February 7, 2025 • 42 mins
Pre-order Nancy Grace's What Happened to Ellen?: An American Miscarriage of Justice, out April 22. Reserve your copy today: http://posthill.to/B0DBG9333Y
In the moments before a civil case was to get underway, the family of Ellen Greenberg and Philadelphia officials come to an agreement to reopen the death investigation of the young teacher. The settlement means that after 14 years, the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's office will reopen and reinvestigate Greenberg's manner of death. Ellen Greenberg was found stabbed 20 times in the head, back, neck and chest. Then her death was ruled a suicide.
The attorney for the Greenberg's, Joseph Padraza, Jr says the settlement includes an agreement that the Philadelphia Medical Examiner’s Office will conduct an “expeditious” review of the manner of Greenberg’s 2011 death. The settlement is reached days after Doctor Marlon Osbourne, who conducted the autopsy, as the former assistant medical examiner with the ME's office, signed a sworn verification statement in which he says he now believes Ellen's manner of death should be designated as something other than suicide. Doctor Osbourne initially ruled Ellen Greenberg's death a homicide then changed the ruling to suicide.
In a public statement, Doctor Marlon Osbourne said after reviewing additional information in the Ellen Greenberg case file obtained from the Philadelphia Police Department as well as a consult with Doctor Lucy Rorke-Adams, a pediatric neuropathologist, he decided to make the change. In his verification, Osbourne writes that he is now unsure of the series of events that happened that day. He also says he doesn't know "whether the door was forced open as reported; whether Ellen's body was moved by someone else inside the apartment with her at or near the time of her death, and the findings of Lindsey Emery, M.D., from her neuropathological evaluation of Ellen's cervical segment sample."
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- Sandee and Josh Greenberg - Ellen Greenberg's Parents, Twitter: @justice4ellentw, Facebook: @justice4ellenFB, GoFundMe: https://gofund.me/920af299
- Benee Knauer - Author, "What Happened To Ellen?: An American Miscarriage of Justice"
- Joseph R. Podraza, Jr. - Attorney for Ellen Greenberg Family, Partner with Lamb McErlane
- Caryn Stark - Psychologist, renowned TV and Radio trauma expert and consultant, www.carynstark.com, Instagram: carynpsych, FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice
- Tom Brennan - PI Consultant for Ellen Greenberg's family
- Guy D’Andrea - Former Prosecutor in Ellen Greenberg Case, Attorney at Laffey Bucci D’Andrea Reich & Ryan
- Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", @JoScottForensic
- John Luciew - Journalist for PennLive.com and The Patriot-News of Harrisburg, Pa., Author: “Kill the Story”, Twitter: @JohnLuciew
Pre-order Nancy Grace's What Happened to Ellen?: An American Miscarriage of Justice, out April 22. Reserve your copy today: http://posthill.to/B0DBG9333Y
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a beautiful young bride to
be stabbed twenty times, including in the back, the back
of the head, the back of the neck. Ruled suicide. Tonight,
(00:22):
her parents force this case to be reopened. I'm Nancy Grace.
This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
A shunking admission by the pathologist, and the stabbing death
of Philly teacher Ellen Greenberg. The case to be reopened.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
It all starts here. Listen my part, she answers on the.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Floor with flood everywhere. But oh no, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
I can tell you.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Does you have to calm yourself down in order to
get you somehow?
Speaker 4 (01:04):
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. She I don't know. I'm looking
at her right now. I can't see anything.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
There's nothing broken.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
She's leaped, Ellie.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
You don't know where she's bleeding from from.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
I think her head everywhere everywhere.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
She might have fallen, you know what happened. She may
have slipped his blood on the on the table.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Her piece is a little purple.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Okay, hold off.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
For rest for her on the phone.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
May have fallen, may have fallen on a knife twenty times,
may have slipped straight out to very special guests joining
us tonight. Ellen's parents that I now call friends, Josh
(01:53):
and Sandy Greenberg. Do you know how much I hate
play the nine one one call, especially when you're with me.
Every time I play it, Sandy, I literally get chilled.
She did not fall on a knife twenty times.
Speaker 5 (02:14):
The phone call is chilling every time I hear It's
the way I heard it in the very beginning.
Speaker 6 (02:22):
Let's look at what he sees when he walks in.
You're gonna tell me he didn't see a five or
six inch handle of a knife stuck in my daughter's
chest with her left hand on it, wrapped around a
white towel that completely was unobservable from walking in.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Come on, the whole thing is so fuldy. I'm glad
you mentioned that white towel. Josh and I don't want
to go to Inside Baseball because the three of us, well,
everybody on the panel knows these facts so well. But
for those of you just joining us tonight, Ellen, I
(02:58):
feel like I know Ellen so well now, but I
only met her in death. Ellen, sharing a luxury apartment
with her fiance Sam Goldberg, is found brutally stabbed and
some of us think strangled as well in the short
(03:21):
space of time when her fiance left the apartment to
go in the building's gym to work out. When Josh
that these are Ellen's parents, okay, and you may think
sometimes they seem really calm, you know what they are.
They're exhausted. They've been fighting this fight for years. They've
(03:48):
spent all their energy, all their time, all their savings,
everything trying to prove Ellen did not commit suicide, and
in the last days joining me to explain. John Lucy,
Journalistpenlive dot com and Patrioteese of Harrisburg specializing in true crime,
(04:13):
author of Kill the Story. John, I can't believe we're
right here, right now, We've actually had good news after
all these years of this ridiculous Actually it's not ridiculous.
It's a cover up, a cover up about Ellen's murder.
(04:34):
Tell everyone what has just happened.
Speaker 7 (04:36):
Well, that allegation of a cover up was about to
go to a jury trial in Philadelphia, but in a
stunning reversal, the pathologist Marlon Osborne, who conducted Ellen's autopsy
in twenty eleven and have initially ruled it a homicide,
(04:57):
by twenty knife wounds and then about two months later,
changed it to suicide under pressure from detectives who, according
to the Greenberg lawyers, botched the case from the very beginning,
losing basically all the evidence that was at the scene.
Pressured him to change it to suicide, and he did
(05:18):
on April fourth, twenty eleven. That's where we've been for
fourteen years until earlier this week, when Osborne, in a
stunning reversal, said he was wrong, he would classify the
case as something other than suicide. And he listened to.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
John, John, everything you're saying is correct, but you got
me drink from the fire hydrant. It's just too much
to take in right now. So hold on, I'm going
to dissect everything you said, and everybody on the panel
please jump in. Let me go straight out to Tom Brennan,
longtime family friend who took on this case. Hey Tom,
(06:02):
a congratulations. I almost hate to say it because I
don't want to jinx the case going forward, but it's
stunning to me how now, after fourteen years of the
parents fighting, they just sold their house. They put all
their money, all their time, all their energy into clearing
Ellen's name. Thats all they've got left. This is their
(06:24):
only child, right, and they know she did not commit suicide.
But the fact that's taken Osborne fourteen years to say,
oh yeah, I screwed up. But listen to this Tom.
Speaker 8 (06:40):
In a public statement, doctor Marlon Osborne said, after reviewing
additional information in the Ellen Greenberg case file obtained from
the Philadelphia Police Department, as well as a consult with
doctor Lucy Rourke Adams, a pediatric neuropathologist, he decided to
make the change in his verification. Osborne writes that he
is now unsure of the series of events that happened
(07:00):
that day. He also says he doesn't know whether the
door was forced open as reported, whether Ellen's body was
moved by someone else inside the apartment with her at
or near the time of her death, and the findings
of Lindsey Emery, MD from her neuropathological evaluation of Ellen's
cervical segment sample.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Okay, that's a lot to take in. Let's go back
to the nine to one one call. Listen forty six
one splat Rock Road.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Please Herry, Yes, Oh, I just I went downstairs go
work out. I came back up the door, the lash
my inside. She wasn't she wasn't answering. So after about
a half hour, I decided to break it down. I
see her now, it's on the floor before she's not
she's not responding.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Okay, breath, I can.
Speaker 9 (07:56):
I calm down? How I was going away?
Speaker 4 (08:10):
I don't see her moving.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
No, she was not on her back joining me. Professor Forensics,
Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Fate, death
investigator with over a thousand death investigations under his belt,
star of a hit podcast, Bodybags with Joe Scott Morgan.
Joe Scott, you and I mostly you did a complete
(08:35):
re enact of what happened to Ellen. Okay, she was
propped up. Yes, her rear end was on the floor
in the kitchen, but she was propped up in a
way against the kitchen cabinet, right.
Speaker 10 (08:52):
So yeah, Nancy, you know, back when we did the
recreation of Ellen's apartment, one of the things that we
made note of at that particular time, and this is
it's quite glaring as well, is that she had essentially
a streak of blood that was Remember we have to
frame this and say that she was in a seated
(09:12):
upright position. She had a streak of blood that was
literally running parallel to her shoulders. Viscous fluid or any
kind of fluid doesn't work that way per the laws
of gravity. It flows downward. So at some point tom
she was seated or moved upwards, probably from a position
where she was laying down, and the blood had streaked
(09:35):
from her mouth at that point in time and was
running parallel to her shoulders. And of course something doesn't
fit with that. And I think that any investigator that's
working at the scene, particularly observing a body worth their salt,
would make note of that. Obviously at the beginning, that
would be a huge red flag. You would have to say, well,
(09:56):
how in the world could the blood flow be in
that position relative to the position we're observing her in now.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
And of course, hey, Joe Scott, yes, Joe Scott, I
love the way that John Lucy put it. He refers
to it as the wrong way blood. Listen, we call
that the wrong way blood.
Speaker 7 (10:20):
And it's one of the many anomalies at the crime
scene that was treated as a suicide scene the night
of her death and thus never preserved and never processed.
That is the original sin of this whole case.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
When we're talking about wrong way blood? Okay? Now, why
is jo Scott talking about wrong way blood? When I
asked him, wasn't Ellen sitting up propped back against sitting
on the floor, propped back against sketching cabinets? Okay? He
immediately in his mind he's three steps ahead of everybody else,
went to the wrong way blood. What does that mean?
(10:57):
That means that the blood on Ellen, she's sitting up,
is going like this? Okay? I believe in gravity. I
know about saraizing Newton. So why is the blood not
only going the wrong way across her face for instance,
(11:17):
knows to ear if it doesn't match the way her
body is found? And not only that the blood was dried? Okay?
So how long? John Lucy Hey, let me go to
bene nowur joining us. Beney and I have researched this
(11:38):
case with the help of so many people, including Sandy
and Josh, and we went through every single report, every
single document. Beney now a co author with me of
what happened to Ellen and an American miscarriage of Justice PS.
All of the proceeds are going to National Center Missing
(12:00):
Children be Nay, how long approximately do we think Goldberg,
the fiance was gone from the apartment in the workout room.
Speaker 11 (12:08):
We don't think it was even an hour. We don't
believe it possibly could have been two hours. We don't
believe it was even an hour.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Joining us in addition to Josh and Sandy Greenberg been
an hour, Joscott Morgan, John Lucy to Tom Brennan, what
do you think, Tom? How long was Goldberg out of
the apartment to go to the workout room? And Tom,
I knew you were going to say that, but I
(12:38):
don't know this. Why do you say that? Why do
you think it was forty five minutes?
Speaker 12 (12:42):
Because we could observe him on the security cameras in
the ability where he walked down the hall to go
to the gym, and when he came out out of
the gym. It's on the video taps.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
The stabbing death of twenty having year old Philly teacher
to be reinvestigated as the medical examiner says he was wrong.
The family fights for years to get her suicide ruling changed.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
It all started here.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Listen, Okay, you know how I got Okay, I'm gonna
tell you what to do.
Speaker 11 (13:17):
Okay until they get here.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Yeah, okay, Well with me. Over the fall, I have
you right?
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Okay, so you know, fight on her bank, bear her set.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Gang over for sure.
Speaker 9 (13:32):
Okay, you'll be out by her side.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
Merchant. Listen, you can't freak out. Okay, I'm sorry. After
trying to her shirt will come off as a different Okay.
She stands herself where she's so nice? Oh no, her
narves sticking out? What because its sticking out of her?
Speaker 12 (13:53):
He stands herself.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
I guess you're going it. I don't know. Okay, well,
don't touch it.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Will a jury ever here these nine one one calls. Well,
as of now, they're one inch closer to hearing them
in the last days. A stunning turn of events after
a fourteen year battle. Imagine going through the devastation of
(14:20):
learning your daughter is dead in the midst of planning
a wedding a guy she truly believed she loved he
was mister big Right. Then to find out it was suicide.
Then in the middle of her memorial at the synagogue,
(14:44):
to find out no, it's not suicide, it's homicide. Only
to have the medical examiner go at a closed door
meeting with police and district attorneys who I might add
one of them as ex She's got an immunity in
this so she can't be prosecuted. That stinks to how
(15:04):
I haven't and have it now ruled back to suicide.
To Sandy and Josh Greenberg, who have been through so much,
I mean, hell on Earth, you can find them at
Justice for Ellen, Sandy. Why is it the settlement happens
(15:24):
as you're about to strike a jury after fourteen years
and bring all these people, including the medical examiner, the police,
others in to tell what happened in that closed door meeting,
and then suddenly, oh no, no, no, no no, they
don't want that, and there's a settlement at the midnight hour,
(15:46):
the twelfth hour, the last minute, as the jury is
literally about to be picked. What happens, Sandy the city.
Speaker 5 (15:56):
Back together. I guess that they were not prepared to
really to go to trial. They were hoping that they
would all have high immunity and everyone would get off.
We didn't back down, and they made a proposal, which
Joe will explain to Josh and I. It took a little.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Explanation, explanation.
Speaker 5 (16:22):
It still hasn't completely sunk in, but at least we've
turned the corner.
Speaker 6 (16:30):
I don't see why the city has to do another
examination on a body that's been in the ground for
almost fifteen years.
Speaker 7 (16:39):
But we had to agree to that.
Speaker 6 (16:41):
We had agreed that there are really four options that
the medical examiner come up with, two of which are
homicide and two of which your homicide and unexplained, and
the third one accidental and suicide. We know it's not accidental,
we know it's not suicide, less homicide and undetermined. That's
(17:06):
what the city is going to come up with. Probably,
I can't say for sure anything. I will say that
I still don't trust the city at all.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Well for good reason, Josh, for good reason, you know,
trust the city. So you're telling me, Josh, that Ellen
is going to be exhumed, if I have anything to
say about it, it said.
Speaker 5 (17:29):
The city spokesperson said that the medical examiner will go
through her autopsy file. Big deal cut that out last night.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
I saw that. You know, I'm very curious because Sandy
and Josh, if Benay and I could, with the help
of Joe Scott Morgan and doctor Dupree and others, if
we could go through the file and find all of
these problems and inconsistencies and bruises and bruises to her
(17:59):
strat muscles indicating she was strangled, defensive bruises on her body,
so much evidence that she was killed. If we can
find that, I'd be very surprised if someone else can't
find it. Guys, joining me right now is a very
(18:19):
special guest, and I'll tell you why. Guy DeAndrea is
with us. He's a now a trial lawyer with Laffy Bouci, DeAndrea,
Reich and Ryan. But for my purpose it's so important.
He was in the DA's office at the time they
were looking at Ellen's case, and somehow, after the medical
(18:42):
examiner said oh, yeah, Ellen was murdered, there was a
closed door meeting with a member of the DA's office
and police. That assistant DA has been given immunity in this.
That stinks, guys. Why would a prosecutor who is charged
with upholding the law and always doing the right thing
have to have immunity for what she said or did
(19:05):
in this closed door meeting. Guy to Andrea, you took
a big red flag at the time, and I was
waving it back and forth. I think this is a homicide.
What happened? Guy, and Who was the elected DA at
that time?
Speaker 13 (19:18):
Yes, Nancy, the elected DA at the time with Seth Williams,
I did raise the red flag after doing a thorough
and full investigation that this from my perspective, not based
on opinion, but based on evidence that you went over
copiously today, that she was killed by homicide, period, end
of story. And I proposed that, and the conclusion that
(19:39):
was reached is that it would be changed to homicide
after the neuropathologist, the independent one that was hired, came
up with their conclusions. So long as the conclusions were
that her spinal column was pierced, and in fact it was,
I had left the office, so I thought, as of
twenty seventeen, Nancy, this would be changed. And here we
(20:01):
are in twenty twenty five. As you said on the
twelfth hour, they finally caved.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
I guess a little bit.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
We'll call it, but there's now going to be an
investigation at least, Guy.
Speaker 13 (20:12):
Well, an investigation fourteen years later that showed took place
played frankly in twenty eleven, if not in twenty eleven,
certainly in twenty fifteen, sixteen and seventeen when I was
looking at it saying this isn't right, look at the evidence.
How are we making this conclusion.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Crime Stories with Nancy grace A joining me is renowned
psychologist joining us out of Manhattan TV radio trauma expert.
You can find her at Karenstark dot com. That's Karen
with a Sea if you're looking for her. Karen Starr,
you and I have discussed the old old story of
David and Goliath. Right here you have. It's almost making
(20:59):
me tear up. Karen. You've got Josh and Sandy. You've
got Padrasa and Brennan who've been working for free now forever,
trying to attack this case.
Speaker 12 (21:13):
And this.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Couple, Sandy and Josh are taking on not only the
city of Philadelphia, not only the District Attorney's office, but
the then ag now Governor Josh Shapiro, who had a
chance to open this and did not. I mean, it's
(21:37):
got to be so overwhelming, Karen start and to have
to live with.
Speaker 14 (21:41):
Them for so many years, Dancy knowing that this is
your one and only child, and that there is no
way that she could commit suicide, that she would do that,
it doesn't even make any sense. Really, don't stab themselves.
Most of the time that I take kills or some
thing that was not physicult and how could she do
(22:03):
that to herself? And they had to live with this.
The best thing that ever could have happened is that
they didn't give up, that they had purposed, They focused,
and they were able to do something eventually, because that
kind of grief, it just doesn't go away. It's the
worst thing you could possibly think of. Right your child
(22:23):
is dead.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
A shocking admission by the pathologist and the stabbing death
of Philly teacher Ellen Greenberg the case to be reopened.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Okay, Okay, I'm.
Speaker 14 (22:39):
Going to tell you what to do.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Okay, you'll her five.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
You can't freak out.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
I'm trying to Her shirt won't come off into a zipper.
She stabs herself.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Wait she fell knife?
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Oh no, her nice checking out, a nice sticking out
of her. Hunter does he stands her south? I guess so.
I don't know where she's telling it. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Okay, well, don't check it. And that is where the
specter of suicide first rears its ugly head, right there
in the fiance's nine to one one call. She stabbed herself,
she fell on a knife. Joining me. In addition to
(23:44):
Ellen's parents, a guy who has been on this case
from the very beginning, and I stuck with it. John
Lucy is with me Panlive dot Com, Patriot News, Harrisburg,
also specialty true crime author Kill the story John Early.
When we first started talking tonight, Josh Ellen's dad brought
(24:08):
up a pristine white dish trag that Ellen was holding
in one hand, no blood on it at all. Now,
let me understand this, John. So there's a blizzard that day.
She leaves her little elementary school students early. Then she
calls all the parents to make sure they get home.
(24:29):
She stops geffer gas, gets her car ready in case
she needs to go somewhere in the snow, comes home
and starts making I guess lunch or dinner, a big
fruit salad, and in the middle of the fruit salad,
she goes, oh, to hell with this, I'm gonna kill myself.
That's the theory, right, And yeah, that's the theory.
Speaker 7 (24:50):
And that was the operating assumption of the people who
responded on that snowy night. The detectives and there was
a representative from the emy's office. They bought into that
narrative of suicide. And because of that, there was no
forensics the crime scene. The scene was not preserved as
a crime scene because suicide is not a crime. It
(25:12):
is a crime, but it's against yourself. So that's why
this case never went anywhere. Even after Osborne rolled it
a homicide. The detectives went back a couple of days
later with a search warrant and a forensics team, but
the place had been sanitized, the entire apartment.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
There was nothing left. There was nothing to investigate.
Speaker 7 (25:34):
And you know, the one thing about this case where
we're at now, Yes, theme is going to look at
the manner of death one more time, but also, I mean,
there's a homicide that has yet to be solved here
that is now, who's going to do it? The FBI,
the AG's office, the county district attorney where it resides,
(25:56):
and is currently an evry No no no, no, no.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
No, no, no Padraza help me out here. We cannot
have the Pennsylvania Attorney General's office take this because they've
got too many connections to the then AG Shapiro. Okay,
that can't be typically everybody when we're talking about the
AG that's like the top cop within the state. There's
(26:20):
also an AG AG for the US government, right for
the United States, Every state has an attorney general. So
if you think your local DA is screwing up, is falsifying,
is not doing their job, you take it up to
the top cop, the attorney general. Right the Attorney General
at the time of this incident was Shapiro. He's now
(26:42):
the government. It's got to be the Fed's Pa Draza.
There are too many connections with the AG's office, and
I'm not impugning integrity on any of them. It's just
like I say, Hey, Jackie, I want you to investigate me.
We're friends, we work together every day. That has the
stink of impropriety. Can't do that, well, that's agreed, Nancy.
Speaker 15 (27:07):
And ideally what we like to do is to have
a special prosecutor, especially assigned to the case given its history,
one who is acceptable not only to the family, but
also has a reputable reputation as a prosecutor within the
resources of the powers of grand jury, etc.
Speaker 13 (27:24):
At their disposal to go forward.
Speaker 16 (27:26):
Now, whether that is a federal prosecutor or a state prosecutor,
we don't really fancy either one as long as they're objective, confident,
and committee.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
But as Brennan, Pedraza and I are discussing, if this
case is ruled homicide, which it should be. That opens
this up to a criminal investigation if the district attorney
has the backbone to do it, and if not, maybe
(27:58):
an independent secuter will. Now that leads me to the
specter of a cover up. Listen.
Speaker 17 (28:08):
The second suit, which was filed in twenty twenty two
and slated for trial this week at City Hall, alleged
the investigation into Greenberg's death was embarrassingly botched and resulted
in a cover up by Philadelphia authorities. It sought monetary
damages for intentional infliction of emotional distress against several city
employees who were involved in the investigation.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
Here with her, Yeah, we're the only one here. No, no,
I went downstairs to work out, and when I came
back off the door with a lash, you know it
wasn't you know. We walked from the inside and I'm
yelling no, no, no, no, no, no break in no
(28:55):
no found of breaking. It will be when you get
you're glad to break the flash up. Okay, right, Oh
my god, oh my god, all right.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
To beney now, are joining me co author with me
of what happened to Ellen? All pre proceeds going to
national Center Missing Exploited Children Beney. Also, mister Goldberg stated
that he asked the front desk security to come with
(29:34):
him when he knocked down the door, and that he
had a witness the front desk security person. Correct, yes, No,
that's correct. Okay. Isn't it true that we located the
front desk security person and that security person signed an
(29:59):
f David? And what did the security person say? In
the affidavit?
Speaker 11 (30:03):
He said he was asked to accompany Sam and told
him absolutely he could not, that he could not leave
his desk, and that he absolutely did not accompany him.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
He was not at that door.
Speaker 11 (30:18):
He stated that over and over and over again in
that affidavit.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Another interesting theory emerging. Listen.
Speaker 8 (30:25):
Doctor Greenberg is walking through the courthouse and tells some
reporters Ellen, considering she was found with twenty knife wounds
in her head, neck, back in chest, Doctor Greenberg says
he thinks his daughter was strangled. Forensic pathologist doctor Wayne
k Ross is commissioned by the Greenbergs to review the case.
Doctor Ross says there's evidence of strangulation. Ross says there's
(30:46):
a mark over the front of the neck and in
the strap muscles over the right side of the neck,
claiming these patterns are compatible with a manual strangulation. Ross
also points out the number of bruises over different parts
of Greenberg's body are consistent with the repeated beatings. He writes,
it is my opinion that the investigating authority should pursue
this case as a homicide. It is further my opinion,
to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, that the manner
(31:08):
of death is a homicide. The scene findings were indicative
of a homicide.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace to Joseph Scott Morgan joined me,
death investigator at Professor Forensis Jacksonville State University. Of course,
I'm just a lay person, right. But she bled If
she were already dead from strangulation, I don't think that
would have been copious amounts of blood. Number one, Number two,
There is evidence of strangulation, particularly specifically, the bruising is
(31:45):
sub under the skin. Bruising under strap muscles is clearly strangling.
She doesn't have to be strangled dead to undergo strangulation
and then a stabbing. Why can't both be true?
Speaker 10 (32:03):
I'm going to say something very plainly here, Nancy and
I don't care who hears it or what they think
about it. This has all of the earmarks of what
we refer to as overkill. Anytime you have an intimate
event like this, and when I say intimate, I'm talking
about from a homicide perspective where you have twenty two
(32:23):
zero stab wounds to an individual. These are things that
we see, Nancy, when there is a tremendous amount of passion.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Over all of my.
Speaker 10 (32:32):
Career working at two major corner and medical examiner's offices,
I have never seen, never seen a case where I've
had twenty self inflicted stab wounds to an individual. And
then we come to these anomalies on the neck that
Josh has pointed out, you had external and right there
(32:55):
you can see it very plainly. You have an external
manifestation of these anomalies. Nancy. This is not mentioned anywhere
in the autopsy report. And one more thing, when you
have this idea of an intimate overkill event, particularly with
(33:15):
a female, one of the things that you're going to
do is in the neck. In the neck, and there's
only cursory mention of an absence of hemorrhage, which is
striking to me. In the autopsy report, the neck is
very complex. Relative to this network of muscles you had
mentioned the strap muscles. You literally at autopsy, and I
(33:37):
participated in this hundreds of times. You literally dissect each
muscle group and you flip it back and you look
at it both on the anterior that means the front
section and posterior the back section, and that gives you
an indication as to how much pressure was applied to
the neck. Now, she's already in a compromised position where
(33:59):
she's been so freaking traumatized relative to these knife wounds,
it would not take too much to push this precious
angel over the edge relative to her ability to uptake oxygen?
Do you hear what I'm saying? So all of these things,
can you do have concurrence here? I'm just amazed, Nancy,
(34:22):
that there is no mission of this in the autopsy report.
As a matter of fact, if you look at the
internal where it's listed as internal section, it's just a
passing thing to state that there is nothing there. And
one more thing and I'll shut my mouth. Over the
course of my career, I have never seen a case
(34:46):
where an emme changed the manner of death. Three times
I've seen it happen most of the time. What happens
is you go with undetermined, then you go to suicide,
you go to undetermined, then you go to homsid undetermined,
then you go to accident. It ain't what happened here.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
This is mind blow up Discott.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
In all the years I have investigated, prosecuted, and covered homicides,
never once, never, once have I seen a COEOD cause
of death be changed like this. Usually I see a
determined to homicide. If there's any change at all, usually
they know at the get go what's happening now? I
was following along everything you just said. But can I
(35:27):
boil it down for you and get a simple yes? No,
Ellen was stabbed twenty times in the back, the back
of the neck, the back of the head, covered in bruises. Yes,
that's not suicide.
Speaker 10 (35:41):
Yes, no, no, it's not suicide. I'll plainly say that.
Speaker 8 (35:44):
The Ellen Greenberg evidence includes searches allegedly made by Greenberg
using Google to research suicide methods. The searches were not
added to the Greenberg evidence file until years after her death,
and Guy DeAndrea says he knows what was in the
file and Google searches of suicide by Ellen Greenberg was
not in the evidence file with me?
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Is Guy DeAndrea, who was in the District Attorney's office
at the time and reviewed with a fine tooth comb
all the evidence, Guy, rapid fire. Isn't it true that
Ellen's devices, her laptop and more were taken from the
crime scene by members of the Goldberg family? Is that true?
Speaker 4 (36:26):
True?
Speaker 1 (36:28):
All of those devices were returned? Were they not? After
being requested? They were? Isn't it true that that is
not SOP standard operating procedure for it is to be
taken from a scene. But wait, in this case, it
was a suicide, so apparently there was nothing wrong with it. Yes, no, no,
(36:50):
it is not standing operating procedure. But this was a suicide,
so possibly police didn't think there was anything wrong with it.
To Sandy and Josh Green, these devices belonged to your daughter.
Were you asked if Goldberg family members could take them? No?
What did you have to do to get them back?
(37:10):
In a nutshell, big borrow and steel? Okay, but you
did get them back. Now Here is my question to
Guide DeAndrea. You state you carefully examined the entire file
and there was no evidence on her devices, any device
that she was looking up manners of suicide. Is that true?
Speaker 13 (37:33):
That's true, Nancy. There was no reports of searching for suicide.
But more importantly, the computers were examined by the Federal
Laboratory our CFL, and their report details that nothing of
significance as it relates to suicide was found, meaning plain language,
no searches for suicide.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
So you search the FBI search. There was nothing in
the police files or the investigation files about her searching
for suicide. But y years later these searches emerge. That's
right to Joseph pedraza attorney for the Greenberg family, partner
LAMB mccarlan, Joe, I'm stunned only when a jury was
(38:17):
literally being struck. Okay, you know, I've seen it a
million times. When they look at the jury, they're like, Okay,
I'll plead or I'll do a settlement. Because the chickens
have come home to roost. It's happening. Osbourne would have
to take the stand and everyone would have to explain
why they covered up his failure. Why what happened in
(38:42):
that meeting. That's what I want to know. What happened
in that meeting with cops, the ADA, and Osborne, the
medical examiner, they would have to under oath say what happened,
and instead of doing that, they settled. My question is
what now can and we get this too a criminal
investigation by an independent investigator.
Speaker 16 (39:05):
We will and we will take every measure of that
is possible to get it there. And failing to get
appropriate response by a prosecutorial authority or a law enforcement authority,
we're going to pursue c evinly. We're not letting this end.
Speaker 13 (39:20):
We've gotten the ball to the goal line.
Speaker 16 (39:23):
Now the time is to hold somebody responsible for this murder,
a massacre of this child.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
To Josh and Sandy Greenberg joining us who have been
through so much, all out of love for Ellen, what next, Sandy?
What next? We're going to go ahead.
Speaker 6 (39:44):
I'm not Sandy. There's something I would love to bring up.
I'm sorry, Nancy. The court that turned us down for
not handing standing not having standing. The second the last
paragraph of the second page, the examination by the medical examiner,
the district attorney, and the detectives were faulty. That's by
(40:06):
a judge.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Battle Then they.
Speaker 6 (40:09):
Went on for thirty to thirty pages saying why we
should have justice for our daughter that's what paved the
way to the Supreme courts. Dancy, I'm sorry, you know what, Josh,
You're right.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
No, no, no, no, every fact is so important. You're right.
A court said the investigation was faulty. So now what
are they going to do? Sandy? What do you think
will happen next? What do you want?
Speaker 5 (40:39):
I want to see the death certificate changed to homicide.
We'll see how quickly that ocurse it occurs. Honestly, I
don't have a lot of legal ease, so I don't
really know where this is going to take us, but
(41:03):
I feel that we made.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Progress.
Speaker 6 (41:10):
It's most important to us that this has done fair
and legal, unlike what happened to our daughter.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
To Sandy and Josh, please know, I know it feels
like it, but you are not alone tonight. When we
normally remember a fallen American hero, our heroes tonight are
(41:38):
Sandy and Josh Greenberg. Parents, out of such deep love
for their daughter, have sacrificed it all the last fourteen
years of their life, their livelihoods, their money. They just
sold their home and now they are true David battling Goliath.
(42:06):
Nancy Gray signing off, goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a beautiful young bride to
be stabbed twenty times, including in the back, the back
of the head, the back of the neck. Ruled suicide. Tonight,
(00:22):
her parents force this case to be reopened. I'm Nancy Grace.
This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
A shunking admission by the pathologist, and the stabbing death
of Philly teacher Ellen Greenberg. The case to be reopened.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
It all starts here. Listen my part, she answers on the.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Floor with flood everywhere. But oh no, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
I can tell you.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Does you have to calm yourself down in order to
get you somehow?
Speaker 4 (01:04):
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. She I don't know. I'm looking
at her right now. I can't see anything.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
There's nothing broken.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
She's leaped, Ellie.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
You don't know where she's bleeding from from.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
I think her head everywhere everywhere.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
She might have fallen, you know what happened. She may
have slipped his blood on the on the table.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Her piece is a little purple.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Okay, hold off.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
For rest for her on the phone.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
May have fallen, may have fallen on a knife twenty times,
may have slipped straight out to very special guests joining
us tonight. Ellen's parents that I now call friends, Josh
(01:53):
and Sandy Greenberg. Do you know how much I hate
play the nine one one call, especially when you're with me.
Every time I play it, Sandy, I literally get chilled.
She did not fall on a knife twenty times.
Speaker 5 (02:14):
The phone call is chilling every time I hear It's
the way I heard it in the very beginning.
Speaker 6 (02:22):
Let's look at what he sees when he walks in.
You're gonna tell me he didn't see a five or
six inch handle of a knife stuck in my daughter's
chest with her left hand on it, wrapped around a
white towel that completely was unobservable from walking in.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Come on, the whole thing is so fuldy. I'm glad
you mentioned that white towel. Josh and I don't want
to go to Inside Baseball because the three of us, well,
everybody on the panel knows these facts so well. But
for those of you just joining us tonight, Ellen, I
(02:58):
feel like I know Ellen so well now, but I
only met her in death. Ellen, sharing a luxury apartment
with her fiance Sam Goldberg, is found brutally stabbed and
some of us think strangled as well in the short
(03:21):
space of time when her fiance left the apartment to
go in the building's gym to work out. When Josh
that these are Ellen's parents, okay, and you may think
sometimes they seem really calm, you know what they are.
They're exhausted. They've been fighting this fight for years. They've
(03:48):
spent all their energy, all their time, all their savings,
everything trying to prove Ellen did not commit suicide, and
in the last days joining me to explain. John Lucy,
Journalistpenlive dot com and Patrioteese of Harrisburg specializing in true crime,
(04:13):
author of Kill the Story. John, I can't believe we're
right here, right now, We've actually had good news after
all these years of this ridiculous Actually it's not ridiculous.
It's a cover up, a cover up about Ellen's murder.
(04:34):
Tell everyone what has just happened.
Speaker 7 (04:36):
Well, that allegation of a cover up was about to
go to a jury trial in Philadelphia, but in a
stunning reversal, the pathologist Marlon Osborne, who conducted Ellen's autopsy
in twenty eleven and have initially ruled it a homicide,
(04:57):
by twenty knife wounds and then about two months later,
changed it to suicide under pressure from detectives who, according
to the Greenberg lawyers, botched the case from the very beginning,
losing basically all the evidence that was at the scene.
Pressured him to change it to suicide, and he did
(05:18):
on April fourth, twenty eleven. That's where we've been for
fourteen years until earlier this week, when Osborne, in a
stunning reversal, said he was wrong, he would classify the
case as something other than suicide. And he listened to.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
John, John, everything you're saying is correct, but you got
me drink from the fire hydrant. It's just too much
to take in right now. So hold on, I'm going
to dissect everything you said, and everybody on the panel
please jump in. Let me go straight out to Tom Brennan,
longtime family friend who took on this case. Hey Tom,
(06:02):
a congratulations. I almost hate to say it because I
don't want to jinx the case going forward, but it's
stunning to me how now, after fourteen years of the
parents fighting, they just sold their house. They put all
their money, all their time, all their energy into clearing
Ellen's name. Thats all they've got left. This is their
(06:24):
only child, right, and they know she did not commit suicide.
But the fact that's taken Osborne fourteen years to say,
oh yeah, I screwed up. But listen to this Tom.
Speaker 8 (06:40):
In a public statement, doctor Marlon Osborne said, after reviewing
additional information in the Ellen Greenberg case file obtained from
the Philadelphia Police Department, as well as a consult with
doctor Lucy Rourke Adams, a pediatric neuropathologist, he decided to
make the change in his verification. Osborne writes that he
is now unsure of the series of events that happened
(07:00):
that day. He also says he doesn't know whether the
door was forced open as reported, whether Ellen's body was
moved by someone else inside the apartment with her at
or near the time of her death, and the findings
of Lindsey Emery, MD from her neuropathological evaluation of Ellen's
cervical segment sample.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Okay, that's a lot to take in. Let's go back
to the nine to one one call. Listen forty six
one splat Rock Road.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Please Herry, Yes, Oh, I just I went downstairs go
work out. I came back up the door, the lash
my inside. She wasn't she wasn't answering. So after about
a half hour, I decided to break it down. I
see her now, it's on the floor before she's not
she's not responding.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Okay, breath, I can.
Speaker 9 (07:56):
I calm down? How I was going away?
Speaker 4 (08:10):
I don't see her moving.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
No, she was not on her back joining me. Professor Forensics,
Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Fate, death
investigator with over a thousand death investigations under his belt,
star of a hit podcast, Bodybags with Joe Scott Morgan.
Joe Scott, you and I mostly you did a complete
(08:35):
re enact of what happened to Ellen. Okay, she was
propped up. Yes, her rear end was on the floor
in the kitchen, but she was propped up in a
way against the kitchen cabinet, right.
Speaker 10 (08:52):
So yeah, Nancy, you know, back when we did the
recreation of Ellen's apartment, one of the things that we
made note of at that particular time, and this is
it's quite glaring as well, is that she had essentially
a streak of blood that was Remember we have to
frame this and say that she was in a seated
(09:12):
upright position. She had a streak of blood that was
literally running parallel to her shoulders. Viscous fluid or any
kind of fluid doesn't work that way per the laws
of gravity. It flows downward. So at some point tom
she was seated or moved upwards, probably from a position
where she was laying down, and the blood had streaked
(09:35):
from her mouth at that point in time and was
running parallel to her shoulders. And of course something doesn't
fit with that. And I think that any investigator that's
working at the scene, particularly observing a body worth their salt,
would make note of that. Obviously at the beginning, that
would be a huge red flag. You would have to say, well,
(09:56):
how in the world could the blood flow be in
that position relative to the position we're observing her in now.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
And of course, hey, Joe Scott, yes, Joe Scott, I
love the way that John Lucy put it. He refers
to it as the wrong way blood. Listen, we call
that the wrong way blood.
Speaker 7 (10:20):
And it's one of the many anomalies at the crime
scene that was treated as a suicide scene the night
of her death and thus never preserved and never processed.
That is the original sin of this whole case.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
When we're talking about wrong way blood? Okay? Now, why
is jo Scott talking about wrong way blood? When I
asked him, wasn't Ellen sitting up propped back against sitting
on the floor, propped back against sketching cabinets? Okay? He
immediately in his mind he's three steps ahead of everybody else,
went to the wrong way blood. What does that mean?
(10:57):
That means that the blood on Ellen, she's sitting up,
is going like this? Okay? I believe in gravity. I
know about saraizing Newton. So why is the blood not
only going the wrong way across her face for instance,
(11:17):
knows to ear if it doesn't match the way her
body is found? And not only that the blood was dried? Okay?
So how long? John Lucy Hey, let me go to
bene nowur joining us. Beney and I have researched this
(11:38):
case with the help of so many people, including Sandy
and Josh, and we went through every single report, every
single document. Beney now a co author with me of
what happened to Ellen and an American miscarriage of Justice PS.
All of the proceeds are going to National Center Missing
(12:00):
Children be Nay, how long approximately do we think Goldberg,
the fiance was gone from the apartment in the workout room.
Speaker 11 (12:08):
We don't think it was even an hour. We don't
believe it possibly could have been two hours. We don't
believe it was even an hour.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Joining us in addition to Josh and Sandy Greenberg been
an hour, Joscott Morgan, John Lucy to Tom Brennan, what
do you think, Tom? How long was Goldberg out of
the apartment to go to the workout room? And Tom,
I knew you were going to say that, but I
(12:38):
don't know this. Why do you say that? Why do
you think it was forty five minutes?
Speaker 12 (12:42):
Because we could observe him on the security cameras in
the ability where he walked down the hall to go
to the gym, and when he came out out of
the gym. It's on the video taps.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
The stabbing death of twenty having year old Philly teacher
to be reinvestigated as the medical examiner says he was wrong.
The family fights for years to get her suicide ruling changed.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
It all started here.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Listen, Okay, you know how I got Okay, I'm gonna
tell you what to do.
Speaker 11 (13:17):
Okay until they get here.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Yeah, okay, Well with me. Over the fall, I have
you right?
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Okay, so you know, fight on her bank, bear her set.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Gang over for sure.
Speaker 9 (13:32):
Okay, you'll be out by her side.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
Merchant. Listen, you can't freak out. Okay, I'm sorry. After
trying to her shirt will come off as a different Okay.
She stands herself where she's so nice? Oh no, her
narves sticking out? What because its sticking out of her?
Speaker 12 (13:53):
He stands herself.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
I guess you're going it. I don't know. Okay, well,
don't touch it.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Will a jury ever here these nine one one calls. Well,
as of now, they're one inch closer to hearing them
in the last days. A stunning turn of events after
a fourteen year battle. Imagine going through the devastation of
(14:20):
learning your daughter is dead in the midst of planning
a wedding a guy she truly believed she loved he
was mister big Right. Then to find out it was suicide.
Then in the middle of her memorial at the synagogue,
(14:44):
to find out no, it's not suicide, it's homicide. Only
to have the medical examiner go at a closed door
meeting with police and district attorneys who I might add
one of them as ex She's got an immunity in
this so she can't be prosecuted. That stinks to how
(15:04):
I haven't and have it now ruled back to suicide.
To Sandy and Josh Greenberg, who have been through so much,
I mean, hell on Earth, you can find them at
Justice for Ellen, Sandy. Why is it the settlement happens
(15:24):
as you're about to strike a jury after fourteen years
and bring all these people, including the medical examiner, the police,
others in to tell what happened in that closed door meeting,
and then suddenly, oh no, no, no, no no, they
don't want that, and there's a settlement at the midnight hour,
(15:46):
the twelfth hour, the last minute, as the jury is
literally about to be picked. What happens, Sandy the city.
Speaker 5 (15:56):
Back together. I guess that they were not prepared to
really to go to trial. They were hoping that they
would all have high immunity and everyone would get off.
We didn't back down, and they made a proposal, which
Joe will explain to Josh and I. It took a little.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Explanation, explanation.
Speaker 5 (16:22):
It still hasn't completely sunk in, but at least we've
turned the corner.
Speaker 6 (16:30):
I don't see why the city has to do another
examination on a body that's been in the ground for
almost fifteen years.
Speaker 7 (16:39):
But we had to agree to that.
Speaker 6 (16:41):
We had agreed that there are really four options that
the medical examiner come up with, two of which are
homicide and two of which your homicide and unexplained, and
the third one accidental and suicide. We know it's not accidental,
we know it's not suicide, less homicide and undetermined. That's
(17:06):
what the city is going to come up with. Probably,
I can't say for sure anything. I will say that
I still don't trust the city at all.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Well for good reason, Josh, for good reason, you know,
trust the city. So you're telling me, Josh, that Ellen
is going to be exhumed, if I have anything to
say about it, it said.
Speaker 5 (17:29):
The city spokesperson said that the medical examiner will go
through her autopsy file. Big deal cut that out last night.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
I saw that. You know, I'm very curious because Sandy
and Josh, if Benay and I could, with the help
of Joe Scott Morgan and doctor Dupree and others, if
we could go through the file and find all of
these problems and inconsistencies and bruises and bruises to her
(17:59):
strat muscles indicating she was strangled, defensive bruises on her body,
so much evidence that she was killed. If we can
find that, I'd be very surprised if someone else can't
find it. Guys, joining me right now is a very
(18:19):
special guest, and I'll tell you why. Guy DeAndrea is
with us. He's a now a trial lawyer with Laffy Bouci, DeAndrea,
Reich and Ryan. But for my purpose it's so important.
He was in the DA's office at the time they
were looking at Ellen's case, and somehow, after the medical
(18:42):
examiner said oh, yeah, Ellen was murdered, there was a
closed door meeting with a member of the DA's office
and police. That assistant DA has been given immunity in this.
That stinks, guys. Why would a prosecutor who is charged
with upholding the law and always doing the right thing
have to have immunity for what she said or did
(19:05):
in this closed door meeting. Guy to Andrea, you took
a big red flag at the time, and I was
waving it back and forth. I think this is a homicide.
What happened? Guy, and Who was the elected DA at
that time?
Speaker 13 (19:18):
Yes, Nancy, the elected DA at the time with Seth Williams,
I did raise the red flag after doing a thorough
and full investigation that this from my perspective, not based
on opinion, but based on evidence that you went over
copiously today, that she was killed by homicide, period, end
of story. And I proposed that, and the conclusion that
(19:39):
was reached is that it would be changed to homicide
after the neuropathologist, the independent one that was hired, came
up with their conclusions. So long as the conclusions were
that her spinal column was pierced, and in fact it was,
I had left the office, so I thought, as of
twenty seventeen, Nancy, this would be changed. And here we
(20:01):
are in twenty twenty five. As you said on the
twelfth hour, they finally caved.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
I guess a little bit.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
We'll call it, but there's now going to be an
investigation at least, Guy.
Speaker 13 (20:12):
Well, an investigation fourteen years later that showed took place
played frankly in twenty eleven, if not in twenty eleven,
certainly in twenty fifteen, sixteen and seventeen when I was
looking at it saying this isn't right, look at the evidence.
How are we making this conclusion.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Crime Stories with Nancy grace A joining me is renowned
psychologist joining us out of Manhattan TV radio trauma expert.
You can find her at Karenstark dot com. That's Karen
with a Sea if you're looking for her. Karen Starr,
you and I have discussed the old old story of
David and Goliath. Right here you have. It's almost making
(20:59):
me tear up. Karen. You've got Josh and Sandy. You've
got Padrasa and Brennan who've been working for free now forever,
trying to attack this case.
Speaker 12 (21:13):
And this.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Couple, Sandy and Josh are taking on not only the
city of Philadelphia, not only the District Attorney's office, but
the then ag now Governor Josh Shapiro, who had a
chance to open this and did not. I mean, it's
(21:37):
got to be so overwhelming, Karen start and to have
to live with.
Speaker 14 (21:41):
Them for so many years, Dancy knowing that this is
your one and only child, and that there is no
way that she could commit suicide, that she would do that,
it doesn't even make any sense. Really, don't stab themselves.
Most of the time that I take kills or some
thing that was not physicult and how could she do
(22:03):
that to herself? And they had to live with this.
The best thing that ever could have happened is that
they didn't give up, that they had purposed, They focused,
and they were able to do something eventually, because that
kind of grief, it just doesn't go away. It's the
worst thing you could possibly think of. Right your child
(22:23):
is dead.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
A shocking admission by the pathologist and the stabbing death
of Philly teacher Ellen Greenberg the case to be reopened.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Okay, Okay, I'm.
Speaker 14 (22:39):
Going to tell you what to do.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Okay, you'll her five.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
You can't freak out.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
I'm trying to Her shirt won't come off into a zipper.
She stabs herself.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Wait she fell knife?
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Oh no, her nice checking out, a nice sticking out
of her. Hunter does he stands her south? I guess so.
I don't know where she's telling it. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Okay, well, don't check it. And that is where the
specter of suicide first rears its ugly head, right there
in the fiance's nine to one one call. She stabbed herself,
she fell on a knife. Joining me. In addition to
(23:44):
Ellen's parents, a guy who has been on this case
from the very beginning, and I stuck with it. John
Lucy is with me Panlive dot Com, Patriot News, Harrisburg,
also specialty true crime author Kill the story John Early.
When we first started talking tonight, Josh Ellen's dad brought
(24:08):
up a pristine white dish trag that Ellen was holding
in one hand, no blood on it at all. Now,
let me understand this, John. So there's a blizzard that day.
She leaves her little elementary school students early. Then she
calls all the parents to make sure they get home.
(24:29):
She stops geffer gas, gets her car ready in case
she needs to go somewhere in the snow, comes home
and starts making I guess lunch or dinner, a big
fruit salad, and in the middle of the fruit salad,
she goes, oh, to hell with this, I'm gonna kill myself.
That's the theory, right, And yeah, that's the theory.
Speaker 7 (24:50):
And that was the operating assumption of the people who
responded on that snowy night. The detectives and there was
a representative from the emy's office. They bought into that
narrative of suicide. And because of that, there was no
forensics the crime scene. The scene was not preserved as
a crime scene because suicide is not a crime. It
(25:12):
is a crime, but it's against yourself. So that's why
this case never went anywhere. Even after Osborne rolled it
a homicide. The detectives went back a couple of days
later with a search warrant and a forensics team, but
the place had been sanitized, the entire apartment.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
There was nothing left. There was nothing to investigate.
Speaker 7 (25:34):
And you know, the one thing about this case where
we're at now, Yes, theme is going to look at
the manner of death one more time, but also, I mean,
there's a homicide that has yet to be solved here
that is now, who's going to do it? The FBI,
the AG's office, the county district attorney where it resides,
(25:56):
and is currently an evry No no no, no, no.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
No, no, no Padraza help me out here. We cannot
have the Pennsylvania Attorney General's office take this because they've
got too many connections to the then AG Shapiro. Okay,
that can't be typically everybody when we're talking about the
AG that's like the top cop within the state. There's
(26:20):
also an AG AG for the US government, right for
the United States, Every state has an attorney general. So
if you think your local DA is screwing up, is falsifying,
is not doing their job, you take it up to
the top cop, the attorney general. Right the Attorney General
at the time of this incident was Shapiro. He's now
(26:42):
the government. It's got to be the Fed's Pa Draza.
There are too many connections with the AG's office, and
I'm not impugning integrity on any of them. It's just
like I say, Hey, Jackie, I want you to investigate me.
We're friends, we work together every day. That has the
stink of impropriety. Can't do that, well, that's agreed, Nancy.
Speaker 15 (27:07):
And ideally what we like to do is to have
a special prosecutor, especially assigned to the case given its history,
one who is acceptable not only to the family, but
also has a reputable reputation as a prosecutor within the
resources of the powers of grand jury, etc.
Speaker 13 (27:24):
At their disposal to go forward.
Speaker 16 (27:26):
Now, whether that is a federal prosecutor or a state prosecutor,
we don't really fancy either one as long as they're objective, confident,
and committee.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
But as Brennan, Pedraza and I are discussing, if this
case is ruled homicide, which it should be. That opens
this up to a criminal investigation if the district attorney
has the backbone to do it, and if not, maybe
(27:58):
an independent secuter will. Now that leads me to the
specter of a cover up. Listen.
Speaker 17 (28:08):
The second suit, which was filed in twenty twenty two
and slated for trial this week at City Hall, alleged
the investigation into Greenberg's death was embarrassingly botched and resulted
in a cover up by Philadelphia authorities. It sought monetary
damages for intentional infliction of emotional distress against several city
employees who were involved in the investigation.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
Here with her, Yeah, we're the only one here. No, no,
I went downstairs to work out, and when I came
back off the door with a lash, you know it
wasn't you know. We walked from the inside and I'm
yelling no, no, no, no, no, no break in no
(28:55):
no found of breaking. It will be when you get
you're glad to break the flash up. Okay, right, Oh
my god, oh my god, all right.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
To beney now, are joining me co author with me
of what happened to Ellen? All pre proceeds going to
national Center Missing Exploited Children Beney. Also, mister Goldberg stated
that he asked the front desk security to come with
(29:34):
him when he knocked down the door, and that he
had a witness the front desk security person. Correct, yes, No,
that's correct. Okay. Isn't it true that we located the
front desk security person and that security person signed an
(29:59):
f David? And what did the security person say? In
the affidavit?
Speaker 11 (30:03):
He said he was asked to accompany Sam and told
him absolutely he could not, that he could not leave
his desk, and that he absolutely did not accompany him.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
He was not at that door.
Speaker 11 (30:18):
He stated that over and over and over again in
that affidavit.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Another interesting theory emerging. Listen.
Speaker 8 (30:25):
Doctor Greenberg is walking through the courthouse and tells some
reporters Ellen, considering she was found with twenty knife wounds
in her head, neck, back in chest, Doctor Greenberg says
he thinks his daughter was strangled. Forensic pathologist doctor Wayne
k Ross is commissioned by the Greenbergs to review the case.
Doctor Ross says there's evidence of strangulation. Ross says there's
(30:46):
a mark over the front of the neck and in
the strap muscles over the right side of the neck,
claiming these patterns are compatible with a manual strangulation. Ross
also points out the number of bruises over different parts
of Greenberg's body are consistent with the repeated beatings. He writes,
it is my opinion that the investigating authority should pursue
this case as a homicide. It is further my opinion,
to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, that the manner
(31:08):
of death is a homicide. The scene findings were indicative
of a homicide.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace to Joseph Scott Morgan joined me,
death investigator at Professor Forensis Jacksonville State University. Of course,
I'm just a lay person, right. But she bled If
she were already dead from strangulation, I don't think that
would have been copious amounts of blood. Number one, Number two,
There is evidence of strangulation, particularly specifically, the bruising is
(31:45):
sub under the skin. Bruising under strap muscles is clearly strangling.
She doesn't have to be strangled dead to undergo strangulation
and then a stabbing. Why can't both be true?
Speaker 10 (32:03):
I'm going to say something very plainly here, Nancy and
I don't care who hears it or what they think
about it. This has all of the earmarks of what
we refer to as overkill. Anytime you have an intimate
event like this, and when I say intimate, I'm talking
about from a homicide perspective where you have twenty two
(32:23):
zero stab wounds to an individual. These are things that
we see, Nancy, when there is a tremendous amount of passion.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Over all of my.
Speaker 10 (32:32):
Career working at two major corner and medical examiner's offices,
I have never seen, never seen a case where I've
had twenty self inflicted stab wounds to an individual. And
then we come to these anomalies on the neck that
Josh has pointed out, you had external and right there
(32:55):
you can see it very plainly. You have an external
manifestation of these anomalies. Nancy. This is not mentioned anywhere
in the autopsy report. And one more thing, when you
have this idea of an intimate overkill event, particularly with
(33:15):
a female, one of the things that you're going to
do is in the neck. In the neck, and there's
only cursory mention of an absence of hemorrhage, which is
striking to me. In the autopsy report, the neck is
very complex. Relative to this network of muscles you had
mentioned the strap muscles. You literally at autopsy, and I
(33:37):
participated in this hundreds of times. You literally dissect each
muscle group and you flip it back and you look
at it both on the anterior that means the front
section and posterior the back section, and that gives you
an indication as to how much pressure was applied to
the neck. Now, she's already in a compromised position where
(33:59):
she's been so freaking traumatized relative to these knife wounds,
it would not take too much to push this precious
angel over the edge relative to her ability to uptake oxygen?
Do you hear what I'm saying? So all of these things,
can you do have concurrence here? I'm just amazed, Nancy,
(34:22):
that there is no mission of this in the autopsy report.
As a matter of fact, if you look at the
internal where it's listed as internal section, it's just a
passing thing to state that there is nothing there. And
one more thing and I'll shut my mouth. Over the
course of my career, I have never seen a case
(34:46):
where an emme changed the manner of death. Three times
I've seen it happen most of the time. What happens
is you go with undetermined, then you go to suicide,
you go to undetermined, then you go to homsid undetermined,
then you go to accident. It ain't what happened here.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
This is mind blow up Discott.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
In all the years I have investigated, prosecuted, and covered homicides,
never once, never, once have I seen a COEOD cause
of death be changed like this. Usually I see a
determined to homicide. If there's any change at all, usually
they know at the get go what's happening now? I
was following along everything you just said. But can I
(35:27):
boil it down for you and get a simple yes? No,
Ellen was stabbed twenty times in the back, the back
of the neck, the back of the head, covered in bruises. Yes,
that's not suicide.
Speaker 10 (35:41):
Yes, no, no, it's not suicide. I'll plainly say that.
Speaker 8 (35:44):
The Ellen Greenberg evidence includes searches allegedly made by Greenberg
using Google to research suicide methods. The searches were not
added to the Greenberg evidence file until years after her death,
and Guy DeAndrea says he knows what was in the
file and Google searches of suicide by Ellen Greenberg was
not in the evidence file with me?
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Is Guy DeAndrea, who was in the District Attorney's office
at the time and reviewed with a fine tooth comb
all the evidence, Guy, rapid fire. Isn't it true that
Ellen's devices, her laptop and more were taken from the
crime scene by members of the Goldberg family? Is that true?
Speaker 4 (36:26):
True?
Speaker 1 (36:28):
All of those devices were returned? Were they not? After
being requested? They were? Isn't it true that that is
not SOP standard operating procedure for it is to be
taken from a scene. But wait, in this case, it
was a suicide, so apparently there was nothing wrong with it. Yes, no, no,
(36:50):
it is not standing operating procedure. But this was a suicide,
so possibly police didn't think there was anything wrong with it.
To Sandy and Josh Green, these devices belonged to your daughter.
Were you asked if Goldberg family members could take them? No?
What did you have to do to get them back?
(37:10):
In a nutshell, big borrow and steel? Okay, but you
did get them back. Now Here is my question to
Guide DeAndrea. You state you carefully examined the entire file
and there was no evidence on her devices, any device
that she was looking up manners of suicide. Is that true?
Speaker 13 (37:33):
That's true, Nancy. There was no reports of searching for suicide.
But more importantly, the computers were examined by the Federal
Laboratory our CFL, and their report details that nothing of
significance as it relates to suicide was found, meaning plain language,
no searches for suicide.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
So you search the FBI search. There was nothing in
the police files or the investigation files about her searching
for suicide. But y years later these searches emerge. That's
right to Joseph pedraza attorney for the Greenberg family, partner
LAMB mccarlan, Joe, I'm stunned only when a jury was
(38:17):
literally being struck. Okay, you know, I've seen it a
million times. When they look at the jury, they're like, Okay,
I'll plead or I'll do a settlement. Because the chickens
have come home to roost. It's happening. Osbourne would have
to take the stand and everyone would have to explain
why they covered up his failure. Why what happened in
(38:42):
that meeting. That's what I want to know. What happened
in that meeting with cops, the ADA, and Osborne, the
medical examiner, they would have to under oath say what happened,
and instead of doing that, they settled. My question is
what now can and we get this too a criminal
investigation by an independent investigator.
Speaker 16 (39:05):
We will and we will take every measure of that
is possible to get it there. And failing to get
appropriate response by a prosecutorial authority or a law enforcement authority,
we're going to pursue c evinly. We're not letting this end.
Speaker 13 (39:20):
We've gotten the ball to the goal line.
Speaker 16 (39:23):
Now the time is to hold somebody responsible for this murder,
a massacre of this child.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
To Josh and Sandy Greenberg joining us who have been
through so much, all out of love for Ellen, what next, Sandy?
What next? We're going to go ahead.
Speaker 6 (39:44):
I'm not Sandy. There's something I would love to bring up.
I'm sorry, Nancy. The court that turned us down for
not handing standing not having standing. The second the last
paragraph of the second page, the examination by the medical examiner,
the district attorney, and the detectives were faulty. That's by
(40:06):
a judge.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Battle Then they.
Speaker 6 (40:09):
Went on for thirty to thirty pages saying why we
should have justice for our daughter that's what paved the
way to the Supreme courts. Dancy, I'm sorry, you know what, Josh,
You're right.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
No, no, no, no, every fact is so important. You're right.
A court said the investigation was faulty. So now what
are they going to do? Sandy? What do you think
will happen next? What do you want?
Speaker 5 (40:39):
I want to see the death certificate changed to homicide.
We'll see how quickly that ocurse it occurs. Honestly, I
don't have a lot of legal ease, so I don't
really know where this is going to take us, but
(41:03):
I feel that we made.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Progress.
Speaker 6 (41:10):
It's most important to us that this has done fair
and legal, unlike what happened to our daughter.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
To Sandy and Josh, please know, I know it feels
like it, but you are not alone tonight. When we
normally remember a fallen American hero, our heroes tonight are
(41:38):
Sandy and Josh Greenberg. Parents, out of such deep love
for their daughter, have sacrificed it all the last fourteen
years of their life, their livelihoods, their money. They just
sold their home and now they are true David battling Goliath.
(42:06):
Nancy Gray signing off, goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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