May 31, 2024 • 42 mins
Karmity Hoeb becomes lethargic. The normally busy 4-year-old is not active at all.
After four days, her symptoms getting worse each day, Karmity turns blue and stops breathing. Her mother finally calls 911 for help. First responders can revive the little girl, who is taken to Children's Hospital. Karmity Hoeb seems malnourished, and her teeth appear to be rotted out.
Doctors order a brain scan and determine that the little girl with a big personality is brain dead. An autopsy is done and reveals that Karmity died from a diabetes-related brain injury. Investigators determined that Karmity has never been formally diagnosed with Diabetes.
Investigators discover her mother, Tamara Banks, has been feeding the 4-year-old a mixture of Mountain Dew and baby formula through a bottle long after she should have been weaned off the bottle, causing her teeth to rot.
Her teeth are almost all rotted, but no record can be found of her parents taking her to a dentist.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Troy Slaten – Los Angeles Criminal Defense Attorney, Slaten Lawyers, APC; Twitter/X: @TroySlaten
- Dr. Bethany Marshall – Psychoanalyst drbethanymarshall.com, Instagram & TikTok: @drbethanymarshall, Twitter: @DrBethanyLive, Appearing in the latest season of “Paris in Love” on Peacock – BOOK: “Deal Breaker: When to work on a relationship and when to walk away”
- Irv Brandt – Senior Inspector, US Marshals Service International Investigations Branch; Chief Inspector, DOJ Office of International Affairs, US Embassy Kingston, Jamaica; Author: “SOLO SHOT: CURSE OF THE BLUE STONE” – AVAILABLE ON AMAZON IN JANUARY; ALSO “FLYING SOLO: Top of the World;” Twitter: @JackSoloAuthor
- Dr. Michelle DuPre – Former Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff’s Department, Author: “Homicide Investigation Field Guide” & “Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide;” Forensic Consultant
- Lauren Conlin – Investigative Journalist, Host of The Outlier Podcast, and also Host of “Corruption: What Happened to Grant Solomon; X- @Conlin_Lauren/ Instagram- @LaurenEmilyConlin/YouTube- @LaurenConlin4
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, breaking news tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
A Mountain Dew bottle baby, four year old little girl Carmody,
dad of acute diabetes after mommy feeds her baby nothing.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
But Mountain dew baby bottles. The baby's teeth rotted out.
What nobody saw that. All I can say tonight is
there is a very special car to Hell for mommy
and daddy. You're riding shotgun. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace.
This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
(00:41):
Your world cares so or that resulted in her death.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Her was actually terrible. She has was called baby bottle
carries it sort of she decay this cause.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
By drinking a sugary liquid usually.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Out of a deliricystm. Sort of like a wow. What
turns out four child's dream?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Now do have a bob every day?
Speaker 4 (01:03):
So much so all of her teething.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
As of our friends at Local twelve WKRCTV. And you
are hearing the description of what was done to a
four year old little girl Carmity aka Mountain do Baby
bottle Baby, Mountain do Baby bottle Baby with me it
(01:31):
all start panel to make sense of what we are
hearing right now But first, what happened when this little
baby girl was rushed.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
To the hospital.
Speaker 5 (01:44):
Toward the end of January, Carmody Hole becomes lethargic. The
normally busy four year old is not active at all.
After four days of her symptoms getting worse each day,
Carmody turns blue and stops breathing. Her mother finally calls
ninety one one for help. First responders are able to
(02:04):
revive the little girl and she is taken to children's hospital.
Carmody Hobe seems malnourished and her teeth appear to be
rotted out.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Her overall care so poor it results in her death.
Her diet was exclusively baby bottles full of mountain dew. Really,
how many grams of sugar are in this thing? Whoa
seventy seven grams of sugar and a twenty fluid ounce bottle.
(02:38):
The baby's teeth were rotted out after drinking mountain dew
baby bottles. She had exclusively mountain dew baby bottles. She
got diabetes as she died after the diabetes affected her brain.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
That doesn't happen overnight? Okay? With me an all star panel.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Carmoedy Hub, a four year old little girl, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Now dead. Back to our All Star panel.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
First, I want to go straight out to Lauren Colin,
joining US investigative journalists and star of the Outlier podcast.
You can find her on YouTube. Lauren, thank you for
being with us. What happened?
Speaker 6 (03:26):
Yeah, so this is a case of neglect, as the
prosecution stated, and look, poor Carmony. There was no evidence
that her parents had ever taken her to the dentist before.
She didn't go to the pediatrician for regular visits. I
mean the photos you see of Carmody, there's dorrito bags everywhere,
There's there's the mountain dew stacks. I mean, it's so sad.
(03:49):
So this was a true case of neglect here. And
as you stated, her mother wasn't even going to take
her to the hospital until she saw that she wasn't
breathing and she turned and then obviously we know she
later passed away. It's completely tragic and could have been prevented.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Again with me an All Star panel, I'm trying to
figure out how this happens. What do we learn upon
an autopsy?
Speaker 7 (04:16):
Listen, Carmody Hope arrives at Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center,
after being revived by first responders at her home, doctor's
order a brain scan and determined that the little girl
with a big personality is brain dead. An autopsy is done,
it reveals Carmody died from a diabetes related brain injury.
Investigators determined Krmody has never been formally diagnosed with diabetes.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Okay, let me understand what I'm hearing. Joining me.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Doctor Michelle Dupree a renowned forensic pathologist, medical examiner, and importantly,
former detective with the Sheriff's Department. She is the author
of multiple books, including Money, Mischief and Murder, The Murdog
Saga That's all about Alex Murdog. Do I need to
relive that double homicide? But important for me Homicide Investigation
(05:04):
field Guide and Investigating Child abuse field Guide. How I
don't totally understand diabetes. I know you can be born
with it. I know that it can develop over a
period of time. I know my dad was borderline diabetic
(05:25):
and we had to watch every gram of sugar in
his yogurt, in his food, and his everything. But how
does diabetes affect your brain? I don't understand that, Doctor Dupree.
You know what you just need to start at the
beginning about what happened with carmeny, doctor Dupree.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
If you don't mind, sure, well.
Speaker 8 (05:44):
Diabetes is basically too much sugar in your blood. Sugar
is used as energy for the cells your liver processes
the sugar. When there is not enough insulin to help
the liver do that, then the liver becomes overburdened and
actually begins to burn fat instead of sugar for energy.
When this happens, the person goes into something called keto acidosis,
(06:08):
and keto is from the fat.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
You know what, doctor Dupree, really keto acidos? Dummy down, woman,
I'm just a trial lawyer. I did not go to
medical school. I haven't performed ten thousand autopsies like you.
How does diabetes affect your brain?
Speaker 8 (06:29):
Because when that happens, the blood brain is broken and
that is toxic to the brain. When you have too
much and so your brain begins to shut down. In fact,
some of the symptoms of this are lethargy, you become
convulsive even and eventually you go into a coma because
it depresses your central nervous system. And then if it's
(06:51):
not taken care of, if that isn't resolved, then you
can actually die from this, and unfortunately that's what happened
in this case. Too much Sugar Listen to.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Our friends a crime online.
Speaker 7 (07:02):
The cause of death for Carmody Hope is listed as
diabetic keto acidosis which spread to her brain. Eminently treatable.
Her death could have been prevented had she received proper
medical care. While denying Carmody proper medical care, her mother,
Tamra Banks, did not deny her own medical care, regularly
filling prescriptions and even getting her doctor to make a
(07:22):
house call to their apartment to make sure her health
needs were met.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
What so no pediatrician, no dennist, no anything for Carmity,
while the mom actually somehow fenangled house calls from a doctor.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
I didn't know they even did that anymore.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
In addition to Lauren Colin joining US investigative journalist and
doctor Michelle Dupree, doctor Bethany Marshall is with US renounced psychoanalyst,
star on TV, author of a deal Breaker, went to
work on a relationship and went to walk away. You
can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com doctor Bethany, So,
(08:04):
mommy actually somehow wrangled house calls from doctors, but she
never thought to say to that doctor, Hey, could you
look at my little Karmity, what's wrong with her? She's
lethargic sometimes she seems like she's in a comma and
all our teeth that run it out. You think she
might do that?
Speaker 4 (08:21):
Nancy, did you notice in the picture of Carmity sitting
in the tub that it was equipped with a handicap
handle and had that white handle going over the side.
So that tells us that somebody in that household was
being cared for.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
The mom was extremely obese and probably needed that ladder
to get in and out of the bathtub.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Back on the mom is me, me, me, me, me,
me me.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
According to this mommy forget about the baby. What were
you saying, doctor Bethany?
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Okay, Well, so the mom was taking care of herself
medically and that. But because of that, we can rule
out mental illness or person disorder. She knew what medical
care was and she purposely deprived Carmity of that. Fatal
starvation is extremely rare. It's the most rare form of
child abuse. And you know what I find in clinical practice, Nancy,
(09:15):
Children who are hit, children who are beaten, children who
are raped fair better than children who are starved. And
the reason for that is that when the child is raped, beaten,
I don't know, verbally abused, they at least know they
exist in the eyes of the parent. They know there's
some attachment, even if it's a ratual, full or a
(09:35):
sexual attachment, Whereas when the child is starved and neglected,
the child feels like an it. The child feels like
there's no attachment with the parent, the parent does love them,
and that they're not even a person. And so these
types of neglects that children grow up into adults who
are very, very compromised by the way this kind of
(09:56):
starvation disrupts all of the brain circuits the developing So
even if Carmedy had lived, she would have had gross
dysfunction in the areas of learning, problem solving, and attaching
to other people.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Speaking of the pictures, Dr Bethany Marshall, that's a really
good idea.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
I'm sorry, Liz. Can we go through.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
The photos one by one because I'm noticing something in
these photos.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Let's see the photos.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Okay, look around at everything. You see lots of toys,
but you can't see Carmeny's teeth. Keep going she's got
a smile. Okay, there you go. They're rotting. Why are
her teeth rotting? Is she not going to the dentist?
And of course okay, wait, wait, wait wait, this little
(10:45):
girl only has many of her baby teeth. She doesn't
have all of her adult teeth, and they're not falling
out naturally for the tooth fairy to show up.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
They're rotting out.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
There's mommy in the background, teeth falling out. Some of
these we got from the funeral home. Look around, you
heard Lauren con Okay, that one strikes me. You can
buy multiple beanie babies, but you can't take your daughter
(11:17):
to the dentist or the doctor. In every shot she
has teeth problems, and she's getting.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Thinner and paler in every shot.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Here she is with a little little was like a
disney looking guitar and toys in the background, but in everyone,
look how pale. And look at her teeth and some
of them that Lauren Colin pointed out, you see junk
food everywhere lying around right there. The teeth are practically
(11:54):
all gone. But mommy's smiling for the camera like she
doesn't know anything is wrong. So what happened to baby
Oh there you go there, Look at all that junk food.
I would do a backflip if my children were having
junk food day in day out. As a matter of fact,
Doctor Bethany Marshall, let me go back to you. The
(12:17):
other day, John David and I had it out, my
son now sixteen, one of my twins, had it out.
Means we sat at the kitchen table and had a discussion,
a stern discussion because I heard I heard he said
the S word.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
You know what the S word is in our house.
There's two of them.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
One is shut up, we don't say that, and the
other s word not what you're thinking, get your mind
out of the gutter.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Is soda.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
I got wind that, John David Lynch, my big boy
had gotten soda at school. Okay, so then I had
to show him all the articles online about what it
does to your stomach, how it rots nails if you
leave the nail in the soda for an.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Extended period of time. Just on and on and on
about soda. Of course, he probably ran out and got
another one.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
I wasn't around, but that said what this child had
nothing nothing but baby bottles full of mountain do Doctor
Bethany Nancy, this child was.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Not a person to them.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
This child wasn't it. And all those toys, you see,
you can get toys for free. You can go to
a shelter, you can go to a toy giveaway, you
can go to the neighbors. You know, toys get tossed
around and you know, passed from household to household. So
that didn't cost them anything. Food cost them something. And
(13:53):
they resented any need this child had. They didn't want
that child there. This child was prop and Nancy. Look
at how Carmody is smiling and all of those photos. Tragically, Tragically,
she loved her parents even though her parents did not
let her back. That's what children do. They want the
(14:16):
love of the parent, even when the parent does not
care about them. But this fatal starvation, I think is
worse than just deprivation. These parents wanted to see this
child deteriorate because there were visible signs of it. I
think at some point they wanted this child to die
and they were hoping she would just go away. And
the toys is to distract her so they don't have
(14:38):
to play with her or take care of her.
Speaker 7 (14:40):
The lack of medical care for Carmody shocks investigators as
they find Karmody's mother, Tamera Banks, had nearly lost a
child ten years before the death of Carmody in much
the same way. At that time, a four year old
son of Banks falls into a coma from previously undiagnosed diabetes.
Even after that child recovered, continued to neglect his medical needs,
(15:02):
failing to have him seen by a doctor, and never
attended any of his follow up appointments.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
As is so often the case, This is not the
first time a baby girl Carmedy dead after living off
nothing but mountain dew, baby bottles.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Nothing.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Choice Slaton is with me, high profile LA criminal defense
attorney as Layton Lawyers named after himself. No one would
claimed that's narcissistic at all, but Choice Layton. This is
not her first time.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
At the rodeo. Did you hear the reporter? The investigative reporter.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
They find out that Carmody's mother, Tamra Banks, nearly lost
a child ten years before Carmody's death the same way
a four year old son same age Carmony falls into
a coma for previously undiagnosed diabetes. Even after that little
(16:10):
boy Banks recovered, she continued to neglect his medical needs.
A why did the children get to stay in the home?
But B there's no way she can claim what diabetes?
Her son, then four, almost died the very same way.
What about that, Troy Slayton, What are you going to
(16:30):
do at trial now after I bring in that similar
transaction on you, because you know I will.
Speaker 9 (16:37):
The death of any child is a tragedy, and the
death of that beautiful little girl is absolutely a tragedy.
But for us to sit here on our high horses,
with our advanced degrees, you and me with juris doctorate degrees,
everyone else here with doctorate degrees, and you with the
smarts to know that you're not going to feed your
(16:57):
child soda. I don't think that this was an issue
of a mother not loving her daughter. This is a
situation where somebody was just dumb. Somebody was really really stupid,
and stupid does not equal criminal. This is somebody who
clearly wanted to provide. She wanted to provide for her.
(17:19):
There's toys everywhere, there's smiles, yes, there's Dorito's stained fingers.
But this is a person who was stupid, not a
person who wanted her child to be dead.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Are you three. I hope so.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
But I'm just checking Curv brand joining me, and I'm
so glad he's with US tonight. Former US Marshall in
the International Investigations Branch, author of Flying Solo, Top of
the World.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
That's part of a series of solo novels.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Oh, here's a new one Solo Journey boot up Nights,
Jack Solo mystery novel. Okay, Irv Brandt, I'd love to
keep going on and on about all of your accomplishments
in all of your books about Jack Solo AKAAU. But
how many times have you heard a defense attorney be
(18:12):
a horrible defense attorney or an excellent defense attorney renowned
in his feel like Slayton.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Say they're not bad, Du're just stupid.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
You think stupid people can't commit horrible crimes like letting
this little girl die.
Speaker 10 (18:28):
Me And see, you're exactly right. Stupid is not a
defense and for defense counsel. I don't have an advanced degree.
You see my degree over my shoulder. It's a bachelor's degree.
I don't have a doctorate like the rest of you.
And so I'll tell you, from my point of view,
this is horrifying and this is criminal. It's not neglect,
(18:52):
it's not a mistake. This is criminal intent when you're
talking about this type of abuse. And unfortunately, this little girl,
I can't believe that a family member or a friend
or someone didn't call child welfare services. If she would
have lived long enough to get into school, perhaps that
(19:15):
could have saved her life, because I know teachers and
people like that. You know that this would have been
reported if she would have made it into school, and
you know, possibly, you know, teachers, healthcare workers would have
been able to see her, and this tragedy could have
been prevented.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Well, I guess so, Brandt. All of her teeth were
rotting out.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
That have to know something was very, very wrong, Doctor
Michelle Duprey again, and I know it's really hard for you,
with all of your medical degree and experience and education
to please talk regular English, not Latin phrases or medical phrases. Please,
(20:00):
What does diabetes do to you? Why are this child's
teeth rotted out? Nancy is because of the sugar. Sugar,
As you know, sugar causes cavities in our teeth. And
she had no dental care whatsoever. She had too much sugar.
In fact, thirty six.
Speaker 8 (20:17):
Grams of sugar for a woman adult is the max.
She had much more than that in the Mountain do
and it basically rotted out her.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
But what does it do to your body?
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Like? Why did she and her brother both go into
a coma again because of too much sugar and not
being able to handle that in your body? Let me see,
This is why I had to go over every line
of an autopsy report with the doctor until I could
understand what she's saying.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Let me take you back in time, remember still Magnolia's.
Remember when Julia Roberts, who is diabetic, fell over and died.
She went into a diabetic coma and she died. Okay,
why did she die? I know it's because you have
too much sugar. I get that, But what happens to
(21:19):
your body? I mean, I can say she had too
much sugar, but what physically happens to your body?
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Why do you go into.
Speaker 8 (21:26):
A coma because there's too much sugar overload and your
liver then starts to break down fat in our body,
fat produces acid when it's an overload, and that acidic
are in your blood then causes you to go into
this coma. If it's not resolved, you die from that.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Okay, I'm starting to understand a little bit of what
you're saying. This little girl is dead after a very
short life, subsisting on nothing but baby bottles of mountain dew.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
That's what she had for four years. But what more
do we.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Learn about the fingerprint crime committed on her brother?
Speaker 7 (22:11):
Tamra Banks's oldest son, Jerry Banks, says what happened to
Carmody isn't a first for his mother. Jerry Banks says,
ten years ago, his little brother went lethargic, wouldn't move.
The only thing he would respond to his sugar. Jerry
Banks says this goes on for about thirty six hours
until he forces Tamra Banks to take his brother to
the hospital. Doctors were able to save the boy, who
(22:33):
was four years old at the time, the same age
as Carmody. Looking into the diabetes related brain injury death
of Carmody Hope, investigators find the little girl has never
been formally diagnosed with diabetes. They also discover her mother,
Tamra Banks, has been feeding the four year old a
mixture of mountain dew and baby formula through a bottle
long after she should have been weaned off the bottle,
(22:54):
causing her teeth to rot. Her teeth are almost all rotted,
but no record can be found of her parents taking
her to a dentist.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Okay, doctor Michelle Duprey joining me. Okay, doctor Dupriy, Sorry,
but I feel like I'm wrestling you on this, but
I'm not giving up. I'm going back in the ring
with you. Duprey does Okay? I know diabetes. You can
be born with diabetes. You can develop diabetes even if
(23:23):
you have a good diet. But can a regular diet
of nothing but this mountain dew? How many grams of sugar?
Does seventy seven grams of sugar in one of these?
So if she had three or four, five or six
baby bottles a day of this, sometimes mixed with formula,
(23:45):
can you create diabetes because of your diet? Can you
eat so many sweets and just so much mountain dew
that that gives you diabetes?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yes?
Speaker 8 (23:56):
Essentially, Nancy, You're absolutely correct, because again, the sugar overall,
it's what causes you to starve then not being able
to handle it, and your body starts breaking down fat
causing the acid. You know, our body is in a
state of equilibrium between acid and base, and when one
of those is out of whack, then it causes serious
injury to the body, and in this case, it's over
(24:18):
and over acid and that's what caused the death.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
As we're trying to figure out exactly how the mom
could have not known what was happening.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Back to Troy Slayton, dare I do it? Troy? Your
argument that, hey, she doesn't have a PhD like all
of you do.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
I hear you, And if I were used that you
have nowhere else to go, I'd probably argue the same
thing if I was a defense attorney. But that said,
duly noted, what about the fact that the same thing
happened a few years before with Carmeny's older brother when
he was four years old, he went into a diabetic
(24:56):
coma after being fed the Lord only knows what, almost died.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
And the mom was.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Forced to take him to the hospital by family members.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
He was in a diabetic coma, same.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Thing, So how can you argue with a straight face
she didn't have a PAHD where she knew this because
it happened before to her son.
Speaker 9 (25:20):
So this is what we would call in the defense business. Nancy,
A bad fact. That's something that you're gonna have to
deal with. This is a woman who clearly couldn't deal
with her own self. All the pictures that you show
she is morbidly obese. Her own teeth are decayne. She's
brought into courtroom in a wheelchair. She can't even support
(25:42):
her own weight. This is not the picture of health.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Guess who else just got wheeled into the courtroom and
a cut his mic? Guess who else just got wheeled
into the court in a wheelchair? Harvey Weinstein? You think
I care that he now has his lawyers by him
atop of the wine wheelchair to get rolled into the courtroom. Atlno.
And the fact that this mom comes in in a wheelchair, really,
(26:10):
you know what, I don't care. I don't care because
even in a wheelchair, this mom could have ordered this
child food. She didn't have to prepare it. And in
all the photos you see, she's not in a wheelchair.
She's in a wheelchair now now that she's charged with
the death of her child.
Speaker 9 (26:25):
She didn't keep her house clean, she didn't know how
to manage her own weight, she didn't know how to
manage her own teeth. Her husband also not the picture
of health. These are not people that knew how to
take care of themselves, let alone know how to take
care of a child.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
You really think that's going to win over a jury. Okay,
you know what, doctor Bethany Marshall. Can you hear him? Yes,
it's like a mosquito buzzing around my head. I keep
hearing it and.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
I can't catch it and make it stop. Respond to him.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
Okay, Nancy. Defense attorneys use the word stupidity. It drives
me crazy because this was not stupidity. That's not a defense.
This is a mother who resented the needs of her child.
That is a psychology of this. She did not want
to provide for her child, so she was hoping that
(27:19):
her child would die as soon as possible. That is
the bottom line. You can't get around it if you
look at Okay, Troy, look at any scholarly article on
fatal starvation, and what you'll see called philicide.
Speaker 9 (27:34):
Oh my goodness, she had every toy. She had every
toy available for her child.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
She had the Mickey Mouse guitar.
Speaker 9 (27:42):
She's in a sea of mini mouses.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
No, no, no, A lot of those came free from McDonald's.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Go ahead. Okay, So if you look at the.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
Literature on fatal starvation, it's interchangeably used with philicide. So
all the scholarly literature really links starving a child to
purposely killing the child. This is Childreywhere in the literature,
this is just the Troy. I'm sure you do. I'm
sure you do research when you go into court. You
(28:14):
cannot get around the psychology of this woman. This woman
was also a hoarder, so she did not even take
care of her house, herself, her child. But I want
to say furthermore, she did not want this.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Child to have needs.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
She did not. She used the cheapest form of keeping
a child alive so she wouldn't have to spend her
own money. I mean, how shallow is that? And do
you know what, hey, okay, you know what, Troy, all
those toys. She was trying to keep the child busy
so she didn't have to take care of the child.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
I would like to point something out, guys, very quickly,
Troy Slayton, you got to think again about your argument.
And I know what you're doing, Troy. You're doing what
any good defenses turning would do when your back is
against the wall.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
You have nowhere to go. You make something up. My mom, my.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Brother, and sister, and I are first generation college Okay.
My mother didn't have a PhD. She didn't even have
a Bachelor of Arts or Bachelor of Science a four years.
She didn't have an associates degree two years.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
She grew up working on a farm with an anonymous
donor providing her music lessons so she could go on
to play cello in the symphony and the piano and
the organ where you play with your hands and your
feet at the same time. She never ever had the
kind of education you're talking about, nor.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Did my dad. But on the weekends, you know what
we did while other kids are out of arcade.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
We were in the fields of our friends, our neighbors,
and our church friends because they would allow us, because
my mom played for the church for free, to pick
produce and then we will cook it, and then we
would have it fresh veggies, fresh fruit that we would
(30:13):
pick ourselves. I'm not telling your hard luck story.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
I'm glad that happened. But my mom didn't have what
you're talking about, a PhD.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Her mother grew up working in a tile factory for
Pete's sake, working a farm. They didn't have a PhD.
But they cared about their children. And you want to
tell me everybody on that jury wouldn't care about their children.
It's complete bs. I don't think you're being fair to
(30:45):
all the parents out there that didn't have the benefits
and luxuries.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
My parents gave me to get through law school.
Speaker 9 (30:51):
Because most parents have basic common sense, which clearly this
woman didn't. Most people have a basic moticum of an
understanding of basic nutrition, but that doesn't mean everybody does.
I would venture to guess that this woman wasn't working,
and that she was on some sort of disability welfare program.
(31:12):
She was just being given money. She wasn't didn't have
the street smarts that your mom and grandma had. She
didn't have that institutional knowledge in her family. She just
gave the child what she thought was needed in that moment,
to make the child happy, to put a smile on
the kid's face.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
When you give a kid.
Speaker 9 (31:31):
Candy, does a kid smile or does a kid say, Oh, no,
I don't want to eat that candy. That's not healthy
for me.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
The kid's gonna gobble it all up.
Speaker 9 (31:39):
Whatever they can.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Crime stores with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 5 (31:54):
Carmody dies as a direct result of neglect and abuse
from her parents. Carmody dies from diabetic keto acidosis or
d KA, which is an extreme complication of untreated diabetes.
Left untreated, it can cause coma and death, as in
Carmody's case.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
So, day by day, she watched her.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
Little girl get more and more pale. She watched her
daughter's teeth wrought out one by one, and she continued
to feed her nothing but baby bottles full of mountain dew,
seventy plus grams of sugar for one of these? How
(32:37):
many of these did the baby girl have every day?
Speaker 1 (32:41):
And it's not just Carmedy.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Carmeny's older brother went into a diabetic coma when he
was also four years old and had to be rushed
to the hospital in a coma. He lived, but after
that faithful night, mommy continued to ignore the child's medical
niece And hey, daddy, I'm not letting you off the hook.
(33:04):
You're going down to You're just as responsible as mommy.
I'm trying to figure out how this was kept from relatives, family, friends, neighbors.
I'm very curious why people don't come forward. IRV Brent
is joining us who has traveled all around the world
(33:24):
apprehending dangerous criminals.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
You know what, I think part of it is IRV.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
And the reason I introduced you that way is people
have in their minds who is a killer, what that
killer would look like. You might think of a sex
pervert as a guy wearing a trench coat at the
corner of a children's park. You may think a killer
as showing up and a malaclava over his face, or
(33:52):
carrying two guns. You don't think the mommy and the
home next to you are in the apartment next to you.
The mommy that smiles at you as she goes through
a car during the day, or spot her at the
grocery store, you don't think of her being a killer, right,
(34:13):
But you've seen killers in all shapes and sizes way.
Speaker 10 (34:16):
In No, that's exactly right, Nancy. It's just what you said.
In your mind, you have a preconceived notion of what
this person should look like, what this person should act like.
An evil person, you know, something from the movies, something
from a novel, and there is no type. I'm sure
(34:37):
this woman the neighbors. If you went and talked to
the neighbors about how nice she was, and they can't
believe that this happened because they could never conceive of
it in their mind. This is the part that I
find most complexing about this case is that no one
took notice that this little girl was dying right in
(35:01):
front of them, to watch her waste away like she
did until she finally went into a coma and couldn't
be revived. That's the part that I just can't understand,
and it's so tragic because it was so avoidable.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
Parents that think they're doing the right thing, could they
really be thinking that?
Speaker 1 (35:24):
I don't believe it.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
This mom is by far not the first to kill
their child by what they feed them.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Listen.
Speaker 7 (35:35):
She lo O Leary calls nine to one one in
Cape Coral, Florida, seeking help for her eighteen month old
son who is cold and not breathing. I thought he's
arrived and the malnourished child is pronounced dead. Ohlary tells
police they are vegans on a raw food diet of mangoes, bananas,
and avocados, but the toddler had not eaten solid food
in a week due to teething, so he had just
had breast milk. The medical examiner says the boy weighed
(35:56):
just seventeen pounds and died for malnutrition. She Lo Oliria
convicted a first degree murder and more sentenced to life
in prison.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Okay, what about that Slatin feeding the baby a raw
sued diet of mangoes, bananas, and avocados till the baby dies?
What about them? They're enlightened vegans.
Speaker 9 (36:17):
It's the same. It's awful, it's tragic, and it's clearly
people that don't understand how to nourish a human. I mean,
we can have days of discussions versus veganism, versus carnivore,
versus all types of other diets, but clearly this is
just another parent who didn't have the brains to know
(36:39):
how to take care of themselves, let alone take care
of a child.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
I bet you that mom wasn't living off nothing but soda.
I bet she was having full on meals and the
dad too, So why not the child? Dr Bethany Marshall,
you know this.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
Mother besides not wanting this child to live, the mother
was not bonded with this child. I've treated mothers in
my practice who are not bonded with their children. They
love to go out in public, go to parties, smile,
get a lot of attention. One moment in this past week,
a female patient said, you know, my happiest moment today
was when I was grocery shopping and saying hi to
(37:18):
everybody and seeing people I knew. Meanwhile, she spoke viciously
about her child. So not only are these mothers not bonded,
but I think we have to consider that homicide can
be formulated at an unconscious level. So while she may
not even consciously say, oh, I'm going to starve my
child to death, at some level, she's thinking, oh, goodie,
(37:41):
my child is not going to be here at some point.
That's why a fatal starvation, child neglect through starvation, and
philicide are all linked. They are one and the same.
They're not two separate things. Homicide and neglect go hand
in hand.
Speaker 5 (38:00):
Is a four year old with a big personality nicknamed Boogie.
She loves being silly and taking pictures, smiling big and
saying cheese, waking up with great joy and energy. She
loves playing with her Mickey Buddies and racing car. Carmody
is the type of child that warms the hearts of
everyone she comes in contact.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
You know where we got those words, those exact words
from four year old Kromeny's obituary that was written by
her mom and dad that killed her by mountain dew.
The mountain dew baby bottle. Baby four year old Caromeny
(38:42):
is now dead from horrible implications resulting from diabetes brought
onto a four year diet of nothing but mountain dew
and a baby bottle, sometimes mixed with formula. But it's
by far the first time a parent is killed by ingestion.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Listen.
Speaker 7 (39:03):
An obese three year old weighs sixty six pounds. His
mother is warned about proper diet. She feeds him junk food,
telling teachers at school he's too sickly to do any
physical fitness. As a teen, he's hospitalized with a heart
condition brought on by obesity. In the hospital, mom sneaks
fast food to her son until he dies of heart
failure at fifteen. Parents of another more bidle obese boy
are warned he could die if he doesn't lose weight.
(39:23):
At seven, his body mass index should be fourteen, his
is thirty. Parents ignore doctors and give the boy junk
food until he weighs over one hundred and seventy five
pounds at ten years old and has a heart attack
and his declared brain dead.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Doctor Bethany, what is wrong with these people?
Speaker 4 (39:36):
You know, it's hard to even say, Nancy, you know,
little Hart, because there's so many motivations, but always, always
at the root of it is not wanting the child
to have needs and feeling that the child is unconditionally bad.
I once treated a mother who was not bonded with
(39:57):
her children. They were all in a business to together,
and whenever it came time to pay the children their paychecks,
she would come in and insist to me that her
adult children were stealing from her. Okay, so she didn't
see that she was providing for them. She thought they
were stealing from her. Furthermore, children that are subjected to
(40:19):
fatal starvation, you almost always see that there's a padlock
on the fridge. Have you seen that where the parents
put chains on the fridge because they do not want
their children to have food they do not want to provide.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
Doctor Michelle Duprey, renowned forensic pathologists, medical examiner, and a
former detective with the Sheriff's Department. You've conducted well around
ten thousand autopsies. Does it ever matter to you clinically
or medically, whether the per has a pH D, like
(40:52):
Troce Layton was pointing out or not.
Speaker 8 (40:55):
No, Nancy, it never does. And sometimes in these cases
we also find that this can be a personality disorder
of the mother who was trying to get attention for
herself because her child is always so sick. It's called
munch house in my prodixy, and that may also be
a fact. But no, this is absolutely she's able to
take care of herself. She sees a doctor. That's no excuse.
(41:19):
Stupidity is not an excuse.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Investigative journalist Lauren Conlin, what happened to these two demons
from hell? The mom and dad?
Speaker 6 (41:27):
So Tamra got sentenced nine years and her husband is
do back in court in the middle of June, and
he could face up to thirteen years. So let's see
what happens.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
I'm ready nine years, nine years. Carmeny is dead and
she got a reduced play to involuntary manslaughter on nine years.
She'll be out in about four count on. It we
stop and we remember American hero Deputy Sheriff Michael Brown
from Cordel, Georgia, just twenty six. Sheriff Brown shot and
(42:05):
killed in the line of duty on a traffic stop
an Army National Guard Vet Deputy. Sheriff Brown leaves behind
a grieving mother and stepfather, Christina and Tom, brothers Jason
and Jeff, and his beloved dog Jenny. Sheriff Ty Brown Hero.
(42:30):
I want to thank all of our guests for being
with us tonight, leading us on a very rocky path
to justice. Nancy Gray signing off, good night friend.
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, breaking news tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
A Mountain Dew bottle baby, four year old little girl Carmody,
dad of acute diabetes after mommy feeds her baby nothing.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
But Mountain dew baby bottles. The baby's teeth rotted out.
What nobody saw that. All I can say tonight is
there is a very special car to Hell for mommy
and daddy. You're riding shotgun. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace.
This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
(00:41):
Your world cares so or that resulted in her death.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Her was actually terrible. She has was called baby bottle
carries it sort of she decay this cause.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
By drinking a sugary liquid usually.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Out of a deliricystm. Sort of like a wow. What
turns out four child's dream?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Now do have a bob every day?
Speaker 4 (01:03):
So much so all of her teething.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
As of our friends at Local twelve WKRCTV. And you
are hearing the description of what was done to a
four year old little girl Carmity aka Mountain do Baby
bottle Baby, Mountain do Baby bottle Baby with me it
(01:31):
all start panel to make sense of what we are
hearing right now But first, what happened when this little
baby girl was rushed.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
To the hospital.
Speaker 5 (01:44):
Toward the end of January, Carmody Hole becomes lethargic. The
normally busy four year old is not active at all.
After four days of her symptoms getting worse each day,
Carmody turns blue and stops breathing. Her mother finally calls
ninety one one for help. First responders are able to
(02:04):
revive the little girl and she is taken to children's hospital.
Carmody Hobe seems malnourished and her teeth appear to be
rotted out.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Her overall care so poor it results in her death.
Her diet was exclusively baby bottles full of mountain dew. Really,
how many grams of sugar are in this thing? Whoa
seventy seven grams of sugar and a twenty fluid ounce bottle.
(02:38):
The baby's teeth were rotted out after drinking mountain dew
baby bottles. She had exclusively mountain dew baby bottles. She
got diabetes as she died after the diabetes affected her brain.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
That doesn't happen overnight? Okay? With me an all star panel.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Carmoedy Hub, a four year old little girl, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Now dead. Back to our All Star panel.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
First, I want to go straight out to Lauren Colin,
joining US investigative journalists and star of the Outlier podcast.
You can find her on YouTube. Lauren, thank you for
being with us. What happened?
Speaker 6 (03:26):
Yeah, so this is a case of neglect, as the
prosecution stated, and look, poor Carmony. There was no evidence
that her parents had ever taken her to the dentist before.
She didn't go to the pediatrician for regular visits. I
mean the photos you see of Carmody, there's dorrito bags everywhere,
There's there's the mountain dew stacks. I mean, it's so sad.
(03:49):
So this was a true case of neglect here. And
as you stated, her mother wasn't even going to take
her to the hospital until she saw that she wasn't
breathing and she turned and then obviously we know she
later passed away. It's completely tragic and could have been prevented.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Again with me an All Star panel, I'm trying to
figure out how this happens. What do we learn upon
an autopsy?
Speaker 7 (04:16):
Listen, Carmody Hope arrives at Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center,
after being revived by first responders at her home, doctor's
order a brain scan and determined that the little girl
with a big personality is brain dead. An autopsy is done,
it reveals Carmody died from a diabetes related brain injury.
Investigators determined Krmody has never been formally diagnosed with diabetes.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Okay, let me understand what I'm hearing. Joining me.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Doctor Michelle Dupree a renowned forensic pathologist, medical examiner, and importantly,
former detective with the Sheriff's Department. She is the author
of multiple books, including Money, Mischief and Murder, The Murdog
Saga That's all about Alex Murdog. Do I need to
relive that double homicide? But important for me Homicide Investigation
(05:04):
field Guide and Investigating Child abuse field Guide. How I
don't totally understand diabetes. I know you can be born
with it. I know that it can develop over a
period of time. I know my dad was borderline diabetic
(05:25):
and we had to watch every gram of sugar in
his yogurt, in his food, and his everything. But how
does diabetes affect your brain? I don't understand that, Doctor Dupree.
You know what you just need to start at the
beginning about what happened with carmeny, doctor Dupree.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
If you don't mind, sure, well.
Speaker 8 (05:44):
Diabetes is basically too much sugar in your blood. Sugar
is used as energy for the cells your liver processes
the sugar. When there is not enough insulin to help
the liver do that, then the liver becomes overburdened and
actually begins to burn fat instead of sugar for energy.
When this happens, the person goes into something called keto acidosis,
(06:08):
and keto is from the fat.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
You know what, doctor Dupree, really keto acidos? Dummy down, woman,
I'm just a trial lawyer. I did not go to
medical school. I haven't performed ten thousand autopsies like you.
How does diabetes affect your brain?
Speaker 8 (06:29):
Because when that happens, the blood brain is broken and
that is toxic to the brain. When you have too
much and so your brain begins to shut down. In fact,
some of the symptoms of this are lethargy, you become
convulsive even and eventually you go into a coma because
it depresses your central nervous system. And then if it's
(06:51):
not taken care of, if that isn't resolved, then you
can actually die from this, and unfortunately that's what happened
in this case. Too much Sugar Listen to.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Our friends a crime online.
Speaker 7 (07:02):
The cause of death for Carmody Hope is listed as
diabetic keto acidosis which spread to her brain. Eminently treatable.
Her death could have been prevented had she received proper
medical care. While denying Carmody proper medical care, her mother,
Tamra Banks, did not deny her own medical care, regularly
filling prescriptions and even getting her doctor to make a
(07:22):
house call to their apartment to make sure her health
needs were met.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
What so no pediatrician, no dennist, no anything for Carmity,
while the mom actually somehow fenangled house calls from a doctor.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
I didn't know they even did that anymore.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
In addition to Lauren Colin joining US investigative journalist and
doctor Michelle Dupree, doctor Bethany Marshall is with US renounced psychoanalyst,
star on TV, author of a deal Breaker, went to
work on a relationship and went to walk away. You
can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com doctor Bethany, So,
(08:04):
mommy actually somehow wrangled house calls from doctors, but she
never thought to say to that doctor, Hey, could you
look at my little Karmity, what's wrong with her? She's
lethargic sometimes she seems like she's in a comma and
all our teeth that run it out. You think she
might do that?
Speaker 4 (08:21):
Nancy, did you notice in the picture of Carmity sitting
in the tub that it was equipped with a handicap
handle and had that white handle going over the side.
So that tells us that somebody in that household was
being cared for.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
The mom was extremely obese and probably needed that ladder
to get in and out of the bathtub.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Back on the mom is me, me, me, me, me,
me me.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
According to this mommy forget about the baby. What were
you saying, doctor Bethany?
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Okay, Well, so the mom was taking care of herself
medically and that. But because of that, we can rule
out mental illness or person disorder. She knew what medical
care was and she purposely deprived Carmity of that. Fatal
starvation is extremely rare. It's the most rare form of
child abuse. And you know what I find in clinical practice, Nancy,
(09:15):
Children who are hit, children who are beaten, children who
are raped fair better than children who are starved. And
the reason for that is that when the child is raped, beaten,
I don't know, verbally abused, they at least know they
exist in the eyes of the parent. They know there's
some attachment, even if it's a ratual, full or a
(09:35):
sexual attachment, Whereas when the child is starved and neglected,
the child feels like an it. The child feels like
there's no attachment with the parent, the parent does love them,
and that they're not even a person. And so these
types of neglects that children grow up into adults who
are very, very compromised by the way this kind of
(09:56):
starvation disrupts all of the brain circuits the developing So
even if Carmedy had lived, she would have had gross
dysfunction in the areas of learning, problem solving, and attaching
to other people.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Speaking of the pictures, Dr Bethany Marshall, that's a really
good idea.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
I'm sorry, Liz. Can we go through.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
The photos one by one because I'm noticing something in
these photos.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Let's see the photos.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Okay, look around at everything. You see lots of toys,
but you can't see Carmeny's teeth. Keep going she's got
a smile. Okay, there you go. They're rotting. Why are
her teeth rotting? Is she not going to the dentist?
And of course okay, wait, wait, wait wait, this little
(10:45):
girl only has many of her baby teeth. She doesn't
have all of her adult teeth, and they're not falling
out naturally for the tooth fairy to show up.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
They're rotting out.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
There's mommy in the background, teeth falling out. Some of
these we got from the funeral home. Look around, you
heard Lauren con Okay, that one strikes me. You can
buy multiple beanie babies, but you can't take your daughter
(11:17):
to the dentist or the doctor. In every shot she
has teeth problems, and she's getting.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Thinner and paler in every shot.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Here she is with a little little was like a
disney looking guitar and toys in the background, but in everyone,
look how pale. And look at her teeth and some
of them that Lauren Colin pointed out, you see junk
food everywhere lying around right there. The teeth are practically
(11:54):
all gone. But mommy's smiling for the camera like she
doesn't know anything is wrong. So what happened to baby
Oh there you go there, Look at all that junk food.
I would do a backflip if my children were having
junk food day in day out. As a matter of fact,
Doctor Bethany Marshall, let me go back to you. The
(12:17):
other day, John David and I had it out, my
son now sixteen, one of my twins, had it out.
Means we sat at the kitchen table and had a discussion,
a stern discussion because I heard I heard he said
the S word.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
You know what the S word is in our house.
There's two of them.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
One is shut up, we don't say that, and the
other s word not what you're thinking, get your mind
out of the gutter.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Is soda.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
I got wind that, John David Lynch, my big boy
had gotten soda at school. Okay, so then I had
to show him all the articles online about what it
does to your stomach, how it rots nails if you
leave the nail in the soda for an.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Extended period of time. Just on and on and on
about soda. Of course, he probably ran out and got
another one.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
I wasn't around, but that said what this child had
nothing nothing but baby bottles full of mountain do Doctor
Bethany Nancy, this child was.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Not a person to them.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
This child wasn't it. And all those toys, you see,
you can get toys for free. You can go to
a shelter, you can go to a toy giveaway, you
can go to the neighbors. You know, toys get tossed
around and you know, passed from household to household. So
that didn't cost them anything. Food cost them something. And
(13:53):
they resented any need this child had. They didn't want
that child there. This child was prop and Nancy. Look
at how Carmody is smiling and all of those photos. Tragically, Tragically,
she loved her parents even though her parents did not
let her back. That's what children do. They want the
(14:16):
love of the parent, even when the parent does not
care about them. But this fatal starvation, I think is
worse than just deprivation. These parents wanted to see this
child deteriorate because there were visible signs of it. I
think at some point they wanted this child to die
and they were hoping she would just go away. And
the toys is to distract her so they don't have
(14:38):
to play with her or take care of her.
Speaker 7 (14:40):
The lack of medical care for Carmody shocks investigators as
they find Karmody's mother, Tamera Banks, had nearly lost a
child ten years before the death of Carmody in much
the same way. At that time, a four year old
son of Banks falls into a coma from previously undiagnosed diabetes.
Even after that child recovered, continued to neglect his medical needs,
(15:02):
failing to have him seen by a doctor, and never
attended any of his follow up appointments.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
As is so often the case, This is not the
first time a baby girl Carmedy dead after living off
nothing but mountain dew, baby bottles.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Nothing.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Choice Slaton is with me, high profile LA criminal defense
attorney as Layton Lawyers named after himself. No one would
claimed that's narcissistic at all, but Choice Layton. This is
not her first time.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
At the rodeo. Did you hear the reporter? The investigative reporter.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
They find out that Carmody's mother, Tamra Banks, nearly lost
a child ten years before Carmody's death the same way
a four year old son same age Carmony falls into
a coma for previously undiagnosed diabetes. Even after that little
(16:10):
boy Banks recovered, she continued to neglect his medical needs.
A why did the children get to stay in the home?
But B there's no way she can claim what diabetes?
Her son, then four, almost died the very same way.
What about that, Troy Slayton, What are you going to
(16:30):
do at trial now after I bring in that similar
transaction on you, because you know I will.
Speaker 9 (16:37):
The death of any child is a tragedy, and the
death of that beautiful little girl is absolutely a tragedy.
But for us to sit here on our high horses,
with our advanced degrees, you and me with juris doctorate degrees,
everyone else here with doctorate degrees, and you with the
smarts to know that you're not going to feed your
(16:57):
child soda. I don't think that this was an issue
of a mother not loving her daughter. This is a
situation where somebody was just dumb. Somebody was really really stupid,
and stupid does not equal criminal. This is somebody who
clearly wanted to provide. She wanted to provide for her.
(17:19):
There's toys everywhere, there's smiles, yes, there's Dorito's stained fingers.
But this is a person who was stupid, not a
person who wanted her child to be dead.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Are you three. I hope so.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
But I'm just checking Curv brand joining me, and I'm
so glad he's with US tonight. Former US Marshall in
the International Investigations Branch, author of Flying Solo, Top of
the World.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
That's part of a series of solo novels.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Oh, here's a new one Solo Journey boot up Nights,
Jack Solo mystery novel. Okay, Irv Brandt, I'd love to
keep going on and on about all of your accomplishments
in all of your books about Jack Solo AKAAU. But
how many times have you heard a defense attorney be
(18:12):
a horrible defense attorney or an excellent defense attorney renowned
in his feel like Slayton.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Say they're not bad, Du're just stupid.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
You think stupid people can't commit horrible crimes like letting
this little girl die.
Speaker 10 (18:28):
Me And see, you're exactly right. Stupid is not a
defense and for defense counsel. I don't have an advanced degree.
You see my degree over my shoulder. It's a bachelor's degree.
I don't have a doctorate like the rest of you.
And so I'll tell you, from my point of view,
this is horrifying and this is criminal. It's not neglect,
(18:52):
it's not a mistake. This is criminal intent when you're
talking about this type of abuse. And unfortunately, this little girl,
I can't believe that a family member or a friend
or someone didn't call child welfare services. If she would
have lived long enough to get into school, perhaps that
(19:15):
could have saved her life, because I know teachers and
people like that. You know that this would have been
reported if she would have made it into school, and
you know, possibly, you know, teachers, healthcare workers would have
been able to see her, and this tragedy could have
been prevented.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Well, I guess so, Brandt. All of her teeth were
rotting out.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
That have to know something was very, very wrong, Doctor
Michelle Duprey again, and I know it's really hard for you,
with all of your medical degree and experience and education
to please talk regular English, not Latin phrases or medical phrases. Please,
(20:00):
What does diabetes do to you? Why are this child's
teeth rotted out? Nancy is because of the sugar. Sugar,
As you know, sugar causes cavities in our teeth. And
she had no dental care whatsoever. She had too much sugar.
In fact, thirty six.
Speaker 8 (20:17):
Grams of sugar for a woman adult is the max.
She had much more than that in the Mountain do
and it basically rotted out her.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
But what does it do to your body?
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Like? Why did she and her brother both go into
a coma again because of too much sugar and not
being able to handle that in your body? Let me see,
This is why I had to go over every line
of an autopsy report with the doctor until I could
understand what she's saying.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Let me take you back in time, remember still Magnolia's.
Remember when Julia Roberts, who is diabetic, fell over and died.
She went into a diabetic coma and she died. Okay,
why did she die? I know it's because you have
too much sugar. I get that, But what happens to
(21:19):
your body? I mean, I can say she had too
much sugar, but what physically happens to your body?
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Why do you go into.
Speaker 8 (21:26):
A coma because there's too much sugar overload and your
liver then starts to break down fat in our body,
fat produces acid when it's an overload, and that acidic
are in your blood then causes you to go into
this coma. If it's not resolved, you die from that.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Okay, I'm starting to understand a little bit of what
you're saying. This little girl is dead after a very
short life, subsisting on nothing but baby bottles of mountain dew.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
That's what she had for four years. But what more
do we.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Learn about the fingerprint crime committed on her brother?
Speaker 7 (22:11):
Tamra Banks's oldest son, Jerry Banks, says what happened to
Carmody isn't a first for his mother. Jerry Banks says,
ten years ago, his little brother went lethargic, wouldn't move.
The only thing he would respond to his sugar. Jerry
Banks says this goes on for about thirty six hours
until he forces Tamra Banks to take his brother to
the hospital. Doctors were able to save the boy, who
(22:33):
was four years old at the time, the same age
as Carmody. Looking into the diabetes related brain injury death
of Carmody Hope, investigators find the little girl has never
been formally diagnosed with diabetes. They also discover her mother,
Tamra Banks, has been feeding the four year old a
mixture of mountain dew and baby formula through a bottle
long after she should have been weaned off the bottle,
(22:54):
causing her teeth to rot. Her teeth are almost all rotted,
but no record can be found of her parents taking
her to a dentist.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Okay, doctor Michelle Duprey joining me. Okay, doctor Dupriy, Sorry,
but I feel like I'm wrestling you on this, but
I'm not giving up. I'm going back in the ring
with you. Duprey does Okay? I know diabetes. You can
be born with diabetes. You can develop diabetes even if
(23:23):
you have a good diet. But can a regular diet
of nothing but this mountain dew? How many grams of sugar?
Does seventy seven grams of sugar in one of these?
So if she had three or four, five or six
baby bottles a day of this, sometimes mixed with formula,
(23:45):
can you create diabetes because of your diet? Can you
eat so many sweets and just so much mountain dew
that that gives you diabetes?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yes?
Speaker 8 (23:56):
Essentially, Nancy, You're absolutely correct, because again, the sugar overall,
it's what causes you to starve then not being able
to handle it, and your body starts breaking down fat
causing the acid. You know, our body is in a
state of equilibrium between acid and base, and when one
of those is out of whack, then it causes serious
injury to the body, and in this case, it's over
(24:18):
and over acid and that's what caused the death.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
As we're trying to figure out exactly how the mom
could have not known what was happening.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Back to Troy Slayton, dare I do it? Troy? Your
argument that, hey, she doesn't have a PhD like all
of you do.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
I hear you, And if I were used that you
have nowhere else to go, I'd probably argue the same
thing if I was a defense attorney. But that said,
duly noted, what about the fact that the same thing
happened a few years before with Carmeny's older brother when
he was four years old, he went into a diabetic
(24:56):
coma after being fed the Lord only knows what, almost died.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
And the mom was.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Forced to take him to the hospital by family members.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
He was in a diabetic coma, same.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Thing, So how can you argue with a straight face
she didn't have a PAHD where she knew this because
it happened before to her son.
Speaker 9 (25:20):
So this is what we would call in the defense business. Nancy,
A bad fact. That's something that you're gonna have to
deal with. This is a woman who clearly couldn't deal
with her own self. All the pictures that you show
she is morbidly obese. Her own teeth are decayne. She's
brought into courtroom in a wheelchair. She can't even support
(25:42):
her own weight. This is not the picture of health.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Guess who else just got wheeled into the courtroom and
a cut his mic? Guess who else just got wheeled
into the court in a wheelchair? Harvey Weinstein? You think
I care that he now has his lawyers by him
atop of the wine wheelchair to get rolled into the courtroom. Atlno.
And the fact that this mom comes in in a wheelchair, really,
(26:10):
you know what, I don't care. I don't care because
even in a wheelchair, this mom could have ordered this
child food. She didn't have to prepare it. And in
all the photos you see, she's not in a wheelchair.
She's in a wheelchair now now that she's charged with
the death of her child.
Speaker 9 (26:25):
She didn't keep her house clean, she didn't know how
to manage her own weight, she didn't know how to
manage her own teeth. Her husband also not the picture
of health. These are not people that knew how to
take care of themselves, let alone know how to take
care of a child.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
You really think that's going to win over a jury. Okay,
you know what, doctor Bethany Marshall. Can you hear him? Yes,
it's like a mosquito buzzing around my head. I keep
hearing it and.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
I can't catch it and make it stop. Respond to him.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
Okay, Nancy. Defense attorneys use the word stupidity. It drives
me crazy because this was not stupidity. That's not a defense.
This is a mother who resented the needs of her child.
That is a psychology of this. She did not want
to provide for her child, so she was hoping that
(27:19):
her child would die as soon as possible. That is
the bottom line. You can't get around it if you
look at Okay, Troy, look at any scholarly article on
fatal starvation, and what you'll see called philicide.
Speaker 9 (27:34):
Oh my goodness, she had every toy. She had every
toy available for her child.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
She had the Mickey Mouse guitar.
Speaker 9 (27:42):
She's in a sea of mini mouses.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
No, no, no, A lot of those came free from McDonald's.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Go ahead. Okay, So if you look at the.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
Literature on fatal starvation, it's interchangeably used with philicide. So
all the scholarly literature really links starving a child to
purposely killing the child. This is Childreywhere in the literature,
this is just the Troy. I'm sure you do. I'm
sure you do research when you go into court. You
(28:14):
cannot get around the psychology of this woman. This woman
was also a hoarder, so she did not even take
care of her house, herself, her child. But I want
to say furthermore, she did not want this.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Child to have needs.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
She did not. She used the cheapest form of keeping
a child alive so she wouldn't have to spend her
own money. I mean, how shallow is that? And do
you know what, hey, okay, you know what, Troy, all
those toys. She was trying to keep the child busy
so she didn't have to take care of the child.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
I would like to point something out, guys, very quickly,
Troy Slayton, you got to think again about your argument.
And I know what you're doing, Troy. You're doing what
any good defenses turning would do when your back is
against the wall.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
You have nowhere to go. You make something up. My mom, my.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Brother, and sister, and I are first generation college Okay.
My mother didn't have a PhD. She didn't even have
a Bachelor of Arts or Bachelor of Science a four years.
She didn't have an associates degree two years.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
She grew up working on a farm with an anonymous
donor providing her music lessons so she could go on
to play cello in the symphony and the piano and
the organ where you play with your hands and your
feet at the same time. She never ever had the
kind of education you're talking about, nor.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Did my dad. But on the weekends, you know what
we did while other kids are out of arcade.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
We were in the fields of our friends, our neighbors,
and our church friends because they would allow us, because
my mom played for the church for free, to pick
produce and then we will cook it, and then we
would have it fresh veggies, fresh fruit that we would
(30:13):
pick ourselves. I'm not telling your hard luck story.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
I'm glad that happened. But my mom didn't have what
you're talking about, a PhD.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Her mother grew up working in a tile factory for
Pete's sake, working a farm. They didn't have a PhD.
But they cared about their children. And you want to
tell me everybody on that jury wouldn't care about their children.
It's complete bs. I don't think you're being fair to
(30:45):
all the parents out there that didn't have the benefits
and luxuries.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
My parents gave me to get through law school.
Speaker 9 (30:51):
Because most parents have basic common sense, which clearly this
woman didn't. Most people have a basic moticum of an
understanding of basic nutrition, but that doesn't mean everybody does.
I would venture to guess that this woman wasn't working,
and that she was on some sort of disability welfare program.
(31:12):
She was just being given money. She wasn't didn't have
the street smarts that your mom and grandma had. She
didn't have that institutional knowledge in her family. She just
gave the child what she thought was needed in that moment,
to make the child happy, to put a smile on
the kid's face.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
When you give a kid.
Speaker 9 (31:31):
Candy, does a kid smile or does a kid say, Oh, no,
I don't want to eat that candy. That's not healthy
for me.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
The kid's gonna gobble it all up.
Speaker 9 (31:39):
Whatever they can.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Crime stores with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 5 (31:54):
Carmody dies as a direct result of neglect and abuse
from her parents. Carmody dies from diabetic keto acidosis or
d KA, which is an extreme complication of untreated diabetes.
Left untreated, it can cause coma and death, as in
Carmody's case.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
So, day by day, she watched her.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
Little girl get more and more pale. She watched her
daughter's teeth wrought out one by one, and she continued
to feed her nothing but baby bottles full of mountain dew,
seventy plus grams of sugar for one of these? How
(32:37):
many of these did the baby girl have every day?
Speaker 1 (32:41):
And it's not just Carmedy.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Carmeny's older brother went into a diabetic coma when he
was also four years old and had to be rushed
to the hospital in a coma. He lived, but after
that faithful night, mommy continued to ignore the child's medical
niece And hey, daddy, I'm not letting you off the hook.
(33:04):
You're going down to You're just as responsible as mommy.
I'm trying to figure out how this was kept from relatives, family, friends, neighbors.
I'm very curious why people don't come forward. IRV Brent
is joining us who has traveled all around the world
(33:24):
apprehending dangerous criminals.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
You know what, I think part of it is IRV.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
And the reason I introduced you that way is people
have in their minds who is a killer, what that
killer would look like. You might think of a sex
pervert as a guy wearing a trench coat at the
corner of a children's park. You may think a killer
as showing up and a malaclava over his face, or
(33:52):
carrying two guns. You don't think the mommy and the
home next to you are in the apartment next to you.
The mommy that smiles at you as she goes through
a car during the day, or spot her at the
grocery store, you don't think of her being a killer, right,
(34:13):
But you've seen killers in all shapes and sizes way.
Speaker 10 (34:16):
In No, that's exactly right, Nancy. It's just what you said.
In your mind, you have a preconceived notion of what
this person should look like, what this person should act like.
An evil person, you know, something from the movies, something
from a novel, and there is no type. I'm sure
(34:37):
this woman the neighbors. If you went and talked to
the neighbors about how nice she was, and they can't
believe that this happened because they could never conceive of
it in their mind. This is the part that I
find most complexing about this case is that no one
took notice that this little girl was dying right in
(35:01):
front of them, to watch her waste away like she
did until she finally went into a coma and couldn't
be revived. That's the part that I just can't understand,
and it's so tragic because it was so avoidable.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
Parents that think they're doing the right thing, could they
really be thinking that?
Speaker 1 (35:24):
I don't believe it.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
This mom is by far not the first to kill
their child by what they feed them.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Listen.
Speaker 7 (35:35):
She lo O Leary calls nine to one one in
Cape Coral, Florida, seeking help for her eighteen month old
son who is cold and not breathing. I thought he's
arrived and the malnourished child is pronounced dead. Ohlary tells
police they are vegans on a raw food diet of mangoes, bananas,
and avocados, but the toddler had not eaten solid food
in a week due to teething, so he had just
had breast milk. The medical examiner says the boy weighed
(35:56):
just seventeen pounds and died for malnutrition. She Lo Oliria
convicted a first degree murder and more sentenced to life
in prison.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Okay, what about that Slatin feeding the baby a raw
sued diet of mangoes, bananas, and avocados till the baby dies?
What about them? They're enlightened vegans.
Speaker 9 (36:17):
It's the same. It's awful, it's tragic, and it's clearly
people that don't understand how to nourish a human. I mean,
we can have days of discussions versus veganism, versus carnivore,
versus all types of other diets, but clearly this is
just another parent who didn't have the brains to know
(36:39):
how to take care of themselves, let alone take care
of a child.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
I bet you that mom wasn't living off nothing but soda.
I bet she was having full on meals and the
dad too, So why not the child? Dr Bethany Marshall,
you know this.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
Mother besides not wanting this child to live, the mother
was not bonded with this child. I've treated mothers in
my practice who are not bonded with their children. They
love to go out in public, go to parties, smile,
get a lot of attention. One moment in this past week,
a female patient said, you know, my happiest moment today
was when I was grocery shopping and saying hi to
(37:18):
everybody and seeing people I knew. Meanwhile, she spoke viciously
about her child. So not only are these mothers not bonded,
but I think we have to consider that homicide can
be formulated at an unconscious level. So while she may
not even consciously say, oh, I'm going to starve my
child to death, at some level, she's thinking, oh, goodie,
(37:41):
my child is not going to be here at some point.
That's why a fatal starvation, child neglect through starvation, and
philicide are all linked. They are one and the same.
They're not two separate things. Homicide and neglect go hand
in hand.
Speaker 5 (38:00):
Is a four year old with a big personality nicknamed Boogie.
She loves being silly and taking pictures, smiling big and
saying cheese, waking up with great joy and energy. She
loves playing with her Mickey Buddies and racing car. Carmody
is the type of child that warms the hearts of
everyone she comes in contact.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
You know where we got those words, those exact words
from four year old Kromeny's obituary that was written by
her mom and dad that killed her by mountain dew.
The mountain dew baby bottle. Baby four year old Caromeny
(38:42):
is now dead from horrible implications resulting from diabetes brought
onto a four year diet of nothing but mountain dew
and a baby bottle, sometimes mixed with formula. But it's
by far the first time a parent is killed by ingestion.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Listen.
Speaker 7 (39:03):
An obese three year old weighs sixty six pounds. His
mother is warned about proper diet. She feeds him junk food,
telling teachers at school he's too sickly to do any
physical fitness. As a teen, he's hospitalized with a heart
condition brought on by obesity. In the hospital, mom sneaks
fast food to her son until he dies of heart
failure at fifteen. Parents of another more bidle obese boy
are warned he could die if he doesn't lose weight.
(39:23):
At seven, his body mass index should be fourteen, his
is thirty. Parents ignore doctors and give the boy junk
food until he weighs over one hundred and seventy five
pounds at ten years old and has a heart attack
and his declared brain dead.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Doctor Bethany, what is wrong with these people?
Speaker 4 (39:36):
You know, it's hard to even say, Nancy, you know,
little Hart, because there's so many motivations, but always, always
at the root of it is not wanting the child
to have needs and feeling that the child is unconditionally bad.
I once treated a mother who was not bonded with
(39:57):
her children. They were all in a business to together,
and whenever it came time to pay the children their paychecks,
she would come in and insist to me that her
adult children were stealing from her. Okay, so she didn't
see that she was providing for them. She thought they
were stealing from her. Furthermore, children that are subjected to
(40:19):
fatal starvation, you almost always see that there's a padlock
on the fridge. Have you seen that where the parents
put chains on the fridge because they do not want
their children to have food they do not want to provide.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
Doctor Michelle Duprey, renowned forensic pathologists, medical examiner, and a
former detective with the Sheriff's Department. You've conducted well around
ten thousand autopsies. Does it ever matter to you clinically
or medically, whether the per has a pH D, like
(40:52):
Troce Layton was pointing out or not.
Speaker 8 (40:55):
No, Nancy, it never does. And sometimes in these cases
we also find that this can be a personality disorder
of the mother who was trying to get attention for
herself because her child is always so sick. It's called
munch house in my prodixy, and that may also be
a fact. But no, this is absolutely she's able to
take care of herself. She sees a doctor. That's no excuse.
(41:19):
Stupidity is not an excuse.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Investigative journalist Lauren Conlin, what happened to these two demons
from hell? The mom and dad?
Speaker 6 (41:27):
So Tamra got sentenced nine years and her husband is
do back in court in the middle of June, and
he could face up to thirteen years. So let's see
what happens.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
I'm ready nine years, nine years. Carmeny is dead and
she got a reduced play to involuntary manslaughter on nine years.
She'll be out in about four count on. It we
stop and we remember American hero Deputy Sheriff Michael Brown
from Cordel, Georgia, just twenty six. Sheriff Brown shot and
(42:05):
killed in the line of duty on a traffic stop
an Army National Guard Vet Deputy. Sheriff Brown leaves behind
a grieving mother and stepfather, Christina and Tom, brothers Jason
and Jeff, and his beloved dog Jenny. Sheriff Ty Brown Hero.
(42:30):
I want to thank all of our guests for being
with us tonight, leading us on a very rocky path
to justice. Nancy Gray signing off, good night friend.
Host
Nancy Grace
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