October 25, 2021 • 47 mins
Introducing Conversations with Olivia Jade. The beginning:
Olivia sits with Dr. Hillary Goldsher, psychologist, for a conversation about the past, letting go, and moving forward.
Olivia let’s you in about her own fears and insecurities and facing them openly and honestly.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Conversations with Olivia Jade and I heart radio podcast.
Hi everybody, welcome to my podcast Conversations. I am so
(00:23):
excited to have this platform, and I honestly couldn't think
of a better first episode than having an amazing therapist
on Dr Goldcher. Therapy has helped me so much in
so many different ways, and I just wanna have this
platform and this opportunity to maybe help somebody else who
(00:44):
doesn't have access to a therapist or could really just
use some advice. And we tried to keep this pretty general.
I'm really really honored to have her on the podcast,
and I hope you guys enjoy. So let's just dive
right into it. Hi, Dr Goldcher, Hi Olivia, how are you.
I'm good. It's so nice to meet you, So nice
(01:05):
to meet you. Thank you so much for coming on. Well,
thank you for being brave. This is not easy, and
so I think it's it's really an amazing milestone in
your healing process that you're here in this context willing
to have this really vulnerable conversation. So thank you. Yeah,
(01:28):
I think I definitely want to open up today. I
want to hear, I want to learn a little bit
too about certain things. And obviously I've done a little
bit of research on you before coming on here today,
and um, I think a starting point that is something
that means a lot to me. And I don't want
to I'm like nervous to talk about this in general,
just because I feel like I've just gone through it
(01:50):
personally myself. So it is a weird thing to talk about,
and I don't want to upset anybody when I'm talking
about it or um, but I know you talk about
a lot of you know, the idea behind cancel culture
and how it has certain mental health effects on somebody,
and it's something I'm super fascinated by. Yeah, And so
(02:10):
first of all, maybe you could just tell the listeners
a little bit about what you do, who you are,
and then we can kind of jump into that conversation.
That sounds great. Well, I'm Dr Hillary Culture. I'm a
licensed clinical psychologist and pre COVID. I operated out of
my office in Beverly Hills, but now I'm in my
(02:31):
virtual office out of my home, and I specialized in
trauma and anxiety and depression and also work with parents
and kiddos quite a bit as well. I do some
work on Instagram to kind of um put forth some
of my ideas and do a lot of media work
(02:51):
as well, CNN Box podcasts like this one. Um, and
it's it's really my pleasure to be with you today.
So that's a little quick summary. Um okay, Well, I think, yeah,
let's just jump right into it. In general, I think
that I kind of want to just talk about just
to start, like, obviously, right now, I think, especially with
(03:14):
my generation, cancel culture and the bandwagon effect and the
mob mentality of it is really prevalent, and it's so big,
and I think it's so much bigger than I'm not
even just talking about like any of my own personal situations,
but just in general through kids over zoom in school,
like being canceled from a classmate behind a screen, And
(03:36):
I think it's obviously just a huge thing right now,
and it's something I'm really passionate about because I know,
you know in the past how it's affected my mental health.
But I think a lot of people don't realize the
effects it actually has. And I want to hear more
of like a professional and like a scientific kind of
explanation of that if you're willing to, just so people
(03:57):
can understand a little bit more, of course, yes. And
you know, the notion of cancel culture evolved in a
really intense set of environmental and cultural circumstances right kind
of on the heels of the Me Too movement and
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all of the black life matters issues and a lot
of political important issues that came up, and people wanted
to hold other people accountable. This is not in and
of itself a bad thing, the idea that we hold
up issues that don't serve ourselves as individuals, that don't
serve our society, and we call it out and we
say we want change. Right. It sort of began as
(04:40):
a wave of really accountability, but it has evolved into
cancel culture, which, as most of the listeners know, is
that some version of really deleting someone from their personal
and professional stature in the community and um in social media,
etcetera after a series of or particular mistake. And when
(05:03):
you ask the question, what happens to a person that's
at the center of cancel culture, it's such a critical issue.
It's so important to look at the other side because
while we can hold a space for holding someone accountable,
we also have to hold a space for looking at
what happens to that person on the other side, And
the answer is it is a traumatic event. It is
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an absolutely traumatic event that can lead to depression, anxiety,
and sort of a complete disorientation of the self. Right.
One identifies themselves through certain relationships, through certain markers in
their lives, and they see themselves through their own eyes
and how others see them as well, and when those
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things collapse or are eliminated or are disallowed, it's super disorienting.
And so I've said this before and other contexts, but
my issue from clinical standpoint and from sort of a
human being standpoint with cancel culture is that it forecloses
the most important thing about the issues that are being raised,
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which is an opportunity for learning, for education, and for
the public at large to witness someone in that process,
which is invaluable. And so when we have someone like
you and others that is standing in an error, standing
and a mistake, is standing in an event which with
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which they have regret or which they could change, and
we foreclose the opportunity for that dialogue to occur, so
much is lost, an opportunity for growth, and so much
as lost for that person at the center of it. Yeah,
and I feel like I'm so or just personally, I'm
so hesitant to talk about this, and I think it's
(06:51):
like I'm so hesitant to talk about it because of
the trauma that you're kind of talking about it, like
oh gosh, if I say this or if it comes
off like kind of the wrong way, am I going
to get canceled again? Or is this going to be
a thing? And it really does leave such an impression
in one's mind, you know, like really I and I again,
I get so nervous. I feel like I walk on
eggshells when I talk, just because I don't want to
(07:13):
say the wrong thing, and I want to make it
clear to people listening that like I'm not trying to
victimize myself, but I also I'm trying just from being
and having this personal experience, Like I really do understand
like how different of a person I've become because of it,
and not entirely in a good way. Sometimes, like I
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really do feel like I have way harder days or
I'm way harder on myself, and I'm so scared of
like looking at my name and something bad is happening
and I'm the face of it, and it's gonna be
like this big thing that blows up in my face again.
And it's like it's so interesting to me because I
feel like people who have experienced it, even if it's
in a different capacity, like you just you live your
(07:55):
life a little bit a little bit differently in my opinion,
and you just kind of shut down and you don't
you almost start to you like kind of start to
believe what people are telling you, like you don't deserve
a second chance, and like there is no room for growth,
and you feel like not to sound super dark, but
it's like just what how do you bounce back then?
(08:17):
Because I want to be alive. I still want to
grow up. I want to you know. But then you
have people saying like, well, you don't deserve to and
you should go hide forever, and it's almost just like,
in kind of a dark way, it's just like don't
exist anymore basically, which obviously is really hard to hear,
especially when you're the person being told that. You know, yeah,
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there's that message of literal annihilation which is really dark
and really lonely and scary, and I want to help
you in this moment create a paradigm goes for you
individually and maybe for the listeners, which is the idea
that things can co exist. Feelings can co exist, steps
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can coexist, they can live side by side. And how
this applies to what we're talking about is the idea
that two things can be true at the same time.
You can both have deep regret about what transpired. You
can have um a wish to imagine too, the opportunity
to do it differently. And at the same time you
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can also have the capacity and the ability and the
fantasy and the hope to change and grow and to
use your life to do good in the world and
to help teach others. These things can be true at
the same time, and I think for you personally, it's
one of the things that over time that will probably
help ground you that you're going to, in my view,
(09:43):
have to lean into because ultimately, at the end of
the day, you're going to have to decide how to
move forward with all of these things true at the
same time. Right there, there maybe folks who decide they
don't forgive you, or decide that to see you thrive,
um uh, sort of as in violation of the sanctity
(10:04):
of the errors that you made. Right, But there are
also going to be a lot of folks who are
cheering for you, and ultimately you have to decide what
you want to make of this. And so I think
for you as you speak about it, as you think
about it, both publicly and personally, holding those truth for yourself,
that these things are true at the same time, right,
And and that in part is in my view, what
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gives you the the right, the courage, the ability to
move forward. You can both have regret and understanding and
at the same time want something for yourself. Yeah, and
just obviously I'm just speaking a little bit about this
and like my personal life, just because I do feel
like I understand it to a certain degree, but obviously
it's so much bigger than just me, and I'd way
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rather talk about other people, like not in maybe the
public eye, but that are dealing with the same sense
of bullying and mold mentality. And as a therapist, obviously
like some advice you could give to them and how
to get through that and how you get through to
the other side, and when you are having a really
bad day, if you have any tips, because I know
a lot of my viewers on YouTube there constantly in
(11:09):
my messages, just like how are you getting through this
rough day? Or and I just feel like, as much
as I'd love to give advice, I'm not licensed nor professional,
and so um I think would be really helpful for
some people to hear it from you. Yeah, yeah, I
think one of the most important things. And maybe this
seems paradoxical to getting through, but in fact it's really
(11:32):
a requirement is to validate the feelings deeply acknowledge them
to yourself and if you have safe others to talk about, right,
is to validate and acknowledge how difficult it is, how
painful it is, how traumatic it is, how big it
is to be canceled, to feel bullied, to feel um separated,
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to feel excluded. Right, that is, that is a huge
trauma for anyone at a public macro level, like you've
dealt with or someone as you're talking about that's in
their fifth grade classroom and have you left out of
a birthday party? Right? The loneness that comes with that,
the trauma, the anxiety, the fear about what this means
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for the future is devastating. And so just to acknowledge
that those feelings that are coming up in the face
of that are normal, are expected, are appropriate, I think
is really important because we can feel like, oh, we
want to make those feelings go away, or we shouldn't
talk about them, or something's wrong with us that we're
feeling so broken. In the face of it, those kind
of feelings are normal. It's sort of a primitive edict
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for us to feel connected and included, and when that
doesn't happen, it's devastating. It's really really hard. So the
first step is kind of acknowledging, validating, and the second
step is being able to create a narrative inside of yourself,
which is a really really tall order of what we're
feeling traumatized right and we're feeling separate and excluded, but
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we have to decide who we're going to be in
the face of these kind of challenges. Is how we're
going to view ourselves, what we're going to say to ourselves,
what we're gonna say to ourselves about what's happening, and
so being able to lean into what you know about yourself,
how you move through the world, the connections you have
with your friends, with your family, the kindness that you
show others who you are deeply inside, being able to
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hold onto that narrative because in the end, it's really
us um that carries the strongest messages about ourselves. Right,
It's that voice that we have inside of ourselves that
informs how we move through the day. So being able
to be extent possible to mobilize what we know about
ourselves and keep interrupting that self talk even though those
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messages are coming in, even though they're devastating, even though
they're painful, to keep replacing them with the truth that
you know about yourself. And I want to pause and
acknowledge that this is the hardest thing ever. I mean,
this is this is like kids, teenagers, young adults, grown ups,
and um senior citizens. We work on this our our
whole lives. Being able to not live in the projections
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of others, being able to use our own voice to
replace the ideas of notions and the judgment of others.
It's really, really, really, really hard, But it's a muscle
that we have to build. And then we want to
get into a bunch of self care as we go
through this like tremendously difficult journey. Right, And so the
things that make you feel good, whether it's meditation or
music or taking a bath or connecting with a loved
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one reading a book. It's critical to kind of facilitate
opportunities to calm our body as we do this deep work.
And I call it deep work because standing up in
the face of negative voices is is one of the
hardest things to do in the whole world. And so
I don't have advice that makes it go away, but
I have guidance to help build that part inside of
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yourself that says like I'm I'm I'm good enough. I
deserve to to to be here. I deserve to live
a life even if I don't have the approving eyes
and words of others. I'm enough. Yeah. And I think
also with with social media and how obviously it's just
at its peak and everybody's on social media from twelve
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to thirteen year olds, and I feel like that's amplified
cancel culture in itself. And I guess I'm just trying
to ask on top of that, maybe like what advice
could you give, because that the last thing you said,
I think is super helpful um for a lot of people.
But with social media, with I feel like so many
young women and men comparing themselves and feeling like, you know,
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they're not worthy of this or this person's life looks
so perfect on this platform and then you get really
down on yourself. And although it's not really having to
do with cancel culture, I do think it's like another
little form of maybe trauma is not the right word,
but just like, I don't know, you could probably phrase
this way more eloquently than I am, but am I
(15:53):
kind of making sense that you're understanding what I'm saying,
Just like, how how to help younger kids through that
and looking at social media and comparing themselves and feeling
so down on themselves that it does create a different
level of depression, And um, yeah, I guess that's kind
of what my main point is. Your your point is
a critical one and should be an ongoing discussion that
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we have as parents, as caregivers of children, as teachers,
and amongst our our our kids and young adults. The
dynamic you're talking about is devastating for young people, right
This whole to compare um, what your own life feels
like relative to what other people's lives look like, and
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the very nature of social media. We can have a
whole other discussion about this is designed to do just that.
There's sort of an addictive quality that it pulls for
right and and we all are susceptible, regardless of your
age or station in life. So I have a few
few thoughts. One is pretty practical and perhaps obvious, but
I think social media breaks are critical. And if our
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parents listening out there to really take the temperature of
your teens and your young adults that you're still connected
with or live in your house, and employ social media
breaks to interrupt this addictive poll to compare, and you
lift um our sense of self outside of that tunnel
and um more outside into the world in terms of
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how we move through it and what we do. Um.
It's a more practical piece of advice, but um, the
dynamic that kids face is really complex, and so you
have to continue to build a narrative about yourself right
and before Actually, I want to step back and say
this as a as a psychologist, and I work with
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folks in the public eye, and I work with folks
not in the public eye. And the notion of social
media and this comparison culture comes up all the time.
Um for folks that are celebrities and have a lot
of power and famous, and for folks who sort of
live a non public life. It is you big? It is.
It is across the board, And so no matter how
many followers you have, UM, what your body looks like,
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what your clothes look like, what relationships are in and
how many friends you have, etcetera. Everyone everyone, And I
can underscore this looks like a yellow highlighter and it
feels the same. And I know it's hard to believe if, um,
you're looking at this hierarchy and see celebrity, and UM,
folks that look a certain way or project a certain image,
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they have to be at the top of the untill
health hierarchy. Right, That's the thought that consumers of social
media think. But I'm here to tell you that that
is not true. Everyone has the same feelings of insecurity,
the same fears of not being accepted, the same concerns
about their acceptability internally externally. It is the same across
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the board. I see it all of the time, and
so I guess i'd start there that you are not alone.
Everyone feels these feelings, and it's why it's so critical
to interrupt your consumption so that you get some relief.
And then, as I was talking about before, we sort
of hit this before, but maintaining that narrative about what
is actually important to you, what actually resonates in your life,
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what actually moves you, What are you here to do?
What services are you here to provide to those in
your life? Right, those are the things that help ground
us over time and so beginning, and you know, if
you're in fifth grade, that might be might be lofty questions,
but then the lean of the idea of like who
am I? What makes me me? That's the most important.
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You know, how do I relate to my friends? One?
Are the things that I like to do? What are
the things that I like about myself? It's really critical
to keep that kind of dynamic dialogue going internally to
combat these messages that are coming in. And I wish
I had a a perfect response to this enormous dilemma
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because it absolutely contributes to anxiety and depression in our
young kids and and and adults as well. And so
we have to get really active in the face of it.
We have to get really active about the voices inside
our mind and interrupting how we talk to ourselves. Yeah,
and it's feeling like this thing is kind of inevitable
and it's social media is here to stay. And that's
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how it feels like. So I think that's great advice.
It's really trying to dig deep within yourself to find
a way to get through it, because it doesn't seem
like right now at this rate, it's you know, really
going anywhere, and a conversation I feel like I have
so often with and I'm just curious on your opinion
of it. But I talked about this with my sister
a lot, just because I think I was probably one
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of the last like age groups to not grow up
with social media and Instagram I think was created when
I was a teenager, so I didn't have that like
you know, when I was younger, I was playing with
dolls and I wasn't comparing myself and I at a
young age, you're not looking at magazine covers and models.
And now these kids are looking at basically magazine covers
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on their own Instagrams with photos that have been touched,
and it's just a completely different game for these kids now.
And I think that something we talked about a lot
is that is is it appropriate to say maybe social
media should have an age restriction and would that help
with mental health in a certain capacity? Yes, yes, yes,
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a million thousand times yes, it would be absolutely my
clinical professional preference that kids maybe wouldn't get on Instagram
and social media until sixteen. Yeah, because that's what I
remember obviously growing up. Now you have kids, like even
my friends little sisters, who are twelve and thirteen years old,
and they're looking at these eighteen year olds on social media,
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and I think it's creating a whole lot of problems
mentally because hey, you're almost seven years, eight years younger
than a lot of these people you're looking at, So
you're gonna get to that point eventually in your life.
You're gonna grow up, You're gonna be mature one day.
And it's like it's almost I feel like stripping your
youth a little bit because you're just you want to
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grow up so much faster. And there's a reason when
we were like my friends and I growing up, when
you'd watch TV and commercials, the commercials were really catered
towards children. And now, you know, with the access to
just see anything, I feel like you're just prone to
grow up so much more, I guess, just quickly. But
also I think it does have some you know, really
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hard effects on young girls and guys and mental health
for sure. Yeah, I mean it's it's shifting the paradigm
right under our noses, right that young girls, I think
in particular, are thinking about their physical appearance, are thinking
about their bodies, are thinking about their impact on others
in that regard at such a young age. Yeah, being
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able to interrupt all of the questions and insecurities and
fears and confusion that comes with those thoughts at that
age is sort of a crisis in our country right now.
And and less social media is somehow eliminated, it's really incumbent,
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as I was saying before, on professionals like myself and
parents and caregivers and teachers and mentors of kids to
interrupt the narrative that comes along with it. What's wrong
with me? I'm not good enough. I need to have
these things in order to be acceptable and to really
pare down a child's or young adult exposure to that
(23:29):
because you're You're right, notions and ideas and narratives about
themselves are getting in their way before that they would
are used to. Yeah. And it's like it's interesting too
because I sit here and I am so passionate about this,
Like I really do believe there needs to be an
age restriction, especially just seeing you know, like my younger
cousins or my friends, little sisters or little brothers and um.
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But I think also at the same time, it's so
hypocritical for me to sit here and say that, because
then I feel like I'm adding to the problem of being,
you know, in my twenties on a public platform, posting
all my best angles and not wanting to show the
hard moments. And so it's interesting too, It's like, how
can I be better? But at the same time, I'm
still human and I want to fit in and I
(24:14):
want people to think, oh, wow, she has her stuff
together and oh look at that, like she looks great
in that, because you want that validation. I think, you know,
there's like a little level of like narcissism that comes
with social media because you're just feeding off of people's
um just perception of you. Well, just you saying this
out loud right now is a very cool beginning to
(24:34):
that dialogue. Right. This is the very paradox of social
media and why this addictive quality to it is that
all of us can have the conversation about the damage
that it causes or the poll that it has on
any one of us to present our kind of best sides,
and yet most of us still are compelled to do
(24:57):
just that, right, Yeah, you don't want to show off
the bad at all, And like, even if you know
this could probably help somebody today, you're so in your
head and you're I feel like I can speak on
behalf of a lot of people that are also maybe
in the same like industry as me or whatever it
might be. But it's just like, you want to help
so many people. You don't want to give off this
fake idea that your life is perfect, but at the
(25:18):
same time, you're seeking validation from people you look up
to or you see somebody else on social media that's,
you know, so to speak, quote unquote a level higher,
and you want to get to that. And it's just like,
I don't know, it's a vicious cycle because for me personally,
I want to be able to like preach and help
those and be like, Okay, life isn't perfect. And if
you saw that, I had a thousand photos just taken
(25:41):
of me and two of them looked okay that are
on my Instagram now and the rest are totally not
what those ones represent at all. It's like, I don't know,
it's hard because I want to be helpful, but also
being a human, you want to be liked and you
want to feel beautiful and you want to be validated. Yeah,
(26:14):
what do you think your biggest fears are associated with
that possibility? You know that if you did present a
less curated version of yourself in in your social media world,
what are what are your biggest fears around that? I
think for me personally, I have such a hard time
being vulnerable and opening up in general, and I almost
(26:34):
just feel like maybe if I showed my genuine personality
and somebody didn't like that, it would hurt so much
more than somebody seeing this like surface level of me online,
because it's like, yeah, you can talk poorly about me
for that, but like, thank god I didn't really actually
put my all into that or really show who I
am at my core, because I'm so afraid people won't
(26:56):
like it, which, in turn, I feel like would hurts
so much more than somebody not liking this perfect version
of me, because I know that's not true. You know, Yes,
So it's sort of a protective shell and it's total
defense mechanism of just like okay, well, well what it
feels like is that there's only a certain level of
(27:16):
damage or hurt or pain that can be caused because
of these boundaries you have in place. But I would
offer this this possibility we can think about together, which
is that ultimately, um, there's some there's some internal damage
that that potentially takes place in this scenario. Right if
there's a part of you that has this poll to
(27:37):
like show up in a more authentic, messy, perfect way,
because perhaps that's part of your calling, that's part of
what you're meant to do here, right, Um, but you're
limited by these fears of being unaccepted. Um for who
you sort of truly are. There's kind of a gap
(28:00):
but what we call and there will be like a
cognitive dissidence between who you really are inside and sort
of what you're putting out there, and that can cause
a kind of anxiety that can cause a sort of
lack of groundedness or a little bit of disorientation. And
I would argue that although it's true, I think you're
(28:21):
absolutely right that if you put more authentic images, more
slices of yourself that are more vulnerable, more imperfect, and
they were rejected, that it would hurt in a different
way I think. I think that's right. It makes sense
to me. It's it's more vulnerable, it's more real, and
it feels like people are commenting on something that that
is straight from the heart. You know, that's part of
(28:41):
your soul, your spirit, but none Nonetheless, there's a way
in which then you still get to stand more fully
kind of in who you are, right And I think
that ultimately gives us a place of greater empowerment. When
there's less of a gap between we are inside and
how we move through the world, we are better poised
(29:01):
to stand um in the face of that kind of rejection. Right, Yeah,
I couldn't agree more. It's tough, easier said than done,
though you know doubt it's easier said than that than done.
It would be a huge emotional risk, yeah, that, and
(29:22):
it would require you maybe to um uh, maybe there's
a part of you that tends to exile that imperfect
parts of you, the messy parts of you, the chaotic
parts of you. Right, it would require you to bring
that a bit closer, and I think in the end
it would develop a much stronger sense of self. But
(29:45):
in the short run, is that you like getting comfortable
and just the idea of it, it would be really uncomfortable. Yeah,
And speaking of that sort of I feel like on
the topic of wanting people to like you and then
also wanting to show a different set of yourself, and
then I think there's also a part of it where
(30:06):
for anybody, I feel like, in any situation, big or small,
I just kind of want to hear your perspective on
self forgiveness and like not being so especially as you're
growing up and you're still so young. If we have
young listeners right now, like if you have a little
bit of guilt, and it can be on a big
scale or a really small scale, but how you just
(30:28):
come to and like not absolutely beat yourself up for
a mistake. I think would be helpful to hear about.
It's such an important ongoing life skill to adapt this
notion of accepting oneself as good enough, yeah, right, accepting
(30:53):
oneself as being a human being that will make mistakes,
have moments of weakness show up in ways that we
won't feel good about. That isn't just a young person's thing.
That's a human being thing, and we have to develop
a relationship with that truth over time in the name
(31:13):
of our mental health and in the name of being
able to continue to grow and to cultivate healthy relationships
with people that would love, with partners, with kids, etcetera.
So to kind of break that down, um starting with
that paradigm, the idea that like, we are all going
to make mistakes, We're all going to show up in
ways that we don't feel good about. Feelings like anger
(31:37):
or jealousy or frustration or sadness or ego which isn't
really a feeling the state of being right, are are
going to enter our lives and at times we're not
going to be able to get ahead of it, and
being able to recognize that that's part of the experience
of being human is a beginning. And the second part
(31:59):
I is being able to make amends. I think oftentimes
in the face of us showing up in ways that
we don't feel good about, we shut down, We suppressed,
we don't want to space right, we avoid, we deny,
we just mess who you're raising up your finger? Right?
And this isn't because we don't care. It's because we've
become so overwhelmed, we're sort of paralyzed with fear and
(32:21):
we can't act. And this happens across the board. I
see this with young people, and I see this with
folks who are you know, well into their seventies. Right.
It's a defense mechanism UM to not stand in the
damage that we've caused, to not stand um in in
the discomfort of recognizing parts of ourselves that we don't
feel good about. This, to me is the most critical
(32:41):
step is to sort of take the risk to stand
in it, you know, to take the risk to stand
in it first by ourselves, to really say out loud
to ourselves or a therapy situation to our best friend
with a trusted safe other, to being being able to
say this happened. I don't feel good about it. I
showed up in a way that I don't like. I
I I wish I had done it differently. I regret it.
(33:02):
And being able to just stand in that truth instead
of ignoring it dismissing it ross over is the first
step in healing. And then I was I was talking
about making amends, being able to go to the person
or the persons that were affected and saying I didn't
like what I said back there. I didn't feel good
about it. I shut up in a way that that
I don't like and I was angry, I was sad,
I was depressed, I was jealous, right, And it's not
(33:24):
an excuse what that's what happened. I'm gonna be working
on that and trying to and trying to do better
next time. And in a way it sounds simple, um,
but I think people would be surprised how often folks
don't do that, don't lean into what happened, and can't find,
um the words or the strength to say those things
(33:46):
out loud. It's not that it's not hard. It's so
so so hard, but we need to work really hard
to kind of interrupt those tendencies to just shut down. Yeah,
And I think for me it's like I relate to
that too, and different level of just being so hard
on myself and just speaking to myself in such a
negative way because of making a mistake so publicly. I
(34:11):
think it's hard growing up and just in general making
mistakes privately in the comfort of your own home with
your family and friends to get you through things. And
then I think when you mess up in the public
eye and you have millions of people and every day
there's an article coming out about you that says this
or this, isn't true, but now everybody believes it, and
is there even a point in trying to clear up
(34:32):
that rumor because people already hate me anyway, so like
why should I forgive myself? And it gets like, just
for speaking from experience, it's like really challenging to It's
just yeah, I think it's just really challenging for me
personally to let go of so much guilt. Yes, yes,
(34:52):
one of my favorite exercises. And I wonder how this
will resonate and and maybe less so for younger people.
But it is to think of about what you would
say to your your own daughter or to your little sister.
Right made a mistake and made it publicly. The message
that you would give wouldn't be some version of like
(35:12):
you need to you need to to stay in the
depth of that mistake. You need to feel bad for
as long as you can. You need to never forgive yourself.
And we wouldn't say that, We would say some persion
of like, it's okay, it's okay to to to to
show up in a way that you didn't feel good about.
It's okay that you didn't know then what you know now.
(35:33):
It's okay that you're a learning, growing, thinking, feeling, evolving
human being, and it's okay to carve out a path
to do better. We would say that to our little sister,
we would say that to our daughter. We have to
adopt that narrative for ourselves. It doesn't exclude us, it
must include us. And and there's no doubt, I mean,
I really wanted to to lean into what you were
(35:56):
talking about making a mistake in such a public fashion,
and I know you're a low to hold yourself up
as a victim or someone that's suffering. That isn't what
you've said at all, and I really want to highlight that.
But there is a certain grief, and we already use
the word trauma that comes with making a mistake in
a public setting and having this kind of feedback, this
(36:18):
kind of dialogue about it for months and years thereafter.
There's a lot of grief that comes with it. You've
lost something, you've lost a certain kind of piece, you've
lost a certain kind of contentment, and a certain kind
of clarity in the aftermath of that. And so part
(36:38):
of I think your task, or anyone that's been in
a situation like that, is to mobilize a new narrative, right,
is to mobilize a new paradigm. So who am I
in the aftermath of this? Because this can't delete this,
this is always going to be true, right, And so
deciding and I know this is part of how you're
(36:59):
kind climbing out of where you've been, that it is
okay to have not been able to do better when
you didn't know better, and that it is incumbent upon
you now to do better when you do know better.
That's part of the evolution of being human. And we
all are doing really well if we consider ourselves to
(37:20):
be on that path. I think also, that's just so
for just my certain situation, Like that's so hard for
(37:43):
me to get to that point of like it's okay, Olivia,
Like you you didn't know back then, and then you
obviously have so many people online being like you should
have known, you should have done better, this shouldn't have
happened in the first place, Like, and then you have
people telling you like, well, clearly you haven't learned anything still,
and it's it's hard when you're in the actual position
(38:05):
and you it's like what do you have, Hey, you
don't know me, how do you know that? And be
I would be crazy to not have learned anything from
this situation of just constant like guilt and stress that
I've given to myself and waking up every day for
almost two years straight and seeing something written about you
or and I'm not saying this to throw myself a
(38:27):
little pity party, because I also think it's circumstantial. Obviously
we really messed up. I don't want that to be
taken out of context, but just speaking as a human,
just with my own mental it's like, I don't know,
it's just so much harder for me to be like
forgiving of myself because I feel so unforgiven by what
(38:47):
feels like the entire world to me is just like
everybody hates me. Yes, I deeply hear that, And it
presents a unique and super painful challenge because your task
is ultimately going to be being able to divide out
a space for your own voice, for your own ideas
(39:10):
about what forgiveness looks like, from what part of you
it comes from, and the road that you're going to
get on moving forward, and that is going to have
to be separate from the voices and the feedback of others.
And I am deeply acknowledging how difficult and painful that is.
(39:30):
Any one of us would be impacted by that kind
of energy coming our way, But nonetheless, in the face
of it, we have to decide that we are we
want to use the word deserving. That what you were
just saying before really resonated with me. How you were
talking about h the idea that people are saying to you,
(39:50):
what but but you shouldn't known better, you should have
known better? And you are you are agreeing with it.
You are affirming that truth. Right, You're agree that you
you wish you had known better, you should have known better.
That's part of the uh. Um, the journey here, that's
part of the reconciliation is the recognition that you couldn't,
you didn't and uh, the enlightenment that came after the fact,
(40:15):
that that's part of the pain that you felt and
that others are ascribing to you. Right, that's that's part
of what you're acknowledging and part of what we're living with.
And I think, um, there is UM. I don't want
to put this. There's a way in which that people
that consume situations like yours, right, who consume it, read
(40:38):
about it, comment about it think about it. UM. While
many of them have their own appropriate emotional opinions, uh,
some of them also are projecting their own pain, their
own confusion, their own ideas onto your yours and other
situations right UM that uh, their own trauma, their own disenfranchisement,
(41:04):
their own anxieties and fears that occur in their own
life make it difficult to stift through your journey and
to uh get on board with um your evolution. And
it's just something to remember. It's not meant as a
UM a way to disparage anyone who thinks about the
(41:25):
situation has commented on it. There's just a lot of
projection happening. There's a lot of emotion that has come
with this situation, and some of it is about what happened,
and some of it is about the folks that are
consuming this information. So all of this to say, you
can't forever live in other people's projections. It will it will, um,
(41:45):
it will leave you sort of forever victimized if that's
the case. And how in honestly, this is just a
personal question, but with trauma, like how do you start
to move forward from that and not let it dictate
your future? And I guess just just not be so
hard on yourself. But are there certain steps you take
(42:08):
besides just you know, recognizing like, Okay, I know my truth,
I know who I am as a human. Like it's
time to just you know, start to let go and
try your best to move forward and to do better.
But maybe for somebody that didn't make a specific mistake
but just has uh some sort of guilt or trauma
in their life and they're beating themselves up every day
and they're in this hole so so deep, and they
(42:29):
don't see the light at the end of the tunnel yet,
and they don't see a great future ahead of them,
and they kind of feel like their whole world is
crashing down on them. Like what type of advice would
you give somebody who's going through something like that. Yeah,
I I'd be remist if I didn't say, And maybe
this is obvious, but that if someone is suffering in
that way so persistently, so protically seeking outside help, is
(42:52):
is really important that that that's a really important thing
that I encourage And hopefully the stigma associated with mental
health intervention is much less um and so that would
be the first line of defense. I would absolutely encourage.
But in terms of what we can do moment to moment,
day by day, a really important concept I like to
talk about is kind of the interruption of neural pathways
(43:15):
UM that repeat UM and elongate and prolonged trauma. And
this is what I mean. So when you, for example, UM,
and I can extend it out to other folks as well,
But when you read a comment online or something, you
have a neural pathway that goes from UM, you don't
deserve to be forgiven. Maybe that's the comment all the
way to like I'm a bad person, I'm not worthy. Um,
(43:37):
I'm I'm bad, I'm wrong. Right, there's like sort of
an automatic thing that takes place in your brain. It's
so well traveled at this point that a stimuli like
a comment on your Instagram or an article takes you
all the way to that really bad place without thought.
It almost happens involuntarily, and all of a sudden you're
in this anxious, depressed place. And so we want to
(43:58):
get to the point where we build muscle to interrupt
that well traveled neural pathway that like stimulus boom, we're
all the way to like I'm not worthy, I'm not Okay,
I'm not deserving. This is going to be my life forever,
and so doing a version of um when you read
that comment, when you see that article, or I'm taking
it outside of your context, when uh, someone's excluded at school, etcetera.
(44:20):
Right noticing if you go all the way there, if
you're about to go all the way to there, to
sort of say like stop, like literally, I'd like to
recommend like picturing like a red stops. I'm like, stop stop.
I'm not going to allow myself to go all the
way there. I'm gonna interrupt with another dialogue, with another narrative.
I'm not saying that this other dialogue or other narrative
will magically change everything in that moment, but what it
(44:43):
does do is it reduces the hold of that neural
pathway to go all the way from the stimuli to
the really bad, awful thought that we feel like we
can't get out of. It reduces the hole that it
had that our brain has on us, so that over time,
little by little, we start chipping away that automatic process
that always leaves us in the same hopeless, helpless space.
(45:05):
So being able in your examples that interrupt and go
like wait a minute, Like I I've decided to to
think about this differently. I've decided that I'm human being
that has a chance. I'm not going to make that
that evaluation, that assessment about myself in this moment. I'm
not going to take it all the way there. I'm
just gonna say, like, that's painful, that hurts, kind of
gonna leave it there. For example, it's just a way
(45:26):
of interrupting that process that brings us all the way
to that conclusion without even recognizing it, and all of
a sudden, we're in a bad space. We have a
lot of bad negative self talk, and we kind of
don't even know how or why. And so instead pulling
back and focusing on the feeling this felt really hurtful,
This felt really out of control, This felt really upsetting,
This felt really anxiety provoking. Right, the feeling that came
(45:47):
up in reading that article or reading that circumstance, we
are reading that comment rather than going all the way
to that conclusion about yourself. Um yeah, I think that's
amazing advice for I mean, who is E really listening
to this? No matter how old you are, I think
there's something really valuable in that um lesson in general.
So I think let's end on that positive note and
(46:09):
a huge, huge thank you too for coming on Conversations
today and spitting all your wisdom and I'm sure helping
so many people because I know through social media, especially
especially with my generation, we all struggle with this to
a certain degree. So it was an honor to have you.
And yeah, just thank you for your service and your
(46:30):
work and helping others and keeping people's mentals and check
because I know it is so important. So you're very
very appreciated. Well, thank you for being so candid and vulnerable.
I really appreciate it. Thank you so so much. I
am so excited we did it. My first podcast checked
off the list. I am really looking forward to the
(46:52):
future podcast. I'm going to have so many different guests
from some celebrities you know, to friends, to mentors to
experts in certain us to help us through life in general.
So thank you guys so much for listening, and please
make sure to tweet me, DM me, just contact me
through social media so I can hear what else you
(47:12):
guys want to see on this podcast and what you
guys want to listen to. And I just want to
make this a safe space. For everybody, so cheers to
the first one being done and too many more amazing
recordings
This is Conversations with Olivia Jade and I heart radio podcast.
Hi everybody, welcome to my podcast Conversations. I am so
(00:23):
excited to have this platform, and I honestly couldn't think
of a better first episode than having an amazing therapist
on Dr Goldcher. Therapy has helped me so much in
so many different ways, and I just wanna have this
platform and this opportunity to maybe help somebody else who
(00:44):
doesn't have access to a therapist or could really just
use some advice. And we tried to keep this pretty general.
I'm really really honored to have her on the podcast,
and I hope you guys enjoy. So let's just dive
right into it. Hi, Dr Goldcher, Hi Olivia, how are you.
I'm good. It's so nice to meet you, So nice
(01:05):
to meet you. Thank you so much for coming on. Well,
thank you for being brave. This is not easy, and
so I think it's it's really an amazing milestone in
your healing process that you're here in this context willing
to have this really vulnerable conversation. So thank you. Yeah,
(01:28):
I think I definitely want to open up today. I
want to hear, I want to learn a little bit
too about certain things. And obviously I've done a little
bit of research on you before coming on here today,
and um, I think a starting point that is something
that means a lot to me. And I don't want
to I'm like nervous to talk about this in general,
just because I feel like I've just gone through it
(01:50):
personally myself. So it is a weird thing to talk about,
and I don't want to upset anybody when I'm talking
about it or um, but I know you talk about
a lot of you know, the idea behind cancel culture
and how it has certain mental health effects on somebody,
and it's something I'm super fascinated by. Yeah, And so
(02:10):
first of all, maybe you could just tell the listeners
a little bit about what you do, who you are,
and then we can kind of jump into that conversation.
That sounds great. Well, I'm Dr Hillary Culture. I'm a
licensed clinical psychologist and pre COVID. I operated out of
my office in Beverly Hills, but now I'm in my
(02:31):
virtual office out of my home, and I specialized in
trauma and anxiety and depression and also work with parents
and kiddos quite a bit as well. I do some
work on Instagram to kind of um put forth some
of my ideas and do a lot of media work
(02:51):
as well, CNN Box podcasts like this one. Um, and
it's it's really my pleasure to be with you today.
So that's a little quick summary. Um okay, Well, I think, yeah,
let's just jump right into it. In general, I think
that I kind of want to just talk about just
to start, like, obviously, right now, I think, especially with
(03:14):
my generation, cancel culture and the bandwagon effect and the
mob mentality of it is really prevalent, and it's so big,
and I think it's so much bigger than I'm not
even just talking about like any of my own personal situations,
but just in general through kids over zoom in school,
like being canceled from a classmate behind a screen, And
(03:36):
I think it's obviously just a huge thing right now,
and it's something I'm really passionate about because I know,
you know in the past how it's affected my mental health.
But I think a lot of people don't realize the
effects it actually has. And I want to hear more
of like a professional and like a scientific kind of
explanation of that if you're willing to, just so people
(03:57):
can understand a little bit more, of course, yes. And
you know, the notion of cancel culture evolved in a
really intense set of environmental and cultural circumstances right kind
of on the heels of the Me Too movement and
(04:17):
all of the black life matters issues and a lot
of political important issues that came up, and people wanted
to hold other people accountable. This is not in and
of itself a bad thing, the idea that we hold
up issues that don't serve ourselves as individuals, that don't
serve our society, and we call it out and we
say we want change. Right. It sort of began as
(04:40):
a wave of really accountability, but it has evolved into
cancel culture, which, as most of the listeners know, is
that some version of really deleting someone from their personal
and professional stature in the community and um in social media,
etcetera after a series of or particular mistake. And when
(05:03):
you ask the question, what happens to a person that's
at the center of cancel culture, it's such a critical issue.
It's so important to look at the other side because
while we can hold a space for holding someone accountable,
we also have to hold a space for looking at
what happens to that person on the other side, And
the answer is it is a traumatic event. It is
(05:25):
an absolutely traumatic event that can lead to depression, anxiety,
and sort of a complete disorientation of the self. Right.
One identifies themselves through certain relationships, through certain markers in
their lives, and they see themselves through their own eyes
and how others see them as well, and when those
(05:48):
things collapse or are eliminated or are disallowed, it's super disorienting.
And so I've said this before and other contexts, but
my issue from clinical standpoint and from sort of a
human being standpoint with cancel culture is that it forecloses
the most important thing about the issues that are being raised,
(06:09):
which is an opportunity for learning, for education, and for
the public at large to witness someone in that process,
which is invaluable. And so when we have someone like
you and others that is standing in an error, standing
and a mistake, is standing in an event which with
(06:31):
which they have regret or which they could change, and
we foreclose the opportunity for that dialogue to occur, so
much is lost, an opportunity for growth, and so much
as lost for that person at the center of it. Yeah,
and I feel like I'm so or just personally, I'm
so hesitant to talk about this, and I think it's
(06:51):
like I'm so hesitant to talk about it because of
the trauma that you're kind of talking about it, like
oh gosh, if I say this or if it comes
off like kind of the wrong way, am I going
to get canceled again? Or is this going to be
a thing? And it really does leave such an impression
in one's mind, you know, like really I and I again,
I get so nervous. I feel like I walk on
eggshells when I talk, just because I don't want to
(07:13):
say the wrong thing, and I want to make it
clear to people listening that like I'm not trying to
victimize myself, but I also I'm trying just from being
and having this personal experience, Like I really do understand
like how different of a person I've become because of it,
and not entirely in a good way. Sometimes, like I
(07:34):
really do feel like I have way harder days or
I'm way harder on myself, and I'm so scared of
like looking at my name and something bad is happening
and I'm the face of it, and it's gonna be
like this big thing that blows up in my face again.
And it's like it's so interesting to me because I
feel like people who have experienced it, even if it's
in a different capacity, like you just you live your
(07:55):
life a little bit a little bit differently in my opinion,
and you just kind of shut down and you don't
you almost start to you like kind of start to
believe what people are telling you, like you don't deserve
a second chance, and like there is no room for growth,
and you feel like not to sound super dark, but
it's like just what how do you bounce back then?
(08:17):
Because I want to be alive. I still want to
grow up. I want to you know. But then you
have people saying like, well, you don't deserve to and
you should go hide forever, and it's almost just like,
in kind of a dark way, it's just like don't
exist anymore basically, which obviously is really hard to hear,
especially when you're the person being told that. You know, yeah,
(08:38):
there's that message of literal annihilation which is really dark
and really lonely and scary, and I want to help
you in this moment create a paradigm goes for you
individually and maybe for the listeners, which is the idea
that things can co exist. Feelings can co exist, steps
(09:00):
can coexist, they can live side by side. And how
this applies to what we're talking about is the idea
that two things can be true at the same time.
You can both have deep regret about what transpired. You
can have um a wish to imagine too, the opportunity
to do it differently. And at the same time you
(09:21):
can also have the capacity and the ability and the
fantasy and the hope to change and grow and to
use your life to do good in the world and
to help teach others. These things can be true at
the same time, and I think for you personally, it's
one of the things that over time that will probably
help ground you that you're going to, in my view,
(09:43):
have to lean into because ultimately, at the end of
the day, you're going to have to decide how to
move forward with all of these things true at the
same time. Right there, there maybe folks who decide they
don't forgive you, or decide that to see you thrive,
um uh, sort of as in violation of the sanctity
(10:04):
of the errors that you made. Right, But there are
also going to be a lot of folks who are
cheering for you, and ultimately you have to decide what
you want to make of this. And so I think
for you as you speak about it, as you think
about it, both publicly and personally, holding those truth for yourself,
that these things are true at the same time, right,
And and that in part is in my view, what
(10:26):
gives you the the right, the courage, the ability to
move forward. You can both have regret and understanding and
at the same time want something for yourself. Yeah, and
just obviously I'm just speaking a little bit about this
and like my personal life, just because I do feel
like I understand it to a certain degree, but obviously
it's so much bigger than just me, and I'd way
(10:48):
rather talk about other people, like not in maybe the
public eye, but that are dealing with the same sense
of bullying and mold mentality. And as a therapist, obviously
like some advice you could give to them and how
to get through that and how you get through to
the other side, and when you are having a really
bad day, if you have any tips, because I know
a lot of my viewers on YouTube there constantly in
(11:09):
my messages, just like how are you getting through this
rough day? Or and I just feel like, as much
as I'd love to give advice, I'm not licensed nor professional,
and so um I think would be really helpful for
some people to hear it from you. Yeah, yeah, I
think one of the most important things. And maybe this
seems paradoxical to getting through, but in fact it's really
(11:32):
a requirement is to validate the feelings deeply acknowledge them
to yourself and if you have safe others to talk about, right,
is to validate and acknowledge how difficult it is, how
painful it is, how traumatic it is, how big it
is to be canceled, to feel bullied, to feel um separated,
(11:54):
to feel excluded. Right, that is, that is a huge
trauma for anyone at a public macro level, like you've
dealt with or someone as you're talking about that's in
their fifth grade classroom and have you left out of
a birthday party? Right? The loneness that comes with that,
the trauma, the anxiety, the fear about what this means
(12:15):
for the future is devastating. And so just to acknowledge
that those feelings that are coming up in the face
of that are normal, are expected, are appropriate, I think
is really important because we can feel like, oh, we
want to make those feelings go away, or we shouldn't
talk about them, or something's wrong with us that we're
feeling so broken. In the face of it, those kind
of feelings are normal. It's sort of a primitive edict
(12:35):
for us to feel connected and included, and when that
doesn't happen, it's devastating. It's really really hard. So the
first step is kind of acknowledging, validating, and the second
step is being able to create a narrative inside of yourself,
which is a really really tall order of what we're
feeling traumatized right and we're feeling separate and excluded, but
(12:55):
we have to decide who we're going to be in
the face of these kind of challenges. Is how we're
going to view ourselves, what we're going to say to ourselves,
what we're gonna say to ourselves about what's happening, and
so being able to lean into what you know about yourself,
how you move through the world, the connections you have
with your friends, with your family, the kindness that you
show others who you are deeply inside, being able to
(13:18):
hold onto that narrative because in the end, it's really
us um that carries the strongest messages about ourselves. Right,
It's that voice that we have inside of ourselves that
informs how we move through the day. So being able
to be extent possible to mobilize what we know about
ourselves and keep interrupting that self talk even though those
(13:39):
messages are coming in, even though they're devastating, even though
they're painful, to keep replacing them with the truth that
you know about yourself. And I want to pause and
acknowledge that this is the hardest thing ever. I mean,
this is this is like kids, teenagers, young adults, grown ups,
and um senior citizens. We work on this our our
whole lives. Being able to not live in the projections
(14:01):
of others, being able to use our own voice to
replace the ideas of notions and the judgment of others.
It's really, really, really, really hard, But it's a muscle
that we have to build. And then we want to
get into a bunch of self care as we go
through this like tremendously difficult journey. Right, And so the
things that make you feel good, whether it's meditation or
music or taking a bath or connecting with a loved
(14:24):
one reading a book. It's critical to kind of facilitate
opportunities to calm our body as we do this deep work.
And I call it deep work because standing up in
the face of negative voices is is one of the
hardest things to do in the whole world. And so
I don't have advice that makes it go away, but
I have guidance to help build that part inside of
(14:47):
yourself that says like I'm I'm I'm good enough. I
deserve to to to be here. I deserve to live
a life even if I don't have the approving eyes
and words of others. I'm enough. Yeah. And I think
also with with social media and how obviously it's just
at its peak and everybody's on social media from twelve
(15:08):
to thirteen year olds, and I feel like that's amplified
cancel culture in itself. And I guess I'm just trying
to ask on top of that, maybe like what advice
could you give, because that the last thing you said,
I think is super helpful um for a lot of people.
But with social media, with I feel like so many
young women and men comparing themselves and feeling like, you know,
(15:30):
they're not worthy of this or this person's life looks
so perfect on this platform and then you get really
down on yourself. And although it's not really having to
do with cancel culture, I do think it's like another
little form of maybe trauma is not the right word,
but just like, I don't know, you could probably phrase
this way more eloquently than I am, but am I
(15:53):
kind of making sense that you're understanding what I'm saying,
Just like, how how to help younger kids through that
and looking at social media and comparing themselves and feeling
so down on themselves that it does create a different
level of depression, And um, yeah, I guess that's kind
of what my main point is. Your your point is
a critical one and should be an ongoing discussion that
(16:16):
we have as parents, as caregivers of children, as teachers,
and amongst our our our kids and young adults. The
dynamic you're talking about is devastating for young people, right
This whole to compare um, what your own life feels
like relative to what other people's lives look like, and
(16:39):
the very nature of social media. We can have a
whole other discussion about this is designed to do just that.
There's sort of an addictive quality that it pulls for
right and and we all are susceptible, regardless of your
age or station in life. So I have a few
few thoughts. One is pretty practical and perhaps obvious, but
I think social media breaks are critical. And if our
(17:00):
parents listening out there to really take the temperature of
your teens and your young adults that you're still connected
with or live in your house, and employ social media
breaks to interrupt this addictive poll to compare, and you
lift um our sense of self outside of that tunnel
and um more outside into the world in terms of
(17:22):
how we move through it and what we do. Um.
It's a more practical piece of advice, but um, the
dynamic that kids face is really complex, and so you
have to continue to build a narrative about yourself right
and before Actually, I want to step back and say
this as a as a psychologist, and I work with
(17:43):
folks in the public eye, and I work with folks
not in the public eye. And the notion of social
media and this comparison culture comes up all the time.
Um for folks that are celebrities and have a lot
of power and famous, and for folks who sort of
live a non public life. It is you big? It is.
It is across the board, And so no matter how
many followers you have, UM, what your body looks like,
(18:06):
what your clothes look like, what relationships are in and
how many friends you have, etcetera. Everyone everyone, And I
can underscore this looks like a yellow highlighter and it
feels the same. And I know it's hard to believe if, um,
you're looking at this hierarchy and see celebrity, and UM,
folks that look a certain way or project a certain image,
(18:27):
they have to be at the top of the untill
health hierarchy. Right, That's the thought that consumers of social
media think. But I'm here to tell you that that
is not true. Everyone has the same feelings of insecurity,
the same fears of not being accepted, the same concerns
about their acceptability internally externally. It is the same across
(18:48):
the board. I see it all of the time, and
so I guess i'd start there that you are not alone.
Everyone feels these feelings, and it's why it's so critical
to interrupt your consumption so that you get some relief.
And then, as I was talking about before, we sort
of hit this before, but maintaining that narrative about what
is actually important to you, what actually resonates in your life,
(19:11):
what actually moves you, What are you here to do?
What services are you here to provide to those in
your life? Right, those are the things that help ground
us over time and so beginning, and you know, if
you're in fifth grade, that might be might be lofty questions,
but then the lean of the idea of like who
am I? What makes me me? That's the most important.
(19:33):
You know, how do I relate to my friends? One?
Are the things that I like to do? What are
the things that I like about myself? It's really critical
to keep that kind of dynamic dialogue going internally to
combat these messages that are coming in. And I wish
I had a a perfect response to this enormous dilemma
(19:53):
because it absolutely contributes to anxiety and depression in our
young kids and and and adults as well. And so
we have to get really active in the face of it.
We have to get really active about the voices inside
our mind and interrupting how we talk to ourselves. Yeah,
and it's feeling like this thing is kind of inevitable
and it's social media is here to stay. And that's
(20:15):
how it feels like. So I think that's great advice.
It's really trying to dig deep within yourself to find
a way to get through it, because it doesn't seem
like right now at this rate, it's you know, really
going anywhere, and a conversation I feel like I have
so often with and I'm just curious on your opinion
of it. But I talked about this with my sister
a lot, just because I think I was probably one
(20:35):
of the last like age groups to not grow up
with social media and Instagram I think was created when
I was a teenager, so I didn't have that like
you know, when I was younger, I was playing with
dolls and I wasn't comparing myself and I at a
young age, you're not looking at magazine covers and models.
And now these kids are looking at basically magazine covers
(20:57):
on their own Instagrams with photos that have been touched,
and it's just a completely different game for these kids now.
And I think that something we talked about a lot
is that is is it appropriate to say maybe social
media should have an age restriction and would that help
with mental health in a certain capacity? Yes, yes, yes,
(21:19):
a million thousand times yes, it would be absolutely my
clinical professional preference that kids maybe wouldn't get on Instagram
and social media until sixteen. Yeah, because that's what I
remember obviously growing up. Now you have kids, like even
my friends little sisters, who are twelve and thirteen years old,
and they're looking at these eighteen year olds on social media,
(21:42):
and I think it's creating a whole lot of problems
mentally because hey, you're almost seven years, eight years younger
than a lot of these people you're looking at, So
you're gonna get to that point eventually in your life.
You're gonna grow up, You're gonna be mature one day.
And it's like it's almost I feel like stripping your
youth a little bit because you're just you want to
(22:02):
grow up so much faster. And there's a reason when
we were like my friends and I growing up, when
you'd watch TV and commercials, the commercials were really catered
towards children. And now, you know, with the access to
just see anything, I feel like you're just prone to
grow up so much more, I guess, just quickly. But
also I think it does have some you know, really
(22:24):
hard effects on young girls and guys and mental health
for sure. Yeah, I mean it's it's shifting the paradigm
right under our noses, right that young girls, I think
in particular, are thinking about their physical appearance, are thinking
about their bodies, are thinking about their impact on others
in that regard at such a young age. Yeah, being
(22:48):
able to interrupt all of the questions and insecurities and
fears and confusion that comes with those thoughts at that
age is sort of a crisis in our country right now.
And and less social media is somehow eliminated, it's really incumbent,
(23:08):
as I was saying before, on professionals like myself and
parents and caregivers and teachers and mentors of kids to
interrupt the narrative that comes along with it. What's wrong
with me? I'm not good enough. I need to have
these things in order to be acceptable and to really
pare down a child's or young adult exposure to that
(23:29):
because you're You're right, notions and ideas and narratives about
themselves are getting in their way before that they would
are used to. Yeah. And it's like it's interesting too
because I sit here and I am so passionate about this,
Like I really do believe there needs to be an
age restriction, especially just seeing you know, like my younger
cousins or my friends, little sisters or little brothers and um.
(23:52):
But I think also at the same time, it's so
hypocritical for me to sit here and say that, because
then I feel like I'm adding to the problem of being,
you know, in my twenties on a public platform, posting
all my best angles and not wanting to show the
hard moments. And so it's interesting too, It's like, how
can I be better? But at the same time, I'm
still human and I want to fit in and I
(24:14):
want people to think, oh, wow, she has her stuff
together and oh look at that, like she looks great
in that, because you want that validation. I think, you know,
there's like a little level of like narcissism that comes
with social media because you're just feeding off of people's
um just perception of you. Well, just you saying this
out loud right now is a very cool beginning to
(24:34):
that dialogue. Right. This is the very paradox of social
media and why this addictive quality to it is that
all of us can have the conversation about the damage
that it causes or the poll that it has on
any one of us to present our kind of best sides,
and yet most of us still are compelled to do
(24:57):
just that, right, Yeah, you don't want to show off
the bad at all, And like, even if you know
this could probably help somebody today, you're so in your
head and you're I feel like I can speak on
behalf of a lot of people that are also maybe
in the same like industry as me or whatever it
might be. But it's just like, you want to help
so many people. You don't want to give off this
fake idea that your life is perfect, but at the
(25:18):
same time, you're seeking validation from people you look up
to or you see somebody else on social media that's,
you know, so to speak, quote unquote a level higher,
and you want to get to that. And it's just like,
I don't know, it's a vicious cycle because for me personally,
I want to be able to like preach and help
those and be like, Okay, life isn't perfect. And if
you saw that, I had a thousand photos just taken
(25:41):
of me and two of them looked okay that are
on my Instagram now and the rest are totally not
what those ones represent at all. It's like, I don't know,
it's hard because I want to be helpful, but also
being a human, you want to be liked and you
want to feel beautiful and you want to be validated. Yeah,
(26:14):
what do you think your biggest fears are associated with
that possibility? You know that if you did present a
less curated version of yourself in in your social media world,
what are what are your biggest fears around that? I
think for me personally, I have such a hard time
being vulnerable and opening up in general, and I almost
(26:34):
just feel like maybe if I showed my genuine personality
and somebody didn't like that, it would hurt so much
more than somebody seeing this like surface level of me online,
because it's like, yeah, you can talk poorly about me
for that, but like, thank god I didn't really actually
put my all into that or really show who I
am at my core, because I'm so afraid people won't
(26:56):
like it, which, in turn, I feel like would hurts
so much more than somebody not liking this perfect version
of me, because I know that's not true. You know, Yes,
So it's sort of a protective shell and it's total
defense mechanism of just like okay, well, well what it
feels like is that there's only a certain level of
(27:16):
damage or hurt or pain that can be caused because
of these boundaries you have in place. But I would
offer this this possibility we can think about together, which
is that ultimately, um, there's some there's some internal damage
that that potentially takes place in this scenario. Right if
there's a part of you that has this poll to
(27:37):
like show up in a more authentic, messy, perfect way,
because perhaps that's part of your calling, that's part of
what you're meant to do here, right, Um, but you're
limited by these fears of being unaccepted. Um for who
you sort of truly are. There's kind of a gap
(28:00):
but what we call and there will be like a
cognitive dissidence between who you really are inside and sort
of what you're putting out there, and that can cause
a kind of anxiety that can cause a sort of
lack of groundedness or a little bit of disorientation. And
I would argue that although it's true, I think you're
(28:21):
absolutely right that if you put more authentic images, more
slices of yourself that are more vulnerable, more imperfect, and
they were rejected, that it would hurt in a different
way I think. I think that's right. It makes sense
to me. It's it's more vulnerable, it's more real, and
it feels like people are commenting on something that that
is straight from the heart. You know, that's part of
(28:41):
your soul, your spirit, but none Nonetheless, there's a way
in which then you still get to stand more fully
kind of in who you are, right And I think
that ultimately gives us a place of greater empowerment. When
there's less of a gap between we are inside and
how we move through the world, we are better poised
(29:01):
to stand um in the face of that kind of rejection. Right, Yeah,
I couldn't agree more. It's tough, easier said than done,
though you know doubt it's easier said than that than done.
It would be a huge emotional risk, yeah, that, and
(29:22):
it would require you maybe to um uh, maybe there's
a part of you that tends to exile that imperfect
parts of you, the messy parts of you, the chaotic
parts of you. Right, it would require you to bring
that a bit closer, and I think in the end
it would develop a much stronger sense of self. But
(29:45):
in the short run, is that you like getting comfortable
and just the idea of it, it would be really uncomfortable. Yeah,
And speaking of that sort of I feel like on
the topic of wanting people to like you and then
also wanting to show a different set of yourself, and
then I think there's also a part of it where
(30:06):
for anybody, I feel like, in any situation, big or small,
I just kind of want to hear your perspective on
self forgiveness and like not being so especially as you're
growing up and you're still so young. If we have
young listeners right now, like if you have a little
bit of guilt, and it can be on a big
scale or a really small scale, but how you just
(30:28):
come to and like not absolutely beat yourself up for
a mistake. I think would be helpful to hear about.
It's such an important ongoing life skill to adapt this
notion of accepting oneself as good enough, yeah, right, accepting
(30:53):
oneself as being a human being that will make mistakes,
have moments of weakness show up in ways that we
won't feel good about. That isn't just a young person's thing.
That's a human being thing, and we have to develop
a relationship with that truth over time in the name
(31:13):
of our mental health and in the name of being
able to continue to grow and to cultivate healthy relationships
with people that would love, with partners, with kids, etcetera.
So to kind of break that down, um starting with
that paradigm, the idea that like, we are all going
to make mistakes, We're all going to show up in
ways that we don't feel good about. Feelings like anger
(31:37):
or jealousy or frustration or sadness or ego which isn't
really a feeling the state of being right, are are
going to enter our lives and at times we're not
going to be able to get ahead of it, and
being able to recognize that that's part of the experience
of being human is a beginning. And the second part
(31:59):
I is being able to make amends. I think oftentimes
in the face of us showing up in ways that
we don't feel good about, we shut down, We suppressed,
we don't want to space right, we avoid, we deny,
we just mess who you're raising up your finger? Right?
And this isn't because we don't care. It's because we've
become so overwhelmed, we're sort of paralyzed with fear and
(32:21):
we can't act. And this happens across the board. I
see this with young people, and I see this with
folks who are you know, well into their seventies. Right.
It's a defense mechanism UM to not stand in the
damage that we've caused, to not stand um in in
the discomfort of recognizing parts of ourselves that we don't
feel good about. This, to me is the most critical
(32:41):
step is to sort of take the risk to stand
in it, you know, to take the risk to stand
in it first by ourselves, to really say out loud
to ourselves or a therapy situation to our best friend
with a trusted safe other, to being being able to
say this happened. I don't feel good about it. I
showed up in a way that I don't like. I
I I wish I had done it differently. I regret it.
(33:02):
And being able to just stand in that truth instead
of ignoring it dismissing it ross over is the first
step in healing. And then I was I was talking
about making amends, being able to go to the person
or the persons that were affected and saying I didn't
like what I said back there. I didn't feel good
about it. I shut up in a way that that
I don't like and I was angry, I was sad,
I was depressed, I was jealous, right, And it's not
(33:24):
an excuse what that's what happened. I'm gonna be working
on that and trying to and trying to do better
next time. And in a way it sounds simple, um,
but I think people would be surprised how often folks
don't do that, don't lean into what happened, and can't find,
um the words or the strength to say those things
(33:46):
out loud. It's not that it's not hard. It's so
so so hard, but we need to work really hard
to kind of interrupt those tendencies to just shut down. Yeah,
And I think for me it's like I relate to
that too, and different level of just being so hard
on myself and just speaking to myself in such a
negative way because of making a mistake so publicly. I
(34:11):
think it's hard growing up and just in general making
mistakes privately in the comfort of your own home with
your family and friends to get you through things. And
then I think when you mess up in the public
eye and you have millions of people and every day
there's an article coming out about you that says this
or this, isn't true, but now everybody believes it, and
is there even a point in trying to clear up
(34:32):
that rumor because people already hate me anyway, so like
why should I forgive myself? And it gets like, just
for speaking from experience, it's like really challenging to It's
just yeah, I think it's just really challenging for me
personally to let go of so much guilt. Yes, yes,
(34:52):
one of my favorite exercises. And I wonder how this
will resonate and and maybe less so for younger people.
But it is to think of about what you would
say to your your own daughter or to your little sister.
Right made a mistake and made it publicly. The message
that you would give wouldn't be some version of like
(35:12):
you need to you need to to stay in the
depth of that mistake. You need to feel bad for
as long as you can. You need to never forgive yourself.
And we wouldn't say that, We would say some persion
of like, it's okay, it's okay to to to to
show up in a way that you didn't feel good about.
It's okay that you didn't know then what you know now.
(35:33):
It's okay that you're a learning, growing, thinking, feeling, evolving
human being, and it's okay to carve out a path
to do better. We would say that to our little sister,
we would say that to our daughter. We have to
adopt that narrative for ourselves. It doesn't exclude us, it
must include us. And and there's no doubt, I mean,
I really wanted to to lean into what you were
(35:56):
talking about making a mistake in such a public fashion,
and I know you're a low to hold yourself up
as a victim or someone that's suffering. That isn't what
you've said at all, and I really want to highlight that.
But there is a certain grief, and we already use
the word trauma that comes with making a mistake in
a public setting and having this kind of feedback, this
(36:18):
kind of dialogue about it for months and years thereafter.
There's a lot of grief that comes with it. You've
lost something, you've lost a certain kind of piece, you've
lost a certain kind of contentment, and a certain kind
of clarity in the aftermath of that. And so part
(36:38):
of I think your task, or anyone that's been in
a situation like that, is to mobilize a new narrative, right,
is to mobilize a new paradigm. So who am I
in the aftermath of this? Because this can't delete this,
this is always going to be true, right, And so
deciding and I know this is part of how you're
(36:59):
kind climbing out of where you've been, that it is
okay to have not been able to do better when
you didn't know better, and that it is incumbent upon
you now to do better when you do know better.
That's part of the evolution of being human. And we
all are doing really well if we consider ourselves to
(37:20):
be on that path. I think also, that's just so
for just my certain situation, Like that's so hard for
(37:43):
me to get to that point of like it's okay, Olivia,
Like you you didn't know back then, and then you
obviously have so many people online being like you should
have known, you should have done better, this shouldn't have
happened in the first place, Like, and then you have
people telling you like, well, clearly you haven't learned anything still,
and it's it's hard when you're in the actual position
(38:05):
and you it's like what do you have, Hey, you
don't know me, how do you know that? And be
I would be crazy to not have learned anything from
this situation of just constant like guilt and stress that
I've given to myself and waking up every day for
almost two years straight and seeing something written about you
or and I'm not saying this to throw myself a
(38:27):
little pity party, because I also think it's circumstantial. Obviously
we really messed up. I don't want that to be
taken out of context, but just speaking as a human,
just with my own mental it's like, I don't know,
it's just so much harder for me to be like
forgiving of myself because I feel so unforgiven by what
(38:47):
feels like the entire world to me is just like
everybody hates me. Yes, I deeply hear that, And it
presents a unique and super painful challenge because your task
is ultimately going to be being able to divide out
a space for your own voice, for your own ideas
(39:10):
about what forgiveness looks like, from what part of you
it comes from, and the road that you're going to
get on moving forward, and that is going to have
to be separate from the voices and the feedback of others.
And I am deeply acknowledging how difficult and painful that is.
(39:30):
Any one of us would be impacted by that kind
of energy coming our way, But nonetheless, in the face
of it, we have to decide that we are we
want to use the word deserving. That what you were
just saying before really resonated with me. How you were
talking about h the idea that people are saying to you,
(39:50):
what but but you shouldn't known better, you should have
known better? And you are you are agreeing with it.
You are affirming that truth. Right, You're agree that you
you wish you had known better, you should have known better.
That's part of the uh. Um, the journey here, that's
part of the reconciliation is the recognition that you couldn't,
you didn't and uh, the enlightenment that came after the fact,
(40:15):
that that's part of the pain that you felt and
that others are ascribing to you. Right, that's that's part
of what you're acknowledging and part of what we're living with.
And I think, um, there is UM. I don't want
to put this. There's a way in which that people
that consume situations like yours, right, who consume it, read
(40:38):
about it, comment about it think about it. UM. While
many of them have their own appropriate emotional opinions, uh,
some of them also are projecting their own pain, their
own confusion, their own ideas onto your yours and other
situations right UM that uh, their own trauma, their own disenfranchisement,
(41:04):
their own anxieties and fears that occur in their own
life make it difficult to stift through your journey and
to uh get on board with um your evolution. And
it's just something to remember. It's not meant as a
UM a way to disparage anyone who thinks about the
(41:25):
situation has commented on it. There's just a lot of
projection happening. There's a lot of emotion that has come
with this situation, and some of it is about what happened,
and some of it is about the folks that are
consuming this information. So all of this to say, you
can't forever live in other people's projections. It will it will, um,
(41:45):
it will leave you sort of forever victimized if that's
the case. And how in honestly, this is just a
personal question, but with trauma, like how do you start
to move forward from that and not let it dictate
your future? And I guess just just not be so
hard on yourself. But are there certain steps you take
(42:08):
besides just you know, recognizing like, Okay, I know my truth,
I know who I am as a human. Like it's
time to just you know, start to let go and
try your best to move forward and to do better.
But maybe for somebody that didn't make a specific mistake
but just has uh some sort of guilt or trauma
in their life and they're beating themselves up every day
and they're in this hole so so deep, and they
(42:29):
don't see the light at the end of the tunnel yet,
and they don't see a great future ahead of them,
and they kind of feel like their whole world is
crashing down on them. Like what type of advice would
you give somebody who's going through something like that. Yeah,
I I'd be remist if I didn't say, And maybe
this is obvious, but that if someone is suffering in
that way so persistently, so protically seeking outside help, is
(42:52):
is really important that that that's a really important thing
that I encourage And hopefully the stigma associated with mental
health intervention is much less um and so that would
be the first line of defense. I would absolutely encourage.
But in terms of what we can do moment to moment,
day by day, a really important concept I like to
talk about is kind of the interruption of neural pathways
(43:15):
UM that repeat UM and elongate and prolonged trauma. And
this is what I mean. So when you, for example, UM,
and I can extend it out to other folks as well,
But when you read a comment online or something, you
have a neural pathway that goes from UM, you don't
deserve to be forgiven. Maybe that's the comment all the
way to like I'm a bad person, I'm not worthy. Um,
(43:37):
I'm I'm bad, I'm wrong. Right, there's like sort of
an automatic thing that takes place in your brain. It's
so well traveled at this point that a stimuli like
a comment on your Instagram or an article takes you
all the way to that really bad place without thought.
It almost happens involuntarily, and all of a sudden you're
in this anxious, depressed place. And so we want to
(43:58):
get to the point where we build muscle to interrupt
that well traveled neural pathway that like stimulus boom, we're
all the way to like I'm not worthy, I'm not Okay,
I'm not deserving. This is going to be my life forever,
and so doing a version of um when you read
that comment, when you see that article, or I'm taking
it outside of your context, when uh, someone's excluded at school, etcetera.
(44:20):
Right noticing if you go all the way there, if
you're about to go all the way to there, to
sort of say like stop, like literally, I'd like to
recommend like picturing like a red stops. I'm like, stop stop.
I'm not going to allow myself to go all the
way there. I'm gonna interrupt with another dialogue, with another narrative.
I'm not saying that this other dialogue or other narrative
will magically change everything in that moment, but what it
(44:43):
does do is it reduces the hold of that neural
pathway to go all the way from the stimuli to
the really bad, awful thought that we feel like we
can't get out of. It reduces the hole that it
had that our brain has on us, so that over time,
little by little, we start chipping away that automatic process
that always leaves us in the same hopeless, helpless space.
(45:05):
So being able in your examples that interrupt and go
like wait a minute, Like I I've decided to to
think about this differently. I've decided that I'm human being
that has a chance. I'm not going to make that
that evaluation, that assessment about myself in this moment. I'm
not going to take it all the way there. I'm
just gonna say, like, that's painful, that hurts, kind of
gonna leave it there. For example, it's just a way
(45:26):
of interrupting that process that brings us all the way
to that conclusion without even recognizing it, and all of
a sudden, we're in a bad space. We have a
lot of bad negative self talk, and we kind of
don't even know how or why. And so instead pulling
back and focusing on the feeling this felt really hurtful,
This felt really out of control, This felt really upsetting,
This felt really anxiety provoking. Right, the feeling that came
(45:47):
up in reading that article or reading that circumstance, we
are reading that comment rather than going all the way
to that conclusion about yourself. Um yeah, I think that's
amazing advice for I mean, who is E really listening
to this? No matter how old you are, I think
there's something really valuable in that um lesson in general.
So I think let's end on that positive note and
(46:09):
a huge, huge thank you too for coming on Conversations
today and spitting all your wisdom and I'm sure helping
so many people because I know through social media, especially
especially with my generation, we all struggle with this to
a certain degree. So it was an honor to have you.
And yeah, just thank you for your service and your
(46:30):
work and helping others and keeping people's mentals and check
because I know it is so important. So you're very
very appreciated. Well, thank you for being so candid and vulnerable.
I really appreciate it. Thank you so so much. I
am so excited we did it. My first podcast checked
off the list. I am really looking forward to the
(46:52):
future podcast. I'm going to have so many different guests
from some celebrities you know, to friends, to mentors to
experts in certain us to help us through life in general.
So thank you guys so much for listening, and please
make sure to tweet me, DM me, just contact me
through social media so I can hear what else you
(47:12):
guys want to see on this podcast and what you
guys want to listen to. And I just want to
make this a safe space. For everybody, so cheers to
the first one being done and too many more amazing
recordings
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