December 7, 2021 • 45 mins
For the twentieth episode of Charges, Rex brings filmmaker Evan Jackson Leong on the show to talk about Season 1 of Charges. Rex & Evan discuss: Why Evan is a superfan of the show, the vulnerability of the podcast, the inception of the show, what made him want to create Charges, what he was looking for as a host, the Bonzi Wells episode, the Jayson Williams episode, his children, what comes next as an athlete after playing days are over, the Metta Sandiford-Artest episode, the Kat O'Brien episode, what he learned from these guests, how the perspective of an athlete is changing in the media, what he learned from the journeys of his guests, recovery & redemption, everyone's problems & perspective, feedback of the show, if he could go back in time to the day of his arrest, what he hopes for next for Charges & more. This episode is not to be missed!
Charges is Created by CTRL Media & Portal A. It's produced by DBPodcasts in association with iHeartMedia.
Executive Producers: Steve Nash, Brandon Kraines, Ezra Holland, Nate Houghteling, and Todd Barrish.
Charges with Rex Chapman Theme Music
Artist: Illegal Kartel (@illegal_kartel_mikal_shakur)
Produced by: Gene Crenshaw (@yuyuthemaker)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Charges. I'm your host, Rex Chapman. Wow. When
an incredible journey this first season of Charges has been.
You know, when I started this process and this podcast,
I wasn't totally sure what to expect of me as
a host, of our guests and their desire to be
open with me, and of the reception of the show.
(00:23):
I must tell you it's been incredible. The guests we've had,
the stories they've told, the moments and relationships, and most importantly,
the feedback and responses we've received from our listeners. It
has made me so proud. For now, I wanted to
put the finishing touch on season one, and as my
guest today knows, no matter how nice the drive or
(00:43):
the attempt, what really matters is the finish and finishing strong.
So my thought for this topic was to bring on filmmaker, producer, director,
and basketball fan Evan leon helped me sort through all
we've been through this season and have a discussion about
the process of telling stories. You may know the name
Evan Leong from his work as director of documentary Len
(01:07):
Sanity about the incredible rise of Jeremy Lynn on the
New York Knicks. But if you've seen the film. You
know that the story we all kind of knew about Jeremy,
there was so much more and that documentary is a
must see for any sports fan. This is Charges Charges Evan.
(01:31):
Welcome to Charges, buddy. It's really really great to be here.
I mean volume twenty, I mean, I'm I'm become a
super fan of the show, and you know, it's truly
truly honored to be here. Why do you like the show?
Why do I like the show? I mean this is
you create this level of empathy and vulnerability that it's
just so hard to to see, you know, to experience
(01:53):
these days. Right, I think you know the way this
industry works, and especially the sports industry. You know, we're
trained to think of athletes as a brand, as an
idea of as as as simple as icon. But you know,
they're humans. They're just like me. They're just like you know,
every all the fans out there. You know what's weird
about that is, I'm we talked about the vulnerability. I know,
(02:15):
when I started speaking to groups about drug issues and whatnot,
the main thing that people want want to see and
here is your vulnerability. They want to know that you're
you're human, just like they are, And then I thought,
our guests all season long this year. You know, obviously
they're coming on a show called charges Um with my
(02:36):
mug shot on the things, so they know they're not
going to talk about the best times of their life.
But what I think that, you know, our our whole
crew has done a terrific job of just you know,
really researching the guys and ladies and gentlemen that we've
had on the show. And you know, obviously we try
(02:56):
to build everybody up as much as we can, UM,
but then they know they're coming on to talk about
arguably the worst time in their life. And I just
can't say enough about these people who have come on
and shared these amazing stories with us. Yeah, I mean,
it's exciting to see you know, I mean, I grew
up in the same area as you, the eighties and
the nineties, masculinity, man protection. We don't share our emotions
(03:20):
and and it's crazy to see how honest we can
be in right, And it's exciting to have someone like
you be, you know, one of these these culture makers
of this era. And so Um, I'm really excited to
talk to you about all these things because you know,
episode one to episode twenty. This is I've got to
see you grow as well. Yeah, yeah, you know. Uh
(03:45):
when Steve Nash and and uh Ezra and Brandon are producers,
the guys who kind of came up with this idea.
When they contacted me about it, I couldn't really visualize that.
I'm not that bright anyway, but they I couldn't really
even tell what they were talking about until we started
getting into it. And then once I got the concept,
(04:06):
I was like, oh man, you know, if we do
that the right way, it might be pretty compelling and
just to see, you know, and to be completely honest,
I'd never interviewed anybody ever ever. You know, Um, I've
been interviewed since I was fifteen, and you know, can
do this stuff much better than being the host. So
I was very nervous and still get nervous doing this stuff.
(04:29):
The other part about it that I found and I
hearing back from some of the people that have been
on the show. If you've been in therapy or if
you've been in treatment, you've probably been in therapy and
it feels cathartic in many ways. When I get I
worry about doing the show because I want to do
(04:51):
right by the guests. Inevitably, though, when I get off,
I just feel better. I feel like, Okay, well, you know,
we've talked through some pretty tough and motions today and
you feel like, you know, well, I've put in a
good day's work. So that's been really rewarding. What made
you want to do a show like this? What were
you hoping for? You know, Steve and I have known
each other for twenty some years now, and um, he's
(05:14):
just he's the best. And when he called and said, hey,
you know, would you be interested in doing this again?
I I've just kind of been building my life back
for the last few years and I was looking for
more to do, and um, you know, it took us
a little while, and then obviously the pandemic set in.
I think we were going to try to do you know,
(05:35):
a lot of this stuff live or with people in person,
but that kind of the pandemic kind of pushed everything
to zoom. So you know, we've we've tried to adjust
and I think it's gone really well. I'm so thankful
for the guests, but uh, yeah, there were a lot
of nerves going into it, for sure. Yeah, besides becoming
(05:56):
you know, a talent you know, becoming more in this
media world. What were you hoping for? Is there anything
personally you're looking for? No, you know, I before I
say no, I think that you know, I'm constantly looking
for redemption and trying to you know, redeem myself. And yeah,
(06:20):
as much for me, but for my my kids. You know,
I've got kids that are twenty nine and twenty six
and twenty two and twenty one, and when I was
going through my ship, they were young people, and um,
you know I I'm just constantly trying to make up,
make up for you know, things that I've done and
(06:40):
and try to hopefully redeem myself continue to redeem myself
in their eyes. So yeah, I wanted to try to
do something positive. And yes, we're talking about you know,
drugs and alcohol and um, you know, people going to
jail in prison and stuff like that. And I don't
know if it can be called uplifting. I think the
(07:00):
way that we've gone about doing it where we you know,
we talked about this person's whole career, all the good stuff,
and then give them the opportunity to talk about you know,
the episode we did with Bonds E Wells I thought
was really powerful um, you know, because I remember that
jail blazers team, jail blazers. Do you remember the first
(07:25):
time you heard the term jail blazers? How did it
make you feel? Man? When I first heard it, man,
I thought it was cool at first, because you know
what I'm saying, I didn't understand. I wasn't thinking about
the cultural part of it. In a weird way, it
kind of reminded me of like the Raiders, you know,
or the bad Boys, Like that was bad boys. That
(07:46):
was our identity. Like okay, that's who we are with
some bad boys. You know what I'm saying. I like
I internalized that in my mind. Is like it's in
term of endearment at first, you know what I mean,
Like okay, but until they just started, you know, putting
thugs said, you know, you're we read the articles and stuff.
So then when you can start seeing the thugs and
quotes and all this stuff, you be like, hold up, bro,
hold up, hold up, and I can call us jail
(08:07):
blazers and we are here on some tough guys stuff,
but don't put that on us, like we're really going
to jail and we're doing this stuff, because that's real,
Like they don't understand, like how that stuff follows you
throughout your whole life and your whole career and and
one thing as a black man, we don't want our
names associated with being in jail the rest of the league.
(08:30):
At the time, you know, this was kind of pre internet.
Really um, we were like, man, the media is treating
those guys really bad, really bad. And talking to Bondsi,
I just it. It just kept coming back to me
as I'm watching him, I'm like, man, I wish you
and Rashid could have had a podcast when you were playing.
(08:52):
While you guys were going through this, so that the
public could know from your standpoint what was going on
and not constantly being fed the the Trailblazer's PR team
or some or a writer's opinion. We were able to
get it. I think all of these have just been
amazing because we're able to get, you know, the story
(09:13):
right from the source. I don't normally listen to the
things that I do or watch the things that I do,
because I normally don't like any of the stuff that
I do. But I did listen to about the first
fifteen or twenty minutes of Jason's pod and just started crying,
just started crying. And I know the story. I've known
(09:34):
him for thirty years, so real quick. I grew up
on the Louist side of Manhattan. I came home. I
was about thirteen and a half years old. Uh. I
was staying with my sister at the time. We would
only live building. The building depend on how if I
missed curfew. That means when the lights went on outside,
(09:55):
I can always run over to her house and she
would tell a lie to my dad that I was
over there. But this time it was an awakening. I
got out the elevator, I saw your business amount of blood.
I looked down the hallway and the blood got thicker
and thicker, and it led until my sister's apartment when
I went into them. My sister six ft one, she's
(10:18):
about a hundred and thirty pounds. She was a model,
a supermodel. And Uh, A guy named Sergio, who I
did not know at the time. I found out his
name later, has stabbed us seventeen times. That beat over
the face with a hammer in the bathtub in front
(10:38):
of a two year old son, e J And uh,
that was just the start of it. I've heard the
story and he's just an amazing guy, and you talk
about it. It's one thing, you know, to go to
jail for shoplifting or whatever. Chasing acts only killed a guy,
(11:01):
and he fights that every single day and he's dedicated
his life to try to give back. He's helping so
many people down in Florida to try to get their
lives together. But he's in constant redemption mode. And there's
something you have to love about that. I think he
spoke a little bit about your family, right and uh,
(11:23):
you know you have your kids and this redemption idea. Um,
I mean, have you had this conversations about you know,
what you went through and what you're going through now?
Not so much now, but yeah, definitely. You know the
stuff that um, you know landed me in in jail
and in rehab three different times. They know that all
(11:45):
too well. Um, you know, they were there when I
was going to these rehab places. And you know that
was something that I never I never kept from family
and friends. Everybody that knew me. You know, Steve Nash
and Evan are are guys on here. Everybody knew that
I had an addiction to painkillers and that I had
(12:06):
been fighting it. I'd been in and how to rehab
in and ow to rehab and just it was nothing
I tried to keep from anybody. Um, but at some
point I just started isolating myself and hiding and I
didn't you know, Uh, I just wasn't very healthy and
mentally and um, you know, I'm grateful. I'm grateful every
(12:30):
day for the friends and family that I think growing
up and being known from such a young age, I
lost track of people that I I didn't know if
they loved me for me or if they love me
because I was a basketball player. And I think I
got kind of just got lost with that. And I've
been so heartened over the last few years to know that,
(12:53):
you know, there are people that really, you know, that
were there for me when they didn't have to be.
And uh almost makes me want to cry every time
I think about it. Yeah, it's amazing how much our
self worth is based on For athletes, it's on your performance.
And you know, I never thought about from your perspective.
(13:14):
Right now, I'm saying, like, wow, there's so much pressure
on their own self worth of how good you are,
what you are in the sport and in the industry. Um,
and you forget that you are being a normal person
is something that you don't get to be most of
the time. Yeah. Yeah. The weird thing about you know,
playing a sport for a living is that you do,
(13:35):
and especially being wired the way I was, you live
and die with the score of the game and the
box score. And when that's over, if you've only based
your self worth on that, now what, now what? And
(13:56):
you're naturally gonna mourn something that you did for thirty
years since you were five years old. You put every moment,
waking moment into being a basketball player. If that's and
if you're wrapped up in it like that which I was,
you're gonna mourn the end of that career. You're gonna mourn,
(14:17):
you know, not being able to go down and do it,
not take out a little frustration on the practice court,
running into people and taking out a little aggression. You're
gonna mourn the addiction. And it is when you get
red hot, make three threes, get eleven points in under
a minute, and force the other coach to burn one
(14:38):
of his five time outs. That's an adrenaline rush that
you can't you can't bottle that you can't you can't
get that back. And when those things are gone. Um,
there's a big void. And I think that all of
that kind of played into me just right away falling
(14:58):
in love with this pain medication that I was really
using for my sadness to kind of mask what I
was feeling, and it was just a slippery, slippery slope
met artests. What was the one thing you didn't get
to ask him about? Yeah, I did. I might have
(15:20):
mentioned it earlier. I would have liked to have gone
in because I didn't really. I guess maybe I had forgotten,
you know, just how funky the relationship with Ben Wallace was,
And understandably I could have forgotten because I spent much
of that less, much of that time on pain killers.
(15:42):
So but when I got done with with Ron's pod
and it was I think it was the first one
we did. Um, I felt good about it, but it
was just the first one, and I didn't know what
to expect, and I wanted to be sure that whatever
we did, it was gonna make him, you know, uh,
allow him to be able to tell his story because
(16:04):
he's a terrific storyteller. The other thing about that just
blew me away with him. I mean, we're in the
first ten minutes of the pod and out of nowhere
he said he was going to be an engineer, wanted
to be an engineer. I think, Um, I was like
what he said, Yeah, I was gonna go down to Miami.
And you hear him talking and then he starts talking
(16:26):
about the public housing in uh New York and new
about the different buildings, And you wouldn't have known this
about about him. You wouldn't have known it if he
hadn't felt comfortable enough to sit down and spend an hour,
hour and a half talking to me about it. And
I think that's really valuable. You know, everybody we talked
(16:48):
about mental health all the time, and back when Meta
was kind of going through he was kind of at
the peak of his basketball powers, he was probably also
at the peak of his mental worst. And he'll tell
you that, Um, he was constantly trying to work on himself.
(17:09):
The problem with that was it wasn't in a day
and age where people could say that out loud and
not be judged for it. So he was trying to,
you know, go to therapy and do these things during
a time where if people found out about that, they
would have made fun of him. And I'm just happy
that now at he's not fifty yet, but in his forties,
(17:32):
his you know, he's gonna make a bigger difference what
he's doing now and for the rest of his life
than he did as a basketball player. And he had
one hell of a career. He did, he truly did.
And and then his voice is so powerful and it's
exciting to see what he's gonna do next. She spoke
a little bit aout Jason Williams. Um, what about his
(17:55):
uh sort of situation made it feel so tragic? A Um,
you know, Jason For people that might not have remembered,
Jason was kind of Charles Barkley before Charles as a
media person. Uh. When Jason broke his leg and his
and essentially ended his career, he went straight into working
(18:16):
for NBC and killing it. I mean, he was doing
like Olympic coverage and was He's just uh magic on television,
a bigger than life personality. And we were contemporaries. I mean,
I think I think he's a couple of years older,
but we were in the same I think in the
same draft or one draft apart maybe. So I've known
(18:39):
Jay a long time and one of my good buddies.
Was on Jason's team, uh in Jersey, and that's Sam
Booie And so Sam and I really are really close,
and therefore Jason and I kind of became buddies as
well during that time when I didn't play on his
team or anything, I just kind of knew him through Sam,
(19:02):
and so I've known all these stories. Um, Jason had
a bad alcohol problem. Uh, He'd be the first to
tell you when it ran in his family. Hearing him
explain about his sister, you know, being beaten within an
inch of her life and all of the horrible things
(19:24):
he witnessed as a kid. If you can listen to
that and and not have some sort of empathy for
for Jason Williams, then I don't know. You're you're a
lot colder than I am. I guess I I he
what a story, what a life? And it'd be one
thing if he, you know, was just farting around and
(19:46):
not not doing anything. Now he's every day waking up
and and trying to be the best version of himself
and trying to really help others. And he has he
Jake constantly has six or seven p pulled down in
Florida with him getting up in the morning at five am,
going to lift, going out on a boat, power boat,
(20:07):
going jet skiing. Um, people who are really trying to
get their life back on track, and he shows them
a model. It doesn't work for everybody, but Jason is
a great motivator, and I'm just so proud of what
he's done. And you know, I was hesitant to even
ask him to do this because I know how hard
it is for him to do and how and to
(20:28):
talk about. But he's so good at it. He's so
good at it, and I think it's important for people
to hear his story. You know, one of my favorite
interviews with with Kyle Brian because it was such a
different sort of experience and such a different sort of
refreshing perspective. Tell me about that, Tell me about what
you thought about this, getting into that conversation and and
(20:50):
making sure you do justice to what was so relevant
at time. Man. Uh, that's you know the other ones
that we did, even Jay Sin where you talk about,
you know, someone dying. The interview with Kat I was
really nervous about and and I think I told her
right away, I you know, I felt wholly unqualified to
(21:13):
to do that. Interview. I'd never you know, kind of
new to the interviewing process, and I wanted to be
sure and be able to give her the platform to
tell her story exactly how she wanted to be. You know,
when you're talking to someone that you've never met before
about being raped, you know, I just didn't I didn't
(21:33):
want to suck it up, you know what happened to her.
I have daughters. I have three daughters, and it's just
hard to have sisters. It's just hard to think about.
And um, you know, to be taking advantage of of
by someone when you're just doing your job, interviewing, going
(21:55):
to interview someone. The audacity of a man to take
advantage of a young a young girl early twenties is
just an abomination. And um, I just wanted to be
sure that she could tell her story. And man, did
she know what an example of of grace and um
(22:18):
and power she's I'm maybe as as proud of that
one as any of them that we've done. Yeah, it
was it was so powerful I felt. And um, having
the man's perspective, I think it's you know, and I
feel like that's sort of our duty to make sure
we can tell other men this story because I think
(22:41):
all the women know this, they all know that it's unfair.
They all have been dealing with this, and uh, you know,
to give her a platform and to hear her voice,
you're really speaking to a lot of men, you know
in general too, like this is you, this is what's happening,
This is what you need to understand, and you understand
the perspective. And I felt that was that was super powerful.
(23:03):
So many of your guests talks about the emotional toll
of being an athlete. Power is to manage all these
different things, you know, money, fame, failures, and also the success.
What have you learned about how our society, you know,
views and sees professional athletes, You know, athletes are still
(23:24):
they're they're looked at it and as sort of these
superhuman type of people and when you know that's definitely
not not the case. Um, amazing, amazing athletes. But man,
we're all here, We're all just we're all people with
thoughts inside of our heads. And UM, I think that
(23:49):
what's been great about this is, you know, hearing some
of your childhood idols, hockey players and tennis players, and
hearing these people talk about you know, ship that's happened
in their life. We all have ship. You never know
what someone else is going through, And honestly, I feel
like that that was a big issue with me from
(24:11):
the time I was a teenager. I knew deep down
that I was not this all American kid. That I
was not, you know, the university needed me to be
like this all American, academic, white kid from the home state,
(24:33):
and I wasn't that I knew. Heck, at the time,
I knew I kind of was depressed and I suffered
from some kind of mental illness. I didn't know what
it was. I just knew I was unhappy most of
the time. Um, but I think people don't really maybe
understand that the pressures that young people can face and
(24:55):
how it can weigh on them mentally, and uh, you know,
I I go back, I think back, and you're just
trying to juggle a lot and you don't really have
the resources to bounce things off of people. Hopefully that's
changing now. Hopefully you know, young young people can and
will reach out if they need help, uh, to manage situations.
(25:17):
But back in the eighties, it just wasn't that way. Yeah, No,
I think I think it is changing. Right. I mean,
if you're a twenty three year old athlete and there's
a podcast like this and you grew up watching Matt
barn and Stephen Jackson um PONZI wells. I mean this
is they're speaking their truth and they're I go, well,
(25:37):
that's okay, then I can do it and I can
change that. And that's how, you know, and culture changes, right,
And I think that's that's that's exciting. Do you feel
like that is changing that the the overall sort of
um perspective of an athlete in the media and mainstream
I think so, you know, and I think that, you know,
(25:58):
we can't brush off the the outspokenness of guys like
Damarta Rosen and Kevin Love in the last you know,
two or three years who have who have talked about it.
And I think I spoke about it, um not long ago,
if not on a pod with a friend. You know.
There was a guy named Willie Burton when I was playing.
(26:19):
He was a year or two behind me, played for
the Miami Heat. Willie got fifty in a in an
NBA game once. He was a really good player, but
in the early nineties he had a he just sort
of had a breakdown, and uh, you know, he came
out and acknowledged that he suffered from depression, and the world,
(26:41):
the media ship on him, like depression, What do you
have to be depressed about? You're making a million dollars
a year playing basketball for the Miami Heat. Now you
can imagine what that would have done to Willie. You
can imagine what it would do to anybody you know
you'd be hesitant to And Willie spent years, you know,
(27:02):
battling alcoholism after that. Um, So, Damar de Rosen and
Kevin Love can come out now and talk about it
and not get blowback negative blowback. Um, they do get
some blowbacks. Can not get it and that, yeah, they
get a little bit. But but you know, even Dak Prescott,
which a year or so ago, you know, he came
(27:24):
out after his brother had had committed suicide and said
he was struggling, and the amount of people that shipped
on him saying, well, you're supposed to be a quarterback
of the Dallas Cowboys, how can you show weakness? And
what what if anything, he's showing strength? Rightly, you had
(27:51):
more than a few people, you know, struggle with addiction
like you did. Um, did you learn anything from the
stories helps you on your path, you know. Yeah, you
always pick things up from people. The people that really
did struggle with addiction, A couple of hockey players, Chris Herron, Uh,
(28:13):
you know, many of the many of the people that
we've had on the best part about it, I think
is seeing that and you could hear people, you know,
A A isn't for everyone, Rehab isn't for everyone. Um,
twelve steps aren't for everyone. I think that there is
something for everyone, though, You've just got to find what
(28:34):
that is. And we had so many different guests who
had different ways of staying clean and sober, and those
were the things that I, you know, like to hear.
I like to hear how are you doing it? What
do you do? Um? What do you do to remind
yourself every day? I don't like talking about this stuff,
so in my regular life, if I don't have to
(28:56):
talk about it, I don't talk about it. But it's
good is when you do talk about it with someone else,
it reminds you that, oh, yeah, other people are going
through this every day right along with you. Rex, everybody,
somebody out there is going through this, and it's good
to kind of say misery loves company, but it is
(29:17):
kind of good to commiserate from time to time with
people with like backgrounds who had some of the same
issues and trying to learn and figure out just how
they're doing it and getting by every day. I think
that's really powerful. Do you feel like you're still in recovery? Oh? Yeah, yeah,
I think I always will feel that way. Um, how
(29:38):
is your day to day go? I know you spoke
about it's been past a little bit, but what is
your day to day like, I mean, is this still
creep into your head? No, I'm really lucky from a
standpoint that. Um, when I well, I I use medical
marijuana and I have for the last six or seven years.
(29:59):
I've never once had what I would uh. And this
wasn't the case when I got out of rehab the
times before. I always had sort of uh. What I
felt like was this yearning or jones ng for you know,
pain killers. I haven't had one now. Some of that was,
I think too. I had developed ulcers during that time,
(30:22):
and maybe some of that was I was needing it
for the pain of the ulcers. But I don't. I
swim every day, I get up, I try to go
swim every day at least five days a week. Um,
I walk. Those two things get me away from my
phone for a while. I can just be in the water,
uh forty five minutes to an hour sort some things
(30:44):
out in my head. I feel like I've kind of
earned the rest of my day, you know. And there
then there are times that you know, I need to talk.
And you know, I still have my therapist that I
talked to regularly, and I'll give her a call and
we'll talk about things. The life's hard, man, and it's
hard for everyone. I always feel like the people who
pretend like it's just great all the time are really
(31:05):
either are super super lucky or they're full of ship.
So um, but life's hard. And you know, I try
to stay on top of myself because I know, um
how easily it can go the other way. Wow, that's
strong man. With mental health and addiction, what do you
think needs to be done about this issue inside and
(31:27):
outside of sports? Well, you know, I think hopefully colleges
will uh step up and make sure that they have
mental health professionals on staff. Uh. You know, basketball program,
football program, everybody has mental health professionals. I'm really proud
of the n b A and what they've done over
(31:48):
the last two years, they have, UM, you know, implemented
a system where each team must have a mental health
professional on staff. UM. And I think that's a step
in the right direction. Now, if I'm a player and
I've some issues that mine necessarily going to go to
the in house therapist, UM, I don't know, because I
don't know how as a twenty five year old, I
(32:09):
don't know how comfortable I would feel with that person
not running and telling my business to the coaches and
the and people that you know are on the inside.
I think it's a step in the right direction. But
more than anything, I'm just happy that we're doing something
about it. You know, we saw in the Olympics last
(32:32):
year with Naomi Osaka and Someone Biles and and these
young ladies who were anybody who could possibly think that
Someone Biles just opted out because she was scared of
what she's the greatest gymnast of all times, she got
a mental block and could have really hurt herself. In fact,
(32:56):
if she'd gone on and just fucked her routine up,
they'd lost the medal. What she did was get out
of the way so that the team could excel. And
I just think there has to continue to be more
dialogue where people can they can say, hey, look I
need a day. I don't need to do the media today.
(33:17):
I'm not feeling it and not be judged for it.
You know, these people are out here entertaining us, entertaining us,
and you know, I think it's the least we can
do is to have some compassion for how they're feeling
mentally from time to time. And the one I mean,
I think that's it's it's so crazy how these conversations
(33:37):
were just having a conversation about therapy like that needs
to be brought out in the forefront, right, I mean,
I mean, do you remember in Sopranos when the therapists
was talking, you know, it was like, wow, that's crazy.
That would just show something like that. And almost every
TV show now has a therapist somewhere in it, and
it's becoming more of a thing like, oh, I should
(34:00):
to get a therapist, I should talk to therapy. How
does that become part of just the integral part of sports?
You know, I'm not sure, but you know, and I
was talking about this the other day with a friend.
Rehab is terrible going to rehabilitation like drug rehab. It's awful,
(34:23):
There's no two ways about it. But if you're in
there and you're trying, and you're being earnest and you
are you know, listening, it's one of the most fascinating places,
uh you can ever learn from other people, people from
(34:47):
different walks, uh, different socioeconomic backgrounds, different races, um genders.
And you know when we say it often in in
therapy that when you get into a group like that
and you start talking about your problems, you realize your
(35:09):
problems aren't you know, you wouldn't trade with these other
people your problems. You know, everybody's got a lot of ship,
and you start listening to other people's stuff and you
realize that your problems are maybe aren't as as great
as you thought. Um. So it gives you a healthy
dose of perspective because you realize, really and truly you
(35:31):
see people breaking down and crying and their most vulnerable
and worse time around no family members, blabbing to complete strangers.
And there's something very powerful about that if you're you
know again, I went to rehab three times. In the
first two times, I didn't really pay attention. The last
(35:52):
time I did, and I'm so thankful for it. Do
you think going forward? I mean, it sounds like you
have a passion for this sort of you of of
conversation of issues and of dealing with issues and getting
people to tell their stories, right this is is this
something that you think you will always want to do
going forward? Or is this just this charges episodes? Um? No,
(36:15):
you know, I think I think the response has been
so so positive that there's obviously a a bit of
a niche for it. I think, um, people want to
hear these stories, and you know, if I weren't doing them,
I think I would you know, if somebody told me
(36:36):
about a pod like that, I'd be like, Okay, I'm
gonna check that one out. And I think the other
thing for me that kind of makes me want to continue,
uh doing it is that almost every episode, well every episode,
we'll get into the the questions and at some point
I forget we're even doing a podcast. I forget and
(36:59):
get So we have two or three times today you
just get engrossed in the conversation and you kind of
forget everything else and everyone else. Um and in this
short attention span world, you know, forty five minutes or
an hour's about as much as anybody can can hang on.
I'm just I'm happy that our guys have done such
a fantastic job producing this this show and kind of
(37:22):
bringing it to life. Um so, what has been the
feedback from this? Has there been moments, letters, messages, dm
s that are just kind of blew your mind. I
get about a year ago I opened up my direct
Messages on Twitter where anybody can send messages, and um,
you know, I there's no way to go through all
(37:42):
of them, but every day, every day, and if you
just look at the comments on Twitter when we post
the episodes, but every day, uh, direct messages from just
people who well they don't even know if I'm going
to see their messages to begin in with, right, they
don't know if I'm gonna look at them. And people
just open up their hearts and they're like my brother,
(38:05):
you know, he went to service a few years ago,
came back, big drug problem, my dad, my mom. So
there's definitely something there where it's touching some kind of
a piece of these people when they listen to the
pod that prompts them to want to express uh you
know how they felt listening to it and that's really
cool since we're near Christmas. Um, I always think about
(38:33):
this the movie It's a wonderful life, right, and going
back in time and gain perspective, right, which is a
big sort of theme. We've been discussing about it here
as is perspective, and um, so I'm gonna put you,
uh back in time as it goes to yourself. We're
gonna go to uh somewhat dark face going to the
(38:54):
jail cell with that naked dude who was jacking off. Yeah,
I mean that changed sensitivid picture for me. I don't
think I'll ever forget that story. Yeah. Yeah, And you
know you're seeing yourself in the mirror and then and
now you're there. What would you tell that Rex at
(39:14):
that moment? Or would you just let him go? You know,
obviously you never forget it. But I was so confused
as to what was happening. I think I kind of
knew why why I was in there, but nobody was
telling me at this point. And I was just really
(39:36):
really confused, and also had and made a phone call.
And you can imagine two taking a lot of pain
medicine and I, you know, you used to know all
your friends phone numbers. I don't know any phone numbers now,
they're just under a name in my phone. And so
(39:57):
one of the officers said, uh, you know you can
make a call. I said, I don't know any phone numbers.
So you brought my phone, said find the number. As
soon as I turned my phone on, it was just
blowing up because I guess you know, news had reported
that I had been arrested. But I only saw one
message just pop right up and as my best friend
(40:19):
Josh Hopkins, and he said, I don't know what happened,
just know that I love you and it's gonna be okay.
And I had so many of those. I don't know
that I could. I don't know what I would tell
myself in that cell other than just stay the course,
(40:39):
because you know, I had people. I had people from
that day forward telling me, hey, Rex, just relax, a
year from now, your life is going to be so good. Well,
all those people fucking lied to me. It took longer
(40:59):
than a year. Then it would be the next year.
You know, I'm still in legal problems. You know, it
seems like two steps forward, one step back. Um, even
a year later, it's still sucked, but slowly but surely
things started getting better. And it probably took a good
(41:20):
five years before I could have ever said, you know
that I felt like things were starting to kind of,
you know, go in the right direction. I'm not the
most patient person in the world. And those five years
three two, three four or five years of really you know,
building back and trying to re established myself in some
(41:41):
kind of career. Um, it was hard as ship at first.
And it's still you know, Um, it's all good, it's
all good stuff, but even good stuff is stressful. And
so you know, there's more on my plate and I
gotta stay more diligent about doing things that I have
(42:01):
to do for my mental health every day. If I
don't do those things, I could just you know, fall
right off. So, UM, I'm just I'm grateful. I'm grateful
to still be here and be able to you know,
be doing something with this that's kind of making a
positive impact, that's making a super positive thing. In fact,
it's it's a huge if fact this is I'm just
(42:23):
I'm so proud to be a part of this series
and and you know that talk to you on this
last episode. Um, thanks, bro, here's a big question. You
may not have the answer yet, But where do you
want to take this show next and what are your
hopes and dreams for it? Well, you know, as powerful
as the some of the pods have been doing them
(42:47):
in this format, you know, really on the computer. Um,
I think it's been fantastic. I think when Steve and
Ezra and Brandon, those guys set out, I think we
all kind of uh pictured it being an in person
kind of thing. And my feeling on that is that
(43:12):
it's sort of tailor made for for TV or streaming.
And you know, I'm just thinking back about, you know,
a handful of that we did this year. If we
were able to sit in the studio with the guys
one on one, with the people one on one, I
think that you're liable to get even more, even more stuff,
(43:32):
even more honesty and um so you know, who knows
where it'll go. But I wouldn't mind trying that as
you will, as you should. Man, I'm excited to keep
telling these stories and doing so in a way that
reaches as many people as possible. It seems every week
there's a new scandal with an athlete at the center
(43:54):
of it, and there's not a lot of nuance when
it just explodes on Twitter or in the media. So
I'm hoping this will be a forum where we can
give space to talk about these issues openly and honestly
and really really learn from what people have gone through.
All Right, that's a rap FV. That's a wrap on
Season one of Charges. I want to thank all of
(44:14):
our guests for bravely sharing their stories with me and
you and our listeners. I want to thank our production
crew DV Podcast Jordans, Miles, Ben and Scott. I also
want to thank the team at port Lay and I
Heart Radio, and I want to thank Control Media and
my former teammate and my buddy Stevie Nash. This has
been one hell of a ride and it feels like
(44:37):
we're just getting started. Charges Severing no run NaNs with
the Law charges, Lee send the tennis and balls and charges.
The celebrity gankums charges we came along with from Living Law.
That's charges Seveing, no run NaNs with the Law charges,
Lee send the tennis and balls and charges the celebrity
gank bums charge we came along with from Living Lawless Charge.
(45:00):
Charges as created by Portalay and Control Media, is produced
by DV podcasts in association with I heart Radio. For
more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit i heart radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome to Charges. I'm your host, Rex Chapman. Wow. When
an incredible journey this first season of Charges has been.
You know, when I started this process and this podcast,
I wasn't totally sure what to expect of me as
a host, of our guests and their desire to be
open with me, and of the reception of the show.
(00:23):
I must tell you it's been incredible. The guests we've had,
the stories they've told, the moments and relationships, and most importantly,
the feedback and responses we've received from our listeners. It
has made me so proud. For now, I wanted to
put the finishing touch on season one, and as my
guest today knows, no matter how nice the drive or
(00:43):
the attempt, what really matters is the finish and finishing strong.
So my thought for this topic was to bring on filmmaker, producer, director,
and basketball fan Evan leon helped me sort through all
we've been through this season and have a discussion about
the process of telling stories. You may know the name
Evan Leong from his work as director of documentary Len
(01:07):
Sanity about the incredible rise of Jeremy Lynn on the
New York Knicks. But if you've seen the film. You
know that the story we all kind of knew about Jeremy,
there was so much more and that documentary is a
must see for any sports fan. This is Charges Charges Evan.
(01:31):
Welcome to Charges, buddy. It's really really great to be here.
I mean volume twenty, I mean, I'm I'm become a
super fan of the show, and you know, it's truly
truly honored to be here. Why do you like the show?
Why do I like the show? I mean this is
you create this level of empathy and vulnerability that it's
just so hard to to see, you know, to experience
(01:53):
these days. Right, I think you know the way this
industry works, and especially the sports industry. You know, we're
trained to think of athletes as a brand, as an
idea of as as as simple as icon. But you know,
they're humans. They're just like me. They're just like you know,
every all the fans out there. You know what's weird
about that is, I'm we talked about the vulnerability. I know,
(02:15):
when I started speaking to groups about drug issues and whatnot,
the main thing that people want want to see and
here is your vulnerability. They want to know that you're
you're human, just like they are, And then I thought,
our guests all season long this year. You know, obviously
they're coming on a show called charges Um with my
(02:36):
mug shot on the things, so they know they're not
going to talk about the best times of their life.
But what I think that, you know, our our whole
crew has done a terrific job of just you know,
really researching the guys and ladies and gentlemen that we've
had on the show. And you know, obviously we try
(02:56):
to build everybody up as much as we can, UM,
but then they know they're coming on to talk about
arguably the worst time in their life. And I just
can't say enough about these people who have come on
and shared these amazing stories with us. Yeah, I mean,
it's exciting to see you know, I mean, I grew
up in the same area as you, the eighties and
the nineties, masculinity, man protection. We don't share our emotions
(03:20):
and and it's crazy to see how honest we can
be in right, And it's exciting to have someone like
you be, you know, one of these these culture makers
of this era. And so Um, I'm really excited to
talk to you about all these things because you know,
episode one to episode twenty. This is I've got to
see you grow as well. Yeah, yeah, you know. Uh
(03:45):
when Steve Nash and and uh Ezra and Brandon are producers,
the guys who kind of came up with this idea.
When they contacted me about it, I couldn't really visualize that.
I'm not that bright anyway, but they I couldn't really
even tell what they were talking about until we started
getting into it. And then once I got the concept,
(04:06):
I was like, oh man, you know, if we do
that the right way, it might be pretty compelling and
just to see, you know, and to be completely honest,
I'd never interviewed anybody ever ever. You know, Um, I've
been interviewed since I was fifteen, and you know, can
do this stuff much better than being the host. So
I was very nervous and still get nervous doing this stuff.
(04:29):
The other part about it that I found and I
hearing back from some of the people that have been
on the show. If you've been in therapy or if
you've been in treatment, you've probably been in therapy and
it feels cathartic in many ways. When I get I
worry about doing the show because I want to do
(04:51):
right by the guests. Inevitably, though, when I get off,
I just feel better. I feel like, Okay, well, you know,
we've talked through some pretty tough and motions today and
you feel like, you know, well, I've put in a
good day's work. So that's been really rewarding. What made
you want to do a show like this? What were
you hoping for? You know, Steve and I have known
each other for twenty some years now, and um, he's
(05:14):
just he's the best. And when he called and said, hey,
you know, would you be interested in doing this again?
I I've just kind of been building my life back
for the last few years and I was looking for
more to do, and um, you know, it took us
a little while, and then obviously the pandemic set in.
I think we were going to try to do you know,
(05:35):
a lot of this stuff live or with people in person,
but that kind of the pandemic kind of pushed everything
to zoom. So you know, we've we've tried to adjust
and I think it's gone really well. I'm so thankful
for the guests, but uh, yeah, there were a lot
of nerves going into it, for sure. Yeah, besides becoming
(05:56):
you know, a talent you know, becoming more in this
media world. What were you hoping for? Is there anything
personally you're looking for? No, you know, I before I
say no, I think that you know, I'm constantly looking
for redemption and trying to you know, redeem myself. And yeah,
(06:20):
as much for me, but for my my kids. You know,
I've got kids that are twenty nine and twenty six
and twenty two and twenty one, and when I was
going through my ship, they were young people, and um,
you know I I'm just constantly trying to make up,
make up for you know, things that I've done and
(06:40):
and try to hopefully redeem myself continue to redeem myself
in their eyes. So yeah, I wanted to try to
do something positive. And yes, we're talking about you know,
drugs and alcohol and um, you know, people going to
jail in prison and stuff like that. And I don't
know if it can be called uplifting. I think the
(07:00):
way that we've gone about doing it where we you know,
we talked about this person's whole career, all the good stuff,
and then give them the opportunity to talk about you know,
the episode we did with Bonds E Wells I thought
was really powerful um, you know, because I remember that
jail blazers team, jail blazers. Do you remember the first
(07:25):
time you heard the term jail blazers? How did it
make you feel? Man? When I first heard it, man,
I thought it was cool at first, because you know
what I'm saying, I didn't understand. I wasn't thinking about
the cultural part of it. In a weird way, it
kind of reminded me of like the Raiders, you know,
or the bad Boys, Like that was bad boys. That
(07:46):
was our identity. Like okay, that's who we are with
some bad boys. You know what I'm saying. I like
I internalized that in my mind. Is like it's in
term of endearment at first, you know what I mean,
Like okay, but until they just started, you know, putting
thugs said, you know, you're we read the articles and stuff.
So then when you can start seeing the thugs and
quotes and all this stuff, you be like, hold up, bro,
hold up, hold up, and I can call us jail
(08:07):
blazers and we are here on some tough guys stuff,
but don't put that on us, like we're really going
to jail and we're doing this stuff, because that's real,
Like they don't understand, like how that stuff follows you
throughout your whole life and your whole career and and
one thing as a black man, we don't want our
names associated with being in jail the rest of the league.
(08:30):
At the time, you know, this was kind of pre internet.
Really um, we were like, man, the media is treating
those guys really bad, really bad. And talking to Bondsi,
I just it. It just kept coming back to me
as I'm watching him, I'm like, man, I wish you
and Rashid could have had a podcast when you were playing.
(08:52):
While you guys were going through this, so that the
public could know from your standpoint what was going on
and not constantly being fed the the Trailblazer's PR team
or some or a writer's opinion. We were able to
get it. I think all of these have just been
amazing because we're able to get, you know, the story
(09:13):
right from the source. I don't normally listen to the
things that I do or watch the things that I do,
because I normally don't like any of the stuff that
I do. But I did listen to about the first
fifteen or twenty minutes of Jason's pod and just started crying,
just started crying. And I know the story. I've known
(09:34):
him for thirty years, so real quick. I grew up
on the Louist side of Manhattan. I came home. I
was about thirteen and a half years old. Uh. I
was staying with my sister at the time. We would
only live building. The building depend on how if I
missed curfew. That means when the lights went on outside,
(09:55):
I can always run over to her house and she
would tell a lie to my dad that I was
over there. But this time it was an awakening. I
got out the elevator, I saw your business amount of blood.
I looked down the hallway and the blood got thicker
and thicker, and it led until my sister's apartment when
I went into them. My sister six ft one, she's
(10:18):
about a hundred and thirty pounds. She was a model,
a supermodel. And Uh, A guy named Sergio, who I
did not know at the time. I found out his
name later, has stabbed us seventeen times. That beat over
the face with a hammer in the bathtub in front
(10:38):
of a two year old son, e J And uh,
that was just the start of it. I've heard the
story and he's just an amazing guy, and you talk
about it. It's one thing, you know, to go to
jail for shoplifting or whatever. Chasing acts only killed a guy,
(11:01):
and he fights that every single day and he's dedicated
his life to try to give back. He's helping so
many people down in Florida to try to get their
lives together. But he's in constant redemption mode. And there's
something you have to love about that. I think he
spoke a little bit about your family, right and uh,
(11:23):
you know you have your kids and this redemption idea. Um,
I mean, have you had this conversations about you know,
what you went through and what you're going through now?
Not so much now, but yeah, definitely. You know the
stuff that um, you know landed me in in jail
and in rehab three different times. They know that all
(11:45):
too well. Um, you know, they were there when I
was going to these rehab places. And you know that
was something that I never I never kept from family
and friends. Everybody that knew me. You know, Steve Nash
and Evan are are guys on here. Everybody knew that
I had an addiction to painkillers and that I had
(12:06):
been fighting it. I'd been in and how to rehab
in and ow to rehab and just it was nothing
I tried to keep from anybody. Um, but at some
point I just started isolating myself and hiding and I
didn't you know, Uh, I just wasn't very healthy and
mentally and um, you know, I'm grateful. I'm grateful every
(12:30):
day for the friends and family that I think growing
up and being known from such a young age, I
lost track of people that I I didn't know if
they loved me for me or if they love me
because I was a basketball player. And I think I
got kind of just got lost with that. And I've
been so heartened over the last few years to know that,
(12:53):
you know, there are people that really, you know, that
were there for me when they didn't have to be.
And uh almost makes me want to cry every time
I think about it. Yeah, it's amazing how much our
self worth is based on For athletes, it's on your performance.
And you know, I never thought about from your perspective.
(13:14):
Right now, I'm saying, like, wow, there's so much pressure
on their own self worth of how good you are,
what you are in the sport and in the industry. Um,
and you forget that you are being a normal person
is something that you don't get to be most of
the time. Yeah. Yeah. The weird thing about you know,
playing a sport for a living is that you do,
(13:35):
and especially being wired the way I was, you live
and die with the score of the game and the
box score. And when that's over, if you've only based
your self worth on that, now what, now what? And
(13:56):
you're naturally gonna mourn something that you did for thirty
years since you were five years old. You put every moment,
waking moment into being a basketball player. If that's and
if you're wrapped up in it like that which I was,
you're gonna mourn the end of that career. You're gonna mourn,
(14:17):
you know, not being able to go down and do it,
not take out a little frustration on the practice court,
running into people and taking out a little aggression. You're
gonna mourn the addiction. And it is when you get
red hot, make three threes, get eleven points in under
a minute, and force the other coach to burn one
(14:38):
of his five time outs. That's an adrenaline rush that
you can't you can't bottle that you can't you can't
get that back. And when those things are gone. Um,
there's a big void. And I think that all of
that kind of played into me just right away falling
(14:58):
in love with this pain medication that I was really
using for my sadness to kind of mask what I
was feeling, and it was just a slippery, slippery slope
met artests. What was the one thing you didn't get
to ask him about? Yeah, I did. I might have
(15:20):
mentioned it earlier. I would have liked to have gone
in because I didn't really. I guess maybe I had forgotten,
you know, just how funky the relationship with Ben Wallace was,
And understandably I could have forgotten because I spent much
of that less, much of that time on pain killers.
(15:42):
So but when I got done with with Ron's pod
and it was I think it was the first one
we did. Um, I felt good about it, but it
was just the first one, and I didn't know what
to expect, and I wanted to be sure that whatever
we did, it was gonna make him, you know, uh,
allow him to be able to tell his story because
(16:04):
he's a terrific storyteller. The other thing about that just
blew me away with him. I mean, we're in the
first ten minutes of the pod and out of nowhere
he said he was going to be an engineer, wanted
to be an engineer. I think, Um, I was like
what he said, Yeah, I was gonna go down to Miami.
And you hear him talking and then he starts talking
(16:26):
about the public housing in uh New York and new
about the different buildings, And you wouldn't have known this
about about him. You wouldn't have known it if he
hadn't felt comfortable enough to sit down and spend an hour,
hour and a half talking to me about it. And
I think that's really valuable. You know, everybody we talked
(16:48):
about mental health all the time, and back when Meta
was kind of going through he was kind of at
the peak of his basketball powers, he was probably also
at the peak of his mental worst. And he'll tell
you that, Um, he was constantly trying to work on himself.
(17:09):
The problem with that was it wasn't in a day
and age where people could say that out loud and
not be judged for it. So he was trying to,
you know, go to therapy and do these things during
a time where if people found out about that, they
would have made fun of him. And I'm just happy
that now at he's not fifty yet, but in his forties,
(17:32):
his you know, he's gonna make a bigger difference what
he's doing now and for the rest of his life
than he did as a basketball player. And he had
one hell of a career. He did, he truly did.
And and then his voice is so powerful and it's
exciting to see what he's gonna do next. She spoke
a little bit aout Jason Williams. Um, what about his
(17:55):
uh sort of situation made it feel so tragic? A Um,
you know, Jason For people that might not have remembered,
Jason was kind of Charles Barkley before Charles as a
media person. Uh. When Jason broke his leg and his
and essentially ended his career, he went straight into working
(18:16):
for NBC and killing it. I mean, he was doing
like Olympic coverage and was He's just uh magic on television,
a bigger than life personality. And we were contemporaries. I mean,
I think I think he's a couple of years older,
but we were in the same I think in the
same draft or one draft apart maybe. So I've known
(18:39):
Jay a long time and one of my good buddies.
Was on Jason's team, uh in Jersey, and that's Sam
Booie And so Sam and I really are really close,
and therefore Jason and I kind of became buddies as
well during that time when I didn't play on his
team or anything, I just kind of knew him through Sam,
(19:02):
and so I've known all these stories. Um, Jason had
a bad alcohol problem. Uh, He'd be the first to
tell you when it ran in his family. Hearing him
explain about his sister, you know, being beaten within an
inch of her life and all of the horrible things
(19:24):
he witnessed as a kid. If you can listen to
that and and not have some sort of empathy for
for Jason Williams, then I don't know. You're you're a
lot colder than I am. I guess I I he
what a story, what a life? And it'd be one
thing if he, you know, was just farting around and
(19:46):
not not doing anything. Now he's every day waking up
and and trying to be the best version of himself
and trying to really help others. And he has he
Jake constantly has six or seven p pulled down in
Florida with him getting up in the morning at five am,
going to lift, going out on a boat, power boat,
(20:07):
going jet skiing. Um, people who are really trying to
get their life back on track, and he shows them
a model. It doesn't work for everybody, but Jason is
a great motivator, and I'm just so proud of what
he's done. And you know, I was hesitant to even
ask him to do this because I know how hard
it is for him to do and how and to
(20:28):
talk about. But he's so good at it. He's so
good at it, and I think it's important for people
to hear his story. You know, one of my favorite
interviews with with Kyle Brian because it was such a
different sort of experience and such a different sort of
refreshing perspective. Tell me about that, Tell me about what
you thought about this, getting into that conversation and and
(20:50):
making sure you do justice to what was so relevant
at time. Man. Uh, that's you know the other ones
that we did, even Jay Sin where you talk about,
you know, someone dying. The interview with Kat I was
really nervous about and and I think I told her
right away, I you know, I felt wholly unqualified to
(21:13):
to do that. Interview. I'd never you know, kind of
new to the interviewing process, and I wanted to be
sure and be able to give her the platform to
tell her story exactly how she wanted to be. You know,
when you're talking to someone that you've never met before
about being raped, you know, I just didn't I didn't
(21:33):
want to suck it up, you know what happened to her.
I have daughters. I have three daughters, and it's just
hard to have sisters. It's just hard to think about.
And um, you know, to be taking advantage of of
by someone when you're just doing your job, interviewing, going
(21:55):
to interview someone. The audacity of a man to take
advantage of a young a young girl early twenties is
just an abomination. And um, I just wanted to be
sure that she could tell her story. And man, did
she know what an example of of grace and um
(22:18):
and power she's I'm maybe as as proud of that
one as any of them that we've done. Yeah, it
was it was so powerful I felt. And um, having
the man's perspective, I think it's you know, and I
feel like that's sort of our duty to make sure
we can tell other men this story because I think
(22:41):
all the women know this, they all know that it's unfair.
They all have been dealing with this, and uh, you know,
to give her a platform and to hear her voice,
you're really speaking to a lot of men, you know
in general too, like this is you, this is what's happening,
This is what you need to understand, and you understand
the perspective. And I felt that was that was super powerful.
(23:03):
So many of your guests talks about the emotional toll
of being an athlete. Power is to manage all these
different things, you know, money, fame, failures, and also the success.
What have you learned about how our society, you know,
views and sees professional athletes, You know, athletes are still
(23:24):
they're they're looked at it and as sort of these
superhuman type of people and when you know that's definitely
not not the case. Um, amazing, amazing athletes. But man,
we're all here, We're all just we're all people with
thoughts inside of our heads. And UM, I think that
(23:49):
what's been great about this is, you know, hearing some
of your childhood idols, hockey players and tennis players, and
hearing these people talk about you know, ship that's happened
in their life. We all have ship. You never know
what someone else is going through, And honestly, I feel
like that that was a big issue with me from
(24:11):
the time I was a teenager. I knew deep down
that I was not this all American kid. That I
was not, you know, the university needed me to be
like this all American, academic, white kid from the home state,
(24:33):
and I wasn't that I knew. Heck, at the time,
I knew I kind of was depressed and I suffered
from some kind of mental illness. I didn't know what
it was. I just knew I was unhappy most of
the time. Um, but I think people don't really maybe
understand that the pressures that young people can face and
(24:55):
how it can weigh on them mentally, and uh, you know,
I I go back, I think back, and you're just
trying to juggle a lot and you don't really have
the resources to bounce things off of people. Hopefully that's
changing now. Hopefully you know, young young people can and
will reach out if they need help, uh, to manage situations.
(25:17):
But back in the eighties, it just wasn't that way. Yeah, No,
I think I think it is changing. Right. I mean,
if you're a twenty three year old athlete and there's
a podcast like this and you grew up watching Matt
barn and Stephen Jackson um PONZI wells. I mean this
is they're speaking their truth and they're I go, well,
(25:37):
that's okay, then I can do it and I can
change that. And that's how, you know, and culture changes, right,
And I think that's that's that's exciting. Do you feel
like that is changing that the the overall sort of
um perspective of an athlete in the media and mainstream
I think so, you know, and I think that, you know,
(25:58):
we can't brush off the the outspokenness of guys like
Damarta Rosen and Kevin Love in the last you know,
two or three years who have who have talked about it.
And I think I spoke about it, um not long ago,
if not on a pod with a friend. You know.
There was a guy named Willie Burton when I was playing.
(26:19):
He was a year or two behind me, played for
the Miami Heat. Willie got fifty in a in an
NBA game once. He was a really good player, but
in the early nineties he had a he just sort
of had a breakdown, and uh, you know, he came
out and acknowledged that he suffered from depression, and the world,
(26:41):
the media ship on him, like depression, What do you
have to be depressed about? You're making a million dollars
a year playing basketball for the Miami Heat. Now you
can imagine what that would have done to Willie. You
can imagine what it would do to anybody you know
you'd be hesitant to And Willie spent years, you know,
(27:02):
battling alcoholism after that. Um, So, Damar de Rosen and
Kevin Love can come out now and talk about it
and not get blowback negative blowback. Um, they do get
some blowbacks. Can not get it and that, yeah, they
get a little bit. But but you know, even Dak Prescott,
which a year or so ago, you know, he came
(27:24):
out after his brother had had committed suicide and said
he was struggling, and the amount of people that shipped
on him saying, well, you're supposed to be a quarterback
of the Dallas Cowboys, how can you show weakness? And
what what if anything, he's showing strength? Rightly, you had
(27:51):
more than a few people, you know, struggle with addiction
like you did. Um, did you learn anything from the
stories helps you on your path, you know. Yeah, you
always pick things up from people. The people that really
did struggle with addiction, A couple of hockey players, Chris Herron, Uh,
(28:13):
you know, many of the many of the people that
we've had on the best part about it, I think
is seeing that and you could hear people, you know,
A A isn't for everyone, Rehab isn't for everyone. Um,
twelve steps aren't for everyone. I think that there is
something for everyone, though, You've just got to find what
(28:34):
that is. And we had so many different guests who
had different ways of staying clean and sober, and those
were the things that I, you know, like to hear.
I like to hear how are you doing it? What
do you do? Um? What do you do to remind
yourself every day? I don't like talking about this stuff,
so in my regular life, if I don't have to
(28:56):
talk about it, I don't talk about it. But it's
good is when you do talk about it with someone else,
it reminds you that, oh, yeah, other people are going
through this every day right along with you. Rex, everybody,
somebody out there is going through this, and it's good
to kind of say misery loves company, but it is
(29:17):
kind of good to commiserate from time to time with
people with like backgrounds who had some of the same
issues and trying to learn and figure out just how
they're doing it and getting by every day. I think
that's really powerful. Do you feel like you're still in recovery? Oh? Yeah, yeah,
I think I always will feel that way. Um, how
(29:38):
is your day to day go? I know you spoke
about it's been past a little bit, but what is
your day to day like, I mean, is this still
creep into your head? No, I'm really lucky from a
standpoint that. Um, when I well, I I use medical
marijuana and I have for the last six or seven years.
(29:59):
I've never once had what I would uh. And this
wasn't the case when I got out of rehab the
times before. I always had sort of uh. What I
felt like was this yearning or jones ng for you know,
pain killers. I haven't had one now. Some of that was,
I think too. I had developed ulcers during that time,
(30:22):
and maybe some of that was I was needing it
for the pain of the ulcers. But I don't. I
swim every day, I get up, I try to go
swim every day at least five days a week. Um,
I walk. Those two things get me away from my
phone for a while. I can just be in the water,
uh forty five minutes to an hour sort some things
(30:44):
out in my head. I feel like I've kind of
earned the rest of my day, you know. And there
then there are times that you know, I need to talk.
And you know, I still have my therapist that I
talked to regularly, and I'll give her a call and
we'll talk about things. The life's hard, man, and it's
hard for everyone. I always feel like the people who
pretend like it's just great all the time are really
(31:05):
either are super super lucky or they're full of ship.
So um, but life's hard. And you know, I try
to stay on top of myself because I know, um
how easily it can go the other way. Wow, that's
strong man. With mental health and addiction, what do you
think needs to be done about this issue inside and
(31:27):
outside of sports? Well, you know, I think hopefully colleges
will uh step up and make sure that they have
mental health professionals on staff. Uh. You know, basketball program,
football program, everybody has mental health professionals. I'm really proud
of the n b A and what they've done over
(31:48):
the last two years, they have, UM, you know, implemented
a system where each team must have a mental health
professional on staff. UM. And I think that's a step
in the right direction. Now, if I'm a player and
I've some issues that mine necessarily going to go to
the in house therapist, UM, I don't know, because I
don't know how as a twenty five year old, I
(32:09):
don't know how comfortable I would feel with that person
not running and telling my business to the coaches and
the and people that you know are on the inside.
I think it's a step in the right direction. But
more than anything, I'm just happy that we're doing something
about it. You know, we saw in the Olympics last
(32:32):
year with Naomi Osaka and Someone Biles and and these
young ladies who were anybody who could possibly think that
Someone Biles just opted out because she was scared of
what she's the greatest gymnast of all times, she got
a mental block and could have really hurt herself. In fact,
(32:56):
if she'd gone on and just fucked her routine up,
they'd lost the medal. What she did was get out
of the way so that the team could excel. And
I just think there has to continue to be more
dialogue where people can they can say, hey, look I
need a day. I don't need to do the media today.
(33:17):
I'm not feeling it and not be judged for it.
You know, these people are out here entertaining us, entertaining us,
and you know, I think it's the least we can
do is to have some compassion for how they're feeling
mentally from time to time. And the one I mean,
I think that's it's it's so crazy how these conversations
(33:37):
were just having a conversation about therapy like that needs
to be brought out in the forefront, right, I mean,
I mean, do you remember in Sopranos when the therapists
was talking, you know, it was like, wow, that's crazy.
That would just show something like that. And almost every
TV show now has a therapist somewhere in it, and
it's becoming more of a thing like, oh, I should
(34:00):
to get a therapist, I should talk to therapy. How
does that become part of just the integral part of sports?
You know, I'm not sure, but you know, and I
was talking about this the other day with a friend.
Rehab is terrible going to rehabilitation like drug rehab. It's awful,
(34:23):
There's no two ways about it. But if you're in
there and you're trying, and you're being earnest and you
are you know, listening, it's one of the most fascinating places,
uh you can ever learn from other people, people from
(34:47):
different walks, uh, different socioeconomic backgrounds, different races, um genders.
And you know when we say it often in in
therapy that when you get into a group like that
and you start talking about your problems, you realize your
(35:09):
problems aren't you know, you wouldn't trade with these other
people your problems. You know, everybody's got a lot of ship,
and you start listening to other people's stuff and you
realize that your problems are maybe aren't as as great
as you thought. Um. So it gives you a healthy
dose of perspective because you realize, really and truly you
(35:31):
see people breaking down and crying and their most vulnerable
and worse time around no family members, blabbing to complete strangers.
And there's something very powerful about that if you're you
know again, I went to rehab three times. In the
first two times, I didn't really pay attention. The last
(35:52):
time I did, and I'm so thankful for it. Do
you think going forward? I mean, it sounds like you
have a passion for this sort of you of of
conversation of issues and of dealing with issues and getting
people to tell their stories, right this is is this
something that you think you will always want to do
going forward? Or is this just this charges episodes? Um? No,
(36:15):
you know, I think I think the response has been
so so positive that there's obviously a a bit of
a niche for it. I think, um, people want to
hear these stories, and you know, if I weren't doing them,
I think I would you know, if somebody told me
(36:36):
about a pod like that, I'd be like, Okay, I'm
gonna check that one out. And I think the other
thing for me that kind of makes me want to continue,
uh doing it is that almost every episode, well every episode,
we'll get into the the questions and at some point
I forget we're even doing a podcast. I forget and
(36:59):
get So we have two or three times today you
just get engrossed in the conversation and you kind of
forget everything else and everyone else. Um and in this
short attention span world, you know, forty five minutes or
an hour's about as much as anybody can can hang on.
I'm just I'm happy that our guys have done such
a fantastic job producing this this show and kind of
(37:22):
bringing it to life. Um so, what has been the
feedback from this? Has there been moments, letters, messages, dm
s that are just kind of blew your mind. I
get about a year ago I opened up my direct
Messages on Twitter where anybody can send messages, and um,
you know, I there's no way to go through all
(37:42):
of them, but every day, every day, and if you
just look at the comments on Twitter when we post
the episodes, but every day, uh, direct messages from just
people who well they don't even know if I'm going
to see their messages to begin in with, right, they
don't know if I'm gonna look at them. And people
just open up their hearts and they're like my brother,
(38:05):
you know, he went to service a few years ago,
came back, big drug problem, my dad, my mom. So
there's definitely something there where it's touching some kind of
a piece of these people when they listen to the
pod that prompts them to want to express uh you
know how they felt listening to it and that's really
cool since we're near Christmas. Um, I always think about
(38:33):
this the movie It's a wonderful life, right, and going
back in time and gain perspective, right, which is a
big sort of theme. We've been discussing about it here
as is perspective, and um, so I'm gonna put you,
uh back in time as it goes to yourself. We're
gonna go to uh somewhat dark face going to the
(38:54):
jail cell with that naked dude who was jacking off. Yeah,
I mean that changed sensitivid picture for me. I don't
think I'll ever forget that story. Yeah. Yeah, And you
know you're seeing yourself in the mirror and then and
now you're there. What would you tell that Rex at
(39:14):
that moment? Or would you just let him go? You know,
obviously you never forget it. But I was so confused
as to what was happening. I think I kind of
knew why why I was in there, but nobody was
telling me at this point. And I was just really
(39:36):
really confused, and also had and made a phone call.
And you can imagine two taking a lot of pain
medicine and I, you know, you used to know all
your friends phone numbers. I don't know any phone numbers now,
they're just under a name in my phone. And so
(39:57):
one of the officers said, uh, you know you can
make a call. I said, I don't know any phone numbers.
So you brought my phone, said find the number. As
soon as I turned my phone on, it was just
blowing up because I guess you know, news had reported
that I had been arrested. But I only saw one
message just pop right up and as my best friend
(40:19):
Josh Hopkins, and he said, I don't know what happened,
just know that I love you and it's gonna be okay.
And I had so many of those. I don't know
that I could. I don't know what I would tell
myself in that cell other than just stay the course,
(40:39):
because you know, I had people. I had people from
that day forward telling me, hey, Rex, just relax, a
year from now, your life is going to be so good. Well,
all those people fucking lied to me. It took longer
(40:59):
than a year. Then it would be the next year.
You know, I'm still in legal problems. You know, it
seems like two steps forward, one step back. Um, even
a year later, it's still sucked, but slowly but surely
things started getting better. And it probably took a good
(41:20):
five years before I could have ever said, you know
that I felt like things were starting to kind of,
you know, go in the right direction. I'm not the
most patient person in the world. And those five years
three two, three four or five years of really you know,
building back and trying to re established myself in some
(41:41):
kind of career. Um, it was hard as ship at first.
And it's still you know, Um, it's all good, it's
all good stuff, but even good stuff is stressful. And
so you know, there's more on my plate and I
gotta stay more diligent about doing things that I have
(42:01):
to do for my mental health every day. If I
don't do those things, I could just you know, fall
right off. So, UM, I'm just I'm grateful. I'm grateful
to still be here and be able to you know,
be doing something with this that's kind of making a
positive impact, that's making a super positive thing. In fact,
it's it's a huge if fact this is I'm just
(42:23):
I'm so proud to be a part of this series
and and you know that talk to you on this
last episode. Um, thanks, bro, here's a big question. You
may not have the answer yet, But where do you
want to take this show next and what are your
hopes and dreams for it? Well, you know, as powerful
as the some of the pods have been doing them
(42:47):
in this format, you know, really on the computer. Um,
I think it's been fantastic. I think when Steve and
Ezra and Brandon, those guys set out, I think we
all kind of uh pictured it being an in person
kind of thing. And my feeling on that is that
(43:12):
it's sort of tailor made for for TV or streaming.
And you know, I'm just thinking back about, you know,
a handful of that we did this year. If we
were able to sit in the studio with the guys
one on one, with the people one on one, I
think that you're liable to get even more, even more stuff,
(43:32):
even more honesty and um so you know, who knows
where it'll go. But I wouldn't mind trying that as
you will, as you should. Man, I'm excited to keep
telling these stories and doing so in a way that
reaches as many people as possible. It seems every week
there's a new scandal with an athlete at the center
(43:54):
of it, and there's not a lot of nuance when
it just explodes on Twitter or in the media. So
I'm hoping this will be a forum where we can
give space to talk about these issues openly and honestly
and really really learn from what people have gone through.
All Right, that's a rap FV. That's a wrap on
Season one of Charges. I want to thank all of
(44:14):
our guests for bravely sharing their stories with me and
you and our listeners. I want to thank our production
crew DV Podcast Jordans, Miles, Ben and Scott. I also
want to thank the team at port Lay and I
Heart Radio, and I want to thank Control Media and
my former teammate and my buddy Stevie Nash. This has
been one hell of a ride and it feels like
(44:37):
we're just getting started. Charges Severing no run NaNs with
the Law charges, Lee send the tennis and balls and charges.
The celebrity gankums charges we came along with from Living Law.
That's charges Seveing, no run NaNs with the Law charges,
Lee send the tennis and balls and charges the celebrity
gank bums charge we came along with from Living Lawless Charge.
(45:00):
Charges as created by Portalay and Control Media, is produced
by DV podcasts in association with I heart Radio. For
more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit i heart radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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