January 21, 2025 • 46 mins
Dylan Redwine is forced to spend Thanksgiving with his father in Colorado. He doesn't want to be there because he knows some things about his father, secret, disgusting things, and he just doesn't want to be around him. But due to his parent divorce he has to go. Dylan Redwine goes missing, his dad suggests a bear might have got him. It takes time, but in the end, Forensics will tell the entire story of what happened to Dylan Redwine.Join Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack as they break down a story that took years to finish and includes blood, sex, knives, and bones.
Time Code Highlights.
00:01:40 Redwine Murder was one of the first Joseph Scott Morgan covered in media
00:04:00 Dylan must go to his father’s house in Colorado for Thanksgiving
00:05:08 Mark Redwine house burned down previously
00:07:03 Discussion of children of divorce, Dylan did not want to be with his father
00:08:20 Talk about pictures Dylan and his brother saw on their dad’s computer
00:09:30 Joe talks the information he was given to cover story on network show
00:11:03 Pictures of Mark Redwine in lingerie, makeup, eating out of diaper
00:13:09 Joe tells story of being embarrassed comparing it to how Mark Redwine was embarrassed his children found out about secret pictures
00:15:00 Discussion about the boys confronting their father over his pictures
00:16:50 Talk about Mark Redwine responding to Corey about the pictures
00:19:25 Joe talks about Mark Redwine being humiliated and angry
00:20:45 Redwine claims he went to store, Dylan was gone when he got back
00:21:35 Discussion about Corey Redwine being several years older than Dylan
00:22:45 Talk about forensics and how nothing is ever hidden
00:24:04 Joe talks about a dog finding blood in the home
00:26:05 Blood from Dylan would have to have been from recent visit
00:30:04 Joe talks about a murder case without a body
00:31:00 Both femurs of Dylan Redwine found 8 miles from Mark Redwine home
00:32:43 Bones found on a road could have been drug by an animal
00:34:14 Determining whether the bones were separated by human using tools
00:36:05 Talk about Mark Redwine mentioning something to a friend about blunt force trauma and they would need to find his head
00:37:45 Dylan Redwine skull found
00:39:00 No animals in the area that would drag remains up the mountain
00:40:10 Talk about surface deposition
00:41:05 Mark Redwine said Dylan may have been attacked by a bear.
00:43:50 What the skull tells investigators. Took several months to identify
00:45:12 Joe explains using sinus for identification
00:46:45 Skull fractures show blunt force trauma. Two linear marks consistent with a knife blade found on skull.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. To lose someone whom
you love is one of the toughest things that a
(00:29):
human being will ever endure. I know that for a
fact because I've had loved ones that have passed on,
and I've also been present when I have had to
tell people that their loved ones have passed on. But
you know, some say that next to a death of
(00:55):
a loved one, that a divorce is one of the
most brutal things a human being can go through. You
tie a lot of emotion up in it because you
see perhaps a failure, you see an end to things
that you thought had great possibilities, and there it just
(01:19):
crumbles right before you. And of course the really sad
part is not necessarily going your own way from the
person that you thought you were going to spend the
rest of your life with. But if you have children,
they're left in the wake many times to be battered
(01:41):
up against the metaphorical rocks of life. Today, we're going
to talk about one such child. And this case is
special to me because it's a case that I covered
early on in my media and it impacted me, I
(02:02):
think probably like no other. Today we're going to talk
about the murder of Dylan red Wine. I'm Joseph Scott
Morgan and this is Body Packers, Dave. You know when
you're when you're a little boy, and you and I
(02:25):
used to be little boys. We spend our time playing
and having adventures, getting together with our friends, tossing the
ball around, some of the coolest times that you can experience.
But I know that for myself, I'm I am a
(02:46):
child of divorce. And you, yeah, and you pay a
price for it, don't you. I mean, it's not just
mom and dad that might pay a price, you know,
us kids that have been through it pay a price
as well. And sometimes those those things go unseen for
years and years, and they sometimes manifest themselves later on
in life.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
It's interesting how most children that grow up in a
nuclear home where divorce is not president. You just have mom,
dad and the kids, and all the children have different
stories to tell about their own upbringing based on the
when they were born, whether they're first born, middle last.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
And it's the same thing.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Happens when if you're a child of divorce, except now
you extend it out because whereas in a family that
is just mom, dad and the kids, they argue about
the attention they got, or mom loved you more, Dad
loved liked you more, of that whole thing. Well, now
it's expanded because now you've got mom and dad, plus
oftentimes they're extended spouses and other half brothers and half sisters.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
That it becomes a big fray.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
And some kids have a way of maneuvering through it
better than others.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, yeah, i'd agree you. And it's like a race
you're you're jocking for. I never know what validation actually means.
People use that term all the time. I never really
know what it is.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Oh, butocke Yeah, approval, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've always thought
of that. We all want to approval.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
We want it from our we want it from our
mom and dad first and foremost. And the fact, you
know what I wondered, Joan in this particular case, because
I've covered it too, when when it first began as
a missing person, what happened to this thirteen year old kid,
A thirteen year old boy, Dylan red Wine goes to
visit his dad. Now his mom and dad were divorced,
(04:32):
and Dylan did not want to go. That was made
pretty public fairly early in this whole case, but it
was Thanksgiving. He had to go there to be with
his dad for Thanksgiving. It was court ordered, so Dylan
red Wine went. He arrives at the airport in Colorado.
Dad picks him up. We have CCTV coverage. That's how
(04:53):
intense this case got. We saw him at Walmart, We
saw them at McDonald's. You don't see them being overly
warm with one another. There was a little distance while
they were walking, but you couldn't really see a whole lot.
But the bottom line always being the bottom line. Dylan
red Wine did reach out to a friend and was
going to meet him the next morning. Now he's at
(05:13):
dad's house. And one thing to point out, Mark RedWine,
the father. His home had burned about six months earlier,
and it had recently been remodeled, and this was the
first time that Dylan had really been there since it
had been remodeled. And that means something, by the way,
as we go further into this case, forensically speaking, So
(05:33):
Dylan red Wine is at this house. It wasn't unfamiliar territory.
He did have friends there and he called a friend.
He reached out to a friend in the evening and
they made plans for the next morning at six thirty am.
They were going to get to get now something thirteen
year old boys. Do you know when you're thirteen and
you've got the woods open area, you can get out
(05:55):
there and just I know I did it, but oh
that's an age, you know what as a man now,
I want to make sure. I wanted to make sure
my boys got it, and I want to make sure
my grandson gets it that there is something beautiful like
going out in the woods at thirteen and challenging yourself
to you know, what can you do.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
I'm in a tree trying trying to get back without
an open wound, bleeding.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Right, get in trouble. But you you're usually you have
a knife though, just in case.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, yeah, you have a knife. You're gonna you know,
you're gonna chop wood or yeah, uh, you know, do
some whittling, or you're going to play army.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Yeah. Just an adventure.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah, it is. It is a grand adventure. And you
you look at that and you think and and for
kids of divorce, that's uh, that's the ultimate Uh, that's
the ultimate fantasy world, isn't it. Because you can get
out there and you can.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
I never put that together, Joe, and you.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Can, Yeah, you can escape. You can escape from the
tension that's in the house. And interesting just kind of
a little here. I used to be. I used to
watch the show Inside the Actors Studio where the guy
would interview that James Lipton. He's passed on now, but
he would interview these actors and there was one thing
that he would always start off with in these interviews,
(07:14):
and he would say, we're going to come to a
common theme now that that is a thread that runs
through all of our guests. Here. You are a child
of divorce, and I would think about that and I thought, wow,
you know, where does some of this you know, because
I don't really know that many actors. I've got some
friends that are but not close friends, but you know,
(07:35):
you think about where do they get all this raw
emotion from and all these things? And I know as
a divorce kid, there is a lot of raw emotion.
There's a lot of stuff that you have to work out,
work through in your mind. And I don't know, maybe
some are you know, are drawn toward the toward the
theater because just for a moment, you can escape whatever
your perception of your reality is at that moment and
(07:57):
at Thanksgiving, imagine Dylan having to be away from the
safety of his home with his mother, where he wanted
to be, where he wanted to be.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
And it's joe interesting to point out not only did
he not want to be with his dad, the last
few times they had been together had been very tension filled,
to the point where Dylan no longer felt comfortable around
his dad. Plus, Dylan and Corey Corey is Dylan's brother,
they had found pictures on a computer of their dad. Yeah,
(08:35):
this divorce was already ugly, Okay, just throwing it out.
It was already ugly, and apparently Dylan and Corey both
had seen some legal documents that painted a very direct
picture of what was being claimed by their dad by
their mom. But it was the pictures they saw on
this computer that actually made them realize, this is not
a guy we want to be around. And Dylan did
(08:57):
not want to be there, and he had this in
the back of his head. And by the way, Mark
knew it.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
He knew it.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah, the father had a complete and total awareness. And
I just so you know, you know, I made reference
to how and I don't want to make this about me,
but just to kind of give you the background when
I was asked to cover this case, and I was actually,
you know, I cover cases on Court TV. I cover
(09:25):
cases on a Long Crime network, and I have friends
at both places whom I care for deeply, and I'll
be friends with many of them for life. They asked me,
Long Crime asked me to cover this case, and they
send you this kind of this big packet, you know,
when you're going through it and when you begin to
look at the notes of what you're going to cover,
(09:48):
and I begin to read through the scene, and I'm thinking, okay,
missing young boy remains have been found in you know,
two separate locations. They're skeletonized, he's missing for a time.
Oh and then there's these pictures and I'm thinking, oh, okay,
well what are the pictures? And then I had to
do a double take when I began to read about them,
because you know, these pictures. When you're thinking about forensic psychology,
(10:14):
there are certain roles that people think about from a
sexual standpoint. People have I don't want to call them
call them predispositions. That's not necessarily what they do, but
they are what are referred to as paraphilias, and there
(10:35):
is a particular paraphilia that is out there that's actually
called corporophilia, and it is a fascination. I hate to
say this on my own show, but it's a fascination
with feces, and particular human feces. And if you can imagine,
you're a divorced kid, you're scared, You've got tension between
(10:59):
your parents, and you travel along with your brother Corey,
to your father's house months prior to your disappearance, and
you're digging through your dad's computer, as you had mentioned,
and you come across a file and you look at
(11:22):
that file. You're in the bathroom with your brother. The
door is locked, and you click on it and there
are images of your father dressed in women's lingerie with
makeup on and human feces spread all over his face,
(11:45):
eating from a diaper. Dave, have you ever heard of
(12:10):
someone saying I almost died of embarrassment? You ever heard
that phrase before?
Speaker 3 (12:18):
I've used it before. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
I actually you're talking about theater and actors a minute
ago and I was thinking, okay, now your name in
my life?
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Did you get my bio as? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
And it was during one of those times where I
thought I was going to be so embarrassed I was
going to die.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, and it does happen. And look there we commit
any number of faux pause in life, you know, things
we say things we shouldn't do, or we exit the
bathroom and toilet paper is hanging out of the backside
of our pants, are stuck to our shoe, or we've
got spinach in our teeth, or you know, or in
my case, when I saw a friend of mine I
(12:55):
hadn't seen in years and years, this lady that I
was dear friends with when I was a child, and
she she I saw her and she said, oh, I'm pregnant.
I said, I know, and she said I just found
out yesterday. And so the meaning is is that she
(13:18):
had physically changed greatly and I hadn't seen her in years.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
So oh she was that. Okay, I got she had.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Increased in size, and I felt, you know, I turned
fifty shades of red. And it was very embarrassed for
having said that, And you know, I followed it up
with telling her that I love uh, that I thought
that she looked lovely, and of course I'm I'm tripping
over my tongue. The entire time. But when you get
when you get to the degree that Dylan's father was at,
(13:47):
particularly with these this paraphilia that he engaged in, and
you document it photographically, you save it, You save these
images so that I guess that you can live out
this kind of fantastical life when it's not going on,
and then suddenly your children find out about it. I
(14:09):
would think that that would be, I don't know, an
impetus for a rage field event.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Perhaps there was an interesting twist on this that the
boys Corey and Mark our Dylan. Rather Corey and Dylan
are the boys. They kept it to themselves at first.
They didn't immediately challenge Dad. They didn't immediately go to
him and say what are you doing?
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Who are you in it? They held it. They didn't
know what to do. I mean their kids.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, how's a kid going to know what to say?
Speaker 2 (14:36):
So imagine here's Dylan. And by the way, Dylan and
his father were together on a trip to Boston to
play baseball. It was a little league thing that Dylan
was a part of. And it was on this trip
when Mark, Dylan and Corey both had been talking about
confronting their father about these pictures, and Dylan apparently had
decided he was going to use this trip to Boston
(14:58):
to confront him. He texted, Corey, send me the pictures.
Corey didn't send him the pictures. I don't know whether
he decided I'm not going to let Dylan do it.
I'm gonna do it. Corey didn't send the pictures Dylan.
He sent these pictures to their dad on this trip
and he wrote some pretty they were from an insulting standpoint,
(15:20):
they were pretty awesome. I don't realize I don't remember
how old Corey is. Dylan was thirteen, but Corey wrote
you are what you eat to his dad with these
pictures that he showed him. So now on this trip
to Boston, Mark RedWine realizes that both of his sons,
or at least Corey, knows about the pictures because Corey
(15:45):
sent them to him. All I could think of is
that at some point in time you mentioned that it's
an actual issue. It's a I didn't realize that, Joe.
I thought, you know, there's all kinds of perversions and
things that people get into, but apparently, you know, he
was in the closet with this. Didn't want anybody to
know about it, and you've got pictures of him wearing
(16:05):
a red bra makeup and a diaper filled with Indian food,
you know, eaten by a child burst. Yeah, and I
just it boggles my mind.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah, it's it's actually horrible. I've seen not just the
crime scene photos, but I've seen these seen these images
that are you know that that are essentially the little
spark that created the flame for everything. And here's an
interesting bit of forensic data that arose because there's a
(16:35):
whole line of texting messages that went through that kind
of ran up the spine of this whole case. When Corey,
the older brother, sent that text to his father, Interestingly enough,
Mark wrote back and responded to Corey and yeah, and
(16:58):
he said, uh, you know, and this is after, uh,
after Corey had told him that he's a coward, that
he was nothing more than a sperm donor. And then
Mark actually texts back to Corey the father and says, uh,
telling him not to hurt his brother. Now he's telling
the older brother not to hurt the younger brother. And
(17:22):
you know, I guess he's he's he's saying, you know,
don't show him or you know, don't show him these photos,
thinking that Corey's only won't see him. But you know,
going to what you had said earlier, you know, there's
kind of disconnecting these these follow up visits that he
was having. Dylan had already seen him, right, This child
already had these images, you know, in his mind.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
And that's why I ask you, Joe, because you've covered
this more. I thought I had covered it a lot
until I looked at what you've done with this case.
And I hate it for you because I've had nightmares
about this one. But when I saw this, and again,
my brother and I were he's two years older than
I am, when my parents were going through a divorce.
And then it's not just the divorce, it's the things
that happened after the divorce. And that's what we're dealing
(18:04):
with here, is the aftermath. Even though mom and dad
didn't seem to do a good job of keeping the
boys uninvolved in the divorce, they were very involved. They
knew everything that was going on. They're old enough to know,
I guess. But when I believe, based on what I
have seen, that Mark red Wine actually believed, Yes, Corey
has these, don't share them with your little brother. Don't
(18:27):
hurt him. Let's keep this between you and me and
we'll deal with it. He was trying to save face.
I thought all the while, he doesn't know that Dylan
has seen these pictures and actually wants to confront him
about them.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
But they had.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Already been having a bad time together, as you mentioned,
So was do you think that their relationship was so
off kilter that Mark RedWine the father didn't realize that
Dylan red Wine not only saw the pictures but had
formulated his own opinion and that was what was causing
the friction in the relationship. Was he so deluded as
(19:01):
to think I can turn Dylan to be back on
my side in this divorce and you know, we'll just
fight it that way.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
No.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
I think that at this point in Tom, you know,
probably Mark RedWine realized that he had crossed the rubicon
with this, and I think that more than likely he's
trying to understand and figure out what he should do next.
I think that along with this comes this this level
of humiliation and concurrently anger, and he's going to strike out.
(19:29):
Remember that, you know he had been texting you had
mentioned the Boston going to Boston for baseball. That was
back on August the fifth, twenty twelve. It's November the eighteenth.
Remember you talked about Thanksgiving. It's November the eighteenth. He's
had to make a trip to his dad. This is
Dylan by himself, and he arrives at his dad. The
(19:50):
last time he's known to be alive is November the eighteenth,
twenty twelve. So you've got all of this time August
to November for all of the stuff to bubble up,
and who knows what's going on from a communication standpoint
during that period of time. Is communication becoming less frequent?
(20:10):
Do you have you know, angry messages flying back and forth,
what's being set on the phone for one another? And
so all of this plays into trying to determine where
Dylan is at this point in time. You know, once
he goes missing on November the eighteenth, and he's under
the care of his father, you know, the dad, Mark RedWine,
(20:35):
says he had left to go out and run errands,
and in fact, you know, when he got home he
said that, well, you know, Dylan wasn't there. He wasn't
he wasn't there, couldn't find him anywhere. And so that's
that's troubling. There was some activity on Dylan's phone. I
(20:56):
think probably the last phone activity was about nine pm
on November the eighteenth, and you know, who knows who
was actually using the phone at that point in time
to communicate with his friend. You know, Dylan was supposed
to go meet up with his buddy, and of course
that that never happened.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
I would like to point out Cory RedWine is actually
several years older than Dylan. Cory red Wine actually was
twenty years old, give or take when when this was
going on.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Yeah, he reached that age of emancipation where he if
he doesn't want to go to dad's house, he mightn't
have to go.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Well, I looked at it because I was wondering why,
you know, why is it? Because that that had always
troubled me, And I was like, wait a minute. He
was considerably older, and that's a that's a big That's
also why he was so confrontational with his dad. And
it also makes sense as to why Mark would address
him almost as as a peer, as an adult, saying,
don't hurt your little brother, but you know, seeing him
as much younger, not realizing that Dylan's the one that
(21:57):
found the photos to start with, and told Corey about them.
But now you've got the conference, the discussion where he's
we've got the text messages from Dylan to his friend
the evening before the next morning, Mark claims he goes
out to run errands and when he got home, Dylan
was gone. That's the scenario that he played out and
stayed with. This is where the world of forensics foggles
(22:22):
my mind, Joe, It really does, because I had no idea.
I had no idea of what you guys are capable
of figuring out, not just the next day, the next week,
the next month.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
But months and months. I mean, what.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Can still be found out, what's left behind. There is
no perfect crime.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
No, no, there's not. There is no perfect crime. You
can't do anything in a vacuum. And I, you know,
I always reflect back. I know of references before you
know where the in the Book of Genesis where you know,
you know, God calls out the cane and says, you know,
tells Caine, you know, your brother's blood cries out to
me from the ground. And in this particular case, you've
(23:12):
got Dylan's blood is actually found within the home and
it's not Later reports forensically indicate that it is it
is apparently not to the level or volume that would
necessarily be an event that is consistent with incompatibility with life.
(23:39):
You know, where you've just got a tremendous amount of
blood that's there that maybe there was an attempt to
clean up, but they found They found some on a
coffee table, they found some on on on on a sofa,
there was actually some beneath the carpet. And interestingly enough,
it was a dog that found the blood, you know,
(23:59):
with in the home, and dogs are so fascinating. You know,
you talk about us as forensic investigators, but you know
when you have an animal at your disposal that has
this incredible all factory I call it an all factory spectrum.
I know that people that are working optimology will probably
laugh about that, but that's what I refer to it
(24:20):
as it's a spectrum of smell that they have that
we we as humans can't even begin to touch. And
they are especially trained and on a side that folks
might not know. When I worked worked with a medical examiner,
we would have a lady that would come by periodically
(24:41):
and she would go back into our decomp area and
she had rags that she would soak up decomp fluid
out of the trays where the body sat and seal
them and then take take those rags out into the
woods and smear the trees with decomp fluid to train
her dogs with so that they would know what decomposing
human remnant smelt like. And so these dogs are trained.
(25:07):
You've got two separate groups of them. You've got them
that will track the living. Okay, you think bloodhounds and
those sorts of things, and then you have couldaver dogs.
And so what's considered to be a cadaver dog, Well, postmortem,
there has to be some level of decay that's there,
because it's on a different all factory spectrum, if you will.
And they hit on these things. They can even pick
(25:28):
up on the smell. Blood actually has has a foul
odor in and of itself even as it decomposes, and
so they'll hit along that spectrum and they'll be able
to track. But just within the house alone, they found
Dylan's Dylan's blood. And here's the thing we're talking about.
This is not like this would have been necessarily old
(25:51):
old blood, because what did you say in the beginning day,
this man's house had burned, it had been renovated, so
this sample that would have been in there would have
been something that probably would have been placed down in
that area or would have been introduced into that environment
post renovation, post fire. So that narrows it down. Because
(26:12):
the fire, if I remember, took place like back in
March of twenty twelve, and Dylan goes missing November the twelfth,
and you're left, You're left wondering, well, why would you
have multiple spots of this child's blood in this home
that you know he does it. He's not domiciled there,
(26:35):
he doesn't live there all the time, so you know
you can explain it. I mean, I've had a spontaneous
bloody nose over the course of my life. Heck, I've
I've busted my head on different things, and you know,
had an open bleeding wound. Yet that does happen, and certainly,
you know, being a qualified former little boy, I know
that I have spouted blood any number of ways. But
(26:58):
you know it from an investigative standpoint, how do you
get past that? This is one of those moments in
time where you have to ask bigger questions. And one
of the things that we do know this little boy
was nowhere in that house. But something tells me the
dogs are going to play a key role in discovering
diligre Lane Dave. I think if I ever do a podcast,
(27:48):
maybe as an adjunct to two Body Bags, where we
just do a little separate one, I think I might
use the title corpus DELECTI. I've always liked that term.
It comes from the Latin and it means the body
of the crime, but many times it is it is
in fact the body. And there's been a lot of
(28:11):
people that have said, you can't prosecute a homicide without
a body. And I think that for investigators in the
Dylan RedWine case, they were wondering if I think that
they suspected something was up, but they knew that they
had to find this child's body if they were ever
going to move forward with a case, and certainly moving
forward with out a body is a problem.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
So Dylan goes missing November nineteenth, twenty twelve. They don't
find him. There was weather situations to deal with with
regard to being able to put out a search for him.
It wasn't until the following year in twenty thirteen when
and it was the femur, but it was both femurs, right, yes, yeah,
(28:55):
Now what are the odds of finding that, you know,
something so specific legbones? Yeah, without finding everything, it just
seems odd.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Yeah, it kind of does to me too.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
But that's what they found in twenty thirteen.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah, it was actually in June. So this is going
to be after everything is thought. Remember we're in a
higher elevation in Colorado. It's to say that that Colorado
winners of brutal is certainly an understatement. It's terrifying that weather,
you know, during those periods of time, right, and you
know when Dylan went missing, they were right on the
cusp of that moment in time. I think that they
(29:29):
had already had some snowfall when Dylan had missed, had
gone missing back in twelve. But moving forward, you know,
you have to get out beyond that period the thaw
before you're going to find anything. And what did occur
is that I think it was roughly ten miles away
(29:49):
from Mark Redwine's home that the left and the right
femurs are actually found.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
So if you and never found on a road, Joey, Yeah,
that was odd. They found it eight miles from his
house eight miles from his house. They find the bones,
but they're on a road. Why would they find bones
on a road in June.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah, And so that to me, many times, if temperature drops, okay,
you'll have the body that will go into it won't
stop decomposing, but it will slow the decompositional process down
a bit, particularly if temperatures at a high elevation really
start to dip. And so they could have been deposited
(30:35):
off of the road some distance, say on an ATV trail,
And we do know that Mark or red Wine had
an ATV and they're deposited there and then once an animal,
once an animal begins to smell these these decomposing remains.
Remember they're actually found in June. There's nothing to say
that an animal would not have come by grabbed this
(30:57):
lower portion of the body. And it's not just the
lower portion the body. When they found the left and
the right femurs, they actually found the right clavical So
if you will touch, if you will, if you're listening
to my voice right now, it's your collarbone, and it's
your right collarbone. That's what they found of Dylan's. And
in addition to that, they found the tibia, which is
(31:20):
one of the lower leg bones.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
There's two.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
You have the tibia and the fibula that are in
the lower leg. Well, they found the right tibia, so
you've got two, and it's an odd combination in it, Dave,
You've got the left and the right femur, which are
the large robust bones in the legs. You've got the
right clavical which is the collarbone, and then you've got
(31:45):
this right tibia. So you know, as forensic forensic scientists,
you know, one of the things that you're thinking about
once this has been identified as human remains, you can't
necessarily say that it belongs to a specific person at
that point in time. But when you begin to examine
(32:06):
these and you're thinking, well, why do I only have
these items? Well, am I looking at a case where
we've got an animal that has torn a body apart?
Or do I have a case where another animal, a
human has torn a body apart and deposited the parts
in various areas, And so, you know, you begin to
(32:28):
think about this. If it's a human, then one of
the things that you're going to look for on the
surface of the bones are going to be tool marks
because that's how that's what we do. We've got opposable thumbs,
and we work with tools, and so if you're going
to take a part of human body, you're going to
need the tools to do that. And it's very I
don't know of any possible way that you could dismember
(32:48):
a human remain without utilizing some kind of metal tool
in order to do that. So these bones would have
to be carefully examined to you know, kind of either
rule that in or rule it out. Now.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
One thing they did is after they found the bones
in June of twenty thirteen, it took a couple of weeks,
but in August, about eight weeks after they find those bones,
they're able to search the house and the truck. That's
when they find they bring in the cadaver dogs. A
human cadaver dog is brought into Mark Redwine's home and
(33:21):
that's where the dogs were hitting on saying that there
had been the corpse of a deceased person had been present.
That's the actual the way they wrote it out. It
had been present in that home, also in the uh
the bed of his truck. And this was after they'd
found those bones. But they didn't find all of them,
(33:41):
and one comment Mark RedWine made to a friend of
his that really came back to haunt him before they
found anything. Mark RedWine made the comment, I guess they
were talking about, how do you charge anybody, you know,
if he was killed, if he you know, just I'm
trying to picture a conversation you would have with somebody
(34:01):
that would include the term blunt force trauma from a
dad talking about his son when he doesn't know what
has happened to his son. Why, for the life of me,
I can can't figure out Joe. That's just not a
term I would want to use about a loved one,
much less would even think about using.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
But he did.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Mark RedWine talked about blunt force trauma and well, they
need to find his head. Talking about police in order
to determine that his son had been murdered by blunt
force trauma, Well, they'd need to find his head.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Yeah. How is it that you're you're comfortable enough to
make that comment and it's so very specific, you know,
you can reformulate that to talk about well, you know, gee,
I hope they find my son's body and maybe there'll
be information can tained on it that'll let us know
what happened. Okay, that's that's kind of the sympathetic view.
(35:05):
But then you begin to look at this from the
perspective of, well, you're being very specific here, very specific,
because blunt force is something that we normally talk about
in the realm of forensics and specifically forensic pathology, and
(35:27):
it's it's so, it's so, it has such a fine
point on it, and not just fine point when you're
talking about method that is used, but also Dave, when
you begin to think about anatomical location, because he states,
you know that you'd have to find the skull and
and you know, I'm sure, much to his chagrin, Dalan
(35:51):
skull was actually found, well, what turned out to be
Dylan skull. Hikers actually found the skull on November the third,
two thousand and five, fifteen, and it took them all
the way to May the twenty fifth of twenty sixteen
to get the skull positively identified. At that point in time, why.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Would it take so long? But I do want to
add something to this too, Joe, Yeah, all right, they
made a note where his the first the partial remains
were found. In June twenty thirteen, they go and discover
the cadaver dogs hitting in the house and in the
truck bed, and then the hikers. Almost three years nearly,
(36:34):
I mean November third, twenty fifteen, is just about three
years after he goes missing. They find his skull and
it's now further away. It's two miles, it's about ten
miles from the house.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
And the one thing.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
That Mark RedWine had said out loud is he believed
wild animals had attacked and had drug him. And one
of the experts of wildlife expert actually determined that quote
no animal known to be in the area would transport
a body up the mountain from mister Redwine's residence to
the first recovery site, or would transport the skull an
(37:10):
additional one point five miles through the terrain where the
skull was found. Yes, there's mony indictment.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Yeah, they're they're not going to do that. And I
concur with with the with the expert in this case
and in my experience with where you have what are
referred to as a surface deposition of human remains, which
means these are non these are non buried remains. These
(37:37):
are these are remains that are left on top of
the ground. Now I'm not saying that at some point
in time the remains could not have been buried and
then kind of dug up.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
But the surface deposition.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah, surface deposition. And essentially what that means is that
if you think about Okay, I'll give you a good example,
think about Brian Laundry. Okay, they found him in the swamps. Well,
when Brian Laundry's remains were found out in the swamp,
his body was not buried. That's a surface deposition of
the body. In total. Now with with these remains, it's
(38:13):
over such a massive area. And David, it's not like
it's not like, you know, here in the in the
Deep South, we're gonna walk down a dirt road together
carrying something in our hand and throw out one item
here and throw it another. You're talking about undulating, uneven
terrain that rises and falls at pitches. We can't even fathom,
(38:35):
particularly those of us that live that are flat landers,
that live in these in these areas around here, the
terrain varies so much most animals when they scavenge. And
this is one other thing before I forget it, I
wanted to mention when Dylan died or was turned up missing,
it was shortly after that that I think that Mark
RedWine had had, you know, put forth this idea that
(39:00):
perhaps a bear had gotten it. But the experts, and
this gives you an idea of the temperatures at this time.
The experts said that by the time that Dylan had
gone missing in November twelve, the bears would have gone
into hibernation by that time, so they're not out and about.
And you compare this to the Morphew case. What did
Barry Morphew say about his wife? Well, Mountain Lion.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Got mountainline guy.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Yeah, but there's only three. They're very territorial, and the
three in the area, and that one was nowhere near
where he was.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Isn't it interesting how people blame animals for these sorts
of things. And with most surface depositions of skeletal remains,
where you have bodies, let's just put it this way,
Where you have bodies that are you have bodies that
are intact, okay, that means that nothing has been done
with them. As they decay on the ground, animals will
(39:50):
come and they'll generally start in areas that they can
get access to. So if you've got a closed body,
they're going to go for the face. They're going to
go for the fingers, all right, and they start to pull,
and as the body begins to deteriorate, things are more
easily pulled apart till they begin to tear at the clothing. Now,
some of Dylan's clothing was found. There were remnant of
(40:11):
clothing out there, including I think shoes as well. But
here here's the thing. You're not going to have them
spreading remains over this vast, uneven terrain, and I think
the skull what was okay, So the lower remains this
this deposition of the femurs eight miles away, along with
(40:33):
the clavicle and the tibia. That's eight miles away. You've
got to go another mile and a half up, you know,
increasing in elevation where you're gonna find his head. It
just it, you know, as they say down here in
the South, that dog don't hunt, and so it's just
it's just one of those things that it just it
defies all logic. Animals are not going to drag if
(40:55):
they're in a particular area kind of scavenging. They're gonna
grab whatever they can grab. They're going to take it back.
And the smaller animals, you know, you can forget about
that because if you're talking about coyotes, these are not huge,
robust animals where they're gonna walk miles and miles and
it's not like the savannahs of Africa or a lion
or something. They're not gonna walk miles and miles and
(41:17):
miles with something that they're gonna they're gonna eat. They're
going to go very short distances, sit down, and they're
going to begin to ingest their food.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
So if that is what happened, this makes no sense.
But what does make sense is you've got body parts,
you've got his remains found at eight miles away than
a mile and a half up the mountain, you find
his skull. But what did they find on the skull, Joe,
Because we remember Mark RedWine made the comment, well, they
(41:47):
can't do anything without finding, you know, without the head
because and he mentioned that's where the blunt force trauma
came in. By the way, still an unexplainable comment that
he made, and it has been brought up at court.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
It was brought up in each stage.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Of along this way, because who would say that other
than somebody guilty of doing such a thing. But what
did that skull tell investigators.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Well other you know, well baseline they were finally able
to get Dylan's remains identified off.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Of Oh yeah, okay, back to that you said, Okay,
they found the skull in November, but it was May
of the next year before they could even identify it.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
Yeah, and the images that I've seen of the skull
seems like that it would make dental id very very
difficult on him. And by the time you're Dylan's age
in life, you will have had some type of dentistry performed.
And many people might not know this. I'm sure that
(42:43):
DNA came came into play in Dylan's case, But did
you know that there are certain cases where we're trying
to identify bodies if we don't have teeth. Well, actually,
forensic codentologists who look at the dental X rays, well,
we've I've been involved in cases where we use the
sinuses to identify people. So you can do a comparison
between sinuses of anti mortem X rays with post mortem
(43:07):
X rays of the skull. So if you've got you know,
you've got sinuses throughout your head. They're not just anterior,
you have some posterior as well. There are these little
chambers in your body, and they have certain patterns when
you look at them on radiographs X rays. You can
actually compare antimortem with post mortem images and you can
get X rays. You can use that as a starting
(43:27):
point to get the identification done, and then a forensic
anthropologist will take the skull and they'll begin to do
measurements in a very broad sense. So when you're a
thirteen year old, your skull has not fully matured at
that point to the same size that it's going to
be when you're a full grown adult. So there are
(43:48):
certain measurements that forensic anthropologists will make in order to
determine does this individual fit it within this demographic that
we're looking for. We're talking about thirteen year old white male.
Does this skull that we have even begin to marginally
fit into that? And so you begin to narrow down
from there. But further examination by the forensic anthropologies found
(44:12):
found four items that are of significance. First off, they
found evidence of these kind of what we refer to
as curvelinear fractures on the skull. And when I say curvelinear,
it's a fancy way of saying that You've got these
fractures that are kind of in a line, but they
(44:33):
also slightly curve, and that gives you an idea that
and they're separate, they're not communicating, which means that they
do not touch one another. Those are two specific areas
of blunt force trauma that Dylan would have sustained, and
these were located in the back of the head. The
skull fractures do not appear to be depressed skull fractures
(44:54):
where the plug of bone has been knocked down in there,
but it's enough potentially of a concussive four that it
could kill him. And here's the other thing that will
send a chill up your spine about this. Remember how
we were going on about how these remains were separated, Well, Dave,
(45:14):
one of the things that the forensic anthropologists found on
Dylan's skull were two tiny linear tool marks that are
consistent with a knife blade. So what does that tell us?
Why would this child have knife blade marks on the
external table of his skull. Now, one of the defense
(45:37):
experts at Mark Redwine's trial actually put forth the idea, well,
that's probably from an animal. The teeth marks of an
animal look completely different than a milled edge of a blade.
And these things are very uniformed. You can tell that
this was generated by a tool. So the big question
(45:57):
you have to ask after Mark RedWine, let's put to
shame as a result of what his boys had discovered.
After he thinks about it for some time about what
he's going to do, did he allow that colonel to
be planted within his brain that drove him into such
(46:19):
a fit of rage that he would get his son
by himself on a Thanksgiving holiday, get him in that
house alone, beat him to death and destroy his mobile remains.
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this his body backs
Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. To lose someone whom
you love is one of the toughest things that a
(00:29):
human being will ever endure. I know that for a
fact because I've had loved ones that have passed on,
and I've also been present when I have had to
tell people that their loved ones have passed on. But
you know, some say that next to a death of
(00:55):
a loved one, that a divorce is one of the
most brutal things a human being can go through. You
tie a lot of emotion up in it because you
see perhaps a failure, you see an end to things
that you thought had great possibilities, and there it just
(01:19):
crumbles right before you. And of course the really sad
part is not necessarily going your own way from the
person that you thought you were going to spend the
rest of your life with. But if you have children,
they're left in the wake many times to be battered
(01:41):
up against the metaphorical rocks of life. Today, we're going
to talk about one such child. And this case is
special to me because it's a case that I covered
early on in my media and it impacted me, I
(02:02):
think probably like no other. Today we're going to talk
about the murder of Dylan red Wine. I'm Joseph Scott
Morgan and this is Body Packers, Dave. You know when
you're when you're a little boy, and you and I
(02:25):
used to be little boys. We spend our time playing
and having adventures, getting together with our friends, tossing the
ball around, some of the coolest times that you can experience.
But I know that for myself, I'm I am a
(02:46):
child of divorce. And you, yeah, and you pay a
price for it, don't you. I mean, it's not just
mom and dad that might pay a price, you know,
us kids that have been through it pay a price
as well. And sometimes those those things go unseen for
years and years, and they sometimes manifest themselves later on
in life.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
It's interesting how most children that grow up in a
nuclear home where divorce is not president. You just have mom,
dad and the kids, and all the children have different
stories to tell about their own upbringing based on the
when they were born, whether they're first born, middle last.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
And it's the same thing.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Happens when if you're a child of divorce, except now
you extend it out because whereas in a family that
is just mom, dad and the kids, they argue about
the attention they got, or mom loved you more, Dad
loved liked you more, of that whole thing. Well, now
it's expanded because now you've got mom and dad, plus
oftentimes they're extended spouses and other half brothers and half sisters.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
That it becomes a big fray.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
And some kids have a way of maneuvering through it
better than others.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, yeah, i'd agree you. And it's like a race
you're you're jocking for. I never know what validation actually means.
People use that term all the time. I never really
know what it is.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Oh, butocke Yeah, approval, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've always thought
of that. We all want to approval.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
We want it from our we want it from our
mom and dad first and foremost. And the fact, you
know what I wondered, Joan in this particular case, because
I've covered it too, when when it first began as
a missing person, what happened to this thirteen year old kid,
A thirteen year old boy, Dylan red Wine goes to
visit his dad. Now his mom and dad were divorced,
(04:32):
and Dylan did not want to go. That was made
pretty public fairly early in this whole case, but it
was Thanksgiving. He had to go there to be with
his dad for Thanksgiving. It was court ordered, so Dylan
red Wine went. He arrives at the airport in Colorado.
Dad picks him up. We have CCTV coverage. That's how
(04:53):
intense this case got. We saw him at Walmart, We
saw them at McDonald's. You don't see them being overly
warm with one another. There was a little distance while
they were walking, but you couldn't really see a whole lot.
But the bottom line always being the bottom line. Dylan
red Wine did reach out to a friend and was
going to meet him the next morning. Now he's at
(05:13):
dad's house. And one thing to point out, Mark RedWine,
the father. His home had burned about six months earlier,
and it had recently been remodeled, and this was the
first time that Dylan had really been there since it
had been remodeled. And that means something, by the way,
as we go further into this case, forensically speaking, So
(05:33):
Dylan red Wine is at this house. It wasn't unfamiliar territory.
He did have friends there and he called a friend.
He reached out to a friend in the evening and
they made plans for the next morning at six thirty am.
They were going to get to get now something thirteen
year old boys. Do you know when you're thirteen and
you've got the woods open area, you can get out
(05:55):
there and just I know I did it, but oh
that's an age, you know what as a man now,
I want to make sure. I wanted to make sure
my boys got it, and I want to make sure
my grandson gets it that there is something beautiful like
going out in the woods at thirteen and challenging yourself
to you know, what can you do.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
I'm in a tree trying trying to get back without
an open wound, bleeding.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Right, get in trouble. But you you're usually you have
a knife though, just in case.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, yeah, you have a knife. You're gonna you know,
you're gonna chop wood or yeah, uh, you know, do
some whittling, or you're going to play army.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Yeah. Just an adventure.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah, it is. It is a grand adventure. And you
you look at that and you think and and for
kids of divorce, that's uh, that's the ultimate Uh, that's
the ultimate fantasy world, isn't it. Because you can get
out there and you can.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
I never put that together, Joe, and you.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Can, Yeah, you can escape. You can escape from the
tension that's in the house. And interesting just kind of
a little here. I used to be. I used to
watch the show Inside the Actors Studio where the guy
would interview that James Lipton. He's passed on now, but
he would interview these actors and there was one thing
that he would always start off with in these interviews,
(07:14):
and he would say, we're going to come to a
common theme now that that is a thread that runs
through all of our guests. Here. You are a child
of divorce, and I would think about that and I thought, wow,
you know, where does some of this you know, because
I don't really know that many actors. I've got some
friends that are but not close friends, but you know,
(07:35):
you think about where do they get all this raw
emotion from and all these things? And I know as
a divorce kid, there is a lot of raw emotion.
There's a lot of stuff that you have to work out,
work through in your mind. And I don't know, maybe
some are you know, are drawn toward the toward the
theater because just for a moment, you can escape whatever
your perception of your reality is at that moment and
(07:57):
at Thanksgiving, imagine Dylan having to be away from the
safety of his home with his mother, where he wanted
to be, where he wanted to be.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
And it's joe interesting to point out not only did
he not want to be with his dad, the last
few times they had been together had been very tension filled,
to the point where Dylan no longer felt comfortable around
his dad. Plus, Dylan and Corey Corey is Dylan's brother,
they had found pictures on a computer of their dad. Yeah,
(08:35):
this divorce was already ugly, Okay, just throwing it out.
It was already ugly, and apparently Dylan and Corey both
had seen some legal documents that painted a very direct
picture of what was being claimed by their dad by
their mom. But it was the pictures they saw on
this computer that actually made them realize, this is not
a guy we want to be around. And Dylan did
(08:57):
not want to be there, and he had this in
the back of his head. And by the way, Mark
knew it.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
He knew it.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah, the father had a complete and total awareness. And
I just so you know, you know, I made reference
to how and I don't want to make this about me,
but just to kind of give you the background when
I was asked to cover this case, and I was actually,
you know, I cover cases on Court TV. I cover
(09:25):
cases on a Long Crime network, and I have friends
at both places whom I care for deeply, and I'll
be friends with many of them for life. They asked me,
Long Crime asked me to cover this case, and they
send you this kind of this big packet, you know,
when you're going through it and when you begin to
look at the notes of what you're going to cover,
(09:48):
and I begin to read through the scene, and I'm thinking, okay,
missing young boy remains have been found in you know,
two separate locations. They're skeletonized, he's missing for a time.
Oh and then there's these pictures and I'm thinking, oh, okay,
well what are the pictures? And then I had to
do a double take when I began to read about them,
because you know, these pictures. When you're thinking about forensic psychology,
(10:14):
there are certain roles that people think about from a
sexual standpoint. People have I don't want to call them
call them predispositions. That's not necessarily what they do, but
they are what are referred to as paraphilias, and there
(10:35):
is a particular paraphilia that is out there that's actually
called corporophilia, and it is a fascination. I hate to
say this on my own show, but it's a fascination
with feces, and particular human feces. And if you can imagine,
you're a divorced kid, you're scared, You've got tension between
(10:59):
your parents, and you travel along with your brother Corey,
to your father's house months prior to your disappearance, and
you're digging through your dad's computer, as you had mentioned,
and you come across a file and you look at
(11:22):
that file. You're in the bathroom with your brother. The
door is locked, and you click on it and there
are images of your father dressed in women's lingerie with
makeup on and human feces spread all over his face,
(11:45):
eating from a diaper. Dave, have you ever heard of
(12:10):
someone saying I almost died of embarrassment? You ever heard
that phrase before?
Speaker 3 (12:18):
I've used it before. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
I actually you're talking about theater and actors a minute
ago and I was thinking, okay, now your name in
my life?
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Did you get my bio as? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
And it was during one of those times where I
thought I was going to be so embarrassed I was
going to die.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, and it does happen. And look there we commit
any number of faux pause in life, you know, things
we say things we shouldn't do, or we exit the
bathroom and toilet paper is hanging out of the backside
of our pants, are stuck to our shoe, or we've
got spinach in our teeth, or you know, or in
my case, when I saw a friend of mine I
(12:55):
hadn't seen in years and years, this lady that I
was dear friends with when I was a child, and
she she I saw her and she said, oh, I'm pregnant.
I said, I know, and she said I just found
out yesterday. And so the meaning is is that she
(13:18):
had physically changed greatly and I hadn't seen her in years.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
So oh she was that. Okay, I got she had.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Increased in size, and I felt, you know, I turned
fifty shades of red. And it was very embarrassed for
having said that, And you know, I followed it up
with telling her that I love uh, that I thought
that she looked lovely, and of course I'm I'm tripping
over my tongue. The entire time. But when you get
when you get to the degree that Dylan's father was at,
(13:47):
particularly with these this paraphilia that he engaged in, and
you document it photographically, you save it, You save these
images so that I guess that you can live out
this kind of fantastical life when it's not going on,
and then suddenly your children find out about it. I
(14:09):
would think that that would be, I don't know, an
impetus for a rage field event.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Perhaps there was an interesting twist on this that the
boys Corey and Mark our Dylan. Rather Corey and Dylan
are the boys. They kept it to themselves at first.
They didn't immediately challenge Dad. They didn't immediately go to
him and say what are you doing?
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Who are you in it? They held it. They didn't
know what to do. I mean their kids.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, how's a kid going to know what to say?
Speaker 2 (14:36):
So imagine here's Dylan. And by the way, Dylan and
his father were together on a trip to Boston to
play baseball. It was a little league thing that Dylan
was a part of. And it was on this trip
when Mark, Dylan and Corey both had been talking about
confronting their father about these pictures, and Dylan apparently had
decided he was going to use this trip to Boston
(14:58):
to confront him. He texted, Corey, send me the pictures.
Corey didn't send him the pictures. I don't know whether
he decided I'm not going to let Dylan do it.
I'm gonna do it. Corey didn't send the pictures Dylan.
He sent these pictures to their dad on this trip
and he wrote some pretty they were from an insulting standpoint,
(15:20):
they were pretty awesome. I don't realize I don't remember
how old Corey is. Dylan was thirteen, but Corey wrote
you are what you eat to his dad with these
pictures that he showed him. So now on this trip
to Boston, Mark RedWine realizes that both of his sons,
or at least Corey, knows about the pictures because Corey
(15:45):
sent them to him. All I could think of is
that at some point in time you mentioned that it's
an actual issue. It's a I didn't realize that, Joe.
I thought, you know, there's all kinds of perversions and
things that people get into, but apparently, you know, he
was in the closet with this. Didn't want anybody to
know about it, and you've got pictures of him wearing
(16:05):
a red bra makeup and a diaper filled with Indian food,
you know, eaten by a child burst. Yeah, and I
just it boggles my mind.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah, it's it's actually horrible. I've seen not just the
crime scene photos, but I've seen these seen these images
that are you know that that are essentially the little
spark that created the flame for everything. And here's an
interesting bit of forensic data that arose because there's a
(16:35):
whole line of texting messages that went through that kind
of ran up the spine of this whole case. When Corey,
the older brother, sent that text to his father, Interestingly enough,
Mark wrote back and responded to Corey and yeah, and
(16:58):
he said, uh, you know, and this is after, uh,
after Corey had told him that he's a coward, that
he was nothing more than a sperm donor. And then
Mark actually texts back to Corey the father and says, uh,
telling him not to hurt his brother. Now he's telling
the older brother not to hurt the younger brother. And
(17:22):
you know, I guess he's he's he's saying, you know,
don't show him or you know, don't show him these photos,
thinking that Corey's only won't see him. But you know,
going to what you had said earlier, you know, there's
kind of disconnecting these these follow up visits that he
was having. Dylan had already seen him, right, This child
already had these images, you know, in his mind.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
And that's why I ask you, Joe, because you've covered
this more. I thought I had covered it a lot
until I looked at what you've done with this case.
And I hate it for you because I've had nightmares
about this one. But when I saw this, and again,
my brother and I were he's two years older than
I am, when my parents were going through a divorce.
And then it's not just the divorce, it's the things
that happened after the divorce. And that's what we're dealing
(18:04):
with here, is the aftermath. Even though mom and dad
didn't seem to do a good job of keeping the
boys uninvolved in the divorce, they were very involved. They
knew everything that was going on. They're old enough to know,
I guess. But when I believe, based on what I
have seen, that Mark red Wine actually believed, Yes, Corey
has these, don't share them with your little brother. Don't
(18:27):
hurt him. Let's keep this between you and me and
we'll deal with it. He was trying to save face.
I thought all the while, he doesn't know that Dylan
has seen these pictures and actually wants to confront him
about them.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
But they had.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Already been having a bad time together, as you mentioned,
So was do you think that their relationship was so
off kilter that Mark RedWine the father didn't realize that
Dylan red Wine not only saw the pictures but had
formulated his own opinion and that was what was causing
the friction in the relationship. Was he so deluded as
(19:01):
to think I can turn Dylan to be back on
my side in this divorce and you know, we'll just
fight it that way.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
No.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
I think that at this point in Tom, you know,
probably Mark RedWine realized that he had crossed the rubicon
with this, and I think that more than likely he's
trying to understand and figure out what he should do next.
I think that along with this comes this this level
of humiliation and concurrently anger, and he's going to strike out.
(19:29):
Remember that, you know he had been texting you had
mentioned the Boston going to Boston for baseball. That was
back on August the fifth, twenty twelve. It's November the eighteenth.
Remember you talked about Thanksgiving. It's November the eighteenth. He's
had to make a trip to his dad. This is
Dylan by himself, and he arrives at his dad. The
(19:50):
last time he's known to be alive is November the eighteenth,
twenty twelve. So you've got all of this time August
to November for all of the stuff to bubble up,
and who knows what's going on from a communication standpoint
during that period of time. Is communication becoming less frequent?
(20:10):
Do you have you know, angry messages flying back and forth,
what's being set on the phone for one another? And
so all of this plays into trying to determine where
Dylan is at this point in time. You know, once
he goes missing on November the eighteenth, and he's under
the care of his father, you know, the dad, Mark RedWine,
(20:35):
says he had left to go out and run errands,
and in fact, you know, when he got home he
said that, well, you know, Dylan wasn't there. He wasn't
he wasn't there, couldn't find him anywhere. And so that's
that's troubling. There was some activity on Dylan's phone. I
(20:56):
think probably the last phone activity was about nine pm
on November the eighteenth, and you know, who knows who
was actually using the phone at that point in time
to communicate with his friend. You know, Dylan was supposed
to go meet up with his buddy, and of course
that that never happened.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
I would like to point out Cory RedWine is actually
several years older than Dylan. Cory red Wine actually was
twenty years old, give or take when when this was
going on.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Yeah, he reached that age of emancipation where he if
he doesn't want to go to dad's house, he mightn't
have to go.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Well, I looked at it because I was wondering why,
you know, why is it? Because that that had always
troubled me, And I was like, wait a minute. He
was considerably older, and that's a that's a big That's
also why he was so confrontational with his dad. And
it also makes sense as to why Mark would address
him almost as as a peer, as an adult, saying,
don't hurt your little brother, but you know, seeing him
as much younger, not realizing that Dylan's the one that
(21:57):
found the photos to start with, and told Corey about them.
But now you've got the conference, the discussion where he's
we've got the text messages from Dylan to his friend
the evening before the next morning, Mark claims he goes
out to run errands and when he got home, Dylan
was gone. That's the scenario that he played out and
stayed with. This is where the world of forensics foggles
(22:22):
my mind, Joe, It really does, because I had no idea.
I had no idea of what you guys are capable
of figuring out, not just the next day, the next week,
the next month.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
But months and months. I mean, what.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Can still be found out, what's left behind. There is
no perfect crime.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
No, no, there's not. There is no perfect crime. You
can't do anything in a vacuum. And I, you know,
I always reflect back. I know of references before you
know where the in the Book of Genesis where you know,
you know, God calls out the cane and says, you know,
tells Caine, you know, your brother's blood cries out to
me from the ground. And in this particular case, you've
(23:12):
got Dylan's blood is actually found within the home and
it's not Later reports forensically indicate that it is it
is apparently not to the level or volume that would
necessarily be an event that is consistent with incompatibility with life.
(23:39):
You know, where you've just got a tremendous amount of
blood that's there that maybe there was an attempt to
clean up, but they found They found some on a
coffee table, they found some on on on on a sofa,
there was actually some beneath the carpet. And interestingly enough,
it was a dog that found the blood, you know,
(23:59):
with in the home, and dogs are so fascinating. You know,
you talk about us as forensic investigators, but you know
when you have an animal at your disposal that has
this incredible all factory I call it an all factory spectrum.
I know that people that are working optimology will probably
laugh about that, but that's what I refer to it
(24:20):
as it's a spectrum of smell that they have that
we we as humans can't even begin to touch. And
they are especially trained and on a side that folks
might not know. When I worked worked with a medical examiner,
we would have a lady that would come by periodically
(24:41):
and she would go back into our decomp area and
she had rags that she would soak up decomp fluid
out of the trays where the body sat and seal
them and then take take those rags out into the
woods and smear the trees with decomp fluid to train
her dogs with so that they would know what decomposing
human remnant smelt like. And so these dogs are trained.
(25:07):
You've got two separate groups of them. You've got them
that will track the living. Okay, you think bloodhounds and
those sorts of things, and then you have couldaver dogs.
And so what's considered to be a cadaver dog, Well, postmortem,
there has to be some level of decay that's there,
because it's on a different all factory spectrum, if you will.
And they hit on these things. They can even pick
(25:28):
up on the smell. Blood actually has has a foul
odor in and of itself even as it decomposes, and
so they'll hit along that spectrum and they'll be able
to track. But just within the house alone, they found
Dylan's Dylan's blood. And here's the thing we're talking about.
This is not like this would have been necessarily old
(25:51):
old blood, because what did you say in the beginning day,
this man's house had burned, it had been renovated, so
this sample that would have been in there would have
been something that probably would have been placed down in
that area or would have been introduced into that environment
post renovation, post fire. So that narrows it down. Because
(26:12):
the fire, if I remember, took place like back in
March of twenty twelve, and Dylan goes missing November the twelfth,
and you're left, You're left wondering, well, why would you
have multiple spots of this child's blood in this home
that you know he does it. He's not domiciled there,
(26:35):
he doesn't live there all the time, so you know
you can explain it. I mean, I've had a spontaneous
bloody nose over the course of my life. Heck, I've
I've busted my head on different things, and you know,
had an open bleeding wound. Yet that does happen, and certainly,
you know, being a qualified former little boy, I know
that I have spouted blood any number of ways. But
(26:58):
you know it from an investigative standpoint, how do you
get past that? This is one of those moments in
time where you have to ask bigger questions. And one
of the things that we do know this little boy
was nowhere in that house. But something tells me the
dogs are going to play a key role in discovering
diligre Lane Dave. I think if I ever do a podcast,
(27:48):
maybe as an adjunct to two Body Bags, where we
just do a little separate one, I think I might
use the title corpus DELECTI. I've always liked that term.
It comes from the Latin and it means the body
of the crime, but many times it is it is
in fact the body. And there's been a lot of
(28:11):
people that have said, you can't prosecute a homicide without
a body. And I think that for investigators in the
Dylan RedWine case, they were wondering if I think that
they suspected something was up, but they knew that they
had to find this child's body if they were ever
going to move forward with a case, and certainly moving
forward with out a body is a problem.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
So Dylan goes missing November nineteenth, twenty twelve. They don't
find him. There was weather situations to deal with with
regard to being able to put out a search for him.
It wasn't until the following year in twenty thirteen when
and it was the femur, but it was both femurs, right, yes, yeah,
(28:55):
Now what are the odds of finding that, you know,
something so specific legbones? Yeah, without finding everything, it just
seems odd.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Yeah, it kind of does to me too.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
But that's what they found in twenty thirteen.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah, it was actually in June. So this is going
to be after everything is thought. Remember we're in a
higher elevation in Colorado. It's to say that that Colorado
winners of brutal is certainly an understatement. It's terrifying that weather,
you know, during those periods of time, right, and you
know when Dylan went missing, they were right on the
cusp of that moment in time. I think that they
(29:29):
had already had some snowfall when Dylan had missed, had
gone missing back in twelve. But moving forward, you know,
you have to get out beyond that period the thaw
before you're going to find anything. And what did occur
is that I think it was roughly ten miles away
(29:49):
from Mark Redwine's home that the left and the right
femurs are actually found.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
So if you and never found on a road, Joey, Yeah,
that was odd. They found it eight miles from his
house eight miles from his house. They find the bones,
but they're on a road. Why would they find bones
on a road in June.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah, And so that to me, many times, if temperature drops, okay,
you'll have the body that will go into it won't
stop decomposing, but it will slow the decompositional process down
a bit, particularly if temperatures at a high elevation really
start to dip. And so they could have been deposited
(30:35):
off of the road some distance, say on an ATV trail,
And we do know that Mark or red Wine had
an ATV and they're deposited there and then once an animal,
once an animal begins to smell these these decomposing remains.
Remember they're actually found in June. There's nothing to say
that an animal would not have come by grabbed this
(30:57):
lower portion of the body. And it's not just the
lower portion the body. When they found the left and
the right femurs, they actually found the right clavical So
if you will touch, if you will, if you're listening
to my voice right now, it's your collarbone, and it's
your right collarbone. That's what they found of Dylan's. And
in addition to that, they found the tibia, which is
(31:20):
one of the lower leg bones.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
There's two.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
You have the tibia and the fibula that are in
the lower leg. Well, they found the right tibia, so
you've got two, and it's an odd combination in it, Dave,
You've got the left and the right femur, which are
the large robust bones in the legs. You've got the
right clavical which is the collarbone, and then you've got
(31:45):
this right tibia. So you know, as forensic forensic scientists,
you know, one of the things that you're thinking about
once this has been identified as human remains, you can't
necessarily say that it belongs to a specific person at
that point in time. But when you begin to examine
(32:06):
these and you're thinking, well, why do I only have
these items? Well, am I looking at a case where
we've got an animal that has torn a body apart?
Or do I have a case where another animal, a
human has torn a body apart and deposited the parts
in various areas, And so, you know, you begin to
(32:28):
think about this. If it's a human, then one of
the things that you're going to look for on the
surface of the bones are going to be tool marks
because that's how that's what we do. We've got opposable thumbs,
and we work with tools, and so if you're going
to take a part of human body, you're going to
need the tools to do that. And it's very I
don't know of any possible way that you could dismember
(32:48):
a human remain without utilizing some kind of metal tool
in order to do that. So these bones would have
to be carefully examined to you know, kind of either
rule that in or rule it out. Now.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
One thing they did is after they found the bones
in June of twenty thirteen, it took a couple of weeks,
but in August, about eight weeks after they find those bones,
they're able to search the house and the truck. That's
when they find they bring in the cadaver dogs. A
human cadaver dog is brought into Mark Redwine's home and
(33:21):
that's where the dogs were hitting on saying that there
had been the corpse of a deceased person had been present.
That's the actual the way they wrote it out. It
had been present in that home, also in the uh
the bed of his truck. And this was after they'd
found those bones. But they didn't find all of them,
(33:41):
and one comment Mark RedWine made to a friend of
his that really came back to haunt him before they
found anything. Mark RedWine made the comment, I guess they
were talking about, how do you charge anybody, you know,
if he was killed, if he you know, just I'm
trying to picture a conversation you would have with somebody
(34:01):
that would include the term blunt force trauma from a
dad talking about his son when he doesn't know what
has happened to his son. Why, for the life of me,
I can can't figure out Joe. That's just not a
term I would want to use about a loved one,
much less would even think about using.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
But he did.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Mark RedWine talked about blunt force trauma and well, they
need to find his head. Talking about police in order
to determine that his son had been murdered by blunt
force trauma, Well, they'd need to find his head.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Yeah. How is it that you're you're comfortable enough to
make that comment and it's so very specific, you know,
you can reformulate that to talk about well, you know, gee,
I hope they find my son's body and maybe there'll
be information can tained on it that'll let us know
what happened. Okay, that's that's kind of the sympathetic view.
(35:05):
But then you begin to look at this from the
perspective of, well, you're being very specific here, very specific,
because blunt force is something that we normally talk about
in the realm of forensics and specifically forensic pathology, and
(35:27):
it's it's so, it's so, it has such a fine
point on it, and not just fine point when you're
talking about method that is used, but also Dave, when
you begin to think about anatomical location, because he states,
you know that you'd have to find the skull and
and you know, I'm sure, much to his chagrin, Dalan
(35:51):
skull was actually found, well, what turned out to be
Dylan skull. Hikers actually found the skull on November the third,
two thousand and five, fifteen, and it took them all
the way to May the twenty fifth of twenty sixteen
to get the skull positively identified. At that point in time, why.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Would it take so long? But I do want to
add something to this too, Joe, Yeah, all right, they
made a note where his the first the partial remains
were found. In June twenty thirteen, they go and discover
the cadaver dogs hitting in the house and in the
truck bed, and then the hikers. Almost three years nearly,
(36:34):
I mean November third, twenty fifteen, is just about three
years after he goes missing. They find his skull and
it's now further away. It's two miles, it's about ten
miles from the house.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
And the one thing.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
That Mark RedWine had said out loud is he believed
wild animals had attacked and had drug him. And one
of the experts of wildlife expert actually determined that quote
no animal known to be in the area would transport
a body up the mountain from mister Redwine's residence to
the first recovery site, or would transport the skull an
(37:10):
additional one point five miles through the terrain where the
skull was found. Yes, there's mony indictment.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Yeah, they're they're not going to do that. And I
concur with with the with the expert in this case
and in my experience with where you have what are
referred to as a surface deposition of human remains, which
means these are non these are non buried remains. These
(37:37):
are these are remains that are left on top of
the ground. Now I'm not saying that at some point
in time the remains could not have been buried and
then kind of dug up.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
But the surface deposition.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah, surface deposition. And essentially what that means is that
if you think about Okay, I'll give you a good example,
think about Brian Laundry. Okay, they found him in the swamps. Well,
when Brian Laundry's remains were found out in the swamp,
his body was not buried. That's a surface deposition of
the body. In total. Now with with these remains, it's
(38:13):
over such a massive area. And David, it's not like
it's not like, you know, here in the in the
Deep South, we're gonna walk down a dirt road together
carrying something in our hand and throw out one item
here and throw it another. You're talking about undulating, uneven
terrain that rises and falls at pitches. We can't even fathom,
(38:35):
particularly those of us that live that are flat landers,
that live in these in these areas around here, the
terrain varies so much most animals when they scavenge. And
this is one other thing before I forget it, I
wanted to mention when Dylan died or was turned up missing,
it was shortly after that that I think that Mark
RedWine had had, you know, put forth this idea that
(39:00):
perhaps a bear had gotten it. But the experts, and
this gives you an idea of the temperatures at this time.
The experts said that by the time that Dylan had
gone missing in November twelve, the bears would have gone
into hibernation by that time, so they're not out and about.
And you compare this to the Morphew case. What did
Barry Morphew say about his wife? Well, Mountain Lion.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Got mountainline guy.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Yeah, but there's only three. They're very territorial, and the
three in the area, and that one was nowhere near
where he was.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Isn't it interesting how people blame animals for these sorts
of things. And with most surface depositions of skeletal remains,
where you have bodies, let's just put it this way,
Where you have bodies that are you have bodies that
are intact, okay, that means that nothing has been done
with them. As they decay on the ground, animals will
(39:50):
come and they'll generally start in areas that they can
get access to. So if you've got a closed body,
they're going to go for the face. They're going to
go for the fingers, all right, and they start to pull,
and as the body begins to deteriorate, things are more
easily pulled apart till they begin to tear at the clothing. Now,
some of Dylan's clothing was found. There were remnant of
(40:11):
clothing out there, including I think shoes as well. But
here here's the thing. You're not going to have them
spreading remains over this vast, uneven terrain, and I think
the skull what was okay, So the lower remains this
this deposition of the femurs eight miles away, along with
(40:33):
the clavicle and the tibia. That's eight miles away. You've
got to go another mile and a half up, you know,
increasing in elevation where you're gonna find his head. It
just it, you know, as they say down here in
the South, that dog don't hunt, and so it's just
it's just one of those things that it just it
defies all logic. Animals are not going to drag if
(40:55):
they're in a particular area kind of scavenging. They're gonna
grab whatever they can grab. They're going to take it back.
And the smaller animals, you know, you can forget about
that because if you're talking about coyotes, these are not huge,
robust animals where they're gonna walk miles and miles and
it's not like the savannahs of Africa or a lion
or something. They're not gonna walk miles and miles and
(41:17):
miles with something that they're gonna they're gonna eat. They're
going to go very short distances, sit down, and they're
going to begin to ingest their food.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
So if that is what happened, this makes no sense.
But what does make sense is you've got body parts,
you've got his remains found at eight miles away than
a mile and a half up the mountain, you find
his skull. But what did they find on the skull, Joe,
Because we remember Mark RedWine made the comment, well, they
(41:47):
can't do anything without finding, you know, without the head
because and he mentioned that's where the blunt force trauma
came in. By the way, still an unexplainable comment that
he made, and it has been brought up at court.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
It was brought up in each stage.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Of along this way, because who would say that other
than somebody guilty of doing such a thing. But what
did that skull tell investigators.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Well other you know, well baseline they were finally able
to get Dylan's remains identified off.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Of Oh yeah, okay, back to that you said, Okay,
they found the skull in November, but it was May
of the next year before they could even identify it.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
Yeah, and the images that I've seen of the skull
seems like that it would make dental id very very
difficult on him. And by the time you're Dylan's age
in life, you will have had some type of dentistry performed.
And many people might not know this. I'm sure that
(42:43):
DNA came came into play in Dylan's case, But did
you know that there are certain cases where we're trying
to identify bodies if we don't have teeth. Well, actually,
forensic codentologists who look at the dental X rays, well,
we've I've been involved in cases where we use the
sinuses to identify people. So you can do a comparison
between sinuses of anti mortem X rays with post mortem
(43:07):
X rays of the skull. So if you've got you know,
you've got sinuses throughout your head. They're not just anterior,
you have some posterior as well. There are these little
chambers in your body, and they have certain patterns when
you look at them on radiographs X rays. You can
actually compare antimortem with post mortem images and you can
get X rays. You can use that as a starting
(43:27):
point to get the identification done, and then a forensic
anthropologist will take the skull and they'll begin to do
measurements in a very broad sense. So when you're a
thirteen year old, your skull has not fully matured at
that point to the same size that it's going to
be when you're a full grown adult. So there are
(43:48):
certain measurements that forensic anthropologists will make in order to
determine does this individual fit it within this demographic that
we're looking for. We're talking about thirteen year old white male.
Does this skull that we have even begin to marginally
fit into that? And so you begin to narrow down
from there. But further examination by the forensic anthropologies found
(44:12):
found four items that are of significance. First off, they
found evidence of these kind of what we refer to
as curvelinear fractures on the skull. And when I say curvelinear,
it's a fancy way of saying that You've got these
fractures that are kind of in a line, but they
(44:33):
also slightly curve, and that gives you an idea that
and they're separate, they're not communicating, which means that they
do not touch one another. Those are two specific areas
of blunt force trauma that Dylan would have sustained, and
these were located in the back of the head. The
skull fractures do not appear to be depressed skull fractures
(44:54):
where the plug of bone has been knocked down in there,
but it's enough potentially of a concussive four that it
could kill him. And here's the other thing that will
send a chill up your spine about this. Remember how
we were going on about how these remains were separated, Well, Dave,
(45:14):
one of the things that the forensic anthropologists found on
Dylan's skull were two tiny linear tool marks that are
consistent with a knife blade. So what does that tell us?
Why would this child have knife blade marks on the
external table of his skull. Now, one of the defense
(45:37):
experts at Mark Redwine's trial actually put forth the idea, well,
that's probably from an animal. The teeth marks of an
animal look completely different than a milled edge of a blade.
And these things are very uniformed. You can tell that
this was generated by a tool. So the big question
(45:57):
you have to ask after Mark RedWine, let's put to
shame as a result of what his boys had discovered.
After he thinks about it for some time about what
he's going to do, did he allow that colonel to
be planted within his brain that drove him into such
(46:19):
a fit of rage that he would get his son
by himself on a Thanksgiving holiday, get him in that
house alone, beat him to death and destroy his mobile remains.
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this his body backs
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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