September 10, 2018 • 37 mins
A New Hampshire teen kidnapped and held captive for 9 months tells her story for the first time. Abby Hernandez, now 19, was getting ready to celebrate her 15th birthday when Nathaniel Kibby abducted her as she left school. Nancy Grace explores the case with Southern California prosecutor Wendy Patrick, Cold Case Research Institute director Sheryl McCollum, Los Angeles psycho analyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, Los Angeles lawyer Troy Slaten, medical examiner Dr. William Morrone, and Crime Stories reporter John Lemley.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm a lot of way
before the it was don't presiditating factors to this. We
didn't have a fight. I'm just started and still like
stoned and shocked, even after six months out of town.
(00:29):
Zen Your Hernandez spoke to us by phone Monday, just
after she published this message to Abby on the website
bring Abby home dot com. Sen your rights quote. In
the beginning, minutes and hours lasted eternity. Hours turned to days, weeks, months,
and the first days I didn't think I could survive
the blinding shock, not even for a week. But over
(00:50):
the past six months, then you has how have you
been even coping? Oh? I don't have a choice? Uh
show and I just don't have a choice. We have
to do. We're talking about Abigail her Nandez, a teen
girl who goes missing, last scene on school surveillance video.
(01:13):
How can that happen? I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
Thank you for being with us. We are taking your calls.
Nine zero nine four nine two seven four six three
nine zero nine four nine Crime Abby her Nandez. There's
been a stunning break in the case, but it all
goes back to the moment she was taken, the moment
(01:39):
she was kidnapped to Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold
Case Research Institute, let me just introduce everybody an all
star lineup just for you right now. Cheryl McCollum with me,
Cold Case Research Institute. Wendy Patrick, veteran California prosecutor. Dr
Bethany Marshall renounced like analysts out of l A. Veteran
(02:02):
defense attorney Troyce Layton, also from l A. Dr William Maroney,
renowned medical examiner and author of a new book American Narcan,
and Crime online dot Com investigative reporter John Limley. Cheryl McCollum,
you have two children. I have two children. I don't
get it. She's on school surveillance, everything's fine. Then she's
(02:25):
just gone like she never even existed, Cheryl, biggest nightmare.
You drop them all. You think they're fine, You think
you know, they've got teachers that normally care about them.
There's generally a school resource officer, and this child literally
vanishes with everybody around her that knows. Abby Hernandez, a
teen girl, seemingly just vanishes off the face of the earth.
(02:49):
How did she go missing? John Limley. Well. The mother
Zenya Hernandez really didn't think anything was strange at first.
When her fourteen year old daughter Abigail didn't come home
from school on in October afternoon, she thought, well, she
could be anywhere. She's probably at school with her friends.
Zenya is a nurse, happy life in North Conway, New Hampshire,
(03:11):
raising two daughters, Sarah and Abigail, also known as Abbey. Well.
As a new high school freshman, Abby studied German robotics,
love classic rock, so she was a busy kid. So
her not showing up from school, she was off exploring life.
And so when Abby didn't answer her mother's text, Zenya, well,
(03:32):
she did eventually begin to worry. Abby had never just
not shown up at home from school. Yeah, that was
the first alarm right then when she didn't answer her
mother's texts to Dr Bethany Marshall Psycho Alice joining us
out of l A. I mean with me and the
twins are about to turn eleven. You can't come down
(03:53):
on them every time they do, like for instance, when
John David places thirty one minutes of the Evil Fortnit
or as we call it, Fortnight. Uh, I can't come
down on him for that, or Lucy once again, we're
up at ten o'clock at night doing the homework she
was supposed to do at three thirty. Yeah, but long
story short, if you if you beat him over the
(04:13):
head every single time they do anything, pretty soon they're
gonna be climbing out in the bedroom window and you're
not going to see him at all. So you know,
you gotta temperate. So when Abby didn't answer the mom's
first couple of texts, moms like, Okay, I don't like it,
but I'm not gonna come down on her. But then
it went bad. It went sideways. Well it went bad
um just about two fifty seven, because that's when Abby
(04:37):
texted her boyfriend who was riding home on the bus,
and texted a little heart emoji to him. But I
think that might have been her last text. And you're
talking about John, David and Lucy. You know, there's such
a fine line between loving your children and then intruding
into them. I find with my nephews and nieces, I
always want to say, how is your day, how are
you doing? Did you do your homework? But pretty soon
they start to feel intruded on and control, so this
(05:01):
mom was trying to give her daughter a little space.
And this mom also no new Abby. She knew her daughter,
She knew that her daughter had a big life. A
John Lemley described love robotics, loved you know, all kinds
of things, and was also a very friendly young woman.
So she gave her a little space. So unfortunately, um
it was space in which bad things started to happen.
(05:23):
Little did mommy know then that her little girl Abby
would soon be held in a cargo container wearing a
shock collar around her neck. Listen as her friends beg
her to come home. Dear Abby, I cannot tell you
enough how much you are missed. I know you probably
(05:44):
have heard at some point that you are missed, but
I don't think it can be described and missing that
goes on the words we miss you, Abby. Flash across
the new video posted on the Bring Abbey Home website.
It's filled with messages from friends, updates on high school
moments she's missed since she disappeared. Hi, Abby, I know
I haven't seen you in a while, and I wrote
(06:05):
you a letter. But first I'd really like to show
you around my room because I repainted it and I
read it all. I really need you back because nobody
else like you. You're not only the funniest person I
will probably have the ability of meeting, but you make
my day just bias talking. It is another attempt to
reach Abby Hernandez last scene leaving Kennett High School in
(06:26):
North Conway last October. In December, her mother revealed that
she had received a letter from Abby, but no clues
were released as to why she vanished or where she
could be. Letters are also posted on the website. One
friend writes, I am missing our walks down to lunch
from algebra and our talks about the most random things.
Another says, one of the hardest things is knowing that
(06:48):
I can't talk to you when I need you the most.
But yeah, we just really really miss you. Abby. Please
be home soon. That's our friend Jane mcken. At w
M you are earlier, we heard from Nick spinetto at
w M. U are trying desperately to find Abby, her
friends posting videos pictures begging her to come home. They
(07:08):
had no idea that at that moment she was being
held in a cargo container by a freak who was
forcing her to call him Master and wear a shock
collar around her neck. What does that main to? Dr
William Moroney, you know, a veteran medical examiner, author of
(07:33):
a brand new book on Amazon American Narcan. Dr William Ronny.
We always here shock collar. What is a shock collar?
A shock collar is a conductive metal to bring a
charge from a battery to the skin. And the shock
collar is designed to be around the neck because that's
(07:54):
some of the thinnest skin on the human body, and
those are also some of the thickest neck muscles, and
they run up to the head and it causes pain.
It causes pain in the head, it causes pain and
back of the head, it causes pain in the jaw,
Whereas if you try to put a shot collar on
a somebody's thigh, it's not going to make the same
(08:18):
negative contribution. There's no negative feedback when you shock a big,
huge muscle, So you put it on the neck because
there's very thin skin and those muscles run up to
the head. Negative reinforcement. And it's operated by remote control,
infrared or ultrasound. They're used only sparingly on animals, usually
(08:41):
in training or for discipline, and then when the animals
learn the parameters of a yard and they no longer
run out of the yard. People take the shot collars
off or around small children to teach animals not to
impede on the space of a small child. But on
the human there's a big thick code of fur. And
(09:03):
like I said, those are very thin skin parts and
they go up to the head, very very negative reinforcing.
You know, Dr William Moroney, as learned and experienced as
you are, I guess you never thought you got a
medical skill to talk about a shot caller. Dr Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst.
He's telling me the physical impact of a shot caller.
(09:24):
But you look at it in a different way, Dr Bethany, Well,
I look at it as sadism. I know we've talked
about this so many times, but sadism is one of
the five perversions listed in the d s M. And
sadism is when a perpetrator wants to inflict pain on
a victim to enhance is his her own sexual arousal.
(09:45):
That's what it is, the end of the day. And
so you know, sadly, as soon as this perpetrator um
kidnapped Abby, I think he started to set up conditions
in which he could inflict pain upon her. I'm sure
there was psychological torture or physical torture. As you at earlier,
she was had held in a plastic container. I don't
know how big that container was. But one of the
(10:06):
things we know about sociopaths is that they have very
poor sexual arousal outside of inflicting pain on their victims.
In other words, they can't get turned on without hurting
another person. So the m O of the kidnapping, the abduction,
the infliction of pain is that it's a highly sexually
motivated crime. And when I think about this fourteen year
(10:29):
old girl being held and reportedly a cargo container wearing
a shot collar, it's almost more than I can think
my mind. Twins are soon to be eleven, that's just
three years away. Speaking of inflicting pain, if you have
heard about the murder of Jessica Chambers, you do not
(10:51):
want to miss the new docuseries on Oxygen, The true
story of a teen girl, a Mississippi cheerleader, burned alive,
the story of the man accused of this horrific crime.
Is the right man on trial? Who is he? And
who was Jessica Chambers? How does such a horrific crime
(11:12):
even happen more questions than answer is a case that
has captured American headlines, takes over social media, and leaves
a small town divided. A musty TV event, Unspeakable Crime,
The Killing of Jessica Chambers, air Saturday, September fift seven,
sixth Central on Oxygen, the new network for Crime. He said,
(11:36):
you know, I'm thinking of finding something a little more
humane for you to keep you quiet. So I'm thinking
of a shock collar. You know, they're like dogs. Where
a shock collar. I remember he put it on me
and he told me, okay, try and scream, and I
just slowly started to raise my voice and then it
shocked me. So he's like, okay, now you know what
(11:58):
it feels like. You know, did you ever learn his name?
Did he say anything about who he was? Actually, he
told me, um, call me, call me master. What a freak,
What a freak, A horrible monster that stole fourteen year
(12:18):
old Abby Hernandez, last seen on school video. Mom had
no idea what was happening. You are hearing our friends
at ABC's twenty in the voice of Abby Hernandez. Abby
Hernandez kidnapped and taken taken away from her home from
her mother from her school. It's hard for me to
(12:40):
take in Troy Slayton. You are the defense attorney, the
renowned defense attorney joining us out of l A. How
do you defend the use of a shot caller on
a little girl. You certainly can't. You can't defend the indefensible.
So in a case like this, you're simply looking to
make the best deal for your client and spare his life.
(13:04):
And so in this case you're trying to find any
mitigating circumstances. There anything possible in the case. Uh So
you can structure a plea deal, a plea bargain, as
it's known. Two. So that way that your client um
has is spared the pain of a trial and opens
(13:28):
up the possibility that he could be paroled at some
point in the future. You know, it's just just hurting
me to hear you even say paroled someday in the future.
We were talking about Abbe Hernandez, a fourteen year old
school girl tortured, horribly, repeatedly sex assaulted in a shipping container,
(13:50):
held for nine months. The reality is Cheryl McCullum, director
of the Cold Case Research Institute, the fact that she
survived is the miracle after the first week. Statistically she
should have been dead. No question that in and of
itself is a miracle. But I'm gonna tell you something.
(14:10):
While the defense attorney is going out trying to figure
out a mitigating circumstance to get his hunt to best deal,
if this were my case, I'd be hit in the
streets talking to every prostitute I can find to tell
me stories about this guy. I'll be going to every
six shop in that town finding out stories about this guy.
He didn't go from zero to the shipping container to
(14:31):
kidnapping this child with a shock caller. There are stories
all over the place about this guy, and I would
get every one of them, every single one. Cheryl McCollum
to Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. She's right, this guy didn't
go from zero to to fifty uh mph, just like that.
(14:52):
He's got to have a history before he did this. Wendy,
you bet, and I'm gonna say amen, Cheryl. You know
there's all sorts of incidents out there that the prosecution
can find, although they didn't need to in this case
because after he let her go by the way, not
out of the grace of his heart, but because he
thought the police were going to raid his home. You
talk about mitigating circumstances, which Troy has to that's his
(15:14):
role in the case. But in terms of aggravating circumstances,
the duration, the length of time, the sophistication, the shock collar,
all of the extent to which he took and that's
another reason. You know, he didn't go from zero to
the shipping container. All of that they can put together,
including whatever they can find in the community. It is
a miracle he didn't get ten tho life sentences out
(15:36):
of this case. But I think we can all rest
easy that he will not be paroles Well do you
think he won't? Right? But remember remember I'm so often.
For instance, Charles Manson at the time was going to
get the death penalty, but then suddenly, whoops, they reversed it.
So he managed to live out his life basically dying
from old age. After having Internet relationships and money making
(15:59):
machine Sheen, celebrity visitors, the works. Things happened. I fully
believe he could easily be paroled in a number of years.
And what threw a lot of people off was that
she was caught. She Abby, the little girl was caught
on security surveillance video at her mom's home walking in
(16:23):
the front door looking like everything was okay. In fact,
I'm looking at it right now. There she is. She's
dressed in a striped top and dark boots. She's holding
her hand up to her mouth, which is a uh as.
She's walking alone, which is a sign of fear or
shock or trepidation. And she's walking along a short path
(16:45):
that leads up to the doorstep of her home in Hampshire.
People saw that and went, oh, she just went out,
she's been on a walk about, she ran away and
now she's home. But Cheryl McCullum, you're right. He let
her go for a reason that s ob He did
not want to get caught and think about after nine
(17:06):
months of torture physically, sexually, mentally, psychologically. He has been
messing with her for nine months, four hours a day.
She's probably almost walking up to that door in a fog,
like is this real? Am I really going to be safe?
Am I really going to be in my own house
with my mom in my own bedroom. She was probably stunned.
(17:30):
You know, I'm trying to take in what really happened
to her. Dr William Moroney with me, very well known
medical examiner joining us the author of a brand new
book on Amazon American Narkan Dr Moroney. She was thin,
she looked emaciated. It's like she had been a po w,
(17:53):
a prisoner of war. Dr Maroney. That's exactly what happens
to the body in prisoner of war camps from World
War two a way through Southeast Asia. What you have
is a lack of access of good exercises causes muscle atrophy.
People lose their tone, and you can never keep up
(18:15):
a good calorie count, so you lose weight in general,
and then the body begins to burn fat because you
don't have enough calories. Then you get sunken eyes, you
you lose um, good, solid, healthy round facial features. Now
(18:36):
these can all come back with exercise and a good diet.
But it's a very common syndrome that we saw all
the way through. Most likely it's it's dramatized by some
of the pictures we saw from Auschwitz. People lose body fat,
people lose muscle, then they're weak, they have poor posture,
(19:00):
and don't forget the internal organs they're suffering because you're
not eating well. And where's the sunshine and the fresh air,
and how about cleaneliness. You lose the opportunity to have
a natural um biological just kind of good healthy bacteria
(19:25):
on you, the good stuff that keeps the bad stuff away,
So you're prone to disease. You're prone to infections, fungal infections,
yeast infections, bladder infections, skin infections, so all sorts of
things go wrong and you don't have an immune system
to fight back. It was during an interview that Abigail
(19:47):
Hernandez told detectives from the Conway Police Department and New
Hampshire State Police that it was Nathaniel Kibbey that helder captive.
According to the affidavit, Abigail told detectives that at one
point during her confinement, Kimby quote handed her a cookbook
that had the name Nate Kibby written inside, and he
(20:07):
also provided her with a ruler that had the initials
N E K written on it. Abby says she used
paper from a notebook and was given a pen so
she could write a letter to her mother and her boyfriend.
When asked by detectives if she could provide more details
about where she was being held, Abigail quote remembered seeing
(20:28):
a framed copy of the Declaration of Independence hanging on
the wall a leopard print blanket on the bed. At
the end of the interview, detectives presented a photo lineup
of eight men that included a photo of Kimby. The
affidavit says she immediately picked out Nathaniel Kimby without hesitation,
and that she broke down emotionally and said she was
(20:52):
percent sure the man in the photo was the man
who took her. You're hearing our friends at w m
U are detailing what happened after Abby came home and
how she revealed to the police who kidnapped her. Okay,
you know what, I'm just gonna put it out there.
(21:12):
I love the Declaration of Independence, and yes it's me
that carries around a pocket copy of the Constitution. But
you know what, this freak had the Declaration of Independence
framed on his wall. That tells me a lot about him.
But hey, I'm just a j D. You're the psychoanalyst
Dr Bethany Marshall out of l a way in Well.
(21:35):
I thought that was pretty ironic to the Declaration of
Independence on his wall while he's putting a choke caller
on a fourteen year old or a shock caller and
asking her to call him master. There have to be
other people in his life that he had ultimate power over,
whether it was a girlfriend, um, a prostitute that he
picked up the quite a minute right there, right there.
(21:58):
You know he's been with hook I mean, please, I'm
telling you, Cheryl McCollum. Dr Bethany's right, he has been
uh exerting the same genre of hateful conduct toward hookers.
I guarantee you, Cheryl, there's no doubt about it. And
I'm telling you some of these women, unfortunately, are not
(22:21):
going to come forward. They're not going to call the police.
But everyone they might be. Dad, Cheryl, have you thought
of that? Absolutely? I will get into that. But again
with this guy, I am telling you those were his
test humans. Those were his test subjects. He has lived
out part of this fantasy repeatedly on women that he paid.
(22:43):
Now you see him living it out for real. That's
all this is in his Fifty Shades of Perversion. You
know to Dr William are only medical examiner and author.
Listen to this. He had the Declaration of Independence on
his wall framed. Nothing wrong with that, turns out he
was a gun nut that believed there would absolutely be
(23:05):
a zombie apocalypse. Help me, Dr Maroney, here's the problem
with a lot of the people that buy into that genre.
I don't know how you're gonna finish that sentence with
just one problem. Here's the problem. There's so many problems,
Dr Maroney, with this gun zombie A copyn live in
this real world, can't follow laws. People feel bored and
(23:29):
they look for some television, big style movie lifestyle saving
the world fighting zombie. He's delusionals. As a medical person,
when you see somebody like this, you look for activities
a daily living. Can they function, Do they have a job,
do they have friends? Do they pay taxes? And at
(23:49):
every level he's probably deficient. The only thing we haven't
talked about is is he suffering from rabid substance abuse?
Is this guy lost in illicit drawing? Are you making
excuses for him? I thought you were on my side, Maroney,
because there's tens of thousands of people out there like
(24:11):
him that just start locking teenage girls up in boxes.
All sorts of people believe this not my neighborhood. But
what you're telling me is you think he's got some
mental defect. Really you think so. So, if he's got
a mental defect, Maroney, how did he manage to keep
it a secret for nine months? He kept keeps this
girl in a storage container on some secluded property. Nobody
(24:37):
could find her. He's right there under their noses. He
outsmarted everybody crazy like a fox. This guy isn't crazy, Maroney.
It's antisocial personality disorder. He keeps away from other people.
It's we're gonna have a hard time finding people that
really know him. And in the end, it's isolation instead
(24:59):
of cohabitation. If he'd integrated healthy in junior high, in society,
in an occupation where he could be normal, pay taxes,
have a job, none of this stuff develops. It's when
you pull yourself in and you live with a computer
screen and you're only on the internet, and you really
(25:19):
believe in the stupid zombie garbage. Then you reach out
and locked people up in containers because of strange relationships.
These are all abnormal relationships at different levels. He may
need lifelong, instant institutionalization and therefore never get parole because
his brain is so scrambled. It's like a frittata on
(25:42):
the south side of Manhattan real thought about it like that.
Troy Slayton, Uh, this is where you come in. I say,
the guys totally sane. He's just evil. And Troy Slayton,
I know you're too sophisticated and educated to believe that
there is evil like the devil in this world. But
I am telling you, Troy Slaton, there is, and this
(26:04):
guy Kibby is the devil. Evil Troy, Is that a
defense in the codebook? It's certainly not. But there are
there are plenty people that are evil that don't go
and do things like this, like Dr Moroney described antisocial behavior.
So as a defense attorney, I am looking, like I said,
(26:27):
for any anything that could be mitigating, including a potential
uh mental defect that would have caused him to engage
in this activity. That might provide the opportunity for him
to receive mental health assistance while he's incarcerated, so that way,
(26:49):
maybe at some point in the future he can be
rehabilitated and restored to society. Listen, I noticed on the
door there were wires. They were like screws and then wires.
And he told me that he tripped the door so
that if for any reason it was busted open, the
(27:11):
room would catch on fire, so that you couldn't survive
if somebody found this, somebody kicked open the door, that
I would quickly go up in flames, basically, So there
was a lot of psychological intimidation and fear. Here were
you on edge all this time? Yeah, I was afraid
that the room would set on fire. And there was
(27:31):
a camera that was always blinking like a security camera,
and I thought he was watching me. That's from our
friends at. It was almost like it was a shock,
like I had a shutter and I couldn't believe what
I was saying. That was such a beautiful moment. She
remember just the look on her face. I remember seeing her.
(27:52):
She looked different, she really did. I could see stress,
those months of stress in her face, and it kind
of killed me a little bit. But I was just
so relieved to see you are hearing from our friends
at David Muir and Amy Roboc That is Abby seeing
her mother for the first time. And I'm totally covered
(28:15):
in goose bumps right now. Cheryl McCollum. Sometimes I start
crying when the twins. My eyes cheer up when the
twins come out of school. For me, to pick him up. Okay,
can you imagine one of your two beautiful children coming
up the Oh, it's too much. And Cheryl, you are
the director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Most of
your cases you deal with, the parents have never had
(28:37):
that moment where the child comes home. It never happens.
And then at a miracle, the mom sees like the
prodigal son at a distance, she sees her daughter coming
up to the front porch. Is the miracle, Nancy, And
then you know to say they have that moment, which
is just unbelievable. It is absolutely a miracle. And then
(28:59):
all of this information comes out about what happened to
that child repeatedly every day for nine months in a
cargo container, wearing a shot collar, being sex assaulted, raped
and beaten every single day. And the ways I want
to say one thing about whether or not this guy
knew right from wrong. He damn well knew it was
(29:21):
wrong because what he thought the police were coming he
had to get rid of. He absolutely had the capacity
to understand what he was doing was illegal. His action
fruit absolutely and that's just where I was head at CHERYLD.
Thank you, John Limley, and all cracked wide open because
of another girl. This is why Abby Hernandez was released
(29:45):
and probably why she's alive right now. A young girl
that had fallen in with the wrong craft and they
go party at a local hotel for the weekend, and
she decides to go onto a dating website. And she
goes on to a dating website and who should show
up to her her hotel room but Nathaniel Kimby And
then what happened? Give it to me in a nutshell, Limley, Well,
(30:07):
this is where two cases come colliding. Lauren Monday did
go on this date with Kibby. She knew absolutely nothing
about Abby, that he was holding a team captive. And
it all came down to Monday using counterfeit money that
Kimby had given her. So Kibby leaves a couple of
fifties when he leaves, and she tries to use him
(30:28):
at Walmart. The next day, she's picked up for counterfeit money.
And she's so mad at the guy that left at
her date, Jay going by the name Jay, so she
calls him and blesses him out on her cell phone.
And that's when Kimby, as Troy Slateman, have you believe
is insane? Thought? Oh, no, She's called me on my
cell phone. Cops are gonna come here, and he lets
(30:51):
Abby go. Let's Abby go. Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. You
know what, the truth is ranger than fiction, right? Oh?
Amen to that as well. Not only is the truth
stranger than fiction, but one of the reasons that this
is such an inspirational story in retrospect is you talk
about evil, you also talk about good and the what
(31:12):
this woman did, This young woman, this brave young woman
who prayed every single day and actually, according to some
of whom have looked at this in retrospect, was the
textbook victim. In terms of talking to this guy. This
is another thing that belies the notion that he was
insane or mentally deranged. In some sense, actually had the
wherewithal to bond with this guy. He knew what he
(31:33):
was doing. She became a sort of trusted confidante to
the extent that he gave her books to read, one
of which had his name in it. So you talk
about resourcefulness. Also, this also goes to the aggravating circumstances
that I would argue as a prosecutor. He knew exactly
what he was doing. The entire time he held her captive,
and that is one of the things that will be
(31:54):
considered and was considered in his sentencing. You know, Dr
William Rowney, um estaimed medical examiner and author of a
brand new book on Amazon American arcan Dr Maroney. You
know they don't like you to talk about this on TV,
but I can tell you this much, and I think
you'll agree with me. It wasn't just resourcefulness. It was
(32:14):
a miracle. This girl did pray every day that she
would be free to see her mother again, and she
was delivered. I firmly believe that, Dr Maroney. Sometimes you
have to admit what breaks down in everyday life is
we have good and evil, and we have choices. We
(32:37):
can make it take us down one path or another.
Her salvation was her faith. His reprehensible sick behavior is
the consequence of evil. Clearly, whether it's medicine, science, law, entertainment,
(33:00):
every day everything breaks down. Do we have choices between
good and evil? Now some people want to soften that
a little, between good and bad. I only think it
comes down to good and evil. I'm gonna take Dr
William Moroney's ethical philosophizing, with which I agree. I'm going
right back down the crapper with Dr Bethany Marshall. Okay,
(33:22):
here we are, Dr Bethany, as we have been so
many times before. You know, what's interesting about what you
said earlier, You know, you and I we get right
down in the mud. Okay, Dr Bethany. What you said
earlier about the sato messochistic aspect of how he could
only enjoy being with her if he were hurting her.
(33:43):
When he was with Lauren Monday, they fell asleep cuddling
and there was no sex right probably because he couldn't
he couldn't get an erection. He couldn't, he couldn't maintain
an erection and arousal unless he's inflicting cruelty on someone.
So there there's actually a very specific reason for this,
and the idea is that sociopaths have inner deadness or boredom.
(34:07):
Dr William Moroney used the word a board earlier in
the show when he was talking about you know tibbitts Our.
Ma'm sorry, um Nathaniel's preoccupation with zombies and he was
a gun nut. But so we know that they have
inner deadness boredom. They can't experience excitement in the normal ways,
whether it's sexual arousal or just the excitement of being alive.
(34:28):
They can't just look at a flower, watch a movie,
enjoy their relationships. The deadness leads them to a psychic
situation where they use cruelty, sadism, um, aggression, and seeing
fear in the eyes of the other in order to
ride the excitement of the infliction of pain in order
(34:50):
to gain that sexual arousal. And so that's why often
with sex crimes, I mean, take someone like the beat
k killer, there's often not we don't find at the
crime scene that semen honor in the body. Often there's
either no semen in the room even or the semen
is deposited somewhere completely away from the body because they're
(35:12):
so they're so busy inflicting the pain that the normal
type of sexual interaction never even occurs. It's like they
masturbate in frustration, maybe hours after the infliction of cruelty,
but they cannot have normal ejaculation while with the victims. Okay,
Down in the Mud with Dr Bethany, you know that
sounds like a great podcast. Down in the Mud with
(35:32):
Dr Bethany. Guys, I am amazed to say that there
is a happy ending. Listen. There were no cars coming
either way, and he said get out, So I got out,
and then he yelled, give me my hat back, give
me my hat back. I took the hat off, I
threw it in the car, slammed the door, and he
drove off, just like that, Just like that, that was it.
(35:58):
I remember looking up in Las laughing, just being so happy, like,
oh my god, this actually happened. I'm a free person.
I never thought it would happen to me, but I'm free.
And I just walked home, just never before seeing footage
of Abby returning home caught on the family security camera.
(36:20):
I remember when I came up to my doorstep. I
could hear my mom talking on the phone. I could
hear her voice opening the door and I said, Mom,
I remember she said Abby, and remember she ran out.
It was almost like it was a shock, like I
had a shutter and I couldn't believe what I was saying.
That was such a beautiful moment, she remembered. Just to
(36:43):
look on her face, I remember seeing her, and she
looked different, she really did. I could see stress, those
months of stress in her face, and it kind of
killed me a little bit, but I was just so
relieved to see her from our ends at ABC's twenty
well a miracle. Abbey is alive and Kimby is behind
(37:08):
bars for a very long time. All I can say
is p t L. Nancy graces Crime Story, signing off
goodbye friend.
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm a lot of way
before the it was don't presiditating factors to this. We
didn't have a fight. I'm just started and still like
stoned and shocked, even after six months out of town.
(00:29):
Zen Your Hernandez spoke to us by phone Monday, just
after she published this message to Abby on the website
bring Abby home dot com. Sen your rights quote. In
the beginning, minutes and hours lasted eternity. Hours turned to days, weeks, months,
and the first days I didn't think I could survive
the blinding shock, not even for a week. But over
(00:50):
the past six months, then you has how have you
been even coping? Oh? I don't have a choice? Uh
show and I just don't have a choice. We have
to do. We're talking about Abigail her Nandez, a teen
girl who goes missing, last scene on school surveillance video.
(01:13):
How can that happen? I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
Thank you for being with us. We are taking your calls.
Nine zero nine four nine two seven four six three
nine zero nine four nine Crime Abby her Nandez. There's
been a stunning break in the case, but it all
goes back to the moment she was taken, the moment
(01:39):
she was kidnapped to Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold
Case Research Institute, let me just introduce everybody an all
star lineup just for you right now. Cheryl McCollum with me,
Cold Case Research Institute. Wendy Patrick, veteran California prosecutor. Dr
Bethany Marshall renounced like analysts out of l A. Veteran
(02:02):
defense attorney Troyce Layton, also from l A. Dr William Maroney,
renowned medical examiner and author of a new book American Narcan,
and Crime online dot Com investigative reporter John Limley. Cheryl McCollum,
you have two children. I have two children. I don't
get it. She's on school surveillance, everything's fine. Then she's
(02:25):
just gone like she never even existed, Cheryl, biggest nightmare.
You drop them all. You think they're fine, You think
you know, they've got teachers that normally care about them.
There's generally a school resource officer, and this child literally
vanishes with everybody around her that knows. Abby Hernandez, a
teen girl, seemingly just vanishes off the face of the earth.
(02:49):
How did she go missing? John Limley. Well. The mother
Zenya Hernandez really didn't think anything was strange at first.
When her fourteen year old daughter Abigail didn't come home
from school on in October afternoon, she thought, well, she
could be anywhere. She's probably at school with her friends.
Zenya is a nurse, happy life in North Conway, New Hampshire,
(03:11):
raising two daughters, Sarah and Abigail, also known as Abbey. Well.
As a new high school freshman, Abby studied German robotics,
love classic rock, so she was a busy kid. So
her not showing up from school, she was off exploring life.
And so when Abby didn't answer her mother's text, Zenya, well,
(03:32):
she did eventually begin to worry. Abby had never just
not shown up at home from school. Yeah, that was
the first alarm right then when she didn't answer her
mother's texts to Dr Bethany Marshall Psycho Alice joining us
out of l A. I mean with me and the
twins are about to turn eleven. You can't come down
(03:53):
on them every time they do, like for instance, when
John David places thirty one minutes of the Evil Fortnit
or as we call it, Fortnight. Uh, I can't come
down on him for that, or Lucy once again, we're
up at ten o'clock at night doing the homework she
was supposed to do at three thirty. Yeah, but long
story short, if you if you beat him over the
(04:13):
head every single time they do anything, pretty soon they're
gonna be climbing out in the bedroom window and you're
not going to see him at all. So you know,
you gotta temperate. So when Abby didn't answer the mom's
first couple of texts, moms like, Okay, I don't like it,
but I'm not gonna come down on her. But then
it went bad. It went sideways. Well it went bad
um just about two fifty seven, because that's when Abby
(04:37):
texted her boyfriend who was riding home on the bus,
and texted a little heart emoji to him. But I
think that might have been her last text. And you're
talking about John, David and Lucy. You know, there's such
a fine line between loving your children and then intruding
into them. I find with my nephews and nieces, I
always want to say, how is your day, how are
you doing? Did you do your homework? But pretty soon
they start to feel intruded on and control, so this
(05:01):
mom was trying to give her daughter a little space.
And this mom also no new Abby. She knew her daughter,
She knew that her daughter had a big life. A
John Lemley described love robotics, loved you know, all kinds
of things, and was also a very friendly young woman.
So she gave her a little space. So unfortunately, um
it was space in which bad things started to happen.
(05:23):
Little did mommy know then that her little girl Abby
would soon be held in a cargo container wearing a
shock collar around her neck. Listen as her friends beg
her to come home. Dear Abby, I cannot tell you
enough how much you are missed. I know you probably
(05:44):
have heard at some point that you are missed, but
I don't think it can be described and missing that
goes on the words we miss you, Abby. Flash across
the new video posted on the Bring Abbey Home website.
It's filled with messages from friends, updates on high school
moments she's missed since she disappeared. Hi, Abby, I know
I haven't seen you in a while, and I wrote
(06:05):
you a letter. But first I'd really like to show
you around my room because I repainted it and I
read it all. I really need you back because nobody
else like you. You're not only the funniest person I
will probably have the ability of meeting, but you make
my day just bias talking. It is another attempt to
reach Abby Hernandez last scene leaving Kennett High School in
(06:26):
North Conway last October. In December, her mother revealed that
she had received a letter from Abby, but no clues
were released as to why she vanished or where she
could be. Letters are also posted on the website. One
friend writes, I am missing our walks down to lunch
from algebra and our talks about the most random things.
Another says, one of the hardest things is knowing that
(06:48):
I can't talk to you when I need you the most.
But yeah, we just really really miss you. Abby. Please
be home soon. That's our friend Jane mcken. At w
M you are earlier, we heard from Nick spinetto at
w M. U are trying desperately to find Abby, her
friends posting videos pictures begging her to come home. They
(07:08):
had no idea that at that moment she was being
held in a cargo container by a freak who was
forcing her to call him Master and wear a shock
collar around her neck. What does that main to? Dr
William Moroney, you know, a veteran medical examiner, author of
(07:33):
a brand new book on Amazon American Narcan. Dr William Ronny.
We always here shock collar. What is a shock collar?
A shock collar is a conductive metal to bring a
charge from a battery to the skin. And the shock
collar is designed to be around the neck because that's
(07:54):
some of the thinnest skin on the human body, and
those are also some of the thickest neck muscles, and
they run up to the head and it causes pain.
It causes pain in the head, it causes pain and
back of the head, it causes pain in the jaw,
Whereas if you try to put a shot collar on
a somebody's thigh, it's not going to make the same
(08:18):
negative contribution. There's no negative feedback when you shock a big,
huge muscle, So you put it on the neck because
there's very thin skin and those muscles run up to
the head. Negative reinforcement. And it's operated by remote control,
infrared or ultrasound. They're used only sparingly on animals, usually
(08:41):
in training or for discipline, and then when the animals
learn the parameters of a yard and they no longer
run out of the yard. People take the shot collars
off or around small children to teach animals not to
impede on the space of a small child. But on
the human there's a big thick code of fur. And
(09:03):
like I said, those are very thin skin parts and
they go up to the head, very very negative reinforcing.
You know, Dr William Moroney, as learned and experienced as
you are, I guess you never thought you got a
medical skill to talk about a shot caller. Dr Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst.
He's telling me the physical impact of a shot caller.
(09:24):
But you look at it in a different way, Dr Bethany, Well,
I look at it as sadism. I know we've talked
about this so many times, but sadism is one of
the five perversions listed in the d s M. And
sadism is when a perpetrator wants to inflict pain on
a victim to enhance is his her own sexual arousal.
(09:45):
That's what it is, the end of the day. And
so you know, sadly, as soon as this perpetrator um
kidnapped Abby, I think he started to set up conditions
in which he could inflict pain upon her. I'm sure
there was psychological torture or physical torture. As you at earlier,
she was had held in a plastic container. I don't
know how big that container was. But one of the
(10:06):
things we know about sociopaths is that they have very
poor sexual arousal outside of inflicting pain on their victims.
In other words, they can't get turned on without hurting
another person. So the m O of the kidnapping, the abduction,
the infliction of pain is that it's a highly sexually
motivated crime. And when I think about this fourteen year
(10:29):
old girl being held and reportedly a cargo container wearing
a shot collar, it's almost more than I can think
my mind. Twins are soon to be eleven, that's just
three years away. Speaking of inflicting pain, if you have
heard about the murder of Jessica Chambers, you do not
(10:51):
want to miss the new docuseries on Oxygen, The true
story of a teen girl, a Mississippi cheerleader, burned alive,
the story of the man accused of this horrific crime.
Is the right man on trial? Who is he? And
who was Jessica Chambers? How does such a horrific crime
(11:12):
even happen more questions than answer is a case that
has captured American headlines, takes over social media, and leaves
a small town divided. A musty TV event, Unspeakable Crime,
The Killing of Jessica Chambers, air Saturday, September fift seven,
sixth Central on Oxygen, the new network for Crime. He said,
(11:36):
you know, I'm thinking of finding something a little more
humane for you to keep you quiet. So I'm thinking
of a shock collar. You know, they're like dogs. Where
a shock collar. I remember he put it on me
and he told me, okay, try and scream, and I
just slowly started to raise my voice and then it
shocked me. So he's like, okay, now you know what
(11:58):
it feels like. You know, did you ever learn his name?
Did he say anything about who he was? Actually, he
told me, um, call me, call me master. What a freak,
What a freak, A horrible monster that stole fourteen year
(12:18):
old Abby Hernandez, last seen on school video. Mom had
no idea what was happening. You are hearing our friends
at ABC's twenty in the voice of Abby Hernandez. Abby
Hernandez kidnapped and taken taken away from her home from
her mother from her school. It's hard for me to
(12:40):
take in Troy Slayton. You are the defense attorney, the
renowned defense attorney joining us out of l A. How
do you defend the use of a shot caller on
a little girl. You certainly can't. You can't defend the indefensible.
So in a case like this, you're simply looking to
make the best deal for your client and spare his life.
(13:04):
And so in this case you're trying to find any
mitigating circumstances. There anything possible in the case. Uh So
you can structure a plea deal, a plea bargain, as
it's known. Two. So that way that your client um
has is spared the pain of a trial and opens
(13:28):
up the possibility that he could be paroled at some
point in the future. You know, it's just just hurting
me to hear you even say paroled someday in the future.
We were talking about Abbe Hernandez, a fourteen year old
school girl tortured, horribly, repeatedly sex assaulted in a shipping container,
(13:50):
held for nine months. The reality is Cheryl McCullum, director
of the Cold Case Research Institute, the fact that she
survived is the miracle after the first week. Statistically she
should have been dead. No question that in and of
itself is a miracle. But I'm gonna tell you something.
(14:10):
While the defense attorney is going out trying to figure
out a mitigating circumstance to get his hunt to best deal,
if this were my case, I'd be hit in the
streets talking to every prostitute I can find to tell
me stories about this guy. I'll be going to every
six shop in that town finding out stories about this guy.
He didn't go from zero to the shipping container to
(14:31):
kidnapping this child with a shock caller. There are stories
all over the place about this guy, and I would
get every one of them, every single one. Cheryl McCollum
to Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. She's right, this guy didn't
go from zero to to fifty uh mph, just like that.
(14:52):
He's got to have a history before he did this. Wendy,
you bet, and I'm gonna say amen, Cheryl. You know
there's all sorts of incidents out there that the prosecution
can find, although they didn't need to in this case
because after he let her go by the way, not
out of the grace of his heart, but because he
thought the police were going to raid his home. You
talk about mitigating circumstances, which Troy has to that's his
(15:14):
role in the case. But in terms of aggravating circumstances,
the duration, the length of time, the sophistication, the shock collar,
all of the extent to which he took and that's
another reason. You know, he didn't go from zero to
the shipping container. All of that they can put together,
including whatever they can find in the community. It is
a miracle he didn't get ten tho life sentences out
(15:36):
of this case. But I think we can all rest
easy that he will not be paroles Well do you
think he won't? Right? But remember remember I'm so often.
For instance, Charles Manson at the time was going to
get the death penalty, but then suddenly, whoops, they reversed it.
So he managed to live out his life basically dying
from old age. After having Internet relationships and money making
(15:59):
machine Sheen, celebrity visitors, the works. Things happened. I fully
believe he could easily be paroled in a number of years.
And what threw a lot of people off was that
she was caught. She Abby, the little girl was caught
on security surveillance video at her mom's home walking in
(16:23):
the front door looking like everything was okay. In fact,
I'm looking at it right now. There she is. She's
dressed in a striped top and dark boots. She's holding
her hand up to her mouth, which is a uh as.
She's walking alone, which is a sign of fear or
shock or trepidation. And she's walking along a short path
(16:45):
that leads up to the doorstep of her home in Hampshire.
People saw that and went, oh, she just went out,
she's been on a walk about, she ran away and
now she's home. But Cheryl McCullum, you're right. He let
her go for a reason that s ob He did
not want to get caught and think about after nine
(17:06):
months of torture physically, sexually, mentally, psychologically. He has been
messing with her for nine months, four hours a day.
She's probably almost walking up to that door in a fog,
like is this real? Am I really going to be safe?
Am I really going to be in my own house
with my mom in my own bedroom. She was probably stunned.
(17:30):
You know, I'm trying to take in what really happened
to her. Dr William Moroney with me, very well known
medical examiner joining us the author of a brand new
book on Amazon American Narkan Dr Moroney. She was thin,
she looked emaciated. It's like she had been a po w,
(17:53):
a prisoner of war. Dr Maroney. That's exactly what happens
to the body in prisoner of war camps from World
War two a way through Southeast Asia. What you have
is a lack of access of good exercises causes muscle atrophy.
People lose their tone, and you can never keep up
(18:15):
a good calorie count, so you lose weight in general,
and then the body begins to burn fat because you
don't have enough calories. Then you get sunken eyes, you
you lose um, good, solid, healthy round facial features. Now
(18:36):
these can all come back with exercise and a good diet.
But it's a very common syndrome that we saw all
the way through. Most likely it's it's dramatized by some
of the pictures we saw from Auschwitz. People lose body fat,
people lose muscle, then they're weak, they have poor posture,
(19:00):
and don't forget the internal organs they're suffering because you're
not eating well. And where's the sunshine and the fresh air,
and how about cleaneliness. You lose the opportunity to have
a natural um biological just kind of good healthy bacteria
(19:25):
on you, the good stuff that keeps the bad stuff away,
So you're prone to disease. You're prone to infections, fungal infections,
yeast infections, bladder infections, skin infections, so all sorts of
things go wrong and you don't have an immune system
to fight back. It was during an interview that Abigail
(19:47):
Hernandez told detectives from the Conway Police Department and New
Hampshire State Police that it was Nathaniel Kibbey that helder captive.
According to the affidavit, Abigail told detectives that at one
point during her confinement, Kimby quote handed her a cookbook
that had the name Nate Kibby written inside, and he
(20:07):
also provided her with a ruler that had the initials
N E K written on it. Abby says she used
paper from a notebook and was given a pen so
she could write a letter to her mother and her boyfriend.
When asked by detectives if she could provide more details
about where she was being held, Abigail quote remembered seeing
(20:28):
a framed copy of the Declaration of Independence hanging on
the wall a leopard print blanket on the bed. At
the end of the interview, detectives presented a photo lineup
of eight men that included a photo of Kimby. The
affidavit says she immediately picked out Nathaniel Kimby without hesitation,
and that she broke down emotionally and said she was
(20:52):
percent sure the man in the photo was the man
who took her. You're hearing our friends at w m
U are detailing what happened after Abby came home and
how she revealed to the police who kidnapped her. Okay,
you know what, I'm just gonna put it out there.
(21:12):
I love the Declaration of Independence, and yes it's me
that carries around a pocket copy of the Constitution. But
you know what, this freak had the Declaration of Independence
framed on his wall. That tells me a lot about him.
But hey, I'm just a j D. You're the psychoanalyst
Dr Bethany Marshall out of l a way in Well.
(21:35):
I thought that was pretty ironic to the Declaration of
Independence on his wall while he's putting a choke caller
on a fourteen year old or a shock caller and
asking her to call him master. There have to be
other people in his life that he had ultimate power over,
whether it was a girlfriend, um, a prostitute that he
picked up the quite a minute right there, right there.
(21:58):
You know he's been with hook I mean, please, I'm
telling you, Cheryl McCollum. Dr Bethany's right, he has been
uh exerting the same genre of hateful conduct toward hookers.
I guarantee you, Cheryl, there's no doubt about it. And
I'm telling you some of these women, unfortunately, are not
(22:21):
going to come forward. They're not going to call the police.
But everyone they might be. Dad, Cheryl, have you thought
of that? Absolutely? I will get into that. But again
with this guy, I am telling you those were his
test humans. Those were his test subjects. He has lived
out part of this fantasy repeatedly on women that he paid.
(22:43):
Now you see him living it out for real. That's
all this is in his Fifty Shades of Perversion. You
know to Dr William are only medical examiner and author.
Listen to this. He had the Declaration of Independence on
his wall framed. Nothing wrong with that, turns out he
was a gun nut that believed there would absolutely be
(23:05):
a zombie apocalypse. Help me, Dr Maroney, here's the problem
with a lot of the people that buy into that genre.
I don't know how you're gonna finish that sentence with
just one problem. Here's the problem. There's so many problems,
Dr Maroney, with this gun zombie A copyn live in
this real world, can't follow laws. People feel bored and
(23:29):
they look for some television, big style movie lifestyle saving
the world fighting zombie. He's delusionals. As a medical person,
when you see somebody like this, you look for activities
a daily living. Can they function, Do they have a job,
do they have friends? Do they pay taxes? And at
(23:49):
every level he's probably deficient. The only thing we haven't
talked about is is he suffering from rabid substance abuse?
Is this guy lost in illicit drawing? Are you making
excuses for him? I thought you were on my side, Maroney,
because there's tens of thousands of people out there like
(24:11):
him that just start locking teenage girls up in boxes.
All sorts of people believe this not my neighborhood. But
what you're telling me is you think he's got some
mental defect. Really you think so. So, if he's got
a mental defect, Maroney, how did he manage to keep
it a secret for nine months? He kept keeps this
girl in a storage container on some secluded property. Nobody
(24:37):
could find her. He's right there under their noses. He
outsmarted everybody crazy like a fox. This guy isn't crazy, Maroney.
It's antisocial personality disorder. He keeps away from other people.
It's we're gonna have a hard time finding people that
really know him. And in the end, it's isolation instead
(24:59):
of cohabitation. If he'd integrated healthy in junior high, in society,
in an occupation where he could be normal, pay taxes,
have a job, none of this stuff develops. It's when
you pull yourself in and you live with a computer
screen and you're only on the internet, and you really
(25:19):
believe in the stupid zombie garbage. Then you reach out
and locked people up in containers because of strange relationships.
These are all abnormal relationships at different levels. He may
need lifelong, instant institutionalization and therefore never get parole because
his brain is so scrambled. It's like a frittata on
(25:42):
the south side of Manhattan real thought about it like that.
Troy Slayton, Uh, this is where you come in. I say,
the guys totally sane. He's just evil. And Troy Slayton,
I know you're too sophisticated and educated to believe that
there is evil like the devil in this world. But
I am telling you, Troy Slaton, there is, and this
(26:04):
guy Kibby is the devil. Evil Troy, Is that a
defense in the codebook? It's certainly not. But there are
there are plenty people that are evil that don't go
and do things like this, like Dr Moroney described antisocial behavior.
So as a defense attorney, I am looking, like I said,
(26:27):
for any anything that could be mitigating, including a potential
uh mental defect that would have caused him to engage
in this activity. That might provide the opportunity for him
to receive mental health assistance while he's incarcerated, so that way,
(26:49):
maybe at some point in the future he can be
rehabilitated and restored to society. Listen, I noticed on the
door there were wires. They were like screws and then wires.
And he told me that he tripped the door so
that if for any reason it was busted open, the
(27:11):
room would catch on fire, so that you couldn't survive
if somebody found this, somebody kicked open the door, that
I would quickly go up in flames, basically, So there
was a lot of psychological intimidation and fear. Here were
you on edge all this time? Yeah, I was afraid
that the room would set on fire. And there was
(27:31):
a camera that was always blinking like a security camera,
and I thought he was watching me. That's from our
friends at. It was almost like it was a shock,
like I had a shutter and I couldn't believe what
I was saying. That was such a beautiful moment. She
remember just the look on her face. I remember seeing her.
(27:52):
She looked different, she really did. I could see stress,
those months of stress in her face, and it kind
of killed me a little bit. But I was just
so relieved to see you are hearing from our friends
at David Muir and Amy Roboc That is Abby seeing
her mother for the first time. And I'm totally covered
(28:15):
in goose bumps right now. Cheryl McCollum. Sometimes I start
crying when the twins. My eyes cheer up when the
twins come out of school. For me, to pick him up. Okay,
can you imagine one of your two beautiful children coming
up the Oh, it's too much. And Cheryl, you are
the director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Most of
your cases you deal with, the parents have never had
(28:37):
that moment where the child comes home. It never happens.
And then at a miracle, the mom sees like the
prodigal son at a distance, she sees her daughter coming
up to the front porch. Is the miracle, Nancy, And
then you know to say they have that moment, which
is just unbelievable. It is absolutely a miracle. And then
(28:59):
all of this information comes out about what happened to
that child repeatedly every day for nine months in a
cargo container, wearing a shot collar, being sex assaulted, raped
and beaten every single day. And the ways I want
to say one thing about whether or not this guy
knew right from wrong. He damn well knew it was
(29:21):
wrong because what he thought the police were coming he
had to get rid of. He absolutely had the capacity
to understand what he was doing was illegal. His action
fruit absolutely and that's just where I was head at CHERYLD.
Thank you, John Limley, and all cracked wide open because
of another girl. This is why Abby Hernandez was released
(29:45):
and probably why she's alive right now. A young girl
that had fallen in with the wrong craft and they
go party at a local hotel for the weekend, and
she decides to go onto a dating website. And she
goes on to a dating website and who should show
up to her her hotel room but Nathaniel Kimby And
then what happened? Give it to me in a nutshell, Limley, Well,
(30:07):
this is where two cases come colliding. Lauren Monday did
go on this date with Kibby. She knew absolutely nothing
about Abby, that he was holding a team captive. And
it all came down to Monday using counterfeit money that
Kimby had given her. So Kibby leaves a couple of
fifties when he leaves, and she tries to use him
(30:28):
at Walmart. The next day, she's picked up for counterfeit money.
And she's so mad at the guy that left at
her date, Jay going by the name Jay, so she
calls him and blesses him out on her cell phone.
And that's when Kimby, as Troy Slateman, have you believe
is insane? Thought? Oh, no, She's called me on my
cell phone. Cops are gonna come here, and he lets
(30:51):
Abby go. Let's Abby go. Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. You
know what, the truth is ranger than fiction, right? Oh?
Amen to that as well. Not only is the truth
stranger than fiction, but one of the reasons that this
is such an inspirational story in retrospect is you talk
about evil, you also talk about good and the what
(31:12):
this woman did, This young woman, this brave young woman
who prayed every single day and actually, according to some
of whom have looked at this in retrospect, was the
textbook victim. In terms of talking to this guy. This
is another thing that belies the notion that he was
insane or mentally deranged. In some sense, actually had the
wherewithal to bond with this guy. He knew what he
(31:33):
was doing. She became a sort of trusted confidante to
the extent that he gave her books to read, one
of which had his name in it. So you talk
about resourcefulness. Also, this also goes to the aggravating circumstances
that I would argue as a prosecutor. He knew exactly
what he was doing. The entire time he held her captive,
and that is one of the things that will be
(31:54):
considered and was considered in his sentencing. You know, Dr
William Rowney, um estaimed medical examiner and author of a
brand new book on Amazon American arcan Dr Maroney. You
know they don't like you to talk about this on TV,
but I can tell you this much, and I think
you'll agree with me. It wasn't just resourcefulness. It was
(32:14):
a miracle. This girl did pray every day that she
would be free to see her mother again, and she
was delivered. I firmly believe that, Dr Maroney. Sometimes you
have to admit what breaks down in everyday life is
we have good and evil, and we have choices. We
(32:37):
can make it take us down one path or another.
Her salvation was her faith. His reprehensible sick behavior is
the consequence of evil. Clearly, whether it's medicine, science, law, entertainment,
(33:00):
every day everything breaks down. Do we have choices between
good and evil? Now some people want to soften that
a little, between good and bad. I only think it
comes down to good and evil. I'm gonna take Dr
William Moroney's ethical philosophizing, with which I agree. I'm going
right back down the crapper with Dr Bethany Marshall. Okay,
(33:22):
here we are, Dr Bethany, as we have been so
many times before. You know, what's interesting about what you
said earlier, You know, you and I we get right
down in the mud. Okay, Dr Bethany. What you said
earlier about the sato messochistic aspect of how he could
only enjoy being with her if he were hurting her.
(33:43):
When he was with Lauren Monday, they fell asleep cuddling
and there was no sex right probably because he couldn't
he couldn't get an erection. He couldn't, he couldn't maintain
an erection and arousal unless he's inflicting cruelty on someone.
So there there's actually a very specific reason for this,
and the idea is that sociopaths have inner deadness or boredom.
(34:07):
Dr William Moroney used the word a board earlier in
the show when he was talking about you know tibbitts Our.
Ma'm sorry, um Nathaniel's preoccupation with zombies and he was
a gun nut. But so we know that they have
inner deadness boredom. They can't experience excitement in the normal ways,
whether it's sexual arousal or just the excitement of being alive.
(34:28):
They can't just look at a flower, watch a movie,
enjoy their relationships. The deadness leads them to a psychic
situation where they use cruelty, sadism, um, aggression, and seeing
fear in the eyes of the other in order to
ride the excitement of the infliction of pain in order
(34:50):
to gain that sexual arousal. And so that's why often
with sex crimes, I mean, take someone like the beat
k killer, there's often not we don't find at the
crime scene that semen honor in the body. Often there's
either no semen in the room even or the semen
is deposited somewhere completely away from the body because they're
(35:12):
so they're so busy inflicting the pain that the normal
type of sexual interaction never even occurs. It's like they
masturbate in frustration, maybe hours after the infliction of cruelty,
but they cannot have normal ejaculation while with the victims. Okay,
Down in the Mud with Dr Bethany, you know that
sounds like a great podcast. Down in the Mud with
(35:32):
Dr Bethany. Guys, I am amazed to say that there
is a happy ending. Listen. There were no cars coming
either way, and he said get out, So I got out,
and then he yelled, give me my hat back, give
me my hat back. I took the hat off, I
threw it in the car, slammed the door, and he
drove off, just like that, Just like that, that was it.
(35:58):
I remember looking up in Las laughing, just being so happy, like,
oh my god, this actually happened. I'm a free person.
I never thought it would happen to me, but I'm free.
And I just walked home, just never before seeing footage
of Abby returning home caught on the family security camera.
(36:20):
I remember when I came up to my doorstep. I
could hear my mom talking on the phone. I could
hear her voice opening the door and I said, Mom,
I remember she said Abby, and remember she ran out.
It was almost like it was a shock, like I
had a shutter and I couldn't believe what I was saying.
That was such a beautiful moment, she remembered. Just to
(36:43):
look on her face, I remember seeing her, and she
looked different, she really did. I could see stress, those
months of stress in her face, and it kind of
killed me a little bit, but I was just so
relieved to see her from our ends at ABC's twenty
well a miracle. Abbey is alive and Kimby is behind
(37:08):
bars for a very long time. All I can say
is p t L. Nancy graces Crime Story, signing off
goodbye friend.
Host
Nancy Grace
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