March 9, 2020 • 28 mins
We’re excited to introduce “Broken Harts” fans to “What I Wore When,” a new show from Glamour and iHeartRadio. Here’s a special episode featuring “Broken Harts” host Justine Harman talking about what she wore on one of the most difficult days of her life: her best friend’s funeral.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, Broken Hearts listeners. My name is Perry Samaton, and
I've worked with your host, Justine Harmon at Glamor Magazine
for years. I'm really excited to share a different kind
of podcast featuring Justine. It's a new show from Glamor
and I Heart Radio, and it's called What I Wore When.
Our powerful episode with Justine is something I really believe
should be required listening for all Broken Heart subscribers. I
(00:21):
hope you like it, and I hope you subscribe to
What I Wore When. Welcome to What I Wore When,
a production of Glamour and I Heart Radio. I'm your host,
Perry Samatons. Each week, I'm sitting down with a woman
I find fascinating to talk about what she wore during
a pivotal moment in her life. We're using the power
(00:43):
of style to tell the stories you haven't heard. If
you're a podcast fan, and I'm going to assume you are,
then you probably devoured Broken Hearts last fall, a serialized
true crime story about the Heart family that's been downloaded
more than nine million times. The podcast stem from an
(01:05):
investigative story my colleague Justine Harmon was working on for Glamour,
where she was the features director. Now a freelance writer
and podcaster, be on the lookout for a very exciting
new audio series from her this winter. Justine has also
been an editor at l and People magazine. I've always
found Justine to be a compelling person to talk to.
(01:25):
She's someone I describe as no bullshit, which is the
type of woman I tend to gravitate toward. She's always
willing to share a lot of herself publicly, which is
what she did when we sat down to record this
episode in January, three weeks after she delivered her daughter,
Justine's childhood best friend tragically passed away. Suddenly. She was
(01:47):
faced with the dilemma what to her to a funeral
when you're not only grieving, but also breastfeeding and recovering
from a C section. This week, Justine explains what she
wore tore her best friend's general and why it wasn't
as easy as just throwing on a black dress. Here's
our conversation. I want to start by asking you what
(02:15):
I ask everyone, what are you wearing today? That's a
great question. Um, I'm wearing an Ula Johnson Schmata. It's red,
it has blue and white flowers and some like burgundy
stitching down the steams, which I think is pretty cute.
And then I'm wearing a pair of Chloe black heels.
Um They're my favorite. They're super comfortable. They're from a
(02:37):
few years ago, and I've had to get them refurbished
like three or four times at Leather Spa. And for
those who don't know leather Spa, it is a spa
for leather goods in New York that can take the
most beat up heels and turn them back into what
they looked like when you bought them. And I've had
to revert them to their original state three or four times.
I love them that much. And for those who don't
(02:59):
know what a shmata is, please define. I think you
could probably define it better, Perry. Shmata is probably a
Yiddish word address, although I feel like that word also
is kind of negative. Shmata is like a sack, Well,
it has sack elements, but it's super short, so it's
(03:19):
like a hot shmata. Okay, you're wearing a really pretty
floral dress. Is really what you're wearing? Well, okay, Sata Santa,
you were going to share a very personal story about
what you wore when you lost your best friend and
how long ago is this? This was in January, my
best friend from growing up, not so much someone I
(03:40):
was day to day in contact with, but someone who
just had so much to do with who I was
as a person, who I am as a person. Um.
She died at the age of thirty four. I don't wanna,
I don't want to like explain the nature of the death,
but let's just say it was in her sleep, and
it um it wasn't really natural causes. Um, and she
(04:02):
struggled a lot with a variety of substance issues. Explained
to me what you wore in the way that you
paid your respect to her. So she died in January.
I believe it was on the fifth. And on December eleven,
I welcomed my second child and I had to have
(04:22):
a C section. I had a C section with my
first baby, and then it's sort of the whole story.
But um, so I guess it's less than a month
after I had the baby, I found out my friend
had died rather suddenly, and I had to a matter
of days get down to d c where I'm from,
and pay my respects to her at the synagogue where
(04:42):
we went to Hebrew school for five or six years together.
We were always together. Um our parents lived kind of
blocks away, we went to the same school. We looked alike,
we talked alike, we did everything together. But Um, I
had to figure out what to wear to this funeral.
And I was larger than my clothing, and I didn't
(05:06):
want to wear my you know, maternity clothes. It was
the middle of winner. Um I had to figure out
what to wear that would make sense, not only for
the funeral component, but then there was Shiva and borrow
thing in between. And on top of it all, I
was seeing people from home, people I grew up with,
an ex boyfriend, old friends, old crushes, old teachers, parents
(05:30):
of old friends. I wanted to look a certain way.
I wanted to look professional and respectful, and I wanted
to look pretty, which I hadn't felt in quite some time.
So picking out what to wear was challenging. And I
also didn't want to go buy anything because it wouldn't
fit in you know, optimistically, it wouldn't fit in a
matter of weeks or months. So I just tried to
(05:52):
figure out what to wear from what I had, and
I also had to be mindful of the scar in
my abdomen um, which was super tender still being that
I think I was still taking painkillers. To be honest, Um,
I also was pumping, so I had to wear something
that was pump accessible. So it was a quite an
equation to figure out what to wear to this. I
(06:12):
mean so many different elements and so many things. So
I wore um a pair of Pruenza Schooler trousers that
I had gotten on netaport eight years ago and that
have been for me a pair of pants that always
look good. Somehow they fit, I mean, it wasn't like
a great fit, but I was able to zip them
(06:33):
and they're like a nice woolves so they weren't super
itchy over the scar. And I wore a cropped Victoria
Beckham sweater that I've had to again get redone because
I wear it so off and it's navy and it
has a little bit of a peplum shape. It's cropped,
and it has ivory around the bottom and ivory around
the sleeves. I felt good in it. Um, I thought
(06:54):
it's sort of faked a silhouette I didn't really have
at the time. And then I wore, um, a pair
of Aldo booties um that are patent that are super
super comfortable. Um. And they're actually my second pair of
those Aldo booties because I've wore them all winter long.
And you and I discussed earlier that after you have
a baby, or at least I experienced that my feet changed. Um,
(07:16):
they hurt, can really wear heels, So these Aldo shoes
are comfortable. Um. So all in all, I figured it out.
I felt like I looked nice and respectful but also
kind of cute. It was. Yeah, it was a hard
thing to figure out. Have you ever worn that outfit again?
And if so, has the meaning of the alfa change
for you? In any way? I haven't worn the sweater again, um,
(07:39):
and I probably never will if I'm being honest. I
just am now turned off by it. And that happens
to me. Sometimes there's a lot of emotional significance, I
think in the clothes that we wear and when we
wear them, you know, love loss and what I wore.
I'll probably give this sweater away. The pants, however, I
wore a week later on national television when I went
(08:02):
on the Doctor Oz Show. Um, I wore the same pants. Um,
these pants have been with me for five years. They
don't mean anything to me other than there a nice
pair of pants, um, so I'll wear those again. But
the sweater, yeah, I think I'm done with it. The
day itself was really hard. So the idea of feeling
like you look nice to me isn't necessarily a vanity
(08:24):
driven thing. It's more it's a protective layer. Um. I
didn't want to think about what I was wearing. I
didn't want to be insecure. I wanted to feel the
feelings I was feeling, which were really confusing. I wanted
the last thing that I thought about to be what
I was wearing. And I think, you know, we all
want to feel like that. We want to feel comfortable
(08:46):
and like we're present, and the things we have on
our body can be a hindrance UM to that experience.
So once I got the outfit figured out, I didn't
give it actually that much thought anymore. I was comfortable enough,
was warm enough, um, and I was appropriately dressed, which
is obviously the thing of utmost importance. But the day itself,
(09:07):
I mean, it sucked and it continues to suck. My friend,
who I loved, who is the reason I even knew
what style was. She was the ultimate cool girl growing up.
She taught me everything I know about Delia's and Steve
Madden and um, I guess part of me wanted her.
(09:30):
I don't know. I can't even I don't really even
know how to talk about it, to be honest, but
she was there. I could feel her. I hope she
thought I looked cute. Um she always did, so Yeah,
I understand the sentiment of wanting to look and feel
your best even during a trying time, and it not
(09:53):
being related to vanity, because I kind of feel like,
even in the most miserable circumstance, I think a lot
of us can be preoccupied with knowing that we don't
look great or feel great, and instead of giving the
event or the instance or wherever you are the respect
it deserves, you're stuck thinking about yourself and you're like,
(10:14):
I don't feel good in the sweater, it's too tight,
I feel like my but looks too big, or I'm
not And I really think that respecting the way you
look yourself in turn, can make you respect a situation
a lot more. I also think as you get older,
you recognize that dress codes aren't just a buzz kill. Um,
it's about etiquette and what's appropriate. And I think I've
(10:35):
definitely shown up at black tie affairs wearing something that's
not appropriate. And I've gone to funerals and maybe not
thought about what I was wearing enough, and I really
wanted to be respectful and what I was wearing, and
it was a hard thing to pull off in a
matter of a few days when nothing fits. So, you know,
(10:56):
all of this stuff is really interesting because I wish
that a funeral uniform was just a part of our culture,
like that would be much easier, because I don't know
that having to think about these things should be something
we spend our time doing, but it is. And people
show up and they look one way or they look another,
and you look at them and you see and you
make judgments, and so it all is inter related in
(11:19):
a really interesting and kind of complicated way. Brown's uh,
(11:40):
Victoria Beckham, those are pretty high end aspirational designers are
most of the closing your closet designer. No, but I
don't have that many clothes. Um. I am a perjurer. Um.
I like to rewear things. I think it's super cheek
to just have things you like, you know, you look
(12:03):
good in And if you consider some of the people
who we and myre most you know Anna wintour Um.
I've had the privilege to be in a few meetings
with her. She always wears the same necklaces, she always
wears the same shoes. I think about what I buy,
and I think about how we'll wear it, and I
don't like to buy things that make me have to
buy other things. And it's a long winded way of
(12:25):
saying that, yes, I have a lot of designer clothes,
but I also shop at consignment stores and I inherit
things from my mom. And when I do buy things,
I am really most concerned with fit um And if
something fits well, I'll wear it again and again. What
are some of the things that you've inherited from your mom?
(12:46):
Is she addresser? She a shopper, She's a monster shopper,
and maybe that is what has inspired my resistance to
acquiring um. She likes to shop for sport. She finds
it relaxing. I find the idea of having too many
things stressful. UM. So we're different in that way, But yes,
she she has an amazing taste. She is also a
(13:06):
little smaller than I am so it's a constant battle
because she wants to give me things that I think
she knows won't fit me, which it's a different story
for a different podcast. But um, she has amazing clothes
and really amazing designer clothes, you know Selene and Oscar
de Laurenta. And she also introduced me to a lot
(13:28):
of the labels, the contemporary labels that I think are
really great for uniform dressing, like Jenny Caine, and um,
she likes whistles. So she's all over the map. But
she's a quantity gal and I have the privilege of
getting her rejects. Now that we're in the podcast studio
talking about it. I have rules to whether or not
(13:49):
I'll buy something. Do you want to hear them? Of course?
What are they? What are your rules? My rules are
as follows. One. I asked myself this when I go
to buy something. One is it perfect? Obviously that the
subjective question, and I've bought many things that are not perfect.
But if in that moment I look at it and
I say, no, it's not perfect. I don't like the
way it fits that, I know I'm not going to
buy it. So one is it perfect too? I'm forgetting
(14:13):
my own rules. Um too, would I take it on
a trip? Um? And three doesn't make my life easier.
I do not buy anything that does not pass those
three rules. And um, I find that very few things do.
When you say make your life easier, I would love
(14:33):
you to define that in a way that people will understand,
because I think what you're saying is it doesn't always
have to be you know, a black top that you
grab when you have nothing to wear. It can be
the floral shmata you're wearing right now. How does that
make like? How does that dress make your life easier? Um?
This stress, to me, bridges a lot of gaps. It
(14:55):
is well tailored, um, but casual, so it's sort of
reads put together but not too overdone. It Also, I'm short,
as are you, and I have boobs and a butt
um and it accommodates both of those things with grace. Um.
I think it's sort of goes nicely between seasons. It's
(15:17):
a summer dress, it's also a fall dress. I haven't
yet tried it with tights. I'm sort of thinking I'm
not going to do tights anymore. I don't like tights anymore.
This dress doesn't wrinkle. This dress looks nice with my coloring.
All in all, put this dress on. I know I
don't look like uh slop. So that's making my life easier.
So let's say you need a new fall a new
(15:37):
fall sweater, or a new peer jeans, and you do
spend your Saturday shopping. Where are you going? What store?
What story are you walking into? Dude, I don't even know. Um,
let's think where would I go? I mean your department store? Gal?
Are you? You know? So many people in New York
always say, oh, I got it a little boutique, and
I'm always like, wellshit, um, but maybe you do shop
(15:59):
a boutiques. Maybe maybe people really do exist that shop
of boutiques I've never actually used to be. I mean
I would go to Intermix in my twenties. That would
be like my jam right, I would say, Now, I
really like neely Lo tan Um expensive as hell, but
beautifully made. I I shop on out a porte a
(16:19):
lot and shop up. I know which silhouettes look good
on me. I know which designers make clothes that fit me. Um.
I cannot remember the last time I walked around with
like a bunch of shopping bags. In my hand. I
just can't. I mean, growing up, when I was a kid,
I mean I craved shopping. I craved Montgomery Mall, which
(16:41):
was my local mall. I would go back and forth
between Babe and R and B and put things on
hold and Ham and Hall for like a top. I
would go to Pacific sign Uh. I would go to
this place called Merry Go Round and Contempo Casuals. I mean,
I still remember those places like formed me going back,
going back a little, I'm gonna listen. I shopped in
(17:03):
all of those stores. Contempto Casuals was I mean, it
kind of was my life in a very long time identity.
And I remember walking in and I remember the racks,
how they were circular, and I would look at every
single piece hide things. Yeah, come back later. I still
do that. I still do that. I didn't um, I
(17:25):
just did that. During the Zara sale, there was a
satin skirt with a big bejeweled buckle, tacky as hell,
eighties as hell, and I loved it. And there was
one left in the store and I had to get
to a meeting. I hit it under a rack, under
a pile of sweaters, and it was still there. At
the end of the day. I've done that in my
adult life at a sample sale, I've had things, yes,
because those are feeding frenzies and no one's to be dressed.
(18:04):
You talked earlier about when you were going to the
funeral of your best friend and the idea of going home,
And I'm curious how you know you live in New
York now you're from d C. Very very different cities,
especially in terms of style in the way I think
women often present themselves. So I'm curious to know how
(18:25):
when you go home do you consider what you pack?
Do you care? Do you know you're going to be
seeing people? Does your style change in your hometown from
your adopted city? It changes a lot. Um. I also,
my mom has completely gutted my room. There is not
any sort of T shirt to even sleep in. So yes,
she has a lot of clothes, but um, when I'm home,
(18:47):
it's not like I can just go through her drawers.
She's sort of the dose into her own collection. So
also she sleeps in like a nightgown, which is like
to put together for me. So I I focus on
bringing like things that I need that I couldn't easily procure. Um.
So that's the basis, Like, am I going to have
sweatpants that I think are comfortable or whatever? But I
(19:08):
think I do consider what I'm wearing. I don't want
to wear anything too out there. Um. And this isn't
to diminish anyone's style in d C. But UM, I
sometimes feel like in New York were so much in
a bubble and the trends or the way people dress here,
or the things that are happening. I mean, I don't
(19:29):
wear them, but these stupid feel of sneakers or whatever.
So the trends that are happening here, everyone gets it
and it's a language and it's shared. But I think
you go outside the bubble and these things seem odd.
So I try to just think about what will be practical,
what will make sense for the places that I'm going.
But I don't really bring anything trendy. Um. And in
(19:52):
the case of going to this funeral, um, I wanted
to look like myself. I didn't want to look like
you know, you always see these movies like Sweet Home Alabama,
and this might be my own, um narcissism or insecurity,
but I don't want to want to think that, you know,
I moved to New York and uh where you know,
(20:13):
sunglasses all day and I'm a claquer. I just wanted
seem like the person that my friends always knew, and
that person shopped a dis Free and the Limited and Gap.
Not that that's what I wear now, but I do
think about it and it kind of takes me back.
I mean, I regress when I'm at home, UM, and
(20:33):
I get insecure, and I don't want what I wear
to be the thing that stands out about me and
someone say, oh, look at her, Look what she's wearing.
Who does she think she is? Again? This is probably
derived from narcissism. I don't think anyone was thinking about
what I was wearing at a funeral. But you asked
(20:54):
you're short. I'm sure I'm five one. I'm five two,
and I have I think that I used to say
I was five too. I don't really think I am.
I think I'm probably a solid five one. But it's
something that I've always been insecure about. UM stuffed my sneakers.
I did the same. I stuffed my boots boots socks
(21:15):
or paper towels, or I stuffed my boots with socks
when I was a teenager and My mother found them
one day, and I remember her freaking out and saying, yeah,
then I ruin your feet and I was like, no,
I'm not. And we had this huge fight and she
just didn't understand. My mom's not super tall, but she's
definitely taller than me, and she did not She just
(21:35):
didn't understand. And I would buy. And I was young.
I was probably fourteen when I started doing that, and
I knew the style. Then I grew up in New York.
The style was not prissy. High heels were not something
plus your fourteen, so high heels were not something. I
was into Timberland's. I was into sneakers, very into Nike Harrachis.
I wanted to wear shoes that didn't look girly. But
(21:56):
I was really even at that age, I was really
upset about being short. And I still am in my thirties.
It's not something that I've come to terms with yet.
I have stopped wearing crazy high heels during the day.
I think that not only looks like I'm trying too hard,
but it's not comfortable. And I'm wondering how you know,
as a petite woman, you are you insecure about it?
(22:20):
And do you think about your height on the daily
as you're getting dressed. I'm insecure about it in different ways.
My husband's super tall, he's six ft four um and
he's lean, and you know, when I was pregnant, I
just felt like a blimped next to him. I mean,
the scale was just all off. I'm not so insecure
(22:40):
about it now in my day to day Like I mean,
ten years ago, I wouldn't go to work without heels on,
or I would bring my heels and put them on
the second I got here. I don't do that anymore.
I mean, I'll wear flats here. I don't care. I
feel insecure, and I don't know if you feel this way.
Um in front of a very tall woman, all of
a sudden, I feel infantilised, and I think it's not
(23:02):
fair to her because she probably feels too tall. I
don't think about that. I think of the height as power.
I perceive it as someone being more of an adult
than I am, or just having like it's like I'm
a chihuahua and there, you know, something bigger and better,
like I'm immediately thrown off my guard. But I recently
(23:23):
had an experience where I was talking to a woman
who is much shorter than I am, and I felt
I put myself in her shoes and I felt uncomfortable
for her, and she looked fine. So again I think
this is all my stuff. But do you feel weird
when there's like a six foot woman talking to you? Yes,
I feel I feel extremely self conscious. I feel extremely
(23:46):
envious because I believe and I will die on this hill.
I will. I really believe that women who not even
who are tall, who are taller, are taken more seriously
in every aspect of life. But I think that they
really get ahead farther. I think they're taken more seriously
at work. I think they're taken more seriously than too
when they're trying to order a drink at the bar,
(24:07):
just everything. And I feel in my career I've been
I don't know that I would say as successful as
I would like to be, but I certainly have had
a nice amount of success, and I've always sort of
landed the job I wanted. I feel like I would
be much much, much farther, both where I am now
and in future jobs if I was if I was tall.
(24:31):
And I think it's a double edged sword because in
order to make myself tall, I have to teeter around
in heels and that in itself and then have that privilege.
I honestly think it's worse for me. My brother is
very short. Um, he's like five six, and he doesn't
he can't wear heels. I mean maybe he stuffs his shoes,
but I don't think he does. I think it's a
(24:51):
I think it's much luckier to be a short girl
that has to be a short boy that I am
a woman. I agree, Like, I think we're cute, and
you know, look at Reese Witherspoon, Like, I think that
there are more examples of plucky, um ambitious, driven short
women and then a man if he's short and wants
those things, he has a Napoleon complex. So I actually
(25:14):
would prefer it for me um, and I've I've learned
to like elements of it, Like I have friends who
are taller, and I think that they really struggle with
that as well. I'm gonna ask you a couple of
questions that we ask everyone kind of a speed round.
So just to answer the first thing that comes into
(25:36):
your head, Okay, what's the last thing you bought? I
know I'm not supposed to say salad, but it was
a salad. But before that, I bought Um, trying to
think of something sexy that I bought. What did I buy?
Spin drift in cans? Yellow spin drift that lemon. Um.
(25:57):
I decided that I wanted to be an adult who
has hold to go beverages. And I realized that's not
the best environmental decision. But I think that that's a
step up for me. I'm I'm a tapwater gal, but
now I have a spin drift to go ice cold,
really refreshing three calories. Maybe Spindrift will come on and
(26:19):
advertise for the show. Now. How do you fall asleep
at night? Is there something specific that you do, a
ritual that you have, a show you watch. I'm a
really good sleeper. Um. I think that pillow placement is important.
I'm a big pillow placement person. I put it between
my knees, one behind my head, and I listened to
rain sounds on my phone sometimes if I'm having difficulty.
(26:42):
What was your first concert, Shania Twain? What would be
your last meal on Earth? Raw salmon by the fistful.
We didn't prep these, I would raw salmon. Yeah, dude, X,
where are you going after this home. You're going home.
(27:05):
It's the middle of the day, and after this, I'm
going upstairs to make a phone call. Okay, we're done here. Okay.
What I Wore When is a production of Glamour and
I Heart Radio, with new episodes dropping every Monday. For
(27:26):
more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows. I'm your host, Glamour Digital director Perry Samaton.
Follow me on Instagram at Perry Samaton, p E R
R I E s A m O T I. N
Our Executive producer is Ali Perry, and our producers are
(27:48):
Glamour's Kim Fessorrow and I Heart j J. Paseway. What
I Wore When is engineered by Emily Maronoff and Derrek Clemens.
Special thanks to Julie Sen and Diana Buckman at Conde Nast.
For more information on today's episode, go to Glamour dot
com slash What I War When.
Hey, Broken Hearts listeners. My name is Perry Samaton, and
I've worked with your host, Justine Harmon at Glamor Magazine
for years. I'm really excited to share a different kind
of podcast featuring Justine. It's a new show from Glamor
and I Heart Radio, and it's called What I Wore When.
Our powerful episode with Justine is something I really believe
should be required listening for all Broken Heart subscribers. I
(00:21):
hope you like it, and I hope you subscribe to
What I Wore When. Welcome to What I Wore When,
a production of Glamour and I Heart Radio. I'm your host,
Perry Samatons. Each week, I'm sitting down with a woman
I find fascinating to talk about what she wore during
a pivotal moment in her life. We're using the power
(00:43):
of style to tell the stories you haven't heard. If
you're a podcast fan, and I'm going to assume you are,
then you probably devoured Broken Hearts last fall, a serialized
true crime story about the Heart family that's been downloaded
more than nine million times. The podcast stem from an
(01:05):
investigative story my colleague Justine Harmon was working on for Glamour,
where she was the features director. Now a freelance writer
and podcaster, be on the lookout for a very exciting
new audio series from her this winter. Justine has also
been an editor at l and People magazine. I've always
found Justine to be a compelling person to talk to.
(01:25):
She's someone I describe as no bullshit, which is the
type of woman I tend to gravitate toward. She's always
willing to share a lot of herself publicly, which is
what she did when we sat down to record this
episode in January, three weeks after she delivered her daughter,
Justine's childhood best friend tragically passed away. Suddenly. She was
(01:47):
faced with the dilemma what to her to a funeral
when you're not only grieving, but also breastfeeding and recovering
from a C section. This week, Justine explains what she
wore tore her best friend's general and why it wasn't
as easy as just throwing on a black dress. Here's
our conversation. I want to start by asking you what
(02:15):
I ask everyone, what are you wearing today? That's a
great question. Um, I'm wearing an Ula Johnson Schmata. It's red,
it has blue and white flowers and some like burgundy
stitching down the steams, which I think is pretty cute.
And then I'm wearing a pair of Chloe black heels.
Um They're my favorite. They're super comfortable. They're from a
(02:37):
few years ago, and I've had to get them refurbished
like three or four times at Leather Spa. And for
those who don't know leather Spa, it is a spa
for leather goods in New York that can take the
most beat up heels and turn them back into what
they looked like when you bought them. And I've had
to revert them to their original state three or four times.
I love them that much. And for those who don't
(02:59):
know what a shmata is, please define. I think you
could probably define it better, Perry. Shmata is probably a
Yiddish word address, although I feel like that word also
is kind of negative. Shmata is like a sack, Well,
it has sack elements, but it's super short, so it's
(03:19):
like a hot shmata. Okay, you're wearing a really pretty
floral dress. Is really what you're wearing? Well, okay, Sata Santa,
you were going to share a very personal story about
what you wore when you lost your best friend and
how long ago is this? This was in January, my
best friend from growing up, not so much someone I
(03:40):
was day to day in contact with, but someone who
just had so much to do with who I was
as a person, who I am as a person. Um.
She died at the age of thirty four. I don't wanna,
I don't want to like explain the nature of the death,
but let's just say it was in her sleep, and
it um it wasn't really natural causes. Um, and she
(04:02):
struggled a lot with a variety of substance issues. Explained
to me what you wore in the way that you
paid your respect to her. So she died in January.
I believe it was on the fifth. And on December eleven,
I welcomed my second child and I had to have
(04:22):
a C section. I had a C section with my
first baby, and then it's sort of the whole story.
But um, so I guess it's less than a month
after I had the baby, I found out my friend
had died rather suddenly, and I had to a matter
of days get down to d c where I'm from,
and pay my respects to her at the synagogue where
(04:42):
we went to Hebrew school for five or six years together.
We were always together. Um our parents lived kind of
blocks away, we went to the same school. We looked alike,
we talked alike, we did everything together. But Um, I
had to figure out what to wear to this funeral.
And I was larger than my clothing, and I didn't
(05:06):
want to wear my you know, maternity clothes. It was
the middle of winner. Um I had to figure out
what to wear that would make sense, not only for
the funeral component, but then there was Shiva and borrow
thing in between. And on top of it all, I
was seeing people from home, people I grew up with,
an ex boyfriend, old friends, old crushes, old teachers, parents
(05:30):
of old friends. I wanted to look a certain way.
I wanted to look professional and respectful, and I wanted
to look pretty, which I hadn't felt in quite some time.
So picking out what to wear was challenging. And I
also didn't want to go buy anything because it wouldn't
fit in you know, optimistically, it wouldn't fit in a
matter of weeks or months. So I just tried to
(05:52):
figure out what to wear from what I had, and
I also had to be mindful of the scar in
my abdomen um, which was super tender still being that
I think I was still taking painkillers. To be honest, Um,
I also was pumping, so I had to wear something
that was pump accessible. So it was a quite an
equation to figure out what to wear to this. I
(06:12):
mean so many different elements and so many things. So
I wore um a pair of Pruenza Schooler trousers that
I had gotten on netaport eight years ago and that
have been for me a pair of pants that always
look good. Somehow they fit, I mean, it wasn't like
a great fit, but I was able to zip them
(06:33):
and they're like a nice woolves so they weren't super
itchy over the scar. And I wore a cropped Victoria
Beckham sweater that I've had to again get redone because
I wear it so off and it's navy and it
has a little bit of a peplum shape. It's cropped,
and it has ivory around the bottom and ivory around
the sleeves. I felt good in it. Um, I thought
(06:54):
it's sort of faked a silhouette I didn't really have
at the time. And then I wore, um, a pair
of Aldo booties um that are patent that are super
super comfortable. Um. And they're actually my second pair of
those Aldo booties because I've wore them all winter long.
And you and I discussed earlier that after you have
a baby, or at least I experienced that my feet changed. Um,
(07:16):
they hurt, can really wear heels, So these Aldo shoes
are comfortable. Um. So all in all, I figured it out.
I felt like I looked nice and respectful but also
kind of cute. It was. Yeah, it was a hard
thing to figure out. Have you ever worn that outfit again?
And if so, has the meaning of the alfa change
for you? In any way? I haven't worn the sweater again, um,
(07:39):
and I probably never will if I'm being honest. I
just am now turned off by it. And that happens
to me. Sometimes there's a lot of emotional significance, I
think in the clothes that we wear and when we
wear them, you know, love loss and what I wore.
I'll probably give this sweater away. The pants, however, I
wore a week later on national television when I went
(08:02):
on the Doctor Oz Show. Um, I wore the same pants. Um,
these pants have been with me for five years. They
don't mean anything to me other than there a nice
pair of pants, um, so I'll wear those again. But
the sweater, yeah, I think I'm done with it. The
day itself was really hard. So the idea of feeling
like you look nice to me isn't necessarily a vanity
(08:24):
driven thing. It's more it's a protective layer. Um. I
didn't want to think about what I was wearing. I
didn't want to be insecure. I wanted to feel the
feelings I was feeling, which were really confusing. I wanted
the last thing that I thought about to be what
I was wearing. And I think, you know, we all
want to feel like that. We want to feel comfortable
(08:46):
and like we're present, and the things we have on
our body can be a hindrance UM to that experience.
So once I got the outfit figured out, I didn't
give it actually that much thought anymore. I was comfortable enough,
was warm enough, um, and I was appropriately dressed, which
is obviously the thing of utmost importance. But the day itself,
(09:07):
I mean, it sucked and it continues to suck. My friend,
who I loved, who is the reason I even knew
what style was. She was the ultimate cool girl growing up.
She taught me everything I know about Delia's and Steve
Madden and um, I guess part of me wanted her.
(09:30):
I don't know. I can't even I don't really even
know how to talk about it, to be honest, but
she was there. I could feel her. I hope she
thought I looked cute. Um she always did, so Yeah,
I understand the sentiment of wanting to look and feel
your best even during a trying time, and it not
(09:53):
being related to vanity, because I kind of feel like,
even in the most miserable circumstance, I think a lot
of us can be preoccupied with knowing that we don't
look great or feel great, and instead of giving the
event or the instance or wherever you are the respect
it deserves, you're stuck thinking about yourself and you're like,
(10:14):
I don't feel good in the sweater, it's too tight,
I feel like my but looks too big, or I'm
not And I really think that respecting the way you
look yourself in turn, can make you respect a situation
a lot more. I also think as you get older,
you recognize that dress codes aren't just a buzz kill. Um,
it's about etiquette and what's appropriate. And I think I've
(10:35):
definitely shown up at black tie affairs wearing something that's
not appropriate. And I've gone to funerals and maybe not
thought about what I was wearing enough, and I really
wanted to be respectful and what I was wearing, and
it was a hard thing to pull off in a
matter of a few days when nothing fits. So, you know,
(10:56):
all of this stuff is really interesting because I wish
that a funeral uniform was just a part of our culture,
like that would be much easier, because I don't know
that having to think about these things should be something
we spend our time doing, but it is. And people
show up and they look one way or they look another,
and you look at them and you see and you
make judgments, and so it all is inter related in
(11:19):
a really interesting and kind of complicated way. Brown's uh,
(11:40):
Victoria Beckham, those are pretty high end aspirational designers are
most of the closing your closet designer. No, but I
don't have that many clothes. Um. I am a perjurer. Um.
I like to rewear things. I think it's super cheek
to just have things you like, you know, you look
(12:03):
good in And if you consider some of the people
who we and myre most you know Anna wintour Um.
I've had the privilege to be in a few meetings
with her. She always wears the same necklaces, she always
wears the same shoes. I think about what I buy,
and I think about how we'll wear it, and I
don't like to buy things that make me have to
buy other things. And it's a long winded way of
(12:25):
saying that, yes, I have a lot of designer clothes,
but I also shop at consignment stores and I inherit
things from my mom. And when I do buy things,
I am really most concerned with fit um And if
something fits well, I'll wear it again and again. What
are some of the things that you've inherited from your mom?
(12:46):
Is she addresser? She a shopper, She's a monster shopper,
and maybe that is what has inspired my resistance to
acquiring um. She likes to shop for sport. She finds
it relaxing. I find the idea of having too many
things stressful. UM. So we're different in that way, But yes,
she she has an amazing taste. She is also a
(13:06):
little smaller than I am so it's a constant battle
because she wants to give me things that I think
she knows won't fit me, which it's a different story
for a different podcast. But um, she has amazing clothes
and really amazing designer clothes, you know Selene and Oscar
de Laurenta. And she also introduced me to a lot
(13:28):
of the labels, the contemporary labels that I think are
really great for uniform dressing, like Jenny Caine, and um,
she likes whistles. So she's all over the map. But
she's a quantity gal and I have the privilege of
getting her rejects. Now that we're in the podcast studio
talking about it. I have rules to whether or not
(13:49):
I'll buy something. Do you want to hear them? Of course?
What are they? What are your rules? My rules are
as follows. One. I asked myself this when I go
to buy something. One is it perfect? Obviously that the
subjective question, and I've bought many things that are not perfect.
But if in that moment I look at it and
I say, no, it's not perfect. I don't like the
way it fits that, I know I'm not going to
buy it. So one is it perfect too? I'm forgetting
(14:13):
my own rules. Um too, would I take it on
a trip? Um? And three doesn't make my life easier.
I do not buy anything that does not pass those
three rules. And um, I find that very few things do.
When you say make your life easier, I would love
(14:33):
you to define that in a way that people will understand,
because I think what you're saying is it doesn't always
have to be you know, a black top that you
grab when you have nothing to wear. It can be
the floral shmata you're wearing right now. How does that
make like? How does that dress make your life easier? Um?
This stress, to me, bridges a lot of gaps. It
(14:55):
is well tailored, um, but casual, so it's sort of
reads put together but not too overdone. It Also, I'm short,
as are you, and I have boobs and a butt
um and it accommodates both of those things with grace. Um.
I think it's sort of goes nicely between seasons. It's
(15:17):
a summer dress, it's also a fall dress. I haven't
yet tried it with tights. I'm sort of thinking I'm
not going to do tights anymore. I don't like tights anymore.
This dress doesn't wrinkle. This dress looks nice with my coloring.
All in all, put this dress on. I know I
don't look like uh slop. So that's making my life easier.
So let's say you need a new fall a new
(15:37):
fall sweater, or a new peer jeans, and you do
spend your Saturday shopping. Where are you going? What store?
What story are you walking into? Dude, I don't even know. Um,
let's think where would I go? I mean your department store? Gal?
Are you? You know? So many people in New York
always say, oh, I got it a little boutique, and
I'm always like, wellshit, um, but maybe you do shop
(15:59):
a boutiques. Maybe maybe people really do exist that shop
of boutiques I've never actually used to be. I mean
I would go to Intermix in my twenties. That would
be like my jam right, I would say, Now, I
really like neely Lo tan Um expensive as hell, but
beautifully made. I I shop on out a porte a
(16:19):
lot and shop up. I know which silhouettes look good
on me. I know which designers make clothes that fit me. Um.
I cannot remember the last time I walked around with
like a bunch of shopping bags. In my hand. I
just can't. I mean, growing up, when I was a kid,
I mean I craved shopping. I craved Montgomery Mall, which
(16:41):
was my local mall. I would go back and forth
between Babe and R and B and put things on
hold and Ham and Hall for like a top. I
would go to Pacific sign Uh. I would go to
this place called Merry Go Round and Contempo Casuals. I mean,
I still remember those places like formed me going back,
going back a little, I'm gonna listen. I shopped in
(17:03):
all of those stores. Contempto Casuals was I mean, it
kind of was my life in a very long time identity.
And I remember walking in and I remember the racks,
how they were circular, and I would look at every
single piece hide things. Yeah, come back later. I still
do that. I still do that. I didn't um, I
(17:25):
just did that. During the Zara sale, there was a
satin skirt with a big bejeweled buckle, tacky as hell,
eighties as hell, and I loved it. And there was
one left in the store and I had to get
to a meeting. I hit it under a rack, under
a pile of sweaters, and it was still there. At
the end of the day. I've done that in my
adult life at a sample sale, I've had things, yes,
because those are feeding frenzies and no one's to be dressed.
(18:04):
You talked earlier about when you were going to the
funeral of your best friend and the idea of going home,
And I'm curious how you know you live in New
York now you're from d C. Very very different cities,
especially in terms of style in the way I think
women often present themselves. So I'm curious to know how
(18:25):
when you go home do you consider what you pack?
Do you care? Do you know you're going to be
seeing people? Does your style change in your hometown from
your adopted city? It changes a lot. Um. I also,
my mom has completely gutted my room. There is not
any sort of T shirt to even sleep in. So yes,
she has a lot of clothes, but um, when I'm home,
(18:47):
it's not like I can just go through her drawers.
She's sort of the dose into her own collection. So
also she sleeps in like a nightgown, which is like
to put together for me. So I I focus on
bringing like things that I need that I couldn't easily procure. Um.
So that's the basis, Like, am I going to have
sweatpants that I think are comfortable or whatever? But I
(19:08):
think I do consider what I'm wearing. I don't want
to wear anything too out there. Um. And this isn't
to diminish anyone's style in d C. But UM, I
sometimes feel like in New York were so much in
a bubble and the trends or the way people dress here,
or the things that are happening. I mean, I don't
(19:29):
wear them, but these stupid feel of sneakers or whatever.
So the trends that are happening here, everyone gets it
and it's a language and it's shared. But I think
you go outside the bubble and these things seem odd.
So I try to just think about what will be practical,
what will make sense for the places that I'm going.
But I don't really bring anything trendy. Um. And in
(19:52):
the case of going to this funeral, um, I wanted
to look like myself. I didn't want to look like
you know, you always see these movies like Sweet Home Alabama,
and this might be my own, um narcissism or insecurity,
but I don't want to want to think that, you know,
I moved to New York and uh where you know,
(20:13):
sunglasses all day and I'm a claquer. I just wanted
seem like the person that my friends always knew, and
that person shopped a dis Free and the Limited and Gap.
Not that that's what I wear now, but I do
think about it and it kind of takes me back.
I mean, I regress when I'm at home, UM, and
(20:33):
I get insecure, and I don't want what I wear
to be the thing that stands out about me and
someone say, oh, look at her, Look what she's wearing.
Who does she think she is? Again? This is probably
derived from narcissism. I don't think anyone was thinking about
what I was wearing at a funeral. But you asked
(20:54):
you're short. I'm sure I'm five one. I'm five two,
and I have I think that I used to say
I was five too. I don't really think I am.
I think I'm probably a solid five one. But it's
something that I've always been insecure about. UM stuffed my sneakers.
I did the same. I stuffed my boots boots socks
(21:15):
or paper towels, or I stuffed my boots with socks
when I was a teenager and My mother found them
one day, and I remember her freaking out and saying, yeah,
then I ruin your feet and I was like, no,
I'm not. And we had this huge fight and she
just didn't understand. My mom's not super tall, but she's
definitely taller than me, and she did not She just
(21:35):
didn't understand. And I would buy. And I was young.
I was probably fourteen when I started doing that, and
I knew the style. Then I grew up in New York.
The style was not prissy. High heels were not something
plus your fourteen, so high heels were not something. I
was into Timberland's. I was into sneakers, very into Nike Harrachis.
I wanted to wear shoes that didn't look girly. But
(21:56):
I was really even at that age, I was really
upset about being short. And I still am in my thirties.
It's not something that I've come to terms with yet.
I have stopped wearing crazy high heels during the day.
I think that not only looks like I'm trying too hard,
but it's not comfortable. And I'm wondering how you know,
as a petite woman, you are you insecure about it?
(22:20):
And do you think about your height on the daily
as you're getting dressed. I'm insecure about it in different ways.
My husband's super tall, he's six ft four um and
he's lean, and you know, when I was pregnant, I
just felt like a blimped next to him. I mean,
the scale was just all off. I'm not so insecure
(22:40):
about it now in my day to day Like I mean,
ten years ago, I wouldn't go to work without heels on,
or I would bring my heels and put them on
the second I got here. I don't do that anymore.
I mean, I'll wear flats here. I don't care. I
feel insecure, and I don't know if you feel this way.
Um in front of a very tall woman, all of
a sudden, I feel infantilised, and I think it's not
(23:02):
fair to her because she probably feels too tall. I
don't think about that. I think of the height as power.
I perceive it as someone being more of an adult
than I am, or just having like it's like I'm
a chihuahua and there, you know, something bigger and better,
like I'm immediately thrown off my guard. But I recently
(23:23):
had an experience where I was talking to a woman
who is much shorter than I am, and I felt
I put myself in her shoes and I felt uncomfortable
for her, and she looked fine. So again I think
this is all my stuff. But do you feel weird
when there's like a six foot woman talking to you? Yes,
I feel I feel extremely self conscious. I feel extremely
(23:46):
envious because I believe and I will die on this hill.
I will. I really believe that women who not even
who are tall, who are taller, are taken more seriously
in every aspect of life. But I think that they
really get ahead farther. I think they're taken more seriously
at work. I think they're taken more seriously than too
when they're trying to order a drink at the bar,
(24:07):
just everything. And I feel in my career I've been
I don't know that I would say as successful as
I would like to be, but I certainly have had
a nice amount of success, and I've always sort of
landed the job I wanted. I feel like I would
be much much, much farther, both where I am now
and in future jobs if I was if I was tall.
(24:31):
And I think it's a double edged sword because in
order to make myself tall, I have to teeter around
in heels and that in itself and then have that privilege.
I honestly think it's worse for me. My brother is
very short. Um, he's like five six, and he doesn't
he can't wear heels. I mean maybe he stuffs his shoes,
but I don't think he does. I think it's a
(24:51):
I think it's much luckier to be a short girl
that has to be a short boy that I am
a woman. I agree, Like, I think we're cute, and
you know, look at Reese Witherspoon, Like, I think that
there are more examples of plucky, um ambitious, driven short
women and then a man if he's short and wants
those things, he has a Napoleon complex. So I actually
(25:14):
would prefer it for me um, and I've I've learned
to like elements of it, Like I have friends who
are taller, and I think that they really struggle with
that as well. I'm gonna ask you a couple of
questions that we ask everyone kind of a speed round.
So just to answer the first thing that comes into
(25:36):
your head, Okay, what's the last thing you bought? I
know I'm not supposed to say salad, but it was
a salad. But before that, I bought Um, trying to
think of something sexy that I bought. What did I buy?
Spin drift in cans? Yellow spin drift that lemon. Um.
(25:57):
I decided that I wanted to be an adult who
has hold to go beverages. And I realized that's not
the best environmental decision. But I think that that's a
step up for me. I'm I'm a tapwater gal, but
now I have a spin drift to go ice cold,
really refreshing three calories. Maybe Spindrift will come on and
(26:19):
advertise for the show. Now. How do you fall asleep
at night? Is there something specific that you do, a
ritual that you have, a show you watch. I'm a
really good sleeper. Um. I think that pillow placement is important.
I'm a big pillow placement person. I put it between
my knees, one behind my head, and I listened to
rain sounds on my phone sometimes if I'm having difficulty.
(26:42):
What was your first concert, Shania Twain? What would be
your last meal on Earth? Raw salmon by the fistful.
We didn't prep these, I would raw salmon. Yeah, dude, X,
where are you going after this home. You're going home.
(27:05):
It's the middle of the day, and after this, I'm
going upstairs to make a phone call. Okay, we're done here. Okay.
What I Wore When is a production of Glamour and
I Heart Radio, with new episodes dropping every Monday. For
(27:26):
more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows. I'm your host, Glamour Digital director Perry Samaton.
Follow me on Instagram at Perry Samaton, p E R
R I E s A m O T I. N
Our Executive producer is Ali Perry, and our producers are
(27:48):
Glamour's Kim Fessorrow and I Heart j J. Paseway. What
I Wore When is engineered by Emily Maronoff and Derrek Clemens.
Special thanks to Julie Sen and Diana Buckman at Conde Nast.
For more information on today's episode, go to Glamour dot
com slash What I War When.
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