March 20, 2025 • 46 mins
Families and friends looking for answers about what happened to their loved ones who vanished. A volunteer group uncovers a site that looks like a concentration camp out of WW2, but it is in 2025 Mexico! Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack take an up close look at what was found, including three underground ovens used for cremating bodies. Joe explains the forensics in trying to identify some of the souls whose remains, are now cremains.
Transcript Highlights
00:00.03 Introduction
02:38.66 Disposal of human beings like WW2 Concentration camps
06:53.11 Since 1962, 120,000 people have gone missing in Mexico
11:09.42 Amongst the horror, children's toys are found
16:44.94 Volunteers using methods that are not very high tech
21:33.74 Looking for markers in the ground
26:36.78 Look for bodies by poking the ground
31:12.08 Piles of shoes at the Holocaust museum
35:03.34 Conclusion
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Quody Bus with Joseph Scott More. When you're a death investigator,
particularly a medical legal death investigator, you wind up going
to places that other people don't have the opportunity to
go to. You see things that you know the common
folk out there really don't get an appreciation for it.
(00:25):
And let me give you an example. I've had a
number of cases over the course of my career that
have involved industrial sites. I've gone to a variety of
different factories over the course of my career because of accidents.
Most of the time. Every now and then you'll get
(00:45):
a homicide, perhaps at you know, some big plant somewhere.
But most of the time when I go to these places,
it's always some big bit of industry. I mean, you name,
I've been there. You know coal plants, you know auto plants,
(01:09):
textile mills, And you begin to think about things in
when you get in there, because it's so massive. You
might drive by it going down the street and you
never really realize how vast the interior of one of
these factories is, and that it's always described. It's always
(01:32):
described in terms of in industry. You know, an industrial complex.
Imagine if you will, though, imagine if you will if
death and disposal of human remains were described in terms
(01:59):
of almost industrial sized operation. Today on Bodybacks, we're going
to chat a bit about a discovery in our neighbors
country to the south, Mexico that is so horrific that
(02:21):
it brings back memories over eighty years ago of places
that were found in Europe that disposed of humans. The
horror is unbelievable. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.
(02:46):
You know, Dave, think about it is when you look
at a case or cases that we're going to be
talking about today. I wish we had names. I really do,
because unfortunately we don't. This is one of those odd
ball cases where we don't necessarily have a specific name
(03:07):
of anyone at to this point, this investigation is still ongoing.
But you know, because you and I both like to
honor the dead. You know, if we, if if anybody
says anything about this show, one of the things that
we'd like to do is is pay respect to the dead,
because sometimes they have no respect paid to them at all.
(03:28):
Maybe a word from us is one thing, but in
this case, we we don't really have that. And the
volume that we're talking about here is mind blowing when I,
you know, pitch this case to you as part of,
you know, part of what we're doing our catalog here
at Bodybags. I don't know if you were shocked by
(03:50):
the scale of it. I was. I was, and I'm
pretty jaded, dude.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Joe, when it comes right down to it, I am
shocked by what we're seeing, But more than anything else,
I'm shocked by the lack of reaction. And it's interesting
in that during World War Two, at the end of
the war, when the Allied troops were liberating some of
(04:18):
the camps, the soldiers were so shocked by what they
were seeing. It was just devastating. And I remember stories
of how the people who lived in a nearby town
of one of the I don't know if it was
booke and malled or I don't know which concentration camp
it was, but it had been an operation for some time,
(04:41):
and the townspeople acted like they didn't know anything was
going on, and so the army actually marched them through
to make them look at what was happening in their
own backyard. That they ignored that these were human beings
who had been turned into ash. And reading stories of
that well, you would think, you know where, seventy years
(05:02):
removed from that, and yet here we sit with the
same thing happening. But now this death on an industrial
scale is being done by cartels, drug cartels just south
of our border. I don't know why there is not
more of a humanitarian cry. You know, what are we
doing here? Why are this one particular camp? It is
(05:23):
just one joe. It is just one and it was
found or actually publicly found by a group that calls
themselves a volunteer group led by a woman named Indira Navarro.
It's called the Jalisco Search Warriors. That's what they call themselves,
the Jalisco Search Warriors, and their goal is to find
(05:46):
the missing, to find out what happened to people who
applied for a job somewhere and never came home, which
is what happened in many cases. And it's been going
on for a long time. Historically speaking, people going missing
in Mexico has only been the data has only been
kept since like nineteen sixty two, and in that time,
(06:08):
one hundred and twenty thousand people in Mexico have gone missing.
One hundred and twenty thousand people missing. I don't know
how many we have in the US since nineteen sixty two.
But I would think one hundred and twenty thousand people
going missing is a big number and you might have
to have an answer and finding this camp. They found
(06:30):
out that, well, the local police did find the camp.
They found it back several months ago in September, where
they arrested ten people. They released two people who were
there at being held against their will, and they found
a body wrapped in plastic. But they didn't go any
further apparently until the Jalisco search warriors showed up, and
(06:51):
then you know, we know what's going on. It's been
followed by the New York Times in the Washington Post,
and that's where when you sent me this information, I
started thinking, surely this has to be an overstatement of
what they've found, and it's actually an underplay.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah, And I got to tell you, I don't know
that they have found well, there's no way you can't.
If people think, let's go back to the example of
the concentration camps in Europe. If people think that they
found everything over there, you're fooling yourself because they haven't.
They you know, there are people that are gone that
(07:29):
no one will ever know about you know, what actually
became of them, but it was directly related to an
individual camp. I submit to you the same thing as
in practice here where you only have and look, as
scientists forensics, we only have what we have before us.
We can't really speculate, particularly if we're going to go
(07:51):
to court about what could have been. However, when you
I think that at the root of it, you know,
when you begin to think about the uh, you least
go province there that area. And by the way, there
is actually a cartel there named the New Generation. At
(08:11):
least go Cartel. I find it interesting that the families
adopted that name. Uh. It takes at guts. I mean,
you and I can talk. You and I can talk
big and bold as much as we want to hear.
You know, safely ensconced in America. However, you know you're
(08:32):
down there and it's a wild West, brother, and you
know that you're going to go out as family member
and certain you know, you just get to the point,
I think, and particularly if you get a collective of families,
you know, what do we have in common? Well, our
loved ones are missing, and Dave, we're not. And this
is really one of the big sad things about it.
(08:52):
We'll get into this a little bit later, but we're
not talking about adult military age males here, that's in
the grouping. We've got small children whose remains have been found.
So when you go from and you know, I knew
(09:14):
doctor Clyde Snow, who if for any of our friends
out there that are not familiar with Clyde Snows, he's
a guy that coined the phrase that I'm fond of.
I teach a section on forensic anthropology. He coined the
phrase called osteobiography, which you're telling the story of someone
(09:35):
through their skeletal remains. It sounds rather simplistic, but back
back when he coined that phrase, it was rather revolutionary.
And to that point, doctor Snow went to Central America
back in the seventies in the eighties and did excavation
on mass mass graves down there that were politically you know,
(09:57):
some of this political stuff that was going on down there,
But most of the people that they would recover out
of those out of those graves were military age males.
You know, and you when you take up the scalp
remains out of the ground, there are certain metrics that
you measure these remains by where you know, the forensic
(10:18):
pathologists can ballpark first off, what sex is and what
the age is. But Dave, that's we're talking about something
now where you begin to see families, young women, children,
There were children's toys found about. You know that when
(10:43):
you start to talk about and that's why the UN
sponsors a lot of these things, like doctors without borders,
forensic anthropologists a part of that. Many times they'll go
over and they'll do these masks, these mass grave recoveries.
The word, the word genocide begins to slip into the
conversation because it's one thing if you're fighting an enemy,
(11:08):
say military age males, all right, But when you're going
into homes and perhaps kidnapping and attempting to eradicate an
entire family, it's much more. If anything can be more chilling,
it certainly is. It begins to approach that. And all
(11:29):
of these remains, such as they are, are you know,
kind of bonded together there. And so kudos to these
family members that went out there and began to search
the grounds of a location. Like you had mentioned that
the police had already been today.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Right, they just didn't look further. But now are we
really talking about being able to identify human beings from
the ash from the what's left over from the remains
the creamines rather, or are we really going to have
to make certain assumptions based on clothing shoes left behind,
the sizes, the types we do know. We've got this
(12:08):
picture that has gone from this and it shows pictures
of clothing, but shoes in particular. You get children's sizes
of shoes, women's shoes. We're not just talking about men,
as you mentioned, that were somehow ran a foul of
the cartel. We're talking about people who have been wiped
out for whatever reason. And I don't pretend to know
(12:32):
what goes into the thought process of a cartel when
they're taking over an area. We know that based on
what we have seen in the past, they rule. You know,
it's a life or death situation every day, and children
are included in this. If you do not bend to
their will, if you don't do what they tell you
to do, they kill you, mainly because they don't want
(12:54):
you ratting on them. You know, somebody who does not
participate is the enemy. So is that what we're really
looking at here? That these people were recruited to become
part of the cartel in becoming foot soldiers or whatever
they wanted, and they were given the opportunity to join
or not. And if they decided, I'm not going to
be a part of this, then they practiced their torture
(13:16):
techniques and ways to murder on the people who wouldn't
go along. Is that what we're dealing with. I'm curious
because that's what it looks like.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
No, I don't think it's people that want simply, it's
not just a matter of using people that are eradicating
people that are not going along. I think that death
death is utilized as a message. You know, there are
a number of accounts it was actually portrayed. For those
(13:49):
that have actually seen the movie Cecario, the very first one.
There's been two. I think they might do a third.
But the Ccario, there's when they go to war. As
in the first first part of that movie, you see
people corpses hung off of bridges and strung up by
(14:10):
the neck, dead in various stages of decay because people
are afraid to cut them down. They're sending a message
with that and listen, those people are not that you see.
And I think one of the characters in the movie
actually alludes to this is and this has been known
for some time. As part of the methodology, you don't
necessarily have to be a direct threat to the cartel.
(14:33):
Your mortal remains, Dave, and let that sink in. Your
mortal remains are used as a big, flashing, decaying neon
sign to those that are outside to beware or you
might wind up in the same condition they've I want
(15:11):
to get back to the families in their search for
these remains. You had pointed something out to me in
your production notes that really stuck with me, because I
don't think that I've ever heard of this methodology as
a forensic scientist that has spent a lot of time
(15:33):
in the field looking for human remains. Is it true
from what you're reading that this Hillsco family group went
out with metal rods searching beneath the earth looking for you?
And how are they what methodology are they applying here
(15:55):
in order to facilitate this This is it's mind blowing.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Well, you know, they don't have have ground penetrating radar
and things like that that we expect here when we're
dealing with an investigation. And as we mentioned, we are
dealing with volunteers, and you, I'm so glad you pointed
out that they even name themselves, that these volunteers are
truly warriors, they know what they're faced with, and yet
(16:22):
they use the name Jalisco Search Warriors. I know, I
said Julli'sco earlier, Sorry, Jalisco Search Warriors, because it's a
knockoff of the Jalisco New Generation cartel. And they're saying,
this is who we are, We're going to do something,
and knowing what they are faced with day in and
day out, which is certain death at some point, and
(16:43):
yet they go into this place that the police were
in not that long ago, and they start discovering things
that the police failed to look into, and they use
a poker of some sort. And I made a note
of it because I was thinking, are they when we
(17:06):
look at how one investigates something of this nature? How
do you search layer by layer to know what you're
actually looking for? We see archaeologists in movies and on TV,
and how they have You know, they got string going
everywhere in pegs, and they're march do all out and
they're using brushes and their fingers and you know they're
(17:27):
going all out that's not what we have here. We've
got a group of volunteers who are trying to find
loved ones that they are presumer dead, and they find
these bones, and so they're starting to dig around and
they use a metal poker to actually stick in the
ground and they pull it out and they smell it, Yeah,
to figure out what it is that is actually beneath
(17:49):
their feet. Is there a certain smell of death that
they are trying to smell that actually could be recovered
in such a way.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Yeah, you're up right, And it all depends on and
what you're looking for when you're doing a body recovery.
And in this case, you know, they don't know what
they're what they're doing with because you know, if you
had if you had ground penetrating radar out there and
you were running over the surface, which, by the way,
(18:19):
for those that have never seen ground penetrating radar, they
used to look a lot like an old push mower.
But they're a bit more compact now and they rely
relay data back to a central server, and that data
that's being bounced back up to the machine, it's being
(18:41):
translated and you can pick up on different formations beneath
the surface, but just to begin with, and it's something
that we look like look for in modern body recovery
because you have to be very careful here because I
know most people think about archaeology and Anna Jones, when
(19:02):
you're you're thinking about ancient archaeology, the layering that goes
on is so deep, dependent upon obviously the strata will
be so deep, dependent upon how many years back you're going,
and so it'll be really packed down, the soil will
be Okay, So like you and I, we live in
(19:26):
an area that was heavily populated by the name that
the Whites gave them, which was the Creek Indians. Okay.
As a matter of fact, one of our local shopping centers,
and you might be familiar with the story, they built
a shopping center here and there was a huge mound
behind it and they just assumed that it was a hill,
(19:47):
and they cut into that hill and they took field
dirt out of it. Well, it turned out that it
was actually an Indian mound. It's one of the great
shames around here, having a considerable amount of Native American
ancestry in my family tree. It, you know, it was
a real shame that they didn't do their due diligence
(20:09):
in trying to understand that. But you know, when you
see that, it just looks like a hill, okay, And
that's the presumption that they went under when we're talking
about a fresh burial like this, and this is fresh
when we look at the broad time. You know, when
you compare it to ancient we're not talking about the
Mayans or the Aztecs or anything like that down in
(20:30):
meso America. We're talking about people that have died just
in the last few years. So one of the things
that even a neophyte that's going out to search for remains,
you're looking for what's referred to as turned to earth.
So on the surface of it, when we're surveying an area,
(20:51):
the first thing we're going to look for is disruption
of vegetation. That's one of the markers that you look
for when you go out to an area, and it
can be something very benign, like, for instance, if you've
got and I know nothing about the flora in this
in the Hollisco state there in Mexico. However, let's just
(21:14):
say they've got some kind of particular scrub brush that's
low growth and it's populating the entire area. Well, what's
really fascinating. You can do this yourself. If you go
out to an area and you've got a common nuisance
weed that's growing it very well, if you see a
big area that's absent of that weed that is naturally occurring,
(21:40):
there's an assumption that you can make saying, well, something
has occurred in this specific area that that vegetation no
longer grows here or hasn't grown here in some time. Okay,
So as a starting point, one of the things that
you would look for is disruption of vegetation, and then
you would look for uneven soil where it looks like
somebody has put shovel to dirt or heavy equipment to
(22:03):
dirt and they've literally turned the soil. Because once you
unpack soil, Dave, this is what gets me about people
that bury bodies. Once you turn that soil, it is
impossible to get that soil to get back to its
natural configuration. That took hundreds, maybe thousands of years. No
(22:26):
one has put a tool to it, and in all
of that time, and suddenly you think that you're going
to mask that area by taking a shovel out of
the shed and you're going to dig a hole and
you know we're going to see it. You know, well
it'll stand out and it doesn't matter really. I submit
to you, Dave, that you could go out there with
(22:46):
a group of guys with you know those tampers that
they use that are kind of square, you see them
on work sites. You get a whole team of guys
out there and kind of tamp in the soil around there,
it's still not going to match up visually to what
the rest of the naturally occurring area is. So, you know,
(23:09):
for these families that are going out there and they
don't have access to this kind of technology like we
have here or in other locations, you gotta do what
you got to do, and to take a metal rod
and to begin to stick it into the soil and
draw it out. First off, you're going to test the depth.
How far down can you get that metal rod? You know,
(23:31):
are you going to strike kind of a solid, solid
structure down below, because you're if you've got decaying human
remains that are below the surface, you're not really going
to be able to to say, okay, I just pass.
Their human remains really not going to feel it. Most
(23:52):
of the time, but when you draw it out, there
will be dependent upon how fresh dead people are. There
will be a foul to this that you will certainly
appreciate very very quickly. And it's not going to smell
necessarily like if you took the rod and placed it
into the ground, you happen you have happened upon methane
or something like that. It's not going to have have that.
(24:14):
It's not going to have a rotten egg smell to it.
It will in fact our sulf or rather, it will
have a very distinctive human decay smell to it, even
mixed with the dirt, commingled with the dirt. And so
that's what they're doing. And I can only imagine that
you've got people out there. I've imagined these people with
pieces of rebar, which is like you know what you
(24:36):
use to reinforce concrete with, and they're kind of walking
a breast and they're kind of sticking these things in
the ground. And they've got this organized to the point
where somebody and we do this still when we're surveying
an area, we will walk abreast at a what we
think is a dump sight or a burial site. There'll
be a team of us. We'll walk abreast and when
(24:58):
one person finds something, everybody halts. You don't progress beyond that,
and you mark it with a flag, and in a
rudimentary way. That might be what they're doing. This is
an old tom skill that they're employing. You know, before
the days, you know that we had ground penetrating radar.
Somebody has experience that's out there looking for the dead
and this isn't you know, this isn't their first rodeo either. Yeah.
(25:21):
I keep picking because there's a method to the to
the madness here.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
I'm picturing Yukon Cornelius, you know in Rudolph when he
took his pick and he'd throw it up and he
was stick in the ice and he'd take it and
smell it and lick it, you know, and it was
like that was his I'm kind of picturing these guys
the same way they're paid. And I'm so glad you
said Revar. I was trying to picture in my head
what type of metal, and that actually does fit because
(25:45):
if you just go out of your backyard and you
stick a piece of metal like that, like Revar, just
see what you can do in your grass. It's not
going down very deep. No, but if you go to
an area where you were digging and where you were
you know, planting something and you stick it in there,
it's going to go in several inches. So that's your
first indicator that you have soil, you've got an area.
(26:06):
Isn't there a way when we're searching for bodies and
not we but in stories you and I have covered
where law enforcement flies overhead and they can actually have
an ability to see areas with infrared that have been disturbed.
Where you do have ground that has changed. Because you
(26:26):
pointed out you got thousands of years where it's been
sitting there, nobody messing with it. Now all of a
sudden it's been turned up. It is going to be
different scientifically speaking.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yeah, and I'm glad you said that because we go
back to the Daybill case out in Idaho. How quickly
we she's in our trial right now. I think I
already forgot about that, but we you know, early on
when I saw that site, you know where they sat,
you know, I remember I was alive on the air
(26:55):
when I saw it, and I talked about how that's
a ring. I think I was on CNN when I
saw it the first time, and I said, and that's
a great disposal area, And it turned out that that's
where Kaylee's remains were. My understanding was was that they
were doing drone flyovers relative to that area to try
(27:17):
to map the area initially. Now I don't know if
that ever came to fruition, but that's one of the
things that the authorities had at least leaked out at
one point in time that they were trying to get
images to see where the soil has been disrupted in
that area. And it was but it was kind of plain.
You didn't need because you know, you look at Chad
day Bell's property and it's pasture land. You know, that
(27:40):
block of land. It's like a paddock what they call
a paddock where you keep horses and whatnots kind of
fenced in and all of that. You saw green grass growing.
But in that those areas, like I was referring to earlier,
where Kaylee was found and of course that little boy
was found, that was like immediately adjacent to that tree,
and that was like an old dried up retention pond
(28:03):
that soil had had been turned. You can also do
air sampling as well to get an idea of what's
decaine beneath the surface. Now you don't know if it's
you can't say with scientific certainty, which some people would
have you believe. Think back to Casey Anthony by the way.
(28:27):
They'll say you can specifically, you know, say that this
is a human decomposing down there. No, you can't, because
it might be any kind of animal. But at least
you're in a at least you're in the neighborhood, you know,
when you're conducting an investigation, so they can do air
sampling as well. But you know, these people are not
going to have that kind of technology. This was This
(28:49):
was sheer determination and elbow grease on the part of
these families. And that's that's what's so touching brutal about this.
They're missing all these family members. And you know, one
of the things that really tugged at me when I
(29:09):
saw it initially when this case came up. If you
didn't need any more emphasis here, because we're hearing stories
about cremation ovens, we're hearing stories about particulate bomb, we've
heard rumors of children and toys. But the one thing
that really stuck in my mind was an image that
(29:32):
I saw many years ago when I visited the Holocaust
Museum in DC. It affected me to the point where
I can't go back in there. And it was shoes,
collected shoes, piles of them. You can't take the measure
(29:53):
of it, but you can look at each pair and
know that they represent someone who was loved this Guarry Ranch,
(30:18):
I'm looking at an image of it right now. The
reason I'm looking at this image is that there is
a shot of a Mexican National guardsmen in full military
kit standing outside of the gate. He's standing there, and
(30:40):
when I say gate, I'm talking about a gate that
has got the name emblazoned on the front of it.
It's a steel gate, It's massive, and there are two
dancing horses on the outside of it. It was within
these walls, that's three three crematory ovens were discovered. And
(31:06):
you can't you cannot run fast enough to sell me
the story if they did not know what was going
on inside of those walls. Dave, And one of the
big things here is that people are terrified, even the authorities.
We've known that for a long time. What went on
on the other side of those walls is horrific. I
(31:28):
think my question is this still going on in other locations,
because this seems The reason I think that it could
potentially be is the fact that Dave, based upon what
we're hearing and seeing right now, they seem to have
this now to a science.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
You know, you get to the effort underground show. Yeah,
I mean that's not something you just come up with
all of a sudden. This is through trial and error,
just like the Nazis did during World War Two when
they were developing destruction of human beings on an end
austrial scale. They tried many different things. They started off
(32:05):
just shooting everybody, you know, they'd have their soldiers shoot them,
and they saw there was an emotional component to that
that actually was causing harm to their soldiers. So they
then decided carbon monoxide. They're actually pictures of these long
showers that were hooked up and you've got cars with tailpipes,
you know, extensions going into these buildings. That didn't get
(32:26):
work fast enough. I mean, they just kept developing it
until finally they're like, you know what, we're going to
poison them in the showers and just take the bodies
right over here. These ovens, these three crematory ovens, were
all underground, which means they had to have piping to
get the exhaust down. It's got to go somewhere, and
(32:46):
it's going to have a distinct I'm guessing a distinct odor.
You're not going to be burning bodies down to you know,
just FYI.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
So you know this.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
When you get cremains back from if it's a loved
one and they've been cremated. I remember the first time
seeing I thought it was powdery, like U see in
movies where people they spread ashes and they're really ashes.
They just kind of float off into the ether, and
that's not what you get. It's much different than that.
Oftentimes there's teeth and bone fragments and things like that
(33:19):
in the cremains, and that's what we're finding here. So
we've got these three ovens underground that they're using to
try to destroy evidence being human beings. And I'm wondering,
what can you get forensically out of the cremains, show
what's left behind. Is there a possibility of getting DNA, Well, heat.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Really compromises things. I think that that would be very difficult.
I think the best they're going to be able to
do is probably aging of the remains one of the
big keys that are going to be the teeth, the
teeth that you recover, and that's a real shame because
you you know, teeth are not bone. Just everybody understands
(34:07):
that teeth are socketed in bone, you know, in our
mandible and our maxilla, but they are not bone. They're
the composition is completely different, and they're more resilient. As
a matter of fact, I think I've talked about it
on bodybags, but if you were to you know, they
talk about extracting DNA from long bones or you know,
like the head of the femur, that sort of thing.
(34:28):
I talk about how if you were to think biologically
of a I don't know, a conveyance or storage for DNA,
bone would be a leather briefcase and teeth would be
a titanium briefcase. They're both serving the purpose of storing
(34:49):
DNA and you can collect them. But teeth are so resilient.
You know, when it comes, you know, you get into
the pulp and you can extract it from there. One
of the components with a crematory, which we don't have
evidence of right now, and I'm going to be very
curious to find this out Dave is In crematories, I've
(35:10):
seen two things. I've seen great big marble rollers that
are at the end of the conveyor belt that come
out of you know, that come out of the ovens,
and they run opposing so as the remains go down.
And this is really old timing here, I don't think
(35:31):
anybody uses anymore. They roll opposing these big rollers and
they're essentially bone crushers and they crush everything else that's
that remains and you know, it's collected in a bent.
Now they use an auger, which you know, if you've
ever seen an auger, which is kind of graduated, looks
(35:52):
like a gigantic screw that's used now to facilitate the
crushing of the bones here at Jacksonville State. As a
matter of fact, I've got a local funeral home that
I take my death investigation class too, and they have
a crematory there and it's really profound for the students
to walk in there and to see and everything has
(36:14):
dust on it that yeah, I mean, it's there's dust,
you know when you walk in and.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
It's not really dust, is it, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Well, yeah, it's it's there's a residue that is there
but that's that's part of you know, there's nothing. I
think people want to think that, you know, death is
so clean, and it's not. It's dirty business. It's very
dirty business. And you know, with our our cases that
(36:45):
we're talking about today, with this what what the media
has termed as a concentration camp, because it's not just
the disposal of the reins. They found evidence of torture
chambers there too, day where I think think part of
what you said was really accurate earlier. They're trying to
extricate information from somebody, you know, while else do you
(37:07):
to unless you're just a pure sadist and you get
off on torturing people, which I'm not saying that these
individuals may be. I have no idea, but when you
think about the purpose of torture, you want to extract
information from people, And there's evidence that this had been
(37:29):
ongoing in this area. And what information could a child have,
you know, unless the child is their torture is being
used as a way to elicit information from maybe an
adult that's you know, maybe a parent or something, which
again is very chilling. And all of these remains are
(37:50):
being found commingled, so one of the problems that you're
going to encounter if in fact all the remains have
been cremated, because some of them very well may not have.
And so you might have those that are that are
buried in certain locations. Going back to this probe that
they're using to go down into the earth, you might
(38:13):
have people that were intact when they were buried. And
that's going to give you a clue because you can
you know, everything is like a investigatively. It's like if
people will just envision in their mind an inverted funnel.
So as you get closer to the apex of it,
at the top of it, if you've got it, it looks
like a mountain peak. Your information is slowly beginning to
(38:34):
narrow it down. And if you you know, if you
have an intact body where you can get sex, age, race,
those elements, you might have shot at getting them identified,
and you know that they're not part of the cremains.
And if there are other people in that intact body,
if there are members of their family that are still missing,
(38:59):
than one of the assumptions you can make investigatively is
they may have been cremated and you might not find
them there on the compound or elsewhere, you know where
they've been discarded, so you know, at the end of
the day, though, when you have these cremated remains that
are literally comingled, you're gonna have bone chips that are
(39:20):
thrown together. Well, you can pretty easily separate adolescent pre
adolescent skeletal remains from adult remains. It's going to be
really hard though, to narrow down age ranges. You know,
if you've only got certain elements, like if you've got,
for instance, and you know when we grow, for instance,
(39:43):
we have these epipacile plates that you know, where you
get the growing pains and that sort of thing where
it's not completely fused yet. That's one of the things
that we look for in children to see if their
bones are completely fused. If they've gone beyond that, then
we can hang a number on that. But that doesn't
necessarily mean that we can get them identified beyond putting
(40:05):
them specifically into an age group. There's no guarantee that
you can say, well, this person is this particular age,
and you can't certainly distill it down into anything more
fine than that to say it is this person.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
You can't even do that with cremains. You got cremains.
You can't do any of that.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
No, you know, the only thing that I was really
thinking about here, Dave, is that the thing about the teeth,
teeth are a great identifier. They're a grand identifier if
you do have a DNA database and you can harvest
out of the pulp if you can, and again that's
going to be a long shot because even the teeth
are exposed to a tremendous heat. A regular crematory, you know,
(40:47):
will we'll blast away fifteen hundred and sixteen hundred and
seventeen hundred degrees and depend upon size of the individual,
it takes some time to render them down. And this
isn't you know, we talked about this being an industrial scale.
So if they're and by the way, they have no
idea as to how many bodies there actually are. That's
(41:08):
what's so terrifying about this. You know, these investigators, if
they are so inclined, need to get their pencil and
paper out, go to those those ovens and write down
any serial numbers that are on there, When were they constructed,
when where they purchased? That might give you an indication
(41:28):
as to when all of it started, unless unless they
were handmade which you know is certainly a possibility. People
do fabulous you know, metal work and that sort of thing.
Is that something and where they automated to the point
where you had a movable belt in there, you know,
where it's drawing the remains, you know, through the oven
(41:49):
after they've been rendered down at that point in time.
There's so many things that they could do though investigatively,
to try to time frame this thing out. If you've
got people, if you've got people that have facilitated and
built this thing underground, Dave, that takes a special skill set.
(42:11):
You're not just going to go out on the street
and say, hey, can you dig a big hole from me?
If I'm going to build, you know, a multi flu
crematory subterranean, can you help me with them? You're looking
for somebody that would have that capability from ranging from
everything to plumbing to heating to metal work. It's it's
(42:38):
it's high end labor. You know.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
When you look at this, Joe and I'm I hate
Dann to rept you here, but it just occouraged me.
One of the things that we learned from the group
the Warrior, the Halisco Search Warriors, is that the gang
the drug cartel. The gang would actually use phony employment
advertisements to lure men to a Guadalajara bus station. The
(43:03):
gang members would meet them there with the idea they're
going to get a job and take them to one
of the extermination camps. I say camps because I cannot
I can't imagine this being the only one, just the
only one they found so far that they're willing to
talk about. But if they were looking at doing something
and you just mentioned metalwork, plumbing, things like that, what
(43:24):
if they were advertising for that to lure these people in,
they have them do the job at gunpoint or whatever
and make them do that, and then they're the first
victims to go through the new crematorium that's been subterranean,
that has been created underground. Just a thought, because that
is no and we do.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
No brand idea, because now you don't have the individuals
that initiated the construction of it to go out and
blab about it. You kill them and you liquidate them essentially,
and then if you need other maintenance done, then that's
just something that's going to be on you and your
posse that will get the knocked out, you know, over time,
(44:02):
and they would have to have test subjects for it,
you know, to see if it actually worked, which is
horrific in and of itself. The other thing that we're
kind of missing here is how are these how are
these folks being taken out? You know, if you go
back again to our example of the uh Nazi concentration camps, uh,
(44:27):
those things were done on mass scale. Well, I don't
think that we're approaching those numbers obviously, but you know,
you're in the tens of people here, maybe the hundreds
of people. You begin to think, well, you know, bullets
are cheap, right, and if it's a single shot to
(44:48):
the back of the head, that doesn't really you know,
cost a lot in order to you know, meeting your
bottom line. Are they killing them in other ways? Is
do they tour them to death? For instance? You know
these fatalities you know, occurring while they're in some kind
of dungeon that's been you know, where they're tied to
(45:09):
the wall and you've got evidence of blood letting that
has been going on in this environment. You know, this
this case, these cases in particular, they are as you
said from the top day, these are evidence rich environments
(45:30):
bathed in forensic science or elements where forensic science can
be applied and you can figure these things out, everything
from forensic engineering to dentistry, to pathology to archaeology, anthropology.
I know I'm missing some, but here here's the rub,
(45:54):
as they say, the rub is, yeah, your samples exist.
There's science to processes samples. But do the governmental authorities
possess the will to do it right? I'm Joseph Scott
(46:16):
Morgan and this is Bodybacks
Quody Bus with Joseph Scott More. When you're a death investigator,
particularly a medical legal death investigator, you wind up going
to places that other people don't have the opportunity to
go to. You see things that you know the common
folk out there really don't get an appreciation for it.
(00:25):
And let me give you an example. I've had a
number of cases over the course of my career that
have involved industrial sites. I've gone to a variety of
different factories over the course of my career because of accidents.
Most of the time. Every now and then you'll get
(00:45):
a homicide, perhaps at you know, some big plant somewhere.
But most of the time when I go to these places,
it's always some big bit of industry. I mean, you name,
I've been there. You know coal plants, you know auto plants,
(01:09):
textile mills, And you begin to think about things in
when you get in there, because it's so massive. You
might drive by it going down the street and you
never really realize how vast the interior of one of
these factories is, and that it's always described. It's always
(01:32):
described in terms of in industry. You know, an industrial complex.
Imagine if you will, though, imagine if you will if
death and disposal of human remains were described in terms
(01:59):
of almost industrial sized operation. Today on Bodybacks, we're going
to chat a bit about a discovery in our neighbors
country to the south, Mexico that is so horrific that
(02:21):
it brings back memories over eighty years ago of places
that were found in Europe that disposed of humans. The
horror is unbelievable. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.
(02:46):
You know, Dave, think about it is when you look
at a case or cases that we're going to be
talking about today. I wish we had names. I really do,
because unfortunately we don't. This is one of those odd
ball cases where we don't necessarily have a specific name
(03:07):
of anyone at to this point, this investigation is still ongoing.
But you know, because you and I both like to
honor the dead. You know, if we, if if anybody
says anything about this show, one of the things that
we'd like to do is is pay respect to the dead,
because sometimes they have no respect paid to them at all.
(03:28):
Maybe a word from us is one thing, but in
this case, we we don't really have that. And the
volume that we're talking about here is mind blowing when I,
you know, pitch this case to you as part of,
you know, part of what we're doing our catalog here
at Bodybags. I don't know if you were shocked by
(03:50):
the scale of it. I was. I was, and I'm
pretty jaded, dude.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Joe, when it comes right down to it, I am
shocked by what we're seeing, But more than anything else,
I'm shocked by the lack of reaction. And it's interesting
in that during World War Two, at the end of
the war, when the Allied troops were liberating some of
(04:18):
the camps, the soldiers were so shocked by what they
were seeing. It was just devastating. And I remember stories
of how the people who lived in a nearby town
of one of the I don't know if it was
booke and malled or I don't know which concentration camp
it was, but it had been an operation for some time,
(04:41):
and the townspeople acted like they didn't know anything was
going on, and so the army actually marched them through
to make them look at what was happening in their
own backyard. That they ignored that these were human beings
who had been turned into ash. And reading stories of
that well, you would think, you know where, seventy years
(05:02):
removed from that, and yet here we sit with the
same thing happening. But now this death on an industrial
scale is being done by cartels, drug cartels just south
of our border. I don't know why there is not
more of a humanitarian cry. You know, what are we
doing here? Why are this one particular camp? It is
(05:23):
just one joe. It is just one and it was
found or actually publicly found by a group that calls
themselves a volunteer group led by a woman named Indira Navarro.
It's called the Jalisco Search Warriors. That's what they call themselves,
the Jalisco Search Warriors, and their goal is to find
(05:46):
the missing, to find out what happened to people who
applied for a job somewhere and never came home, which
is what happened in many cases. And it's been going
on for a long time. Historically speaking, people going missing
in Mexico has only been the data has only been
kept since like nineteen sixty two, and in that time,
(06:08):
one hundred and twenty thousand people in Mexico have gone missing.
One hundred and twenty thousand people missing. I don't know
how many we have in the US since nineteen sixty two.
But I would think one hundred and twenty thousand people
going missing is a big number and you might have
to have an answer and finding this camp. They found
(06:30):
out that, well, the local police did find the camp.
They found it back several months ago in September, where
they arrested ten people. They released two people who were
there at being held against their will, and they found
a body wrapped in plastic. But they didn't go any
further apparently until the Jalisco search warriors showed up, and
(06:51):
then you know, we know what's going on. It's been
followed by the New York Times in the Washington Post,
and that's where when you sent me this information, I
started thinking, surely this has to be an overstatement of
what they've found, and it's actually an underplay.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah, And I got to tell you, I don't know
that they have found well, there's no way you can't.
If people think, let's go back to the example of
the concentration camps in Europe. If people think that they
found everything over there, you're fooling yourself because they haven't.
They you know, there are people that are gone that
(07:29):
no one will ever know about you know, what actually
became of them, but it was directly related to an
individual camp. I submit to you the same thing as
in practice here where you only have and look, as
scientists forensics, we only have what we have before us.
We can't really speculate, particularly if we're going to go
(07:51):
to court about what could have been. However, when you
I think that at the root of it, you know,
when you begin to think about the uh, you least
go province there that area. And by the way, there
is actually a cartel there named the New Generation. At
(08:11):
least go Cartel. I find it interesting that the families
adopted that name. Uh. It takes at guts. I mean,
you and I can talk. You and I can talk
big and bold as much as we want to hear.
You know, safely ensconced in America. However, you know you're
(08:32):
down there and it's a wild West, brother, and you
know that you're going to go out as family member
and certain you know, you just get to the point,
I think, and particularly if you get a collective of families,
you know, what do we have in common? Well, our
loved ones are missing, and Dave, we're not. And this
is really one of the big sad things about it.
(08:52):
We'll get into this a little bit later, but we're
not talking about adult military age males here, that's in
the grouping. We've got small children whose remains have been found.
So when you go from and you know, I knew
(09:14):
doctor Clyde Snow, who if for any of our friends
out there that are not familiar with Clyde Snows, he's
a guy that coined the phrase that I'm fond of.
I teach a section on forensic anthropology. He coined the
phrase called osteobiography, which you're telling the story of someone
(09:35):
through their skeletal remains. It sounds rather simplistic, but back
back when he coined that phrase, it was rather revolutionary.
And to that point, doctor Snow went to Central America
back in the seventies in the eighties and did excavation
on mass mass graves down there that were politically you know,
(09:57):
some of this political stuff that was going on down there,
But most of the people that they would recover out
of those out of those graves were military age males.
You know, and you when you take up the scalp
remains out of the ground, there are certain metrics that
you measure these remains by where you know, the forensic
(10:18):
pathologists can ballpark first off, what sex is and what
the age is. But Dave, that's we're talking about something
now where you begin to see families, young women, children,
There were children's toys found about. You know that when
(10:43):
you start to talk about and that's why the UN
sponsors a lot of these things, like doctors without borders,
forensic anthropologists a part of that. Many times they'll go
over and they'll do these masks, these mass grave recoveries.
The word, the word genocide begins to slip into the
conversation because it's one thing if you're fighting an enemy,
(11:08):
say military age males, all right, But when you're going
into homes and perhaps kidnapping and attempting to eradicate an
entire family, it's much more. If anything can be more chilling,
it certainly is. It begins to approach that. And all
(11:29):
of these remains, such as they are, are you know,
kind of bonded together there. And so kudos to these
family members that went out there and began to search
the grounds of a location. Like you had mentioned that
the police had already been today.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Right, they just didn't look further. But now are we
really talking about being able to identify human beings from
the ash from the what's left over from the remains
the creamines rather, or are we really going to have
to make certain assumptions based on clothing shoes left behind,
the sizes, the types we do know. We've got this
(12:08):
picture that has gone from this and it shows pictures
of clothing, but shoes in particular. You get children's sizes
of shoes, women's shoes. We're not just talking about men,
as you mentioned, that were somehow ran a foul of
the cartel. We're talking about people who have been wiped
out for whatever reason. And I don't pretend to know
(12:32):
what goes into the thought process of a cartel when
they're taking over an area. We know that based on
what we have seen in the past, they rule. You know,
it's a life or death situation every day, and children
are included in this. If you do not bend to
their will, if you don't do what they tell you
to do, they kill you, mainly because they don't want
(12:54):
you ratting on them. You know, somebody who does not
participate is the enemy. So is that what we're really
looking at here? That these people were recruited to become
part of the cartel in becoming foot soldiers or whatever
they wanted, and they were given the opportunity to join
or not. And if they decided, I'm not going to
be a part of this, then they practiced their torture
(13:16):
techniques and ways to murder on the people who wouldn't
go along. Is that what we're dealing with. I'm curious
because that's what it looks like.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
No, I don't think it's people that want simply, it's
not just a matter of using people that are eradicating
people that are not going along. I think that death
death is utilized as a message. You know, there are
a number of accounts it was actually portrayed. For those
(13:49):
that have actually seen the movie Cecario, the very first one.
There's been two. I think they might do a third.
But the Ccario, there's when they go to war. As
in the first first part of that movie, you see
people corpses hung off of bridges and strung up by
(14:10):
the neck, dead in various stages of decay because people
are afraid to cut them down. They're sending a message
with that and listen, those people are not that you see.
And I think one of the characters in the movie
actually alludes to this is and this has been known
for some time. As part of the methodology, you don't
necessarily have to be a direct threat to the cartel.
(14:33):
Your mortal remains, Dave, and let that sink in. Your
mortal remains are used as a big, flashing, decaying neon
sign to those that are outside to beware or you
might wind up in the same condition they've I want
(15:11):
to get back to the families in their search for
these remains. You had pointed something out to me in
your production notes that really stuck with me, because I
don't think that I've ever heard of this methodology as
a forensic scientist that has spent a lot of time
(15:33):
in the field looking for human remains. Is it true
from what you're reading that this Hillsco family group went
out with metal rods searching beneath the earth looking for you?
And how are they what methodology are they applying here
(15:55):
in order to facilitate this This is it's mind blowing.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Well, you know, they don't have have ground penetrating radar
and things like that that we expect here when we're
dealing with an investigation. And as we mentioned, we are
dealing with volunteers, and you, I'm so glad you pointed
out that they even name themselves, that these volunteers are
truly warriors, they know what they're faced with, and yet
(16:22):
they use the name Jalisco Search Warriors. I know, I
said Julli'sco earlier, Sorry, Jalisco Search Warriors, because it's a
knockoff of the Jalisco New Generation cartel. And they're saying,
this is who we are, We're going to do something,
and knowing what they are faced with day in and
day out, which is certain death at some point, and
(16:43):
yet they go into this place that the police were
in not that long ago, and they start discovering things
that the police failed to look into, and they use
a poker of some sort. And I made a note
of it because I was thinking, are they when we
(17:06):
look at how one investigates something of this nature? How
do you search layer by layer to know what you're
actually looking for? We see archaeologists in movies and on TV,
and how they have You know, they got string going
everywhere in pegs, and they're march do all out and
they're using brushes and their fingers and you know they're
(17:27):
going all out that's not what we have here. We've
got a group of volunteers who are trying to find
loved ones that they are presumer dead, and they find
these bones, and so they're starting to dig around and
they use a metal poker to actually stick in the
ground and they pull it out and they smell it, Yeah,
to figure out what it is that is actually beneath
(17:49):
their feet. Is there a certain smell of death that
they are trying to smell that actually could be recovered
in such a way.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Yeah, you're up right, And it all depends on and
what you're looking for when you're doing a body recovery.
And in this case, you know, they don't know what
they're what they're doing with because you know, if you
had if you had ground penetrating radar out there and
you were running over the surface, which, by the way,
(18:19):
for those that have never seen ground penetrating radar, they
used to look a lot like an old push mower.
But they're a bit more compact now and they rely
relay data back to a central server, and that data
that's being bounced back up to the machine, it's being
(18:41):
translated and you can pick up on different formations beneath
the surface, but just to begin with, and it's something
that we look like look for in modern body recovery
because you have to be very careful here because I
know most people think about archaeology and Anna Jones, when
(19:02):
you're you're thinking about ancient archaeology, the layering that goes
on is so deep, dependent upon obviously the strata will
be so deep, dependent upon how many years back you're going,
and so it'll be really packed down, the soil will
be Okay, So like you and I, we live in
(19:26):
an area that was heavily populated by the name that
the Whites gave them, which was the Creek Indians. Okay.
As a matter of fact, one of our local shopping centers,
and you might be familiar with the story, they built
a shopping center here and there was a huge mound
behind it and they just assumed that it was a hill,
(19:47):
and they cut into that hill and they took field
dirt out of it. Well, it turned out that it
was actually an Indian mound. It's one of the great
shames around here, having a considerable amount of Native American
ancestry in my family tree. It, you know, it was
a real shame that they didn't do their due diligence
(20:09):
in trying to understand that. But you know, when you
see that, it just looks like a hill, okay, And
that's the presumption that they went under when we're talking
about a fresh burial like this, and this is fresh
when we look at the broad time. You know, when
you compare it to ancient we're not talking about the
Mayans or the Aztecs or anything like that down in
(20:30):
meso America. We're talking about people that have died just
in the last few years. So one of the things
that even a neophyte that's going out to search for remains,
you're looking for what's referred to as turned to earth.
So on the surface of it, when we're surveying an area,
(20:51):
the first thing we're going to look for is disruption
of vegetation. That's one of the markers that you look
for when you go out to an area, and it
can be something very benign, like, for instance, if you've
got and I know nothing about the flora in this
in the Hollisco state there in Mexico. However, let's just
(21:14):
say they've got some kind of particular scrub brush that's
low growth and it's populating the entire area. Well, what's
really fascinating. You can do this yourself. If you go
out to an area and you've got a common nuisance
weed that's growing it very well, if you see a
big area that's absent of that weed that is naturally occurring,
(21:40):
there's an assumption that you can make saying, well, something
has occurred in this specific area that that vegetation no
longer grows here or hasn't grown here in some time. Okay,
So as a starting point, one of the things that
you would look for is disruption of vegetation, and then
you would look for uneven soil where it looks like
somebody has put shovel to dirt or heavy equipment to
(22:03):
dirt and they've literally turned the soil. Because once you
unpack soil, Dave, this is what gets me about people
that bury bodies. Once you turn that soil, it is
impossible to get that soil to get back to its
natural configuration. That took hundreds, maybe thousands of years. No
(22:26):
one has put a tool to it, and in all
of that time, and suddenly you think that you're going
to mask that area by taking a shovel out of
the shed and you're going to dig a hole and
you know we're going to see it. You know, well
it'll stand out and it doesn't matter really. I submit
to you, Dave, that you could go out there with
(22:46):
a group of guys with you know those tampers that
they use that are kind of square, you see them
on work sites. You get a whole team of guys
out there and kind of tamp in the soil around there,
it's still not going to match up visually to what
the rest of the naturally occurring area is. So, you know,
(23:09):
for these families that are going out there and they
don't have access to this kind of technology like we
have here or in other locations, you gotta do what
you got to do, and to take a metal rod
and to begin to stick it into the soil and
draw it out. First off, you're going to test the depth.
How far down can you get that metal rod? You know,
(23:31):
are you going to strike kind of a solid, solid
structure down below, because you're if you've got decaying human
remains that are below the surface, you're not really going
to be able to to say, okay, I just pass.
Their human remains really not going to feel it. Most
(23:52):
of the time, but when you draw it out, there
will be dependent upon how fresh dead people are. There
will be a foul to this that you will certainly
appreciate very very quickly. And it's not going to smell
necessarily like if you took the rod and placed it
into the ground, you happen you have happened upon methane
or something like that. It's not going to have have that.
(24:14):
It's not going to have a rotten egg smell to it.
It will in fact our sulf or rather, it will
have a very distinctive human decay smell to it, even
mixed with the dirt, commingled with the dirt. And so
that's what they're doing. And I can only imagine that
you've got people out there. I've imagined these people with
pieces of rebar, which is like you know what you
(24:36):
use to reinforce concrete with, and they're kind of walking
a breast and they're kind of sticking these things in
the ground. And they've got this organized to the point
where somebody and we do this still when we're surveying
an area, we will walk abreast at a what we
think is a dump sight or a burial site. There'll
be a team of us. We'll walk abreast and when
(24:58):
one person finds something, everybody halts. You don't progress beyond that,
and you mark it with a flag, and in a
rudimentary way. That might be what they're doing. This is
an old tom skill that they're employing. You know, before
the days, you know that we had ground penetrating radar.
Somebody has experience that's out there looking for the dead
and this isn't you know, this isn't their first rodeo either. Yeah.
(25:21):
I keep picking because there's a method to the to
the madness here.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
I'm picturing Yukon Cornelius, you know in Rudolph when he
took his pick and he'd throw it up and he
was stick in the ice and he'd take it and
smell it and lick it, you know, and it was
like that was his I'm kind of picturing these guys
the same way they're paid. And I'm so glad you
said Revar. I was trying to picture in my head
what type of metal, and that actually does fit because
(25:45):
if you just go out of your backyard and you
stick a piece of metal like that, like Revar, just
see what you can do in your grass. It's not
going down very deep. No, but if you go to
an area where you were digging and where you were
you know, planting something and you stick it in there,
it's going to go in several inches. So that's your
first indicator that you have soil, you've got an area.
(26:06):
Isn't there a way when we're searching for bodies and
not we but in stories you and I have covered
where law enforcement flies overhead and they can actually have
an ability to see areas with infrared that have been disturbed.
Where you do have ground that has changed. Because you
(26:26):
pointed out you got thousands of years where it's been
sitting there, nobody messing with it. Now all of a
sudden it's been turned up. It is going to be
different scientifically speaking.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yeah, and I'm glad you said that because we go
back to the Daybill case out in Idaho. How quickly
we she's in our trial right now. I think I
already forgot about that, but we you know, early on
when I saw that site, you know where they sat,
you know, I remember I was alive on the air
(26:55):
when I saw it, and I talked about how that's
a ring. I think I was on CNN when I
saw it the first time, and I said, and that's
a great disposal area, And it turned out that that's
where Kaylee's remains were. My understanding was was that they
were doing drone flyovers relative to that area to try
(27:17):
to map the area initially. Now I don't know if
that ever came to fruition, but that's one of the
things that the authorities had at least leaked out at
one point in time that they were trying to get
images to see where the soil has been disrupted in
that area. And it was but it was kind of plain.
You didn't need because you know, you look at Chad
day Bell's property and it's pasture land. You know, that
(27:40):
block of land. It's like a paddock what they call
a paddock where you keep horses and whatnots kind of
fenced in and all of that. You saw green grass growing.
But in that those areas, like I was referring to earlier,
where Kaylee was found and of course that little boy
was found, that was like immediately adjacent to that tree,
and that was like an old dried up retention pond
(28:03):
that soil had had been turned. You can also do
air sampling as well to get an idea of what's
decaine beneath the surface. Now you don't know if it's
you can't say with scientific certainty, which some people would
have you believe. Think back to Casey Anthony by the way.
(28:27):
They'll say you can specifically, you know, say that this
is a human decomposing down there. No, you can't, because
it might be any kind of animal. But at least
you're in a at least you're in the neighborhood, you know,
when you're conducting an investigation, so they can do air
sampling as well. But you know, these people are not
going to have that kind of technology. This was This
(28:49):
was sheer determination and elbow grease on the part of
these families. And that's that's what's so touching brutal about this.
They're missing all these family members. And you know, one
of the things that really tugged at me when I
(29:09):
saw it initially when this case came up. If you
didn't need any more emphasis here, because we're hearing stories
about cremation ovens, we're hearing stories about particulate bomb, we've
heard rumors of children and toys. But the one thing
that really stuck in my mind was an image that
(29:32):
I saw many years ago when I visited the Holocaust
Museum in DC. It affected me to the point where
I can't go back in there. And it was shoes,
collected shoes, piles of them. You can't take the measure
(29:53):
of it, but you can look at each pair and
know that they represent someone who was loved this Guarry Ranch,
(30:18):
I'm looking at an image of it right now. The
reason I'm looking at this image is that there is
a shot of a Mexican National guardsmen in full military
kit standing outside of the gate. He's standing there, and
(30:40):
when I say gate, I'm talking about a gate that
has got the name emblazoned on the front of it.
It's a steel gate, It's massive, and there are two
dancing horses on the outside of it. It was within
these walls, that's three three crematory ovens were discovered. And
(31:06):
you can't you cannot run fast enough to sell me
the story if they did not know what was going
on inside of those walls. Dave, And one of the
big things here is that people are terrified, even the authorities.
We've known that for a long time. What went on
on the other side of those walls is horrific. I
(31:28):
think my question is this still going on in other locations,
because this seems The reason I think that it could
potentially be is the fact that Dave, based upon what
we're hearing and seeing right now, they seem to have
this now to a science.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
You know, you get to the effort underground show. Yeah,
I mean that's not something you just come up with
all of a sudden. This is through trial and error,
just like the Nazis did during World War Two when
they were developing destruction of human beings on an end
austrial scale. They tried many different things. They started off
(32:05):
just shooting everybody, you know, they'd have their soldiers shoot them,
and they saw there was an emotional component to that
that actually was causing harm to their soldiers. So they
then decided carbon monoxide. They're actually pictures of these long
showers that were hooked up and you've got cars with tailpipes,
you know, extensions going into these buildings. That didn't get
(32:26):
work fast enough. I mean, they just kept developing it
until finally they're like, you know what, we're going to
poison them in the showers and just take the bodies
right over here. These ovens, these three crematory ovens, were
all underground, which means they had to have piping to
get the exhaust down. It's got to go somewhere, and
(32:46):
it's going to have a distinct I'm guessing a distinct odor.
You're not going to be burning bodies down to you know,
just FYI.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
So you know this.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
When you get cremains back from if it's a loved
one and they've been cremated. I remember the first time
seeing I thought it was powdery, like U see in
movies where people they spread ashes and they're really ashes.
They just kind of float off into the ether, and
that's not what you get. It's much different than that.
Oftentimes there's teeth and bone fragments and things like that
(33:19):
in the cremains, and that's what we're finding here. So
we've got these three ovens underground that they're using to
try to destroy evidence being human beings. And I'm wondering,
what can you get forensically out of the cremains, show
what's left behind. Is there a possibility of getting DNA, Well, heat.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Really compromises things. I think that that would be very difficult.
I think the best they're going to be able to
do is probably aging of the remains one of the
big keys that are going to be the teeth, the
teeth that you recover, and that's a real shame because
you you know, teeth are not bone. Just everybody understands
(34:07):
that teeth are socketed in bone, you know, in our
mandible and our maxilla, but they are not bone. They're
the composition is completely different, and they're more resilient. As
a matter of fact, I think I've talked about it
on bodybags, but if you were to you know, they
talk about extracting DNA from long bones or you know,
like the head of the femur, that sort of thing.
(34:28):
I talk about how if you were to think biologically
of a I don't know, a conveyance or storage for DNA,
bone would be a leather briefcase and teeth would be
a titanium briefcase. They're both serving the purpose of storing
(34:49):
DNA and you can collect them. But teeth are so resilient.
You know, when it comes, you know, you get into
the pulp and you can extract it from there. One
of the components with a crematory, which we don't have
evidence of right now, and I'm going to be very
curious to find this out Dave is In crematories, I've
(35:10):
seen two things. I've seen great big marble rollers that
are at the end of the conveyor belt that come
out of you know, that come out of the ovens,
and they run opposing so as the remains go down.
And this is really old timing here, I don't think
(35:31):
anybody uses anymore. They roll opposing these big rollers and
they're essentially bone crushers and they crush everything else that's
that remains and you know, it's collected in a bent.
Now they use an auger, which you know, if you've
ever seen an auger, which is kind of graduated, looks
(35:52):
like a gigantic screw that's used now to facilitate the
crushing of the bones here at Jacksonville State. As a
matter of fact, I've got a local funeral home that
I take my death investigation class too, and they have
a crematory there and it's really profound for the students
to walk in there and to see and everything has
(36:14):
dust on it that yeah, I mean, it's there's dust,
you know when you walk in and.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
It's not really dust, is it, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Well, yeah, it's it's there's a residue that is there
but that's that's part of you know, there's nothing. I
think people want to think that, you know, death is
so clean, and it's not. It's dirty business. It's very
dirty business. And you know, with our our cases that
(36:45):
we're talking about today, with this what what the media
has termed as a concentration camp, because it's not just
the disposal of the reins. They found evidence of torture
chambers there too, day where I think think part of
what you said was really accurate earlier. They're trying to
extricate information from somebody, you know, while else do you
(37:07):
to unless you're just a pure sadist and you get
off on torturing people, which I'm not saying that these
individuals may be. I have no idea, but when you
think about the purpose of torture, you want to extract
information from people, And there's evidence that this had been
(37:29):
ongoing in this area. And what information could a child have,
you know, unless the child is their torture is being
used as a way to elicit information from maybe an
adult that's you know, maybe a parent or something, which
again is very chilling. And all of these remains are
(37:50):
being found commingled, so one of the problems that you're
going to encounter if in fact all the remains have
been cremated, because some of them very well may not have.
And so you might have those that are that are
buried in certain locations. Going back to this probe that
they're using to go down into the earth, you might
(38:13):
have people that were intact when they were buried. And
that's going to give you a clue because you can
you know, everything is like a investigatively. It's like if
people will just envision in their mind an inverted funnel.
So as you get closer to the apex of it,
at the top of it, if you've got it, it looks
like a mountain peak. Your information is slowly beginning to
(38:34):
narrow it down. And if you you know, if you
have an intact body where you can get sex, age, race,
those elements, you might have shot at getting them identified,
and you know that they're not part of the cremains.
And if there are other people in that intact body,
if there are members of their family that are still missing,
(38:59):
than one of the assumptions you can make investigatively is
they may have been cremated and you might not find
them there on the compound or elsewhere, you know where
they've been discarded, so you know, at the end of
the day, though, when you have these cremated remains that
are literally comingled, you're gonna have bone chips that are
(39:20):
thrown together. Well, you can pretty easily separate adolescent pre
adolescent skeletal remains from adult remains. It's going to be
really hard though, to narrow down age ranges. You know,
if you've only got certain elements, like if you've got,
for instance, and you know when we grow, for instance,
(39:43):
we have these epipacile plates that you know, where you
get the growing pains and that sort of thing where
it's not completely fused yet. That's one of the things
that we look for in children to see if their
bones are completely fused. If they've gone beyond that, then
we can hang a number on that. But that doesn't
necessarily mean that we can get them identified beyond putting
(40:05):
them specifically into an age group. There's no guarantee that
you can say, well, this person is this particular age,
and you can't certainly distill it down into anything more
fine than that to say it is this person.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
You can't even do that with cremains. You got cremains.
You can't do any of that.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
No, you know, the only thing that I was really
thinking about here, Dave, is that the thing about the teeth,
teeth are a great identifier. They're a grand identifier if
you do have a DNA database and you can harvest
out of the pulp if you can, and again that's
going to be a long shot because even the teeth
are exposed to a tremendous heat. A regular crematory, you know,
(40:47):
will we'll blast away fifteen hundred and sixteen hundred and
seventeen hundred degrees and depend upon size of the individual,
it takes some time to render them down. And this
isn't you know, we talked about this being an industrial scale.
So if they're and by the way, they have no
idea as to how many bodies there actually are. That's
(41:08):
what's so terrifying about this. You know, these investigators, if
they are so inclined, need to get their pencil and
paper out, go to those those ovens and write down
any serial numbers that are on there, When were they constructed,
when where they purchased? That might give you an indication
(41:28):
as to when all of it started, unless unless they
were handmade which you know is certainly a possibility. People
do fabulous you know, metal work and that sort of thing.
Is that something and where they automated to the point
where you had a movable belt in there, you know,
where it's drawing the remains, you know, through the oven
(41:49):
after they've been rendered down at that point in time.
There's so many things that they could do though investigatively,
to try to time frame this thing out. If you've
got people, if you've got people that have facilitated and
built this thing underground, Dave, that takes a special skill set.
(42:11):
You're not just going to go out on the street
and say, hey, can you dig a big hole from me?
If I'm going to build, you know, a multi flu
crematory subterranean, can you help me with them? You're looking
for somebody that would have that capability from ranging from
everything to plumbing to heating to metal work. It's it's
(42:38):
it's high end labor. You know.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
When you look at this, Joe and I'm I hate
Dann to rept you here, but it just occouraged me.
One of the things that we learned from the group
the Warrior, the Halisco Search Warriors, is that the gang
the drug cartel. The gang would actually use phony employment
advertisements to lure men to a Guadalajara bus station. The
(43:03):
gang members would meet them there with the idea they're
going to get a job and take them to one
of the extermination camps. I say camps because I cannot
I can't imagine this being the only one, just the
only one they found so far that they're willing to
talk about. But if they were looking at doing something
and you just mentioned metalwork, plumbing, things like that, what
(43:24):
if they were advertising for that to lure these people in,
they have them do the job at gunpoint or whatever
and make them do that, and then they're the first
victims to go through the new crematorium that's been subterranean,
that has been created underground. Just a thought, because that
is no and we do.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
No brand idea, because now you don't have the individuals
that initiated the construction of it to go out and
blab about it. You kill them and you liquidate them essentially,
and then if you need other maintenance done, then that's
just something that's going to be on you and your
posse that will get the knocked out, you know, over time,
(44:02):
and they would have to have test subjects for it,
you know, to see if it actually worked, which is
horrific in and of itself. The other thing that we're
kind of missing here is how are these how are
these folks being taken out? You know, if you go
back again to our example of the uh Nazi concentration camps, uh,
(44:27):
those things were done on mass scale. Well, I don't
think that we're approaching those numbers obviously, but you know,
you're in the tens of people here, maybe the hundreds
of people. You begin to think, well, you know, bullets
are cheap, right, and if it's a single shot to
(44:48):
the back of the head, that doesn't really you know,
cost a lot in order to you know, meeting your
bottom line. Are they killing them in other ways? Is
do they tour them to death? For instance? You know
these fatalities you know, occurring while they're in some kind
of dungeon that's been you know, where they're tied to
(45:09):
the wall and you've got evidence of blood letting that
has been going on in this environment. You know, this
this case, these cases in particular, they are as you
said from the top day, these are evidence rich environments
(45:30):
bathed in forensic science or elements where forensic science can
be applied and you can figure these things out, everything
from forensic engineering to dentistry, to pathology to archaeology, anthropology.
I know I'm missing some, but here here's the rub,
(45:54):
as they say, the rub is, yeah, your samples exist.
There's science to processes samples. But do the governmental authorities
possess the will to do it right? I'm Joseph Scott
(46:16):
Morgan and this is Bodybacks
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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