, you could do three days.
Like figure out what the right balance would be for you.
But it doesn't have to automatically be five days.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, five, and especially the pick up in the afternoon,
because that can cut into an afternoon very quickly. And
again it doesn't have to be all five days a week.
But maybe you'll arrange for somebody else does a pick
up two or three days a week, or you have
an aftercare thing going a couple days a week.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
It just gives you a longer stretch of time.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
So that afternoon, especially if you're coming back from if
you pause to eat lunch, let's say twelve to twelve
thirty or even twelve to twelve fifteen. I mean, you
only have like the two hours in the afternoon to
do anything if you have to leave for a three
pm pickup. It just you want to make sure that
you have coverage that you can start developing a thought
and getting into the groove. I mean that's true with
(18:53):
childcare in general.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Yes, I was like underpinning, this is the thing we've
said so many times on so many episodes. Definitely this
is appropriate for episode four hundred. Is like you are
working a job, and you should make sure you have
enough childcare to make that work well for you. And
remember that the childcare is not just for you, it's
also for your partner.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yes, if you have a partner, it is for both
of you. And so yeah, maybe, and don't be cheap.
I mean, I get this again that like people like, well,
how can I pay for the fewest number of hours
as possible? And because I'm working from home ergo I
could do all these things. But if you keep in
mind that thought, just because I can doesn't mean I should.
(19:34):
It is possible, especially if you have a sort of
entrepreneurial job where it's not straightforward how much you are
going to get paid. Maybe you'll come up with a
great idea in that like two thirty to four thirty
window where you are working that would.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Pay for your childcare for the next six months.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
I mean, I don't know, that's kind of a big ask,
but like it could happen, right, Like it could happen,
So don't count yourself.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Yeah, there's a little bit of a a long game
or investment aspect to this. I think again, that can
apply more to some career paths than others. I get that,
but you never know.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Yeah, and you won't need childcare forever, so you can
view this as a temporary thing to protect your earning
potential long term. We'll do one more before we go
to our second break, but stop with the housework.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
And errand's already Sarah, are you guilty of this? Not really?
Not really? Okay? Good?
Speaker 3 (20:25):
It helps that I'm just not the best, like the
most caring. I'll just keep forever. So yeah, no, I don't, really,
I don't. I'm trying to think, like sometimes all's sort
of straighten up the kitchen if it's like total okay, disclaimer.
If we do have like a cleaning service that comes
and if they're calming, I do tend to do like
a quick like I'm talking like fifteen minute, like make
(20:48):
sure it's not a disaster, so that when they come
in they can like start in a reasonable space.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
But nothing beyond that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Well, I mean anyone who has worked from home has
probably felt the siren song of getting ahead on the
laweaundry or cleaning up the kitchen after everyone has trashed
it in the morning.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
I know that is.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
A like on the mornings that I do bring the
little boys to school. I am them walking back into
the kitchen at like nine point fifteen, and many times
it still looks like whatever disaster happened in there in
the course of getting out the door, and you know,
I'm like, oh, I get this cleaned up. It's like, well, okay,
Or I could not do that, and I could just
(21:24):
get to my desk already and get these prime work
hours in the morning.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
So just be very careful about it. I'm not saying that.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Moving a load of laundry in the middle of the
day is a terrible thing. I mean, or while you're
on a zoomah, while you're yeah, I mean, I do
understand that it has to happen at some point, and
not having to do it all weekend might be an upside.
But just be aware because many times it is in
fact easier and more satisfying to empty the dishwasher than
(21:56):
to sit down and really struggle through a problem you're having,
like how do I come up with a new thing
for this client that's going to make them want to
re up for the next year, Like how can I
explain my value proposition to them? I need to work
on this proposal, or I could go empty the dishwasher.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
My kids are.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
So good at cleaning their room when they have something
they're stressing about. Homework wise, Yeah, it's actually kind of nice.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
I'm like wow, But then it's like wait a second.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Yeah, yeah, your office, your home office is like sparkling
because like I really don't want to call Jen and
work through this thing, right, yeah, like we all done it,
but you just want to be aware that this is
what you are doing. Just because you work from home
or work flexibly doesn't mean that you should be getting
all the housework done by five pm when you would
(22:43):
be quitting. And it's probably still worth if you would
have had a cleaning service when you're in the office.
Probably should still have one even if you're working from home.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
All Right, we're going to take a quick ad break.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
And we'll be back with a little bit more on
protecting your deep work time. Well, we are back with
episode four hundred, where we are talking about how to
(23:15):
protect your deep work time. I mean, this is really,
you know, trying to have the best of both worlds.
We often worry about work kind of taking over our
personal time, but I find many women in particular and
people who do have flexible jobs can find that their
personal lives are taking over work time. And I'm not
(23:37):
even talking about like the good stuff like playing with
your children. I'm talking all the other things that go on,
and one of these is.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Being perhaps a homeowner.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
And it turns out that homes have things that go wrong, right, Sarah.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
I mean all of mine do constantly. So you actually
don't even have to be a homeowner. You could be
a renter.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
A renter, it's still wrong.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Although you know so maybe it's more of the landlord's
problem than your problem. But you might still have to
have someone still has to be home. Yeah, but you're
not paying for it exactly. No easier when we were renting.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
So the last strategy here as we are thinking about
protecting deep work time is the phrase, no, the contractor
cannot come in the nine am to noon window. Okay,
So this is the bane of anyone who works from
home's life, Like, yes, you're gonna be the one letting
in the contractor because you are there and they give
(24:31):
you these huge windows. And the problem is not so
much like is it a terrible burden to open the door?
Speaker 1 (24:39):
No it is not.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
But the problem is you don't want to schedule meetings
or anything deep that might be interrupted if you know
that the plumber might show up between nine and eleven
and you don't know whins. You're kind of listening for it.
And I especially don't want to start recording if I
don't have somebody there to deal with it, because like
I'll have to stop recording it like be very embarrassing
if I was being interviewed for a podcast and I'm like, Okay, sorry,
(25:03):
there's the doorbell, I gotta go talk to the plumber
for ten minutes about this issue. So you don't schedule
things or you don't get deeply involved in something because
you're kind of listening for when the plumber is going
to show up, and then of course while they're there,
they might have questions. You might have to pay them
at the end. So since this is inevitable that something
(25:25):
will break and you will have to deal with it,
you have a couple options. I mean, one is trying
to concentrate these appointments to a certain time, and you
particularly need to communicate this to anyone else in your
household who might be scheduling these, Like it is not
a costless thing to have a contractor show up if
your spouse is working from home.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Okay, Yeah, Like let's be clear here.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Yeah, I have like sometimes oh, you're going to be there,
but actually, well maybe i'm first of all, maybe I'm
not going to be there. Maybe that is my parent
teacher conference. So you have to be very careful. And
then I think sometimes, as we talked about, like jobs
can be seen as more flexible than they actually are. Like,
of course, if there's an emergency, certain things I do
can be canceled, but in general I have a good
(26:07):
number of fixed things, even on my quote flexible days
that really can't bear someone coming to the door and
then needing to be spoken with, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
So one option is say all of these need to
happen on Friday, if at all possible. Now, obviously, if
you have a huge gushing leak in your house and
you need a plumber right away, this is a different matter.
But if it's something sort of longer, like I need
the painter to come give a bid, well, guess what,
the painter can probably come on a Friday. If you've
decided that Friday is the day that all of these
things happen, or even every other Friday, or trying to
(26:41):
ask for a later window if they say, yeah, we're
going to come on Thursday, and be like, I would
like the later window in the day, right, So the
two to five, the two to five window instead of
the nine to twelve window or whatever it is, because
that way, it's not your best time. Most people are
more focused, more productive in the more and the other option,
(27:02):
which is what we wound up doing because longtime listeners
know we bought this older house that has had to
have extensive renovations which involved a lot of contractor visits.
Even now, is that we hired a home manager who
works two days a week and she does lots of
different things, but one of the things she is responsible
(27:22):
for is all contractor visits. I mean unless it's something
that's out in the yard and they don't even need
to be inside ever or talk to anyone, then she
schedules all of these for the days that she is working.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
And so I the liaison. She's the liaison. It's great.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
So it was really great, Like I mean, there was
somebody in there the other day working on like it's
built in coffee. It's like you buy fancy appliances and
then they break but whoops, whoops. But I was like
sitting there working on my book or something, and she
was dealing with it. I was like, Uh, this is
exactly why we did this, as I am not out
(28:02):
there dealing with the waiting for the person to show up.
And again, I know that's not an option for everybody,
but you know, even just one day a week, or
if you have an after school sitter, but the person
has some flexibility and wants some extra hours, maybe they
can work two afternoons a week starting at noon, and
they could do household chores.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
And they could also be the liaison with any contractors.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Yeah, I mean someone a team might be difficult to
interface with contractors, but like a college student might be
willing to do that for a very reasonable rate, especially
if you're like you can do homework, you can do
whatever you want. I just need you to sit here
and answer the door. So that could be a good solution.
That could be an option too.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
I mean, sometimes again we have to pay to protect
our deep work time. But again, if you were in
an office, this wouldn't even be a question. You probably
aren't taking all of Wednesday off to have painters come
give bids, right like, So don't think that you can
get all your work done at home and have three
painters stopping by it to give bids as well. Like,
it's just going to ruin your whole day, So make
(29:00):
sure that you are protecting your deep work time and
hopefully you will feel more productive and advance in your
career and make enough money.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
To cover the extra outline love it, love it all?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Right, Well, here's an appropriate question for episode four hundred.
Sounds like you guys have fun podcasting? Should I start
a podcast?
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
And no.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
So if you want to start a podcast because it
just sounds super fun, you want to hear your voice
out there, You just want to maybe want to build
a network of people interested in a specific topic and
you know you'll be able to reach them that way,
And it's not specifically for the podcast to earn money,
I say absolutely try it. Why not if you want
to start a podcast because you think it's going to
(29:46):
be a great business plan to have your podcast kill
it and get bought by Spotify for ten million dollars
and like earn a whole bunch of money from ads.
I don't recommend it, I think ea, especially now, I
mean even in twenty seventeen, but especially now, podcasting itself
is just not a huge revenue generator unless you're huge,
and if you're huge, you might not care about the
(30:06):
revenue that a podcast would generate. I could see, like,
I don't know, if you're like a big name influencer
and you just want like another channel and you're already huge,
it might be a great thing to add to your portfolio.
But if you're starting without a huge platform, it's not
super likely. I mean, we are not earning lots of
money from our podcast. It's a wonderful way to have
a platform so you can earn money doing other things,
(30:27):
so it can be part of a career package, and
I think a lot of people use it really well
that way. And again, it can be so fun because
you're building a network of people that are interested in
similar things and you get ideas and you share ideas,
and then maybe that grows into other things. But I
guess I think that when I started this podcast, things
were a little different, and maybe I was deluded to think, like, wow,
(30:47):
you could like that could be your main gig.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Yeah, I don't think it's going to be most people's
main gigs. If you are trying to raise your profile,
build a platform make a name for yourself. As we
said in a previous episode, it can be a good
part of that.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
I do think it's helpful to do a couple of things.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
I mean, one, if you can have a co host,
it feels a lot more doable. I mean, it's two
people to do the work. You can also just make
an episode out of the two of you talking, which
is slightly harder to do if it's just you. I mean,
you obviously can just get on a microphone and talk,
but many people find out a little bit more challenging
(31:28):
than having a back and forth conversation. And then you
also want to make sure that you have enough material
to go for a while. And I think we mentioned
this in Then make a Name for Yourself Episode two
that try to make a list of at least twenty
episodes that you could do. And you don't need to
record twenty episodes all at once at the beginning, I mean,
(31:48):
you'll have time to do that. But if you can't
come up with twenty different episode ideas, then maybe you
need to expand your scope or think of a slightly
different area, or how you could bring somebody in the
cover different topics. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it,
but you should make sure that you have enough material
to keep going for a while, because, like anything, it
will take a while to take off, and you want
(32:09):
to give yourself enough runway to be successful. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
I think one other benefit is that you will gain
skills doing it, Like there are things I have learned.
I never knew how to interview anyone before this, and
now I feel pretty d uncomfortable generating list of questions
and like holding my own interviewing, which I think is
a useful skill for many career paths. I essentially do
not I don't know if I did before, but like,
I really don't have like speaking stage freight of any kind.
(32:36):
I was joking that, like, well, at least my heart
rate doesn't go up when I go I'm going to
do a speech like a bad joke. Now too soon,
but soon you gain a skill set by doing this.
I I'm not saying I'm perfect at it either, and
I probably could work harder at improving my skills because
I don't do a lot of re listening to myself
or anything. But just still, four hundred episodes is a
(32:57):
lot of practice.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
It's a lot of practice.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Yeah, so see if you can at least come up
with twenty ideas and you'll gain skills as you go.
But it can be a lot of fun. We've had
a lot of fun with it. So thank you all
for sticking around for four hundred episodes. Those of you
have we have some complete listeners, which is very exciting,
so shout out to those.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
And our love of the week, Sarah.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
I mean, what else, We're just going to go for
best of both worlds because this podcast is awesome.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
I love the name of our podcast, by the way.
I mean sometimes I'll just.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Hear the phrase use and I'm like, yeah, you guest
your as you're advertising for us exactly. I just think
it's fit so well, and it's been so fun and
so fun to see it grow and to now have
like members who like, you know, I don't know, it's
just the community aspect of it has been way more
rewarding than I could have identified at the outset.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Yeah, and if you'd like to become more involved with
the community, I should just do a quick shout out here.
We do have a Patreon community. We have great discussion
threads going on our web page. We usually do three
or four a week often get lots of helpful comments.
Because it's well pay, well protected community. People are often
willing to share advice in a way I think a
lot of us would be a little bit more reticent
(34:03):
to do just out in the open on the internet
or on social media. We have monthly Zoom meetups where
we talk about all sorts of different topics. We have
a great time, so you know, if you enjoy the show,
feel free to come join us.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
We'd love to have you. Yes, Oh my gosh, exciting
four hundred, four hundred.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Yeah, Thanky Friday, Happy birthday to Best of Both Worlds.
All right, well, we will be back next week for
our four hundred and first episode, and in the meantime,
you know, here's to making the most of work in life,
I guess, making work in life, making work in life
fit together.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com
or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
has been the Best of Both Worlds podcast.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Please join us next time for more on making work
and life work together.
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