June 18, 2024 • 42 mins
Why did police serve another search warrant at the home of Rex Heuermann? Remember, his wife and children still live in the house. After his original arrest and the search warrants were served, pictures appeared in the press showing the damage done as the home was stripped. What did they miss? Why did they bring out the ME? On this episode of Body Bags Joseph Scott Morgan will take you into the house and what the ME might be looking for as well as the crime scenes and what has been found. Dave Mack will explain the “To-Do” list and go over the electronics Heuermann has been keeping for decades.
Transcript Highlights
00:00:00 Introduction: Bernice Worden last victim of Ed Gein
00:02:20 Discussion of Gilgo document release
00:06:54 Talk about being on a jury
00:09:44 Discussion – warning about content of episode
00:13:55 Discussion of why go back with another search warrant?
00:19:05 Talk about Rex Heuermann and the list he created
00:23:11 Discussion of Heuermann electronics
00:27:02 Discussion of Rex Heuermann planning note began in 2000
00:30:59 Talk about violent, sexual torture
00:34:17 Discussion of going to a scene, police don’t know what they have
00:38:35 Talk about mutilated body a few miles from home
00:42:15 Talk about access to material was different in the 1990s
00:42:50 Conclusion, why they called the ME out to the scene
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
There's nothing really significant about the name Bernice Borden. Probably
most people outside of the realm of maybe true crime
nerds would actually know that name. But let me tell
you about Bernice Warden. Bernice Warden was a store owner
(00:30):
in a little out of the way place in the
Upper Midwest and Wisconsin, specifically called Plainfield. You know, the
name of that town kind of common in and of itself,
Like Bernice's name is not something that would really make
you stand up and take notice. But what happened in Plainfield, Wisconsin,
(00:58):
back in the fifties rock the world at that moment, Tom,
because that's where another person lived by the name of
ed Geen. Now, the way Bernice plays into what I'm
trying to tell you is that she was actually the
last victim of ed Geen, and when she was discovered
(01:20):
by the police, she was hanging by her feet and
what's referred to as the deershed on ed Gean's property.
She had been eviscerated and beheaded. You said, Morgan, why
are you talking about this right now? Well, here's the reason.
(01:42):
Because in order to suspend Benice Borden's body within a
fixed structure, you have to have something called a hard point.
And in today's discussion, we're going to talk about some
documents that were covered allegedly by the police at the
(02:03):
home and within the electronic devices of rex Huremant. And
guess what the term hard point is mentioned in those
documents as well. I am Joseph Scott Morgan and this
is body bags. Well, Dave, here we sit where I
(02:30):
don't know how many days ago I guess roughly seven
maybe seven days five five seven days ago when these
documents were released by the prosecutor's office.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Great Tierney, Yeah, journey is all about getting this information
out to the boy he is.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
He wants everybody to hear it. I mean, and look,
it's it's been a long time coming. And listen, let
me a word of warning here, be very careful out
there in the general public for people that want knowledge
about this case, be very very careful of what you're
asking about this.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I think I had combat pay coming after this horrible.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah, it is horrible when when you think about, you know,
the alleged depravity here. And can I go back to
that term real quick hard point. I did a little
digging in addition to having at least some peripheral experience
with field dressing animals, and certainly my experience of working
(03:42):
in the morgue. You know, my Papa used to refer
to the skinning, the cleaning or field dressing of a
deer as trusting a deer up. And that's that's what
he would and he trusts hogs up and all that
sort of stuff. The fact that there are also practices
(04:05):
out there in the world in which we dwell involving
certain sexual practices that involve hard points, that is, where
people are involved in things like bondage and suspension. And
I didn't realize that suspension is it is a complete
(04:26):
and total compartmentalized sexual practice, if you will, and it
bends toward toward BDSM, torture, simulated torture, those sorts of things.
Control is what it comes down to. And we hear
(04:46):
that again. Here's that word again. I always use. It's
kind of wrote at this point, but yeah, control And
the fact that rex Huermann allegedly has annotate that word
in these notes. Now keep in mind he's an architect too,
but and you would think that he would be familiar
(05:09):
with building terms like that, because there are, in fact,
if you have a huge vaulted ceiling. Perhaps you have
a hard point hard point contact up there you're going
to suspend something from like maybe a big chandelier. But Dave,
I gotta tell you, I don't think this is in
reference to suspension of lighting fixtures in a home.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
You know, the thing that we deal with with Rex
Huerman Joe. And it goes back to why the Suffolk
County DA Ray Tierney has been very public with the findings.
It's not so much that it's salacious and gets in
boats or money or whatever. It's because there is so
much And I was thinking about this after we did
(05:51):
the the episode last week covering that there have been
another search warrant executed and this is what they found
because we did a pretty big overview and he was
charged with two additional murders. So now it's not the
gill Go four, it's the gilg six. And now we
have another a dumping ground as well. So what they're doing,
(06:14):
the Prosecutor's Office is doing, I believe, disseminating information to
the public so that it is not like Nancy Gray
says on the show, drinking out of a fire hose,
that people can actually get the information and realize what
we're dealing with here is a real mentally disturbed, psychological
(06:37):
serial murderer that may have been capable of doing all
the murders or just the ones he's charged with in
terms of Gilgo Beach and beyond.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Hey, let me let me ask you a question real quick, David.
You know, with my background in forensics and be an
investigator and now a professor of forensics at Jacksonville State,
do you know that I've been disqualified from jury duty
(07:10):
on multiple occasions, and because I'd always get called I'd
always get called up on some kind of criminal thing,
you know. I always want to serve on a jury.
I was like, look, just give me a divorce case.
I don't care. I just want to be on a
jury to say that I've been on a jury all
right now. I know people are grimacing probably out there,
but look, I think it's a great It's one of
the privileges, okay, that we have as Americans, and I'd
(07:33):
always wanted to do it, but you know, fortune hasn't
shined on me at this point. However, I want to
ask you this question, what what do you think? What
do you think about the release of this volume of information,
this kind of detailed information. If if in fact you
(07:55):
were a resident of that area and you were potentially
in that juror pool, that pool of potential jurors, do
you do you think you know it was a citizen?
Do you with that Inflo? Are you going? I mean,
if you live up there, I would assume you're going
to go to your new source and and look at this?
Is it hard? I mean we've heard this, not just
(08:17):
with this, but you know, Idaho has been talked about
extensively relatively how many.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Big crimes are coming out of that area of the
country right now? Joe, think about it. I didn't even
know where Moscow, Idaho is. I didn't know where Washington
State was in Poland. I mean, I didn't know this.
And now we've got right now, we've got a student
at Washington State that was going through Moscow and the
pullman that they took off with the child. You know,
we've got a you know, we've there are all kinds
of crazy crimes taking place in that in that area
(08:45):
right now, right right and before that, you know, what
do we have? We had Ballo and Davel But as
you mentioned with this one with Rex Huerman, I wonder
what value it has to release so much information all
this early on in the investigative process, because if you're
a potential jury, if you're going to be seated, is
(09:07):
it a warning salvo of all of the stuff you're
going to deal with?
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Or Wow, I hadn't thought about that, but you know,
because you know, when you were first speaking in our
in kind of our open there, you had mentioned kind
of letting this out, you know, use the the you
know the comment they always you know, drinking of a
fire hose, Dave dripp, slow down, You're just this this
(09:32):
is essentially drip grip. Yeah. It really makes me wonder
because there's other people that have also wondered this. How
many more? Yeah? And I think that that, Oh my lord,
you and I.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Had many others that we have relationships with in this
world of crime news reporting, and you even on a
different level from an investigation standpoint, Joe, there is no
way this man killed for a brief period of time
and dumped in that one. And they're proving it now.
They're absolutely laying it out there. He didn't just kill
(10:09):
between twenty ten and twenty thirteen and the bodies of
found ten years later or or you know, just that
thea that he has been out at ten years later,
we now were going back to the early nineties, and
I think they're laying this out there so people can
start to absorb the fact that this guy was killing
for decades, and I think they might have the look
we're looking. Well, we'll break it down in a minute,
(10:30):
but right right, Joe, let me ask you this because
you sent this to me after we did the last show.
You and Kim were talking about it, and you had
three major things and I got to ask you about
this because number one, what compelled the police to go
back to the scene. It's not like they didn't already
go through rex Hueman's house and we saw because remember
(10:51):
the attorney's posted pictures of the damage left behind by
the police. And I'm thinking that that really ticked me
off because I'm thinking, what about the families who have
missing loved ones that this guy was the last person
known to be with them, And you're worried about your
sink being torn up. They're looking for my loved ones,
part of her tooth. Okay, that's what they're trying to
(11:12):
find in your home right now. But anyway, this is
a home that his wife. His children still occupy. The
adult children, one I think is special needs, but they
have a daughter that's not special needs. Two adult children,
and they're in this home that you described as quite
a bit of a dump compared to the other houses
in the neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Oh my lord. Yeah. And it's not a this is
not just so that people, you know, because standing there
in like real time, deserving this place. It's a it's
just kind of a standard ranch, you know, like a
sixty style ranch home. And you know, when you begin
to discuss or consider the police going back out there, right,
(11:57):
what other whatether the locations are you sifting through out there?
And also, this is another thing that I've wondered, Dave.
And the other day we were on one episode, forgive me,
I can't remember which one, but we were actually discussing
I don't know if it was with you, No, I
can't recall they it piles up after a while, but
we were talking about getting warrants to search locations because
(12:22):
even if they're even if you've got a dead body
in the house, once you've established a person is dead,
you have to back out of the house, wait for
a warrant, and then come back, Dave, do you think
do you think they got in there? Initially began and
in their warrant it did not include certain areas or
(12:45):
certain things in that house. And they went back to
a magistrate or someone and said, you know what, we
need to detail this out a little more and perhaps
make this warrant a bit a bit more robust. And
that was just the initial thought that I had. Are
(13:08):
they still working on the initial warrant where they had
listed all of these things that places that were going
to search, things that were going to search for. And
the thing about things you're going to search for in
a warrant, you never know what you're going to find,
you know, ergo, that's the purpose of a warrant. You know,
you suspect that things are going to be there.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Most of you listening are crime sophisticated. You followed crimes
and you know how they roll out. But a lot
of people don't realize until recently from shows like ours,
what a search warrant does, what it tells people like
you and me, because when they become public, we can
look at what the police what they're thinking is what
the investigators have found that leads them to believe other
(13:45):
evidence will be found in this location, which is what
you're making the point of what did they find that
they couldn't do anything with last time, Because as you say,
it's that fruit of the poison tree. If while they're
in there they see something in the corner that they
didn't expect to see, didn't know was there, they cannot
(14:05):
remove it. They've got to leave it sitting there and
pray that they can get a warrant to go back
and hope that the people living in this house don't
find it and remove it. Remove it first. There's a
lot of gamesmanship that goes into this.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Oh there is, there is, and there's there's so many
court cases that are out there day we go from
every semester in my class is relative to evidence, and
you know that. Here's the thing is that when you
you can, you have to have a plan before you
walk through that door. Because you mentioned this idea of
(14:38):
the fruit of the poison tree, and there's a number
of ways that can be interpreted. But I love the
term hidden spaces. So if if you get into a
location and a hidden particular space is not accounted for,
like maybe something that's behind a retaining wall that was
hidden a burial space, a rat hole and rat holes
(14:59):
of general line term that we used many times to
talk about people that we will store things away, particularly
when it comes to serial perpetrators, so they can go
back and relive these events vividly. They're holding on to
these items, and there might be an indication that he
was a collector in a sense, but the thoroughness of
(15:20):
his list that he created, and I know it sound
like I'm bouncing all over the board, but I got
to tell you this kind of drawing the curtain down
on the segment. I was on air two nights ago
with doctor Gary Briccado. And I don't know if you
know Gary or not, Dave, but he's he is a
(15:42):
forensic psychiatrist or a psychologist and very bright dude. I've
been on with him a lot on Core TV. And
you know, he said something really striking. He was like
in a segment before me and I was sitting there
and you sit there in front of the monitor, you
got your earpiece and you're just waiting, you know, you're
waiting for your turn. And I was sitting there listening
(16:03):
to Gary talk and Gary said that he said, you know,
Hureman a paraphrasing Hureman is almost something from the past.
He said, when he started allegedly all those years ago,
there wasn't there weren't phones, there was no surveillance. There,
(16:29):
there was very little CCTV, and if you did have it,
it didn't work and you had to go to very
specific locations for that. He started allegedly in that world,
and he kind of straddled time here where we were
at the end with all of those infamous serial killers
(16:50):
that came out of the seventies and the eighties that
were in not so technologically sophisticated times, and all of
a sudden he breached over into the modern era. And
it did interesting the tools that we now possess might
lead to a conviction of a case that occurred decades
(17:11):
and decades ago. I watch all of these things that
you see in Instagram, these little reels I think they're called,
(17:35):
where they'll have these, you know, these kind of life
advice things. There's always things like what the stoics said
about life, and then there's things if you want to
be successful, do these following steps. And one of the
things that you consistently see in there is making a
list of the things you're going to do that day,
and you check them off as you go through it,
(17:55):
and it keeps you focus on a task, It keeps
you orient it to the direction that you want to go,
which is success hopefully, and it holds you accountable throughout
the day. I got ten points that I'm going to
accomplish today. I'm getting this one, this one, this one,
this one, this one, this one knocked out. You know,
(18:18):
for every positive image, there's a negative image. You think
about this list that they have acquired, Dave to the
negative here when it comes to Hureman. I wonder how
long they've been in possession of this thing, because Dave,
(18:38):
I don't know if you're if you like pirate movies.
My friend the history guy that I watch his stuff
on YouTube all the time. He says, he says, all
great stories involve historical pirates.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
This is like a pirate map. It's almost like a trail,
you know, where you can follow what he's doing. And
it is. It's the stuff that of nightmares. It certainly is.
And I wonder how long they've had it.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
I wonder how long how long they were putting this
case together, Joe, because I mentioned earlier you and I've
covered this a lot over the last several years. This
story was because of a couple of things we had.
Now you mentioned how Huberman kind of crossed over a
(19:32):
time when we didn't here they have cell phones, and
we certainly didn't have security at our house, like ring doorbells.
And now if you drive down my street, chances are
somebody we're gonna be able to track you from the
top of the hill down to the bottom and know
which house you went into it and what time you left,
even if it's in the middle of the night and
nobody's awake. But when he started, it was just like
when we were kids, you know, and the lights go
(19:53):
out and the kids go home. And so I'm curious
with regard to the police and how they were able
to pull it all together, because we have had out
there at Ylgo Beach. The They've applied a couple of
different names to that, the Long Island serial killer, the
Gilgo Beach killer, because it didn't appear to be one person.
(20:15):
It appeared that there was more than one person using
this area.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
I'm the defense of them, David. I got to say,
I don't think that anybody, anybody in the right mind
would think we've had this much butchery going on over
this period of time, and it's at the hand of
a singular person, right, I mean, you know who, you know.
You think that there's like a hit squad that's out there,
you know, But but who's going to go out? And
(20:41):
I think every single and this is a key that
was found on the list, Dave. I think it was
the term small or petite, and he makes reference this
is good, right, and I'm paraphrasing that, but I'm just
kind of talking about this off the top of my
head that what's being implied here is that the smaller
the victim, the better it is for him in order
(21:03):
to manage them. And that sort of thing where he's
identified this.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
He wrote these things down just like a shopping list,
you know, of what you need to if you were
describing what am I going to coach the kids today
in a little league at football?
Speaker 1 (21:14):
What have you? Soccer?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
And we need to learn defensive offense, we need to
learn certain plays. That's how his mind worked. Only his
game was death. His game was destruction of a human
body and getting his jollys in any way he felt
like he could. It was a mesmerizing thing. But take
a look at this some of the items recovered from
Yureman's home. Fifteen different types of cameras, twenty seven computers.
(21:40):
I want to point out, Joe, these were items recovered
from his home, not his office. When I first looked
at this list, I thought this was the accumulative list
of all the things they had found, because he does
have an office in Manhattan. He's got an architect's office,
so uh, this is from his The man had twenty
seven computers in his home, Joe, he had over thirty
(22:03):
hard drives, forty six cell phones, nine routers, seventeen tablets
to forty two USB drives, eight laptops again, twenty seven computers,
eight laptops, seventeen tablets. These are all things that get online.
(22:24):
Not to mention the for the forty six cell phones,
you've got fifteen hotel cards for GPS, thirty six SIM cards,
and six one hundred and forty CD floppy discs and tapes.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
I like how you put floppy disc in question all caps, Yeah,
question mark, question mark, exclamation port.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
What the heck? Six hundred and forty Yeah, I don't
think I've ever owned that many in my life.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
No, Well, in particular focus on floppy discs for a second.
You're in the wayback machine, now, yeah, yeah, exactly. You know,
when you're still using a cartridge like that. Uh and
I know that a computer person will get me on that,
but you know a disc that you're having to insert,
and he had there's data contained on there how far back?
(23:17):
And you know, and then you begin to think about,
you know, what's contained in all this and with with
the serial perpetrators like this, it's not just a matter
of butchering these women, which he did, and we can
get into that allegedly you know where he's taking them
(23:38):
apart in order, you would think, seemingly to dispose the bodies.
We've talked about this before in our in our long
in our in our long continuing conversation regarding dismemberments in
our country. You begin to think about, well, was he
dismembering them to facilitate easy disposal or was it something else?
(24:02):
And we'll come back to that in a moment. But
just I can't I don't know that I can begin
to try to appreciate what's contained on just those drives
where he's saving these things, which is amazing to me,
and There's one more thing that's really troubling that I
(24:23):
think that it's really foolish for him to have retained
if he is involved in all of this, the hotel cards.
For years, they've told us, once you get a hotel card,
don't give it back to the desk. Take it, cut
it up, you know, take it apart, because that thing
has information on there relative to you and your stay there.
(24:46):
So and I wonder, well, I don't really know a
lot about computer forensics or digital forensics, but I'm really
wondering could he have held on to those and that
would put him in a specific location, even if he's
under unassumed name, where he's trying to ghost somebody out
there and bringing in one of these women to that location,
(25:10):
maybe approximating at the same time they disappeared. Those cards
in and of themselves, I think are going to have
some level of value to them.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
I'm freaking out now, Joe, because it never occurred to
me about the car. I kind of just thought, why
does he have those? But I didn't think about it
that when we were just at crime con. Yeah, and
all the information that was taken him by my card,
I didn't realize I need to go find what I
(25:39):
did with those and cut him up. Yeah, all right,
but getting back to this really quickly, there was something.
Every time we peeled this onion, it's getting bigger, not smallways.
Every layer opens up ten more. Now, one of the
things that we mentioned briefly because we had been told
it was there, and it's a document that was just
(26:00):
covered on a laptop, and it's a word document that
goes back to two thousand, the year two thousand, nearly
a quarter of a century ago. Now think about this
for just a minute. In two thousand, what were you doing,
where were you working, who were you involved with? How
old were your children? Because at that time rex Huerman
(26:27):
was writing his planning document and by the way, he
not only began it in two thousand, but he overwrote
the same document multiple times, which, by the way, they
are now methodically breaking down this is where, yeah, they're
pulling it apart because it actually plans his kills. It
(26:47):
plans from the acquisition of the individual to their until
their demise.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
And he uses and he's gone to great links to
use like little abbreviations like I think TA perhaps for target.
He's got DS oh my gosh, which is they believe
use as an abbreviation for dump site. Just think about
just the planning that goes into to that. I don't know,
(27:16):
but you know, just like I was saying a minute
ago that every you know that there's a positive and
a negative to decide. You know what, You know what
this is kind of it's kind of mirroring the activity
that I would do on scene as an investigator, only
only in the reverse where he's planning this thing out.
(27:37):
If you're a really good investigator. And I'm not saying
I was ever the best, I'm not, but I know
that what kept me on the straight and earraw or list,
we did have checklists. Now, I wrote narrative reports and
all this sort of thing, but there were certain things,
tasks that I had to accomplish because if I failed
one of those tasks, there was a dependent upon the
(27:59):
way given to that individual task that I had to do,
there was some probability that I could destroy the entire case. Well,
think about him, what he's doing with all of this
detailed listing of everything. He's thinking, well, my end goal
is to do this and not get caught at it.
And he even goes into some length about what he
(28:21):
has to dispose of when when you're thinking about well,
first off, he mentions gloves and also the burning of
the gloves. So he's got to get rid of this.
He's got to get rid of the file. What does
that mean? So is he keeping an individual file on
eat a heart, like a hard file on each one
of these individuals, and he's talking about getting rid of it.
(28:42):
And there's a number of other things like this. So
when you begin, this guy is far from disorganized in
his behavior. I think that you would you would agree
this is not like some guy that's running down the
street with an axe in his hand and just randomly
striking people. No, this is a guy that is actually
planning this out over a protracted period of time. And
(29:03):
that's kind of obvious to say. But you know, this
document that we have been provided with, not only is
it a roadmap but as to how he might have
gone about these things, maybe geographically, but it also it
gives you insight, you know, into his mind, which I
think is horrific for everybody involved. Dave Well.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
According to court documents, Joe this person rex Huerman, had
a significant collection of violent bondage, torture pornography dating back
to the early nineties, dating back to nineteen ninety four, Joe, Right,
(29:49):
we're talking three decades ago. Yeah, thirty years ago, this
man already had devolved into a guy that is consumed
with violent sexual torture. And we know there are some
unidentified murder victims dating back to this time. Is it possible,
(30:14):
Joseph Scott Morgan that not only did they find a
man that could have committed the murders of the women
found at Gilgo, that now they have found somebody that
could have been killing for thirty years and didn't stop.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
My lord, my lord, Yeah, you're right. I mean that
could very well be the case. And again, this is
almost like a cookbook for him, where he's moving through
this very methodically, and he's you know, there's two there's
two schools of thought on this. The longer you do it,
the better you get at it. And then the flip
(30:50):
side of that is, the longer you do it, the
more sloppy you get because you get used to doing it,
you don't think about the little things anymore. It seems
like maybe he had an awareness of that because he's
trying to anticipate things what he could not have anticipated, though, Dave,
is a bit of a shocker here in this document.
(31:15):
There is a witness that is identified only as Witness
number three, as far as a contributor of hair, which
is going to be a tie back that's found on
one of the victims. And here's the thing about it, Dave,
when we're talking about time, this individual, Witness number three,
(31:40):
is apparently not in a member of his current family.
This person, this hair may have originated from his ex
wife that had also been domiciled there. And we're talking
years and year, years and years ago. The tale will
(32:03):
still be told. But the fact that you find this
one strand of hair associated with one of these poor
women that was butchered really gives you an idea in
a sense of time. David, this is a this is
(32:40):
kind of an interesting little observation on my part. Did
you know that I think maybe during my career I
may have been summoned to a scene where someone found
(33:00):
a skeletal remnant and it turned out to be human.
And I'm talking about the average citizen just out in
their yard. That may have happened where it was legitimately
a human remain maybe a total of three times twenty
plus years. Because you get calls from bones all the time,
(33:23):
and the police don't know what to do other than
to call the medical examiner. So we'll come out to
the scene. The line shares of the time when we
get out there, that representative of a mortal remain a
bone most of the time, particularly down here in the South.
It turned out to be a hogbone because somebody had
been barbecuing and they discarded it in the yard, and
(33:44):
you could go on you could see the spiral spiral
markings on it where the spiral saw had cut it,
and they had been butchered, and they're stumpy. But you know,
to the average person. But to the average person when
they come across a bone, and their default position many
times is oh lord, well yeah, they're thinking. And what
(34:06):
they're thinking is if this is in fact the human
remain I want somebody to know about it, and I
don't know anything about the bones. And bone anatomy is hard.
It's really hard, particularly when you're doing comparative bone anatomy.
You know you're talking about a cow, a pig versus
a human. It can get very very confusing. I still
have a hard time with it, even after all these years.
(34:27):
But Dave I got to tell you, man, you could
have knocked me off my chair the other day with
a feather when I found out that the second visit
involved personnel from the Medical Examiner's office. And you'd ask
me about this, and I, you know, and I think
I flatly told you. First off, the cops they don't
(34:48):
want us in a way most of the time, you
know they don't. I mean, if they're working a scene,
and I understand that they want their space in order
to document everything. They got to have a reason to
call us out there. They have to. And the fact
that the showed up out there, I think is kind
of a tell on my end. I just don't know
(35:10):
what they've recovered.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Incredibly. I hate using terms like this when we're talking
about human beings who have been massacred by this alleged person.
But it's a fascinating tell that the Emmy was out there.
You mentioned to me, you know they remember they did
have the Emmy show up at the story heat. Yeah,
And I remember you and I were on the phone
that day going, hey, did you know, And it was like,
(35:33):
holy mug, because they had they brought out the blackout
sheets for that one. So no tell what they were doing,
and we didn't know about this search until after it
had been done, and it was a couple of weeks
after the fact before we even knew that they'd been there.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Oh, by the way, if you're holding your breath for
the Emmy to tell you something, it's not going to happen.
They're inside the investigative bubble and they're not going to
say peep. I would be very surprised, very so, you know.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
And that's why, you know, when you and I were
talking about this, there had to be a well, hey,
they had to have a reason to go back in
because they had gone through this house, they had been
all through it, and now to go back again. You
have to remember that we do have a thing called
the Constitution. We also have a right to privacy. We
(36:22):
have certain rights that they're not allowed to just come
in and start.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Looking a reduction against unlawful surgencies.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
They can't walk down the street and say I don't
like Dave, I don't like I'm going in. I'm going
to find something. They can't do that. And even when
you've got a person that is being held based on
the evidence they've collected so far, he's still not guilty,
but hey, we got enough to hold this guy. You
still have to prove why you're going back into a
house that's being lived in by three other people who
(36:49):
are not accused of any wrongdoing none.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Yeah, they're not. And isn't it weird how you know
that those those bits of human remnant, if you will,
that is the hair of his wife, possibly his daughter, himself,
this unknown other person that they are saying might be
his ex wife. That is a tell because it's an approximation, right,
(37:15):
you know, and listen for every one of those hairs
that you get, you got to do the math. That's
exponential math. What's the probability that those groups, that group
of people that were domiciled at that address, what are
the chances that their hair is going to randomly find
up be found on the body of an individual that
(37:39):
has been mutilated and butchered and discarded, you know, a
few miles from the home. And it's not just happening
once Dave, Okay, So, and again, the bigger that number gets,
the less likelihood that it's going to be some kind
of randomized thing. Now, the defense is going to argue
in the opposite of that, But.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
I would I would say, you know what, Joe, if
you walked through my house and you and Kim come
over for dinner, when you go back home, you're gonna
have hair for me, my wife, my kids, my grandkids,
my dogs, you know. And if you go out and
commit a crime, they're gonna say, Dave mac came through
here with his whole family and did this, you know.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Right, Yeah, lacrt's principle. Man, every contact leaves a trace,
and we come back to that all the time.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
You went apply to Hreman, then Joe I would apply
it to him and his family.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Oh oh, it's it's beautifully there's a beautiful symmetry to it,
I think when it comes to the card, because you
know that what that would mean is that these victims
would have had to have been in a specific structure
or vehicle that would have contained those particular samples that
(38:53):
are specifically biologically identifiable and they don't belong to the victim. Okay,
so what are those locations? Well, car house, all right,
and you maybe maybe the office potentially. I don't you know,
I don't know if if these women would have ever
(39:16):
walked into an architectural firm in Manhattan. I have no idea. However,
I guess a sharp defense attorney could say, well, you know,
we have to consider all things. Maybe that's the case,
but the biological evidence here is going to be so overwhelming,
and it sounds as though they're dealing with matochondrial DNA.
(39:36):
But that's that Again, that's the beauty of science, Dave,
Because yeah, it would be great to have like nuclear
nuclear DNA, where you know, you had the root ball
and all these sorts of things from here. But this
is the beauty of it. That hair can tell I mean,
that mitochondrial DNA that can be teased out of that
hair shaft. Dave, that that thing is like it's sitting
(39:58):
in a steel briefcase for all these it hasn't degraded.
What's fascinating, Dave, is that Jessica Taylor, her remains were
discarded one of these hairs that is associated with individuals
that are domiciled at the Hueerman Home. That hair is
(40:22):
associated with that group of people. It's found on her
and guess where it's found They It's found on her
back overlying she is lying on a surgical drape. Now, Dave,
let me tell you something, brother, I've been around I've
been around I've been around medicine for a long long
time now, and there are certain reasons that medical drapes
(40:45):
are used. Well, first off, if they're sterile, they're they
further enhance the sterile environment. Right, there's a certain level
of absorption that comes with this thing. Well would what
in the world would they be absorbing? I don't know.
Let's put two and two together. You've got a drape,
(41:06):
it's absorbent, and you're doing surgery. You're opening a body.
What happens when the body bleeds, It goes everywhere you
want to absorb it. You have to keep the area clean. Okay,
Amazon wasn't around in nineteen ninety four, ninety six, you know,
in a robust man, you know the way we have
it now where you can just order something. It was
(41:29):
not easy acquiring surgical drapes. So if you have that,
that gives me the idea that perhaps if they have
found something in that basement and it was a dare
I say, a torture chamber, you're going to have biological elements,
human elements associated with bodies. Is that why they call
(41:53):
the medical examiner out there? I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and
this is body backs SWO
There's nothing really significant about the name Bernice Borden. Probably
most people outside of the realm of maybe true crime
nerds would actually know that name. But let me tell
you about Bernice Warden. Bernice Warden was a store owner
(00:30):
in a little out of the way place in the
Upper Midwest and Wisconsin, specifically called Plainfield. You know, the
name of that town kind of common in and of itself,
Like Bernice's name is not something that would really make
you stand up and take notice. But what happened in Plainfield, Wisconsin,
(00:58):
back in the fifties rock the world at that moment, Tom,
because that's where another person lived by the name of
ed Geen. Now, the way Bernice plays into what I'm
trying to tell you is that she was actually the
last victim of ed Geen, and when she was discovered
(01:20):
by the police, she was hanging by her feet and
what's referred to as the deershed on ed Gean's property.
She had been eviscerated and beheaded. You said, Morgan, why
are you talking about this right now? Well, here's the reason.
(01:42):
Because in order to suspend Benice Borden's body within a
fixed structure, you have to have something called a hard point.
And in today's discussion, we're going to talk about some
documents that were covered allegedly by the police at the
(02:03):
home and within the electronic devices of rex Huremant. And
guess what the term hard point is mentioned in those
documents as well. I am Joseph Scott Morgan and this
is body bags. Well, Dave, here we sit where I
(02:30):
don't know how many days ago I guess roughly seven
maybe seven days five five seven days ago when these
documents were released by the prosecutor's office.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Great Tierney, Yeah, journey is all about getting this information
out to the boy he is.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
He wants everybody to hear it. I mean, and look,
it's it's been a long time coming. And listen, let
me a word of warning here, be very careful out
there in the general public for people that want knowledge
about this case, be very very careful of what you're
asking about this.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I think I had combat pay coming after this horrible.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah, it is horrible when when you think about, you know,
the alleged depravity here. And can I go back to
that term real quick hard point. I did a little
digging in addition to having at least some peripheral experience
with field dressing animals, and certainly my experience of working
(03:42):
in the morgue. You know, my Papa used to refer
to the skinning, the cleaning or field dressing of a
deer as trusting a deer up. And that's that's what
he would and he trusts hogs up and all that
sort of stuff. The fact that there are also practices
(04:05):
out there in the world in which we dwell involving
certain sexual practices that involve hard points, that is, where
people are involved in things like bondage and suspension. And
I didn't realize that suspension is it is a complete
(04:26):
and total compartmentalized sexual practice, if you will, and it
bends toward toward BDSM, torture, simulated torture, those sorts of things.
Control is what it comes down to. And we hear
(04:46):
that again. Here's that word again. I always use. It's
kind of wrote at this point, but yeah, control And
the fact that rex Huermann allegedly has annotate that word
in these notes. Now keep in mind he's an architect too,
but and you would think that he would be familiar
(05:09):
with building terms like that, because there are, in fact,
if you have a huge vaulted ceiling. Perhaps you have
a hard point hard point contact up there you're going
to suspend something from like maybe a big chandelier. But Dave,
I gotta tell you, I don't think this is in
reference to suspension of lighting fixtures in a home.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
You know, the thing that we deal with with Rex
Huerman Joe. And it goes back to why the Suffolk
County DA Ray Tierney has been very public with the findings.
It's not so much that it's salacious and gets in
boats or money or whatever. It's because there is so
much And I was thinking about this after we did
(05:51):
the the episode last week covering that there have been
another search warrant executed and this is what they found
because we did a pretty big overview and he was
charged with two additional murders. So now it's not the
gill Go four, it's the gilg six. And now we
have another a dumping ground as well. So what they're doing,
(06:14):
the Prosecutor's Office is doing, I believe, disseminating information to
the public so that it is not like Nancy Gray
says on the show, drinking out of a fire hose,
that people can actually get the information and realize what
we're dealing with here is a real mentally disturbed, psychological
(06:37):
serial murderer that may have been capable of doing all
the murders or just the ones he's charged with in
terms of Gilgo Beach and beyond.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Hey, let me let me ask you a question real quick, David.
You know, with my background in forensics and be an
investigator and now a professor of forensics at Jacksonville State,
do you know that I've been disqualified from jury duty
(07:10):
on multiple occasions, and because I'd always get called I'd
always get called up on some kind of criminal thing,
you know. I always want to serve on a jury.
I was like, look, just give me a divorce case.
I don't care. I just want to be on a
jury to say that I've been on a jury all
right now. I know people are grimacing probably out there,
but look, I think it's a great It's one of
the privileges, okay, that we have as Americans, and I'd
(07:33):
always wanted to do it, but you know, fortune hasn't
shined on me at this point. However, I want to
ask you this question, what what do you think? What
do you think about the release of this volume of information,
this kind of detailed information. If if in fact you
(07:55):
were a resident of that area and you were potentially
in that juror pool, that pool of potential jurors, do
you do you think you know it was a citizen?
Do you with that Inflo? Are you going? I mean,
if you live up there, I would assume you're going
to go to your new source and and look at this?
Is it hard? I mean we've heard this, not just
(08:17):
with this, but you know, Idaho has been talked about
extensively relatively how many.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Big crimes are coming out of that area of the
country right now? Joe, think about it. I didn't even
know where Moscow, Idaho is. I didn't know where Washington
State was in Poland. I mean, I didn't know this.
And now we've got right now, we've got a student
at Washington State that was going through Moscow and the
pullman that they took off with the child. You know,
we've got a you know, we've there are all kinds
of crazy crimes taking place in that in that area
(08:45):
right now, right right and before that, you know, what
do we have? We had Ballo and Davel But as
you mentioned with this one with Rex Huerman, I wonder
what value it has to release so much information all
this early on in the investigative process, because if you're
a potential jury, if you're going to be seated, is
(09:07):
it a warning salvo of all of the stuff you're
going to deal with?
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Or Wow, I hadn't thought about that, but you know,
because you know, when you were first speaking in our
in kind of our open there, you had mentioned kind
of letting this out, you know, use the the you
know the comment they always you know, drinking of a
fire hose, Dave dripp, slow down, You're just this this
(09:32):
is essentially drip grip. Yeah. It really makes me wonder
because there's other people that have also wondered this. How
many more? Yeah? And I think that that, Oh my lord,
you and I.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Had many others that we have relationships with in this
world of crime news reporting, and you even on a
different level from an investigation standpoint, Joe, there is no
way this man killed for a brief period of time
and dumped in that one. And they're proving it now.
They're absolutely laying it out there. He didn't just kill
(10:09):
between twenty ten and twenty thirteen and the bodies of
found ten years later or or you know, just that
thea that he has been out at ten years later,
we now were going back to the early nineties, and
I think they're laying this out there so people can
start to absorb the fact that this guy was killing
for decades, and I think they might have the look
we're looking. Well, we'll break it down in a minute,
(10:30):
but right right, Joe, let me ask you this because
you sent this to me after we did the last show.
You and Kim were talking about it, and you had
three major things and I got to ask you about
this because number one, what compelled the police to go
back to the scene. It's not like they didn't already
go through rex Hueman's house and we saw because remember
(10:51):
the attorney's posted pictures of the damage left behind by
the police. And I'm thinking that that really ticked me
off because I'm thinking, what about the families who have
missing loved ones that this guy was the last person
known to be with them, And you're worried about your
sink being torn up. They're looking for my loved ones,
part of her tooth. Okay, that's what they're trying to
(11:12):
find in your home right now. But anyway, this is
a home that his wife. His children still occupy. The
adult children, one I think is special needs, but they
have a daughter that's not special needs. Two adult children,
and they're in this home that you described as quite
a bit of a dump compared to the other houses
in the neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Oh my lord. Yeah. And it's not a this is
not just so that people, you know, because standing there
in like real time, deserving this place. It's a it's
just kind of a standard ranch, you know, like a
sixty style ranch home. And you know, when you begin
to discuss or consider the police going back out there, right,
(11:57):
what other whatether the locations are you sifting through out there?
And also, this is another thing that I've wondered, Dave.
And the other day we were on one episode, forgive me,
I can't remember which one, but we were actually discussing
I don't know if it was with you, No, I
can't recall they it piles up after a while, but
we were talking about getting warrants to search locations because
(12:22):
even if they're even if you've got a dead body
in the house, once you've established a person is dead,
you have to back out of the house, wait for
a warrant, and then come back, Dave, do you think
do you think they got in there? Initially began and
in their warrant it did not include certain areas or
(12:45):
certain things in that house. And they went back to
a magistrate or someone and said, you know what, we
need to detail this out a little more and perhaps
make this warrant a bit a bit more robust. And
that was just the initial thought that I had. Are
(13:08):
they still working on the initial warrant where they had
listed all of these things that places that were going
to search, things that were going to search for. And
the thing about things you're going to search for in
a warrant, you never know what you're going to find,
you know, ergo, that's the purpose of a warrant. You know,
you suspect that things are going to be there.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Most of you listening are crime sophisticated. You followed crimes
and you know how they roll out. But a lot
of people don't realize until recently from shows like ours,
what a search warrant does, what it tells people like
you and me, because when they become public, we can
look at what the police what they're thinking is what
the investigators have found that leads them to believe other
(13:45):
evidence will be found in this location, which is what
you're making the point of what did they find that
they couldn't do anything with last time, Because as you say,
it's that fruit of the poison tree. If while they're
in there they see something in the corner that they
didn't expect to see, didn't know was there, they cannot
(14:05):
remove it. They've got to leave it sitting there and
pray that they can get a warrant to go back
and hope that the people living in this house don't
find it and remove it. Remove it first. There's a
lot of gamesmanship that goes into this.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Oh there is, there is, and there's there's so many
court cases that are out there day we go from
every semester in my class is relative to evidence, and
you know that. Here's the thing is that when you
you can, you have to have a plan before you
walk through that door. Because you mentioned this idea of
(14:38):
the fruit of the poison tree, and there's a number
of ways that can be interpreted. But I love the
term hidden spaces. So if if you get into a
location and a hidden particular space is not accounted for,
like maybe something that's behind a retaining wall that was
hidden a burial space, a rat hole and rat holes
(14:59):
of general line term that we used many times to
talk about people that we will store things away, particularly
when it comes to serial perpetrators, so they can go
back and relive these events vividly. They're holding on to
these items, and there might be an indication that he
was a collector in a sense, but the thoroughness of
(15:20):
his list that he created, and I know it sound
like I'm bouncing all over the board, but I got
to tell you this kind of drawing the curtain down
on the segment. I was on air two nights ago
with doctor Gary Briccado. And I don't know if you
know Gary or not, Dave, but he's he is a
(15:42):
forensic psychiatrist or a psychologist and very bright dude. I've
been on with him a lot on Core TV. And
you know, he said something really striking. He was like
in a segment before me and I was sitting there
and you sit there in front of the monitor, you
got your earpiece and you're just waiting, you know, you're
waiting for your turn. And I was sitting there listening
(16:03):
to Gary talk and Gary said that he said, you know,
Hureman a paraphrasing Hureman is almost something from the past.
He said, when he started allegedly all those years ago,
there wasn't there weren't phones, there was no surveillance. There,
(16:29):
there was very little CCTV, and if you did have it,
it didn't work and you had to go to very
specific locations for that. He started allegedly in that world,
and he kind of straddled time here where we were
at the end with all of those infamous serial killers
(16:50):
that came out of the seventies and the eighties that
were in not so technologically sophisticated times, and all of
a sudden he breached over into the modern era. And
it did interesting the tools that we now possess might
lead to a conviction of a case that occurred decades
(17:11):
and decades ago. I watch all of these things that
you see in Instagram, these little reels I think they're called,
(17:35):
where they'll have these, you know, these kind of life
advice things. There's always things like what the stoics said
about life, and then there's things if you want to
be successful, do these following steps. And one of the
things that you consistently see in there is making a
list of the things you're going to do that day,
and you check them off as you go through it,
(17:55):
and it keeps you focus on a task, It keeps
you orient it to the direction that you want to go,
which is success hopefully, and it holds you accountable throughout
the day. I got ten points that I'm going to
accomplish today. I'm getting this one, this one, this one,
this one, this one, this one knocked out. You know,
(18:18):
for every positive image, there's a negative image. You think
about this list that they have acquired, Dave to the
negative here when it comes to Hureman. I wonder how
long they've been in possession of this thing, because Dave,
(18:38):
I don't know if you're if you like pirate movies.
My friend the history guy that I watch his stuff
on YouTube all the time. He says, he says, all
great stories involve historical pirates.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
This is like a pirate map. It's almost like a trail,
you know, where you can follow what he's doing. And
it is. It's the stuff that of nightmares. It certainly is.
And I wonder how long they've had it.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
I wonder how long how long they were putting this
case together, Joe, because I mentioned earlier you and I've
covered this a lot over the last several years. This
story was because of a couple of things we had.
Now you mentioned how Huberman kind of crossed over a
(19:32):
time when we didn't here they have cell phones, and
we certainly didn't have security at our house, like ring doorbells.
And now if you drive down my street, chances are
somebody we're gonna be able to track you from the
top of the hill down to the bottom and know
which house you went into it and what time you left,
even if it's in the middle of the night and
nobody's awake. But when he started, it was just like
when we were kids, you know, and the lights go
(19:53):
out and the kids go home. And so I'm curious
with regard to the police and how they were able
to pull it all together, because we have had out
there at Ylgo Beach. The They've applied a couple of
different names to that, the Long Island serial killer, the
Gilgo Beach killer, because it didn't appear to be one person.
(20:15):
It appeared that there was more than one person using
this area.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
I'm the defense of them, David. I got to say,
I don't think that anybody, anybody in the right mind
would think we've had this much butchery going on over
this period of time, and it's at the hand of
a singular person, right, I mean, you know who, you know.
You think that there's like a hit squad that's out there,
you know, But but who's going to go out? And
(20:41):
I think every single and this is a key that
was found on the list, Dave. I think it was
the term small or petite, and he makes reference this
is good, right, and I'm paraphrasing that, but I'm just
kind of talking about this off the top of my
head that what's being implied here is that the smaller
the victim, the better it is for him in order
(21:03):
to manage them. And that sort of thing where he's
identified this.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
He wrote these things down just like a shopping list,
you know, of what you need to if you were
describing what am I going to coach the kids today
in a little league at football?
Speaker 1 (21:14):
What have you? Soccer?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
And we need to learn defensive offense, we need to
learn certain plays. That's how his mind worked. Only his
game was death. His game was destruction of a human
body and getting his jollys in any way he felt
like he could. It was a mesmerizing thing. But take
a look at this some of the items recovered from
Yureman's home. Fifteen different types of cameras, twenty seven computers.
(21:40):
I want to point out, Joe, these were items recovered
from his home, not his office. When I first looked
at this list, I thought this was the accumulative list
of all the things they had found, because he does
have an office in Manhattan. He's got an architect's office,
so uh, this is from his The man had twenty
seven computers in his home, Joe, he had over thirty
(22:03):
hard drives, forty six cell phones, nine routers, seventeen tablets
to forty two USB drives, eight laptops again, twenty seven computers,
eight laptops, seventeen tablets. These are all things that get online.
(22:24):
Not to mention the for the forty six cell phones,
you've got fifteen hotel cards for GPS, thirty six SIM cards,
and six one hundred and forty CD floppy discs and tapes.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
I like how you put floppy disc in question all caps, Yeah,
question mark, question mark, exclamation port.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
What the heck? Six hundred and forty Yeah, I don't
think I've ever owned that many in my life.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
No, Well, in particular focus on floppy discs for a second.
You're in the wayback machine, now, yeah, yeah, exactly. You know,
when you're still using a cartridge like that. Uh and
I know that a computer person will get me on that,
but you know a disc that you're having to insert,
and he had there's data contained on there how far back?
(23:17):
And you know, and then you begin to think about,
you know, what's contained in all this and with with
the serial perpetrators like this, it's not just a matter
of butchering these women, which he did, and we can
get into that allegedly you know where he's taking them
(23:38):
apart in order, you would think, seemingly to dispose the bodies.
We've talked about this before in our in our long
in our in our long continuing conversation regarding dismemberments in
our country. You begin to think about, well, was he
dismembering them to facilitate easy disposal or was it something else?
(24:02):
And we'll come back to that in a moment. But
just I can't I don't know that I can begin
to try to appreciate what's contained on just those drives
where he's saving these things, which is amazing to me,
and There's one more thing that's really troubling that I
(24:23):
think that it's really foolish for him to have retained
if he is involved in all of this, the hotel cards.
For years, they've told us, once you get a hotel card,
don't give it back to the desk. Take it, cut
it up, you know, take it apart, because that thing
has information on there relative to you and your stay there.
(24:46):
So and I wonder, well, I don't really know a
lot about computer forensics or digital forensics, but I'm really
wondering could he have held on to those and that
would put him in a specific location, even if he's
under unassumed name, where he's trying to ghost somebody out
there and bringing in one of these women to that location,
(25:10):
maybe approximating at the same time they disappeared. Those cards
in and of themselves, I think are going to have
some level of value to them.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
I'm freaking out now, Joe, because it never occurred to
me about the car. I kind of just thought, why
does he have those? But I didn't think about it
that when we were just at crime con. Yeah, and
all the information that was taken him by my card,
I didn't realize I need to go find what I
(25:39):
did with those and cut him up. Yeah, all right,
but getting back to this really quickly, there was something.
Every time we peeled this onion, it's getting bigger, not smallways.
Every layer opens up ten more. Now, one of the
things that we mentioned briefly because we had been told
it was there, and it's a document that was just
(26:00):
covered on a laptop, and it's a word document that
goes back to two thousand, the year two thousand, nearly
a quarter of a century ago. Now think about this
for just a minute. In two thousand, what were you doing,
where were you working, who were you involved with? How
old were your children? Because at that time rex Huerman
(26:27):
was writing his planning document and by the way, he
not only began it in two thousand, but he overwrote
the same document multiple times, which, by the way, they
are now methodically breaking down this is where, yeah, they're
pulling it apart because it actually plans his kills. It
(26:47):
plans from the acquisition of the individual to their until
their demise.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
And he uses and he's gone to great links to
use like little abbreviations like I think TA perhaps for target.
He's got DS oh my gosh, which is they believe
use as an abbreviation for dump site. Just think about
just the planning that goes into to that. I don't know,
(27:16):
but you know, just like I was saying a minute
ago that every you know that there's a positive and
a negative to decide. You know what, You know what
this is kind of it's kind of mirroring the activity
that I would do on scene as an investigator, only
only in the reverse where he's planning this thing out.
(27:37):
If you're a really good investigator. And I'm not saying
I was ever the best, I'm not, but I know
that what kept me on the straight and earraw or list,
we did have checklists. Now, I wrote narrative reports and
all this sort of thing, but there were certain things,
tasks that I had to accomplish because if I failed
one of those tasks, there was a dependent upon the
(27:59):
way given to that individual task that I had to do,
there was some probability that I could destroy the entire case. Well,
think about him, what he's doing with all of this
detailed listing of everything. He's thinking, well, my end goal
is to do this and not get caught at it.
And he even goes into some length about what he
(28:21):
has to dispose of when when you're thinking about well,
first off, he mentions gloves and also the burning of
the gloves. So he's got to get rid of this.
He's got to get rid of the file. What does
that mean? So is he keeping an individual file on
eat a heart, like a hard file on each one
of these individuals, and he's talking about getting rid of it.
(28:42):
And there's a number of other things like this. So
when you begin, this guy is far from disorganized in
his behavior. I think that you would you would agree
this is not like some guy that's running down the
street with an axe in his hand and just randomly
striking people. No, this is a guy that is actually
planning this out over a protracted period of time. And
(29:03):
that's kind of obvious to say. But you know, this
document that we have been provided with, not only is
it a roadmap but as to how he might have
gone about these things, maybe geographically, but it also it
gives you insight, you know, into his mind, which I
think is horrific for everybody involved. Dave Well.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
According to court documents, Joe this person rex Huerman, had
a significant collection of violent bondage, torture pornography dating back
to the early nineties, dating back to nineteen ninety four, Joe, Right,
(29:49):
we're talking three decades ago. Yeah, thirty years ago, this
man already had devolved into a guy that is consumed
with violent sexual torture. And we know there are some
unidentified murder victims dating back to this time. Is it possible,
(30:14):
Joseph Scott Morgan that not only did they find a
man that could have committed the murders of the women
found at Gilgo, that now they have found somebody that
could have been killing for thirty years and didn't stop.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
My lord, my lord, Yeah, you're right. I mean that
could very well be the case. And again, this is
almost like a cookbook for him, where he's moving through
this very methodically, and he's you know, there's two there's
two schools of thought on this. The longer you do it,
the better you get at it. And then the flip
(30:50):
side of that is, the longer you do it, the
more sloppy you get because you get used to doing it,
you don't think about the little things anymore. It seems
like maybe he had an awareness of that because he's
trying to anticipate things what he could not have anticipated, though, Dave,
is a bit of a shocker here in this document.
(31:15):
There is a witness that is identified only as Witness
number three, as far as a contributor of hair, which
is going to be a tie back that's found on
one of the victims. And here's the thing about it, Dave,
when we're talking about time, this individual, Witness number three,
(31:40):
is apparently not in a member of his current family.
This person, this hair may have originated from his ex
wife that had also been domiciled there. And we're talking
years and year, years and years ago. The tale will
(32:03):
still be told. But the fact that you find this
one strand of hair associated with one of these poor
women that was butchered really gives you an idea in
a sense of time. David, this is a this is
(32:40):
kind of an interesting little observation on my part. Did
you know that I think maybe during my career I
may have been summoned to a scene where someone found
(33:00):
a skeletal remnant and it turned out to be human.
And I'm talking about the average citizen just out in
their yard. That may have happened where it was legitimately
a human remain maybe a total of three times twenty
plus years. Because you get calls from bones all the time,
(33:23):
and the police don't know what to do other than
to call the medical examiner. So we'll come out to
the scene. The line shares of the time when we
get out there, that representative of a mortal remain a
bone most of the time, particularly down here in the South.
It turned out to be a hogbone because somebody had
been barbecuing and they discarded it in the yard, and
(33:44):
you could go on you could see the spiral spiral
markings on it where the spiral saw had cut it,
and they had been butchered, and they're stumpy. But you know,
to the average person. But to the average person when
they come across a bone, and their default position many
times is oh lord, well yeah, they're thinking. And what
(34:06):
they're thinking is if this is in fact the human
remain I want somebody to know about it, and I
don't know anything about the bones. And bone anatomy is hard.
It's really hard, particularly when you're doing comparative bone anatomy.
You know you're talking about a cow, a pig versus
a human. It can get very very confusing. I still
have a hard time with it, even after all these years.
(34:27):
But Dave I got to tell you, man, you could
have knocked me off my chair the other day with
a feather when I found out that the second visit
involved personnel from the Medical Examiner's office. And you'd ask
me about this, and I, you know, and I think
I flatly told you. First off, the cops they don't
(34:48):
want us in a way most of the time, you
know they don't. I mean, if they're working a scene,
and I understand that they want their space in order
to document everything. They got to have a reason to
call us out there. They have to. And the fact
that the showed up out there, I think is kind
of a tell on my end. I just don't know
(35:10):
what they've recovered.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Incredibly. I hate using terms like this when we're talking
about human beings who have been massacred by this alleged person.
But it's a fascinating tell that the Emmy was out there.
You mentioned to me, you know they remember they did
have the Emmy show up at the story heat. Yeah,
And I remember you and I were on the phone
that day going, hey, did you know, And it was like,
(35:33):
holy mug, because they had they brought out the blackout
sheets for that one. So no tell what they were doing,
and we didn't know about this search until after it
had been done, and it was a couple of weeks
after the fact before we even knew that they'd been there.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Oh, by the way, if you're holding your breath for
the Emmy to tell you something, it's not going to happen.
They're inside the investigative bubble and they're not going to
say peep. I would be very surprised, very so, you know.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
And that's why, you know, when you and I were
talking about this, there had to be a well, hey,
they had to have a reason to go back in
because they had gone through this house, they had been
all through it, and now to go back again. You
have to remember that we do have a thing called
the Constitution. We also have a right to privacy. We
(36:22):
have certain rights that they're not allowed to just come
in and start.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Looking a reduction against unlawful surgencies.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
They can't walk down the street and say I don't
like Dave, I don't like I'm going in. I'm going
to find something. They can't do that. And even when
you've got a person that is being held based on
the evidence they've collected so far, he's still not guilty,
but hey, we got enough to hold this guy. You
still have to prove why you're going back into a
house that's being lived in by three other people who
(36:49):
are not accused of any wrongdoing none.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Yeah, they're not. And isn't it weird how you know
that those those bits of human remnant, if you will,
that is the hair of his wife, possibly his daughter, himself,
this unknown other person that they are saying might be
his ex wife. That is a tell because it's an approximation, right,
(37:15):
you know, and listen for every one of those hairs
that you get, you got to do the math. That's
exponential math. What's the probability that those groups, that group
of people that were domiciled at that address, what are
the chances that their hair is going to randomly find
up be found on the body of an individual that
(37:39):
has been mutilated and butchered and discarded, you know, a
few miles from the home. And it's not just happening
once Dave, Okay, So, and again, the bigger that number gets,
the less likelihood that it's going to be some kind
of randomized thing. Now, the defense is going to argue
in the opposite of that, But.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
I would I would say, you know what, Joe, if
you walked through my house and you and Kim come
over for dinner, when you go back home, you're gonna
have hair for me, my wife, my kids, my grandkids,
my dogs, you know. And if you go out and
commit a crime, they're gonna say, Dave mac came through
here with his whole family and did this, you know.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Right, Yeah, lacrt's principle. Man, every contact leaves a trace,
and we come back to that all the time.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
You went apply to Hreman, then Joe I would apply
it to him and his family.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Oh oh, it's it's beautifully there's a beautiful symmetry to it,
I think when it comes to the card, because you
know that what that would mean is that these victims
would have had to have been in a specific structure
or vehicle that would have contained those particular samples that
(38:53):
are specifically biologically identifiable and they don't belong to the victim. Okay,
so what are those locations? Well, car house, all right,
and you maybe maybe the office potentially. I don't you know,
I don't know if if these women would have ever
(39:16):
walked into an architectural firm in Manhattan. I have no idea. However,
I guess a sharp defense attorney could say, well, you know,
we have to consider all things. Maybe that's the case,
but the biological evidence here is going to be so overwhelming,
and it sounds as though they're dealing with matochondrial DNA.
(39:36):
But that's that Again, that's the beauty of science, Dave,
Because yeah, it would be great to have like nuclear
nuclear DNA, where you know, you had the root ball
and all these sorts of things from here. But this
is the beauty of it. That hair can tell I mean,
that mitochondrial DNA that can be teased out of that
hair shaft. Dave, that that thing is like it's sitting
(39:58):
in a steel briefcase for all these it hasn't degraded.
What's fascinating, Dave, is that Jessica Taylor, her remains were
discarded one of these hairs that is associated with individuals
that are domiciled at the Hueerman Home. That hair is
(40:22):
associated with that group of people. It's found on her
and guess where it's found They It's found on her
back overlying she is lying on a surgical drape. Now, Dave,
let me tell you something, brother, I've been around I've
been around I've been around medicine for a long long
time now, and there are certain reasons that medical drapes
(40:45):
are used. Well, first off, if they're sterile, they're they
further enhance the sterile environment. Right, there's a certain level
of absorption that comes with this thing. Well would what
in the world would they be absorbing? I don't know.
Let's put two and two together. You've got a drape,
(41:06):
it's absorbent, and you're doing surgery. You're opening a body.
What happens when the body bleeds, It goes everywhere you
want to absorb it. You have to keep the area clean. Okay,
Amazon wasn't around in nineteen ninety four, ninety six, you know,
in a robust man, you know the way we have
it now where you can just order something. It was
(41:29):
not easy acquiring surgical drapes. So if you have that,
that gives me the idea that perhaps if they have
found something in that basement and it was a dare
I say, a torture chamber, you're going to have biological elements,
human elements associated with bodies. Is that why they call
(41:53):
the medical examiner out there? I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and
this is body backs SWO
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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