BONE-CHILLING BRYAN KOHBERGER DETAILS EMERGE/ Best of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, bone chilling Brian Coburger details emerge.
I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for
being with us.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Bombshell, a new tell old book reveals a bone chilling
theory on Idaho murder suspect Brian Coburger. Author Howard Bloom
joins Crime Stories for an exclusive interview.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Howard Bloom is joining us right now from Manhattan along
with an all star panel to dissect what we know
and what we are learning from Howard Bloom, you know,
I have poured over every document, every search warrant, every return,
every witness statement that I could get my mints on.
I have flown to Idaho, to Moscow, Idaho in the

(00:51):
midst of winter and trows through the snow to look
at the scene as best as I could to drive
the route I believe, yeah, good times freezing, then got
in an suv at night in the pitch dark at
the time I believe Brian Coberger left that crime scene

(01:14):
and started his securitiest route ah the word hours drive
to his apartment at nearby Washington State University of Pullman,
which should have been about an eight minute drive, and
somewhere along the way, he turns a cell phone by
con that said, after all that, I still learned so
much from reading Howard Bloom's book The Name when the

(01:41):
Night Comes Falling a Requiem for the Idaho student murders. Wow,
even the title made me stop and in the midst
of everything we all do in regular life, you know, working,
your children, your cat, dog.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
Your mom.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
I managed to finish this book in one day. I
practically could not put it down. I had it in
two forms. I printed out what I had and had
it on my iPad so I could look at it
no matter where I was. Howard Bloom, It's amazing you
had me sitting in the Costco parking lot in the
heat reading your book, trying to get to the next

(02:25):
chapter before I came back home.

Speaker 4 (02:27):
Well, I appreciate that. I'm very kind.

Speaker 5 (02:29):
You're sitting in a room as an author, and you
wonder if anyone will read what you write, meant to
hear someone talk about it so graciously. I'm very plattered,
So thank you.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
Well, I've never been accused of being kind before, so
I will take that with a box of salt. I
want to get right to it. There's so much in
your book. I had to take copious notes, so I'll.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
Just start at the beginning.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
It was an amazing intro, and I was struck by
the fact that you start your book from Coburger's father's.

Speaker 3 (02:58):
Point of view.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
And what I learned about his father really touched my heart.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
How he never got to go to college.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
And he was so proud of Brian Coburger and was
already referring to him as doctor Coburger amongst his coworkers.
And it reminded me so much, howard of my father,
how he didn't get we're first generation college and when
I got through law school, in his mind, it was

(03:31):
the most amazing thing ever, so proud. Right now, here's
my question with that lead up. Almost at the beginning,
his father and his family, Coburger's family suspected him of
being the killer.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
I found that just.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
I was dubstruck because you know, when I read about
a crime, I don't immediately think, oh, my son did that.
In fact, I've never thought that. Tell me you're thinking,
and why you say that.

Speaker 4 (04:03):
Michael Koberger makes this trip out to see his son,
to make the ride back with him. You know, this
is a twenty eight year old man, and his father
is worried about him. He's making this trip, it's fatiguing,
it's expensive, but he's worried about his son. He's sitting
next to him in this car, shoulder to shoulder. He

(04:24):
knows the police are looking for a wife handed. And
one of the first things he realizes when he meets
his son is that his son's mood is volatile. That's
his first sign that Brian is in a state. He
goes out to meet his son in Washington State, and
he doesn't know which Brian he's goying to encounter, but

(04:45):
that's his first sign. And he begins to see has
the mood change and become deeper and more acerbic. He
begins to wonder, Oh, my gosh, he begins to think
the unthinkable. He begins to consider that his son could
in fact be a murderer. And all this is building
building in his mind, and he's afraid to go there,

(05:06):
as any father would, but he's getting these clueses if
you were following footsteps in the snow, and the footsteps
are becoming bloodier and bloodier, and he now realizes could
this really be true? And then all of a sudden,
they're driving along in Indiana and they see police sirens
in the back of the car, has to pull over,
and he begins to feel what is going to happen next?

Speaker 1 (05:29):
Well, guys with me, Howard Bloom, who has literally written
the book the name of the book, when the Night
Comes Falling a Requiem for the Idaho student murders, And
I have learned so much more than way the public,
have learned more than my sources have told me, by

(05:49):
exhaustive research by Howard Bloom.

Speaker 3 (05:52):
You're looking right at him, Howard.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
You stated that these aren't your words, that you just
covered this from what Coiberger's father stated to other people.
What did he state about immediately suspecting here's his son
was the killer.

Speaker 4 (06:12):
He went out to Idaho Washington State at the beginning
with suspicions. You have to remember that, Michael, this is
not his first trip out there. He even took his
son out on the first trip in August when his
from was just registering for school. He had real concerns
about his son. Some was a former heroin attic, his

(06:35):
son had psychological problems. At the same time, he wanted
to believe, against gold hope that his son was changing,
that his son had reinvented himself. He had come been
a mediocre student and now he was in an excellent
graduate program for criminology. And Michael wanted to believe that
his son was going to get a PhD. He was

(06:56):
going to be my doctor, Brian Coberger, and yet at
the same time, in the back of his mind he
was thinking the unthinkable. And then things just fall into place.
There was a shooting at just blocks from where Brian
lived as they were making this trip across country. A man,

(07:19):
a former veteran, when berserk and took hostages in a
student housing and a slat team had to come in
and they killed him. And Michael Colberger, as he told
people who spoke with me, began to feel that there
was something just wrong in this part of the world.
There were evil forces. That's how he put it at work.
And his son was you know what.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
I've read a lot and investigated a lot about the
family dynamics of Brian Coburger.

Speaker 3 (07:49):
Listen.

Speaker 6 (07:50):
Brian Coberger's family members are concerned about Brian's behavior prior
to his arrest. Author Howard Bloom says one of Coberger's
sisters confronts their father about the possibility that Brian Coberger
is involved in the Moscow murders, but Michael Coberger apparently
brushes off their concerns. Bloom says Michael Coberger is on
edge when he picks up his son to drive back
from Washington to Pennsylvania, claiming the senior Coburger has seen

(08:11):
the headlines. He knows four students are killed twelve miles
from his son's house, and according to Bloom, Michael Coberger
knows what a troubled son he has.

Speaker 3 (08:19):
Well, you know, joining me an all star panel.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
In addition to this incredible author Howard Bloom Howard, I
noticed that one of the points of contention was about
the route. And when I was driving that route from
the King Road murder scene back to his apartment in Pullman.
At Pullman, I was wondering why he did that, Why

(08:43):
he drove an hour in the middle of the night.
And I'm sure you know there's no street lights, it's
incres pitched black, and you only ran off the road
a couple of times when a semi would come by.

Speaker 3 (08:54):
But he basically did the same thing with his dad.

Speaker 1 (08:58):
The dad flies out, does a quick turnaround, he's exhausted,
he gets in the launcher with his son and the
Sun refuses to go the direct and much shorter route.
Do you think that had anything to do with Coburger
believing he was being followed or monitored.

Speaker 4 (09:16):
I think Coburger, being a criminology student, was trying to
take precautions at this point. I don't think he had
any belief or any knowledge that he was being followed. However,
he was trying to be circumspecced. He was trying to
be one step smarter than the authorities.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
Again, in addition to Howard Bloom now preeminent author, an
All Star panel and I want to go out to
Chris McDonough joining us, the director of the Cold Case Foundation,
former homicide detective, host on the Interview Room on YouTube, who,
like me, like Howard, has seen the evidence, has walked the.

Speaker 3 (09:57):
Scene, very familiar with the air.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yet, Chris mcdona, You've had a lot of homicide cases
and very often family members know their son is a killer, but.

Speaker 3 (10:08):
They will never admit it.

Speaker 1 (10:11):
And I'm thinking about Coburger's dad, who knew he had
suspicious at the beginning, his son was a quadruple killer.

Speaker 7 (10:18):
Yeah, and Nancy, I think what happens is write that
parental you know, tendency kicks in a relationship to they
want to believe it, but they don't necessarily want.

Speaker 4 (10:29):
To believe it.

Speaker 7 (10:30):
And so it's kind of a you know, a tug
and pull from a parental physician.

Speaker 4 (10:35):
However, in this particular case, it's obvious.

Speaker 7 (10:39):
Dad had his radar was way up and had taken
that trip to go out and pick up his son.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
Well, you know, think about it, Chris, and let me
throw this to doctor Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrists joining us
Angela Arnold MD dot com.

Speaker 3 (10:54):
Have you ever seen parents at.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
Tiptoe around their child all the time that they're just
waiting for an exploit? And when I was reading the
first chapter in Howard's book, When the Night Comes.

Speaker 3 (11:06):
Falling, you could feel the tension of the.

Speaker 1 (11:09):
Father in the car with Coburger on this long drive,
just waiting for an explosion. But we got to keep
in mind the dad, Michael Coburger, has spent his whole
life trying to prop up support help Brian Coburger, so
he knew it was like walking through a minefield. Anything

(11:30):
could make him explode. And when Coburger insisted on this
secuitous route, which took hours and hours longer than I
direct route. He went, okay, fine, you're the boss. Those
are the words the father used to Coburger.

Speaker 8 (11:43):
Well, sure, because Nancy, the last thing he was going
to do was confront this guy. Because I have to
wonder if the father, if the father knew all of this.
Was the father a little bit terrified of what could
set Brian off, and possibly was the father's life in
danger at the point, because apparently Brian was agitated at
this time. I wonder if the circuitous route had anything

(12:06):
to do with some sort of OCD kind of disorder
that this guy has.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
Howard bloom You also described Brian Koberger his Heroin habit,
how he got into Heroin and when he managed to
kick Heroin after his father turned him in for stealing
the sister's phone and he had to go into some
sort of a rehabit treatment to get his life straight.
He kicked Heroin and decided his body was a temple,

(12:36):
and that is when he became a vegetarian. And I
had wondered where that started, because now he's demanding certain
types of meals behind bars and he's getting them. And
I remember an anecdote where the family couldn't cook with
certain pots and pants because they had once cooked meat.

Speaker 3 (12:53):
I'm working up to it.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
You revealed that Coburger had two types of plasticery after
he loses one hundred pounds.

Speaker 3 (13:04):
What were they?

Speaker 4 (13:05):
Brian Coberg is intent and this is the admirable part
of him. He's trying to reinvent himself. He comes out
of this depressing, hard scrabble existence, a family with two bankruptcies.
He's going to hard scrabble high school. His father is
a janitor at the high school. He's sort of embarrassed
by that. He becomes a heroin addict and yet, to

(13:28):
his credit, he works himself out of this. He then
wants to he's trying to approach girls at high school.
They're ignoring him. He loses the weight and he still
has this sort of flesh that's going over his midsection,
and it's just not the sort of guy he wants
to be. He wants to be a player, he wants

(13:49):
to be one of the cool guys, and he thinks,
so he has this surgery. These two surgeries are covered
by insurance, and he reinvents himself. He's in good shape,
as you can see him in the photographs. He works out,
he does martial arts, and he still tries to become
the man he wants to be.

Speaker 3 (14:08):
The plastic surgeries.

Speaker 4 (14:10):
He has these two plastic surgeries to get over his midsection.
So there's not this sort of envelope.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
Powered you're so polite, Okay, you outline it in your book.
He had two surgeries, one of them being an abdominoplasty
and the other you know what they're long. Let me
rephrase list. You described two plastic surgeries that Brian Koberger has.
Both of them, I believe were a were related to

(14:38):
removing flaps of skin left over from the one hundred
plus pound weight loss, a flap of skin and tissue
that went down over his private parts and his lower stomach.
He wanted to get rid of that, and when he
did get rid of that through plastic surgery, he had

(14:59):
a serious body is the.

Speaker 3 (15:01):
Way I take it from your book is that what happened.

Speaker 4 (15:04):
That's exactly what happened. He had this vision that he
would become a new Brian Coburger, and the tragedy is
he almost succeeded. He gets out to Washington State a
new man and he's trying to live a new life,
and yet he's pulled back in to what he always is.

(15:25):
To his ass and side believe.

Speaker 6 (15:27):
Brian Coberger allegedly enters the home and walks past the
first rooms he sees coming into the Moscow, Idaho house,
and goes straight up a narrow staircase and turns directly
into the room of his target, Madison Mogan. Author Howard
Bloom says investigators believe Matti Mogan is the target and
her best friend Kaylegan's office is killed because she's in
the room with Mogan.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
Did Brian Cooberger's parents suspect their son? An explosive new
book suggests family knew more than they ever let on
about their troubled son. Author Howard Bloom tells us more.

Speaker 1 (16:00):
Guys joining me is the author Howard Bloom, author of
When the Night Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho
student murders.

Speaker 3 (16:08):
Howard Bloom has gone where many have.

Speaker 1 (16:11):
Not tediously investigating everything about this case, and the book
is full of revelations. We were just describing how Coberger's
own family thought at the get go, before he was
ever named a suspect or even a pay person. Of
interest that he committed the quadruple murders. And in this vein,

(16:32):
can you imagine Coburger's father, so proud of his son
getting his PhD, flies out to Washington to drive Coburger
back home to the Poconos area for Thanksgiving. And he's
sitting there for all these hours in this white Elantra,
which of course he knows has been named in the case,

(16:55):
and looking over at his son who was acting more
and more. Alla tile, But I want to move on
to the next point.

Speaker 3 (17:02):
Listen.

Speaker 6 (17:03):
In a shocking revelation, author Howard Bloom claims Brian Coberger
is not a random spree killer. He had one target
in mind the night he allegedly killed four college students
in their home off campus in Moscow, Idaho. Bloom says
investigators believe in a non targeted attack, the killer would
have stopped at the first door inside the house. It
would have been instinctive to go into the first rooms
after gaining entry, But that isn't what happened. Investigators point

(17:25):
to the two surviving roommates, Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk,
as proof Coburger is after a specific target.

Speaker 1 (17:31):
You know, you really back your theory up with a
lot of facts and the way they're laid out it
makes perfect sense.

Speaker 3 (17:41):
But all along it has been believed, it has been.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
Accepted that Killy Goldsolves was the target, the original target,
and the others were just collateral damage.

Speaker 4 (17:54):
But you say no, why, Well, at this point, Haley
is not even living in the house, She's living up
north with her family. She's going to graduate at the
end of the termined in December, and Brian really wouldn't
have come in contact with her necessarily. But he did
go to the Mad Greek restaurant in downtown Moscow. It

(18:17):
sort of vegan food which he liked, which he would
adhere to strictly, and Maddie was a waitress there. And
my belief is that they encountered one another in the
restaurant or any words said, did they have a conversation.
I don't think that was necessary. You know, both the
prosecution and the defense have said for the record that

(18:39):
there was no interaction between Brian Coburger and any of
the victims. They did not follow any of them on
social media to their knowledge, never had any real conversations
with them. But Brian was a man whose life was
sort of determined by obsessions determined such as being a

(18:59):
dick it to heroin such as losing one hundred pounds,
which as deciding to become the best student after being
a mediocre student. And I think once he saw Maddie
for whatever reasons, I mean, she's an attractive, blonde woman, charming, bibacious,
at juliant, he becomes interested in her, and I think

(19:22):
his fixation he would see the parties he would be
I believe, on the periphery of events, as parties were
hosted at this house on King Road, a party house,
and he would look at that and he felt it
was in some ways a constant rebuke to the life
that he was leading and the life he wanted to live.

(19:43):
He could never be a part of that, and he decided,
in his rage, in his mania, I believe, to do
something about it. And when he entered the house that night,
and he goes in through the kitchen, he passes two bedrooms,
the bedroom where Xana is with Ethan and also the
bedroom where Dylaan is. He doesn't stop. He goes up

(20:06):
up a flight, which isn't your natural inclination, into Maddie's
room and he finds her, but he's surprised to see
that Kaylee is there. He had no idea that as
she's sleeping over that she's staying for the weekend, she'd
come to town to show up at her new car.
She's just gotten a used range Rover, and she was
very proud of it and excited by it, and she

(20:27):
wanted to share that with her friends. And he discovers
Maddie and then kills her. Caylee fights back, climbs out
of the bed, just pressed against the wall, and he
kills her, and Hayley is collateral damage when he goes downstairs.
The two other victims are collateral damage too.

Speaker 1 (20:53):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me is a now
same professor of forensics Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville
State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon,
a star of a hit series Body Bags with Joe
Scott Morgan. But for my purposes, and most importantly, he

(21:16):
is a quote death investigator who has investigated.

Speaker 3 (21:20):
Over one thousand deaths. Joe Scott Morgan, you and I.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
Have gone over the evidence, both on air and off,
trying to determine who was the target. First of all,
doesn't matter who was the target, because they were.

Speaker 3 (21:36):
All for murdered.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
But the reason we were looking for this needle in
a haystack is to determine if we knew the target,
we could better figure out who was the perpetrator.

Speaker 8 (21:48):
Right.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
So you're hearing what Howard Bloom outlines in his chapter fifteen,
and I think this may be dispositive from your point
of view. The attacks on ghost solves versus Maddy Mogan.
They are very revealing.

Speaker 9 (22:07):
Explain the very revealing because of the level of violence
I think that's involved here. You've got these two victims
that are contained in that bedroom up there. And I
got to tell you, based upon what Howard is saying,
the idea that this individual Coburger allegedly knew where to
go in this house, because as you well know, you

(22:30):
stood outside that house, Nancy, it's a very confusing layout.
You would have to have specific knowledge of where her
room would be at that particular time. Now, the fact
that there was another occupant in there, maybe that's the
case and he was surprised by that, But it goes
to this idea of I would like to try to

(22:51):
understand if he had scoped this place out for a
particular period of time. Also, this kind of dovetails with
what Howard had said as well, that he saw parties
going on and that this is kind of a projection
he understands the life in there. There was a real
chilling video that came up, I don't know about a
year ago. I don't know if you guys recall this,

(23:13):
of them the occupants of that house, actually giving internal
views of that in a TikTok video. It made my
skin crawl as a dad and as a college professor,
because the individual that's seeing this can see the layout
inside of that, inside of that structure, which I think
that we can all agree is kind of peculiar, to
say the very least.

Speaker 1 (23:33):
Okay, you can't have it both ways, Joe Scott Morgan
or you Howard Bloom, do I dare to call you
on the carpet after you've.

Speaker 3 (23:40):
Literally written the book we can't have.

Speaker 1 (23:43):
He's full of rage and goes after these girls because
he can't have them. He can't have the party life,
the popularity, the thing he's been seeking since he lost
that one hundred pounds and had those two plastic surgeries.
It's not happening for him. You can't have the rage.
Plus and I really like the way you laid this
out and trying to Ah, here we go. Near the

(24:06):
beginning of your book, you talk about Brian Coburger delving
into quote the criminal mind and will be a quote scientist.

Speaker 3 (24:17):
Exploring why criminals do what they do.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
It's been kicked around that his motive, not that the
state needs to prove a motive.

Speaker 3 (24:25):
They don't, but jury's like to hear it.

Speaker 1 (24:27):
So practically speaking, you better hand one over on a
silver platter on top of the Christmas tree.

Speaker 3 (24:33):
You can't have him full of rage and.

Speaker 1 (24:37):
Methodically trying to carry out the perfect murder and get
away with it very calmly and methodically.

Speaker 3 (24:44):
So which one is it? What about it? Bloom?

Speaker 4 (24:48):
He was filled with mania, which is not the same
thing as rage, And you're trying to understand make a
rational explanation for completely irrational acts. What Brian Coberger tried
to do that night is to commit I believe the
perfect crime. I believe he wanted to get Maddie, he
wanted to kill her, and then once he gets into

(25:09):
the house, once he finds another girl there, all his
plans fall apart. That's why he leaves the knife sheet behind.
He did think things out. As the police well know,
there wasn't any blood, a trail of blood left by
the perpetrator in the house. All they had was the
touch DNA on the knife sheet. There was no trail

(25:32):
of blood going up the hill or where a car
was parked. He To this day they have not found
the murder weapon. To this day, they have not found
any clothes covered with blood from that house. And the
house was filled with blood. We've all seen the pictures
of the rivulets of blood leaking out from the foundation
of the house. So he did have some planning. He

(25:54):
knew enough. He thought to turn off his phone from
two forty seven to four forty eight for those two
hours when the murders were taking place, and he was
getting me say hey, hey.

Speaker 1 (26:03):
Hey, hey, hey, Howard Bloom, you're the fire hydrant. You're
giving me the information faster than I can take it in.
I can't drink from a fire hydrant. You've got to
give it to me teaspoon by teaspoon. And I'm telling
you this book amazing. But Brian C. Stewart joining me,
high profile lawyer joining us who practices in this jurisdiction

(26:24):
as well as in Utah.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
Brian, I hear what Howard is saying, I hear.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
What Joe Scott Morgan is saying, and I've got to agree,
I empathize.

Speaker 3 (26:34):
I get both the theories.

Speaker 1 (26:37):
The reality is the state never has to prove a motive,
but your ours want to hear a motive. So do
you believe that in this case Josey's trial, which it is,
despite the defense dragging their feet and dragging.

Speaker 3 (26:55):
The judge along with them, he's going along with it.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
Do you believe the state has to pick a theory
as to motive because these two were not consistent, or
are they rage versus method?

Speaker 10 (27:07):
Well, motive can be an important part of the circumstantial
evidence that leads a jury to understand why a perpetrator
commits a crime, But as you said, it's not necessary
to prove that they committed the crime. Here, you know
where Brian Colberger seems like somebody who's studying criminal justice
and perhaps sees himself as the smartest person in the

(27:29):
room or a narcissist. His motivation may be to commit
the perfect crime, and he would know that choosing someone
in another city who he doesn't have a relationship with
would create a lot of distance between him and the
potential victim. That's the first thing that police look for
his relationships.

Speaker 4 (27:47):
In a murder.

Speaker 10 (27:48):
And he might have chosen Maddie as someone who's young
and blond and beautiful and might get him a lot
of notoriety as he evades justice. And so if that's
his motivation, that could certainly be the reason why he
chose somebody and doesn't have necessarily rage for Maddie, but
has raged for the system, or mania, as Harold says,

(28:12):
to beat the system.

Speaker 2 (28:14):
What happened the Fateful Night of the University of Idaho
for Murderous New Theories revealed in a special episode with
author Howard Bloom.

Speaker 3 (28:24):
And joining us.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
Howard Bloom has meticulously investigated so many facts of the
case that we didn't know about, including Coburger's past, how
he lost one hundred pounds and had two different plastic
surgeries to remove a flap of skin from his stomach
that went down over his genitals.

Speaker 3 (28:48):
He didn't want that look.

Speaker 1 (28:49):
He lost one hundred pounds on his own, had two
plastic surgeries to reinvent himself as a modern day Adonis.
But according to his friends what I'm reading when the
Night comes falling. His friends didn't like how that transformation
changed his personality. He became, I know it all, very

(29:11):
aggressive and that was born out at Washington State University.

Speaker 3 (29:17):
He treated his friends in high school that way. After
he got his new.

Speaker 1 (29:20):
Look, he became in his mind the it guy, but
somehow he couldn't pull it off. What if anything, did
that have to do with the murders of four beautiful
University Idaho's students. Okay, you know, to this old panel,
including Howard Bloom joining us, I've got to have more

(29:42):
than what Joe Scott Morgan is telling me that the
attack on Kelly was much more savage than the attack
on Matty Mogan. Why all four of them were brutally
stabbed dead? I need to know who is my target?
And in this book Bloom describes a blood trail. He

(30:05):
also describes the blood literally leaking down the outside of
the house, which I observed when I went to Idaho.

Speaker 3 (30:13):
But that's it.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
Let's talk about the blood evidence, Howard Bloom, What about
the blood evidence convinces you as to who the real
target was?

Speaker 4 (30:25):
Well, one point that you've just made about the wounds
on Kayley being so severe. Kaylee brought back. She was
not She was originally in the bed with Maddie. She
gets up from the bed, the room is very narrow.
She tries to get towards the wall, but she's trapped
by Coburger and she's fighting back, and she is not

(30:50):
dying easily. It's a very violent death. And he's enraged
that he even has. I believe that he had to
encounter her. He did not expect her, and to find
this woman fighting back like a tiger is putting him
in his mania, is exacerbating the situation. He thought he

(31:10):
would go in there and kill Maddie, who was her
presence rebuked him. I think that's what was going on
that night in that house, Nancy.

Speaker 7 (31:21):
So there's a couple of things that you know from
my think thought process in this one is you know
that Evening Colberger he's he's I don't think he's manic, depressive,
or in a manic state in any way, shape or form.
My personal opinion, I think he's very organized. He selected
his target set on purpose. And the reason I feel

(31:45):
that way, there's a couple of things. One is both
Madison and Kayley, they're attached it to him from you know,
elementary school they go through, they select the same college,
they have the same kind of birthday party together. They're
in the exact same house. And that evening, when Coberger

(32:05):
pulls up, if he's our guy, he's got to see
her car. He's got to know, based on the surveillance
that he's been doing, that she potentially could be there
as well.

Speaker 4 (32:17):
And so we have to now ask ourselves.

Speaker 3 (32:20):
Oh no, no, I disagree.

Speaker 1 (32:21):
I disagree because I don't know that Coburger knew about
her new car, Arrange Rover that was new and well,
I mean it's he used vehicle.

Speaker 4 (32:32):
At this point, Kelly is not really living in the house.
She's living at Court Dealine. She just comes in for
that weekend and he didn't know that. He didn't expect it.
And when he's circling the house, he's I believe he's
not really doing that night three times he comes and goes.
I believe he's not doing surveillance. I believe he's trying

(32:52):
to find the will inside himself to turn off the motor,
to stop the car, to climb downill and omit this crime.
Each time he circles the house, it's not to see
what's going on. He doesn't even really notice the cars.
But it's really an internal battle he's fighting. If you
had seen the cars, if you'd even seen the door

(33:13):
dash delivery, there was a DoorDash delivery at four am,
he might have reconsidered it. He was locked in, Howard.

Speaker 1 (33:20):
Hold On, Howard Bloom, Howard Bloom, you were taking our
program down a big path. Now I guess you're joining
us from Manhattan that you have never been down a
pig path.

Speaker 3 (33:30):
But what a big path is.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
It's certainly not a direct line or goes in any
organized manner. It just goes all over the place. But
you know what, Howard Bloom, that's the way an investigation is.
When I would sit around a table talking with investigators
and witnesses other das one topic leads to another topic,
leads to another topic, and it's hard to marshal your evidence,

(33:54):
which you did a great job in your book doing.

Speaker 3 (33:57):
But guys, he brought up another thing, brought up.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
Bloom brought up that cobroker circles the house three times.
And yes, I'm going to get to that store clerk, who,
in my mind, helped crack this case. Who you say
wants to remain anonymous, and I don't blame her. Long
story short, how did you confirm, Howard Bloom that a

(34:21):
white Elantra, our car similar to a white Elantra circled
the King wrote address three times leading up to the
quadruple murder. How did you confirm that?

Speaker 4 (34:34):
Well, part of it is in court documents and the
public affidavits. But I also spoke with the gas station
attendant who gave the surveillance video to the police too,
So a lot of that is public record. What is
not public record, clearly, is what was in the driver's
mind at that time as he was circling. Something. You

(34:56):
have to remember, in all of the surveillance videos, there's
not photograph of the license plate of the car. There's
not one photograph of the driver. You can't see who
it is holding the steering wheel. The FBI has tried
everything to try to pull a picture from inside the
car of who was driving that night, and they couldn't.

(35:17):
So Coburger, I believe, was the man in that Hondai
a Lantra, and he was trying to find the will
to cross over into the man who was thinking about
this horrific crime to becoming the sort of man who
could commit it. And it was a difficult, difficult journey
he was taking internally that.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
Night, families of the slain Idaho four victims await justice.
As a judge, that's a date for trial.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yeah, and that judge, many argue, is cow telling to
the defense. When are these families going to get justice?
That's a whole other can of worms with me. Howard Bloom,
the author of an incredible new book, When the Night
Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders. Okay,
all hands on deck to analyze what Howard Bloom was
telling us. Now, Howard Bloom, you crossed over into the

(36:09):
gas station video, which is later when I believe Coburger's
leaving the scene. I going to go back to you
stating in your book that you believe Coburger, a white
Elantra circles the crime scene three times that we know
of before the murders occur.

Speaker 3 (36:28):
Now, not the gas station video you are telling me
that's caught on video?

Speaker 1 (36:33):
Is it as you described at the end near the
end of chapter twenty, A guy who owns a rental complex,
I think three apartments a rental complex nearby, and he's
got a camera on top of the rental complex looking down.
Did his video catch the launtra circling three times before

(36:58):
the murders.

Speaker 4 (36:58):
Yes, and in this video too, they still can't make
out a license plate. They still can't make out in
the darkness the driver, but they are able to make
out the car. When the FBI in Quantico is trying
to figure out from these videos what kind of car is,
they try three different times until they finally come up
with a Hondai Elanka from twenty eleven to twenty fifteen.

(37:21):
At first they thought it was just twenty eleven to
twenty thirteen. And that's one of the reasons why Brian
Colberger takes so long to find him, because they were
the authorities in Washington State were really looking for the
wrong car.

Speaker 3 (37:35):
Hey, just got Morgan, and everybody jump in.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
I'm going to circle back to you, Brian Stewart about
MENSREA about intent.

Speaker 3 (37:43):
Is it even needed?

Speaker 1 (37:45):
Do we need explicit intent or is it implicit by
the number of the killings that we have murder ones,
of course we do. But I want to talk to
you about the legal theory before that just got Morgan.
You hear Howard Bloom describing three times he circled that
we know of, and it's caught, I believe on the

(38:05):
top of that rental facility. There's a camera up on
the roofs and I looked everywhere when I was out there,
Joe Scott Morgan, I went very slowly, and it was
slippery and icy, and I fell more than once. I
looked all the way up and down the street for
surveillance videos.

Speaker 3 (38:23):
It's very narrow. I've told you this story.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
I could sit on one side of the street, look
into the kitchen window across the street and tell you
what kind of liquid soap they had sitting on their
sink at the kitchen window.

Speaker 3 (38:37):
It's that close. I did not see the overhead surveillance
camera on that rental. It's on the roof. It's incredible.

Speaker 1 (38:46):
Now he was talking about the FBI tried everything to
enhance the tag and the driver.

Speaker 3 (38:53):
How how what do they do to anhants.

Speaker 9 (38:55):
They're washing this thing through various programs that they have
Nancy in order to try to and down the image
because it's I'm sure that it's very granulated, particularly given
the nighttime status of this where you're not going to
be able to pick up you know, without some kind
of light enhancement like an infrared or something like this
that'll be able to give you finer detail. So it's

(39:17):
going to be greatly compromised. And look, you know, you
have to think about the house itself. This house is
kind of shaded in darkness from the rear. You're not
going to see a lot there. There's not a lot.
It's not like being in a huge city where you've
got street lights that are all over the place that'll
be illuminating this environment. So it's going to be a
tough ask if you're thinking about attempting to get an

(39:40):
image that's capturable so that they can do what they
need to do in order to identify this individual.

Speaker 3 (39:46):
Okay, Ted Scott, just please stop. You know what I
can see.

Speaker 1 (39:50):
I can see a tiny little crater on the moon,
but I can't get the tag number or the visage
of Coburger's fail.

Speaker 9 (40:00):
Why because these houses don't have the Hubble telescope on them.

Speaker 3 (40:04):
Nobody likes it, smart alec or I know what all,
Joe Scott.

Speaker 9 (40:07):
Well, you're the cameras that you're talking about. They're not
the highest of quality. I mean, look, I mean here
turned out every single day, they're in shops all over
the place. It doesn't mean that it's going to be
a great quality.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
Did Brian Koberger's parents suspect their son? An explosive new
book suggests family knew more than they ever let on
about their troubled son.

Speaker 3 (40:29):
Howard Bloom.

Speaker 1 (40:30):
His book is so talk full of evidence and facts
supporting what many of us have been thinking and pondering,
and so much more.

Speaker 3 (40:40):
When the night comes falling my Howard Bloom.

Speaker 1 (40:43):
Howard, we were just talking to Joe Scott Morgan about
why the FBI could not enhance.

Speaker 3 (40:49):
That video better than it did? I get it, But
I heard you saying something in the background.

Speaker 9 (40:54):
What was that?

Speaker 4 (40:55):
Well, not only couldn't they enhance the video, the FBI
has this program developed really for anti terrorism activities, and
they tried three different times to analyze the car, and
they got three different years. Originally they had the car
was not a HONDEI a Lantra. They made a Nissan CenTra,

(41:15):
and then finally there was a twenty eleven, and then
it's twenty thirteen, and then they finally played at the
end said twenty eleven to twenty fifteen. I can assure
you the FBI's fumblings will come up in court. I'm
sure the fence will raise this and try to impugne
the identification of the car.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
Okay, wait a minute, Wait a minute, Wait a minute,
the FBI fumbling, I don't see them fumbling here.

Speaker 3 (41:39):
What do you mean by that?

Speaker 4 (41:40):
Well, fumbling in the sense that their technology was just
not up to snuff and they gave declarations. The first
original be on the lookout notice was not for a
twenty to fifteen HONDEI Alantra. It was for a twenty
eleven Honde Alundra.

Speaker 3 (41:56):
How old on.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
Howard Bloom you mentioned a detail, and I'm not sure
if you thought I was just going to ignore it
or didn't catch it, But you said the FBI.

Speaker 3 (42:09):
Was trying to enhance. They tried it three times, I
believe you said.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
But are you referring to the type of video surveillance
that was ultimately introduced in the Kyle Rittenhouse case, where
we had satellite surveillance from nearly nine thousand seat in
the air to figure out what really happened and there

(42:36):
was video. Did the FBI go to the extent of
grabbing SAT video This was much more rudimentary.

Speaker 4 (42:45):
What they had was the surveillance photograph and they tried
to enhance it. These were grainy photographs, and they thought
they run them through this machine, this process, this computer
program that was developed at vast expense by the Department
of Defense and Homeland Security, originally for terrorism activities, and
they thought they could get the identity of the car,

(43:06):
and then they passed it out in their original be
on the lookout at the Moscow police sent nationwide for
a twenty eleven to twenty thirteen Conde Alandra. That was
a mistake. That wasn't the year of the car they
ultimately decided was Coberg.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, New and very disturbing details
emerging surrounding the Brian Coberger quadruple murder case and Nancy Grace.
This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
What happened the Fateful Night of the University of Idaho
for murders. New theories revealed in a special episode with
author Howard Bloom.

Speaker 1 (43:55):
Thank you for being with us with us, Author Howard
Bloom has just come out with an incredible book full
chock full of not only theories, but facts supporting the theory.
Supporting the hypothesis of the prosecution that Brian Coberg in
fact murdered four young University Idaho's students, Howard Bloom, You

(44:20):
describe in depth what happens with the two surviving roommates,
Dylan and Bethany Listen in the early.

Speaker 6 (44:28):
Morning hours between four am and four thirty AM. Dylan
Mortensen says she calls out to her friends, who she
thinks are being too loud. After hearing more loud noises,
Mortenson again tells her roommates to calm down, she's trying
to sleep. She turns and locks her door. Hearing loud
noises again, Mortensen opens the door and sees Brian Coberger
allegedly and believing him to be a partygoer who is leaving,

(44:49):
says nothing, shuts and locks her door again.

Speaker 1 (44:52):
The girl that lived, according to prosecutors, Brian Coburger went
into the home on King Road with a mission.

Speaker 3 (45:04):
To commit the perfect murder.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
Could he actually commit mass murder and not leave a
trace behind? And what about the two that lived? Dylan
Mortenson and Bethany Funk.

Speaker 3 (45:19):
Listen.

Speaker 6 (45:19):
Dylan Mortenson and Bethany Funk are both home while their
friends are murdered upstairs, and they are left unharmed. Sources
to ABC News and author Howard Bloom that Mortenson and
Funk were using their cell phones to communicate before, during,
and after the murders. Many have wondered, since Mortenson and
Funk were both in the home and on their cell
phones when the murders are taking place, why is there

(45:41):
an eight hour delay before police are called in. Why
were other friends called before police?

Speaker 1 (45:46):
Howard Bloom joining us with an all star panel, and guys,
remember we're not having high tea at Windsor Castle. Jump
in with your own theories and questions. The state could
use them, Howard Bloom. I'm curious as well, and you
devote a lot of time to this in your book
when the night comes falling about the delay on Dylan

(46:09):
Mortenson's part, she actually sees the killer leaving the home.
There's a serious delay and during that time a lot
of evidence could and.

Speaker 3 (46:21):
Most likely was lost.

Speaker 1 (46:24):
Question to you you described the police grappling with that's
seven to eight hour delay.

Speaker 4 (46:33):
Describe that the police are dumbfounded. They can't understand how
this girl could see a killer in the house and
do nothing about it. Her behavior is irrational, and I
think vote ultimately, the police and I have concluded that
a rational explanation is impossible. I think she was locked

(46:56):
in a state of terror. I also believe Cobert has
he descended and passed her on his way out of
the house, was locked in his own state of mania.
He was surrounded by his own armory of hate, if
you will. If Dylan had spoken out, if she had
tried to penetrate the moment that he was locked in,

(47:17):
I think she would have died. I think she would
have become another victim her terror. Her silence saved her life.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
You know, I haven't really thought about it in the
way that you just stated it, which is chilling. Justcott
Morgan joining me, Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author on
Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of a hit.

Speaker 3 (47:39):
Series Body Bags podcast.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
We've gone round and round about Dylan Mortenson, more so
than Bethany, because Bethany, while there, did not see the
perpetrator leaving. That's why more focus has been on Dylan Mortenson.
What do you make of what Howard Bloom just said.

Speaker 3 (48:00):
I agree with him. If she had uttered a sound,
she would be dead. Right now.

Speaker 9 (48:06):
I agree. Here's my perspective. I think that there's an
element to this where Coburger, if he did in fact
commit these crimes, was in such an exhausted state he
has tunnel vision at this point in time. He's trying
to clear himself of the scene. Think about all of

(48:26):
the energy that he has expended at this point in time,
starting on that top floor where there's just a slaughter
that has taken place allegedly at his own hands, and
then to be surprised by the other two residents on
this floor, with Zana and Ethan, he has to encounter
them and make his way past them. I don't know

(48:48):
that people, and I hope people never do, understand the
amount of energy that would go in to try to
commit this kind of heinous crime, and so he's locked in.
I think that probably she had in fact spoken, she
would have just become an obstacle to him that he's
trying to defeat to make his way to that door
so he can get out and get in that car

(49:09):
and leave.

Speaker 1 (49:10):
Much the way, according to Howard Bloom Kelley Gonsolvis became
let me just see an impediment because of the ferocity
of the attack on Kelly Gonsoves and her father said
that he believed Kelly was the target. Now Bloom is
saying Maddie was the target and Kelly was in the way,

(49:37):
So that supports what you're saying. But I want to
follow up with doctor Angela Arnold.

Speaker 3 (49:43):
I want you to hear this. Howard Bloom and Brian.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
Stewart, you often have to go to state of mind
as a trial lawyer. Doctor Angela Arnold is with US
renowned psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find
her at angela Arnold MD dot com. Doctor Angie, analyze
what we've just heard. How or could I use that
at trial to explain to this jury why Dylan Mortenson

(50:09):
did nothing. Now I have defended Dylan Mortenson from the
get go. Dylan Mortenson is a crime victim. Let's not
forget that before everybody heaps on what she did wrong. Okay,
she did nothing wrong. She had been out like many
many thousands of vandals. That's the college mascot, drinking and

(50:34):
having a good time. There was a football game that weekend.
She comes home, it's really late at nine, around four am.
She's been partying. She hears a noise, she hears the dog,
she hears her roommates saying something, and she gets up
in that state of mind, How does she know who

(50:57):
he was, that he was a killer?

Speaker 3 (50:59):
How does she know he.

Speaker 1 (51:00):
Wasn't just someone visiting and leaving. People were ordering food,
people were going to sleep. They've been partying all night long.
It's four in the morning. Is that why she didn't
call nine one one? Now the crux the rub is
going to be what's in the cell phone communications between

(51:21):
Bethany and Dylan. But can you think of, as a psychiatrist,
a rational explanation as to why Dylan did not call
nine one one?

Speaker 8 (51:32):
Yes, I can, Nancy, because these are let's just remember,
these are kids that are in college. They're partying, it's
close to the end of the semester. Would anyone in
their right mind think, oh my god, there's a killer
in the house and my friends have been killed. I
am sure that didn't even enter their minds. There was noise,

(51:54):
Apparently there was always a lot of coming and going
from this house because they're just kids in calling having
a good time, right, that was the culture there. So
she did nothing wrong. I have a feeling that with
all of the communication back and forth and everything. She
had no idea who he was. He wasn't, She didn't

(52:17):
recognize him. He was just somebody walking through the house.
And she was probably a little bit scared because of
the noise that she had heard.

Speaker 3 (52:26):
She was a little bit shocked. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
I don't know about her being scared, because if she
was scared, she would have called nine one one.

Speaker 3 (52:32):
I think she was a little bit drunk, and maybe.

Speaker 8 (52:37):
She was Nancy, And so if she was, it's not
like she was out driving and drinking.

Speaker 10 (52:41):
She was in her home.

Speaker 8 (52:43):
He drink, slow down, sleeping it.

Speaker 1 (52:46):
Off, Slow down, Nollie, you're preaching to the choir right now.
I'm on Dylan's side on this. Back to Howard Bloom, Yes,
I can explain away why she didn't call nine one one,
But what do we know about her communications with Bethany
during that time, the other roommate. Does it prove she

(53:11):
did know an attack was occurring, or does it prove
the contrary You.

Speaker 4 (53:16):
Are raising One of the great mysteries of this case.
All I have been able to find out is that
testimony about those texts were given to the grand jury.
The grand jury heard about it. The grand jury reviewed
some of those tests. What they said, I'd be dishonest

(53:37):
if I said I knew. My feeling is, though, that
Dylan and Bethany are both victims. Their lives are changed
forever by these events, and we keep on looking for
a rational explanation for Dylan's behavior. It wasn't irrational night.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
I think I know something. I think I can do
something Howard Bloom and be proving very wrong come trial time.
But let me go to a trial strategist on this.

Speaker 3 (54:07):
Brian C.

Speaker 1 (54:07):
Stewart, veteran trial lawyer who's joining us from this jurisdiction
in Idaho. He practices there in Utah. Brian, you've tried
a lot of cases, and if you want to win
a case, you marshal your evidence. You have a plan
what you're going I recall when I would write out yes,

(54:28):
I would write out every question verbatim for every witness.
Of course, you know you have a plan when you
go into a fight, but when you get a punch
in the nose, the plan goes to hey, right, so
you have a plan. Let's think about these communications, the
communications between Dylan and Bethany. We know they were communicating

(54:52):
by phone. Thanks to Howard Bloom, we now know those
are not phone calls. They were texts. Those texts were
given to the grand jury who indicted Coburger.

Speaker 3 (55:04):
Think this through.

Speaker 1 (55:07):
I have a strong suspicion, a deduction that those texts
were about what is the noise?

Speaker 3 (55:13):
Did you hear the dog?

Speaker 1 (55:14):
What's going on? Are they still awake? Blah blah blah,
Because Brian C.

Speaker 3 (55:21):
Stewart, if those texts were about, oh.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
My star, somebody's in the house. Did you hear a scream?
I thought I heard a fight and text to that genre.
I believe those texts would have been used as establishing
a timeline. We would have heard about the nature of
those texts if they were probative, in other words, if

(55:45):
they proved anything.

Speaker 10 (55:46):
I think that's right. We would have heard more about them.
They would have given us more information about what the
girls experienced during that period. But to me, the fact
that they were locked inside their rooms and sending texts
rather than talking or going to find each other tells
me that they were still in fear and didn't believe they.

Speaker 3 (56:06):
Wait a minute, Brian, I don't know if you know that.

Speaker 1 (56:12):
My ninety two year old mother lives with us, and
my husband just gave me the greatest gift ever. I
don't like jewelry, fancy cars or clothes, don't even say fur.

Speaker 3 (56:24):
He gave me I Granny cam.

Speaker 8 (56:26):
I love it.

Speaker 3 (56:28):
I can see what Granny is doing at night. Has
she fallen on the floor? Is she wandering around aimlessly?

Speaker 1 (56:35):
Do I need to go get out of bed at
three am and go check on her like I did
the first eight years she lived with us?

Speaker 3 (56:42):
How easy is it to text?

Speaker 1 (56:44):
Why do you want to get up when you're wearing
nothing but a T shirt, go out in the hall,
knock on your roommate's door and.

Speaker 3 (56:51):
Go, hey, wake up. I've got a question.

Speaker 1 (56:54):
What's going on up there? Technical term? I don't know
if you've got it in Idaho, in Utah?

Speaker 4 (56:58):
B s.

Speaker 1 (56:59):
Of course, what's their texting? I text back and forth
with the twins. We're in there there in the back
of the house, right, that's not I don't find that
disturbing at all at all, Brian, I don't either.

Speaker 10 (57:11):
But if they had heard some struggle, if they had
heard any screaming, it would make entire sense to me
that they would lay low and be paralyzed by fear
during those hours.

Speaker 1 (57:20):
Okay, Chris mcdonnaugh joining me, Director Cold casese Foundation, former
homicide detective, star of the Interview Room on YouTube where
I found him, Chris mcdonnaugh, haven't we both agreed that
these two roommates, Dylan and Bethany, they were the lowman
on the.

Speaker 3 (57:39):
Totem pole in that they got the bottom of bedrooms.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
And the house looks very different from the front than
it does on the side than it does from the back.
In the front of the house, Chris McDonough as Howard
Bloom so vividly lays out in his book, whoever has
to live down there, you can't keep the light out
even if you use darkened curtains. Every time a cart

(58:08):
pulls up in that driveway that parking area, and a
lot of people do because.

Speaker 3 (58:14):
It's a very steep and narrow road.

Speaker 1 (58:16):
It's one of the only places to turn around and
go back down the descent of the hill. This house
is near the top of a hill and people are
turning around and pulling in. It's a party house. Every
house around it as a party house. Constant traffic. So
the lowman on the tone pole gets these two bedrooms

(58:37):
and that would be Dylan and Bethany eir Ago. Therefore,
Chris McDonough, they keep their doors locked and their curtains
pulled almost all the time. That is an entry point
to get to the other floors. So people visiting the
second third floor residents often come through that door, So

(59:00):
they keep their doors locked, Chris McDonough and their curtains closed.
And that's why, and Bloom lays it out in his book,
that's why the doors were locked.

Speaker 7 (59:09):
Yeah, absolutely, you're correct, Nancy. I would agree with you that,
you know, the point of entry, would you know, for
an individual like this who has taken so much time
to you know, plan this out, potentially to come through
that front door, you know, just doesn't make sense. The
back point of entry would make much more sense, which

(59:30):
also brings us to you know, the communication thought processing.
If I can comment on that for a moment. You know, today,
you know, these this generation just communicates via text. Remember
up until four o'clock, four am, they're still getting people
knocking on that door. I eat the food delivery, et cetera.

(59:53):
So it it wouldn't surprise me one iota if at
some point when these texts are revealed that they're communicating
with each other, they're trying to communicate with their roommates,
and quite frankly, when it goes quiet and Coburger comes
down those stairs, they may have even been thinking the
party's over, this is the last guy out, and they
may have even gone back to bed, and so that

(01:00:17):
end of it, Shelf the fear factor could play into this,
or quite frankly, like you mentioned earlier, maybe there's alcohol
on board and they're just exhausted. They're just they're just
college students. They're going back to sleep, and that would
account for the delay.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
And much has been made to the fact that Coburger
was wearing a mask. Why would she have not been
suspicious of that? Do I have to say COVID?

Speaker 7 (01:00:39):
Yeah, absolutely, and that and that does you know, play
play into this?

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
Now, early on we heard Kelly Gonsolvas's parents speaking out
stating she was the target, and I understand that because
her wounds were so much more heinous than Maddie's. But
according to this new bombs She'll theory, Maddie was in
fact the target. Also, we are learning from Howard Bloom's

(01:01:07):
new book When the Night Comes Falling, that there is
blood evidence that Ethan Chapin jumped up and confronted Brian
Coburger to protect his sweetheart, Xenna Kernodle to Howard Bloom,

(01:01:28):
I know that you have researched this so much that
it's may have become, you know, sop to you, but
to us, the revelations that you make in your book
are let me just say, illuminating. Tell me the facts
that support your theory that Ethan was stabbed as he
was trying to protect Xena, and that after he attacked Ethan,

(01:01:53):
he goes and says, don't worry, I'm here to help
you to Xena and then kills her. Fact support your theory.

Speaker 4 (01:02:01):
Ethan coming up to confront Coburger is with testimony that
was made to the grand jury. There's also evidence in
the coroner's report that was shared at the grand jury
that he was killed with a one massive cut to
his neck that caught his jugular vein. Has to Xana

(01:02:22):
speaking out first saying there's someone here, and then the
assailants saying I don't worry, I've come to help you.
That's in the police documents. I think that's arguably one
of the most chilling parts of this entire night, the
suspect approaching Zanna and saying, don't worry, I've come to

(01:02:43):
help you. I think that shows his maliciousness, his total
commitment uh to the crime and to taking this victim
and to making sure that anyone who encounters him is
not going to live.

Speaker 1 (01:02:59):
You go into each of the victims' backgrounds painstakingly, and
Xenna had an upsetting background as a child. Both of
her parents had been in and out of jail.

Speaker 3 (01:03:14):
And what does she do?

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
She survives, She works harder and harder and harder. She's
taken in by her aunt, and she is victorious against
all odds. And I am just imagining, imagining Joe Scott Morgan,
her lying there in bed with her sweetheart Ethan. And

(01:03:39):
you know, I think you were with us at some
point at crime Con before last, Joe Scott, when I
finally got to meet Ethan's mom, who is just amazing. No,
you were not with us, but then later when you
were speaking, she stood up and started talking and during
your address, and what a woman, the strength that mom had.

(01:04:07):
She just just remembering her and what she said to
me at Crime Con still strikes me to this day.

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
To you, Jo Scott.

Speaker 1 (01:04:17):
Regarding the evidence, the blood spatter, the blood trail, the
blood transfers, and what Howard Bloom is saying. I want
to merge those because if I were telling this to
a jury, I would have to I would have to
describe what Howard Bloom says about how Coburger comes into
the room and he is confronted by Ethan to protect

(01:04:42):
his sweetheart Xanna. Ethan is murdered by a slicing stab
to the juggler, and then the killer as Ethan crumples
to the ground, moves forward to his next target, Xanna Kernodle,

(01:05:03):
and she's afraid, and he says, don't worry.

Speaker 3 (01:05:09):
I'm here to help you explain how I can prove
this at trial.

Speaker 9 (01:05:16):
I think that when you think about progression, we talk
about in forensics, a commingling of evidence. And from the
start with this case, and you're you know, you're trying
to tie tie in the timeline, you're going to have
commingled blood evidence that you're going to find at the scene.
And what I mean by that, Nancy, is that the
two victims upstairs, if they were in fact the first

(01:05:39):
he Coburger allegedly would have had blood evidence on him,
and not just on him, but also this weapon. As
he's advancing into the Xana's room, he's already taken Ethan's
life with the slice to the throat. He's going to
advance on her. We know that there's very specific contact
between the portrayer and Xana. She fought back as well, Nancy.

(01:06:03):
We have indication that at least through one report, that
she had a defensive wound on her hand that actually
went down to the level of the tendons. That means
that more than likely, more than likely, she probably grabbed
hold of this blade as and then it's withdrawn and
it slices through the palm of her hand. And we
have to think about this scientifically. It's hard to dismiss

(01:06:26):
the emotion, but you have to think about it as
far as the progression if you want to try to
zero in on this and get an idea as to
the order of these events. I think probably the biggest
thing that this jury is going to see in this
case when they see these crime scene images, Nancy, is
that both of these locations, both of these rooms are
going to be bathed in a lot of blood evidence.

(01:06:48):
The big question is how did he clear that house
without transferring a bunch of blood evidence to either other
locations in that house or certainly within the confines of
that car.

Speaker 7 (01:06:58):
How did he.

Speaker 9 (01:06:59):
Escape that without having blood all over the place at
his apartment for instance, That remains to be seen.

Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
You know, Bryan C.

Speaker 1 (01:07:08):
Stewart joining US veteran tryal lawyer, managing partner at Parker
and Maconcole. He practices in this jurisdiction, Idaho and Utah.
You know, the defense is really going to have a
heck of a time because the predatory nature of what
was said to Xanna. Think about it, Think about it.

(01:07:32):
I would lay it out for a jury, just as
I believe it happened. Coburger walks into that dark room.
Ethan jumps up from the bed. He approaches Coburger to
protect his sweetheart Xanaker Nodle, who's still lying in the bed.
He's immediately sliced across a jugular and falls to his death.

Speaker 3 (01:07:54):
Right here.

Speaker 1 (01:07:55):
He then advances on Xanna, who's lying in bed, and
he says the deceiving words.

Speaker 3 (01:08:06):
Don't worry, I'm here to help you, before he murders her.
He is well within his wits.

Speaker 1 (01:08:18):
He is prepossessed of mind, and he has the wherewithal
to lie and deceive Xanna. The predatory nature of his
advancing silently towards Xana Kernodle is bowed chilling.

Speaker 10 (01:08:39):
I think the evidence clearly shows that he was clear
minded and intentional about everything that he did that night.
And you know, while we have to prove mensrea or
a mental component in order to get a conviction, that
doesn't necessarily include the motive or motivation.

Speaker 4 (01:08:57):
For why he did the crimes.

Speaker 10 (01:08:58):
The mensrea would would mean that they have to prove
that he intended the actions that he did, which he
clearly did, and then that he intended to take those lives.
And it's impossible from the evidence that's available to say
that he didn't intend to stab them, that he didn't
intend to take their lives, and it and it should

(01:09:19):
be chilling, bone chilling, and to understand the ruthlessness of
his of his actions. You know it?

Speaker 7 (01:09:26):
How y'all do it today?

Speaker 9 (01:09:28):
Good?

Speaker 11 (01:09:29):
Good? Take look your driver's lines into real quick if
I could.

Speaker 4 (01:09:33):
So.

Speaker 11 (01:09:33):
He's right up on that man.

Speaker 12 (01:09:35):
Man, you right up on the back end of that man.

Speaker 7 (01:09:39):
Old you ever for tailgating?

Speaker 4 (01:09:41):
Is this your car?

Speaker 2 (01:09:43):
Okay?

Speaker 11 (01:09:44):
Cool.

Speaker 7 (01:09:45):
Where are you headed?

Speaker 10 (01:09:46):
Well, we coming from w s U.

Speaker 3 (01:09:52):
Where are you headed?

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
He later says, we're going for tie food and the
Dad's like, what uh you are seeing bodycam video when
a Hancock County, Indiana Sheriff's department bodycam when they pull
them over and ask to see.

Speaker 3 (01:10:11):
Coburger's driver's license.

Speaker 1 (01:10:13):
Now, it was arguing back and forth, and I claimed
vehemently that this was no coincidence because there were two
pullovers by local l E law enforcement in one shrip pome,
When does that happen? How often do you get pulled over?
I rarely get pulled over. So you get pulled over

(01:10:33):
twice and you never even get a ticket. Oh no,
that's stunt. To high heaven.

Speaker 3 (01:10:39):
With me right now.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
Howard Bloom, author of a brand new book, When the
Night Comes Falling a requiem for the Ito student murders,
which is amazing, and in his book he outlines how
these two pullovers nearly costs the FBI their investigation, or
so they thought.

Speaker 3 (01:11:01):
Take a listen to more of the pullover.

Speaker 12 (01:11:03):
What's WSU?

Speaker 4 (01:11:06):
Yeahs that is why he married.

Speaker 11 (01:11:15):
Sure, Okay, I have a hard time hearing you because
of the traffic. So you're coming from watching the State
University and you're going where.

Speaker 2 (01:11:25):
Oh okay, yeah, we're a little fight.

Speaker 3 (01:11:30):
You much about how to Howard Bloom.

Speaker 1 (01:11:34):
I'm gonna circle back to the fact that, unasked, he
starts talking about swat teams swarming the area.

Speaker 3 (01:11:41):
Methink thou dost protest too much?

Speaker 1 (01:11:44):
In the immortal words of William Shakespeare, nobody asked, nobody asked.

Speaker 3 (01:11:49):
Yet he's dead.

Speaker 1 (01:11:51):
He's just regurgitating, vomiting the information when nobody asked. But
I want to circle back to the so called hat
box operation that you describe so well in your book
When the Night Comes Falling. Explain and why did the FBI,
who absolutely was following Coburger as seeing his dad across

(01:12:11):
the country, thought that their entire operation they go up
in flames.

Speaker 4 (01:12:16):
Well, as you point out, the FBI decided that Coburger
was a person of interest. They decided this earlier, before
they even told the Moscow Task Force. They kept this
to themselves for either one of two reasons. The first
reason was that it was the identification was based on
the genealogy genetics, investigative genetic genealogy, and they thought that

(01:12:39):
wouldn't hold up in court, or a much more cynical
explanation would be that the FBI didn't want to share
the credit for Coburg's arrest with anyone else, So they
go off and follow him, and they have cars, they
have a plane in the air that's following his route,
and suddenly they see Coburger being stopped, and they don't

(01:13:01):
know what's going on, and they don't know what to do.
Had a they think a local cop, a local sheriff
had seen the be on the lookout for notice and
swooped in on this Hondai elantra. Or they're also wondering
how is Coburger going to react he is a suspect
in a quadruple homicide. Is he going to get on

(01:13:22):
the you know, put his foot on the accelerator and
tear out, or perhaps he's going to shoot anything as
possible of the officer who's coming in to give him
this traffic ticket. The FBI decides to stand back and
see what happens. To their great relief, Coburger is allowed
to go through, and they figure, well, this is just

(01:13:43):
a traffic stop of some kind. Then nine minutes.

Speaker 1 (01:13:47):
Later, it's almost laughable, howard, because the FBI actually has
a bird in the air watching. They see one pull
over by the Hancott Kenny Sheriffs, and Coburger goes on
his way.

Speaker 3 (01:14:01):
And then there's another pullover.

Speaker 2 (01:14:03):
Don't you know.

Speaker 3 (01:14:04):
They're like, what is happening down there?

Speaker 1 (01:14:07):
Why are they pulling over our quadruple murders suspect. I'm
sure they were just and they couldn't say anything. And
they're watching from a bird, right, yes, I.

Speaker 4 (01:14:19):
Have a session. They're flying overhead. You know, it's a
hawk waiting to swoop down in case anything happens. In effect,
and they've been building this case for six weeks and
they're finally getting closer and they think the whole case
is going to be blown apart before they've connected all
the dots, and they are filled with a sense of panic.
But discipline here what Howard?

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
They were right and this is no offense to Indiana
at all. But I understand where the FBI is coming from,
and you know how much I hate the fans. But
that said Chris mcdonnald joining me, director Cole Case Foundation,
former homicide detective, and start of the interview room on YouTube. Chris,
if they had stopped Coburger and he nutted up and

(01:15:03):
they arrested him or sped off. Anything could have happened
because we can't we can't predict what Coburger is going
to do.

Speaker 3 (01:15:09):
Just like his father, he had no idea what his
son might do.

Speaker 1 (01:15:12):
We would never have gotten the evidence that we got
when they finally got home to the Pocono area, remember
they were surveilled.

Speaker 3 (01:15:21):
They went in finally or in the early morning hours,
they catch him, I.

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
Think, in his shorts or underwear, wearing plastic gloves and
separating his trash from everybody else's trash, and they see
him go throwing trash in the neighbor's receptacle. None of
that would have happened if local authorities had arrested Coburger
for a traffic violation, or if Coburger spun out and

(01:15:47):
brought about his own arrest.

Speaker 3 (01:15:49):
So I understand why they were worried.

Speaker 7 (01:15:51):
Yeah, absolutely, And not only that. If you remember this
offshoers leaning in, So if he would have seen anything
in plane view, you know what Doc Morgan was talking about,
you know, any blood transfer or anything like that. Well,
the clock starts ticking right then and there. If this
officer starts diving into this traffic stop that you may
have this fugitive task for surveillance team, you know, overhead

(01:16:14):
and behind them going hey, what the heck is going
on here? So and quite frankly, I hate to say it,
but I've seen this as well as many others numerous
at times where you know, this thing could have gone
south really fast, but fortunately they cut them loose and
they were able to connect those dots later.

Speaker 12 (01:16:33):
On Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, what do you say.

Speaker 7 (01:16:45):
About some black team there together shooting.

Speaker 9 (01:16:50):
Where the.

Speaker 4 (01:17:03):
Interesting all. It's horrifying because he's the universe.

Speaker 3 (01:17:09):
I want to tell you, sure y'all talk about volunteering.

Speaker 1 (01:17:13):
That's Coberger talking about the SWAT team as it related
to a different homicide.

Speaker 3 (01:17:18):
But as you can see, he's going on and on.

Speaker 1 (01:17:21):
And on about murders and swat teams that he wasn't
asked about.

Speaker 3 (01:17:26):
And let's listen to more. Listen to the body cam
so here, y'all.

Speaker 4 (01:17:30):
Work at the university there, actually work there?

Speaker 11 (01:17:37):
Okay, okay, yeah, I hadn't heard about that incident just
yesterday or how many?

Speaker 9 (01:17:50):
About an hour to get involved the stops, I want to.

Speaker 7 (01:17:54):
Not show this sutions if they could shoot somebody.

Speaker 4 (01:17:57):
They say, And then you don't know about that.

Speaker 3 (01:17:59):
Actually, it's really hard to hear it.

Speaker 1 (01:18:03):
Remember that side body cam that Ellie is wearing on
their shoulder, and you hear the deputy saying interesting, interesting,
and you hear Coburger's father, Michael say, well, it's horrifying.
So Coburger knew very well how his father would view
a murder, much less a quadruple murder.

Speaker 3 (01:18:24):
So while the FBI and their bird in the air.

Speaker 1 (01:18:28):
The helicopter at SAYSNA is watching, two times police pull
over Coburger route home. Howard Bloom in his book When
the Night Comes Falling, describes a quote hat box operation.
Only if you're in law enforcement, would you know what
that means?

Speaker 3 (01:18:44):
What does that mean?

Speaker 9 (01:18:45):
And what is it?

Speaker 3 (01:18:46):
How does it relate to Coburger?

Speaker 4 (01:18:48):
The hat box operation goes back to the days of
the g men, when the FBI used to wear fedoras
and they would trail people on the street. They'd have
the fedoras over their brill cream hat. Well, there's the balanced.
Techniques have changed. They now have cars, unmarked cars, planes
and even electronic devices. But the term stays. It means

(01:19:08):
you're going to follow this guy it's a complete operation.
You're not going to lose sight of him. The irony
is the FBI loses Coburger for a while. They don't
pick him up until a couple of hours later because
he's taken a different route than the one they expected,
and they pick him up through a license plate reader
in Loma, Colorado, and then they stay on him.

Speaker 3 (01:19:27):
And it really befuddles me.

Speaker 1 (01:19:30):
Why in the last minute, after all of his father's
research about the best route home it was a long drive,
he Coburger comes up with a very roundabout, circuitous route home.
It takes hours longer than necessary, and his father is
so walking on eggsheels around his son Coburger that he goes, Okay,

(01:19:51):
you're the boss, Fine, we'll go your way, even though
it made no sense and that was not the route
the FBI was expecting, and they lose co reminds me
of the securitiest route. I believe he took the night
after the murders to get back home. Oh my stars,
we've got all the digital evidence to get.

Speaker 3 (01:20:09):
To the turning the phone off, the turning the phone on, the.

Speaker 1 (01:20:12):
Cell phone towers, and it's really interesting speaking of that,
Howard into your book, you talk about a pitch that
Coburger makes to the local PD trying to get a
job and internship, and you quote what he says in
his pitch, and I found it really interesting how he

(01:20:35):
would help rural police departments better analyze sell and digital
data to incorporate it into cases and prosecutions, which tells me,
of course, he didn't get the job, by the way,
but it tells me how intricately familiar he is with

(01:20:58):
digital evidence and supports the theory that he intentionally turned
off his phone when he left the King wrote address
and when he went into the King wrote address yes.

Speaker 10 (01:21:10):
No.

Speaker 4 (01:21:12):
Very much so. Also that short note he writes reflects
his arrogance, this sort of condescending attitude. Is he the
criminology doctoral candidate. He knows more than the local police.
The irony is that within months that would be used
against him, the evidence that they had compiled from cell
phones and cell phone towered data.

Speaker 1 (01:21:34):
Howard you reveal a receipt that was found regarding a
purchase of a uniform at Walmart.

Speaker 3 (01:21:43):
How does that play into this investigation?

Speaker 4 (01:21:45):
Well, Coberger has a blue Dicky's work uniform and worked
out for a one piece sort of body suit that
he bought, and police are now theorizing that he wore
that suit on the night of the killings. That's how
he was able to escape without any bloodstains on his
car whatever. Before he got into the car, he removed

(01:22:06):
the suit put it into a plastic bag, garbage bag,
they theorized, and that it also explains that long route
home that you've mentioned previously. He found a place to
dispose of this Dickie's worksuit that was covered in blood,
and also the murder weapon.

Speaker 3 (01:22:22):
You refer to a Dickie's work suit.

Speaker 1 (01:22:25):
I believe it was purchased at Walmart, and that would
explain not only why his clothes were not covered in blood,
but the Dickie's work suit, I think is a jumper
that you put on over your clothes if you wish,
and that was never recovered. But to the receipt, Did
the receipt reveal when the uniform was purchased?

Speaker 4 (01:22:46):
It was purchased, the best I've been able to ascertain,
I'm sure they have the exact date. I was it
was purchased within a month of the murders. That's what
I was told. I don't have the exact date.

Speaker 3 (01:22:56):
So not any time that he was working in systems.

Speaker 1 (01:23:02):
Remember he had a job where he was kind of
like a repair guy way back when this suit, this
Dickey's work suit was purchased just before the murders. And
another thing, you go into great detail about the complaints
filed against him at Washington State University by female students,

(01:23:22):
and it went on and on and on.

Speaker 3 (01:23:24):
It wasn't an overnight thing.

Speaker 1 (01:23:26):
The faculty, the administration there went to great pains to
document what was stated and to give him a chance
to explain it. But you describe Howard the whole way home,
how Coburger was seething about what had been said about
him by these female students, and more important, how he

(01:23:49):
was going to beat the rap and how they could
not fire him.

Speaker 3 (01:23:53):
He was going to fight back.

Speaker 1 (01:23:55):
Little did he know they had already sent an email
telling him it's over, or sent him a lets telling him.

Speaker 3 (01:24:00):
It was all over. But that seething that you describe
in your book was riveting.

Speaker 4 (01:24:09):
Yes, when he takes this trip across country with his father,
he's filled with rage. At the same time, I believe
he thought he was going to be able to return
to Washington State after the Christmas break and he would
start teaching again. He thought if there were charges up
against him, he could talk his way out of it.
That's what he kept on telling his father. I can

(01:24:29):
beat this. They can fire me without my having a hearing,
and I can act in my own as my own
defense attorney, and I can convince him that I should
not be fired. He needed this job. This job, this
teaching assistant, paid for his twenty nine thousand dollars a
year or so tuition and board.

Speaker 1 (01:24:46):
You know, I looked at your sources at the end
of your book, and I don't see the sources for
what was said in that car, his seething anger about
these women. How dare they complain about him? Are you
keeping many of your sources secret?

Speaker 4 (01:25:05):
Well, I've made arrangements with the people I spoke to
that I cannot reveal their names. What I did do
is pretty much when I started into this is what
the FBI did. They built a family tree of genetic clusters,
and so they worked their way to Brian Coburger. I
did the reverse. I went after the relatives of people

(01:25:27):
who were related to the Coburger family. I kept on
knocking on doors, reaching out to them, until I got
some of them who were in conversations with the Coburgers
to talk to me, and that was my primary sources. Also,
there were people in the town who had also spoken
to them, in the whole Strausburg all Brightesville area of Pennsylvania.

Speaker 1 (01:25:49):
In his book, Howard Bloom describes at the very beginning
the austere room where the murder case was worked at
police and he says law enforcement divided their facts, marshaled
their evidence into two categories, empirical and rhetorical. Empirical the

(01:26:12):
hard evidence. Rhetorical the why. And that's what we are
doing tonight again, Howard Bloom. Thank you for your book
and for joining us again to part two of the analysis,
and we barely scratch the surface the analysis of what
you have learned about the Coburger investigation. Thank you to

(01:26:35):
our other expert witnesses, but especially to you for joining
us as we seek justice in our own way.

Speaker 3 (01:26:43):
Goodbye, friend,

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