December 19, 2024 • 17 mins
In his final month as the United States’ chief diplomat, Secretary of State Antony Blinken is racing around the globe, responding to conflicts in the Middle East and the latest developments in the war in Ukraine.
During a stop in New York, he sat down with host David Gura to talk about how he is preparing to hand over the country’s sprawling foreign policy portfolio to the incoming Trump administration.
Read more: Syria: Blinken Says US Weighs Sending Officials for Talks - Bloomberg
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Anthony Blincoln has about a month left as US Secretary
of State, and he's been racing around the world for meetings.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Whether it's Cutter, whether it's Egypt, whether it's Turkey, where
I was just last week.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Blincoln was there to talk about Syria and the wider
Middle East. He's also keeping tabs on Ukraine and the
fallout from recent no confidence votes in Europe. Blincoln spent
Thursday in New York at the United Nations. He's been
busy at a crucial moment, the run up to the
transfer of power from President Biden to President elect Trump.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
I want to be able to hand off to the
incoming administration the best possible hand to play in all
of these areas, in all of these challenges, because the
world doesn't stop just because we're in a political transition.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Thursday morning, I sat down with Blincoln in Bloomberg's New
York headquarters to get the latest news from the Middle
East and to have him reflect on his ten you're
at the State Department and share his outlook.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Let's get that conversation that we promised to you.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Joining us now with David Gera, the US Secretary of
State Anthony Blincoln.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
What it to you?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Thank you very much and welcome to our audience on
Bloomberg Radio and Bloomberg Television worldwide.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Mister Secretary, thank you very much for being here. Good
to be with you.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Last week I had a similar conversation with another member
of President Biden's cabinet, Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen. Part of
it was live on television, but we kept the conversation
going when the camera's cut away. This is the big
take from Bloomberg News. I'm David Gerra, and today on
(01:37):
the show, the seventy first Secretary of State Anthony Blincoln
on what's ahead in the Middle East and Ukraine and
how he's preparing the State Department for new leadership. Let's
start with Syria, and you've described this moment as one
of both promise and peril.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
You have what seems like a de facto government that
is a designated terrorist group, and you've said that the
US has been in contact with HDS. What specifically have
they said, I know there are other groups operating in
the country as well. What have they said about how
they might govern?
Speaker 3 (02:09):
What we've heard them say is positive. The question is
what are they actually going to do. We brought together
with Jordan, countries from around the region last week and
we came together to set expectations. What is the international community,
what are the neighbors looking for as this transition takes
place in Syria? And we all agreed we want to
see something that's inclusive, that's non sectarian, that respects minorities, women,
(02:31):
that deals with any chemical weapons that may be remaining
in Syria, that doesn't aly with ISIS or any of
the terrorist groups through are there. And the reason that's
so important is we want to make it clear to
HTS and all of the emerging authorities that the recognition
that they seek, the support that they seek a need
from the international community. Well, there's certain expectations that come
along with that. What everyone is focused on is what's
(02:51):
actually happening on the ground.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
What are they doing.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Are they working to build a transition in Syria that
brings everyone in. If they do that, and if they
meet some of these other tests that the international community
is looking for them to meet, then I think you
can see something very positive.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I look at this country that has a lot of
sanctions that are residual a lot of sanctions have been
in place for decades on Syria. Senator Chris Murphy of
Connecticut has called for a temporary suspension of sanctions. Is
that something that you would be amenable to and would
that be effective in helping you have more engagement with
what may be this new government.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
So we're looking at all the authorities we have. We're
looking at all of the sanctions, not only our own.
The United Nations has sanctions on HTS.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
It's leader.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
And I think what we need to see is actual
concrete steps building an inclusive, non sectarian government, a transition
eventually getting to an election. As we see these steps taken,
then I think we'll be able to respond, others will
be able to respond.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
There's been a lot of speculation that a ceasefire deal
could come together. When President Biden spoke about the deal
between Israel and has Belat, he was asked at the end,
do you think you can get a ceasefire deal by
the end of your tenure? So he's hoping and praying.
Is there anything that's happened that gives more grounds for
hope than prayer going forward?
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Here there is, and the reality is we should logically
be able to get this. And I say that with
all the caution that comes with that statement, because we've
been very close before, and we've had these Lucy in
the football moments where you're just ready to kick the
football and Lucy pulls it away. But what's changed is this,
Hamas knows that the cavalry is not coming to the rescue.
(04:22):
For months and months, it hoped it would get a
wider war with Hezbollah, with Iran, with Iranian aligned groups
coming in and creating more problems from Israel on more
fronts and helping Hamas endure.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
We now know that's not happening.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
They know it's not happening because of the very important
work that was done with us and with others dealing
with the unprecedented Iranian attacks on Israel, dealing with Hezbollah.
So I think that's concentrated minds among Hamas on the need.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
To complete the steal.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Having said that, it's always incredibly fraud and it's very
hard to get decisions made, it's hard to communicate, and
for all of those reasons, even as close as it is,
it can still move in.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
The other direction.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
We've all been fanning out, working with all of the
different partners who can make a difference and who may
have some leverage with communications with Hamas, whether it's Cutter,
whether it's Egypt, whether it's Turkey, where I was just
last week. The fundamental question right now is is Hamas
finally prepared to say yes? And if it does, we
(05:21):
get the hostages back, we get a ceasefire, we get
an immediate dramatic improvement in the lives of Palestinian children,
women and men who've been caught in this horrible crossfire
since October seventh of Hamas is making if they really
purport to care about the Palestinian people, they will say
yes and do it.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Now.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Let me ask you about that horrible crossfire, and it's
something that you've written about in a recent essay for
Foreign Affair, is the fact that millions have been displaced,
tens of thousands have been killed, Gaza has been kind
of reduced to rubble.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
You've made twelve trips to the region.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
How much regret do you have that kind of sustained
level of humanitarian aid hasn't made it into Gaza over
the course of this conflict.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
You know, from day one, we've tried to do several
things going back to October seventh. First to stand resolute
with Israel, to try to make sure that October seventh
would never happen again. Second to prevent this war from
going wider, because if that happened, if other fronts opened up,
whether it was with Iran, whether it was with Hezbolah,
these other groups, more death, more destruction, and it would
(06:18):
probably prolong what was going on in Gaza. And three
to do whatever we could to make sure that people
in Gaza were getting the assistance they need, We're getting
the protections they need, and we have been on this
virtually every single day, and we've seen moments when more
assistance was getting through. Then we've seen moments where where
it's ebbed and flowed. But this has a dramatic effect
on the lives and livelihoods of people in Gaza. The
(06:41):
last week or ten days there has been a noticeable improvement,
but we've seen that before and then we've seen it
fall off. The best way to finally deal with the
needs of the people would be down in the conflict,
would be to get the ceasefire, to get the hostages home.
That's the best play because you have an environment that
is unique, you have a population that's trapped in Gase.
It doesn't have any where to go. In most other conflicts,
(07:02):
people they can become refugees. That's not a good thing,
but it's better than being caught in the middle of
a hot war. And also you have an enemy in
the case of Hamas that's fully enmeshed with the civilian
population living in and under buildings, apartment buildings, schools, mosques, hospitals.
That doesn't obviate at all the responsibility that Israel has
(07:22):
to try to ensure that assistance gets to people who
need it and that people are protected as best possible.
And look, we've been working very hard to make sure
that as best we can we actually start to implement
plans for a better future for the region, or if
we don't have time to fully do that, to be
able to hand them off, not just getting the hostage
and cease fire deal, but having a clear plan for
(07:43):
what follows, a day after plan for Gaza, so that
there's no vacuum that Hamas can refill, that Israel can
pull out, and you can have Gaza stand up forwards people, administration, security, reconstruction.
We have done an extraordinary amount of work carrying through
what President Trump started with the Abraham Accords to get
normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia, which would be the
(08:04):
biggest game changer in the region. All of that is
ready to be handed over to the new administration and
hopefully they'll carry the ball forward.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
You mentioned that normalization deal.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
It with something this administration invested a lot in before
October seventh. Clear that the conversations has been going on.
There has been reporting that we're close to a breakthrough.
There can you shed any lightns ser of where those
conversations stand today.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
So one of the things I look back on is
on October tenth, a year ago, I was supposed to
go to Saudi Arabia and to Israel to work on
the Palestinian component of this normalization deal. And of course
that trip didn't happen because of October seven. But even
with Gaza, we've continued these conversations. We've continued this work,
and in terms of the agreements that are needed between
the United States and Saudi Arabia, they're pretty much ready
(08:44):
to go, and that would then trigger the normalization between
Israel and Saudi Arabia. But two things are required to
actually get that done. One is an end to the
conflict in Gaza. And two is having a credible pathway
toward a Palestinian state. As I said, all of the
work's been done, and hopefully we'll get to that end
of conflict in Gaza. They'll have to engage the conversation
on answering the Palestinian question, but the work is there,
(09:06):
and if that happens, this transforms the region. You have
Israel that's integrated in the region. There's a common security
architecture to deal with Iran. We saw that something we
put together embryonically. When Iran attacked Israel in an unprecedented
way direct attack, we not only for the first time,
participated in Israel's active defense, we brought other countries, including
countries in the region, into that defense. So you can
(09:28):
see what's possible in the future. But it requires an
end of the conflict in Gaza, and it requires moving
forward on the Palestinians coming up.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
As President Elect Trump readies for his return to the
White House, he and his closest aids are already meeting
with world leaders to discuss policy. How the Secretary of
State is navigating that After the break on Wednesday, Secretary
(09:58):
of State Anthony Blinkoln's down with Senator Marco Rubio, who
is President elect Trump's pick to succeed b.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Lincoln.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I asked the secretary how he's navigating. What is a
unique transition You've said of this new administration, you want
it passed the baton to them so they can get
off and running. Forgive me, but it does seem like
they are off and running. You had President Electrump meeting
in France with President Zelensky, President Macron, He's met with
Prime Minister Trudeau in Florida. His destiny to be the
special onboard the Middle East has been in the region
(10:25):
as well. Does that complicate the work that you are doing.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Look, there's one president at the time, one administration at
a time, but we're in very close contact with the
incoming administration.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
I spent a couple of tiles Field novel though, and
mean we used to talk about the logan action. It
does feel like these are different circumstances.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Look, I think there are a few things.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
I think there are a few things going on. First,
as they said, we've been in very close contact with
the incoming administration. I've spent a lot of time with
Senator Rubio, and Jake Salton, the National Security Advisor, with
Mike Waltz, his successor. We've had very good not only conversations,
but we're trying to make sure that we're as coordinated
as possible so that they know what we're looking at
doing in the remaining time that we have. I want
to be able to hand off to the incoming administration
(11:03):
the best possible hand to play in all of these areas,
in all of these challenges. Because the world doesn't stop
just because we're in a political transition. It's also normal
that countries around the world want to hear from the
incoming administration. They want to know what they can expect
so they can get ready for that. As long as
we're communicating closely, which we are, and as long as
we're working to again try to make this handoff as
(11:25):
effective as possible so that they can get moving on
the run because there's really no time to wait, then
I think that's a good thing.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Two more questions, the first of which is about Ukraine
at this stage, what you think Vladimir Putin is fighting for.
Is it to keep the land that he's taken, Is
it with the hope that he could get more land?
Or it's about something else entirely Is it about Ukraine's
sovereignty its relationship with the West, And if it's the latter,
how does that complicate potential piece talks when indeed they happen.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Look, Putin's had an imperial project for a long time,
and of course, first it started really close to home
with Chechnia many years ago, Georgia in eight Ukraine, the
first go round twenty fourteen, Ukraine, the second go around
twenty twenty two, and in his mind is the recreation
of a greater Russia. And you don't have to believe me,
just read what he said. He's been very clear about it.
(12:13):
He's failed in Ukraine. That proposition that he could erase
Ukraine from the map subsume it into Russia has failed.
And that's a result of the incredible courage of the
Ukrainian people. But it's also a result of the dozens
of countries that we rallied in defense of Ukraine to
make sure that they could repel this Russian aggression, prevent
the takeover if Kiev pushed the Russians back. And now
you have a front line that moves a little bit,
(12:35):
but probably won't move that much from where it is.
It would be good, I think if we could get
to ceasefire, if that's where the Ukrainians want to go.
But it has to be one that is just and durable,
And for it to be durable, you've got to have
some assurances built in that Russia can't simply rest refit
and then reattack. The pressure that we've exerted with sanctions,
(12:57):
with export controls is building and building. It's a heavier
and heavier weight on Russia. Everything that they try to
do takes longer, it's harder to do and costs more.
I think he wants to get out from under that yoke,
but I don't think he's going to give up on
his imperial ambitions. And so you have to make sure
that whatever results, if President Trump is able to bring
this to a landing of some kind, that it's one
(13:18):
that will endure, and that means necessary assurances that Ukraine
has what it takes to deter future Russian aggression.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Lastly, you are such a spokesman and evangelist for multilateralism.
We talk a lot about the importance of alliances, and
we're at this prespice where the incoming administration seems to
give that less difference than you. How confident are you
in the endurance of alliances? Be they sort of the
big multilateral ones, G seven, G twenty, smaller groups that
you've sort of fostered and grown over the course, if
you're a tenure, are they well buffeted enough that you
(13:48):
think they'll continue no matter what.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Look, I believe as long as they continue to demonstrate
their value to the United States, they will endure, and
I'm convinced that they will.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Look, there are two things that.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
We know, or at least that I believe, and that
we've tried to put in practice. One is, there's no
substitute for US engagement in US leadership around the world,
because if we're not doing it, chances are someone else is,
and probably not in a way that reflects our own interests,
our own values, or maybe just as bad no one is,
And then you get a vacuum. It's filled by bad
things before it's filled with good things, and inevitably those
come back to bite us. But the flip side of
(14:18):
that coin is just as important. Pretty much everything that
we're trying to do around the world that benefits the
American people, because that's our job is better achieved if
we're working with others, if we're cooperating, if we're coordinating,
even the United States simply can't get the job done alone.
And that's where our alliances and partnerships come in. You know,
It's interesting to me we've built over the last four
years much greater convergence among European countries, countries in the
(14:42):
Indo Pacific, and US on how to approach the challenges
posed by China, probably the most consequential relationship that we have,
and many of these countries have. We're now on the
same page. And the reason I know that that's working
is every time I meet with my Chinese counterpart long E,
he spends usually half an hour forty five minutes at
the top of the meeting complaining about everything we've done
(15:03):
to align these countries. And it's not about containing China
or holding China down. It's about dealing with the real
problems that we have with China and that are affecting
the lives of our people. We're much more effective in
changing the policies that a country like China pursues, or
any other country with whom we have a challenging relationship.
I think that value proposition is real and it's clear.
And last thing, you look at what we've been able
(15:24):
to do in Ukraine. Yes, we've devoted a lot of
resources to that, about one hundred billion dollars, although most
of that was spent in the United States to build
the necessary weapons for Ukraine, good American jobs. As a result,
we've done hundred million dollars. Our allies and partners one
hundred and fifty billion dollars.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
We've had real burden sharing.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
They've picked up the load, and I think as we
go forward, we've now have allies and partners doing more
than they've ever done before. As long as other countries
are demonstrating that they're picking up their share, I think
these alliances and partnerships will endure. It's our comparative advantage.
We're the only country in the world that has these
alliances and partnerships that are voluntary, that are based on
(16:04):
shared interests, shared values.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
So for me, it's.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Really been one of the secrets to our success around
the world, and I think incoming administration hopefully we'll see
that and continue that.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Thank you again, nice to speak with you, great to
do with you.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
This is the big take from Bloomberg News. I'm David
Gura with a quick reminder. Tomorrow we'll release the second
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the global fertility industry. Subscribe to The Big Take to
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(16:47):
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Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Anthony Blincoln has about a month left as US Secretary
of State, and he's been racing around the world for meetings.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Whether it's Cutter, whether it's Egypt, whether it's Turkey, where
I was just last week.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Blincoln was there to talk about Syria and the wider
Middle East. He's also keeping tabs on Ukraine and the
fallout from recent no confidence votes in Europe. Blincoln spent
Thursday in New York at the United Nations. He's been
busy at a crucial moment, the run up to the
transfer of power from President Biden to President elect Trump.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
I want to be able to hand off to the
incoming administration the best possible hand to play in all
of these areas, in all of these challenges, because the
world doesn't stop just because we're in a political transition.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Thursday morning, I sat down with Blincoln in Bloomberg's New
York headquarters to get the latest news from the Middle
East and to have him reflect on his ten you're
at the State Department and share his outlook.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Let's get that conversation that we promised to you.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Joining us now with David Gera, the US Secretary of
State Anthony Blincoln.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
What it to you?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Thank you very much and welcome to our audience on
Bloomberg Radio and Bloomberg Television worldwide.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Mister Secretary, thank you very much for being here. Good
to be with you.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Last week I had a similar conversation with another member
of President Biden's cabinet, Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen. Part of
it was live on television, but we kept the conversation
going when the camera's cut away. This is the big
take from Bloomberg News. I'm David Gerra, and today on
(01:37):
the show, the seventy first Secretary of State Anthony Blincoln
on what's ahead in the Middle East and Ukraine and
how he's preparing the State Department for new leadership. Let's
start with Syria, and you've described this moment as one
of both promise and peril.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
You have what seems like a de facto government that
is a designated terrorist group, and you've said that the
US has been in contact with HDS. What specifically have
they said, I know there are other groups operating in
the country as well. What have they said about how
they might govern?
Speaker 3 (02:09):
What we've heard them say is positive. The question is
what are they actually going to do. We brought together
with Jordan, countries from around the region last week and
we came together to set expectations. What is the international community,
what are the neighbors looking for as this transition takes
place in Syria? And we all agreed we want to
see something that's inclusive, that's non sectarian, that respects minorities, women,
(02:31):
that deals with any chemical weapons that may be remaining
in Syria, that doesn't aly with ISIS or any of
the terrorist groups through are there. And the reason that's
so important is we want to make it clear to
HTS and all of the emerging authorities that the recognition
that they seek, the support that they seek a need
from the international community. Well, there's certain expectations that come
along with that. What everyone is focused on is what's
(02:51):
actually happening on the ground.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
What are they doing.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Are they working to build a transition in Syria that
brings everyone in. If they do that, and if they
meet some of these other tests that the international community
is looking for them to meet, then I think you
can see something very positive.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I look at this country that has a lot of
sanctions that are residual a lot of sanctions have been
in place for decades on Syria. Senator Chris Murphy of
Connecticut has called for a temporary suspension of sanctions. Is
that something that you would be amenable to and would
that be effective in helping you have more engagement with
what may be this new government.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
So we're looking at all the authorities we have. We're
looking at all of the sanctions, not only our own.
The United Nations has sanctions on HTS.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
It's leader.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
And I think what we need to see is actual
concrete steps building an inclusive, non sectarian government, a transition
eventually getting to an election. As we see these steps taken,
then I think we'll be able to respond, others will
be able to respond.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
There's been a lot of speculation that a ceasefire deal
could come together. When President Biden spoke about the deal
between Israel and has Belat, he was asked at the end,
do you think you can get a ceasefire deal by
the end of your tenure? So he's hoping and praying.
Is there anything that's happened that gives more grounds for
hope than prayer going forward?
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Here there is, and the reality is we should logically
be able to get this. And I say that with
all the caution that comes with that statement, because we've
been very close before, and we've had these Lucy in
the football moments where you're just ready to kick the
football and Lucy pulls it away. But what's changed is this,
Hamas knows that the cavalry is not coming to the rescue.
(04:22):
For months and months, it hoped it would get a
wider war with Hezbollah, with Iran, with Iranian aligned groups
coming in and creating more problems from Israel on more
fronts and helping Hamas endure.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
We now know that's not happening.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
They know it's not happening because of the very important
work that was done with us and with others dealing
with the unprecedented Iranian attacks on Israel, dealing with Hezbollah.
So I think that's concentrated minds among Hamas on the need.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
To complete the steal.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Having said that, it's always incredibly fraud and it's very
hard to get decisions made, it's hard to communicate, and
for all of those reasons, even as close as it is,
it can still move in.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
The other direction.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
We've all been fanning out, working with all of the
different partners who can make a difference and who may
have some leverage with communications with Hamas, whether it's Cutter,
whether it's Egypt, whether it's Turkey, where I was just
last week. The fundamental question right now is is Hamas
finally prepared to say yes? And if it does, we
(05:21):
get the hostages back, we get a ceasefire, we get
an immediate dramatic improvement in the lives of Palestinian children,
women and men who've been caught in this horrible crossfire
since October seventh of Hamas is making if they really
purport to care about the Palestinian people, they will say
yes and do it.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Now.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Let me ask you about that horrible crossfire, and it's
something that you've written about in a recent essay for
Foreign Affair, is the fact that millions have been displaced,
tens of thousands have been killed, Gaza has been kind
of reduced to rubble.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
You've made twelve trips to the region.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
How much regret do you have that kind of sustained
level of humanitarian aid hasn't made it into Gaza over
the course of this conflict.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
You know, from day one, we've tried to do several
things going back to October seventh. First to stand resolute
with Israel, to try to make sure that October seventh
would never happen again. Second to prevent this war from
going wider, because if that happened, if other fronts opened up,
whether it was with Iran, whether it was with Hezbolah,
these other groups, more death, more destruction, and it would
(06:18):
probably prolong what was going on in Gaza. And three
to do whatever we could to make sure that people
in Gaza were getting the assistance they need, We're getting
the protections they need, and we have been on this
virtually every single day, and we've seen moments when more
assistance was getting through. Then we've seen moments where where
it's ebbed and flowed. But this has a dramatic effect
on the lives and livelihoods of people in Gaza. The
(06:41):
last week or ten days there has been a noticeable improvement,
but we've seen that before and then we've seen it
fall off. The best way to finally deal with the
needs of the people would be down in the conflict,
would be to get the ceasefire, to get the hostages home.
That's the best play because you have an environment that
is unique, you have a population that's trapped in Gase.
It doesn't have any where to go. In most other conflicts,
(07:02):
people they can become refugees. That's not a good thing,
but it's better than being caught in the middle of
a hot war. And also you have an enemy in
the case of Hamas that's fully enmeshed with the civilian
population living in and under buildings, apartment buildings, schools, mosques, hospitals.
That doesn't obviate at all the responsibility that Israel has
(07:22):
to try to ensure that assistance gets to people who
need it and that people are protected as best possible.
And look, we've been working very hard to make sure
that as best we can we actually start to implement
plans for a better future for the region, or if
we don't have time to fully do that, to be
able to hand them off, not just getting the hostage
and cease fire deal, but having a clear plan for
(07:43):
what follows, a day after plan for Gaza, so that
there's no vacuum that Hamas can refill, that Israel can
pull out, and you can have Gaza stand up forwards people, administration, security, reconstruction.
We have done an extraordinary amount of work carrying through
what President Trump started with the Abraham Accords to get
normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia, which would be the
(08:04):
biggest game changer in the region. All of that is
ready to be handed over to the new administration and
hopefully they'll carry the ball forward.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
You mentioned that normalization deal.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
It with something this administration invested a lot in before
October seventh. Clear that the conversations has been going on.
There has been reporting that we're close to a breakthrough.
There can you shed any lightns ser of where those
conversations stand today.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
So one of the things I look back on is
on October tenth, a year ago, I was supposed to
go to Saudi Arabia and to Israel to work on
the Palestinian component of this normalization deal. And of course
that trip didn't happen because of October seven. But even
with Gaza, we've continued these conversations. We've continued this work,
and in terms of the agreements that are needed between
the United States and Saudi Arabia, they're pretty much ready
(08:44):
to go, and that would then trigger the normalization between
Israel and Saudi Arabia. But two things are required to
actually get that done. One is an end to the
conflict in Gaza. And two is having a credible pathway
toward a Palestinian state. As I said, all of the
work's been done, and hopefully we'll get to that end
of conflict in Gaza. They'll have to engage the conversation
on answering the Palestinian question, but the work is there,
(09:06):
and if that happens, this transforms the region. You have
Israel that's integrated in the region. There's a common security
architecture to deal with Iran. We saw that something we
put together embryonically. When Iran attacked Israel in an unprecedented
way direct attack, we not only for the first time,
participated in Israel's active defense, we brought other countries, including
countries in the region, into that defense. So you can
(09:28):
see what's possible in the future. But it requires an
end of the conflict in Gaza, and it requires moving
forward on the Palestinians coming up.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
As President Elect Trump readies for his return to the
White House, he and his closest aids are already meeting
with world leaders to discuss policy. How the Secretary of
State is navigating that After the break on Wednesday, Secretary
(09:58):
of State Anthony Blinkoln's down with Senator Marco Rubio, who
is President elect Trump's pick to succeed b.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Lincoln.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I asked the secretary how he's navigating. What is a
unique transition You've said of this new administration, you want
it passed the baton to them so they can get
off and running. Forgive me, but it does seem like
they are off and running. You had President Electrump meeting
in France with President Zelensky, President Macron, He's met with
Prime Minister Trudeau in Florida. His destiny to be the
special onboard the Middle East has been in the region
(10:25):
as well. Does that complicate the work that you are doing.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Look, there's one president at the time, one administration at
a time, but we're in very close contact with the
incoming administration.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
I spent a couple of tiles Field novel though, and
mean we used to talk about the logan action. It
does feel like these are different circumstances.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Look, I think there are a few things.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
I think there are a few things going on. First,
as they said, we've been in very close contact with
the incoming administration. I've spent a lot of time with
Senator Rubio, and Jake Salton, the National Security Advisor, with
Mike Waltz, his successor. We've had very good not only conversations,
but we're trying to make sure that we're as coordinated
as possible so that they know what we're looking at
doing in the remaining time that we have. I want
to be able to hand off to the incoming administration
(11:03):
the best possible hand to play in all of these areas,
in all of these challenges. Because the world doesn't stop
just because we're in a political transition. It's also normal
that countries around the world want to hear from the
incoming administration. They want to know what they can expect
so they can get ready for that. As long as
we're communicating closely, which we are, and as long as
we're working to again try to make this handoff as
(11:25):
effective as possible so that they can get moving on
the run because there's really no time to wait, then
I think that's a good thing.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Two more questions, the first of which is about Ukraine
at this stage, what you think Vladimir Putin is fighting for.
Is it to keep the land that he's taken, Is
it with the hope that he could get more land?
Or it's about something else entirely Is it about Ukraine's
sovereignty its relationship with the West, And if it's the latter,
how does that complicate potential piece talks when indeed they happen.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Look, Putin's had an imperial project for a long time,
and of course, first it started really close to home
with Chechnia many years ago, Georgia in eight Ukraine, the
first go round twenty fourteen, Ukraine, the second go around
twenty twenty two, and in his mind is the recreation
of a greater Russia. And you don't have to believe me,
just read what he said. He's been very clear about it.
(12:13):
He's failed in Ukraine. That proposition that he could erase
Ukraine from the map subsume it into Russia has failed.
And that's a result of the incredible courage of the
Ukrainian people. But it's also a result of the dozens
of countries that we rallied in defense of Ukraine to
make sure that they could repel this Russian aggression, prevent
the takeover if Kiev pushed the Russians back. And now
you have a front line that moves a little bit,
(12:35):
but probably won't move that much from where it is.
It would be good, I think if we could get
to ceasefire, if that's where the Ukrainians want to go.
But it has to be one that is just and durable,
And for it to be durable, you've got to have
some assurances built in that Russia can't simply rest refit
and then reattack. The pressure that we've exerted with sanctions,
(12:57):
with export controls is building and building. It's a heavier
and heavier weight on Russia. Everything that they try to
do takes longer, it's harder to do and costs more.
I think he wants to get out from under that yoke,
but I don't think he's going to give up on
his imperial ambitions. And so you have to make sure
that whatever results, if President Trump is able to bring
this to a landing of some kind, that it's one
(13:18):
that will endure, and that means necessary assurances that Ukraine
has what it takes to deter future Russian aggression.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Lastly, you are such a spokesman and evangelist for multilateralism.
We talk a lot about the importance of alliances, and
we're at this prespice where the incoming administration seems to
give that less difference than you. How confident are you
in the endurance of alliances? Be they sort of the
big multilateral ones, G seven, G twenty, smaller groups that
you've sort of fostered and grown over the course, if
you're a tenure, are they well buffeted enough that you
(13:48):
think they'll continue no matter what.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Look, I believe as long as they continue to demonstrate
their value to the United States, they will endure, and
I'm convinced that they will.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Look, there are two things that.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
We know, or at least that I believe, and that
we've tried to put in practice. One is, there's no
substitute for US engagement in US leadership around the world,
because if we're not doing it, chances are someone else is,
and probably not in a way that reflects our own interests,
our own values, or maybe just as bad no one is,
And then you get a vacuum. It's filled by bad
things before it's filled with good things, and inevitably those
come back to bite us. But the flip side of
(14:18):
that coin is just as important. Pretty much everything that
we're trying to do around the world that benefits the
American people, because that's our job is better achieved if
we're working with others, if we're cooperating, if we're coordinating,
even the United States simply can't get the job done alone.
And that's where our alliances and partnerships come in. You know,
It's interesting to me we've built over the last four
years much greater convergence among European countries, countries in the
(14:42):
Indo Pacific, and US on how to approach the challenges
posed by China, probably the most consequential relationship that we have,
and many of these countries have. We're now on the
same page. And the reason I know that that's working
is every time I meet with my Chinese counterpart long E,
he spends usually half an hour forty five minutes at
the top of the meeting complaining about everything we've done
(15:03):
to align these countries. And it's not about containing China
or holding China down. It's about dealing with the real
problems that we have with China and that are affecting
the lives of our people. We're much more effective in
changing the policies that a country like China pursues, or
any other country with whom we have a challenging relationship.
I think that value proposition is real and it's clear.
And last thing, you look at what we've been able
(15:24):
to do in Ukraine. Yes, we've devoted a lot of
resources to that, about one hundred billion dollars, although most
of that was spent in the United States to build
the necessary weapons for Ukraine, good American jobs. As a result,
we've done hundred million dollars. Our allies and partners one
hundred and fifty billion dollars.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
We've had real burden sharing.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
They've picked up the load, and I think as we
go forward, we've now have allies and partners doing more
than they've ever done before. As long as other countries
are demonstrating that they're picking up their share, I think
these alliances and partnerships will endure. It's our comparative advantage.
We're the only country in the world that has these
alliances and partnerships that are voluntary, that are based on
(16:04):
shared interests, shared values.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
So for me, it's.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Really been one of the secrets to our success around
the world, and I think incoming administration hopefully we'll see
that and continue that.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Thank you again, nice to speak with you, great to
do with you.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
This is the big take from Bloomberg News. I'm David
Gura with a quick reminder. Tomorrow we'll release the second
episode in our series, The Human Egg Trade, which examines
the global fertility industry. Subscribe to The Big Take to
get new episodes of our show and of this special
series as soon as they're out. Today's episode is produced
by Alex Tie. It was edited by Nick Wadams and
(16:47):
our senior producer Naomi Shavin. It was fact checked by
Adrian A. Tapia and mixed and sound designed by Alex Sagura.
Our senior editor is Elizabeth Ponso. Our executive producer is
Nicole Beemster Boor Sage is Bloomberg's head of podcasts. If
you liked this episode, make sure to subscribe and review
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