October 8, 2024 • 36 mins
In the course of just one week, Marisa and Steven each announced major career news. For Marisa, it was the return to serving as the brand and marketing chief for a big American retailer (but doing it her way, which she wrote about on LinkedIn in a piece called “Try it On”). For Steven, it is also about doing it his own way by launching a new company (Alpha & Co) to help brands, boards, and business leaders navigate the complexities of growth in the AI era. With true candor, insight and humor these two executives share what was behind these decisions, and what everyone might consider from them in their own career choices.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hi, and thanks for joining us on Brand New from
the iHeart Podcast Network and Brand New Labs. I'm Marissa Fahlberg.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
And I'm Stephen wolf Fereda And wow, Marissa, what a
week not going on just a little bit.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
You know, it wasn't enough for one of us to
have some big career news. We both had to have
big career news. So I think what's new is what's
new in our worlds. Huh, our own worlds.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Well, I just appreciate you, uh finding the timing to
work out with me announcing my news, you announcing your news,
so it all kind of worked out. But Marissa, what
is your news? What is new with you and your gig?
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I think because so much of what we care to
do on this podcast is talk about careers in this industry,
being brave, taking chances. We're living it this week, and
we're living it in our own way and we're writing
our own rules. So I'm proud of you, I'm proud
of us, and I think it's incredibly serendipitous that we
(01:06):
get to do this, announce this the same week, and
now do it podcast talking about it. So how cool
is that? So my news is after I left Low's
I went into the world of theme parks, and I've
really tried to practice this idea That was not intentional
in the beginning when I went from Luxury Beauty to
(01:27):
Taco Bell and that was so anachronistic to people, including myself,
of course, but I loved realizing the way you can
use lateral thinking to make yourself a better leader, in
my case, a better marketer by finding the connection points
that aren't obvious. It's very obvious to say what's different
between those two things, and so that became a driving
(01:50):
principle for me, and that's why I wanted to do
the hardest thing I could do, which was big box
home improvement retail on. As it turns out, leading that
company through the pandemic was an incredible strange moment of happenstance.
So going to theme parks felt like a continuation of that.
No one knew what I was going to do next,
but you know, there were aspects there that just weren't
(02:12):
in keeping with allowing me to do all the things
that I love to do. Even though I a big
shout out to the team I worked with, whom I
absolutely adored and adore, so that got me thinking about
this idea that sometimes you want to be able to
try things on first and really see, especially for those
of us who are really meant to be agents of transformation,
(02:35):
because if you're going to be in a situation where
you're asked to do things differently, you have to get
on the ground and find out you're actually going to
be equipped to do it. So I wrote a piece
on LinkedIn this week, which, by the way, thank you,
called try it on, and I use the metaphor of
a dressing room, and all that was to say, like,
I hope our listeners read it because it's better read
(02:57):
than me trying to recreate it and describe it. But
the point is I decided to do something a little
differently this time and try on a new role first.
When I met the most incredible CEO, we had an
instant sense of just c of who I'm getting there,
CEO of the retailer, a troubled retailer, not going to
(03:18):
soften the edges of that. You know. My first reaction was, ugh,
could I take this on? And he had the vision
to say, well, we could do this as a consulting CMO,
and he understood that I would want to try it
on and that enabled me to say yes, and that
CEO is Mark Rosen and the company's J. C. Penny.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
So great, congratulations, thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
And look, I know, I know this is going to
be hard because there are a lot of headwinds on
this business.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
I also know, well, retail's hard. Any job is hard, right,
I mean honestly in this day and age, no step.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Yes, that's true. And so then you have to peel
it back and say, what are the conditions that are
going to make this fruitful for me? Satisfying for me?
And you realize it's not just is this business on fire?
It's is this business one where the conditions are such,
the people are such that I think I could do
(04:17):
what I do or at least try right. And that's
so much of what showing up is is trying and
giving it your all. And I'm really ready and excited
to give this my all. Everyone I've met so far
has been amazing. I see the potential. So I'm now
the consulting chief Marketing Officer and that's in my title
(04:39):
now by design, and I love that. I love writing
some different rules and you know what, it allows me
to still do this with you. It allows me to
still do some of the other things I do time permitting,
because of course time is our biggest fight in all this.
But I'm excited, so meantime I go say yes to
a big, crazy, new, exciting corporate job. And let's talk
(04:59):
about what you just announced. Gus. Our paths are just
inverted in the funniest way.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I know. I know, it's very very funny. That's the
way the universe kind of works sometimes.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Our universe.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Yeah, first off, kudos to you, and I love the
whole metaphor of trying it on.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
And I think in this day and age, to see
the path where there is no path, and I think
this is one of the biggest fallacies. And I helpe
all of our listeners really kind of internalize this. There
is no path and there is no oh you should
be doing this, and the expectations that people have, oh well,
(05:35):
you went from this firm and then you went to
that firm, and you know the people that are going
to be like, oh, well, why did she take that
job and why did she do this? Like all those
haters they could just go, you know, jump off a bridge.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
The reality is there is no path and the fact
that you are taking control of your career, that we
are all entering this phase where you're taking this portfolio
approach to your career. And I really believe that trying
something on is such a powerful metaphor because you have
to take these calculated risks. And I've always believed in,
(06:08):
you know, kind of calculated risk, whether it's you know, financially,
you know, whether it's professionally, but understanding that you are
doing something that is certainly applying your skills, your understanding
of retail and brands and consumers and creative and fashion.
I haven't seen you this energize in a long time,
and it's just really exciting to see you take on
(06:29):
this role.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Thank you, and I want to get to your news,
but I'd love to just say one more thing about
that try it on philosophy as an important point of clarification,
which is that it should not be confused with only
putting one toe in the pool and not really giving
it your all. Anyone who knows me knows I'm all
in and I'm giving it my all, but what it
(06:50):
really and it's It's taken me lots of bumps and
bruises and a lot of fear of what other people think,
as you well know, and I'll be vulnerable and say
that it is hard to say there is no path.
And I'm not going to be defensive about well, why
I stayed here long but here shorter because the try
it on. The reason why I wanted to write that
(07:11):
is because it is about finding your courage to do
things that might have risk, because most good things do.
And the fine print on risks that very few people
talk about. We certainly don't mythologize this in culture. We
only celebrate the entrepreneur who lived in the back of
their car and is now a multi millionaire. Risks are risky,
(07:31):
that's the fine print. So if you are going to
lean in and take risks, what comes with that is
some risk won't pay out the way you think. And
what I meant to say in this piece is that
being okay and I'm not totally okay with it. This
is like something I'm trying to condition myself to to
dust yourself off and say that wasn't right because I
(07:54):
wasn't right. We weren't exactly right. Maybe together or I
see a bigger, better place to channel my energies and
my talents That's what it is. It's not about giving up,
it's not about failure, it's not about being showing a
lack of commitment. I am all in on this. I'm
all in on everything I do. But it also is
(08:16):
about having a mindset to realize that gives you permission
to try. And I would be very happy if the
takeaway of anyone who reads the piece about trying it
on drops it on and just takes away the idea
of try.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
It's just this whole, you know, kind of philosophy around
failure and this whole fear of you know, messing up,
of you know, what people are going to think. I mean,
the ho idea is, don't be afraid to fail, be
afraid of never trying. Failure is truly a stepping stone
to success. And again I feel like I will take
a step forward and if I fail, I've learned from that.
(08:53):
And then you try something on, you you go forward.
But I just reallycommend you, and I think it's an
inspiration and I hope more folks take these types of
calculator risks and if it doesn't work out, that's fine.
You'll do something else because you were smart, you have
experience and I just really believe that we're entering this
new phase again, and you know, it's certainly tied to
(09:13):
kind of what I'm trying to do now, but I
feel like we're in a moment where the way that
we think about work is going to radically change in
this AI era.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
All Right, Well, that's a lovely segue speaking of trying
and work changing and all that to what you're doing next.
So let's talk about you.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Now, this has been kind of a long time coming.
I'm actually in Boston recording this episode with you, but
I'm here partly to kind of celebrate with some friends
the twenty fifth anniversary of me joining this little startup
that came out of MIT called Akamai Technologies. And it's
kind of crazy that it's been twenty five years. That
(09:55):
certainly sounds like I've gray hair and old, But it
was a moment when I joined in nineteen ninety nine.
This was truly the beginning of phase one of the Internet,
of the whole kind of boom that we kind of saw.
And I feel like in ninety five when Netscape went public,
that was really, you know, kind of the first true
(10:16):
catalyst that launched the Internet boom. And you know, fast forward.
You know, I've been working in tech for a very
long time. I think a lot of folks in the
industry know me from my marketing and media and agency days,
but I had this whole other career before that, and
it was always in tech.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
You know.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
I started in you know, finance and in private equity
doing tech media and telecom, and then I joined DOKAMAI
and their engineering group and their network infrastructure group, and
that was really, you know, kind of the early days
of the Internet. But they were also the leader in
you know, kind of using machine learning and you know,
early days of AI and applying it to you know,
the Internet. The co founder of the company doctor Tom Layton.
(10:54):
He was literally the guy that wrote the book on
parallel computing. He was the head of the lab for
computer science in my t and he's currently the CEO
of Akama today. And Akama is still a very successful company.
It's like, you know, fifteen sixteen billion dollars in market cap,
the tickers akam. If you haven't you seen the company,
check it out. But fast forward, when chat GBT came
out in November of twenty two, it was just this
(11:17):
moment and it was so shocking to me because I've
seen all these different waves of kind of folks trying
to do things in AI, but this was the first
true consumer application, the first true instance of Wow, we're
having this magical moment. And for me, that was the
Netscape Navigator moment of the AI era, and I could
not get it out of my head. I was like,
(11:38):
holy cow, this is going to change everything. And I
know it sounds like hyperbole and everyone's on the AI train,
but again, I've been doing this for twenty five plus years.
I mean I vividly remember when I got to you know,
Data Logics and they were using machine learning to kind
of figure out how to you know, tye purchase data
from online ads to offline. Then at Oracle Data Cloud
and then new Star, and then at this company Concast,
(11:59):
which you know, the co founder Conrad Development PhD in
machine learning, and we were trying to do all this
stuff around AI driven behavioral analytics. And I remember convening
you know kind of folks you know in can in
like you know, I think seventeen and twenty eighteen nineteen,
and it was just too early. People were interested, but
it didn't have the application. And now we finally have
(12:20):
the first consumer application, and now everything changes.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
So what you've said before on this podcast, even over
the course of episodes where we've certainly been joking that
AI makes its way into every conversation, and I think
you've been very quick to point out artificial intelligence was
not born a year and a half ago. But that
was that kind of defining moment with chrat GPT where
(12:45):
suddenly the gates opened in terms of how average people,
everyday people could suddenly apply it. And I think that's
what's so interesting about your background is you were there
at the beginning. When you say nineteen ninety nine, what
makes me laugh is that that's the year I date
the beginning of my own digital marketing journey because I
was at Unilever Cosmetics, Calvin Klein Cosmetics. And this is
(13:08):
just a really quick funny story. The CEOs, this big
boisterous woman, banged her fist on the conference room table.
I had been there a week as head of like
global Advertising. I was young, and she said, Marisa, this
Internet thing, it seems really important. I think we need
a strategy. And I looked at her and I said,
you want a strategy for the Internet. I said, do
(13:28):
I have a week two weeks, and that actually was
what forced me just the Internet. I was a really
really funny in nineteen ninety nine, we already knew this
Internet thing was kind of important. Meantime, all those names
of companies you listed for people who may not be
deeply in the industry, and those all became truly iconic
solution partners in the world of media, marketing, et cetera
(13:51):
from a technology standpoint. So people don't realize how deep
your roots go.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
You cannot stop the wave of technology, right And for
the folks that think they could just you know, to
put their head in the sand or ignore it, or
that you know it's not going to you know, kind
of affect me today like it is here. And just
to kind of give you a sense to dimensionalize this
when you see kind of new technologies get adopted. The
sprint to having one million users, just one million, not
(14:16):
like one hundred, not like a billion, but like it
took something like Netflix three and a half years to
reach a million users. It took something like Facebook ten
months to reach a million users. It took something like
Spotify five months to reach a million users. It took
chat shepet five days to reach a million users and
it now has over two hundred million. So this type
(14:38):
of adoption is just radical and it's so quick. And
the cool thing is all the infrastructure has now been
laid right, like we've spent the past two decades with
the foundation, where we now have the iPhone, we have cloud,
we have social media. So the rate of change is
not going to be incremental, it's going to be exponential.
And all that just led me to say, like I
(14:59):
need to do something where I could not just be
a part of this and get back into tech and
back to my roots, but also find a way to
help the community and the industry that we love, because
I think this is going to be such an important
moment for brands and how boards are going to look
at this, because boards are really going to wake up
and they're going to start to adopt and really promote
(15:21):
the use of AI across the enterprise, and it's going
to have a real impact on the way these things
are done. So that was part of the reason to
start my new firm, alphun Company, to really be this
business intelligence firm helping brands and boards and business leaders
really navigate all of the challenges, but also the opportunities
for growth in this AI era.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Why do you name it Alpha and co? Because I
think that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
As a brand guru the way you are, I certainly
consulted with you and you know, many other folks tech
for tech's sake. I've always viewed technology as a tool,
and it's always been a means to an end, and
I think a lot of people lose the thread in
terms of, you know, what is happening with AI in
this moment right now. And I feel for me, the
best way to kind of put this in context was
(16:04):
always about growth, about business growth and how is this
going to be a tool to help folks grow? And
so back to you know, kind of my finance roots,
I feel like the financial definition of alpha is understanding
the return that is created above a benchmark, right and
you know, the investor or the portfolio manager that's actually
creating that return above a benchwork like the S and
(16:26):
P five hundred or something like that, that delta that's
created that is the alpha. And I think that's what
all business leaders are trying to do. They're trying to
create growth. They're trying to grow beyond their competitors that
you know, obviously you have a business plan every year,
you know, whatever your objectives are, you want to achieve,
not just plan, you want to exceed your plan. Well,
that is really about creating alpha. And I think that
(16:48):
as we enter this you know, kind of intelligence era,
that's you know, kind of what Sam Altman, you know,
the CEO of Open AI, has kind of coined this age.
You know, we've gone from the information agent now to
the intelligence age. I really do believe that understanding how
to apply AI, your AI readiness is going to be
the single biggest driver of shareholder value. It's going to
(17:09):
be the biggest driver of professional growth and development, and
it will be the greatest ability for coming to unlock album.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
So here's what I think your move plus my move represents,
if I may, in terms of maybe the bigger lessons
for companies. Not to sound lofty that what we do
is that important.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Please, I'm curious where you're going to take this.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
I'm going to sound old school for a second, and
you know I'm.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Not old School's the best school.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Well, old and new combined is to me the best.
And what I hope think believe is interesting and true
about the rationale behind the CEO of J C. Penny
tapping me on the shoulder for this is there's a
recognition that with all the other good stuff they're doing,
they haven't found a way to make that brand come
(17:58):
back to life in a meaning way. That the other
stuff is a lot of stuff and it needs it.
And I am excited hopefully, you know, hopefully to be
able to flex those muscles. Like I said, I am
not going to simplify or be naive about what a
challenge this is and not an instantaneous thing, but it
(18:20):
excites me back to the earlier point to try. And
I think what I hope the lesson learn from our
two experiences is if you take the combination of remembering
certain fundamentals about how brands and business work, is that
we still have to tell a story, we still have
to make an emotional connection, we still have to answer
(18:41):
the questions why should I care? And then you power
that with the best of technology used responsibly and applied
the right ways. That's where I think the unbeatable duo is.
So for me, it is important to reference both sides
of that equation because I think sometimes we see the
(19:03):
pendulum swinging wildly one way or the other, and that's
where the plot gets lost. So I don't think that
you're not a storyteller. I don't think I'm not a
digital technology person. It's been a big part of my
background too. But I like the idea that both of
our new moves represent realizing like getting back to the
greatness and the magic of what we do and then
(19:25):
applying the best of the new sort of signs and
technology to it. Kind of as cool.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
I think it's very cool. Definitely not a cringe, right,
But when we come back, we're going to talk about
how we see the longer winding road of taking different
types of career paths and the challenges and opportunities when
you actually try it on. So stay tuned for what's
this nice.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
We're back and this is a bit of a different
episode and fact for those who so are close watchers
of our cadence, you know, we missed a week because
we had to kind of get together these big new
announcements we were making, and so in the spirit of
just breaking our own rules a little bit instead of
just answering one question this week on what's on your minds,
(20:16):
it feels very much in the spirit just to keep
this conversation flowing Stephen, and I think the synthesis of
where we should take the conversation now is from the
types of questions we do get most often, which is,
I'm trying to figure out how to navigate my career.
Where do you see it going? How do I position myself?
So hopefully we're leading with honesty but by example, and
(20:40):
so what do you see this all representing in terms
of careers? And how can we kind of use that
to give some advice back.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
We get a lot of questions about career development. And
I'm actually here this week in Boston also speaking tonight
at this Harvard Business School. They have their Latino Alumni Association,
and I'm going to be on a panel with some
other folks talking exactly about this about you know, kind
of career pathing, career advice, leadership development. But I think
it's just really important to understand that there is no playbook.
(21:09):
And I know that's not an answer that people like
to hear, but I think it really depends if you're
in your twenties, you know, kind of how do you
really approach you know, kind of where you are in
the early phases of your career. And I always talk
about how in your twenties. You just got to do
everything right, take any opportunity, take any type of risk,
and just go through a brick wall and just get
(21:30):
it done and try everything. And if you're in a
job that you don't like and you're in your twenties,
you know what, leave It's okay. You're young, you have
time and you can actually get something else, Try something else,
change different industries.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
You know.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
I started my career in finance. It was great. You
can make a lot of money, but it wasn't fulfilling.
And I really realized that I wanted to be an operator.
I wanted to go into tech, and that's when I
joined Akamae and so that whole kind of shift where
I was in investment banking. I had a good paying job,
I was in New York. It was a great, you know,
kind of lifestyle and experience, but I wanted to be
in tech. And it was just this moment and if
(22:02):
you you know, kind of remember back and know, you know,
so many OG's like humorous, like nineteen ninety nine, there
was this energy in the air. You just felt that
the world was your oyster. There was so much opportunity.
People were starting companies left and right, dot com was
obviously booming, but it was bigger than that, right, I mean,
if you could see past it, it was a bigger
(22:22):
technological revolution that was happening. And it was a shift,
a true shift. And so for me to not just
stay in investment banking, you know, have the golden handcuffs
because you know, you obviously get big bonuses and all
that kind of stuff. I literally, you know, was interviewing
with akama I, and you know, a lot of folks
were going to kind of you know, consumerie dot coms
in New York, but I ended up going to Alkami
(22:45):
and I got the offer on a Thursday. I quit
my job on a Friday. I packed on a Saturday,
I moved up to Boston on Sunday, and I started
on Monday.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
It was literally that quick. And so you take that
risk in your twenties, you know, in your thirties, I
think it's a little bit different where you have to
get really kind of some type of subject matter expertise
whatever it is that you're doing. But you become known
for something, right, and that could be you're known for digital,
or you're known for creative, or you're known for you know,
kind of performance marketing, or you're known for data like
(23:14):
whatever it is, but you start to develop some area
of expertise and that you know, kind of specialists. If
you don't find a way to kind of really become
known for something, I worry that people go sideways in
their careers and you could get stuck in the job
and if you're not you know, kind of you know,
necessarily moving up in your career, if you're not getting
the promotions, you know, you might be in a little
bit of a dead end, and that's probably the right
(23:36):
time to kind of seek a job somewhere else so
that you could get promoted, so you could get the
you know, the Salmar rebump, because a lot of folks
don't tell you that if you stay in a place
and you're really not moving up, you're kind of just
moving sideways and eventually you'll be moved out and so
you're probably not being fully appreciated where you are. And
then the last one probably you know, forties and beyond,
that's where you kind of become a generalist again. And
(23:56):
that's where you start to really get into this management
mode where you're now managing people or you've now kind
of seen enough of the different types of roles and responsibilities,
and you now become a manager of people. There's no
way that you're going to be in the weeds doing
kind of the details of data driven marketing or whatever
it is. But you now have enough business acumen and
you really now become the manager of people and putting
(24:18):
together teams to kind of really create the growth in
the business. And now you have your path to the
C suite and boards and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
It's really smart to frame it that way as an arc,
because wherever you are in that journey, I don't think
we often have the ability to pull back and see
it that way. I think, just going back to what
you said about the should I stay or should I go?
I know that's one of the questions as a mentor
to people that I get asked most often. And I'll
(24:44):
tell you, I think the best piece of advice in
that regard that I was ever given. And this is
for people obviously who are a place of questioning of
not feeling happy where they are. If you're happy where
you are, amazing, celebrate that. Lean into it. Like we said,
no rules of leaving either, there's no one right decision
and if you're fortunate enough to be in a place
(25:05):
that is fulfilling you in all the right ways, you're
very lucky. If you are not, then the best piece
of advice and you'll like this st. Evehn because it's
using a bit of a sports metaphor, okay, is you
got to simultaneously play your best home game and also
your best away game at the same time. And the
way I internalize that is, while you're still where you are,
(25:26):
don't check out, like give it your all, position yourself,
figure out everything you can get out of it. And
it is okay for you to do that and honor
your commitment to your place of employment while also exploring
what might be a better path for me outside of this.
And I think that idea that we can hold those
(25:48):
two things in our brains at the same time and
interactions at the same time is actually really important part
of managing a career when you're at a place where
you're not sure. That's the important you know asterisk that
goes with that. That was a really good piece of
advice for me. It's helped me get a little less emotional,
(26:08):
a little more practical in those moments of uncertainty or
questioning and think about it that way. So I hope
that's helpful to some people.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
But how do you deal with the fear, right, because
I think one of the things that holds so many
people back is the fear. And you know, when you
think of the moves that you just made, you know
certain that I made, I probably have one or two
fox left to give, as I like to say, you know,
not not anymore. But I don't care what people think
about me, right Like, I believe so much in my
(26:41):
ability to kind of make impact, to kind of help
either people, brands, boards you know, I just believe in myself.
And I think having that belief you go through all
the doubt and kind of the imposter syndrome and all
that kind of stuff. Doesn't mean that I don't fail,
doesn't mean that I don't make mistakes, but I believe
that I will figure it out. But I think a
lot of folks earlier or midway in their career, they
(27:04):
might have some of those fears, and they fear what
other people are going to think about them, and they fear,
oh my god, am I ever going to be able
to find a job, or what if I leave? And
it's not the same, like, how do you kind of
handle the fear that holds you back?
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Look, my growth is being able to publicly say I
totally still have that fear and it's a demon I've
fought my whole life. And I look to other people
like you and friends who say let that go to
try to inspire me. But I think it's equally important
to be able to acknowledge that that's still that is
a personal demon for me caring so much about what
(27:40):
other people think and trying to check that a little
bit more at the door in terms of just even
my day to day psyche and wiring. Because having courage
and doing big things, if you're going to play in
a meaningful way, it does mean that you're going to
have naysayers and you're going to have people who don't
(28:01):
get it or question you.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
I think you're being very euphemistic about that. I'll push
I think you'll have haters. Yeah, And I think there
are a lot of people that are fake, people that
are going to talk behind your back. They'll smile in
front of you, but then behind be like, oh my god,
I can't wait she took that job. You know, Like
these are the kind of things where we don't have
time for that because the differences. And I learned this
from you know, one of my you know, kind of
favorite bosses, Lisa McCarthy. She would always talk about there
(28:29):
are people that are in the bleachers and there are
people that are on the court playing the game, and
you know what, you are on the court, you are
making the place, you are actually in the role. You
now have people calling you all of a sudden that
haven't spoken to you in a long time, be like hey, Marisa,
I you're now at j c. Penney. Hey can we talk. Hey,
let's do a deal. Like all of a sudden, people
(28:50):
start coming out of the woodwork. But the people that
are in the bench, the people that are in the bleachers,
the people that are oh, like what is she doing?
Or like all the nasayers or all the haters like
they're in the bleachers, they're not in the court the
way you are playing the game. Again, another variation the
whole Teddy Roosevelt man or woman in the arena. Right,
so you are in the arena. I'm in the arena.
(29:12):
I want to be on the court playing the game
and let people criticize. But you know what, you know
what you can do and you will certainly fail, You
will certainly make mistakes, but you know what you are
playing the game. And I feel like all the sports analogies,
whether it's Michael Jordan or Messi or Ronaldo or you
you picked the athlete, everyone always talks about, you know,
all the ways that people fail and that's why they succeed.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
I also love the idea that there aren't failures. You
either win or you learn. Yes, I don't even know
to whom to ascribe that quote because many people have
said it, but I think that's right. I appreciate you
calling it out that way because part of me is
acknowledging the behind the scenes conversations of calling you and
calling me saying, well, that's a brand that you know
(29:56):
is troubled or people are going to be like, oh,
you're going there, and I you feel I've gotten stronger
about saying you don't get a vote in that decision
and you don't get it, And it also then does
become a bit of energizing fuel to say, just you wait,
look what I'm going to do, and if you can't,
that goes back to the earlier conversation, then you just
(30:18):
the conditions weren't right for you to do your thing
with it, but get in there. Whether you're using see
of course I use a dressing room, it's all good.
I love fashion, and you use a playing fuel, it's perfect.
They all work. They all work as metaphors, and there's
a reason they work as metaphors because everyone understands them
(30:39):
that it is about getting in that game, trying it on,
coming out, showing what you're wearing. And this has happened
to me as I wrote about both literally as well
as figuratively, showing your colors and knowing that some people
will be like, wait, why are you wearing that? And
it's like, because wearing this is me and it's creating
(31:01):
happiness in other people as well as myself. And if
it doesn't create happiness in you, then okay, you know
I can't help that. So gosh, I feel like I
sound defiant, and you know I don't always feel that
way about it. It's more about wanting to channel all
these lifelong lessons that we've accrued with the scars to
prove them to say, this is a time now to
(31:26):
create some new rules. And that is exciting and it
is scary, and no matter what the future is unknown?
You know, when I left a role and I had
a moment of total vulnerability at home in my bedroom
where I broke down and I'd been really strong because
I didn't really know what was going to be next.
(31:47):
And my younger daughter, who was quite young at the time,
saw me. She's always been a little philosopher avery and
she saw me, and I was embarrassed to be emotional
this way in front of my child, showing my vulnerability,
and she said, what's wrong, mommy, And I said, well,
it's just the fear of the unknown. And she looked
at me and the way only children can no irony,
(32:09):
and just said, but isn't everything in the future unknown.
It was such a perfect reframe, so true, so brilliant,
and I've carried that with me. None of us know
staying put is not certain. We don't know what's going
to happen tomorrow. We don't know what's going to happen tomorrow.
I mean, we are coming off of a week where
natural disasters have hit the western part of my adopted
(32:32):
state of North Carolina, in a place where climate was
never supposed to be a factor. People staying put had
no idea, And I don't mean to make this now lofty,
but why not. You know, it's we don't know what
tomorrow is going to bring, so all we can do
is lean in and honestly give it our all and
then be adaptable when situations or circumstances necessitate.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Ideably subscribe to that. And again, we talked to a
lot of different folks, a lot of our listeners. You know,
I've coached for over twenty years, and I always tell
folks change is inevitable, but growth is optional, and you
could choose not to grow. That is your choice. But
I think you have to look at this now in
the context again of the technological wave that we are in,
(33:18):
and this will be unlike any other. And if there's
you know, one piece of feedback that I'll give to
anyone else, sorry, talk about it tonight with the students.
This is the beginning of the AI era. This is
truly the beginning, right after Netscape, and you start to
see the boom and all the capital, like there's so
much money being flooded into this. There is so much
(33:39):
advancement that's been happening on the compute side, and understanding
the large language models that they've mastered, language. I don't
think people understand the multimodal capabilities and what is to come.
I mean, next year, I'm going to do a whole
piece on this because I'm bringing back my newsletter, so
you know, I'll kind of like have that on a
weekly basis, sharing kind of updates and all these kind
(33:59):
of things about you know, the insights and the things
that I'm seeing and the folks that I'm talking with.
Next year is going to be the year of agents,
and so everyone is just focused on the chatbot as like, oh,
it's a chatbot, it's cute. Like No, you're going to
have text to action. And once you actually have agents
taking actions on your behalf, on the behalf of a brand,
on the behalf of a company, all bets are off.
So what a great time for anyone that is listening.
(34:20):
Embrace this change. Again, the growth is optional, but grow
at this moment. This is going to be unprecedented what
we're going to see in the next three to five years.
And again you don't need to believe me. You could
think like, hey, this guy is you know Schmocker, what
is he know? Maybe Eric Schmidt, you could listen to him,
the former CEO of Google, because he's out there talking
about the next three to five years. This is going
(34:43):
to be unprecedented change and it's not incremental. It is exponential.
And the new models that we're seeing, they're coming at
a faster clip. I mean every six to twelve months,
you're going to have new models and that is going
to enable even more things. So it's just really exciting
time embrace this, take the risk, try it on. But
Holy Camerasa, like you are Jazz, I am Jazz, and
(35:06):
I just feel the energy in this moment.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
I do too, And I think the bottom line is
this marks a brand new beginning for us that we'll
be able to share these new chapters of our journeys
in hopefully authentic ways, but continuing to learn from each
other and learn from the guests that we bring on
and other people that are in our orbit and share
that because I know that's what gives us energy, is
(35:28):
to be honest and share and teach and learn. And
that virtuous cycle, which we've talked about before, is to
me one of the most important tools of success in
this crazy, ever changing world of business and also careers.
So we'll call it a day for now, but more
to come. Thank you so much for joining us. Much
(35:50):
much more to come, and we hope you'll keep with us,
so please subscribe. If you haven't, please tell us what's
on your mind by emailing us at ideas at brandsh
dot com, follow us on our socials, and we look
forward to seeing you next time. Thanks for joining us
on brand New
Hi, and thanks for joining us on Brand New from
the iHeart Podcast Network and Brand New Labs. I'm Marissa Fahlberg.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
And I'm Stephen wolf Fereda And wow, Marissa, what a
week not going on just a little bit.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
You know, it wasn't enough for one of us to
have some big career news. We both had to have
big career news. So I think what's new is what's
new in our worlds. Huh, our own worlds.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Well, I just appreciate you, uh finding the timing to
work out with me announcing my news, you announcing your news,
so it all kind of worked out. But Marissa, what
is your news? What is new with you and your gig?
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I think because so much of what we care to
do on this podcast is talk about careers in this industry,
being brave, taking chances. We're living it this week, and
we're living it in our own way and we're writing
our own rules. So I'm proud of you, I'm proud
of us, and I think it's incredibly serendipitous that we
(01:06):
get to do this, announce this the same week, and
now do it podcast talking about it. So how cool
is that? So my news is after I left Low's
I went into the world of theme parks, and I've
really tried to practice this idea That was not intentional
in the beginning when I went from Luxury Beauty to
(01:27):
Taco Bell and that was so anachronistic to people, including myself,
of course, but I loved realizing the way you can
use lateral thinking to make yourself a better leader, in
my case, a better marketer by finding the connection points
that aren't obvious. It's very obvious to say what's different
between those two things, and so that became a driving
(01:50):
principle for me, and that's why I wanted to do
the hardest thing I could do, which was big box
home improvement retail on. As it turns out, leading that
company through the pandemic was an incredible strange moment of happenstance.
So going to theme parks felt like a continuation of that.
No one knew what I was going to do next,
but you know, there were aspects there that just weren't
(02:12):
in keeping with allowing me to do all the things
that I love to do. Even though I a big
shout out to the team I worked with, whom I
absolutely adored and adore, so that got me thinking about
this idea that sometimes you want to be able to
try things on first and really see, especially for those
of us who are really meant to be agents of transformation,
(02:35):
because if you're going to be in a situation where
you're asked to do things differently, you have to get
on the ground and find out you're actually going to
be equipped to do it. So I wrote a piece
on LinkedIn this week, which, by the way, thank you,
called try it on, and I use the metaphor of
a dressing room, and all that was to say, like,
I hope our listeners read it because it's better read
(02:57):
than me trying to recreate it and describe it. But
the point is I decided to do something a little
differently this time and try on a new role first.
When I met the most incredible CEO, we had an
instant sense of just c of who I'm getting there,
CEO of the retailer, a troubled retailer, not going to
(03:18):
soften the edges of that. You know. My first reaction was, ugh,
could I take this on? And he had the vision
to say, well, we could do this as a consulting CMO,
and he understood that I would want to try it
on and that enabled me to say yes, and that
CEO is Mark Rosen and the company's J. C. Penny.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
So great, congratulations, thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
And look, I know, I know this is going to
be hard because there are a lot of headwinds on
this business.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
I also know, well, retail's hard. Any job is hard, right,
I mean honestly in this day and age, no step.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Yes, that's true. And so then you have to peel
it back and say, what are the conditions that are
going to make this fruitful for me? Satisfying for me?
And you realize it's not just is this business on fire?
It's is this business one where the conditions are such,
the people are such that I think I could do
(04:17):
what I do or at least try right. And that's
so much of what showing up is is trying and
giving it your all. And I'm really ready and excited
to give this my all. Everyone I've met so far
has been amazing. I see the potential. So I'm now
the consulting chief Marketing Officer and that's in my title
(04:39):
now by design, and I love that. I love writing
some different rules and you know what, it allows me
to still do this with you. It allows me to
still do some of the other things I do time permitting,
because of course time is our biggest fight in all this.
But I'm excited, so meantime I go say yes to
a big, crazy, new, exciting corporate job. And let's talk
(04:59):
about what you just announced. Gus. Our paths are just
inverted in the funniest way.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I know. I know, it's very very funny. That's the
way the universe kind of works sometimes.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Our universe.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Yeah, first off, kudos to you, and I love the
whole metaphor of trying it on.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
And I think in this day and age, to see
the path where there is no path, and I think
this is one of the biggest fallacies. And I helpe
all of our listeners really kind of internalize this. There
is no path and there is no oh you should
be doing this, and the expectations that people have, oh well,
(05:35):
you went from this firm and then you went to
that firm, and you know the people that are going
to be like, oh, well, why did she take that
job and why did she do this? Like all those
haters they could just go, you know, jump off a bridge.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
The reality is there is no path and the fact
that you are taking control of your career, that we
are all entering this phase where you're taking this portfolio
approach to your career. And I really believe that trying
something on is such a powerful metaphor because you have
to take these calculated risks. And I've always believed in,
(06:08):
you know, kind of calculated risk, whether it's you know, financially,
you know, whether it's professionally, but understanding that you are
doing something that is certainly applying your skills, your understanding
of retail and brands and consumers and creative and fashion.
I haven't seen you this energize in a long time,
and it's just really exciting to see you take on
(06:29):
this role.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Thank you, and I want to get to your news,
but I'd love to just say one more thing about
that try it on philosophy as an important point of clarification,
which is that it should not be confused with only
putting one toe in the pool and not really giving
it your all. Anyone who knows me knows I'm all
in and I'm giving it my all, but what it
(06:50):
really and it's It's taken me lots of bumps and
bruises and a lot of fear of what other people think,
as you well know, and I'll be vulnerable and say
that it is hard to say there is no path.
And I'm not going to be defensive about well, why
I stayed here long but here shorter because the try
it on. The reason why I wanted to write that
(07:11):
is because it is about finding your courage to do
things that might have risk, because most good things do.
And the fine print on risks that very few people
talk about. We certainly don't mythologize this in culture. We
only celebrate the entrepreneur who lived in the back of
their car and is now a multi millionaire. Risks are risky,
(07:31):
that's the fine print. So if you are going to
lean in and take risks, what comes with that is
some risk won't pay out the way you think. And
what I meant to say in this piece is that
being okay and I'm not totally okay with it. This
is like something I'm trying to condition myself to to
dust yourself off and say that wasn't right because I
(07:54):
wasn't right. We weren't exactly right. Maybe together or I
see a bigger, better place to channel my energies and
my talents That's what it is. It's not about giving up,
it's not about failure, it's not about being showing a
lack of commitment. I am all in on this. I'm
all in on everything I do. But it also is
(08:16):
about having a mindset to realize that gives you permission
to try. And I would be very happy if the
takeaway of anyone who reads the piece about trying it
on drops it on and just takes away the idea
of try.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
It's just this whole, you know, kind of philosophy around
failure and this whole fear of you know, messing up,
of you know, what people are going to think. I mean,
the ho idea is, don't be afraid to fail, be
afraid of never trying. Failure is truly a stepping stone
to success. And again I feel like I will take
a step forward and if I fail, I've learned from that.
(08:53):
And then you try something on, you you go forward.
But I just reallycommend you, and I think it's an
inspiration and I hope more folks take these types of
calculator risks and if it doesn't work out, that's fine.
You'll do something else because you were smart, you have
experience and I just really believe that we're entering this
new phase again, and you know, it's certainly tied to
(09:13):
kind of what I'm trying to do now, but I
feel like we're in a moment where the way that
we think about work is going to radically change in
this AI era.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
All Right, Well, that's a lovely segue speaking of trying
and work changing and all that to what you're doing next.
So let's talk about you.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Now, this has been kind of a long time coming.
I'm actually in Boston recording this episode with you, but
I'm here partly to kind of celebrate with some friends
the twenty fifth anniversary of me joining this little startup
that came out of MIT called Akamai Technologies. And it's
kind of crazy that it's been twenty five years. That
(09:55):
certainly sounds like I've gray hair and old, But it
was a moment when I joined in nineteen ninety nine.
This was truly the beginning of phase one of the Internet,
of the whole kind of boom that we kind of saw.
And I feel like in ninety five when Netscape went public,
that was really, you know, kind of the first true
(10:16):
catalyst that launched the Internet boom. And you know, fast forward.
You know, I've been working in tech for a very
long time. I think a lot of folks in the
industry know me from my marketing and media and agency days,
but I had this whole other career before that, and
it was always in tech.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
You know.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
I started in you know, finance and in private equity
doing tech media and telecom, and then I joined DOKAMAI
and their engineering group and their network infrastructure group, and
that was really, you know, kind of the early days
of the Internet. But they were also the leader in
you know, kind of using machine learning and you know,
early days of AI and applying it to you know,
the Internet. The co founder of the company doctor Tom Layton.
(10:54):
He was literally the guy that wrote the book on
parallel computing. He was the head of the lab for
computer science in my t and he's currently the CEO
of Akama today. And Akama is still a very successful company.
It's like, you know, fifteen sixteen billion dollars in market cap,
the tickers akam. If you haven't you seen the company,
check it out. But fast forward, when chat GBT came
out in November of twenty two, it was just this
(11:17):
moment and it was so shocking to me because I've
seen all these different waves of kind of folks trying
to do things in AI, but this was the first
true consumer application, the first true instance of Wow, we're
having this magical moment. And for me, that was the
Netscape Navigator moment of the AI era, and I could
not get it out of my head. I was like,
(11:38):
holy cow, this is going to change everything. And I
know it sounds like hyperbole and everyone's on the AI train,
but again, I've been doing this for twenty five plus years.
I mean I vividly remember when I got to you know,
Data Logics and they were using machine learning to kind
of figure out how to you know, tye purchase data
from online ads to offline. Then at Oracle Data Cloud
and then new Star, and then at this company Concast,
(11:59):
which you know, the co founder Conrad Development PhD in
machine learning, and we were trying to do all this
stuff around AI driven behavioral analytics. And I remember convening
you know kind of folks you know in can in
like you know, I think seventeen and twenty eighteen nineteen,
and it was just too early. People were interested, but
it didn't have the application. And now we finally have
(12:20):
the first consumer application, and now everything changes.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
So what you've said before on this podcast, even over
the course of episodes where we've certainly been joking that
AI makes its way into every conversation, and I think
you've been very quick to point out artificial intelligence was
not born a year and a half ago. But that
was that kind of defining moment with chrat GPT where
(12:45):
suddenly the gates opened in terms of how average people,
everyday people could suddenly apply it. And I think that's
what's so interesting about your background is you were there
at the beginning. When you say nineteen ninety nine, what
makes me laugh is that that's the year I date
the beginning of my own digital marketing journey because I
was at Unilever Cosmetics, Calvin Klein Cosmetics. And this is
(13:08):
just a really quick funny story. The CEOs, this big
boisterous woman, banged her fist on the conference room table.
I had been there a week as head of like
global Advertising. I was young, and she said, Marisa, this
Internet thing, it seems really important. I think we need
a strategy. And I looked at her and I said,
you want a strategy for the Internet. I said, do
(13:28):
I have a week two weeks, and that actually was
what forced me just the Internet. I was a really
really funny in nineteen ninety nine, we already knew this
Internet thing was kind of important. Meantime, all those names
of companies you listed for people who may not be
deeply in the industry, and those all became truly iconic
solution partners in the world of media, marketing, et cetera
(13:51):
from a technology standpoint. So people don't realize how deep
your roots go.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
You cannot stop the wave of technology, right And for
the folks that think they could just you know, to
put their head in the sand or ignore it, or
that you know it's not going to you know, kind
of affect me today like it is here. And just
to kind of give you a sense to dimensionalize this
when you see kind of new technologies get adopted. The
sprint to having one million users, just one million, not
(14:16):
like one hundred, not like a billion, but like it
took something like Netflix three and a half years to
reach a million users. It took something like Facebook ten
months to reach a million users. It took something like
Spotify five months to reach a million users. It took
chat shepet five days to reach a million users and
it now has over two hundred million. So this type
(14:38):
of adoption is just radical and it's so quick. And
the cool thing is all the infrastructure has now been
laid right, like we've spent the past two decades with
the foundation, where we now have the iPhone, we have cloud,
we have social media. So the rate of change is
not going to be incremental, it's going to be exponential.
And all that just led me to say, like I
(14:59):
need to do something where I could not just be
a part of this and get back into tech and
back to my roots, but also find a way to
help the community and the industry that we love, because
I think this is going to be such an important
moment for brands and how boards are going to look
at this, because boards are really going to wake up
and they're going to start to adopt and really promote
(15:21):
the use of AI across the enterprise, and it's going
to have a real impact on the way these things
are done. So that was part of the reason to
start my new firm, alphun Company, to really be this
business intelligence firm helping brands and boards and business leaders
really navigate all of the challenges, but also the opportunities
for growth in this AI era.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Why do you name it Alpha and co? Because I
think that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
As a brand guru the way you are, I certainly
consulted with you and you know, many other folks tech
for tech's sake. I've always viewed technology as a tool,
and it's always been a means to an end, and
I think a lot of people lose the thread in
terms of, you know, what is happening with AI in
this moment right now. And I feel for me, the
best way to kind of put this in context was
(16:04):
always about growth, about business growth and how is this
going to be a tool to help folks grow? And
so back to you know, kind of my finance roots,
I feel like the financial definition of alpha is understanding
the return that is created above a benchmark, right and
you know, the investor or the portfolio manager that's actually
creating that return above a benchwork like the S and
(16:26):
P five hundred or something like that, that delta that's
created that is the alpha. And I think that's what
all business leaders are trying to do. They're trying to
create growth. They're trying to grow beyond their competitors that
you know, obviously you have a business plan every year,
you know, whatever your objectives are, you want to achieve,
not just plan, you want to exceed your plan. Well,
that is really about creating alpha. And I think that
(16:48):
as we enter this you know, kind of intelligence era,
that's you know, kind of what Sam Altman, you know,
the CEO of Open AI, has kind of coined this age.
You know, we've gone from the information agent now to
the intelligence age. I really do believe that understanding how
to apply AI, your AI readiness is going to be
the single biggest driver of shareholder value. It's going to
(17:09):
be the biggest driver of professional growth and development, and
it will be the greatest ability for coming to unlock album.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
So here's what I think your move plus my move represents,
if I may, in terms of maybe the bigger lessons
for companies. Not to sound lofty that what we do
is that important.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Please, I'm curious where you're going to take this.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
I'm going to sound old school for a second, and
you know I'm.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Not old School's the best school.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Well, old and new combined is to me the best.
And what I hope think believe is interesting and true
about the rationale behind the CEO of J C. Penny
tapping me on the shoulder for this is there's a
recognition that with all the other good stuff they're doing,
they haven't found a way to make that brand come
(17:58):
back to life in a meaning way. That the other
stuff is a lot of stuff and it needs it.
And I am excited hopefully, you know, hopefully to be
able to flex those muscles. Like I said, I am
not going to simplify or be naive about what a
challenge this is and not an instantaneous thing, but it
(18:20):
excites me back to the earlier point to try. And
I think what I hope the lesson learn from our
two experiences is if you take the combination of remembering
certain fundamentals about how brands and business work, is that
we still have to tell a story, we still have
to make an emotional connection, we still have to answer
(18:41):
the questions why should I care? And then you power
that with the best of technology used responsibly and applied
the right ways. That's where I think the unbeatable duo is.
So for me, it is important to reference both sides
of that equation because I think sometimes we see the
(19:03):
pendulum swinging wildly one way or the other, and that's
where the plot gets lost. So I don't think that
you're not a storyteller. I don't think I'm not a
digital technology person. It's been a big part of my
background too. But I like the idea that both of
our new moves represent realizing like getting back to the
greatness and the magic of what we do and then
(19:25):
applying the best of the new sort of signs and
technology to it. Kind of as cool.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
I think it's very cool. Definitely not a cringe, right,
But when we come back, we're going to talk about
how we see the longer winding road of taking different
types of career paths and the challenges and opportunities when
you actually try it on. So stay tuned for what's
this nice.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
We're back and this is a bit of a different
episode and fact for those who so are close watchers
of our cadence, you know, we missed a week because
we had to kind of get together these big new
announcements we were making, and so in the spirit of
just breaking our own rules a little bit instead of
just answering one question this week on what's on your minds,
(20:16):
it feels very much in the spirit just to keep
this conversation flowing Stephen, and I think the synthesis of
where we should take the conversation now is from the
types of questions we do get most often, which is,
I'm trying to figure out how to navigate my career.
Where do you see it going? How do I position myself?
So hopefully we're leading with honesty but by example, and
(20:40):
so what do you see this all representing in terms
of careers? And how can we kind of use that
to give some advice back.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
We get a lot of questions about career development. And
I'm actually here this week in Boston also speaking tonight
at this Harvard Business School. They have their Latino Alumni Association,
and I'm going to be on a panel with some
other folks talking exactly about this about you know, kind
of career pathing, career advice, leadership development. But I think
it's just really important to understand that there is no playbook.
(21:09):
And I know that's not an answer that people like
to hear, but I think it really depends if you're
in your twenties, you know, kind of how do you
really approach you know, kind of where you are in
the early phases of your career. And I always talk
about how in your twenties. You just got to do
everything right, take any opportunity, take any type of risk,
and just go through a brick wall and just get
(21:30):
it done and try everything. And if you're in a
job that you don't like and you're in your twenties,
you know what, leave It's okay. You're young, you have
time and you can actually get something else, Try something else,
change different industries.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
You know.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
I started my career in finance. It was great. You
can make a lot of money, but it wasn't fulfilling.
And I really realized that I wanted to be an operator.
I wanted to go into tech, and that's when I
joined Akamae and so that whole kind of shift where
I was in investment banking. I had a good paying job,
I was in New York. It was a great, you know,
kind of lifestyle and experience, but I wanted to be
in tech. And it was just this moment and if
(22:02):
you you know, kind of remember back and know, you know,
so many OG's like humorous, like nineteen ninety nine, there
was this energy in the air. You just felt that
the world was your oyster. There was so much opportunity.
People were starting companies left and right, dot com was
obviously booming, but it was bigger than that, right, I mean,
if you could see past it, it was a bigger
(22:22):
technological revolution that was happening. And it was a shift,
a true shift. And so for me to not just
stay in investment banking, you know, have the golden handcuffs
because you know, you obviously get big bonuses and all
that kind of stuff. I literally, you know, was interviewing
with akama I, and you know, a lot of folks
were going to kind of you know, consumerie dot coms
in New York, but I ended up going to Alkami
(22:45):
and I got the offer on a Thursday. I quit
my job on a Friday. I packed on a Saturday,
I moved up to Boston on Sunday, and I started
on Monday.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
It was literally that quick. And so you take that
risk in your twenties, you know, in your thirties, I
think it's a little bit different where you have to
get really kind of some type of subject matter expertise
whatever it is that you're doing. But you become known
for something, right, and that could be you're known for digital,
or you're known for creative, or you're known for you know,
kind of performance marketing, or you're known for data like
(23:14):
whatever it is, but you start to develop some area
of expertise and that you know, kind of specialists. If
you don't find a way to kind of really become
known for something, I worry that people go sideways in
their careers and you could get stuck in the job
and if you're not you know, kind of you know,
necessarily moving up in your career, if you're not getting
the promotions, you know, you might be in a little
bit of a dead end, and that's probably the right
(23:36):
time to kind of seek a job somewhere else so
that you could get promoted, so you could get the
you know, the Salmar rebump, because a lot of folks
don't tell you that if you stay in a place
and you're really not moving up, you're kind of just
moving sideways and eventually you'll be moved out and so
you're probably not being fully appreciated where you are. And
then the last one probably you know, forties and beyond,
that's where you kind of become a generalist again. And
(23:56):
that's where you start to really get into this management
mode where you're now managing people or you've now kind
of seen enough of the different types of roles and responsibilities,
and you now become a manager of people. There's no
way that you're going to be in the weeds doing
kind of the details of data driven marketing or whatever
it is. But you now have enough business acumen and
you really now become the manager of people and putting
(24:18):
together teams to kind of really create the growth in
the business. And now you have your path to the
C suite and boards and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
It's really smart to frame it that way as an arc,
because wherever you are in that journey, I don't think
we often have the ability to pull back and see
it that way. I think, just going back to what
you said about the should I stay or should I go?
I know that's one of the questions as a mentor
to people that I get asked most often. And I'll
(24:44):
tell you, I think the best piece of advice in
that regard that I was ever given. And this is
for people obviously who are a place of questioning of
not feeling happy where they are. If you're happy where
you are, amazing, celebrate that. Lean into it. Like we said,
no rules of leaving either, there's no one right decision
and if you're fortunate enough to be in a place
(25:05):
that is fulfilling you in all the right ways, you're
very lucky. If you are not, then the best piece
of advice and you'll like this st. Evehn because it's
using a bit of a sports metaphor, okay, is you
got to simultaneously play your best home game and also
your best away game at the same time. And the
way I internalize that is, while you're still where you are,
(25:26):
don't check out, like give it your all, position yourself,
figure out everything you can get out of it. And
it is okay for you to do that and honor
your commitment to your place of employment while also exploring
what might be a better path for me outside of this.
And I think that idea that we can hold those
(25:48):
two things in our brains at the same time and
interactions at the same time is actually really important part
of managing a career when you're at a place where
you're not sure. That's the important you know asterisk that
goes with that. That was a really good piece of
advice for me. It's helped me get a little less emotional,
(26:08):
a little more practical in those moments of uncertainty or
questioning and think about it that way. So I hope
that's helpful to some people.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
But how do you deal with the fear, right, because
I think one of the things that holds so many
people back is the fear. And you know, when you
think of the moves that you just made, you know
certain that I made, I probably have one or two
fox left to give, as I like to say, you know,
not not anymore. But I don't care what people think
about me, right Like, I believe so much in my
(26:41):
ability to kind of make impact, to kind of help
either people, brands, boards you know, I just believe in myself.
And I think having that belief you go through all
the doubt and kind of the imposter syndrome and all
that kind of stuff. Doesn't mean that I don't fail,
doesn't mean that I don't make mistakes, but I believe
that I will figure it out. But I think a
lot of folks earlier or midway in their career, they
(27:04):
might have some of those fears, and they fear what
other people are going to think about them, and they fear,
oh my god, am I ever going to be able
to find a job, or what if I leave? And
it's not the same, like, how do you kind of
handle the fear that holds you back?
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Look, my growth is being able to publicly say I
totally still have that fear and it's a demon I've
fought my whole life. And I look to other people
like you and friends who say let that go to
try to inspire me. But I think it's equally important
to be able to acknowledge that that's still that is
a personal demon for me caring so much about what
(27:40):
other people think and trying to check that a little
bit more at the door in terms of just even
my day to day psyche and wiring. Because having courage
and doing big things, if you're going to play in
a meaningful way, it does mean that you're going to
have naysayers and you're going to have people who don't
(28:01):
get it or question you.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
I think you're being very euphemistic about that. I'll push
I think you'll have haters. Yeah, And I think there
are a lot of people that are fake, people that
are going to talk behind your back. They'll smile in
front of you, but then behind be like, oh my god,
I can't wait she took that job. You know, Like
these are the kind of things where we don't have
time for that because the differences. And I learned this
from you know, one of my you know, kind of
favorite bosses, Lisa McCarthy. She would always talk about there
(28:29):
are people that are in the bleachers and there are
people that are on the court playing the game, and
you know what, you are on the court, you are
making the place, you are actually in the role. You
now have people calling you all of a sudden that
haven't spoken to you in a long time, be like hey, Marisa,
I you're now at j c. Penney. Hey can we talk. Hey,
let's do a deal. Like all of a sudden, people
(28:50):
start coming out of the woodwork. But the people that
are in the bench, the people that are in the bleachers,
the people that are oh, like what is she doing?
Or like all the nasayers or all the haters like
they're in the bleachers, they're not in the court the
way you are playing the game. Again, another variation the
whole Teddy Roosevelt man or woman in the arena. Right,
so you are in the arena. I'm in the arena.
(29:12):
I want to be on the court playing the game
and let people criticize. But you know what, you know
what you can do and you will certainly fail, You
will certainly make mistakes, but you know what you are
playing the game. And I feel like all the sports analogies,
whether it's Michael Jordan or Messi or Ronaldo or you
you picked the athlete, everyone always talks about, you know,
all the ways that people fail and that's why they succeed.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
I also love the idea that there aren't failures. You
either win or you learn. Yes, I don't even know
to whom to ascribe that quote because many people have
said it, but I think that's right. I appreciate you
calling it out that way because part of me is
acknowledging the behind the scenes conversations of calling you and
calling me saying, well, that's a brand that you know
(29:56):
is troubled or people are going to be like, oh,
you're going there, and I you feel I've gotten stronger
about saying you don't get a vote in that decision
and you don't get it, And it also then does
become a bit of energizing fuel to say, just you wait,
look what I'm going to do, and if you can't,
that goes back to the earlier conversation, then you just
(30:18):
the conditions weren't right for you to do your thing
with it, but get in there. Whether you're using see
of course I use a dressing room, it's all good.
I love fashion, and you use a playing fuel, it's perfect.
They all work. They all work as metaphors, and there's
a reason they work as metaphors because everyone understands them
(30:39):
that it is about getting in that game, trying it on,
coming out, showing what you're wearing. And this has happened
to me as I wrote about both literally as well
as figuratively, showing your colors and knowing that some people
will be like, wait, why are you wearing that? And
it's like, because wearing this is me and it's creating
(31:01):
happiness in other people as well as myself. And if
it doesn't create happiness in you, then okay, you know
I can't help that. So gosh, I feel like I
sound defiant, and you know I don't always feel that
way about it. It's more about wanting to channel all
these lifelong lessons that we've accrued with the scars to
prove them to say, this is a time now to
(31:26):
create some new rules. And that is exciting and it
is scary, and no matter what the future is unknown?
You know, when I left a role and I had
a moment of total vulnerability at home in my bedroom
where I broke down and I'd been really strong because
I didn't really know what was going to be next.
(31:47):
And my younger daughter, who was quite young at the time,
saw me. She's always been a little philosopher avery and
she saw me, and I was embarrassed to be emotional
this way in front of my child, showing my vulnerability,
and she said, what's wrong, mommy, And I said, well,
it's just the fear of the unknown. And she looked
at me and the way only children can no irony,
(32:09):
and just said, but isn't everything in the future unknown.
It was such a perfect reframe, so true, so brilliant,
and I've carried that with me. None of us know
staying put is not certain. We don't know what's going
to happen tomorrow. We don't know what's going to happen tomorrow.
I mean, we are coming off of a week where
natural disasters have hit the western part of my adopted
(32:32):
state of North Carolina, in a place where climate was
never supposed to be a factor. People staying put had
no idea, And I don't mean to make this now lofty,
but why not. You know, it's we don't know what
tomorrow is going to bring, so all we can do
is lean in and honestly give it our all and
then be adaptable when situations or circumstances necessitate.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Ideably subscribe to that. And again, we talked to a
lot of different folks, a lot of our listeners. You know,
I've coached for over twenty years, and I always tell
folks change is inevitable, but growth is optional, and you
could choose not to grow. That is your choice. But
I think you have to look at this now in
the context again of the technological wave that we are in,
(33:18):
and this will be unlike any other. And if there's
you know, one piece of feedback that I'll give to
anyone else, sorry, talk about it tonight with the students.
This is the beginning of the AI era. This is
truly the beginning, right after Netscape, and you start to
see the boom and all the capital, like there's so
much money being flooded into this. There is so much
(33:39):
advancement that's been happening on the compute side, and understanding
the large language models that they've mastered, language. I don't
think people understand the multimodal capabilities and what is to come.
I mean, next year, I'm going to do a whole
piece on this because I'm bringing back my newsletter, so
you know, I'll kind of like have that on a
weekly basis, sharing kind of updates and all these kind
(33:59):
of things about you know, the insights and the things
that I'm seeing and the folks that I'm talking with.
Next year is going to be the year of agents,
and so everyone is just focused on the chatbot as like, oh,
it's a chatbot, it's cute. Like No, you're going to
have text to action. And once you actually have agents
taking actions on your behalf, on the behalf of a brand,
on the behalf of a company, all bets are off.
So what a great time for anyone that is listening.
(34:20):
Embrace this change. Again, the growth is optional, but grow
at this moment. This is going to be unprecedented what
we're going to see in the next three to five years.
And again you don't need to believe me. You could
think like, hey, this guy is you know Schmocker, what
is he know? Maybe Eric Schmidt, you could listen to him,
the former CEO of Google, because he's out there talking
about the next three to five years. This is going
(34:43):
to be unprecedented change and it's not incremental. It is exponential.
And the new models that we're seeing, they're coming at
a faster clip. I mean every six to twelve months,
you're going to have new models and that is going
to enable even more things. So it's just really exciting
time embrace this, take the risk, try it on. But
Holy Camerasa, like you are Jazz, I am Jazz, and
(35:06):
I just feel the energy in this moment.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
I do too, And I think the bottom line is
this marks a brand new beginning for us that we'll
be able to share these new chapters of our journeys
in hopefully authentic ways, but continuing to learn from each
other and learn from the guests that we bring on
and other people that are in our orbit and share
that because I know that's what gives us energy, is
(35:28):
to be honest and share and teach and learn. And
that virtuous cycle, which we've talked about before, is to
me one of the most important tools of success in
this crazy, ever changing world of business and also careers.
So we'll call it a day for now, but more
to come. Thank you so much for joining us. Much
(35:50):
much more to come, and we hope you'll keep with us,
so please subscribe. If you haven't, please tell us what's
on your mind by emailing us at ideas at brandsh
dot com, follow us on our socials, and we look
forward to seeing you next time. Thanks for joining us
on brand New
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