All Episodes

September 25, 2024 31 mins

In 1999, two Florida fishermen found a cherub of a boy named Elián González in the sea on Thanksgiving. The boy had floated alone for days. His mother managed to save her son’s life by strapping him to an inner tube before she drowned. Elián's father in Cuba desperately tried to get his son back.

Our host, investigative journalist Peniley Ramírez, was also separated from her family by the Florida Straits. When Peni was 11 years old her dad told her a dangerous secret before he left on an official trip on behalf of the Cuban government — he would not be returning.

Relating to Elián in many ways, Peniley seeks to unearth his story with the clarity of history, nearly a quarter century later. Looking beyond the mythology around Elián saga, from the miracle rescue to dolphins, Peni uncovers a more layered story, even dark at times. This season on Chess Piece, we tell you the Elián story unlike you've heard before.

 

This season's cover art by Ranfis Suárez Ramos.

Thanks to These Archival Sources:

Lynn and Louis Wolfson II Florida Moving Image Archives

Original Material Appeared In:

AP Archive

Belly of The Beast

Cuba CBS Early Show

CBS Evening News

CNN

CNN's "Elián: The Remarkable Story of A Cuban Boy's Journey to America"

C-SPAN

Cubavisión

Good Morning America

ITN Archive

Univision

7 News At 5pm

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Mark as Played
Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
The water changes from a beautiful shade of teal to
sapphire blue. When there's a storm, it looks almost black.
It is a narrow strip of water, the space between
two landmasks, a place with dolphins and sharks and early

(00:34):
seven hundred species of marine life, more than any other
place in the Atlantic Ocean. It's a life giving place,
but it's also volatile, erratic taking life, and this stretch
of sea has often been deadly for people trying to
get from one side to the other. From Cuba, where

(00:57):
I was born, to Florida, where much my family now leaves.
The water in between these two places halts memories of
countless storms. I'm going to tell you about one of
these storms, a storm from twenty five years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
That morning, the seas were really rough, eight to twelve
foot swells, and the sky, i remember, was black to
one side, and daylight was coming up, and there was
like a rainbow out there.

Speaker 3 (01:41):
This is the natal about Rinple.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
He's been in Florida for years, a storm doesn't face him.
So on Thanksgiving nineteen ninety nine, he went to his
cousin Sam's house to go fishing.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
Only for him to tell me that we weren't going
to go fishing because the Marine advisory was saying that
it was too rough to be out on the ocean
that day.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
But Donato and his cousin braave the aftermath of the
storm anyways, and then they see something in the water,
and we.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Ran across an inner tube and that's where it began
for me. We found a little boy floating about three
miles off the coast of Fort Lauderdale.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
That little boy was five year old Alean Gonzalez. He
had been floating in the ocean for at least a day,
maybe two. The legend is that he was protected by
dolphins in the dark, dangerous storm waters.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
It looked like a little angel.

Speaker 4 (02:45):
I mean, it looks so fresh.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
An angel of a boy saved by dolphins. What an image,
what a story. Little did they not to know this
strong storm in the ocean will actually bring more, more
forceful storms, a political and legal storm.

Speaker 5 (03:04):
He was cut in the crossfire between two governments, and
not just him, All Cubans are caught in that cross fire.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
The law is very clear.

Speaker 6 (03:13):
An abandoned child belongs with his father in particle prove.

Speaker 4 (03:24):
The equat.

Speaker 7 (03:30):
It was a very close pivotal controversial election year, and
we all remember what happened, right George W. Bush defeated
Al Gore and what state was the deciding state of Florida?

Speaker 3 (03:43):
A media storm.

Speaker 7 (03:45):
Tensions between the United States and Cuba get hotter every
day six year old Cuban refugee Ilian Gonzales remains in
this country.

Speaker 8 (03:52):
It was impossible to not be aware that something big
was happening in association with Elian Gonzalez.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
In three minutes, six year old Ellly Young Gunzas, dressed
in a T shirt, draped in fear.

Speaker 4 (04:05):
Was gone.

Speaker 9 (04:08):
It was before Lean and after Alian. It definitely marked
a line in the story in the history of the
Cuban exile in the United States, especially in Miami.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
And a storm within a family. I feel that he
deserves to be here.

Speaker 7 (04:24):
That's what his mom wanted it.

Speaker 3 (04:26):
His mom is first to me.

Speaker 4 (04:31):
Family.

Speaker 10 (04:35):
We want him to be in a free country with
his father, not alone. We want his father to be
with him. Okay, we want his father to be with him,
but free.

Speaker 6 (04:47):
As we all know, when Alan came and found himself
lonely in this country, without no family, without his dad,
I was there and so was my family supporting that
why are we giving the opportunity at this point? So
speak for him.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
All of these storms will tear a family apart, several
entire communities. Some say the termine the fate of the
two thousand US presidential election. And in the eye of
these storms, this little boy, I'm pennilea miss and this

(05:29):
is chess peace. The Elian Gonzalez Story. This is a
production of Ututa Studios in partnership with Iheartsmichael Tura podcast Network.
Before I tell you more about these storms from twenty

(05:50):
five years ago, I want to introduce myself. I'm an
investigated reporter who built my career in Mexico City. We
put in on cartels and political corruption.

Speaker 11 (06:01):
Ses the Esta Pista and Grasnrado spegan Gala Manires.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
But now I want to tell you a story closer
to home. One that I relate to was a Cuban
as someone who, similar to Elian, was separated from my father.
I was raised in Cuba, but lived most of my
life in Mexico. A few years ago, I moved to
New York. You can hear my accent. I haven't been

(06:32):
here for long. I want to tell you a Lian's
story in a New way. As someone who was raised
in Cuba but whose family has been in Miami for decades,
I have experienced both of the very divided sides that
animated Alian's story, a story that has proven to be

(06:52):
one of the most difficult of my career. As the
sun rose on Fansgiving Day in nineteen ninety nine, Donato
and his cousin Sam were fishing for Mahi mahi seaweed
and the bree pepper dark ocean waters. They had fifties

(07:16):
music playing on the radio.

Speaker 2 (07:19):
I remember the stinker round bump, bump, bump, bump, bump,
tooty fruity.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
Sam told Donato the mahi mahi liked to hide in things.

Speaker 3 (07:29):
Donato was on the lookout.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
That's when something caught his eyes some twenty five yards away.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
I said, like over there by that inner tube, and
my cousin said, because you had gone over the inner tube.

Speaker 1 (07:43):
And as they got closer, Donato told Sam, there's.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
A dead person on this inner tube because he goes, no, no,
he goes, it's a sick joke that somebody would tie
a doll to this inner tube.

Speaker 1 (07:53):
His cousin brought it off, thinking someone was messing with them,
and then.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
I looked again, and I seen a hand move, and
I told my cousin, You're not gonna believe this. I said, yes,
that person I thought was dead must be alive because
the hand moved. My cousin knew I wouldn't joke like
that with him.

Speaker 4 (08:11):
He goes, hurry, Herry here.

Speaker 3 (08:13):
They put the boat in gear and raced to the
inner tube.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
Before I can blink my eye, my cousin was in
the water and he's screaming, it's a baby, it's a baby.
And I'm thinking myself, a baby.

Speaker 3 (08:25):
A frozen panic.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
The next thing he remembers is his cousin Sam pushing
up this little body from the ocean.

Speaker 2 (08:34):
What he said was a baby became a little five.

Speaker 3 (08:36):
Year old boy, Elian Gonzalez.

Speaker 12 (08:40):
Elian Gonzalezalez.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
When I got him into my arms and I asked him,
I said, oh, you okay, and he didn't answer me,
and I said, pabo suspanol, and he said, see.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
They gave the little boy some orange juice and a sweatshirt.
Donato saw he was scared.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
He made like a sour face, like he wanted to cry,
but he never cried.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
Donato is a religious man and considers himself a missionary.

Speaker 3 (09:17):
He was overcome with emotion.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
I just looked up towards heaven. I didn't realize at
that moment that this would become another mission for me.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
Eleian would become a mission for more than just Donato.
Eleian would become a cast on both sides of the
Florida Strates. When Donato and s rescued Alien from the boat,

(10:01):
they called Sam's then wife, Nola, and she called nine
one one. Soon the coast Guard was on its way.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
And the first thing I said to the coast Guard
while we were on there, I said, is this boy
going to be able to make it to land?

Speaker 1 (10:19):
The coast Guard took Elian to land. When they go
to the coast, an ambulance and the media were waiting
for Elian.

Speaker 3 (10:27):
See do you know this boy? Yeah, we found.

Speaker 7 (10:32):
You know, this beautiful little boy and his beautiful you know,
big eyes and smooth, smooth skin and a big bright smile.
It was like a miracle, right, a Thanksgiving miracle.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
That's policer prise winning Quean American historian Ada Fere. The
fact that he was found on Thanksgiving is one of
those details that make Elian's origin story in the US
almost sacred. Over and over we spoke with people who
tell us something like this, so.

Speaker 3 (11:05):
Most you know, like a biblical story. It was poetic ramifications.

Speaker 4 (11:13):
He represented something, he represented a miracle.

Speaker 3 (11:17):
And this became a symbol to them of the failure.

Speaker 8 (11:21):
Of the communist system and the hope of the capitalist system,
the American system.

Speaker 13 (11:27):
Thanksgiving is an American holiday, but it is a holiday
that people reflect.

Speaker 3 (11:33):
Eleon plays into that this is Cuban American.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
Former Congressman Jogarcia, we talked about the symbolism of Ileane
arriving in the US on one of the holidays most
meaningful to Cubans here.

Speaker 13 (11:47):
I don't know if you've ever had Cuban Thanksgiving, but
it transmograification occurs.

Speaker 4 (11:52):
Right.

Speaker 13 (11:52):
They take a dry piece of turkey meat and they
make it taste like pork.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
And yes, I have had this turkey transmuted into pork
many times. My family have lived in Miami for decades
and I have celebrated many Thanksgivings there.

Speaker 13 (12:09):
Somehow, just like you know, a priest turns water into wine,
Cubans take a turkey, which is inedible, they fill with
pork and meat ground beef inside. Then they cover the
turkey in bacon, and then they cook it with moho
and what comes out is a pork. It may be
a turkey, but it tastes like pork, right, and.

Speaker 3 (12:31):
It's delicious, And it's delicious.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
I could see the congressman getting emotional about Qan Thanksgiving,
and I get it. For Cubans in the US, this
holiday holds a greater significance. It's a profound celebration for us,
right with meaning, and.

Speaker 13 (12:50):
So many times when you are celebrating Thanksgiving, you are
thinking of those that can.

Speaker 1 (13:03):
It's easy to get lost in the symbolism of Elian's rescue,
the image of an angel faced voy surrounded by dolphins in.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
The dark seas, rescued.

Speaker 1 (13:14):
On Thanksgiving of all days. But behind these idealistic symbols
there was a heroine journey. Cuban journalist Harold Calinas.

Speaker 5 (13:24):
I think it's easy to forget that these childhood events
are a trauma for Alien, and people often talk to
him in Cuba like this is just a political event,
But for him, this is the death of his mother.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
Elean, like me, grew up in Cuba between the worst parents.
His name is actually a combination of his parents' first
names Elizabeth and Jamiel. It had been Elean's mother who
decided to raise that narrow strip.

Speaker 3 (13:58):
Of see to get to it in States.

Speaker 1 (14:04):
On the Sunday before Thanksgiving of nineteen ninety nine, she
took Elean, with her boyfriend, Rafa, and much of his
family to flee Cuba on Afflotia across the Florida Straits
to the United States. Elizabeth surely knew the risks. She
had dressed Elian in old orange, a colored fisherman had

(14:25):
told her would protect him against charts.

Speaker 7 (14:29):
They hit bad weather the boat had started taking on water.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
A giant wave flipped the boat over and left a
group of fourteen with only two inner tubes. One of
Raffa's brothers said he.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
Could see the shore, maybe we can swim there, but
they were nowhere near the shore.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
That's again Donato the rescue. From the beginning of the episode,
Alien's mother's boyfriend, Rafa, attempted to rescue his brother, who
had tried to swim.

Speaker 3 (14:59):
To sure but nobody returned.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
When Rafa's mother realized her sons had drowned, she let
go of her inner te Soon there were only four
people left, Elian and his mother Elizabeth and a young
couple Nevaldo Fernandez and Arian Orta. This couple was much
less in the media spotlight than Allan, but they also survived. Later,

(15:29):
Nvaldo would tell reporters Elizabeth's last words to.

Speaker 6 (15:33):
Him and would tell me, take care of you, take
care of.

Speaker 12 (15:39):
The board, trying to make it to land of free make.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
Sure that the child touches land in the United States.

Speaker 1 (15:51):
That night on the ocean, the inner tubes somehow were separated.
Years later, Eleann will say he was in and out
of sleep on the inner tube and at some point
he raised his head and he didn't see his mom
and daldoes abamay she lost her life to save mine.

(16:12):
Elizabeth drowned protecting Elian. Her body was never found, lost
forever in this stretch of sea. The last thing Elian
remembered was looking up and being alone in the middle
of the sea. From there, Eleian traveled some thirty five

(16:34):
miles north alone toward Donato, and his cousin found him
that Thanksgiving Day. Elean later told journalist Diane Sawyer that
he awoke at night on this journey alone in the
sea and saw dolphins protecting him.

Speaker 3 (16:52):
Wept some time drawing some waves a dolphin.

Speaker 4 (16:59):
Himself in an inner tube me.

Speaker 3 (17:04):
He said, I was sinking.

Speaker 1 (17:10):
After the rescue, the cost guard took Elan, Donato and
his cousin Sam to land and from there Elian was
wrapped up in a thick blanket by medics, where news
footage captured his dazed, scared look on his face.

Speaker 2 (17:26):
Where's he going out?

Speaker 1 (17:31):
As they loaded Alan on the stretcher into the ambulance,
Sam and Donato both patted him with care on his head.
They then follow Elian to the hospital.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
That's today that I met Lazaro's uncle Delphine, which was
the great uncle, and Mary Lacy's.

Speaker 1 (17:51):
This is the Gonzales family of Miami. Elian's paternal great
uncles Lasaro and the Finn, and his second cousin Mary Less.

Speaker 3 (18:01):
It's just a miracle.

Speaker 7 (18:04):
God wanted him here for freedom.

Speaker 3 (18:07):
Thanks here, and he's here.

Speaker 4 (18:09):
And he will get it.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
They knew Elian was coming because his father's family in
Cuba had called a few days before. Once they realized
Elean was taken by his mom, it would be the
first collect call of many during this saga. Puamillel eventually
sold his nineteen fifty six Nash ramble.

Speaker 3 (18:31):
To afford all these calls.

Speaker 1 (18:34):
The day after Thanksgiving, Elian was released from the hospital.
The former Immigration and Naturalization Service or I ins placed
Elian in temporary care with his relatives in Miami.

Speaker 4 (18:48):
Policies and protocols were executed, and at the time it
required that he be placed into the care and custody
of the closest and media r relatives, which he was.

Speaker 1 (19:01):
This is Jim Goldman, a former Ironist special agent who
worked the case.

Speaker 4 (19:07):
And that's sort of when it all began.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
The storm in the ocean had subsided, but the tempest
was just beginning. When Eleane was rescued at sea. I

(19:46):
was a pre teen in Lawanna. I was born there
in nineteen eighty seven, just a few years before the
fall of the Berlin Wall.

Speaker 4 (19:54):
The Iron curtain between East Germany and West Berlin has
come tumbling down.

Speaker 1 (19:59):
East Germany and and that meant a lot of changes
for my little island.

Speaker 9 (20:03):
The embargo is finally having the effect on cashrew that
has been intended all along.

Speaker 13 (20:09):
It's time to tighten the screws, not loose on the screws.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
What I remember most was how poor the country was
with the Soviet Union falling apart and the US embargo
in place, cub Us foreign trade suffered drastically. We lived
in a scarcity, with no public transportation, no access to gasoline,
and almost no food. Havana was full of people biking everywhere,

(20:39):
and to me, everyone looked tired and thin. We had
four hours of electricity and then four hours without when
the electricity came back guandol Via la Loose, I remember
the collective celebration.

Speaker 3 (20:55):
Bin Nola lu Forola lous.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
I remember the happiness, the screens and everyone turning on
their televisions to watch the Delenoela. I lived mostly with
my mother stepfather brother ann Auela Delia, in an apartment
in Lositios, a Barrio Ravo, a dangerous neighborhood, but I

(21:18):
never felt unsafe. My mom was all about education and rules.
She was loving and straight. Some of my biggest life
lessons that I carry with me are from her. Every
two weeks I would visit my dad, my step mom,
and my little brother Juankey in the outstairs of Havana.

(21:39):
My dad would buy some seven miles or take an
old train to pick me up and drop me off
at my dad's. I felt more free He lived in
a tiny apartment inside a solar, the Cuban name for
places with rooms around apatio, sometimes with restrooms the whole
building shared.

Speaker 4 (22:04):
That's what he also Papa.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
This is my dad who always calls me money short
for Mineka.

Speaker 3 (22:12):
Do you guys look alike.

Speaker 4 (22:16):
See me Money.

Speaker 1 (22:19):
We're super close and trust each other with anything.

Speaker 12 (22:24):
The time you need a secretis.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
A year before Elean was rescued. My father told me
a secret one, but I couldn't tell a soul. My
dad was a coach for Cuba's national diving team. In
nineteen ninety eight, he was headed to South Florida for
an international diving competition.

Speaker 3 (22:49):
Before he left, he told me, he.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
Said, money in Noway Reserve. He wouldn't be coming back
to Cuba, and I will be staying in Cuba.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
It was a dangerous secret.

Speaker 1 (23:09):
If I told my father could get in trouble with
the government. He could be prevented from traveling or even
go to jail. And it's something nearly three decades later
that my dad and I have never really talked about
until now, until I started digging into my memories of

(23:30):
Cuba during my reporting for this podcast.

Speaker 12 (23:37):
Rago Avenia a Dando migaison.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
Leaving Cuba was something that had been weighing on him.
He wanted to find a life with more food and
more freedom.

Speaker 12 (23:53):
In Josavaka Dimpo and padan moment when he decided to leave,
he had no idea when we will be able to
see each other again. I go the ako to talk again.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
But my father wanted me to know the truth. So
my father went to Florida and never came back. He
found a job at a public pool, teaching kids how
to swim. Most of them were second generation immigrants from

(24:30):
Latin America. Recently I spoke with some of the swimmers
he coaches.

Speaker 6 (24:36):
He was my coach, a father figure, a grandpa, someone
you can ask advice for.

Speaker 3 (24:46):
His everything, He's my everything.

Speaker 1 (24:50):
It makes me emotional hearing his students calling him family.
They got to be with my dad for so many years.

Speaker 3 (24:58):
Something that was taken from me.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
In nineteen ninety eight, when my dad didn't return to Cuba,
he was marked as a traitor by the Cuban government
and my family paid the consequences.

Speaker 12 (25:18):
Okay, can you parad kua no so in the sector
Yoso jun trailer.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
We were forbidden from leaving Cuba or seeing my dad
for at least three years. He lost all parents, our rights.

Speaker 12 (25:36):
Oh say you feel direction.

Speaker 4 (25:41):
And superdo.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
To be Cuban like Elyan and me means that governments
and their policies dictate if you can grow up with
your parents. More often than not, the policies separate us
as short now eighty mile stretch of ocean apart.

Speaker 10 (26:07):
Taking our shoes off to get onto the sand in
the hot no, I feel I'm burning. Oh Jesus, Oh
I can't do it. Oh my Okay, we're putting our
shoes back.

Speaker 1 (26:26):
While reputting in Florida producer Tashas and Dovala and I
tried to take a peaceful break at the beach, but
the sun is too hot even in May.

Speaker 11 (26:36):
So right now we're standing in a beautiful white sand
beach and next to four dollars though, And we're just
a few steps from the station of the US Coast
Guard here in this place, and this is a station
where Elean Gonzalez was taken after he was found three
miles from here in the middle of the ocean.

Speaker 1 (26:59):
It's a bit disorienting because the trees and land here
resemble the beaches.

Speaker 3 (27:05):
I remember as a kid in.

Speaker 11 (27:07):
Cuba, you can hear the airplanes from here because the
airport it's so close. So it's this paradox of it
could be so easy to get here, but it's so
dangerous and so difficult.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
I look at the water today, is pristine, crystalline, calm.
It makes me think of the beauty so many people
describing Alian's rescue, the dolphins protecting this angelic boy on
Thanksgiving Day. It's a poetic visual, but the Lian's story,

(27:46):
just like the ocean, is darker than its glowing surface.
We cannot know for certain that there were dolphins that
protected a lan and maybe his face looked like an
angel to his rescures, but really Eleian was terrified and
to Miami Cubans, the fact that Elean was found on
Thanksgiving was a sign of hope, of the possibility of freedom.

(28:10):
But Thanksgiving meant nothing to Alian. That day was not
a holiday for him. That was the day when he
was alone at sea after losing his mother. So for
this podcast, I'm not interested in the myth. I want
the real story because underneath all the yeleg and lore,

(28:33):
there is something messier.

Speaker 4 (28:35):
Every day things got worse and worse and worseh it
got darker and deeper.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
What work comes to your mind when I say the
word alien elia, convasive pain.

Speaker 7 (28:47):
No matter what the outcome would have been, it's just pain.

Speaker 9 (28:51):
Was a triumph, I guess for his father, but for
hundreds of thousands of Cubans in Miami was a tragedy.

Speaker 4 (28:58):
I would have to say some misgivings. The word circus
comes to mind.

Speaker 7 (29:03):
I think puppet, I think dictatorship. I think the need
for truth to surface myth.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
It was hard to know what actually was true eventually
in the end.

Speaker 8 (29:18):
And ely On he was kind of the passive voice
in this. You know, nobody could ask him what it
means to be free?

Speaker 1 (29:28):
And ngo and momentum contra momental my bad.

Speaker 3 (29:35):
This is Chess Piece, the real Elian Gonzalez story. Chess Piece.

Speaker 1 (29:59):
The Story is a production of Tudo Studios in partnership
with Iheartsmichael Tura Podcast Network. This show is written and
reported by me Pennileea Medz with Maria Garcia, Nicole Rodwell,
and Tasha Sandoval. Our editor is Maria Garcia, Additional editing
by Marlon Bishop. Our senior producer is Nicole Rodwell. Our

(30:22):
associate producers are Tasha Sandovali and Elisabeth Loental Torres. Sound
besigned by Jacob Rossatti and our intern is Evelyn Fajardo Alvarez.
Our senior production manager is Jessica Elis, with production supports
from Nancy Trujillo and Francis pun.

Speaker 3 (30:41):
Mixing by Stephanie.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
Levo, Julia Caruso and j J Carubin, fat checking by
Media Bautista, Scoring and musical creation by Jacob Rossati and
Stephanie Lebo and credits music from Los Aceos Or. Executive
producers are Marlon Bishop and my Ya Garcia. Legal review
by Neil Rossini. This episode was recorded in part at

(31:06):
Dynamica Studio in Mexico City. Utura Media was founded by
Maria Novosa. For more podcasts, listen to the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows
A penileeter MITEZ see you in the next episode.

Speaker 3 (31:24):
Novemo Henes and episode
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Peniley Ramírez

Peniley Ramírez

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