Part Two: The Vampires are on Our Side: Antifascism in Film

In part two of this week's episode, Margaret continues her conversation with Caitlin Durante about the antifascist filmmaking in Germany and Hollywood that laid much of the foundations for modern cinema.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, and welcome to cool people who did cool stuff.
I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and every week I talked
about rebels and revolutionaries and weirdos and I guess people
who passed the basic minimum bar of not like the
Nazis and people I find interesting. And with me today
is Shrek. Shrek, how are you doing? Oh? I was

(00:20):
I was gonna try to do a terrible Scottish accent,
and then oh, that's what I thought you were going
to do. I don't know what I was gonna say.
It was gonna be bad. Um, so I decided against it.
I'm great, Donkeys great, Um, Fiona is great. We're just

(00:42):
chilling in the swamp. Yeah. And UM, I believe you.
Most people might know you by your previous name, which
is I'm under the impression not a dead name, but
just not your current name, which is Caitlin Drante. Is
that that's true? Um? I I go in and out
of identities, and all of those identity these are fictional
movie characters. So right now I'm Shrek excellent, and I'm

(01:08):
the dictator of people's identities. With me today is Sophie.
How are you Sophie? Ah? No, no, no, I'm sorry.
I want to do it again. I really, I really
want to rewatch Shrek to see if it holds. We
have we have we been a Shrek on? Have we
done any of the Shreks on bet Cass? We've done

(01:29):
Shrek one and two, although I don't know if you
were present for either, but I don't think I was.
I would have had I would have been, I would
have been annoying. Um, but did they pass the beck
deel test? Um? You know what? I don't remember. Listeners,
you'll have to go back and listen to the episodes. Okay, Yeah,

(01:51):
there's no way you can just watch the movies and
find out if they passed the beck dee'l test. That.
I do really want to rewatch the movies because I
want to see if they hold up at all or
if they are an absolute nightmare. Well, you can also
listen to our episodes about them. The Shrek one episode
sucks because mostly my fault. Um it was it was
just like one of our earlier episodes. Within the first

(02:14):
like I don't know, a few months of doing the
show and before we really Jamie watch the wedding, Jamie
did watch the Wow called out has been dropping completely called.
Caitlin has a podcast called Bechdelcast where they can talk
about movies and you should listen, thank you so much.
I agree you should listen, but not to the Shrek

(02:35):
one episode. The Shrek two episode, however, is what we
did to celebrate I think the podcasts five year anniversary.
It was some celebratory episode and so Jamie and I
there's no better way than to, you know, celebrate with
some puss in boots. Oh my gosh, he and isn't

(02:57):
we supposed to be having a fiesta as Puss in boot?
It's the end of trek to Caitlin and I could
do this panter for probably several hours. So Margaret, okay, no, no, no,
please continue. This will be a three part um. Okay,

(03:18):
so Ian does our audio editing and our theme music
was written for us by a woman. One person said,
you keep saying your music is done by a woman,
And while that is true, is a as a performer
named on woman like non woman who ironically is a woman.
But so and you can check out her music much
like the music that you already listened to. Anyway. On Monday,

(03:42):
we talked about German expressionist Horror, who and the people
who fought Nazis, and today we're going to talk about
Hollywood as a sleepy little town. Have you ever heard
of Hollywood? Caitlin heard of it? I have? Yeah, it's okay,
I are you Okay, I'm back to Caitlin for now. Okay,
I have heard of Hollywood. I live adjacent to the

(04:05):
neighborhood in fact, and um, yeah, I would say I'm
very very peripherally working in Hollywood. Oh, okay, in that
I have a movie podcast that the analyze this film,
and therefore I work in Hollywood. That's how that works, right.

(04:28):
Does that mean I temporarily work in Hollywood? Yes? Yeah?
For this yes? Hell yeah. Well did you know that
there was a home grown anti Nazi league in Hollywood?
I don't know if I knew about this. What do
you think that the anti Nazi league in Hollywood was called?
Was it called the Hollywood Anti Nazi League? Why did

(04:51):
you read my script ahead of me? Is that really correct? Yeah?
Stilled the Hollywood Anti Nazi League? Okay, Well, I mean
you set me up for it, so yeah, I do
still appreciate that, probably more than anything else. The actual
long term sponsor of the show is naming things. All
of your groups have to have a league in the name,
because I think there was a period between eighteen eighty

(05:13):
and nineteen thirty where there was not a social movement organization,
both right wing or left wing, that did not have
league in the name. So and we don't use league anymore.
I know. It's it's all like people are like, I
don't know, organization or association, association group. Yeah, whatever happened

(05:39):
to league, I suspect, And I'm just gonna go ahead
and claim this is truth. Tell you the truth, which
is that in the nineteen thirties, with the fall of
the cloak as a fashion item, also fell the league's
because I think that the leagues and the cloaks were
inexcricably tied together. Okay, a cloak pin holding the two

(06:01):
concepts together. Wow makes you think, I know, I don't
sure what it makes me think. But the Hollywood Anti
Nazi League, they actually started out really cool. It was
probably the first American anti Nazi organization that wasn't specifically Jewish.
M other organizations had started earlier, and a lot of
the Hollywood Anti Nazi League was Communist like members of

(06:24):
the Communist Party, but notably a lot of it wasn't
It was sort of a a popular front against fascist
influence in filmmaking. Practically who's who of Hollywood, including communist,
liberal and conservative members actually, and including a bunch of
refugees from the Nazis like Fritz Lang, who we talked
about last time. Chico Marks, the oldest Marx brother, was
in it. John Ford, who directed The Grapes of Wrath

(06:47):
and basically like every movie at the time, was in it.
Very popular director. Yeah, and he so I looked more
into him, and he was never a communist, but he
made it clear that if being in an anti Nazi
league got him smeared as a communist, then like can
bring it on. Specifically, as quote was, may I express
my wholehearted desire to cooperate to the utmost of my
ability with Hollywood Anti Nazi League. If this be communism,

(07:09):
count me in. Mhm. Pretty cool, John, Yeah. And basically
the whole pro Nazi press, because there's this whole pro
Nazi press was like, this is a Jewish Communist conspiracy,
which is always funny because anti Semitism either accused the
Jews of being communists or capitalists, depending on which ideology
they want to demonize, and I love how it's like

(07:31):
doesn't even hit a cognitive dissonance in the anti Semitic
mind that like, you're like, what you ever want? I
hate or mad at? Right now? That's what you know
people are doing or whatever, And it's like worth knowing
because when you're like, oh, in anti Nazi legual those
who league dedicated to being mad at like the Germans.
Like in the ninet thirties, if you were a right
wing person in the United States, you were probably a fascist.

(07:53):
You are probably sympathetic to fascism. And there was this
huge pro fascist movement in the US by people who
once the US enters of the war, people immediately drop
off the Some people stay Nazis, but most people are like, Okay,
well we want to be American right wing people, not
you know, our enemy right wing people or whatever. Anyway.

(08:15):
John Ford during World War Two, he joins the military
as a filmmaker. He gets wounded twice filming battles. He
lands at D Day, he films, and he got less
cool as he got older. He goes from fighting against
McCarthy is um to supporting Nixon and Reagan. Later, but
more important, to the Anti Nazi League and more personally
really is actually not more important. It's just personal to me.

(08:37):
My my great grandfather was this tin pan alley songwriter
who used to write songs in the nineteen twenties for
this guy named Eddie Cantor. And Eddie Cantor was like
this big vaudeville singer guy, right, and he gave a
speed Eddie Cantor, not my great whatever great grandfather, great
great grandfather. He gave a speech at the inaugural party.

(08:57):
And I just got really excited whenever I see his name,
because I'm like, oh, maybe my great grand dad was
really cool guy. I don't know about my great granddad.
And I'm not even gonna tell you his name because
Nazis have already worked hard enough to figure out who
my family is anyway. Okay, So they published not that
there's like a through line to the modern world or
anything like that. So they published two papers, the Hollywood

(09:21):
Anti Nazi News and Hollywood Now, which I feel like
Hollywood Now is probably a clever way to name your
paper because it's it's very just like it just makes
it seem like and here's what's happening in the movie industry. Yeah,
totally without any sort of like other objective. Yeah, which

(09:42):
one would you have worked for? Like if you're like,
which one have you put your weight behind? The Hollywood
Anti Nazi news or just Hollywood now both with the
same purpose? Just which every I mean, I I feel
based on the names alone, I would say the first
one because why you know, I like transparency. Yeah, so

(10:06):
the first one has a way more transparent name. I
think I think I would have to you just and
also you get to be like part of Hollywood Anti
Nazi news. You know, all your anti Nazi news about Hollywood. Yep,
read all about it? Yeah, exactly. They had to l
a radio shows, they sponsored lectures and rallies, they organized

(10:28):
boycotts of Nazi products, and they fucked with all the
American Nazis, mostly the German American boond as well as
the Silver Shirts. And they fucked with visiting European Nazis,
at least one of whom stayed with Walt Disney because
Walt Disney was a piece of ship. Oh yeah, and
now let's talk about Walt Disney. A piece of ship.

(10:50):
M a little a little mini reverse, a little bastard. Yeah.
It was like I was like, uh, just a little
mini bastards, just like a little taste, like you know,
gonna start like a tonal shrieking. Are you no? Great?
Just making sure Yep, no you thought about it, you

(11:11):
definitely I didn't think about it. Yeah, yeah, no, I know.
But that's in the same way that like when someone
tells you not to do something, it just do. You
instinctively want to do it, even if it's and then
you realize you don't want to do it anyway. M hm, Disney.
He gives a Nazi propaganda filmmaker tour of his studio
a month after Crystal Knocked while she's there to promote
her Nazi propaganda film. He later claims that he didn't

(11:35):
know like that she was a Nazi or whatever. My
argument is, twy, this is obviously not a lie. Is
that the Anti Nazi League was like boycotting him over
it and making it really clear ahead of time and
doing all of this press being like, don't host the
Nazi lady with her Nazi propaganda, And he's like, oh,
I just well, as an a political filmmaker, I'll just
show you around the space, you know. Um, I don't

(11:57):
know why, Yes, that accent. He does not have that accent.
So a Disney animator the main evidence of Disney as
a Nazi. There's a lot of weird rumors and complicated
things around Disney, but the like main single thing that
I can point to and be like, no, he was.
He was a fucking Nazi. A Disney animator named Art
Babbitt said quote, in the immediate years before we entered

(12:20):
World War Two, there was a small but fiercely loyal
I suppose legal following of the Nazi Party that were
open meetings anyone could attend, and I wanted to see
what was going on myself. On more than one occasion
I observed Walt Disney and his lawyer there, along with
a lot of prominent Nazi afflicted Hollywood personalities. Disney was
going to these meetings all the time. So my argument

(12:41):
with that he was a Nazi is that he went
to Nazi organized You know, it's not hard to connect
those dots. Yeah, because people are like, is a Nazi
because like this or that? And I'm like, no, no,
because he was. Because he went to the naz actively
participating in Nazi meetings, and and there's this thing happening
and I'm kind of curious if you've caught this where

(13:01):
there's like this whole big like backlash. This's like there's
like a Disney Wasn't a Nazi discourse that the Internet
is trying to have. I haven't been paying attention to that.
Why what are they saying? It's like, I think what's
happening is that people are conflating like personal bigotry with
supporting fascism, because basically what people are saying is that
they're like they're like literally listing out all of his

(13:25):
black friends or all of his Jewish friends or whatever,
um and being like and like, it seems to me
that most of his like most of the bigotry that's
expressed in the old Disney films actually is kind of
in line with all of the other bigotry happening in
Hollywood films at the time. Like I think it wasn't
particularly exemplary, I mean, or like particularly stand out ish, right, right.

(13:49):
But but yeah, so people are like, oh, it wasn't
a Nazi because he like didn't have personal bigotry against
Jews necessarily his entire life. But my argument is that
I literally liam not thinking about that one where or
the other because I don't have enough information. I'm just
saying he went to fucking Nazi meetings and he was
like super right wing, so I don't know, it's not

(14:09):
much for me, right and and some of his films
were the last ones to be he was like trying
to be buds of the Nazis, and some of his
films were the last American films to get banned in
Germany during the war, and Go Bowls and all the rest. Uh.
They actually put together a plan to try and figure
out if they could claim that Walt Disney was German
so that they could get it get his films to

(14:31):
be allowed to continue to be played because they liked
his film so much, because they were kind of right wing,
you know. And so they were like put together this
thing about whether or not they could get away with
claiming he was born Walter Distler instead of Walt Disney
and that that's not Disney's fault, like he didn't make
sure Gobels do that. Once the war started, and this
is the other reason that people claimed that he wasn't

(14:53):
a Nazi. He absolutely like the rest of these fucking Nazis.
As soon as the US entered the war against Germany.
He was like, no, no, no, I'm an American right
wing person and so now I'm anti Nazi. He was
just a social conservative capitalist, and he made a whole
bunch of anti Nazi films during the war because everyone
did mm hmm. But very few of the Hollywood studios

(15:18):
were willing to stick their next out in critique fascism
at the time, like very very few foreign films made
up about movie revenue before World War Two. This is
like before America entered the war, basically, and so they
didn't want to rock the boat, right because they're like, well,
we we want the foreign market and we want all
the Nazi controlled areas to still show off movies and

(15:39):
give us money. With one exception, the Warner Brothers, okay,
the most based Hollywood studio of the nineteen thirties. Harry
and Jack Warner were the sons of a Jewish cobbler
who had fled programs in Poland, and they didn't forget
their roots. There's was the first studio to criticize Hitler

(16:01):
in a nineteen thirty three Looney Tunes cartoon called Bosco's
Picture Show, in which Hitler is chasing someone around with
a meat cleaver Um. The person they're chasing around is
is played by someone whose last name is Durante. But
I forgot to write down his first name, Jimmy Jimmy Duranty,
Oh Duranti. Yeah, which is also how my family pronounces

(16:21):
my last name. But I was like, I'm also how
Robert consistently mispronounces your last name. Yes, and so in
a way, I do change, um, my identity year round
because I lived the first eighteen years of my life
is Caitlin Duranty. And then I was like, I hate
the way that sounds Caitlin Durante because that's like the

(16:44):
anglicization of its Duranty. So yeah, okay, which, like I don't.
I mean, Durante is an Italian name, so uh it's yeah,
slightly more correct pronunciation wise to say Durante. But um, anyway,

(17:04):
Jimmy Durranty was a famous uh person in Hollywood at
one time, but no relation. I'm not related to him. Okay,
so he was your great grandfather. He's my husband, that
actually makes sense. He took his name, he took my
name good, Okay, I'm sorry such a thing feminism hello, Yeah, yeah,

(17:29):
he used to be his maiden name was like Jimmy
Jimmy Smith. Yeah, well you all made that film together.
So I made a married a vampire exactly starring the
same actor who plays Shrek. Yeah, whose name is Shrek? Shrek? Okay, yeah,

(17:50):
County Mike Myers? Is that who that is? Mike Myers?
Well he was in that movie something something married an
axe murderer. I used him, that's what you were referring to. Yeah, absolutely,
I actually have seen that movie. Okay. So Warner Brothers
they closed their German offices entirely in nineteen thirty four.

(18:12):
When the Nazis told them to fire all the Jewish employees.
They were like, nope, you get nothing from us ever again.
Funk all of you. Uh. They stopped working with the
Nazi regime. It took five more years. It took till
ninety nine for the other major studios to follow suit,
and and the heads of many of these other major
studios were Jewish too. It's almost like an ethnic heritage

(18:34):
doesn't make you a good or bad person, and instead
it's your own actions that do that. It's almost as
if capitalism really just warps your brain. Yeahs of who
you are and kind of what your background is yeah,
and if you want your brain warped, you can purchase

(18:54):
goods and services um from yes, thank you. I remally
retird on that one, such as the following advertisers who
we support in every way whole with our entire hearts,
our entire golden onion hearts, especially those weird as for
gold that keep popping up. Oh yeah, that nobody should buy. Okay,

(19:21):
but hear me out. If you bury gold, don't do it.
Don't do it cold onions only, okay, if anyone, well, okay,
but if the if the sponsors sent me gold, I'd
probably tell people that, oh, that's the problem with capitalism.
Now I understand you've been capitalism. I got owned by

(19:42):
my need to eat food every day. Here's some ads
and we are back and we are talking about how
MGM Studios, which had a Jewish head that wish had um.
Adolf Zukor said, I don't think Hollywood should deal with

(20:03):
anything but entertainment. The newsreels take care of current events
in the Warner Brothers had to fight anti semitism at
home as well. Hollywood had a self censorship board called
the Production Code Administration, which was led by this anti
Semite named Joseph Breen. And when I say anti semit
I'm not once again not trying to be like subtle here,

(20:25):
because he wasn't very subtle. What he said what's wrong
with Hollywood was all the quote lousy Jews and that
of Jews were Eastern Jews, the scum of the earth.
Oh my goodness, Yes, that's who was in charge. And
then it's funny too, right, because everyone's always like anti Semitic.
Ship's always like the Jews controlling Hollywood and whatever, and
you're like, the fucking Censorship Board was like run by

(20:47):
this guy who whatever. Yeah, regardless of the p c A,
the Warner Brothers went ahead as best they could. In
seven they made a Humphrey Bogart film called Black Legion
about to stick fascism that compared the KKK to the Nazis.
They made a ninety eight version of the Adventures of
Robin Hood that was like really transparently about the need

(21:08):
to fight Nazis M. And then they made a film
that I had never heard of but made a big
fucking we'll talk about what a big deal it was.
They made a film called Confessions of a Nazi Spy.
Either of you ever heard of this, I've not heard
of Maybe I've heard of it, but I know nothing else. Well,

(21:30):
that's what's so interesting to me, is kind of like
the how these things can be like cultural moments, right,
and then not become classics kind of have no legacy
after that. Yeah, Confessions of a Nazi Spy was directed
by a Jewish refugee, and it brings us the Hollywood
Nazi the like, here's a caricature of a shitty fucking Nazi, right,

(21:52):
and this is way before the US was involved in
the war. And it was based on the true story
of an American detective who uncovered Nazi spies in the US.
And since it was a true story, it could kind
of get around pc A censorship barely mhm. The the
Reich did not like this film. The Reich declared it
would ban all films ever made by any of the
actors in the film. Other studios wanted it to not

(22:14):
come out because they were afraid the Nazis would ban
all American films if this movie came out, which eventually
the Nazis did ban all American films. A pc A
official wrote, are we ready to depart from the pleasant
and profitable course of entertainment, to engage in propaganda, to
produce screen portrayals arousing controversy, conflict, racial, religious, and nationalistic antagonism,

(22:35):
and outright human hatred. Yeah, they're saying that about a
film that criticizes fascism and Nazism. That reminds me of
the time when, um, what the fun is that loser's
name d W. Griffith, after making Birth of a Nation,

(22:58):
which was so racist that at the time in nineteen fifteen,
people were like, this is really racist. So when something
when people when like critics and and the general public
in nineteen fifteen thinks something is really racist, you know,
it was very, very racist, and he didn't like. Griffith
didn't like how many people were calling his movie racist

(23:21):
and we're being quote unquote intolerant towards his his movie
that he then made a movie a couple of years
later called Intolerance because he didn't like that people were
so intolerant of his work. Yeah. So anyway, real Nazis
were the anti Nazis all along. I'm so glad that

(23:44):
this is a twentieth century relic that is not a
pattern that we have ever seen. Again mm hmmm, Uh, yeah,
so so the Warner Brothers. They released Confessions of a
Nazi Spy anyway. When asked why they were doing it,
Jack Warner said, the Silver Shirts and the Buddhists, the
two American fascist organizations and the rest of these hoods

(24:05):
are marching in Los Angeles right now. There are high
school kids with swastikas on their sleeves a few crumby
blocks from our studio. Is that what you want in
exchange for some crummy film royalties from Germany? And um good, yeah,
and shout out for just using the word crummy twice
and a very intense yeah. But and there was one

(24:27):
concession that they had to make in order to get
the p c A to release the film at all.
They couldn't outright talk about the fact that the Jews
were the people who are being fucked with the most
by the Nazis. And we'll talk about in a moment
the first film that did center Jews in an anti
Nazi film, but Confessions of a Nazi Spy they received
more than a hundred threatening letters and they have to

(24:48):
hire extra security. They didn't do any publicity for it.
The cast and cruise names were kept secret until like
right before release, and they were hard to recruit cast
and crew in the first place. And it was like
almost entirely made by a German fugees and like committed
anti fascists from the US. M hmmm. And this movie
was controversial. And when I say controversial, I'm going to

(25:09):
quote from an article by Stephen J. Ross. Not everyone
was enamored with the film. Nazi sympathizers in Milwaukee burned
down the local Warner Brothers theater shortly after the movie opened.
Angry citizens and other cities picketed theaters, slashed seats, and
threatened exhibitors. In Poland, anti Semitic audiences hanged several theater
owners in their movie houses for exhibiting the films film

(25:33):
Nazis burned the film everywhere they could exert pressure. Wow,
So people like literally died for showing this anti fascist film,
which is like the stakes that I think sometimes it
gets forgotten about. You know, the film was carried to
its premier in an armored car and all the Chicken
Ship celebrities didn't show up because not many of them did,

(25:55):
but many of the like A list celebrities didn't show
up because they were afraid of being seen as quote political,
and they're like excuse that they came up with MGM
Studios through a birthday party for someone that night, like
a surprise birthday party, like all of a sudden to
give all their stars an excuse to miss it. And
and there's some kind of like one of the most

(26:16):
interesting parallels to me about this as everything in the
world compares to the Spanish Civil War in my head,
which is not true, but you know whatever, my brain
fixates on things. And the Americans who fought against fascism
in the Spanish Civil War were called premature anti fascists,
and they were mistrusted and they had like had trouble,
like they would like later go and sign up for
the army because being like what we fought not not

(26:37):
fascist before and we want to fight them again, and
the army was like holding them at arm's length, being like,
we don't trust you because you're too anti fascist. Is
you were prematurely anti fascist? And this happens to the
filmmakers and ship right. They're now under suspicion because they
were anti fascist before the US government was officially anti fascist.

(26:57):
Mm hmmm. And it was basically seen as as big
of a deal as the birth of the nation, but
from the opposite point of view. A Jewish film producer,
Lou Edelman, wrote to his boss last night the motion picture,
like the concept of the motion picture had a bar mitzvah.
It came of age, it said today, I am a man,

(27:20):
um so big fucking deal. I've never heard of it.
I kind of want to go watch it now, right, Yeah, yeah,
I have no idea if it like holds up like
as like entertainment, but it was fucking important that they
made it. Yeah, I'm I'm curious and like you said that,
the stakes surrounding something like that, yeah, we kind of
we can forget how hot like literally life and death

(27:45):
stakes in some cases. Um, for we're making something like that.
Um wow, Yeah, I'm gonna go check it out. Yeah,
if it's accessible, even I wonder. Yeah, I think it is. Um,
I like didn't specifically look it up to be like
it's It's kind of my plan over the next couple

(28:06):
of nights to watch some of these movies that I
didn't have a chance to watch before I recorded a
podcast about them, because that is the nature of podcasting.
And now you all know I do a lot of research.
I never watched any of the movies that I cover
on the back to cast. That's not true. I watched
them twice, sometimes three times. No, I thought, you just
read the Wikipedia entry out. Yeah, exactly. Okay, let's go

(28:31):
back to the Anti Nazi League, and there's a big
Popular Front group made up of all the various people
were posed to fascism. But they had another There's another
comparison I can make against with the Popular Front of
Spain because the people fighting the Popular Front fighting fascist
in Spain had a problem, and that problem was Stalin,
because Stalin, you know, went around and like started shooting

(28:53):
everyone else who didn't agree with him in the middle
of the war and caused all this terrible ship m
The Hollywood Popular Front also had a problem. You want
to guess what that problem was, um, I would guess that.
I mean, what problems don't they have? Um? I mean

(29:17):
it's probably having something with capitalism and or they, I
don't know, the studio system, something something you tell me, Okay, yeah,
I kind of it was a kind of a terrible
riddle that I'm like, it was Stalin. Their problem was Stalin? Okay,

(29:40):
I get it. Yeah, as the parallels okay because Okay,
So the group was made up of a wide variety
of anti fascists, including even conservative members, and its political
aims were purely anti Nazi, but it was controlled from
behind the scenes by the Communist Party through the Communist
Party of America UH and the American League for Peace

(30:01):
and Democracy, which was controlled by the Soviet Union, which
had the goal of getting the US into a defensive
alliance with the uss ARE in case of Nazi aggression.
So the Hollywood Anti Nazi League was created in that
context in which the USSR wanted Americans to be anti Nazi?
But have you ever heard of the I keep asking

(30:23):
I need to stop asking you questions. Have you ever
heard of? I don't like putting you on the spot
like that. I'm just gonna tell you because if I
have heard of it, I get to feel so freaking cool, like, yeah,
I've heard of it and I've seen it. Try me
and then if I if I haven't, then I exposed
myself as once again a fraud. But I'm willing to
take that risk. Okay, have you ever heard of the

(30:46):
Molotov ribbon? Trop packed? No? And then I burst into tears. Yeah, yeah, Um.
Actually it is literally crying Shrek right now on camera crying.
So on August it's the eve of World War two
and the U s SR decides to be budds with Hitler,

(31:07):
so they sign a treaty called the Molotov Ribbon trup
Packed with Hitler. And it's two things. First, and this
part of public at the time, it's a non aggression pact. Second,
and this part of the secret part of it, the
secret protocol that we find out decades later. It carved
up chunks of Eastern Europe and the Baltic states in
Finland and said, okay, we can invade this, you can

(31:30):
invade that. They just like split up the spoils of
War Um with Nazi Germany. And the most dramatic effects
of this, of course, is that Germany and the USS
are both invaded Poland and then they held like common
parades where the Red Army and the Vyemarkt or whatever
would like march around together and be like we are friends.

(31:51):
You know, people don't like talking about this as much.
And then the USS are conquered tried to conquer Finland,
which gets called the Winter War, and the Finns put
up a surprising resistance and the USSR steals about nine
percent of the country instead of all of the country.
M hm. And you know how the USSR. The the
way that they got the USSR got that packed with

(32:13):
Hitler is Stalin gave an order to quote purge the
Foreign Ministry of Jews in order to be friends with
the Nazis. USSR Nazi relations only fell apart when the
two countries couldn't agree about how to split the spoils
of war. Basically, Um, they were in talks with I

(32:33):
didn't know this ship until fucking way recently, like five
years ago or something, and I've been politically engaged for
a long time. They were in talks with the USSR
to formally join the Access Powers until eventually, at some
point Hitler was like, nah, we're just going to invade
the USSR and take it all. Um. But the USSR
tried to join Hitler basically oops, yeah, exactly. It doesn't

(32:58):
look great in retrospect. The biggest deal, of course, was
how the uss ARE invaded a bunch of places, uh,
and then sent millions of tons of food to Hitler
because there was the Western Powers had a blockade on Germany,
you know, and so they would like send shipped all
the way from the eastern part of Russia. But there's
another thing that mattered at all of this too. All

(33:18):
the communist parties in the West were forced to become
anti anti fascist because now anti fascism so like, so
communist communists in parliament in France, like a few weeks earlier,
had voted unanimously for war against Germany, but then they
were like suddenly against the war and called it imperialist.
It would be imperialist for France to attack Nazi Germany.

(33:40):
Mm hmmm, because the Soviet Union was suddenly friends. Yeah,
I guess there's always a bit of bastards in every
episode about good people. And all the anti fascist organizations
that were just communist front groups got dissolved, or some
times they did worse than dissolve. The Hollywood Anti Nazi

(34:03):
League didn't just dissolve, It joined the American Peace Mobilization,
an organization dedicated to keeping the US from helping Britain
and France in their fight against the fucking Nazis. Okay um,
And how does one thing become the other? So I
think I think what happened was all of the like

(34:24):
regular anti fascists get out of the group, right, because
the group dissolves officially and becomes this other group, and
then all of the people who are there because they
were like communists loyal to the USSR stay and become
anti anti fascists, got it, and they start fighting against
military recruitment until of course the Nazis invade the USSR,

(34:47):
and then they became the American People's Mobilization and then
they tried to get the US into the war. And
then after the war, during the Cold War, they decide
now they're pacifists and they become the National Committee to
Win the Peace. Mm hmmm, which is I guess, like
my takeaway from this is it's cool to be coalition
with other anti fascists, but maybe don't trust the people
who are only into it for some weird, other shady reason. Yeah, right,

(35:10):
And that's why again, transparency is nice. You gotta have
these conversations similar to the conversation that what was his name,
Fritz Lang should have had with his wife about how
she was a Nazi. Um, you know, maybe be like, hey,
why are you in this group? Totally? You pick out

(35:32):
your friends based on that? Are you trying to say
that Fritz Lang could have become a stand up comedian
with my wife jokes. Yes, he would be like, get
a load of my wife, she's a Nazi. Um, And
that's and that's a perfect joke that I just wrote.

(35:53):
Believe it or not. Yeah, Okay, um, it's part of
Shrek for whatever, whatever your next movie is after Shrek.
I don't know how many Shreks there are. There's um,
I've started in four Shreks. This is Shrek five exactly. Okay,
hence hence forth coming what I my brain. It's not

(36:18):
the best today, Okay. Well, I will say that the
liberal ish, the not actual anti Nazis in Hollywood, they
did come together in a not controlled by Stalin way um,
and they pushed for progressive themes in film during the
war and after the war, and most famous among these
is the progressive Orson Wells. But we've got to talk

(36:40):
more about the lead up to the war. Megan Feenie,
in an article for the site and Movie, described Hollywood
once the US was involved in the war and said
the war represented a pivotal moment in Hollywood history, one
in which the US film industry came to take itself
seriously as a significant socio political force. Hollywood's left liberal
filmmakers ascended during the war, and in close collaboration with

(37:01):
the Roosevelt administration, used fascism as a foil to redefine
the so called American War on their own terms, emphasizing
popular democracy, civil liberties, religious tolerance, ethnic pluralism, and liberal internationalism.
And so the anti war movies that were happening during
the war weren't just we hate the Nazis from like
kind of a right wing point of view. They were

(37:21):
being made by the people who are like mostly being
made by the people who are the most versed in
being actually anti Nazi, being leftists, you know. And this
is in contrast to how later during the Cold War,
starting the late forties, conservatives take control of Hollywood and
bring Hollywood back to its like so called a political
past of being conservative, and you get the Red Scare,

(37:44):
you get the Hollywood blacklist, um and the at this point,
at that point, the the like leftists in Hollywood or
even just the like anti censorship people in Hollywood kind
of pivot to just being First Amendment groups. Instead of
being like fighting for liberal ideas in Hollywood, they're literally
fighting for like please just let us have fucking free speech,
what the fuck right? And unfortunately, one of our previous heroes,

(38:09):
the Warner brother, Jack Warner, testified to the House of
on American Activities and fired the co writer of Confessions
of a Nazi Spy because that guy might have been
like secretly communist or whatever the fuck. But back to
the golden age of anti fascist filmmaking also known as
World War Two. I love accidentally saying positive things about

(38:30):
one of the worst things. Okay, anyway, it's this anti
fascist era that gives us the Nazis the ultimate villain um,
and it also gives us the unfortunate like good war
narrative and the idea that like America is the savior
of humanity. And then I found it even more of
disturbing ship that even the lefties and liberals were doing
at this time, or at least some of them were.

(38:52):
So you know how like Nazis are like the ultimate
villain right in Hollywood, they didn't start out that way,
um because of racism. More films with Nazis, like films
with Nazis started off before the war like really got
in where like usually the Nazis could be like redeemed

(39:12):
right and like a lot of like Nazi collaborators like
come around to see the light. The Japanese, however, were
presented as monsters, and the Japanese were to be fought
in a similar way to other like classic monsters of
the screen, the indigenous people of North America, who the
US was, you know, continuing it's war of genocide and
expension against So basically everyone can twist anti fascism into

(39:36):
obnoxious propagandistic ends to do really bad things. That's my
that's actually turned into more of a bastard's episode than
I thought. Okay, actually that we're about to get into
the most complicated of them all. I'm ready, okay. And
the lead up to this anti fascist film era, you
get the Warner Brothers being pretty consistently cool, and a
few more people start coming on board. You've got a

(39:57):
producer Walter Wanger, who puts hen I Fonda in the
Spanish Civil War movie in ninety eight called Blockade, and
gets Alfred Hitchcock to make an anti fascist film in
nineteen forty called Foreign Correspondent. Hitchcock made more movies during
the war. And then you get Charlie fucking Chaplin, Oh
the Great Dictator. Yeah, And and Charlie Chaplin. He gets both.

(40:22):
Charlie fucking Chaplin A isn't like hell yeah because of
some of the interesting shit he did, and he gets
Charlie fucking Chaplin because what the funk is wrong with
this guy? What the funk is wrong with this guy?
He did some bad things. He did do some bad things.
We're gonna talk about some of them, and if you
know more of them, please um. Charlie Chaplin is maybe
the most dramatic, rags richest entertainment story in history, not

(40:44):
just filmmaking, just fucking all over. He was born four
days before Hitler. A lot of people like make weird
comparisons about the fact that he's like just like Hitler
because he was the same age and also had a
toothbrush mustache. He was born in April sixteen nine. He
grew up dirt fucking poor in South London to a

(41:05):
probably Roma family in a community of like sex workers
and buskers and like just like down and out folks
coming up with the creative means by which to survive.
He might have been born in Avardo, the the wagons
that Roma folks would would have and he grew up
more or less orphaned. And he's not even fucking seven

(41:25):
years old when he's like clog dancing on the streets
outside bars for money. And you know what he could
have done with that money, Caitlin Durante. Um, yeah, I
can imagine a few things. But why don't you know? Yeah, yeah,
he could have purchased products and services. Oh I see
what you were doing. Yeah yeah, yeah, no, sorry, Um,

(41:49):
products and services, much like those that support the show,
the concept of potatoes are perennial sponsor. Everyone should well know,
some people should eat potatoes and some people shouldn't, but
people should do whatever they want. Food. Food is good. Okay,
here's some ads, and we are back, and we're talking

(42:10):
about Charlie Chaplin. Uh. He's clogged dancing on the streets
for money. He gets discovered and on the streets he
gets given a job of the theater troop. At age seven,
he learns physical comedy. He moves to America to make
films in the nineteen tens, and by age six he's
maybe the most famous man in the world. People refer

(42:30):
to it as like the world was suffering from chaplainitis. Um.
The He's like the symbol of popular culture. And there's
two stories to tell about Chaplin because and they're fucking
message to resolve with each other. And I think that
learning how to not necessarily resolve with these with each other,
but understand them both, I think it's like crucial. Sure,
I'm gonna start with the bad story, um, because before

(42:52):
I say cool about a guy, I want to say
he sucks. He he's a fucking monster. He is an
early exam bull of why Hollywood is a misogynist cesspool
run by fucking predators. Yeah, he bragged to have slept
with two thousand women in his lifetime. He never trusted women.
He constantly married children. He always waited until they were

(43:14):
sixteen to marry them. His first wife, Mildred Harris, was
sixteen when they got married. The stories that she feigned
pregnancy to get married, but I don't know that's his story,
and I don't fucking trust anything he has to say. Um.
And once they got married, she wound up institutionalized for weeks,
and when she divorced him, she cited cruelty as the

(43:35):
reason for the divorce. He was a literal groomer. His
second wife, Leta Gray, was twelve. When they met at sixteen,
he started assaulting her, then married her while she was
pregnant to avoid statutory rape charges. Um. He tried to
pressure her into an abortion, but uh, and he also

(43:55):
and she said no to that. And then so he
tried to pick a random man her age to marry her,
to take the and then take care of the kid,
and offered like the man like two hundred thousand dollars
to do this, oh my god, m but she turned
that down as well. So he married her and called
her a little horror and told her to kill herself
because Charlie Chaplin is the fucking worst. She was around

(44:16):
nineteen when he divorced her. His next wife was a
seventeen year old who he claims told him that she
was twenty two. His final wife was thirty six years
younger than him. He was fifty four, she was eighteen.
She was terrified of him and regularly locked herself in
her room to get away from him. Ah. He had

(44:36):
tons of children. He was constantly cruel to all of them.
He got sued over parentage, lost that suit in six
He described his ideal woman as I am not exactly
in love with her, but she is entirely in love
with me. Okay, so he's in narcissist. Yeah. On top

(44:56):
of all that, I mean, well, yeah, funk that guy.
Yeah that was what I knew. I I didn't even
know most of those details. I just knew that he
was a um, sexual predator, slash child rapists. Yeah, yep,
he is absolutely those things. Well, fortunately now he's just
dead at a high school teacher who was obsessed with him,

(45:19):
and like, we had to watch so many of the films,
and I was just like, just like without knowing any
of this, it's just like the the unbelievable amount of
red flags you see even in his work, you know
what I mean. Yeah. I like the way that it's
been a long time since I watched Chaplin films. I
used to watch them a lot when I was younger.

(45:39):
Um yeah, no, it's it's um. Now I'm going to
tell you about anti fascism and film. Please please tell
us magpie. Yeah, okay, So the other story about Charlie
Chaplin is it a story about an anti fascist filmmaker

(46:00):
who risks his entire career, who tanks his entire career
two try and stop the Nazis. In this story, m
It is his unshakable self confidence that one might call
narcissism that allowed him to survive on the streets of
Victorian London as a fucking like seven year old orphan.
You know. Um. It offered him the self confidence, and

(46:22):
he offered that self confidence to his viewers into the world.
He described how he survived in his youth by the
exuberance that comes from utter confidence in yourself. Without it,
you go down in defeat. And his main character, the
Little Tramp. No matter what happens, he picks himself up
and he trots off jauntily into the sunset. It's also
the story of a person with an unshakable political moral

(46:45):
compass with the largest blind spot the world has ever seen,
an unshakable moral compass when it's applied on a geopolitical
level instead of an interpersonal level. UH. In the nineteen thirties,
he did radio broadcast supporting the New Deal and his
first talkie, his first non silent movie. Um. He was
like one of the last people to want to switch

(47:05):
over to two talkies. Was The Great Dictator in and
it came out before the US entered the war. His
Little Tramp character is modified slightly into a Jewish barber,
and he also plays a like really obvious Hitler clone.
And it's the first and this is the first time
that a Hollywood film acknowledges that the Nazis were specifically
after the Jews. And I think it's interesting to me

(47:27):
that also the fact that he was roma like this
is something that you know affects him right, right, and
it it brings us one of the greatest moments in
political Hollywood history. At the end of the film, the
Jewish barber is mistaken for the Dictator and he goes
up and he gives a speech, and the film gets
rid of the fourth wall, much as Breckt and all

(47:49):
the other people would have liked, right and specifically as
a way to counter propaganda, look directly at the camera
and talk. Which is interesting because I feel like, now,
if you did that, it would kind of read as propagandistick,
and like this speech that he gives is kind of propagandistic,
but by breaking the fourth wallet ties into this art
movement at the time of using that to get people
to question ship. So the Jewish barber goes up pretending

(48:11):
to be the dictator and he gives a speech about
how we should destroy national borders, How we should never
listen to despots, How soldiers should fight for democracy and
against dictatorship. And I'm gonna I'm gonna read part of it.
I don't want to rule or conquer anyone. I should
like to help everyone if possible. Jew, gentile, black, man white.
We all want to help one another. Human beings are

(48:32):
like that. We want to live by each other's happiness,
not for each by each other's misery. We don't want
to hate and despise one another. In this world. There
is room for everyone, and the good Earth is rich
and can provide for everyone. The way of life can
be free and beautiful. But we have lost the way.
Greed has poisoned men's souls, has barricaded the world with hate,
has goose stepped us into misery and bloodshed. We have

(48:53):
developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in. Machinery gives abundance.
That gives abundance has left us in want are not
Ledge has made a cynical our, cleverness hard and unkind.
We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery,
we need humanity more than cleverness. We need kindness and gentleness.
Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will
be lost, and he just goes on in this like

(49:15):
complete not what people are sucking doing in movies at
the time, m hm. And he spent two years making
The Great Dictator, and all the while the English and
American censors because England isn't at war at the start.
England isn't at war with Nazi Germany either, and they're like,
don't fucking make this movie. We're at peace with Hitler.
You can't make fun of Hitler. And he basically is like,

(49:38):
all right, well, I'm going to hire all the movie
halls myself. I'm the most famous man in the world,
and I'm going to fucking make this anti Nazi film mhm,
because I fucking hate Hitler. And before he finishes, a
war was on and France was conquered and England was
at war with Germany and the US hadn't entered the
war yet. It winds up his highest grossing film to

(50:00):
that date, but it's controversial. A lot of the critics
at the last speech was just him declaring communism, which
is funny because it's a speech about democracy, like literally
used the word democracy over and over again. M hmm.
And the press starts to hate him at this point,
and he he literally tanks his career with this. All
of his films afterwards played to his existing fan base,
but failed to attract new audiences because the press spence

(50:23):
the rest of his life attacking him. Sometimes they the
press gets it right, and they attack him for being
a fucking child, raping piece of shit, fucking absolute monster. Yeah,
you will be surprised to know that. Mostly they spend
all of their time calling him a communist, which he wasn't,
but even if he was, you know, right, and his

(50:46):
film start being picketed after the Great Dictator and some
other filmmakers love the speech. At least one director puts
the whole text into like his Christmas card that year,
which is like the most like lefty Hollywood thing I
can imagine someone doing. He reads it to about sixty
million people on the radio. Um. But while he's reading it,

(51:06):
he's in a hall and Nazis, American Nazis in the
audience are like jeering him and coughing really loudly and
trying to disrupt the whole thing. And he also in
his autobiography, he wrote about the film, quote, had I
known the actual horrors of the German concentration camps. I
could not have made the Great Dictator. I could not
have made fun of the homicidal insanity of the Nazis. However,

(51:28):
I was determined to ridicule their mystic builge about a
pure blooded race. And uh, it seems like you can
you can react as this, like tension or weirdness, like
I'm just over here processing. I'm like, still, no, keep

(51:48):
going and I'm still collecting my thoughts. He doesn't stop
his anti Nazi stuff with just making a film. He
fox up his whole career by going out on a
limb over politics. Time and time again, he gives speeches
about how America needs to help angle and open up
a second front against the war. While the Nazis were
busy fighting in the USSR. He talked with Roosevelt and
with previous presidents, anyone who would listen about why the

(52:08):
US needed to join the war and ally themselves with
England and Russia. Um, and he makes no bones about
being like, yes, and Russia. I don't care that they're communists, right, Um,
I hate Nazis. In the middle of his autobiography, while
talking about the speeches, he was giving he like, and
all the flat users he got. He stops and then
spends like a paragraph talking about the tits of some

(52:30):
lady that he saw, because he's a piece of ship.
There's no other um. He gets labeled a communist, which
he denies his entire life because he wasn't a communist.
He called himself two things instead. This part makes me sad.
He called himself a peacemonger, and he called himself an anarchist,
and I don't want him. In ninety seven, he put

(52:52):
out A King in New York, and he's playing a
king and his own ten year old son plays a
kid who choose choose him out about how he old
giant corporations are and how national borders is like shitty,
and the whole thing is this anti McCarthy film. In
the same year he says he's an anarchist. He says,
as for politics, I'm an anarchist. I hate governments and
rules and fetters. Can't stand caged animals. People must be free,

(53:15):
except obviously not except teenage the women he was married to. Yeah,
the girl little girls he was married to, who are
hiding in their rooms from yet. Yeah. So he wasn't
American born, And one time in nineteen fifty two, while
he was out of the country, the U S sort
of doesn't invite him back because he's a filthy communist.
They review provoke his re entry permit and he moves

(53:37):
to Switzerland. Not you came here and sexually assaulted um
uncountable numbers of people, But you are a communist even
though you're not um. And this should be a story
about a Roma born anarchist filmaker makes himself into the
greatest star in the world, gambles at all the pressure
the US government public into going to war against Nazi empire,
and instead it's a story about gross fucking vanny ripped

(53:57):
teenagers who went to parties and his of entertaining people
at parties was to mimic a woman having an orgasm. Um,
So fuck you Charlie Chaplin for fucking all that up.
When Chaplin died, some grave robbers stole his body and
they held it for ransom. They called up one of
his ex wives and I was like, we've got Chaplin.

(54:19):
She says, so what and hangs up the phone. There
should be a whole episode of your podcast on just that.
And even yeah, yeah, so what click click I love
that I see And and Marlon Brando described Charlie Chaplin

(54:42):
as the most sadistic man I have ever met. Alright Brando,
alright Brando, And this is this is not how I
usually end an episode. Uh That's what I've got about it,
Like fast something and left is him that flows through filmmaking.
So what we've learned here today is that Shrek, uh,

(55:05):
not the ogre with the docky friend, but Max Shrek,
as far as we know, it wasn't a real life
monster slash uh predatory vampire literally like but um, yeah,
there's I mean, I'm glad there were um people I

(55:27):
never quite understand. I don't know, I've complicated feelings about
this because on one hand, Hollywood and many many of
not most film industries around the world are I mean,
they're all for sure capitalist, and they are you know,
priority number one is to make entertainment. Is you know,

(55:51):
to entertain and some of that. But but I think
a lot of people conflate the entertainment has to be
completely escapist and cannot also be informative or you know,
getting behind a particular movement or like political ideology or

(56:11):
like I don't know the people who are like, no,
entertainment should just be strictly entertainment all the time and
not anything that has any sort of like political message.
I don't trust those people because while a lot of
the entertainment I like is very strictly you know, like silly, mindless,

(56:32):
escapist media, a lot of it is also very political
or like you know, has some kind of message that
could be perceived as political. So I anyone who's like
entertainment should never be political. I don't. Again, I don't.

(56:53):
I just don't agree. So for the people who are
willing to with their platform arm and with their art
form and entertainment also push a political agenda, especially for
that political agenda is anti fascist. Um that's rock and roll.
So good for them, and fuck Charlie Chaplin the end

(57:19):
my tirade. Yeah yeah, Caitlin, do you have anything you
would like to plug? Um give hey speaking of anti
fascist media, the Bechtel cast is anti fascists. Yeah right, um?
And uh not only that, Jamie and I are um

(57:44):
good people who in our private lives are still good
and not um scary or just I co sign for
Jamie and Okay, thank you so much, really good, really

(58:05):
really good friends to me. Yeah, I've got I've got receipts.
Good of a person I am. I'm kidding. Cas talked
to me while I cried before okay forever, Um, Yeah,
I I believe um to quote Paddington to Okay, if

(58:30):
we are kind and polite, the world will be right.
And I behave that way in my public life and
in my private life. Excuse me, someone um who has
something to prove, had a very loud engine that just
drove by. Anyway, I can be followed, like what would
I say? You can follow me on social media at

(58:55):
Caitlin Darante on Twitter and Instagram. Hey, if you want
to follow me on TikTok, I have exactly two posts
on there and they're both Titanic related. Um. So really
just filling out the trifecta of my personality. We've got Titanic,
Paddington and now are are are So I'm so glad
we filled that out to a trifecta. As as was

(59:18):
stated earlier, the triangle is the strongest shape that might
have been in the first episode, but I was stated
on the record. It's on the record and you can
you cannot remove it. So what am I saying? Um,
and listen to the Bechtel Cast please. Oh that's where
this all started. And we are publicly and privately anti

(59:40):
fascist on the Bechtel Cast. It's a it's a podcast
about movies and examining those movies from an intersectional feminist lens.
And uh, that's yeah, that's it. That's so Wait, which
what did you do? We did nine to five and

(01:00:06):
um and once again the Shrek two episode bang Banger? Yeah,
when are you gonna do noes for ough to Oh?
Do you want to come on for it? Because yeah,
I'll re watching us for a trip. What if it
doesn't hold up, I'll be so disappointed. I'll be like
I went through all this work to be like, yeah,
this guy rules, and then I'm gonna be like this

(01:00:29):
portrayal is different. I mean, actually, I don't. It doesn't
make someone a bad person if they played it. I'm
pretty sure he praised on women. I think that's this
thing in the in the movie is kind of the
whole thing about vampire Loure. He's actually just playing Charlie
Chaplin in it. I think, dude, Charlie Chaplin real life vampire,

(01:00:49):
and you know, listeners stay tuned. After we forced to
watch the Twilight series find out she's Team Edward or
team Jacob. I'm team Charlie Swan. Charlie, Charlie, Charlie Swan.
Oh oh, okay, good to know Bella. Bella's dad. He's

(01:01:13):
a cop. He is a cop. Never mind, never mind,
I forgot. It was like I was like, Charlie, Sorry, Charlie,
A cab includes you. There's truly no one on team
Anna Kendrick and wonderful in those films. Um, Margaret, you

(01:01:34):
have a book that's out that people can purchase, and
they can see you on book tour, which they can
find from your Instagram at Margaret Killjoy. Is that's true?
That is correct? I am also a good person, probably
I hope to be. You are aspiring good person. Yeah,
and you can also check me out. I'm kidding. You

(01:01:56):
can find me on the back deel cast. I will
be talking about no Ferato. This is is literally the
whole thing was a long con to get myself back
on back dollcast. And also, um, we'd love to hide
back anytime. We Are the Best, which is a movie
about me and Jamie and Caitlin when we started a
punk band as teenagers in Sweden. Mhm, it's a biopic

(01:02:17):
about us. Um that we actually directed ourselves and this
is a funny joke that I am making and it's
really good to point that out. Um. And you can
follow Sophie on the internet at rub Salted can find me,
you can. You can find me on Twitter. Sometimes you
can't find me on Instagram because they banned my account
all the time, but you can't find me. It happens often.

(01:02:42):
But you can't find me on Twitter at Why Underscore
Sophie Underscore Why. And you can follow at cool Zone
Media at fool zone Media. Is that correct, Margaret, I
do it? I think so. I wasn't paying enough attention
to the specifics cool I mean, if you're not paying attention,
I guess the episode has to be over. What it's over? Oh?

(01:03:04):
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