September 24, 2024 • 47 mins
Sam Kelly is a therapist turned course creator with a passion for getting kids to NOTICE and contribute to household management. Sarah and Laura discuss their own current statuses in this realm, and then Sam joins Sarah for the interview portion of the episode.
In the Q&A, a listener writes in asking how to manage teens not wanting to participate in as many family activities, in part because they are busy with school and their own stuff?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
and speaker.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician,
writer and course creator. We are two working parents who
love our careers and our families.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.
From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.
We want you to get the most out of life.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
This episode is airing in late September of twenty twenty four.
Sarah is going to be interviewing Sam Kelly, who is
a former therapist who now has a business where she
teaches a course called Little Cycle Breakers, which is about
getting kids to notice what needs doing and take more
response ability at home. So I'm sure we have a
lot of listeners who think that sounds like a great idea.
(01:04):
I w'd love to have more people who live with
us participate in taking care of things. So Sarah is
noticing what needs to be done and participating in household life,
something that happens a lot in your house.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Not at all, I think been noticing in particular is
very much not happening, and I do feel like it's
very easy to be like I'm in the little kid phase.
I'm in the little kid phase. My kids can't do anything,
and then like you look up and you're like, we
are not in that phase. They could have been doing
so much and years have gone by. I mean, I
(01:42):
don't feel like there's a lot of noticing that goes on,
and I'd really like to work towards that. Plus just
having people have some more regular responsibilities compared to what
we have going on right now. Like if I'm cooking
dinner on Sunday, I want kids to be like, oh,
let me set the table and put the waters on
the table, or let's help clean up after the meal.
I want to get my backpack stuff ready so then
(02:04):
I'm not freaking out in the morning like maybe I do.
So I am super super excited for this interview and
learning more from Sam because I actually feel like we're
at the prime moment to work on some of these things.
I mean, maybe she would say we were kind of
late because I think some of her stuff is geared
to younger kids, but still sure, there's a lot we
can benefit from.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah, I got to say, I mean, I love the
idea of people noticing and doing stuff, and I think
that's great when it happens, I would say you probably
don't have to rely on the noticing. If noticing is
the hoop you're trying to get through, that may be
a really challenging one to do. However, if your goal
(02:42):
is just to get the kids to help more around
the house, getting your head around the idea of just
asking more for them to do, Like my kids almost
never turned down a direct request, Like it would take
a lot for somebody to be like, if I'm like,
empty the dishwasher please, for them to be like, no,
I won't, and that would cause a real issue. So
(03:05):
I need to just be like, would you please empty
the dishwasher, or let's all clear the table together, or
why don't you go do the pots and pans and
you do this part? Or all right, kids, you need
to go help take out the trash right now, or
the cleaning service is coming tomorrow, so your room floors
need to be picked up, because otherwise no one's responsible
(03:25):
for where your stuff winds up. That's not going to
be my fault when things are are lost, or if
you would like your laundry done, great, but it needs
to be in the laundry room by nine am this morning,
otherwise it will not be happening today. So you know,
I think you can just calmly ask for things. Again,
would it be great if they noticed and like just
(03:47):
did it. Yeah, But there are also other ways to
get more help instead of just hoping that the noticing
will happen.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
And that's even hard sometimes. I mean, I'm a little
jealous that you can just ask someone nicely to please
unload the dishwasher and it will happen. I wish I
could say that it's true. In our house, I might
get a know, I might get my question ignored. I
mean usually after repeated requests, perhaps an escalating tone, it
might happen, but not quickly. And I really do feel
(04:18):
like that is to some extent just our fault, like
we just didn't build that into the culture of you
guys need to help us with stuff, and I feel
like it's time.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
So yeah, I would also say, I mean sometimes the pushback,
that way people try to push back is say, well,
why didn't you ask so and so or so and
so hasn't done anything today. And the problem is, if
there are like four older kids, there's a lot of
people you could point out to maybe it's been not
doing anything today or something like that, and you know,
(04:50):
I have to come up with a calm answer to that,
which is just that I will ask them to do
something else and I am asking you to do this,
and hopefully, you know, you just say that enough.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Eventually maybe we'll lessen it. We'll see.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
But I'm very excited to hear what Sam Kelly has
to say here as well.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
So let's go to the interview.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
Well, I am so excited today to be here with
Sam Kelly, who is the author of an audio course
that we're going to talk all about, and it has
to do with kids noticing, as you heard in the intro,
Laura and I are not the best about having our
kids help out around the home. And Sam, Laura and
I have kids ranging mes from like before to seventeen
(05:29):
between us, we have eight kids, so lots of experience
with parenting not knocking it out of the park in
terms of making sure the kids are helping and contributing
to our home life. So I'm super excited to chat.
So tell our listeners a little bit about your background
and your current career life, and I guess a little
bit how you got interested in this particular topic.
Speaker 5 (05:50):
Yeah, so, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 6 (05:52):
So I am a therapist turned coach for mothers. I
teach kids how to be proactive in the home, break
this side full of motherhood burnout, and to also break
the cycle of inequitable partnership. And you know, it's interesting.
Speaker 5 (06:06):
That you mentioned and I hear this a lot, like, Ah, like.
Speaker 6 (06:09):
I'm not the best at teaching my kids how to
help around the house.
Speaker 7 (06:12):
And I totally.
Speaker 6 (06:14):
Relate to that because when you are the parents, and
oftentimes as women, we are the default parent, and you're
working outside the home, you're basically working two jobs full
time and then some When we think about trying to
get our kids to be contributors in the home, it
can feel like just one more thing on our list.
(06:36):
And when we go to try to teach them.
Speaker 5 (06:38):
How to like unload the dishwasher, or.
Speaker 6 (06:40):
Here's how to clean up after yourself or sleep up
a mess, whatever it is, it can feel so much
harder to get them.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
To do it.
Speaker 6 (06:50):
And at the end of the day, I'm like, we
just need to get the stuff done, so I don't
have time to go to battle with my kids just
to get a bathroom cleaned. Five thousand things on my
to do list.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
I just need to get it cleaned.
Speaker 7 (07:03):
And it's so much.
Speaker 6 (07:04):
Easier if I am quicker, if I just do it myself.
And so I just want to give like so much
empathy and compassion because I have totally been there. I've
read all the stuff and I was like, that sounds great,
But I just need to be able to like move
on with my life because I have so many things
to do and having my kids like learn how to
do the dishes at the very bottom of my list.
So that is what we are doing, and we're doing
(07:27):
it in the easiest, simplest, most low list way for
busy parents because I am a busy working mom of
three and if it's not practical or realistic for my life,
it's not going to happen. So that is what we're doing,
and it's honestly changing home dynamics and women especially lives
(07:47):
everywhere all around the world because it is so practical
and doable and it actually works.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
I love it. Well, let's start a little bit from
the beginning and talk about what this kind of like
in visis load is because you mentioned the invisible load
and a lot of your work, and yet I want,
I mean, we all have kind of our idea of
what that might look like, but I want the Sam
Kelly version, like, what is this invisible load? What is
it that actually needs to be noticed?
Speaker 6 (08:13):
Yes, okay, So the invisible load is not the fact
that you're doing the dishes. It's not the physical task itself.
It's the fact that you have five hundred tabs open
in your brain simultaneously while you're doing the dishes. It's
the way that you are tracking whether or not you're
running out of detergent for the dishes. It's the fact
(08:36):
that you know where everything goes in the kitchen and
nobody else does. Like you know where the cake pan goes,
You know where like the obscure things go. It's the
fact that you know how long a cycle takes of
dishes before it needs to be unloaded. It's the fact
that you know that you are planning a certain meal
tomorrow night that you need a certain kitchen utenial for
(08:58):
and it's currently in the dish washer and it needs
to be cleaned in order for you to use it tomorrow,
So it's tracking all these things. The physical load or
the mental load is the invisible. It's like the engine
under the hood that makes all the physical tasks possible.
And it's the type of thing that you have no
idea how all consuming and endless it is until you're
(09:23):
the one that's being the engine for the entire family,
moving the whole car forward.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
This correcks me up because you're talking about like thinking
ahead and planning ahead, and this just past weekend. I
was like, Oh, anybody have any dinner ideas? And my
husband's like, very innocently, like it's not his fault, and
he's like, how about this like chipottle beef resbee with tacos?
And I'm like my head exploded because I'm like, do
you understand that's a slow cooker recipe and we don't
even have the ingredients and I don't plan to go
to the store because I have to take this ki
(09:49):
into a plate and like like.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
Here's that that?
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Yeah, And I don't want to even say it's the planning.
It's like the orchestration and like understanding how all the
pieces kind of like fit to yes.
Speaker 6 (10:00):
Right, Well, it's like the anticipating of needs, and in
order to anticipate needs, you have to have an awareness
of what the needs are to begin with. So when
people say, well, just tell me what I need to
do and make me a list, which like we'll talk
about like that's exactly like what a chour list is.
Speaker 5 (10:19):
Just tell me what to do, mom.
Speaker 7 (10:21):
I mean kids that may or may not actually do
it right.
Speaker 6 (10:23):
Just make me a list and I'll do it. The
amount of work mental work, cognitive like work that has
to go into making the list is really really significant,
and that's the stuff that wears.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
On us all the time.
Speaker 6 (10:38):
And it's also it's also be really demoralizing because it's
like nobody sees that work. You're for sure not getting
like a parade for the fact that you're doing that work.
And so then when you're like grumpy or resentful or
just like so worn down and at the end of
your rope and everyone's like, what's wrong with you?
Speaker 5 (10:58):
Can't you just relax?
Speaker 7 (10:59):
What's going on? It's like.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
I love it, I absolutely love it. I think a
lot of listeners know exactly what you're talking about, and
it is hard to put into words, but I think
you're giving us a really valuable way of thinking about it.
So that's perfect. Let's step over to the concept of noticing.
And this is what actually initially struck a chord with me.
I heard you. I don't know if it was you
or just her talking about you, but Kendra Dauchy of
(11:24):
The Lazy Genius love her work, and she had an
episode where she talked all about how she learned about
your stuff and how the key for her was finding
out that your goal is to not just Again, it's
not teaching people to check things off of the list
because that serves no one, and then the person making
the list is still tearing their hair out because they're
the ones making the list, but rather getting behind it
(11:45):
to getting kids to notice. And that was like one
of the first times I had actually heard noticing used
in that way. How did you come up with that concept?
And what does it mean to notice?
Speaker 6 (11:57):
Yeah, so about let's see two years ago now, I
hit a breaking point. I had been married at that
point to my husband for eleven years, and it got
to the point where I just could not do everything
that was expected of me to do every single day,
(12:19):
and I started to subfront the then inequity in my
own relationship with my husband, and it was a very,
very long, slow process. We worked on it really really
intently for over a year. We're still working on it
because I feel like it's a journey, not a destination together,
and so we started working on it for like the years, okay,
(12:44):
and at that point it had gotten a lot better.
So then it's a Sriday night, I'm making a Saturday
morning chort list for my kids, like a to do list,
and I just have this huge moment and I drop
the magic marker through the floor and I was like,
what am I doing. I just spent the last year
of my life teaching my husband how to not rely
(13:08):
on me to notice what needs to be done in
the home and do it, and how to take initiative
and be proactive and not need me to give him
in a list, a list or assignments. But I am
teaching my kids to rely on me to give them
a list and make it, make them assignments.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
So the next morning.
Speaker 6 (13:27):
I said, hey, guys, there's some things that need to
be done in the home. I'm not going to give
you a list, because here's what we're going to do.
And I just made up this term called notice and do.
You're going to notice what needs to happen, and then
we're going to do it. And I think it's important,
Like you said, like, what does noticing mean?
Speaker 5 (13:43):
We, especially as.
Speaker 6 (13:45):
Women, we know what noticing means inside and out because
we're the ones that are by default oftentimes expected to
be the noticers. So just because we know how to
do something doesn't mean our kids are automatically going to
know how to do it, So we need to teach them.
Is absolutely a teachable skill when you know how to
(14:05):
do it and the simple way to do it. So
I taught them how to notice. I taught them how
to see different things that need to be done in
the home, whether it's a bathroom countertop that needs to
be sprayed down or a floor that can be vacuumed,
or how to unload a dishwasher. How to see when
a dishwasher needs to be unloaded and then take the
(14:27):
initiatives to do it without me saying, hey, the dishwasher's son,
can you go unload it. I taught them a concept
called we just call it resetting a room, So how
to get a room back to like a baseline. We
call it like clean enough quote unquote levels, because we're
not going for perfection here, but we are going for improvement.
(14:47):
And then what started to happen was I went from
essentially like a one mom band to an entire full
family team of capable humans who are able to take
initiative and help manage not only the physical paths of
the home, but carry their own mental load of seeing
(15:08):
for themselves what needs to be happened, and then do
it without relying on me.
Speaker 5 (15:12):
And it was a life.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Changing, amazing Well, we're going to take a quick break
and when we come back, we're going to talk about
some specific scenarios. And even though I know you can't
reveal all because I'm sure you share details in your course.
Speaker 7 (15:25):
Let's talk about it.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
Awesome, all right, Well we'll be right back. All right,
We are back, and Sam has shared her amazing story
of how she was able to get her kids, specifically
(15:47):
to start noticing and the changes that that caused around
her home, which sound amazing. So I'm sure all of
us listening are like me and are like, hmmm, how
can I make that happen? So, if you had to
summarize is your method? Obviously you go into much more
detail in your course, give us the kind of like
the free version. I want to know, how do you
get kids to notice?
Speaker 6 (16:08):
Yes, let's get into it. Okay, So it's a really
simple three step process. One you're going to teach your
kids age appropriate cleaning skills, and I'll tell you the
system for that. Two you're going to teach your kids
noticing skills. This is where the proactive initiative is taking
things comes into play. And then three we're going to
do cycle breaking conversations. And this is really important because
(16:31):
when kids understand the deeper why behind all of this,
like not just because we're cleaning the house because I
said so, but that there are real intentional reasons behind
why we are shifting away from the tor chart and
proactively noticing in the home, it starts to shift how
kids think. So again that's the cleaning skills, noticing skills,
(16:52):
and then the cycle breaking conversations. So the way that
I teach the cleaning skills is through daily responsibilit these
that are consistent that they can have ownership over every
single day. So this can be specific to each child,
or you can have all of your kids do the
same things. It's totally flexible depending on your kids' ages,
(17:14):
and needs, and we call it the big three. So,
for example, my kid's big three is they are responsible
every day for making their beds. They are responsible for
noticing whether or not the dishwasher needs to be unloaded,
and then if it does need to be unloaded, they
each take a section to unload and noticing and managing
the entirety of their own laundry so that seeing when
(17:37):
it needs to go in the wash, running a cycle,
tracking when it needs to be switched over to the dryer,
putting it in the dryer, taking it out the dryer
when it's done, sorting, and folding. So every single day
they do their big three. It's off my plate. I
don't have to worry about it. They just know that
that is the expectation. And this is the part that's
(17:58):
actually most similar to the church, which is nice because
it gives them a sense of familiarity, like we're not
completely pulling the rug out from underneath them and being
like and now we're going.
Speaker 8 (18:08):
To do something completely different than you've never done before.
There's kind of a sense of safety and that familiarity
of like, oh yeah, like this is somewhat familiar, like
I've done this before.
Speaker 5 (18:19):
And it kind of has that element of.
Speaker 6 (18:20):
Fox checking, with the difference that I am not the
one saying have you done your laundry? You need to
do the laundry. Remember, it needs to be switched over.
Not to say that in the beginning, there's not reminders
and we're not teaching them because it's a process, but
we're putting the emphasis on the noticing. So if a
kid comes to me and it's like, hey, Mom, do
(18:40):
I do I need to put a lot of.
Speaker 5 (18:42):
La laundry in?
Speaker 7 (18:43):
I'm like, I don't know, have you noticed it?
Speaker 6 (18:45):
Remember, noticing is a huge part of the work. So
just little phrases like that that really really emphasize the
importance of noticing.
Speaker 5 (18:55):
And sometimes for.
Speaker 6 (18:57):
Example, like laundry, my kids don't need to run a
load of laundry every day because they're not generating that
much laundry, but we still practice checking every day to
see if it needs to be done, and that's a
huge part of the noticing. So that's the big three Again,
it can be anything you want. So I've had some
people say, like their kids big three is taking their
(19:21):
shoes off and putting their shoes.
Speaker 5 (19:22):
Away, their backpack away, water bottle.
Speaker 6 (19:24):
Away after school, making sure they clear the dishes after
they eat, and it like.
Speaker 5 (19:32):
Tidying their roots.
Speaker 6 (19:34):
It can be anything. So that's the big three. Then
the way we teach the noticing is in addition to
their daily big three, they do one notice and do
of their shoesing, and in the course I teach how
to show them how to notice, so they can start
learning that skill. But the cool thing is then you're
(19:56):
giving them the freedom and the independence to choose whatever
it is that they want to proactively choose to notice,
so they have a really big element of control and
they get to it can be different every day, it
can be the same every day, whatever it is they
want to do. And then the cycle breaking script is
(20:17):
where we talk about kind of big concepts like society,
societal expectations that are gender for men and women in relationships.
Speaker 5 (20:28):
We talk about what burnout.
Speaker 6 (20:30):
Means, we talk about what being a cycle breaker means,
we talk about what inequity in partnerships looks like. But
we do it in ways that are very very simple,
understandable and age appropriate for kids. So they start having
these light bulb moments like oh, I didn't know that
(20:50):
as a girl, like my daughter, I have a daughter
who's twelve and a daughter who's ten, So I don't
tell my daughters that when they grow up side culture
is going to expect them to be that invisible engine
under the hood. And what happens when you're the invisible
engine under the hood. They're going to walk into the
same situation that so many of us are in where
(21:11):
we wake up one morning and we're like, what, like,
what is happening? I Am being crushed and no one
can see it or understand it. And for my son,
who's just he's almost seven next month, he will one
hundred percent walk into relationship expecting, right if he's going
to head of a normative relationship, expecting the woman to do
it all. So we have to give them the language
(21:35):
to understand the importance of this and why we're doing
it differently, because it's not mom's job to do everything,
because we are in a family team, and family teams
work all together, and that my son is just as
capable of carrying the mental load as women, as his sisters,
as his mom. We talk about what mental load means.
(21:55):
So all of these three pieces work together, and that's
where the magic happens en. That's where everything starts to shift.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
I love your emphasis on like making sure you're teaching
both genders and explaining the inequities to both, because it's
not enough to be like, oh, well, empower our girls,
Like no, that doesn't help. It's actually probably even more
important to educate the other side. So yeah, I love
that you include that. I'm curious what happens when there's
failure because I'm thinking about my own home here, and
(22:26):
if I were like, I mean, obviously, it's probably less
likely if you're following all the steps and doing things
in a step wise fashion. But if tomorrow I was
like middle child, you're going to notice your laundry, there
would be failure, and then there would be like a
day where he's like, I have soccer and I have
no clean uniform. What do I do? Is like part
of the training, like letting them fail or like how
(22:47):
do you address it when it just doesn't happen?
Speaker 7 (22:50):
Oh, that's such a good question.
Speaker 6 (22:52):
So first, I would reframe it that we're not failing,
we're learning. So second, like and absolutely it's going to
be a process, and for us as women, it's so
so understandable that like we're exhausted, we're burnt out, we're done.
The thought of having our kids proactively noticed feels like
a fantasy and a dream, and we want it to
happen like this because we are just at the end
(23:14):
of our rope. We have to understand that it is
a like learning process, just like I say, you taught
your kids to tie your shoes, want tire your shoes,
tie their shoes, or read, or learn social skills to
make friends, to step by step process and in the
course I talk to you and teach you how to
take individual steps where we teach them in small ways,
(23:39):
every single step that needs to happen. While also, and
this is a huge part managing our own expectations because
like I said, we really really want it to happen immediately,
but that's not our kids' job to fulfill for us,
like that's our stuff. And so we manage our expectations
with the understanding that this will happen and it's a
process and going to learn together, then it will happen.
(24:04):
So for example, with like your son and the laundry,
instead of saying, okay, you're gonna notice your laundry and
go right like we need to be able to kind
of like link ons with him and say let me
show you. So let's go and see your laundry baskets.
When your laundry basket gets like this, bole, that's about
(24:26):
the time when you're gonna want to put it in
the washing machine. This is how you put it in
the washing machine. This is how you put the soap in.
This is how you manage the buttons or whatever. The
what am I trying to think of, Like the.
Speaker 5 (24:41):
Setting, This is how you do the settings.
Speaker 6 (24:44):
It will normally wash for this much time. So if
you have a game that you need to have a
clean soccer jersey for or whatever, you can't put the
start the wash thirty minutes before because it won't be
ready in time. Again, these are things that like we
are still no more kids know. They don't know because
we've been the one doing it. So you say I
(25:05):
would start it the day before or in the morning.
Let's figure out a time together right now so we
can set them up for success. When is going to
be the best time to do that, And then we
can give them small reminders, small encouragement, especially in the beginning,
with the understanding that there's still just learning. So you
(25:25):
could be like, hey, have you noticed your laundry for today,
yet instead of saying, did you do your laundry? Is
your soccer jersey queen? Have you gone and noticed where
your laundry tamper is at? Or like, oh, just as
a reminder tomorrow you have your games, have you noticed
whether or not you have a clean shirt?
Speaker 5 (25:45):
And then what do you need to do after that?
Speaker 6 (25:48):
So you're like kind of giving them hints so they
are able to fill in the blank and take some
of that ownership and responsibility slowly over time.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
With the hopes that ultimately they'll see the game on
the calendar be able to absolutely.
Speaker 6 (26:02):
But it's just like lifting weights. And I think especially
with older kids, we think will like this is like
a fifteen year old kid like he should be This
is why I hear from parents of teens especially all
the time here, she should be able to do this,
and when we approach her from gop face instead of
they are learning, they don't know and they're trying their best,
(26:24):
like just assuming the best, whether or not they should
be able to do it, quote unquote, it's kind of irrelevant.
We're teaching them and we're just going to start from
square one. So just like I said, lifting weights, Like,
just because I'm a thirty year old not thirty, I'm
almost forty.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
We can rock down.
Speaker 5 (26:43):
Yeah, I'm almost forty.
Speaker 6 (26:45):
Because I'm a forty year old woman, Should I be
able to lift fifty pound weights and do like, you know,
three sets of twenty right off the bat.
Speaker 5 (26:54):
I don't know, but probably not if.
Speaker 7 (26:56):
I'm not used to doing it.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
So I'm going to start with the fight weight and
I'm going to lift those five pound weights for a while,
and then I'm going to gradually, as my muscles grow,
my capabilities grow, I'm going to like increase the weight.
So start small, keep your expectations in check, because again,
that's about us, it's not about them, and slowly, over
time teach them.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
I love it. We're going to take another quick break
and then we're going to talk about two very different
age groups, toddlers and adults. All right, we are back,
(27:40):
and I was very impressed looking at your stuff that
this isn't just about teens. This is about little kids,
and how when you start doing these lessons early you
can achieve some really impressive noticing and actual helping in
really young ones and lass of where our listeners are
in those stages so can you talk a little bit
about how these tactics apply to toddlers and preschoolers.
Speaker 6 (28:04):
Totally, Littles are so fun because they're so eager to please,
and it's the stage in life where all of this
can feel like a gain to them and parents, especially
like if John was like eighteen months old, Like I
had somebody DM me yesterday and she was like my
eighteen month old and not unloads MPs all the garbages
(28:28):
in our house.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
Now an eighteen.
Speaker 6 (28:30):
Month old and I don't have to tell them to
do it. The other day, I just saw them dragging
a garbage out to the garbage can, just all.
Speaker 5 (28:36):
On their own.
Speaker 6 (28:37):
So one of the ways that we teach younger kids,
especially the concept of noticing, because they might not know
what the word noticing means, is you can say, hey,
I want to teach you the fun thing, and we're
going to go clean up the playrooms, but we're going
to do it in a little bit of a different way.
We're going to notice what needs to be cleaned up,
(28:58):
and I'm going to see if you can notice what
to be cleaned up without me telling you. Now, noticing
is just a special way of saying, see So we're
going to take our noticing goggles and I just like
cut my hands and put them over my eyes like
glasses or goggles, and we're gonna look with our special
noticing goggles on together, and we're going to see what
(29:18):
needs to be put away. And if you notice something,
you can yell notice and run and grab and put
it away, or you can beep like a robot, like
a metal detector like baby ba baby, and then go
and put it away. So we're going to start by
looking at the floor. Is there anything you're noticing with
your noticing goggles put away on this floor? Oh, I'm
noticing that those blocks need to be put in the
(29:41):
block box. Let's go notice those blocks and put away.
So we're just using the word again and again and
again instead of like, let's go put the blocks away,
like you notice, you notice those blocks needed to be
put away, Now let's go do it. And then oh okay,
now sometimes we need to look a little bit higher.
Speaker 7 (29:57):
Than the floor.
Speaker 6 (29:57):
Let's look at the show, or let's look on the couch.
Is there anything on the couch that isn't where it
should be. Let's keep looking with our noticing goggles. So
that's a really really simple way to just teach the
concept of noticing to little and then we can start
talking about let's go in another realm of the house
and see what things are to notice, or as you're
(30:18):
doing things in the kitchen, just narrating what you're doing
and what you're noticing, so you can start to make
what is then previously invisible visible to them. And it's
going to sound like you're a little bit crazy at first,
and that's okay, but you're just helping them see by
verbalizing your thought process. So if you're doing like after dinner,
(30:39):
cleenus like, hey, let's do some noticing together to reset
this kitchen. Okay, I'm noticing that there's plates that are out,
so I'm going to take the place and put them
in the sync. I'm noticing that the milk jug is out.
I'm going to put the milk jug back in the fridge.
I'm noticing that there's crumbs all over the counters. Let
me show you this fun way where you could kind
of use your hand along the counter to free them,
(31:01):
and then when we have the crowmbs, we're going to
go put them in the garbage can. So really taking
it step by step, breaking it down for them and
just saying come do this with me and showing them
the process instead of giving them as.
Speaker 5 (31:16):
Silence and saying you do this, you do this, you
do this.
Speaker 6 (31:19):
You're really giving them the opportunity to say, this is
how you see what needs to happen for yourself, because
this is how I'm seeing for yourself. It's not magic,
it's not rocket science, but we do need to kind
of pull back the curtain in our brain so kids
can start to understand all of the thought process that
happens behind the noticing, love.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
It, and love that you are making that work even
with toddlers, And I like the gamification idea because they're
probably more likely to respond to that if there's an
element of fun, because we all know the eighteen month
olds do what eighteen month olds want, and there's not
a lot of way to convince them, but if you
make it enticing enough and make it fun enough, and
that would be a great way to get them to
(32:02):
make it a have it. So that's awesome. We're going
to go to the other end of the spectrum because
a lot of your methods do kind of apply to kids.
But then there is the partner question, and I'm not, like,
you know, specifically speaking about my partner, even though he
did ask me to make a slow cooker meal at
two pm that required no, I'm just kidding. He really
meant well, and we're going to make it this weekend.
(32:23):
So it was a great idea. But how do you
help partners who might have some asymmetry, let's say, in
the noticing asymmetry?
Speaker 6 (32:32):
I like that, Okay, So first we're going to understand
the teaching our kids how to notice, and the relationship
we have with the process there with them with children
is entirely separate and different from teaching an adult partner
to notice. I think also, too, it's important to validate
(32:54):
the rage and just the inherent and fairness that comes
with the fact that we are the ones who are
doing all the noticing. And then also simultaneously we have
to supposedly teach adult men how to do this as well. Like,
there's an element of resentment there, and I think it's okay.
(33:16):
Not I think I know it's okay to feel well, however,
you need to feel about that, Like you don't need
to like swelter your rage about that because it sucks.
So teaching adults is entirely different from teaching kids, and
for me, it looked like having hard conversations with my
(33:37):
partner and having those conversations a lot, and having check
in and having him watch other creator's content on Instagram
that talks specifically to the adult side of this. So
it wasn't all on me to be the educator. So
(33:59):
he could take initiative and practice take the initiative for
himself of watching these creators content. So he put like,
for example, a reminder on his phone every day. I
was like, every day at two pm, I need to
go to this account, in this account and watch their
content for the day.
Speaker 5 (34:15):
So I can. So it's like they don't know what they.
Speaker 6 (34:18):
Don't know, and they have been raised in the exact
same patriarchal society that we have been raised in, and
so there it takes time to start having an input
of different information so they can start having an awareness
and understanding. So that was one way that he took
the initiative to educate himself over.
Speaker 7 (34:37):
A long period of time.
Speaker 6 (34:38):
He also took the initiative to put reminders on his phone.
Speaker 5 (34:42):
To have a weekly checking with me.
Speaker 6 (34:45):
So it wasn't on me to be like, Hey, it's
Wednesday at seven, could we talk and just kind of
see like where the progress has been, where we still
need to do some improvement or work on it. So
he took the initiative to say to approach me and say, hey, Wednesday,
se let's talk about it.
Speaker 5 (35:01):
What am I doing well?
Speaker 6 (35:02):
What can still be improved?
Speaker 5 (35:04):
And then really really.
Speaker 6 (35:06):
Another key piece was focusing on the fact that when
I came to him, one of his biggest defenses was
I feel like you're saying I'm not good enough. And
so that was something that we really had to talk about.
And again I had to say, no, no, no, don't
go there, don't do that. That is not what I
am saying. I am not saying you're not good enough.
(35:27):
I am saying there are skills that you do not
currently have that in some ways no fault of your own,
because you have been raised in the exact same way
I have been raised, but on this opposite end of
the spectrum. So like, we are in this together. The
enemy is not you. This is not me versus you.
The enemy is the patriarchal messages and societal gender based
(35:48):
expectations that we have been given. And together we are
going to fight this and like the deeply rooted stuff
and we're going to unroot it together, and this is
how we're going to do it, me and you together,
So really approaching it from that kind of like team based,
arm in arm again saying of like we got this,
(36:10):
so it doesn't have to always go to I'm not
enough for you, I'm not good enough I like, no
matter how hard I tried it like no, no, no, nope,
we're not doing that.
Speaker 5 (36:19):
We're not doing that. Member.
Speaker 6 (36:20):
This is me and you against this other thing. And
at the end of the day, like, I hate that
this even has to be said. But if your partner,
like we are talking about your quality of life here,
and not having an equitable partnership deeply, deeply, deeply negatively
impacts your quality of life. And if your partner does
(36:41):
not care about your quality of life enough to educate
himself enough to step up enough to even try, like
we're not again, we're not going for perfection. We're just
going for good, safe efforts. If he doesn't even care
enough about that to try them, Like, there's deeper rooted
problems that need to be addressed that go past just
the division of domestic labor.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Awesome. I think so many valuable takeaways there and yeah,
just powerful stuff. I think that you need to have
another course. Hopefully that one's coming.
Speaker 6 (37:13):
Maybe we are, We're working on it.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
That is awesome. Do you in the meantime, and I
know we have to wrap things up, but do you
have any creators or authors like the one that came
to mind first was maybe like Eve Rodsky, the author
of fair Play, who we've had as a guest on
our show as well. Are there others that like you've
directed people too, or that your husband was pulling up
on Instagram?
Speaker 5 (37:36):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (37:37):
Okay, so three right off the bat page Colonnel. Her
account is she is a page turner. She talks a
lot about this, especially in regards to working mom.
Speaker 5 (37:50):
I would also say, Zach.
Speaker 6 (37:52):
I'm trying to get his exact handle here, Zach Watson.
His account is real Zach Think Share, and he talks
about it from a man's perspective. He calls himself a
recovering man child and his videos are awesome and is
really really informative coming from like again, the man's perspective
(38:12):
side of things. And then another one is Laura Danger
and her handle is I think it's just Laura Danger.
Speaker 7 (38:21):
Hold on, let me see.
Speaker 6 (38:22):
Oh it's not word. Her handle is that darn chat.
And she talked a lot about mental load, invisible labor,
and how it shows up in a lot of different ways,
like in our society, in our world, and challenging different
assumptions that we have and that we've all grown up with,
and how these very very small scenes end up actually
(38:44):
being big scenes. So again, it's all different sides of it.
Their content is really short, really bite sized, really manageable,
and that's why I found it helpful for him to
just consume just a few minutes every day from a
few different voices, so it wasn't all on me to
do the massive mental and emotional labor of explaining this all.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
Now awesome, I love that. Well, do you have a
love of the week for us? Sam? I guess I
can always start, just because I'd like to give our
guests a minute to kind of like think of what
you're going to come up with. So I'm going to
be like super basic and just say that, like this
time of year, it's not fall at all, and therefore
(39:31):
I want to bake all the fall things. So I
made sweet potato muffins, and it was like, made me
so happy because I can. I live in Florida, so
I'm like, I can pretend it's not disgusting out and
then we have some sort of seasonality and it made
me so happy. So sweet potato muffins for the wind.
Speaker 5 (39:46):
I love that.
Speaker 6 (39:47):
I would think mine would be. We have a lot
of beautiful bike trails around where we live, and normally
I like to do bike rides in the evening, but
now that it's cooling down just a little bit, I
can go and do a quick bike right during the
day in the sunshine, and it is just like life giving.
Speaker 5 (40:03):
I love riding my bike.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
I love it. I won't take it as you've rubbing
it in And I'm just kidding. We have no fall.
I'm totally kidding. Tell our listeners where they can find you,
including maybe some upcoming projects you've hinted that, but also
where they can get their hands on this audio course
that everybody is raving about.
Speaker 5 (40:22):
Yes, absolutely so.
Speaker 6 (40:23):
I'm on Instagram at sam kelly Underscore World. On there
you can find the links in my bio. You can
get a free guide which will give you the basic
structure of how to do this talks about, like we said,
the Big Three, how to get your kids to notice,
So I would hop on that Big Guy three Big
Guy Free guide in the link in my bio. There
is also a weight list. I open the course once
(40:45):
a quarter. We just barely close it for enrollment, so
it will be opening again in November. If you want
to hop on the weight list and link in my bio,
that's where you're going to get a special exclusive discount
when it opens. You will also get first access and
first to know.
Speaker 7 (40:59):
When it opens. And no, my and I am also.
Speaker 6 (41:03):
Working on a book, so we're finishing up the book
proposal right now and then we're going to be submitting
it to publishers. That is a huge long project though,
so we're looking at like twenty twenty seven, but that's
something that's in the works as well.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Awesome, Well congrats Sam. I think you struck a chord
here and I think our listeners are going to love this,
so we so appreciate you coming on.
Speaker 7 (41:24):
Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Well we are back, Sarah. I was interviewing Sam Kelly
about how to create little cycle breakers, the kids who
notice what needs to be done around the house and
help out with it. So lots of great tips there.
This week's listener question comes from someone who wants to
talk about doing fun things with teens. So, how do
(41:47):
you deal with teens not wanting to do a bunch
of stuff with their families? Are generally spending less time
with us because they're so busy with school and activities.
Obviously it's great for kids to be involved with things.
This listener reports that she does plan trips and a
couple of family outings on occasion, but overall, the loss
of time with them is hard, along with the idea
that they won't be living at home much longer. So
(42:08):
what our way is to spend time with big kids
that they will actually go for?
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Sarah?
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Yeah, so, well, first, I just think it's important to
acknowledge that this is very much normal. It is not
an indicator that your family dynamics are bad or that
you're doing the wrong thing. Like at a certain point,
many teens are going to be attracted more to things
in like the friend and peer sphere and less excited
about doing things with family. Of course, there's exceptions, but
(42:36):
that's like in the books I've read so far, I'm
like kind of conditioned to expect that, and I think
not taking things personally is probably part of what needs
to happen, and then savoring the family time when it
does happen. I think family trips are awesome for this because,
I mean, if everyone's flown to Montana together, you've got
a captive audience for family activities. But also making sure
(42:57):
that those trips are things that your kids are excited about.
And then I also feel like you can pay attention
to times you have with kids that aren't necessarily an activity,
but it can still add up to a lot of time.
Time in the car. For example, you can have some
great conversations, you can listen to their music, you can
talk about what's going on, or even like if they
have a sports event and you end up having to
(43:18):
accompany them to a tournament that's far away, Like that's
a lot of quality time. It might not be the
quote together in as family outing that you plan when
everybody was little, but it absolutely still counts and you know,
should be savored and appreciated for what it is.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yeah, I mean, I think doing one on one time
for things that kid wants to do are great. So trips, excursions, concerts,
just runs to Starbucks or whatever their treat is. Like,
you know, if they love going to Starbucks, then probably
they're willing to go with mom to Starbucks, especially if
you're paying, So that is something you can do. Also,
(43:54):
just trying to linger when you can, Like if a
kid is talking to you at dinner, much as we
want everyone to do the dishes, you don't have to
get up and do it right. Then you can sit
there and just sit for a while and let the
conversation keep going and get to clearing the table a
little bit later, because that can all possibly wait. So
just kind of noticing when there is a moment of
(44:16):
connection and then letting it keep going for a reasonable
amount of time can be good. But yeah, I think
there's nothing wrong with kids wanting independence. I think there's
actually been some interesting shifts of kids having less independence
these days, and I don't know if that's all a
great thing. I mean, it's nice that kids are probably
(44:38):
closer to their parents now than they were in past generations,
but at some point we all do need to be
our own, independent adult people. So I was quite happy
that my four older kids this summer all got at
least a week away from home to kind of experience
their life apart from us and sort of get to
(44:58):
know themselves in a situation that is not at home.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
I think that's good for them.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
But of course I love spending time with them when
I can as well, So we've been doing a lot
of things when we can or Olivia Roduno concerts, Starbucks trips. Yeah,
one thing I would say, I heard this step. I
haven't really tried this yet, but if your kid has
a tendency to just put their headphones on when they're
in the car, like put their AirPods in their ear
and listen to their music, suggest that they be the
(45:24):
DJ for the car and that you all listen to
whatever it is that they would be listening into their headphones. Now,
if it turns out that what they're listening to is
like horrible, misogynistic, terrible violent stuff, then obviously you have
to k have a conversation about that. And you're like,
I would prefer you'd be not listening to that, and
we're definitely not listening to this as a group. But
(45:45):
that's probably a conversation that should be had in general
as well. But as long as their music is not
so terrible, probably they could be the DJ for the
car and that would at least get the AirPods out
and bring the possibility of spending the moment together in
the car.
Speaker 3 (46:02):
Our morning djit we do that exact same thing. So
I actually usually hand the kids the phone and they'll
like pick the next song and they like to alternate
and the mixes we have. Cameron's into the song the
Neil Diamond classic Sweet Caroline, which he sings.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Well, that's fun to sing a lot like Exact.
Speaker 3 (46:18):
Boy Party except an Opti hire. Then it will be
sometime it's like the funniest thing I've ever heard, and
then Genevieve's like Barbie soundtrack. Then Annabel is playing her
supreen and carpet. I mean it is like just the
funniest like mix. There's a lot of laughter and it's
a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
So yes, yeah, well that sounds great.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
That sounds great.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
Good way to get older kids involved and I'll be
experiencing it together.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Well, this has been best of both worlds.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
We'll be back next week with more and making work
and life fit together.
Speaker 3 (46:47):
Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the
shoebox dot com or at the underscore shoebox on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
And you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please
join us next time for more on making work and
life work together
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
and speaker.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician,
writer and course creator. We are two working parents who
love our careers and our families.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.
From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.
We want you to get the most out of life.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
This episode is airing in late September of twenty twenty four.
Sarah is going to be interviewing Sam Kelly, who is
a former therapist who now has a business where she
teaches a course called Little Cycle Breakers, which is about
getting kids to notice what needs doing and take more
response ability at home. So I'm sure we have a
lot of listeners who think that sounds like a great idea.
(01:04):
I w'd love to have more people who live with
us participate in taking care of things. So Sarah is
noticing what needs to be done and participating in household life,
something that happens a lot in your house.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Not at all, I think been noticing in particular is
very much not happening, and I do feel like it's
very easy to be like I'm in the little kid phase.
I'm in the little kid phase. My kids can't do anything,
and then like you look up and you're like, we
are not in that phase. They could have been doing
so much and years have gone by. I mean, I
(01:42):
don't feel like there's a lot of noticing that goes on,
and I'd really like to work towards that. Plus just
having people have some more regular responsibilities compared to what
we have going on right now. Like if I'm cooking
dinner on Sunday, I want kids to be like, oh,
let me set the table and put the waters on
the table, or let's help clean up after the meal.
I want to get my backpack stuff ready so then
(02:04):
I'm not freaking out in the morning like maybe I do.
So I am super super excited for this interview and
learning more from Sam because I actually feel like we're
at the prime moment to work on some of these things.
I mean, maybe she would say we were kind of
late because I think some of her stuff is geared
to younger kids, but still sure, there's a lot we
can benefit from.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah, I got to say, I mean, I love the
idea of people noticing and doing stuff, and I think
that's great when it happens, I would say you probably
don't have to rely on the noticing. If noticing is
the hoop you're trying to get through, that may be
a really challenging one to do. However, if your goal
(02:42):
is just to get the kids to help more around
the house, getting your head around the idea of just
asking more for them to do, Like my kids almost
never turned down a direct request, Like it would take
a lot for somebody to be like, if I'm like,
empty the dishwasher please, for them to be like, no,
I won't, and that would cause a real issue. So
(03:05):
I need to just be like, would you please empty
the dishwasher, or let's all clear the table together, or
why don't you go do the pots and pans and
you do this part? Or all right, kids, you need
to go help take out the trash right now, or
the cleaning service is coming tomorrow, so your room floors
need to be picked up, because otherwise no one's responsible
(03:25):
for where your stuff winds up. That's not going to
be my fault when things are are lost, or if
you would like your laundry done, great, but it needs
to be in the laundry room by nine am this morning,
otherwise it will not be happening today. So you know,
I think you can just calmly ask for things. Again,
would it be great if they noticed and like just
(03:47):
did it. Yeah, But there are also other ways to
get more help instead of just hoping that the noticing
will happen.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
And that's even hard sometimes. I mean, I'm a little
jealous that you can just ask someone nicely to please
unload the dishwasher and it will happen. I wish I
could say that it's true. In our house, I might
get a know, I might get my question ignored. I
mean usually after repeated requests, perhaps an escalating tone, it
might happen, but not quickly. And I really do feel
(04:18):
like that is to some extent just our fault, like
we just didn't build that into the culture of you
guys need to help us with stuff, and I feel
like it's time.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
So yeah, I would also say, I mean sometimes the pushback,
that way people try to push back is say, well,
why didn't you ask so and so or so and
so hasn't done anything today. And the problem is, if
there are like four older kids, there's a lot of
people you could point out to maybe it's been not
doing anything today or something like that, and you know,
(04:50):
I have to come up with a calm answer to that,
which is just that I will ask them to do
something else and I am asking you to do this,
and hopefully, you know, you just say that enough.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Eventually maybe we'll lessen it. We'll see.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
But I'm very excited to hear what Sam Kelly has
to say here as well.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
So let's go to the interview.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
Well, I am so excited today to be here with
Sam Kelly, who is the author of an audio course
that we're going to talk all about, and it has
to do with kids noticing, as you heard in the intro,
Laura and I are not the best about having our
kids help out around the home. And Sam, Laura and
I have kids ranging mes from like before to seventeen
(05:29):
between us, we have eight kids, so lots of experience
with parenting not knocking it out of the park in
terms of making sure the kids are helping and contributing
to our home life. So I'm super excited to chat.
So tell our listeners a little bit about your background
and your current career life, and I guess a little
bit how you got interested in this particular topic.
Speaker 5 (05:50):
Yeah, so, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 6 (05:52):
So I am a therapist turned coach for mothers. I
teach kids how to be proactive in the home, break
this side full of motherhood burnout, and to also break
the cycle of inequitable partnership. And you know, it's interesting.
Speaker 5 (06:06):
That you mentioned and I hear this a lot, like, Ah, like.
Speaker 6 (06:09):
I'm not the best at teaching my kids how to
help around the house.
Speaker 7 (06:12):
And I totally.
Speaker 6 (06:14):
Relate to that because when you are the parents, and
oftentimes as women, we are the default parent, and you're
working outside the home, you're basically working two jobs full
time and then some When we think about trying to
get our kids to be contributors in the home, it
can feel like just one more thing on our list.
(06:36):
And when we go to try to teach them.
Speaker 5 (06:38):
How to like unload the dishwasher, or.
Speaker 6 (06:40):
Here's how to clean up after yourself or sleep up
a mess, whatever it is, it can feel so much
harder to get them.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
To do it.
Speaker 6 (06:50):
And at the end of the day, I'm like, we
just need to get the stuff done, so I don't
have time to go to battle with my kids just
to get a bathroom cleaned. Five thousand things on my
to do list.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
I just need to get it cleaned.
Speaker 7 (07:03):
And it's so much.
Speaker 6 (07:04):
Easier if I am quicker, if I just do it myself.
And so I just want to give like so much
empathy and compassion because I have totally been there. I've
read all the stuff and I was like, that sounds great,
But I just need to be able to like move
on with my life because I have so many things
to do and having my kids like learn how to
do the dishes at the very bottom of my list.
So that is what we are doing, and we're doing
(07:27):
it in the easiest, simplest, most low list way for
busy parents because I am a busy working mom of
three and if it's not practical or realistic for my life,
it's not going to happen. So that is what we're doing,
and it's honestly changing home dynamics and women especially lives
(07:47):
everywhere all around the world because it is so practical
and doable and it actually works.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
I love it. Well, let's start a little bit from
the beginning and talk about what this kind of like
in visis load is because you mentioned the invisible load
and a lot of your work, and yet I want,
I mean, we all have kind of our idea of
what that might look like, but I want the Sam
Kelly version, like, what is this invisible load? What is
it that actually needs to be noticed?
Speaker 6 (08:13):
Yes, okay, So the invisible load is not the fact
that you're doing the dishes. It's not the physical task itself.
It's the fact that you have five hundred tabs open
in your brain simultaneously while you're doing the dishes. It's
the way that you are tracking whether or not you're
running out of detergent for the dishes. It's the fact
(08:36):
that you know where everything goes in the kitchen and
nobody else does. Like you know where the cake pan goes,
You know where like the obscure things go. It's the
fact that you know how long a cycle takes of
dishes before it needs to be unloaded. It's the fact
that you know that you are planning a certain meal
tomorrow night that you need a certain kitchen utenial for
(08:58):
and it's currently in the dish washer and it needs
to be cleaned in order for you to use it tomorrow,
So it's tracking all these things. The physical load or
the mental load is the invisible. It's like the engine
under the hood that makes all the physical tasks possible.
And it's the type of thing that you have no
idea how all consuming and endless it is until you're
(09:23):
the one that's being the engine for the entire family,
moving the whole car forward.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
This correcks me up because you're talking about like thinking
ahead and planning ahead, and this just past weekend. I
was like, Oh, anybody have any dinner ideas? And my
husband's like, very innocently, like it's not his fault, and
he's like, how about this like chipottle beef resbee with tacos?
And I'm like my head exploded because I'm like, do
you understand that's a slow cooker recipe and we don't
even have the ingredients and I don't plan to go
to the store because I have to take this ki
(09:49):
into a plate and like like.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
Here's that that?
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Yeah, And I don't want to even say it's the planning.
It's like the orchestration and like understanding how all the
pieces kind of like fit to yes.
Speaker 6 (10:00):
Right, Well, it's like the anticipating of needs, and in
order to anticipate needs, you have to have an awareness
of what the needs are to begin with. So when
people say, well, just tell me what I need to
do and make me a list, which like we'll talk
about like that's exactly like what a chour list is.
Speaker 5 (10:19):
Just tell me what to do, mom.
Speaker 7 (10:21):
I mean kids that may or may not actually do
it right.
Speaker 6 (10:23):
Just make me a list and I'll do it. The
amount of work mental work, cognitive like work that has
to go into making the list is really really significant,
and that's the stuff that wears.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
On us all the time.
Speaker 6 (10:38):
And it's also it's also be really demoralizing because it's
like nobody sees that work. You're for sure not getting
like a parade for the fact that you're doing that work.
And so then when you're like grumpy or resentful or
just like so worn down and at the end of
your rope and everyone's like, what's wrong with you?
Speaker 5 (10:58):
Can't you just relax?
Speaker 7 (10:59):
What's going on? It's like.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
I love it, I absolutely love it. I think a
lot of listeners know exactly what you're talking about, and
it is hard to put into words, but I think
you're giving us a really valuable way of thinking about it.
So that's perfect. Let's step over to the concept of noticing.
And this is what actually initially struck a chord with me.
I heard you. I don't know if it was you
or just her talking about you, but Kendra Dauchy of
(11:24):
The Lazy Genius love her work, and she had an
episode where she talked all about how she learned about
your stuff and how the key for her was finding
out that your goal is to not just Again, it's
not teaching people to check things off of the list
because that serves no one, and then the person making
the list is still tearing their hair out because they're
the ones making the list, but rather getting behind it
(11:45):
to getting kids to notice. And that was like one
of the first times I had actually heard noticing used
in that way. How did you come up with that concept?
And what does it mean to notice?
Speaker 6 (11:57):
Yeah, so about let's see two years ago now, I
hit a breaking point. I had been married at that
point to my husband for eleven years, and it got
to the point where I just could not do everything
that was expected of me to do every single day,
(12:19):
and I started to subfront the then inequity in my
own relationship with my husband, and it was a very,
very long, slow process. We worked on it really really
intently for over a year. We're still working on it
because I feel like it's a journey, not a destination together,
and so we started working on it for like the years, okay,
(12:44):
and at that point it had gotten a lot better.
So then it's a Sriday night, I'm making a Saturday
morning chort list for my kids, like a to do list,
and I just have this huge moment and I drop
the magic marker through the floor and I was like,
what am I doing. I just spent the last year
of my life teaching my husband how to not rely
(13:08):
on me to notice what needs to be done in
the home and do it, and how to take initiative
and be proactive and not need me to give him
in a list, a list or assignments. But I am
teaching my kids to rely on me to give them
a list and make it, make them assignments.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
So the next morning.
Speaker 6 (13:27):
I said, hey, guys, there's some things that need to
be done in the home. I'm not going to give
you a list, because here's what we're going to do.
And I just made up this term called notice and do.
You're going to notice what needs to happen, and then
we're going to do it. And I think it's important,
Like you said, like, what does noticing mean?
Speaker 5 (13:43):
We, especially as.
Speaker 6 (13:45):
Women, we know what noticing means inside and out because
we're the ones that are by default oftentimes expected to
be the noticers. So just because we know how to
do something doesn't mean our kids are automatically going to
know how to do it, So we need to teach them.
Is absolutely a teachable skill when you know how to
(14:05):
do it and the simple way to do it. So
I taught them how to notice. I taught them how
to see different things that need to be done in
the home, whether it's a bathroom countertop that needs to
be sprayed down or a floor that can be vacuumed,
or how to unload a dishwasher. How to see when
a dishwasher needs to be unloaded and then take the
(14:27):
initiatives to do it without me saying, hey, the dishwasher's son,
can you go unload it. I taught them a concept
called we just call it resetting a room, So how
to get a room back to like a baseline. We
call it like clean enough quote unquote levels, because we're
not going for perfection here, but we are going for improvement.
(14:47):
And then what started to happen was I went from
essentially like a one mom band to an entire full
family team of capable humans who are able to take
initiative and help manage not only the physical paths of
the home, but carry their own mental load of seeing
(15:08):
for themselves what needs to be happened, and then do
it without relying on me.
Speaker 5 (15:12):
And it was a life.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Changing, amazing Well, we're going to take a quick break
and when we come back, we're going to talk about
some specific scenarios. And even though I know you can't
reveal all because I'm sure you share details in your course.
Speaker 7 (15:25):
Let's talk about it.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
Awesome, all right, Well we'll be right back. All right,
We are back, and Sam has shared her amazing story
of how she was able to get her kids, specifically
(15:47):
to start noticing and the changes that that caused around
her home, which sound amazing. So I'm sure all of
us listening are like me and are like, hmmm, how
can I make that happen? So, if you had to
summarize is your method? Obviously you go into much more
detail in your course, give us the kind of like
the free version. I want to know, how do you
get kids to notice?
Speaker 6 (16:08):
Yes, let's get into it. Okay, So it's a really
simple three step process. One you're going to teach your
kids age appropriate cleaning skills, and I'll tell you the
system for that. Two you're going to teach your kids
noticing skills. This is where the proactive initiative is taking
things comes into play. And then three we're going to
do cycle breaking conversations. And this is really important because
(16:31):
when kids understand the deeper why behind all of this,
like not just because we're cleaning the house because I
said so, but that there are real intentional reasons behind
why we are shifting away from the tor chart and
proactively noticing in the home, it starts to shift how
kids think. So again that's the cleaning skills, noticing skills,
(16:52):
and then the cycle breaking conversations. So the way that
I teach the cleaning skills is through daily responsibilit these
that are consistent that they can have ownership over every
single day. So this can be specific to each child,
or you can have all of your kids do the
same things. It's totally flexible depending on your kids' ages,
(17:14):
and needs, and we call it the big three. So,
for example, my kid's big three is they are responsible
every day for making their beds. They are responsible for
noticing whether or not the dishwasher needs to be unloaded,
and then if it does need to be unloaded, they
each take a section to unload and noticing and managing
the entirety of their own laundry so that seeing when
(17:37):
it needs to go in the wash, running a cycle,
tracking when it needs to be switched over to the dryer,
putting it in the dryer, taking it out the dryer
when it's done, sorting, and folding. So every single day
they do their big three. It's off my plate. I
don't have to worry about it. They just know that
that is the expectation. And this is the part that's
(17:58):
actually most similar to the church, which is nice because
it gives them a sense of familiarity, like we're not
completely pulling the rug out from underneath them and being
like and now we're going.
Speaker 8 (18:08):
To do something completely different than you've never done before.
There's kind of a sense of safety and that familiarity
of like, oh yeah, like this is somewhat familiar, like
I've done this before.
Speaker 5 (18:19):
And it kind of has that element of.
Speaker 6 (18:20):
Fox checking, with the difference that I am not the
one saying have you done your laundry? You need to
do the laundry. Remember, it needs to be switched over.
Not to say that in the beginning, there's not reminders
and we're not teaching them because it's a process, but
we're putting the emphasis on the noticing. So if a
kid comes to me and it's like, hey, Mom, do
(18:40):
I do I need to put a lot of.
Speaker 5 (18:42):
La laundry in?
Speaker 7 (18:43):
I'm like, I don't know, have you noticed it?
Speaker 6 (18:45):
Remember, noticing is a huge part of the work. So
just little phrases like that that really really emphasize the
importance of noticing.
Speaker 5 (18:55):
And sometimes for.
Speaker 6 (18:57):
Example, like laundry, my kids don't need to run a
load of laundry every day because they're not generating that
much laundry, but we still practice checking every day to
see if it needs to be done, and that's a
huge part of the noticing. So that's the big three Again,
it can be anything you want. So I've had some
people say, like their kids big three is taking their
(19:21):
shoes off and putting their shoes.
Speaker 5 (19:22):
Away, their backpack away, water bottle.
Speaker 6 (19:24):
Away after school, making sure they clear the dishes after
they eat, and it like.
Speaker 5 (19:32):
Tidying their roots.
Speaker 6 (19:34):
It can be anything. So that's the big three. Then
the way we teach the noticing is in addition to
their daily big three, they do one notice and do
of their shoesing, and in the course I teach how
to show them how to notice, so they can start
learning that skill. But the cool thing is then you're
(19:56):
giving them the freedom and the independence to choose whatever
it is that they want to proactively choose to notice,
so they have a really big element of control and
they get to it can be different every day, it
can be the same every day, whatever it is they
want to do. And then the cycle breaking script is
(20:17):
where we talk about kind of big concepts like society,
societal expectations that are gender for men and women in relationships.
Speaker 5 (20:28):
We talk about what burnout.
Speaker 6 (20:30):
Means, we talk about what being a cycle breaker means,
we talk about what inequity in partnerships looks like. But
we do it in ways that are very very simple,
understandable and age appropriate for kids. So they start having
these light bulb moments like oh, I didn't know that
(20:50):
as a girl, like my daughter, I have a daughter
who's twelve and a daughter who's ten, So I don't
tell my daughters that when they grow up side culture
is going to expect them to be that invisible engine
under the hood. And what happens when you're the invisible
engine under the hood. They're going to walk into the
same situation that so many of us are in where
(21:11):
we wake up one morning and we're like, what, like,
what is happening? I Am being crushed and no one
can see it or understand it. And for my son,
who's just he's almost seven next month, he will one
hundred percent walk into relationship expecting, right if he's going
to head of a normative relationship, expecting the woman to do
it all. So we have to give them the language
(21:35):
to understand the importance of this and why we're doing
it differently, because it's not mom's job to do everything,
because we are in a family team, and family teams
work all together, and that my son is just as
capable of carrying the mental load as women, as his sisters,
as his mom. We talk about what mental load means.
(21:55):
So all of these three pieces work together, and that's
where the magic happens en. That's where everything starts to shift.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
I love your emphasis on like making sure you're teaching
both genders and explaining the inequities to both, because it's
not enough to be like, oh, well, empower our girls,
Like no, that doesn't help. It's actually probably even more
important to educate the other side. So yeah, I love
that you include that. I'm curious what happens when there's
failure because I'm thinking about my own home here, and
(22:26):
if I were like, I mean, obviously, it's probably less
likely if you're following all the steps and doing things
in a step wise fashion. But if tomorrow I was
like middle child, you're going to notice your laundry, there
would be failure, and then there would be like a
day where he's like, I have soccer and I have
no clean uniform. What do I do? Is like part
of the training, like letting them fail or like how
(22:47):
do you address it when it just doesn't happen?
Speaker 7 (22:50):
Oh, that's such a good question.
Speaker 6 (22:52):
So first, I would reframe it that we're not failing,
we're learning. So second, like and absolutely it's going to
be a process, and for us as women, it's so
so understandable that like we're exhausted, we're burnt out, we're done.
The thought of having our kids proactively noticed feels like
a fantasy and a dream, and we want it to
happen like this because we are just at the end
(23:14):
of our rope. We have to understand that it is
a like learning process, just like I say, you taught
your kids to tie your shoes, want tire your shoes,
tie their shoes, or read, or learn social skills to
make friends, to step by step process and in the
course I talk to you and teach you how to
take individual steps where we teach them in small ways,
(23:39):
every single step that needs to happen. While also, and
this is a huge part managing our own expectations because
like I said, we really really want it to happen immediately,
but that's not our kids' job to fulfill for us,
like that's our stuff. And so we manage our expectations
with the understanding that this will happen and it's a
process and going to learn together, then it will happen.
(24:04):
So for example, with like your son and the laundry,
instead of saying, okay, you're gonna notice your laundry and
go right like we need to be able to kind
of like link ons with him and say let me
show you. So let's go and see your laundry baskets.
When your laundry basket gets like this, bole, that's about
(24:26):
the time when you're gonna want to put it in
the washing machine. This is how you put it in
the washing machine. This is how you put the soap in.
This is how you manage the buttons or whatever. The
what am I trying to think of, Like the.
Speaker 5 (24:41):
Setting, This is how you do the settings.
Speaker 6 (24:44):
It will normally wash for this much time. So if
you have a game that you need to have a
clean soccer jersey for or whatever, you can't put the
start the wash thirty minutes before because it won't be
ready in time. Again, these are things that like we
are still no more kids know. They don't know because
we've been the one doing it. So you say I
(25:05):
would start it the day before or in the morning.
Let's figure out a time together right now so we
can set them up for success. When is going to
be the best time to do that, And then we
can give them small reminders, small encouragement, especially in the beginning,
with the understanding that there's still just learning. So you
(25:25):
could be like, hey, have you noticed your laundry for today,
yet instead of saying, did you do your laundry? Is
your soccer jersey queen? Have you gone and noticed where
your laundry tamper is at? Or like, oh, just as
a reminder tomorrow you have your games, have you noticed
whether or not you have a clean shirt?
Speaker 5 (25:45):
And then what do you need to do after that?
Speaker 6 (25:48):
So you're like kind of giving them hints so they
are able to fill in the blank and take some
of that ownership and responsibility slowly over time.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
With the hopes that ultimately they'll see the game on
the calendar be able to absolutely.
Speaker 6 (26:02):
But it's just like lifting weights. And I think especially
with older kids, we think will like this is like
a fifteen year old kid like he should be This
is why I hear from parents of teens especially all
the time here, she should be able to do this,
and when we approach her from gop face instead of
they are learning, they don't know and they're trying their best,
(26:24):
like just assuming the best, whether or not they should
be able to do it, quote unquote, it's kind of irrelevant.
We're teaching them and we're just going to start from
square one. So just like I said, lifting weights, Like,
just because I'm a thirty year old not thirty, I'm
almost forty.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
We can rock down.
Speaker 5 (26:43):
Yeah, I'm almost forty.
Speaker 6 (26:45):
Because I'm a forty year old woman, Should I be
able to lift fifty pound weights and do like, you know,
three sets of twenty right off the bat.
Speaker 5 (26:54):
I don't know, but probably not if.
Speaker 7 (26:56):
I'm not used to doing it.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
So I'm going to start with the fight weight and
I'm going to lift those five pound weights for a while,
and then I'm going to gradually, as my muscles grow,
my capabilities grow, I'm going to like increase the weight.
So start small, keep your expectations in check, because again,
that's about us, it's not about them, and slowly, over
time teach them.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
I love it. We're going to take another quick break
and then we're going to talk about two very different
age groups, toddlers and adults. All right, we are back,
(27:40):
and I was very impressed looking at your stuff that
this isn't just about teens. This is about little kids,
and how when you start doing these lessons early you
can achieve some really impressive noticing and actual helping in
really young ones and lass of where our listeners are
in those stages so can you talk a little bit
about how these tactics apply to toddlers and preschoolers.
Speaker 6 (28:04):
Totally, Littles are so fun because they're so eager to please,
and it's the stage in life where all of this
can feel like a gain to them and parents, especially
like if John was like eighteen months old, Like I
had somebody DM me yesterday and she was like my
eighteen month old and not unloads MPs all the garbages
(28:28):
in our house.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
Now an eighteen.
Speaker 6 (28:30):
Month old and I don't have to tell them to
do it. The other day, I just saw them dragging
a garbage out to the garbage can, just all.
Speaker 5 (28:36):
On their own.
Speaker 6 (28:37):
So one of the ways that we teach younger kids,
especially the concept of noticing, because they might not know
what the word noticing means, is you can say, hey,
I want to teach you the fun thing, and we're
going to go clean up the playrooms, but we're going
to do it in a little bit of a different way.
We're going to notice what needs to be cleaned up,
(28:58):
and I'm going to see if you can notice what
to be cleaned up without me telling you. Now, noticing
is just a special way of saying, see So we're
going to take our noticing goggles and I just like
cut my hands and put them over my eyes like
glasses or goggles, and we're gonna look with our special
noticing goggles on together, and we're going to see what
(29:18):
needs to be put away. And if you notice something,
you can yell notice and run and grab and put
it away, or you can beep like a robot, like
a metal detector like baby ba baby, and then go
and put it away. So we're going to start by
looking at the floor. Is there anything you're noticing with
your noticing goggles put away on this floor? Oh, I'm
noticing that those blocks need to be put in the
(29:41):
block box. Let's go notice those blocks and put away.
So we're just using the word again and again and
again instead of like, let's go put the blocks away,
like you notice, you notice those blocks needed to be
put away, Now let's go do it. And then oh okay,
now sometimes we need to look a little bit higher.
Speaker 7 (29:57):
Than the floor.
Speaker 6 (29:57):
Let's look at the show, or let's look on the couch.
Is there anything on the couch that isn't where it
should be. Let's keep looking with our noticing goggles. So
that's a really really simple way to just teach the
concept of noticing to little and then we can start
talking about let's go in another realm of the house
and see what things are to notice, or as you're
(30:18):
doing things in the kitchen, just narrating what you're doing
and what you're noticing, so you can start to make
what is then previously invisible visible to them. And it's
going to sound like you're a little bit crazy at first,
and that's okay, but you're just helping them see by
verbalizing your thought process. So if you're doing like after dinner,
(30:39):
cleenus like, hey, let's do some noticing together to reset
this kitchen. Okay, I'm noticing that there's plates that are out,
so I'm going to take the place and put them
in the sync. I'm noticing that the milk jug is out.
I'm going to put the milk jug back in the fridge.
I'm noticing that there's crumbs all over the counters. Let
me show you this fun way where you could kind
of use your hand along the counter to free them,
(31:01):
and then when we have the crowmbs, we're going to
go put them in the garbage can. So really taking
it step by step, breaking it down for them and
just saying come do this with me and showing them
the process instead of giving them as.
Speaker 5 (31:16):
Silence and saying you do this, you do this, you
do this.
Speaker 6 (31:19):
You're really giving them the opportunity to say, this is
how you see what needs to happen for yourself, because
this is how I'm seeing for yourself. It's not magic,
it's not rocket science, but we do need to kind
of pull back the curtain in our brain so kids
can start to understand all of the thought process that
happens behind the noticing, love.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
It, and love that you are making that work even
with toddlers, And I like the gamification idea because they're
probably more likely to respond to that if there's an
element of fun, because we all know the eighteen month
olds do what eighteen month olds want, and there's not
a lot of way to convince them, but if you
make it enticing enough and make it fun enough, and
that would be a great way to get them to
(32:02):
make it a have it. So that's awesome. We're going
to go to the other end of the spectrum because
a lot of your methods do kind of apply to kids.
But then there is the partner question, and I'm not, like,
you know, specifically speaking about my partner, even though he
did ask me to make a slow cooker meal at
two pm that required no, I'm just kidding. He really
meant well, and we're going to make it this weekend.
(32:23):
So it was a great idea. But how do you
help partners who might have some asymmetry, let's say, in
the noticing asymmetry?
Speaker 6 (32:32):
I like that, Okay, So first we're going to understand
the teaching our kids how to notice, and the relationship
we have with the process there with them with children
is entirely separate and different from teaching an adult partner
to notice. I think also, too, it's important to validate
(32:54):
the rage and just the inherent and fairness that comes
with the fact that we are the ones who are
doing all the noticing. And then also simultaneously we have
to supposedly teach adult men how to do this as well. Like,
there's an element of resentment there, and I think it's okay.
(33:16):
Not I think I know it's okay to feel well, however,
you need to feel about that, Like you don't need
to like swelter your rage about that because it sucks.
So teaching adults is entirely different from teaching kids, and
for me, it looked like having hard conversations with my
(33:37):
partner and having those conversations a lot, and having check
in and having him watch other creator's content on Instagram
that talks specifically to the adult side of this. So
it wasn't all on me to be the educator. So
(33:59):
he could take initiative and practice take the initiative for
himself of watching these creators content. So he put like,
for example, a reminder on his phone every day. I
was like, every day at two pm, I need to
go to this account, in this account and watch their
content for the day.
Speaker 5 (34:15):
So I can. So it's like they don't know what they.
Speaker 6 (34:18):
Don't know, and they have been raised in the exact
same patriarchal society that we have been raised in, and
so there it takes time to start having an input
of different information so they can start having an awareness
and understanding. So that was one way that he took
the initiative to educate himself over.
Speaker 7 (34:37):
A long period of time.
Speaker 6 (34:38):
He also took the initiative to put reminders on his phone.
Speaker 5 (34:42):
To have a weekly checking with me.
Speaker 6 (34:45):
So it wasn't on me to be like, Hey, it's
Wednesday at seven, could we talk and just kind of
see like where the progress has been, where we still
need to do some improvement or work on it. So
he took the initiative to say to approach me and say, hey, Wednesday,
se let's talk about it.
Speaker 5 (35:01):
What am I doing well?
Speaker 6 (35:02):
What can still be improved?
Speaker 5 (35:04):
And then really really.
Speaker 6 (35:06):
Another key piece was focusing on the fact that when
I came to him, one of his biggest defenses was
I feel like you're saying I'm not good enough. And
so that was something that we really had to talk about.
And again I had to say, no, no, no, don't
go there, don't do that. That is not what I
am saying. I am not saying you're not good enough.
(35:27):
I am saying there are skills that you do not
currently have that in some ways no fault of your own,
because you have been raised in the exact same way
I have been raised, but on this opposite end of
the spectrum. So like, we are in this together. The
enemy is not you. This is not me versus you.
The enemy is the patriarchal messages and societal gender based
(35:48):
expectations that we have been given. And together we are
going to fight this and like the deeply rooted stuff
and we're going to unroot it together, and this is
how we're going to do it, me and you together,
So really approaching it from that kind of like team based,
arm in arm again saying of like we got this,
(36:10):
so it doesn't have to always go to I'm not
enough for you, I'm not good enough I like, no
matter how hard I tried it like no, no, no, nope,
we're not doing that.
Speaker 5 (36:19):
We're not doing that. Member.
Speaker 6 (36:20):
This is me and you against this other thing. And
at the end of the day, like, I hate that
this even has to be said. But if your partner,
like we are talking about your quality of life here,
and not having an equitable partnership deeply, deeply, deeply negatively
impacts your quality of life. And if your partner does
(36:41):
not care about your quality of life enough to educate
himself enough to step up enough to even try, like
we're not again, we're not going for perfection. We're just
going for good, safe efforts. If he doesn't even care
enough about that to try them, Like, there's deeper rooted
problems that need to be addressed that go past just
the division of domestic labor.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Awesome. I think so many valuable takeaways there and yeah,
just powerful stuff. I think that you need to have
another course. Hopefully that one's coming.
Speaker 6 (37:13):
Maybe we are, We're working on it.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
That is awesome. Do you in the meantime, and I
know we have to wrap things up, but do you
have any creators or authors like the one that came
to mind first was maybe like Eve Rodsky, the author
of fair Play, who we've had as a guest on
our show as well. Are there others that like you've
directed people too, or that your husband was pulling up
on Instagram?
Speaker 5 (37:36):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (37:37):
Okay, so three right off the bat page Colonnel. Her
account is she is a page turner. She talks a
lot about this, especially in regards to working mom.
Speaker 5 (37:50):
I would also say, Zach.
Speaker 6 (37:52):
I'm trying to get his exact handle here, Zach Watson.
His account is real Zach Think Share, and he talks
about it from a man's perspective. He calls himself a
recovering man child and his videos are awesome and is
really really informative coming from like again, the man's perspective
(38:12):
side of things. And then another one is Laura Danger
and her handle is I think it's just Laura Danger.
Speaker 7 (38:21):
Hold on, let me see.
Speaker 6 (38:22):
Oh it's not word. Her handle is that darn chat.
And she talked a lot about mental load, invisible labor,
and how it shows up in a lot of different ways,
like in our society, in our world, and challenging different
assumptions that we have and that we've all grown up with,
and how these very very small scenes end up actually
(38:44):
being big scenes. So again, it's all different sides of it.
Their content is really short, really bite sized, really manageable,
and that's why I found it helpful for him to
just consume just a few minutes every day from a
few different voices, so it wasn't all on me to
do the massive mental and emotional labor of explaining this all.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
Now awesome, I love that. Well, do you have a
love of the week for us? Sam? I guess I
can always start, just because I'd like to give our
guests a minute to kind of like think of what
you're going to come up with. So I'm going to
be like super basic and just say that, like this
time of year, it's not fall at all, and therefore
(39:31):
I want to bake all the fall things. So I
made sweet potato muffins, and it was like, made me
so happy because I can. I live in Florida, so
I'm like, I can pretend it's not disgusting out and
then we have some sort of seasonality and it made
me so happy. So sweet potato muffins for the wind.
Speaker 5 (39:46):
I love that.
Speaker 6 (39:47):
I would think mine would be. We have a lot
of beautiful bike trails around where we live, and normally
I like to do bike rides in the evening, but
now that it's cooling down just a little bit, I
can go and do a quick bike right during the
day in the sunshine, and it is just like life giving.
Speaker 5 (40:03):
I love riding my bike.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
I love it. I won't take it as you've rubbing
it in And I'm just kidding. We have no fall.
I'm totally kidding. Tell our listeners where they can find you,
including maybe some upcoming projects you've hinted that, but also
where they can get their hands on this audio course
that everybody is raving about.
Speaker 5 (40:22):
Yes, absolutely so.
Speaker 6 (40:23):
I'm on Instagram at sam kelly Underscore World. On there
you can find the links in my bio. You can
get a free guide which will give you the basic
structure of how to do this talks about, like we said,
the Big Three, how to get your kids to notice,
So I would hop on that Big Guy three Big
Guy Free guide in the link in my bio. There
is also a weight list. I open the course once
(40:45):
a quarter. We just barely close it for enrollment, so
it will be opening again in November. If you want
to hop on the weight list and link in my bio,
that's where you're going to get a special exclusive discount
when it opens. You will also get first access and
first to know.
Speaker 7 (40:59):
When it opens. And no, my and I am also.
Speaker 6 (41:03):
Working on a book, so we're finishing up the book
proposal right now and then we're going to be submitting
it to publishers. That is a huge long project though,
so we're looking at like twenty twenty seven, but that's
something that's in the works as well.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Awesome, Well congrats Sam. I think you struck a chord
here and I think our listeners are going to love this,
so we so appreciate you coming on.
Speaker 7 (41:24):
Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Well we are back, Sarah. I was interviewing Sam Kelly
about how to create little cycle breakers, the kids who
notice what needs to be done around the house and
help out with it. So lots of great tips there.
This week's listener question comes from someone who wants to
talk about doing fun things with teens. So, how do
(41:47):
you deal with teens not wanting to do a bunch
of stuff with their families? Are generally spending less time
with us because they're so busy with school and activities.
Obviously it's great for kids to be involved with things.
This listener reports that she does plan trips and a
couple of family outings on occasion, but overall, the loss
of time with them is hard, along with the idea
that they won't be living at home much longer. So
(42:08):
what our way is to spend time with big kids
that they will actually go for?
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Sarah?
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Yeah, so, well, first, I just think it's important to
acknowledge that this is very much normal. It is not
an indicator that your family dynamics are bad or that
you're doing the wrong thing. Like at a certain point,
many teens are going to be attracted more to things
in like the friend and peer sphere and less excited
about doing things with family. Of course, there's exceptions, but
(42:36):
that's like in the books I've read so far, I'm
like kind of conditioned to expect that, and I think
not taking things personally is probably part of what needs
to happen, and then savoring the family time when it
does happen. I think family trips are awesome for this because,
I mean, if everyone's flown to Montana together, you've got
a captive audience for family activities. But also making sure
(42:57):
that those trips are things that your kids are excited about.
And then I also feel like you can pay attention
to times you have with kids that aren't necessarily an activity,
but it can still add up to a lot of time.
Time in the car. For example, you can have some
great conversations, you can listen to their music, you can
talk about what's going on, or even like if they
have a sports event and you end up having to
(43:18):
accompany them to a tournament that's far away, Like that's
a lot of quality time. It might not be the
quote together in as family outing that you plan when
everybody was little, but it absolutely still counts and you know,
should be savored and appreciated for what it is.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yeah, I mean, I think doing one on one time
for things that kid wants to do are great. So trips, excursions, concerts,
just runs to Starbucks or whatever their treat is. Like,
you know, if they love going to Starbucks, then probably
they're willing to go with mom to Starbucks, especially if
you're paying, So that is something you can do. Also,
(43:54):
just trying to linger when you can, Like if a
kid is talking to you at dinner, much as we
want everyone to do the dishes, you don't have to
get up and do it right. Then you can sit
there and just sit for a while and let the
conversation keep going and get to clearing the table a
little bit later, because that can all possibly wait. So
just kind of noticing when there is a moment of
(44:16):
connection and then letting it keep going for a reasonable
amount of time can be good. But yeah, I think
there's nothing wrong with kids wanting independence. I think there's
actually been some interesting shifts of kids having less independence
these days, and I don't know if that's all a
great thing. I mean, it's nice that kids are probably
(44:38):
closer to their parents now than they were in past generations,
but at some point we all do need to be
our own, independent adult people. So I was quite happy
that my four older kids this summer all got at
least a week away from home to kind of experience
their life apart from us and sort of get to
(44:58):
know themselves in a situation that is not at home.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
I think that's good for them.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
But of course I love spending time with them when
I can as well, So we've been doing a lot
of things when we can or Olivia Roduno concerts, Starbucks trips. Yeah,
one thing I would say, I heard this step. I
haven't really tried this yet, but if your kid has
a tendency to just put their headphones on when they're
in the car, like put their AirPods in their ear
and listen to their music, suggest that they be the
(45:24):
DJ for the car and that you all listen to
whatever it is that they would be listening into their headphones. Now,
if it turns out that what they're listening to is
like horrible, misogynistic, terrible violent stuff, then obviously you have
to k have a conversation about that. And you're like,
I would prefer you'd be not listening to that, and
we're definitely not listening to this as a group. But
(45:45):
that's probably a conversation that should be had in general
as well. But as long as their music is not
so terrible, probably they could be the DJ for the
car and that would at least get the AirPods out
and bring the possibility of spending the moment together in
the car.
Speaker 3 (46:02):
Our morning djit we do that exact same thing. So
I actually usually hand the kids the phone and they'll
like pick the next song and they like to alternate
and the mixes we have. Cameron's into the song the
Neil Diamond classic Sweet Caroline, which he sings.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Well, that's fun to sing a lot like Exact.
Speaker 3 (46:18):
Boy Party except an Opti hire. Then it will be
sometime it's like the funniest thing I've ever heard, and
then Genevieve's like Barbie soundtrack. Then Annabel is playing her
supreen and carpet. I mean it is like just the
funniest like mix. There's a lot of laughter and it's
a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
So yes, yeah, well that sounds great.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
That sounds great.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
Good way to get older kids involved and I'll be
experiencing it together.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Well, this has been best of both worlds.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
We'll be back next week with more and making work
and life fit together.
Speaker 3 (46:47):
Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the
shoebox dot com or at the underscore shoebox on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
And you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please
join us next time for more on making work and
life work together
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