September 3, 2024 • 41 mins
In the intro, Sarah and Laura discuss memories of college applications. There may or may not have been typewriters involved! Then, Laura welcomes Alice Chen, BrightStory founder and top college admissions counselor to chat about all things college admissions, from building a narrative that makes sense to viewing the process as an opportunity for teens to learn valuable life skills. In the Q&A, Laura and Sarah answer a listener question about paying for college.
Find more from Alice and BrightStory here: http://www.brightstory.info/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi. I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
and speaker.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician,
writer and course creator. We are two working parents who
love our careers and our families.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
how real women manage work, family, and time for fun,
from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.
We want you to get the most out of life.
Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This
episode is airing in early September of twenty twenty four.
(00:47):
Probably most of our listeners sending kids back to school
either last month or this week, so we're doing some
school related content here. I am going to be interviewing
Alice Chen, who is the owner of Bright Story Admissions Insulting,
So it's going to be talking a little bit about
the college admissions process, things that people with children in
middle school or high school might want to think about,
(01:08):
but not just the college admissions process, because as we've
talked about on this podcast many times, it seems to
swallow up senior year for many kids. And that's a
shame because it's also a time of life when kids
are learning to be adults, and there's a lot that
goes into that. And so Alice talks about all the
life skills that you can think about the college admissions
(01:30):
process as developing, and to some degree is the kids
get those life skills that can be even more important
in terms of how they talk about themselves, how they
think about their strengths, how they learn to present themselves,
how they learn to manage a big project with multiple parts,
to manage their time, all of those very very important things. So, Sarah,
(01:54):
do you remember applying to college. It's been a long
time for both of us now I do.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
I mean the applications mostly on paper, but I would
type my essays like using like word or word perfect
or whatever we were.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Using back then.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
My dad helped me edit them, but definitely didn't write
any of them. And one random vision that came into
my head when we're talking about college admissions is, you
know you'd get the paper, not the acceptances or rejections,
but like the big books in the mail that would
like show like the glossy brochures. Okay, so I cut
the ones I had applied to out and I put
them all up on my cabinet wall. I taped them
(02:30):
all up, and there were like seven of them, and
then like, I got rejected from two of them, so
I took those down, but I was just so proud
of having the five open that I had gotten to
look at Like it was like, oh, I get to
choose from all these flavors of ice cream or something
like that, and so yeah, that's my it's my college
application process in a nutshell. I did not apply early
decision anywhere.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, I think that was starting to be a thing,
but it wasn't quite as big a thing when we
were applying. Certainly one difference. I mean, you applied to
seven schools and that was probably seen as a normal
number or even on the high side, and kids these
days definitely apply to a dozen or sometimes even more.
That it's been facilitated by it being online and a
(03:11):
lot of this being a college app that a lot
of the common app a lot of the colleges except
the common app sometimes with a little bit of supplementation.
But it certainly has become a little bit more doable
to apply to a lot of places. I think I
actually wrote one or two of my essays or at
least the application stuff on a typewriter, Like I put
the form into a typewriter and then wrote with the typewriter.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I think I did the same thing.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, I had a typewriter. I liked playing with it.
And of course we got our decisions by mail torture.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Torture, I mean, and you didn't know when it was coming,
like you know, at least I think with a lot
of them. Right, it's like you know exactly when it's
going to come, and you can refresh your email and
you can be like, Okay, I'm ready for this moment,
I'm in the right place.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Whatever.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
No, it was like roulette every day at the mailbox.
So like I don't want to go through that again,
and I'm glad my kids.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Won't have to.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Yeah, no, I remember I had been at a conference.
I went to a residential high school, so I had
a little mailbox for me, like a dorm mailbox. And
it couldn't take big stuff in it, so if you
ever had a package or a big envelope, they'd put
a little slip of paper. And so I had been
at a conference with a group and we'd you know,
contain the van back and I walk in It's early April,
(04:26):
and I don't see anything in my mailbox. I'm like,
what what? And then I open it and there's little
slips in there, so I was like, ah, okay, that
sounds good. So then you know, take it up to
the counter to get envelopes and hand the slips, and
of course the person behind the counter is like, so
(04:47):
super fun. It was fun. It was a good time.
But yeah, I mean, it's so much has changed with it.
It's fascinating to go through this as the parental version
of it. But we definitely for our listeners who are
in this stage of life to turn down the pressure
(05:09):
a little bit. I think some of this is self imposed.
There are a lot of wonderful schools out there who
accept a reasonably high proportion of the young people who apply,
And so your kid is going to wind up somewhere
amazing and wherever they go, that is not the sole
(05:33):
thing that determines their lives, Whereas the relationship you have
with your kid is a huge part of your experience
and their experience of their last few years before they
are launched out into the world. So hoping that people
could keep that in mind, well, we're about to. I
guess we'll do the interview portion now with Alice Chen
(05:55):
of Bright Story Admissions Consulting. So Sarah and I are
delighted to welcome Alice Chen to the program. Alice, can
you introduce yourself to our listeners?
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Well, first, I just want to say I'm a huge
fan of the podcast. I've been listening for years and
I've read so many of your books, So thank you
for having me. Yes, so again, my name is Alice Chen.
I'm based in the San Francisco Bay area. I'm a
Stanford grad. I'm a professional journalist, and I run a
boutique college consulting firm called Bright Story. We specialize in
(06:29):
helping high performing teams get into top schools. But something
that's really unique about my practice is in recent years,
I've shifted away from just purely getting kids into college,
but focusing more on like the long game, so preparing
students for life. And I use the college application process
and prep process as a way to teach life skills.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Because there are a lot of life skills involved in
a big project like this, right.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
I think that is one mistake families make when they
come to me is they often think it's just academics
will get you in.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
But the landscape has.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
Changed so much, especially in recent years, that I think
you really need something to stand out. And a lot
of times I find that when my students are doing
this standout thing, they're gaining a lot of life skills
in the process, so it's fun.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Yeah. Well, let's talk a little bit about how college
admissions has changed over the past few decades. I know
a lot of our listeners, whether they have kids in
that age range of not of you know, high school
aged kids, they probably went through the process themselves, but
it may have been at least ten years ago, probably
more like fifteen, twenty or a little more. What has
(07:45):
changed over the past two decades or so in the
college admissions landscape.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Yeah, well, I think it's just gotten a lot more competitive.
Like when I applied to college a long time ago,
it was maybe twelve percent admit rate to a place
like Stanford, and now it's less than four percent. And
I would say it's a combination of things. There are
more people in America, there are more people globally, so
there's just more competition. And after COVID happened and a
(08:13):
lot of schools went test optional, Like the application rates
shot up because I think so many more people are
applying just to see if they have a shot to
get in.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
And the common app has changed this too, I mean
over the past few decades. If you want to think
back even further in sort of the historical college admissions landscape, Yes.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
For sure, I think it's just easier to apply to
these schools A lot of times, a lot of the
essays replicate, so you're not writing that many more essays
for extra schools.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
And so how many colleges do people generally apply to
these days?
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
I often recommend applying to maybe twelve schools and getting
arranged within those schools. And but I've seen some of
my top students who have gotten like great results, they
might be applying to like fifteen or twenty. Like when
they're done with me, I see that they apply to
a bunch more, and I'm like, oh, okay.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
And I think.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Initially i'd be like, you should really focus on the
number of schools you apply and produce excellent work. But
I have seen that when they apply to more, they
are getting more admissions.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Interesting, so families come to you, when are they normally
coming to in the whole process in terms of how
old the kids are when in the high school journey.
Maybe you can talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
Yeah, a lot of families tend to come to me
junior year. That's like a very prime time as they're
like gearing up. But I have had some people approach
me as young as sixth grade and want to get
like an intro call in. And typically for those families,
I don't actually take them because I really value mental
(09:55):
health and I want kids to have a childhood and
just experience their middle school years without a ton of pressure.
So typically I do accept students going into freshman year.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
All right, but junior year isn't too late. If somebody's like, well,
I hadn't even thought about college until junior year, Now
you're not doomed at that point.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
No, I mean I have people. I'm sure I'll get
inquiries this fall. Yeah, so at that point, it's more
like packaging and shaping. But if you come earlier, then
you can really think about like life goals and more
like big picture strategy. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
So when I mean, we're talking about teenagers here, and
I'm not sure how many of them have a big
picture strategy when you are true sixteen seventeen years old,
I mean, what does that initial conversation even look like?
Speaker 4 (10:39):
Then it depends on the student. You'd be surprised. I
would say that for some reason, I do attract a
lot of like high performing students, and so a lot
of times they come in with a clear direction of
what they want. Sometimes with younger students, they're like all
over the place, and I'm totally.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Cool with that too.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
I might send them away with like a personality assessment
or build brainstorm dream jobs, and I'll say, hey, this
is good practice for finding a job in the future
or a field. Is like go google like interesting people
in your field and just send them a cold email,
ask them if you can talk to them for ten
or fifteen minutes and ask some questions about their field.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
So it really depends on the student.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
But I would say that typically the student that comes
to me is more like motivated and that type of thing.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
But do kids need to know what they're going to
be doing as they're going into the college admissions process?
I guess what I'm trying to ask here is I
feel like so much of this has gotten like you
have to know what your path is in life, and
you can't just be a good student who's done well
at two different activities that you like. That that's not
(11:48):
well packaged. I guess if that's what makes sense.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think it
really depends on the types of school.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
You're looking at.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
So if you're looking at like the tippy top, I
do think that students need like a very cohesive narrative.
With that being said, a lot of times to take
the pressure off, I'm like, Okay, you can probably change
majors at any time in college, so let's just go
with what your current interests are. You don't have to
have like the next fifty years planned out, but what
are you interested in today? And so with those type
(12:20):
of students, that's typically.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
What I do.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
And then again, like, if you're not going for as
competitive of a school, I think you could be a
little bit broader. But for the top schools, you need
like a super strong narrative.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Let's talk about that. What does a narrative mean when
we're talking about sixteen seventeen year old children.
Speaker 4 (12:39):
I know, I know it's and sometimes I feel bad
about saying stuff like this because it's gotten so much
more competitive than when I went to school. But I
think a narrative is like a general area of interest.
A lot of times they have had like an extracurricular
passion project, and some of them come in with like
crazy stuff that they've done, and I'm like, you know,
(13:02):
you don't even need college at this point, like you've
created a viable product, a viable app or something like
And I hope to help take the pressure off of them.
But basically it's telling their story, like why they did
what they did. Maybe there's a personal tie in how
they want to contribute to the world, how they want
to impact the world, And sometimes what they do in
(13:23):
college remains the same, and sometimes they go in a
completely different direction. But I think it's just like, at
that point in time, can you create like a cohesive narrative.
And it's a good skill to have, you know, like
any time you're applying for a job, you're going to
need it and maybe you change careers. But I think
it comes through like self reflection and knowing what you
like at that point.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
In time, because the idea of the narrative is, let's
say a child has done a lot with soccer, and
then you would construct other things to support that interest,
showing the interest in that, like that you went deep
into it, or like doing a vol into your project
associated with so not just playing soccer. It's that you
(14:05):
helped at a soccer camp in the summer, right, Or
maybe you could give a few examples for people.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Ah, that's a great question.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
This is tough because I don't want to talk about
any current students that I'm working with. But for example,
I have a student in recent years who was interested
in research and science, and so she actually during the pandemic,
her parents were both working big busy jobs and she
was home alone and she actually created a lab in
(14:35):
her garage.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
She invented a new biofuel.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
So she took at home material she would buy them
on eBay and things like that, and she read through
like maybe dozens or hundreds of journal articles to come
up with a protocol of how to create a biofuel.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
And she went out and she got a bunch.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
Of different specimens, different types of plants, and like experimented
to see which one would be the most efficient. She
found like an invasive species, and it's like ten times
more efficient than corn as a starter crop. It doesn't
need water and all this stuff. So her narrative would
be actually the most impressive part of this is that
(15:14):
she did it all alone, and then she wants science
firm and things like that. But typically students who do
these type of big research projects, they will have a
mentor they will have a lot of funding from their
schools and things like that. But I think the most
important part of her narrative was that she did it
on her own. And then actually in working with her,
I was like, you don't need these top schools. You
(15:35):
can start a company, right, And that puts you in
a very different position when you think colleges are going
to want me rather than I need the college. And
so I think it helped her develop a lot of
confidence in knowing what her strengths were. So not every
student is like that, but it's like that type of
cohesive story, or like a parent had cancer and I
(15:56):
want to be a cancer researcher. Things like that. Like
the environment, it just growing up with wildfires. Now I've
developed these apps to like help predict wildfires. So it's
stuff like that a personal tie in that hits like
a big world problem ideally, and then what you've taken
to do that. I know it sounds very intense, and
there is this population of students who are doing that.
(16:18):
My personal my own children are not doing that, but
I know what people do and what it takes to
get in.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Yeah, I was gonna say, I'm not doing any biofuels
in my basement, nor are any of my kids, So.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
I know I don't think we ever will be.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
But you know, that's why I'm focused on life skills though,
right because I know for my own kids, do you
want that stress and that pressure, like you don't need
a top school?
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Like what can I do to teach them today to prepare?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
All right, Well, we're going to take a quick ad
break and then we'll be back talking more about college
and life skills in general. Well, I am back with
Alice Chen, who helps teenagers with college admissions but also
(17:06):
building life skills through the process of applying to college,
figuring out who they are, what might interest them, things
like that. We've been talking about building a narrative, which
is just you know, I think about this when people
sometimes ask me, well, why did you write this book?
And I can't just be like, because I'm a writer
and I needed to write a book. I mean, it's
(17:28):
like you have to come up with some compelling origin story.
And so I imagine that that is a life skill that
you are teaching children as well.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
I mean I always want them to have a personal
tie in if possible, and once they actually create this
narrative with me, if you will, like it's something that
they can keep using and adapting, like when they apply
to grass school jobs, fellowships, things like that. And so
we go through the process and I actually approach it
like I would a journalist. So I asked them a
ton of questions, like if I were reporting the story.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
What would I want to know?
Speaker 4 (18:02):
And so I asked them a ton of questions and
then I'm like, oh, put that in, Oh put that in, Like, oh,
you're funny. You should write with a funny voice, like
bring your personality out and things like that.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Awesome. So with that, I mean, when you see families
approaching the college process or they're in it somewhere, what
are the biggest mistakes that they wind up making.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
Yeah, I mean I think again, a lot of families
focus too much on academics. And if you're going for
I would say top one hundred schools, Yes, grades and
test scores are a big thing, but.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
I think they don't think about life skills.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
They don't think about extracurriculars and passion projects enough, and
they focus too much just on academics.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Okay, but with that, I mean, how should kids be
focusing their time then? I mean, I guess the good
grades is kind of like maybe the table stakes, right,
But do you do like one or two things? Should
you do a couple different things? I mean, what would
you recommend?
Speaker 4 (19:01):
Yeah, I would recommend, you know, definitely you need the academics,
and then on top of that, maybe two or three
things max and go deep. I mean maybe that's like
per year though, right, because you have four years, and
so I would also say definitely, I encourage my students
to have like one passion project in their high school career,
(19:23):
to just play around with, explore, create something on their own,
that type of thing.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah, and one of them you mentioned just now, the
like idea of applying to top one hundred schools, and
then you know, there's obviously more than one hundred schools
in the university. I'm guessing that a lot of people
haven't even heard of some number of the top one
hundred schools. I mean, the schools we've heard of are
either the most competitive ones out there or are ones
(19:50):
that have a really big football team. Right, that's kind
of the extent of people's college knowledge. How should families
go about finding there are schools that might have a
more reasonable admissions rate but still be very good schools
that do great things with their kids, but that you
haven't heard of because they're not an IVY league and
they don't win the College Bowl championship.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
Yeah, there are definitely various resources, Like oftentimes I'm like
chat GPT as your friend, enter it in with all
of your parameters and your statistics and see what comes out.
There are various search engines where you can again enter
in geography, size and things like that. And then one
book that I really enjoyed was this book called Colleges
(20:33):
That Change Lives And there's actually a website associated with that,
but basically it was written by a journalist and he
really evaluated colleges that give students a good learning experience,
like small class sizes, access to professors, high student satisfaction,
and he narrowed it down to primarily small liberal arts schools.
(20:54):
And it's interesting because everybody wants to go for that
big state school or that prestigious Ivy League school, which
which is like seventy five hundred people for undergrad and
you're going to be top by people just a few
years older than you. As ta's you're not going to
get access to small group classes with a professor. And
so that's why I would highly encourage people to look
(21:14):
at the smaller liberal arts schools.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Yeah, you know, it's funny that you just said, like
put in your parameters in chat GPT Again, if I'm
seventeen years old, how do I even know what my
parameters are? Like, how would you go about thinking about this?
I mean, you know, we're like obviously my listeners know
we have a seventeen year old and we're going through this.
But it's like, okay, people like, well, what size city
(21:40):
do you want to be at? It's like, I don't know.
I mean maybe not two hundred people, but I don't
have many parameters beyond that.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
I don't know, right, I think parameters would be like
where in the country do you want to be?
Speaker 3 (21:54):
What industry are you interested in?
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Later, like, if my students are interested in film, I'll
say okay, or LA and New York. If you want
to do tech, maybe do Bay Area that type of thing,
because I do think that where you go to school,
oftentimes people end up there, alumni networks are stronger, etc.
So I would say geography is something knowing whether you
want to be in a big city or not or
(22:16):
in a more rural area.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
The size of the school.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
So if it's like super large, I would say that
there are a lot of resources and a lot of
diversity in terms of classes and professors, but you might
not get as much contact with people, and you'll have
to be more of like a self starter, Whereas if
you go to a super small liberal arts school, you'll
have a lot of contact with your classmates, the social
(22:39):
fabric might be stronger. So if you're not a super
self starter, I would probably encourage kids to go to
a smaller place where they would be seen and have
more support.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
So it's stuff like.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
That, Yeah, And then again like areas of interest in
terms of majors and things like that, so ensuring that
the major exists that is strong, that their resources dedicated
to it, and things like that.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yeah. I was talking with one family recently that you know,
mentioned one parameter for them was if the child was
going to want mom and dad to come to things,
then they needed to choose a school that was kind
of within like let's say a four hour driving distance,
because otherwise it was going to be somewhat harder to
just get there for the weekend to go to the kids'
(23:28):
theater performance or go to a intermural soccer game that
they were having that was important to them. So that
was another criteria that might wind up being important to
people too.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Yeah, you're totally right about that.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
And one thing, since this is best of both worlds
and we think about family and life beyond college, I
think just even thinking of where your family of origin
is and whether you want to be closer to them
in the long run, because once you have kids, you know,
it's great to have family nearby.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
So actually I did grad school and Chicago.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
And the thing that surprised me was like almost everyone
that I knew like grew up in Illinois.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
They never left for college.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
They were there and they were friends with people for decades,
Whereas in the Bay Area, I feel like people are
very transient. They move here for jobs and things like that.
But I definitely agree that there is value to staying
close to home if you will, and having that family support.
I think America is very transient and it's nice to
have that support.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Absolutely. Talking a little bit more about the actual parts
of college admission, the SAT changed this year. I mean
during COVID we had the whole thing with some places
being test optional. I think some places have gone back
and forth on that now, but then we also had
the rollout of the digital SAT this year. I wonder
what you're telling your kids that you're working with about
(24:49):
tests these days, and how they should prepare for them,
how important they might be, anything like that.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
Yeah, for the types of kids I get, and for
the types of schools they want, I always recommend that
they take the test. Like for a lot of schools,
especially at these more challenging schools, they just want to
see that you have that score to make sure that
you can handle the work. And that's why a lot
of the schools like MIT have brought the test back,
because it puts you at a disadvantage to apply without
(25:17):
a test. They're taking more of a risk on you
because they don't want to admit you and have you
not do well. And so if you're aiming for a
competitive school, I would say, take it, and whether you
want to submit is another story, but typically a role
of thumb for that is like, if you're at the
average score above, I do recommend submitting, or maybe with
(25:39):
if you're like within strikingness is like ten twenty thirty
points below. But again, like for the caliber of schools,
you do need to take that test too well, and
you do need to prepare, whether that's on your own,
hiring somebody taking test prep but take it seriously.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah, so just making sure that whatever score you're reporting
is with in the range for what that schools. Although
I guess as places aren't reported, as kids aren't reporting it,
the average is going to change because it's like, if
you're under a fifteen hundred, why would anyone report it
then or something. I don't know, it's exactly.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
One of the downfall of test optional is it's actually
made it harder because the scores are going up, and
so it's sad I feel for kids these days to
get in just because it's a very different landscape.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Yeah, very much. Well, so let's talk about what life
skills are though that you said, like, because it is
so competitive and who knows if anyone's going to get
into the top twelve schools or whatever they are. It's
somewhat of a lottery for some of it, as it
is for sure, But what skills can you learn through
(26:50):
the process of applying to college and how my parents
think about supporting their children through that learning process as
they are applying to schools.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Yeah, you know, I've been thinking this top one I
think is sort of a skill as well as a mindset.
And I feel like a lot of students who come
to me, I've noticed that they don't see how amazing
they are, Like, I feel like they lack confidence. It
comes through in their essays where on the outside they
have all the accolades, but on the inside they're quite
nervous or they don't know like their strengths. And so
(27:24):
I would say confidence is a huge thing. And so
with my students. For example, I had a student who
came in with excellent grades. SAT score in she broke
fifteen hundred, and I'm like, well, why aren't you applying.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
To the top schools?
Speaker 4 (27:40):
And she said, oh, my parents have a kid and
that kid got a sixteen hundred, So I'm not going
to apply. And I'm like, what, No, you know, just
because like, don't care what other people are doing. You
always should put yourself out there. And so yeah, I
have other students who have more concerns about social confidence,
and so for those type of students, I'll be like, Okay,
(28:02):
your assignment is to go talk to your teacher twice
a week, ask them how their weekend was, or get
phone numbers from people, invite them to hang out that
type of thing. So I think there's a confidence issue.
I would say also with COVID, there's been so much
isolation and screen time that getting kids away from their
screens and into real life is super important.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Well, we're going to take a one more quick ad
break and then we're going to be back talking more
about life skills that kids can develop. Okay, so I
am back with Alice ten. We are talking about all
(28:46):
things college admission, but more broadly what kids can learn
in the course of doing it. So you're saying confidence
Sometimes kids need to just decide to try, even if
there's someone in the universe who's done better. But so
what there always is that exactly getting to interact with
people in the real universe, like asking your teachers for
(29:07):
recommendations or figuring out how you can navigate situations. What
else are people learning?
Speaker 4 (29:12):
Yeah, I would say how to position themselves. Like a
lot of times I'll read people's resumes and they'll be
like super technical and I don't even understand what's on them.
But then I teach them how to translate it into
plain English and we talk about like scope and impact
and things like that. So part of it is learning
how to communicate what you bring to the table. And
(29:34):
a lot of times like their leaders, Like one of
my students was doing research and she talked about how
she was one of the top programmers and like the
lead person in her lab. And I was like, Okay,
who's in your lab and she said college students and
grad students And I said, wait, you're one of the
top people as a high schooler and she said yes.
And I said, well, would you say that you are
(29:57):
like perhaps an informal mentor and she said, actually, the
think about that, Like my mentor was off site in Canada,
and so I was the person really in the lab
and people would come to meet with questions. So yeah,
I agree that that's something I could say, So we put.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
That in the application.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
So I think a lot of it is getting them
to reflect and realize the impact and the value that
they bring and communicate it to others, because you can
be absolutely amazing. But if you can't share that message,
only you're going to know. So opportunities come to those
who put themselves out there and who can communicate how
special and amazing they are.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Absolutely. And as parents, I mean, we know how special
and awesome and wonderful our kids are. But what can
we do as we are sort of supporting kids through
this process that ultimately they have to do, right, I
mean it's we're not the ones on novice applying for them.
They need to be there doing it and thinking about
(30:56):
all of it and managing the process. So what should
we be doing? Yeah, to be supportive but not too
in it.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
Yeah, I agree, I think overall support and encouragement. Like
with my own child, I'll tell her, oh my gosh,
like I could see you as a great coach one
day because she asks really great questions and I'm like,
you've got great emotional intelligence. So whatever strengths you see,
calling that out and just like encouraging them, I would
say that's probably the primary thing. Maybe giving them a
(31:26):
gentle nudge to get them out of their comfort zones.
But I'm sure that as high schoolers that gets harder.
I would say that there are parents that hire out.
That's why people bring in someone like me. So I'm
sure two people can say the same thing, but if
your parent says it, you're not going to listen.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
But if like a partial, impartial.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
Like third person gives you an assignment to go talk
to people, you're going to do it, right, And so
that's where I think, to like alleviate family tension at times,
it could be beneficial to bring in a third person.
But yeah, I think and also modeling in your own life,
like you and Sarah are such self starters and you
(32:06):
guys have created this amazing community and all that kind
of stuff. Your kids are going to absorb that. So
just focusing on yourself as well.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
And what if the kid is really feeling a lot
of stress about it, because I'm sure it is a
stressful process. I mean, you're figuring out at least some
chunk of your future. But from the perspective of being
an adult, you could say, well, it's not your entire future, right,
so sure, what can we do to maybe even lower
the tension level a little bit?
Speaker 4 (32:33):
Yeah, I totally agree, and that's why I think it's
this focus on life skills and telling your students what
your philosophy and outlook on life is, introducing them to
various people who have done various things, and I just
tell stories to my kids a lot of like, oh,
this person didn't go to college, and look they did
(32:54):
this amazing thing, right, And so I think just emphasizing
your own philosophy awesome.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Well, we always end with a love of the week,
so this is something that we are enjoying right now.
So I was gonna throw out there. We're recording this
in summer. This is running a little bit closer toward
back to school season. But I've really been enjoying riding
my bike. This is especially I mean I always like
to take some sort of active break in the middle
(33:21):
of the day, and when it's blazing hot outside, running
has zero appeal whatsoever. So I have to if I'm
going to run, it's got to be in the morning.
But then, well, what do I do to take a
break in the afternoon. So I have been hauling my
bike out and the good news is it can fit
in the back of my car without my dealing with
the bike rack stuff if I just put the seats down.
So if I have to take anyone with me, then
(33:43):
the bike racks coming out. But if it's just me,
I can stick it in my car, drive somewhere, bike
for thirty forty minutes, come back and you know, it's
been an hour long break. And I don't do it
every day, of course, but once or twice a week
has been a really nice thing to add to my
life this summer.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
How about you?
Speaker 4 (33:59):
El, Yeah, well, yesterday I felt like I needed a break,
so I went to the beach. It's about five minutes
from my house look, and it was so great. I
just sat there, I smelled the salty air. I pulled
out some watercolors, did a little painting. I am not
an artist, but it's just really fun to put brush
(34:20):
to paper and it was definitely the highlight of my
day and maybe my week.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Awesome. Awesome, Well, I love that you just doing something
just for fun right too. It has nothing to do
with your career or nothing to do with like you're
trying to be known for it or anything. But that's
probably a good thing to model to children as well
to our adolescence that you know we do stuff just
because we want to do stuff, absolutely absolutely. All right, Well, Alice,
why don't you let our listeners know where they can
(34:45):
find you.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:47):
So, I have a website called Brightstory dot info. And
I also have another blog that I write on which
actually has some of the principles of bright Story. It's
called Happy Asian Woman and it's on Happy Asianwoman dot
substack dot com.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
And that's just.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
Helping people find more joy and meaningful and purposeful lives.
And I like to incorporate those principles into my coaching,
so as I'm figuring out it out on my own,
I try to bring it into my work, so they
kind of work together.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us.
We really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Thank you, Laura.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Well we are back. That was a great interview with
Alice Chen talking all things college admissions and the life
skills that kids are also developing as they become young
adults through that transition of the last year or so
of high school. So, Sarah question, what are you doing
about saving for college and do you plan to pay
(35:45):
for your kids to go to college.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Yes, we plan to cover our kids undergraduate college don't
know about grad school because the feasibility of that could
get you know, multiplying times three could be a lot.
And by that point they are adults, so that might
be more or of like we can offer help, but
for undergraduate we definitely do want to cover those expenses.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
And so we do two things.
Speaker 4 (36:07):
We do.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Florida, as a lot of states, have actually five twenty nine,
but they also have something called the prepaid program, where
like since the kids have been little, we paid like
these little monthly installments. It's like a couple hundred dollars
per kid that by the time they turn eighteen is
actually like the full cost of going to any state
University of Florida school.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Like it's done, you're done.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
So of course if they don't go to one of
those schools, you get whatever they're charging I think for
tuition towards whatever other schools. So you're not going to
throw it out the window no matter what. But pretty
cool thing, and I think, you know, there's at least
some chance that somebody will go to a Florida school,
so that's great. And then we also do five twenty nine.
In addition, we really didn't start on that as early
(36:50):
as we probably should have, probably around twenty twenty when
it was like, oh, money is accumulating a little more,
what should we do with it? But we stuck with it,
and we do it as an auto draft for each kid.
We do a little bit more for the older kids
because Genevieve has a longer runway. Will we have the
entire amount of like a private college by the time
(37:10):
they hit college. No, but I think we'll have enough
of a dent that cash flowing the rest would be fine.
And then if any of them do end up going
to like a public college, then actually we would you know,
that would be money they could use for any kind
of graduate education as well.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Yeah, it is very important for me to pay for
my kids to go wherever they would like to go.
That is something that has I've wanted to do since
having kids, and so, yes, that is what we will
be doing. And to that end, saved money from when
they were born in college funds for them and so
(37:48):
got a long time still to go with Henry, but
Jasper is about ready to go and that money should
mostly cover it. And obviously you can cash flow whatever
it doesn't but yeah, it's it's it's pricey, but I
don't know. I guess I feel like it's really hard
starting adult life with a lot of loans. And it's
one thing if you're going into profession you know, is
(38:09):
high paid, like you're taking out loans for medical school
or something like that. But with undergraduate I think it's
a little bit more uncertain, and then that even can
affect what you wind up doing. I mean, you might
not wind up going to a professional school because you
have to start paying back these loans, and even if
you can defer them, it just feels like a big
load on top of you. So if I have the
ability to not have my kids have to do that,
(38:33):
then that's what we've been doing to jobs for you know,
like my husband and me both working. One of the
upsides of being a two income family is being able
to hopefully make some choices like that. So I don't know.
I mean, I know some families there's in the whole
frugal living community that you know, oh, we don't have
(38:54):
to pay for kids college because it's good for them
to work and learn how to do it. I'm like, well,
you know, you can't really cover that much money working.
It's not like when people could get a job over
the summer and pay for the year's tuition. I mean
it's almost impossible for a kid to do that now.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Yeah, I mean there are some pretty awesome pathways to
very affordable public education in our state. I got to say,
And I think that that's wonderful because we need families
who don't necessarily have great incomes to have their kids
be able to get an awesome start. But I also
feel like if I have the money and I currently
(39:33):
we're working for that, like, I don't know what else
I'd want to spend it on. More Like, to me,
this is like very high on my list of like
of my priorities. It's really way way up there. And
I will say my parents, who didn't have super high incomes,
they covered all of my expensive private college and I'm
really really grateful for that because I loved my experience
there and I don't think that was super easy for them.
(39:54):
But they must have been very much like slow and
steady put it away, because I didn't ever actually hear anything,
like you know, it didn't seem like it was hard,
even though like doing the numbers, I'm sure it wasn't.
It wasn't negligible, So thanks parents exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
You know, I was very glad to not start my
adult life with loans as well. So, but obviously there
are ways to do college cheaper. I mean, my husband
went to a state school on a full ride. There
may be fewer of those now, but it was it
was an option for him back in the day. But again,
it's like, there are ways to do it if you can't,
(40:31):
but if you can, we both feel like that's something
we really want to do for our kids, and that's
top of our financial goals. So yeah, there you go.
All right, Well, this has been best of both worlds.
I've been interviewing Alice Chen about college admissions and life
skills that kids learn in the process of applying. We
will be back next week with more on making work
(40:53):
and life fit together. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com
or at the Underscore shoe Box on Instagram, and you.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join
us next time for more on making work and life
work together.
Hi. I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
and speaker.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician,
writer and course creator. We are two working parents who
love our careers and our families.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
how real women manage work, family, and time for fun,
from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.
We want you to get the most out of life.
Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This
episode is airing in early September of twenty twenty four.
(00:47):
Probably most of our listeners sending kids back to school
either last month or this week, so we're doing some
school related content here. I am going to be interviewing
Alice Chen, who is the owner of Bright Story Admissions Insulting,
So it's going to be talking a little bit about
the college admissions process, things that people with children in
middle school or high school might want to think about,
(01:08):
but not just the college admissions process, because as we've
talked about on this podcast many times, it seems to
swallow up senior year for many kids. And that's a
shame because it's also a time of life when kids
are learning to be adults, and there's a lot that
goes into that. And so Alice talks about all the
life skills that you can think about the college admissions
(01:30):
process as developing, and to some degree is the kids
get those life skills that can be even more important
in terms of how they talk about themselves, how they
think about their strengths, how they learn to present themselves,
how they learn to manage a big project with multiple parts,
to manage their time, all of those very very important things. So, Sarah,
(01:54):
do you remember applying to college. It's been a long
time for both of us now I do.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
I mean the applications mostly on paper, but I would
type my essays like using like word or word perfect
or whatever we were.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Using back then.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
My dad helped me edit them, but definitely didn't write
any of them. And one random vision that came into
my head when we're talking about college admissions is, you
know you'd get the paper, not the acceptances or rejections,
but like the big books in the mail that would
like show like the glossy brochures. Okay, so I cut
the ones I had applied to out and I put
them all up on my cabinet wall. I taped them
(02:30):
all up, and there were like seven of them, and
then like, I got rejected from two of them, so
I took those down, but I was just so proud
of having the five open that I had gotten to
look at Like it was like, oh, I get to
choose from all these flavors of ice cream or something
like that, and so yeah, that's my it's my college
application process in a nutshell. I did not apply early
decision anywhere.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, I think that was starting to be a thing,
but it wasn't quite as big a thing when we
were applying. Certainly one difference. I mean, you applied to
seven schools and that was probably seen as a normal
number or even on the high side, and kids these
days definitely apply to a dozen or sometimes even more.
That it's been facilitated by it being online and a
(03:11):
lot of this being a college app that a lot
of the common app a lot of the colleges except
the common app sometimes with a little bit of supplementation.
But it certainly has become a little bit more doable
to apply to a lot of places. I think I
actually wrote one or two of my essays or at
least the application stuff on a typewriter, Like I put
the form into a typewriter and then wrote with the typewriter.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I think I did the same thing.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, I had a typewriter. I liked playing with it.
And of course we got our decisions by mail torture.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Torture, I mean, and you didn't know when it was coming,
like you know, at least I think with a lot
of them. Right, it's like you know exactly when it's
going to come, and you can refresh your email and
you can be like, Okay, I'm ready for this moment,
I'm in the right place.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Whatever.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
No, it was like roulette every day at the mailbox.
So like I don't want to go through that again,
and I'm glad my kids.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Won't have to.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Yeah, no, I remember I had been at a conference.
I went to a residential high school, so I had
a little mailbox for me, like a dorm mailbox. And
it couldn't take big stuff in it, so if you
ever had a package or a big envelope, they'd put
a little slip of paper. And so I had been
at a conference with a group and we'd you know,
contain the van back and I walk in It's early April,
(04:26):
and I don't see anything in my mailbox. I'm like,
what what? And then I open it and there's little
slips in there, so I was like, ah, okay, that
sounds good. So then you know, take it up to
the counter to get envelopes and hand the slips, and
of course the person behind the counter is like, so
(04:47):
super fun. It was fun. It was a good time.
But yeah, I mean, it's so much has changed with it.
It's fascinating to go through this as the parental version
of it. But we definitely for our listeners who are
in this stage of life to turn down the pressure
(05:09):
a little bit. I think some of this is self imposed.
There are a lot of wonderful schools out there who
accept a reasonably high proportion of the young people who apply,
And so your kid is going to wind up somewhere
amazing and wherever they go, that is not the sole
(05:33):
thing that determines their lives, Whereas the relationship you have
with your kid is a huge part of your experience
and their experience of their last few years before they
are launched out into the world. So hoping that people
could keep that in mind, well, we're about to. I
guess we'll do the interview portion now with Alice Chen
(05:55):
of Bright Story Admissions Consulting. So Sarah and I are
delighted to welcome Alice Chen to the program. Alice, can
you introduce yourself to our listeners?
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Well, first, I just want to say I'm a huge
fan of the podcast. I've been listening for years and
I've read so many of your books, So thank you
for having me. Yes, so again, my name is Alice Chen.
I'm based in the San Francisco Bay area. I'm a
Stanford grad. I'm a professional journalist, and I run a
boutique college consulting firm called Bright Story. We specialize in
(06:29):
helping high performing teams get into top schools. But something
that's really unique about my practice is in recent years,
I've shifted away from just purely getting kids into college,
but focusing more on like the long game, so preparing
students for life. And I use the college application process
and prep process as a way to teach life skills.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Because there are a lot of life skills involved in
a big project like this, right.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
I think that is one mistake families make when they
come to me is they often think it's just academics
will get you in.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
But the landscape has.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
Changed so much, especially in recent years, that I think
you really need something to stand out. And a lot
of times I find that when my students are doing
this standout thing, they're gaining a lot of life skills
in the process, so it's fun.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Yeah. Well, let's talk a little bit about how college
admissions has changed over the past few decades. I know
a lot of our listeners, whether they have kids in
that age range of not of you know, high school
aged kids, they probably went through the process themselves, but
it may have been at least ten years ago, probably
more like fifteen, twenty or a little more. What has
(07:45):
changed over the past two decades or so in the
college admissions landscape.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Yeah, well, I think it's just gotten a lot more competitive.
Like when I applied to college a long time ago,
it was maybe twelve percent admit rate to a place
like Stanford, and now it's less than four percent. And
I would say it's a combination of things. There are
more people in America, there are more people globally, so
there's just more competition. And after COVID happened and a
(08:13):
lot of schools went test optional, Like the application rates
shot up because I think so many more people are
applying just to see if they have a shot to
get in.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
And the common app has changed this too, I mean
over the past few decades. If you want to think
back even further in sort of the historical college admissions landscape, Yes.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
For sure, I think it's just easier to apply to
these schools A lot of times, a lot of the
essays replicate, so you're not writing that many more essays
for extra schools.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
And so how many colleges do people generally apply to
these days?
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
I often recommend applying to maybe twelve schools and getting
arranged within those schools. And but I've seen some of
my top students who have gotten like great results, they
might be applying to like fifteen or twenty. Like when
they're done with me, I see that they apply to
a bunch more, and I'm like, oh, okay.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
And I think.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Initially i'd be like, you should really focus on the
number of schools you apply and produce excellent work. But
I have seen that when they apply to more, they
are getting more admissions.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Interesting, so families come to you, when are they normally
coming to in the whole process in terms of how
old the kids are when in the high school journey.
Maybe you can talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
Yeah, a lot of families tend to come to me
junior year. That's like a very prime time as they're
like gearing up. But I have had some people approach
me as young as sixth grade and want to get
like an intro call in. And typically for those families,
I don't actually take them because I really value mental
(09:55):
health and I want kids to have a childhood and
just experience their middle school years without a ton of pressure.
So typically I do accept students going into freshman year.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
All right, but junior year isn't too late. If somebody's like, well,
I hadn't even thought about college until junior year, Now
you're not doomed at that point.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
No, I mean I have people. I'm sure I'll get
inquiries this fall. Yeah, so at that point, it's more
like packaging and shaping. But if you come earlier, then
you can really think about like life goals and more
like big picture strategy. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
So when I mean, we're talking about teenagers here, and
I'm not sure how many of them have a big
picture strategy when you are true sixteen seventeen years old,
I mean, what does that initial conversation even look like?
Speaker 4 (10:39):
Then it depends on the student. You'd be surprised. I
would say that for some reason, I do attract a
lot of like high performing students, and so a lot
of times they come in with a clear direction of
what they want. Sometimes with younger students, they're like all
over the place, and I'm totally.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Cool with that too.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
I might send them away with like a personality assessment
or build brainstorm dream jobs, and I'll say, hey, this
is good practice for finding a job in the future
or a field. Is like go google like interesting people
in your field and just send them a cold email,
ask them if you can talk to them for ten
or fifteen minutes and ask some questions about their field.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
So it really depends on the student.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
But I would say that typically the student that comes
to me is more like motivated and that type of thing.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
But do kids need to know what they're going to
be doing as they're going into the college admissions process?
I guess what I'm trying to ask here is I
feel like so much of this has gotten like you
have to know what your path is in life, and
you can't just be a good student who's done well
at two different activities that you like. That that's not
(11:48):
well packaged. I guess if that's what makes sense.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think it
really depends on the types of school.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
You're looking at.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
So if you're looking at like the tippy top, I
do think that students need like a very cohesive narrative.
With that being said, a lot of times to take
the pressure off, I'm like, Okay, you can probably change
majors at any time in college, so let's just go
with what your current interests are. You don't have to
have like the next fifty years planned out, but what
are you interested in today? And so with those type
(12:20):
of students, that's typically.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
What I do.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
And then again, like, if you're not going for as
competitive of a school, I think you could be a
little bit broader. But for the top schools, you need
like a super strong narrative.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Let's talk about that. What does a narrative mean when
we're talking about sixteen seventeen year old children.
Speaker 4 (12:39):
I know, I know it's and sometimes I feel bad
about saying stuff like this because it's gotten so much
more competitive than when I went to school. But I
think a narrative is like a general area of interest.
A lot of times they have had like an extracurricular
passion project, and some of them come in with like
crazy stuff that they've done, and I'm like, you know,
(13:02):
you don't even need college at this point, like you've
created a viable product, a viable app or something like
And I hope to help take the pressure off of them.
But basically it's telling their story, like why they did
what they did. Maybe there's a personal tie in how
they want to contribute to the world, how they want
to impact the world, And sometimes what they do in
(13:23):
college remains the same, and sometimes they go in a
completely different direction. But I think it's just like, at
that point in time, can you create like a cohesive narrative.
And it's a good skill to have, you know, like
any time you're applying for a job, you're going to
need it and maybe you change careers. But I think
it comes through like self reflection and knowing what you
like at that point.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
In time, because the idea of the narrative is, let's
say a child has done a lot with soccer, and
then you would construct other things to support that interest,
showing the interest in that, like that you went deep
into it, or like doing a vol into your project
associated with so not just playing soccer. It's that you
(14:05):
helped at a soccer camp in the summer, right, Or
maybe you could give a few examples for people.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Ah, that's a great question.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
This is tough because I don't want to talk about
any current students that I'm working with. But for example,
I have a student in recent years who was interested
in research and science, and so she actually during the pandemic,
her parents were both working big busy jobs and she
was home alone and she actually created a lab in
(14:35):
her garage.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
She invented a new biofuel.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
So she took at home material she would buy them
on eBay and things like that, and she read through
like maybe dozens or hundreds of journal articles to come
up with a protocol of how to create a biofuel.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
And she went out and she got a bunch.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
Of different specimens, different types of plants, and like experimented
to see which one would be the most efficient. She
found like an invasive species, and it's like ten times
more efficient than corn as a starter crop. It doesn't
need water and all this stuff. So her narrative would
be actually the most impressive part of this is that
(15:14):
she did it all alone, and then she wants science
firm and things like that. But typically students who do
these type of big research projects, they will have a
mentor they will have a lot of funding from their
schools and things like that. But I think the most
important part of her narrative was that she did it
on her own. And then actually in working with her,
I was like, you don't need these top schools. You
(15:35):
can start a company, right, And that puts you in
a very different position when you think colleges are going
to want me rather than I need the college. And
so I think it helped her develop a lot of
confidence in knowing what her strengths were. So not every
student is like that, but it's like that type of
cohesive story, or like a parent had cancer and I
(15:56):
want to be a cancer researcher. Things like that. Like
the environment, it just growing up with wildfires. Now I've
developed these apps to like help predict wildfires. So it's
stuff like that a personal tie in that hits like
a big world problem ideally, and then what you've taken
to do that. I know it sounds very intense, and
there is this population of students who are doing that.
(16:18):
My personal my own children are not doing that, but
I know what people do and what it takes to
get in.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Yeah, I was gonna say, I'm not doing any biofuels
in my basement, nor are any of my kids, So.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
I know I don't think we ever will be.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
But you know, that's why I'm focused on life skills though,
right because I know for my own kids, do you
want that stress and that pressure, like you don't need
a top school?
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Like what can I do to teach them today to prepare?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
All right, Well, we're going to take a quick ad
break and then we'll be back talking more about college
and life skills in general. Well, I am back with
Alice Chen, who helps teenagers with college admissions but also
(17:06):
building life skills through the process of applying to college,
figuring out who they are, what might interest them, things
like that. We've been talking about building a narrative, which
is just you know, I think about this when people
sometimes ask me, well, why did you write this book?
And I can't just be like, because I'm a writer
and I needed to write a book. I mean, it's
(17:28):
like you have to come up with some compelling origin story.
And so I imagine that that is a life skill that
you are teaching children as well.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
I mean I always want them to have a personal
tie in if possible, and once they actually create this
narrative with me, if you will, like it's something that
they can keep using and adapting, like when they apply
to grass school jobs, fellowships, things like that. And so
we go through the process and I actually approach it
like I would a journalist. So I asked them a
ton of questions, like if I were reporting the story.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
What would I want to know?
Speaker 4 (18:02):
And so I asked them a ton of questions and
then I'm like, oh, put that in, Oh put that in, Like, oh,
you're funny. You should write with a funny voice, like
bring your personality out and things like that.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Awesome. So with that, I mean, when you see families
approaching the college process or they're in it somewhere, what
are the biggest mistakes that they wind up making.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
Yeah, I mean I think again, a lot of families
focus too much on academics. And if you're going for
I would say top one hundred schools, Yes, grades and
test scores are a big thing, but.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
I think they don't think about life skills.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
They don't think about extracurriculars and passion projects enough, and
they focus too much just on academics.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Okay, but with that, I mean, how should kids be
focusing their time then? I mean, I guess the good
grades is kind of like maybe the table stakes, right,
But do you do like one or two things? Should
you do a couple different things? I mean, what would
you recommend?
Speaker 4 (19:01):
Yeah, I would recommend, you know, definitely you need the academics,
and then on top of that, maybe two or three
things max and go deep. I mean maybe that's like
per year though, right, because you have four years, and
so I would also say definitely, I encourage my students
to have like one passion project in their high school career,
(19:23):
to just play around with, explore, create something on their own,
that type of thing.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah, and one of them you mentioned just now, the
like idea of applying to top one hundred schools, and
then you know, there's obviously more than one hundred schools
in the university. I'm guessing that a lot of people
haven't even heard of some number of the top one
hundred schools. I mean, the schools we've heard of are
either the most competitive ones out there or are ones
(19:50):
that have a really big football team. Right, that's kind
of the extent of people's college knowledge. How should families
go about finding there are schools that might have a
more reasonable admissions rate but still be very good schools
that do great things with their kids, but that you
haven't heard of because they're not an IVY league and
they don't win the College Bowl championship.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
Yeah, there are definitely various resources, Like oftentimes I'm like
chat GPT as your friend, enter it in with all
of your parameters and your statistics and see what comes out.
There are various search engines where you can again enter
in geography, size and things like that. And then one
book that I really enjoyed was this book called Colleges
(20:33):
That Change Lives And there's actually a website associated with that,
but basically it was written by a journalist and he
really evaluated colleges that give students a good learning experience,
like small class sizes, access to professors, high student satisfaction,
and he narrowed it down to primarily small liberal arts schools.
(20:54):
And it's interesting because everybody wants to go for that
big state school or that prestigious Ivy League school, which
which is like seventy five hundred people for undergrad and
you're going to be top by people just a few
years older than you. As ta's you're not going to
get access to small group classes with a professor. And
so that's why I would highly encourage people to look
(21:14):
at the smaller liberal arts schools.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Yeah, you know, it's funny that you just said, like
put in your parameters in chat GPT Again, if I'm
seventeen years old, how do I even know what my
parameters are? Like, how would you go about thinking about this?
I mean, you know, we're like obviously my listeners know
we have a seventeen year old and we're going through this.
But it's like, okay, people like, well, what size city
(21:40):
do you want to be at? It's like, I don't know.
I mean maybe not two hundred people, but I don't
have many parameters beyond that.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
I don't know, right, I think parameters would be like
where in the country do you want to be?
Speaker 3 (21:54):
What industry are you interested in?
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Later, like, if my students are interested in film, I'll
say okay, or LA and New York. If you want
to do tech, maybe do Bay Area that type of thing,
because I do think that where you go to school,
oftentimes people end up there, alumni networks are stronger, etc.
So I would say geography is something knowing whether you
want to be in a big city or not or
(22:16):
in a more rural area.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
The size of the school.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
So if it's like super large, I would say that
there are a lot of resources and a lot of
diversity in terms of classes and professors, but you might
not get as much contact with people, and you'll have
to be more of like a self starter, Whereas if
you go to a super small liberal arts school, you'll
have a lot of contact with your classmates, the social
(22:39):
fabric might be stronger. So if you're not a super
self starter, I would probably encourage kids to go to
a smaller place where they would be seen and have
more support.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
So it's stuff like.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
That, Yeah, And then again like areas of interest in
terms of majors and things like that, so ensuring that
the major exists that is strong, that their resources dedicated
to it, and things like that.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yeah. I was talking with one family recently that you know,
mentioned one parameter for them was if the child was
going to want mom and dad to come to things,
then they needed to choose a school that was kind
of within like let's say a four hour driving distance,
because otherwise it was going to be somewhat harder to
just get there for the weekend to go to the kids'
(23:28):
theater performance or go to a intermural soccer game that
they were having that was important to them. So that
was another criteria that might wind up being important to
people too.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Yeah, you're totally right about that.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
And one thing, since this is best of both worlds
and we think about family and life beyond college, I
think just even thinking of where your family of origin
is and whether you want to be closer to them
in the long run, because once you have kids, you know,
it's great to have family nearby.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
So actually I did grad school and Chicago.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
And the thing that surprised me was like almost everyone
that I knew like grew up in Illinois.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
They never left for college.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
They were there and they were friends with people for decades,
Whereas in the Bay Area, I feel like people are
very transient. They move here for jobs and things like that.
But I definitely agree that there is value to staying
close to home if you will, and having that family support.
I think America is very transient and it's nice to
have that support.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Absolutely. Talking a little bit more about the actual parts
of college admission, the SAT changed this year. I mean
during COVID we had the whole thing with some places
being test optional. I think some places have gone back
and forth on that now, but then we also had
the rollout of the digital SAT this year. I wonder
what you're telling your kids that you're working with about
(24:49):
tests these days, and how they should prepare for them,
how important they might be, anything like that.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
Yeah, for the types of kids I get, and for
the types of schools they want, I always recommend that
they take the test. Like for a lot of schools,
especially at these more challenging schools, they just want to
see that you have that score to make sure that
you can handle the work. And that's why a lot
of the schools like MIT have brought the test back,
because it puts you at a disadvantage to apply without
(25:17):
a test. They're taking more of a risk on you
because they don't want to admit you and have you
not do well. And so if you're aiming for a
competitive school, I would say, take it, and whether you
want to submit is another story, but typically a role
of thumb for that is like, if you're at the
average score above, I do recommend submitting, or maybe with
(25:39):
if you're like within strikingness is like ten twenty thirty
points below. But again, like for the caliber of schools,
you do need to take that test too well, and
you do need to prepare, whether that's on your own,
hiring somebody taking test prep but take it seriously.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah, so just making sure that whatever score you're reporting
is with in the range for what that schools. Although
I guess as places aren't reported, as kids aren't reporting it,
the average is going to change because it's like, if
you're under a fifteen hundred, why would anyone report it
then or something. I don't know, it's exactly.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
One of the downfall of test optional is it's actually
made it harder because the scores are going up, and
so it's sad I feel for kids these days to
get in just because it's a very different landscape.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Yeah, very much. Well, so let's talk about what life
skills are though that you said, like, because it is
so competitive and who knows if anyone's going to get
into the top twelve schools or whatever they are. It's
somewhat of a lottery for some of it, as it
is for sure, But what skills can you learn through
(26:50):
the process of applying to college and how my parents
think about supporting their children through that learning process as
they are applying to schools.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Yeah, you know, I've been thinking this top one I
think is sort of a skill as well as a mindset.
And I feel like a lot of students who come
to me, I've noticed that they don't see how amazing
they are, Like, I feel like they lack confidence. It
comes through in their essays where on the outside they
have all the accolades, but on the inside they're quite
nervous or they don't know like their strengths. And so
(27:24):
I would say confidence is a huge thing. And so
with my students. For example, I had a student who
came in with excellent grades. SAT score in she broke
fifteen hundred, and I'm like, well, why aren't you applying.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
To the top schools?
Speaker 4 (27:40):
And she said, oh, my parents have a kid and
that kid got a sixteen hundred, So I'm not going
to apply. And I'm like, what, No, you know, just
because like, don't care what other people are doing. You
always should put yourself out there. And so yeah, I
have other students who have more concerns about social confidence,
and so for those type of students, I'll be like, Okay,
(28:02):
your assignment is to go talk to your teacher twice
a week, ask them how their weekend was, or get
phone numbers from people, invite them to hang out that
type of thing. So I think there's a confidence issue.
I would say also with COVID, there's been so much
isolation and screen time that getting kids away from their
screens and into real life is super important.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Well, we're going to take a one more quick ad
break and then we're going to be back talking more
about life skills that kids can develop. Okay, so I
am back with Alice ten. We are talking about all
(28:46):
things college admission, but more broadly what kids can learn
in the course of doing it. So you're saying confidence
Sometimes kids need to just decide to try, even if
there's someone in the universe who's done better. But so
what there always is that exactly getting to interact with
people in the real universe, like asking your teachers for
(29:07):
recommendations or figuring out how you can navigate situations. What
else are people learning?
Speaker 4 (29:12):
Yeah, I would say how to position themselves. Like a
lot of times I'll read people's resumes and they'll be
like super technical and I don't even understand what's on them.
But then I teach them how to translate it into
plain English and we talk about like scope and impact
and things like that. So part of it is learning
how to communicate what you bring to the table. And
(29:34):
a lot of times like their leaders, Like one of
my students was doing research and she talked about how
she was one of the top programmers and like the
lead person in her lab. And I was like, Okay,
who's in your lab and she said college students and
grad students And I said, wait, you're one of the
top people as a high schooler and she said yes.
And I said, well, would you say that you are
(29:57):
like perhaps an informal mentor and she said, actually, the
think about that, Like my mentor was off site in Canada,
and so I was the person really in the lab
and people would come to meet with questions. So yeah,
I agree that that's something I could say, So we put.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
That in the application.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
So I think a lot of it is getting them
to reflect and realize the impact and the value that
they bring and communicate it to others, because you can
be absolutely amazing. But if you can't share that message,
only you're going to know. So opportunities come to those
who put themselves out there and who can communicate how
special and amazing they are.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Absolutely. And as parents, I mean, we know how special
and awesome and wonderful our kids are. But what can
we do as we are sort of supporting kids through
this process that ultimately they have to do, right, I
mean it's we're not the ones on novice applying for them.
They need to be there doing it and thinking about
(30:56):
all of it and managing the process. So what should
we be doing? Yeah, to be supportive but not too
in it.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
Yeah, I agree, I think overall support and encouragement. Like
with my own child, I'll tell her, oh my gosh,
like I could see you as a great coach one
day because she asks really great questions and I'm like,
you've got great emotional intelligence. So whatever strengths you see,
calling that out and just like encouraging them, I would
say that's probably the primary thing. Maybe giving them a
(31:26):
gentle nudge to get them out of their comfort zones.
But I'm sure that as high schoolers that gets harder.
I would say that there are parents that hire out.
That's why people bring in someone like me. So I'm
sure two people can say the same thing, but if
your parent says it, you're not going to listen.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
But if like a partial, impartial.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
Like third person gives you an assignment to go talk
to people, you're going to do it, right, And so
that's where I think, to like alleviate family tension at times,
it could be beneficial to bring in a third person.
But yeah, I think and also modeling in your own life,
like you and Sarah are such self starters and you
(32:06):
guys have created this amazing community and all that kind
of stuff. Your kids are going to absorb that. So
just focusing on yourself as well.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
And what if the kid is really feeling a lot
of stress about it, because I'm sure it is a
stressful process. I mean, you're figuring out at least some
chunk of your future. But from the perspective of being
an adult, you could say, well, it's not your entire future, right,
so sure, what can we do to maybe even lower
the tension level a little bit?
Speaker 4 (32:33):
Yeah, I totally agree, and that's why I think it's
this focus on life skills and telling your students what
your philosophy and outlook on life is, introducing them to
various people who have done various things, and I just
tell stories to my kids a lot of like, oh,
this person didn't go to college, and look they did
(32:54):
this amazing thing, right, And so I think just emphasizing
your own philosophy awesome.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Well, we always end with a love of the week,
so this is something that we are enjoying right now.
So I was gonna throw out there. We're recording this
in summer. This is running a little bit closer toward
back to school season. But I've really been enjoying riding
my bike. This is especially I mean I always like
to take some sort of active break in the middle
(33:21):
of the day, and when it's blazing hot outside, running
has zero appeal whatsoever. So I have to if I'm
going to run, it's got to be in the morning.
But then, well, what do I do to take a
break in the afternoon. So I have been hauling my
bike out and the good news is it can fit
in the back of my car without my dealing with
the bike rack stuff if I just put the seats down.
So if I have to take anyone with me, then
(33:43):
the bike racks coming out. But if it's just me,
I can stick it in my car, drive somewhere, bike
for thirty forty minutes, come back and you know, it's
been an hour long break. And I don't do it
every day, of course, but once or twice a week
has been a really nice thing to add to my
life this summer.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
How about you?
Speaker 4 (33:59):
El, Yeah, well, yesterday I felt like I needed a break,
so I went to the beach. It's about five minutes
from my house look, and it was so great. I
just sat there, I smelled the salty air. I pulled
out some watercolors, did a little painting. I am not
an artist, but it's just really fun to put brush
(34:20):
to paper and it was definitely the highlight of my
day and maybe my week.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Awesome. Awesome, Well, I love that you just doing something
just for fun right too. It has nothing to do
with your career or nothing to do with like you're
trying to be known for it or anything. But that's
probably a good thing to model to children as well
to our adolescence that you know we do stuff just
because we want to do stuff, absolutely absolutely. All right, Well, Alice,
why don't you let our listeners know where they can
(34:45):
find you.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:47):
So, I have a website called Brightstory dot info. And
I also have another blog that I write on which
actually has some of the principles of bright Story. It's
called Happy Asian Woman and it's on Happy Asianwoman dot
substack dot com.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
And that's just.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
Helping people find more joy and meaningful and purposeful lives.
And I like to incorporate those principles into my coaching,
so as I'm figuring out it out on my own,
I try to bring it into my work, so they
kind of work together.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us.
We really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Thank you, Laura.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Well we are back. That was a great interview with
Alice Chen talking all things college admissions and the life
skills that kids are also developing as they become young
adults through that transition of the last year or so
of high school. So, Sarah question, what are you doing
about saving for college and do you plan to pay
(35:45):
for your kids to go to college.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Yes, we plan to cover our kids undergraduate college don't
know about grad school because the feasibility of that could
get you know, multiplying times three could be a lot.
And by that point they are adults, so that might
be more or of like we can offer help, but
for undergraduate we definitely do want to cover those expenses.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
And so we do two things.
Speaker 4 (36:07):
We do.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Florida, as a lot of states, have actually five twenty nine,
but they also have something called the prepaid program, where
like since the kids have been little, we paid like
these little monthly installments. It's like a couple hundred dollars
per kid that by the time they turn eighteen is
actually like the full cost of going to any state
University of Florida school.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Like it's done, you're done.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
So of course if they don't go to one of
those schools, you get whatever they're charging I think for
tuition towards whatever other schools. So you're not going to
throw it out the window no matter what. But pretty
cool thing, and I think, you know, there's at least
some chance that somebody will go to a Florida school,
so that's great. And then we also do five twenty nine.
In addition, we really didn't start on that as early
(36:50):
as we probably should have, probably around twenty twenty when
it was like, oh, money is accumulating a little more,
what should we do with it? But we stuck with it,
and we do it as an auto draft for each kid.
We do a little bit more for the older kids
because Genevieve has a longer runway. Will we have the
entire amount of like a private college by the time
(37:10):
they hit college. No, but I think we'll have enough
of a dent that cash flowing the rest would be fine.
And then if any of them do end up going
to like a public college, then actually we would you know,
that would be money they could use for any kind
of graduate education as well.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Yeah, it is very important for me to pay for
my kids to go wherever they would like to go.
That is something that has I've wanted to do since
having kids, and so, yes, that is what we will
be doing. And to that end, saved money from when
they were born in college funds for them and so
(37:48):
got a long time still to go with Henry, but
Jasper is about ready to go and that money should
mostly cover it. And obviously you can cash flow whatever
it doesn't but yeah, it's it's it's pricey, but I
don't know. I guess I feel like it's really hard
starting adult life with a lot of loans. And it's
one thing if you're going into profession you know, is
(38:09):
high paid, like you're taking out loans for medical school
or something like that. But with undergraduate I think it's
a little bit more uncertain, and then that even can
affect what you wind up doing. I mean, you might
not wind up going to a professional school because you
have to start paying back these loans, and even if
you can defer them, it just feels like a big
load on top of you. So if I have the
ability to not have my kids have to do that,
(38:33):
then that's what we've been doing to jobs for you know,
like my husband and me both working. One of the
upsides of being a two income family is being able
to hopefully make some choices like that. So I don't know.
I mean, I know some families there's in the whole
frugal living community that you know, oh, we don't have
(38:54):
to pay for kids college because it's good for them
to work and learn how to do it. I'm like, well,
you know, you can't really cover that much money working.
It's not like when people could get a job over
the summer and pay for the year's tuition. I mean
it's almost impossible for a kid to do that now.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Yeah, I mean there are some pretty awesome pathways to
very affordable public education in our state. I got to say,
And I think that that's wonderful because we need families
who don't necessarily have great incomes to have their kids
be able to get an awesome start. But I also
feel like if I have the money and I currently
(39:33):
we're working for that, like, I don't know what else
I'd want to spend it on. More Like, to me,
this is like very high on my list of like
of my priorities. It's really way way up there. And
I will say my parents, who didn't have super high incomes,
they covered all of my expensive private college and I'm
really really grateful for that because I loved my experience
there and I don't think that was super easy for them.
(39:54):
But they must have been very much like slow and
steady put it away, because I didn't ever actually hear anything,
like you know, it didn't seem like it was hard,
even though like doing the numbers, I'm sure it wasn't.
It wasn't negligible, So thanks parents exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
You know, I was very glad to not start my
adult life with loans as well. So, but obviously there
are ways to do college cheaper. I mean, my husband
went to a state school on a full ride. There
may be fewer of those now, but it was it
was an option for him back in the day. But again,
it's like, there are ways to do it if you can't,
(40:31):
but if you can, we both feel like that's something
we really want to do for our kids, and that's
top of our financial goals. So yeah, there you go.
All right, Well, this has been best of both worlds.
I've been interviewing Alice Chen about college admissions and life
skills that kids learn in the process of applying. We
will be back next week with more on making work
(40:53):
and life fit together. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com
or at the Underscore shoe Box on Instagram, and you.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join
us next time for more on making work and life
work together.
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