April 18, 2025 • 42 mins
Easter Sunday is a holy day for Christians around the world. Its celebration brings hope to the nations through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. As we approach this holy day, Nancy Grace and her expert panel explores the facts of Jesus' crucifixion, resurrection and historical evidence in its reality.
Jesus' arrival in Jerusalem for Passover and what is now called "Palm Sunday" is often called His "Triumphal Entry" as crowds line the streets, spreading their cloaks and waving palm branches. Shouts of "Hosanna" came from the crowd, recognizing Him as King, but Jesus was also seen as a political threat by religious leaders and Roman authority fearing the populace would unite behind Jesus leading to unrest.
Jesus was arrested on charges of sedition, in the late evening after the Passover meal. He appeared before the Sanhedrin immediately, accused of blasphemy and claiming to be King of the Jews. He is judged guilty, condemned to die on a cross.
Sources other than the bible mention Jesus death by crucifixion and even document events that coincided with Jesus' death on the cross. Historical accounts by Jewish historian Flavius Josephus and Roman Historian, Tacitus, both corroborate the existence of Jesus and His execution under Pontius Pilate.
Joining Nancy Grace today,
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Lee Strobel - Former Legal Editor of the Chicago Tribune, Former Atheist and New York Times best-selling author of “Seeing the Supernatural” his newest release and also “The Evidence of Christ” [both among his 40+ books], Founding Director of the Lee Strobel Center for Evangelism and Applied Apologetics at Colorado Christian University; X and Facebook @leestrobel,Instagram @lee_strobel
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Fr. Cedric Pisegna - Father Cedric Ministries, airing on TBN on Sundays at 7 a.m. ET and EWTN on Sundays at 9:30 a.m. ET, Author of 25 books, including “Rise! Living the Risen Life” and “Death: The Final Surrender”
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Michael Licona - Professor of New Testament Studies at Houston Christian University, Author of "The Resurrection of Jesus: A New Historiographical Approach" and "The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus"
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Guy Powell - Host of the podcast, “The Backstory on the Shroud of Turin; Board Member of STERA (The Shroud of Turin Education and Research Association), Board member of SEEC (The Shroud Educational Endeavous Corporation, President of ProRelevant; Author of “The Only Witness: A history of the Shroud of Turin;" YouTube: Guy.R.Powell.ShroudofTurin; Facebook: AHistoryOfTheShroudOfTurin; IG: @guy.r.powell; TikTok: @guy.r.powell
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Billy Hallowell - TV Host at CBN News (Christian Broadcasting Network), New documentary; "Investigating the Supernatural: Miracles;" Host of 2 podcasts: “Jesus and the Prophecies of Christmas” and “Quickstart;" Author of “Playing with Fire: A Modern Investigation into Demons, Exorcism, and Ghosts,” and “The Armageddon Code: One Journalist’s Quest for End-Times Answers” and more; @BillyHallowell on all social platforms
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace The Case for the Resurrection
Bob Shell John three point sixteen True story. I'm Nancy Grace,
this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
Why is it that we want proof? After I graduated
(00:24):
from law school and began prosecuting felony cases, my world
boiled down to black and white. Everything in my world
simply put, is it probative? What does it prove? If
I can't prove it, then it's not real. You think
I would put a psychic in front of a jury
(00:44):
even if I believed what he or she said, No,
I would not. Nobody believes that. It would ruin the
state's case, just like putting up a witness that is
going to be destroyed on cross examination. Is it worth it?
Or do you? You lose all credibility in this business
the media. There is one stink bomb. If you mentioned this,
(01:10):
you lose all credibility, and that is christ or Resurrection
joining me an all star panel to discuss the Case
for the Resurrection. Straight out to a guy I feel.
(01:32):
I know because I have listened to him read his books.
His most recent book is The Supernatural. I'm seeing the Supernatural,
But what really reached me was Lee Strobel's book The
Case for Christ Today The Resurrection John three point sixteen.
(01:57):
According to many of us, it's a true story straight
out to Lee Strobel joining us now catch this. Former
legal editor of the Chicago Tribune, also covered the courthouse, beat,
crime and justice for everything boiled down to can you
prove it beyond a reasonable doubt? Former atheist, which we'll
(02:19):
get into. New York Times best selling author of Seeing
the Supernatural that's his newest, The Evidence of Christ forty
plus books. Sorry, Strobl, I don't have time to go
through all that. My favorite so far The Case for
Christ Now, Lee, thank you for being with us. Also
with us an all star panel that I'm getting to.
(02:40):
But first to Lee Strobel, it's our super Bowl. It's Easter,
I argue, the single most important time in the Christian year.
We hear a lot more about Christmas. I get it,
But super Ball Easter, no question. Without Easter, nobody would
(03:04):
care about Christmas. Explain to me how you turned from
a died in the wool atheist to a believer.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Well, thanks, Nanswy. I was an in my backgrounds and
journalism and law, so just like you, I loved your introduction,
because man, I feel the same way. I need evidence,
I need I need data, I need historical, trustworthy material
before I make a decision. And I just saw your
concept of all loving, all knowing God was absurd. It
(03:37):
wasn't worth my time to even check out. And I
married a woman who was an a stick. He ended
up becoming a Christian, and I thought, how do I
wrest Let me say struggle.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Let me say struggle. And by the way, who's ever
running that chain of photos or depictions of Christ? Apparently
that's not at all what he looked like. He wasn't
white as a lily with blue eyes. Most likely just guessing.
But that said, let me say stroble, at least trouble.
Why was the idea? I mean, you believe in the
(04:10):
Hubble Telescope, don't you? Right? Well, of course, okay, you're
not one of those people that we think it's all
a scam, that we really didn't land on the moon.
You're not that personal. Then why can't you people you
said you didn't believe or couldn't consider an all knowing
(04:32):
or all loving God. So if you believe in the
Hubble telescope, and you believe that we can look into
galaxies millions of light years away. What's so hard to believe?
I don't understand well.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
As you'll find out as you interview as they have
a lot of reasons for not believing, and tend to,
as the Book of Romans said, to suppress the evidence.
And so you find ways to explain all of the evidence,
just as a Book of Romans says that we tend
to suppress the evidence because we want to be God.
We want to make our own decisions. We don't want
to be given commandments to live by.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
You know, you mentioned Romans, and they'll have to ask
you and Father Puzanna about the problem with the Old Testament.
Talk about an angry father. I mean, that's bad, that's
really bad. In the Old Testament. It's very hard for
many people to reconcile the God in the Old Testament
(05:29):
with the God in the New Testament. I have my
own ways to reconcile it. But you mentioned Romans, and
of course Romans was written by Paul aka alias Saul
the Christian Killer, who, like you, became a believer. That
happens to have my favorite Bible verse of all times
(05:53):
in Romans. That's why I have a particular love for Romans.
But that said, so you're dying the atheists, you're coming
covering the crime be nothing but murder, ray Cholmleas Station
Mayhem all day long, and you like it. So how
did you end up becoming a Christian? Much less a
(06:13):
Christian author? Best selling author, New York Times bestselling author.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
My wife was agnostic. She met a neighbor who was
a Christian, shared Jesus with her, went to church with her,
and then she came and gave me the worst news
an atheists husband could get. She said, I decided to
become a Christian, and I thought divorce would be the answer.
But then I thought maybe I could rescue her from
this cult that she got involved in. So I decided
to take my legal training and my journalism training and
(06:39):
systematically investigate is there any credibility to the resurrection of
Jesus Christ? Because I figured, even as an atheist, that
is the foundation, that is the lynchpin of the Christian faith,
because Jesus clearly may transcendent and missying in divine claims
about himself. But so what I could do that? You
could do that, anybody could do that. But if Jesus
claimed to be God, died and then three days later
(07:01):
return from the dead. That's pretty good evidence he's telling
the truth. And so I spent two years of my
life using my journalism and legal trainee to investigate the
data of history to try to come to an informed
verdict on whether or not Jesus backed up his claim
to being the son of God by returning from the
dead in the third Day. And I became convinced, based
(07:22):
on history, on documents, based on I witness accounts, and
so forth, that Jesus is who he claim to be.
And that's when I abandoned my atheism and received Jesus
as my forgiver and a leader joining me.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
In addition to best selling author Lee Struggle, Father Cedric Pisana,
Father Cedric ministries airs on tb N on Sundays and
at seven am on EWTN Sundays at nine thirty am.
He's the author of Rise, Living, The Risen Life, and
(07:59):
Death I Surrender. There are twenty five books to go through. Father.
Thank you for being with us. You know, Les Trouble
just said so many interesting things, But one thing he
said was that Christ declared himself the son of God.
Now you know what I noticed, And of course I'm
just a la person compared to all of you Christian intellectuals,
(08:22):
but I noticed that very often when Christ would perform
a miracle, which was documented in many written sources at
the time by non Christians, they would often refer to
Christ as basically an insurrectionist that could perform magic, healing
people through magic. They didn't know what to make of it.
(08:45):
But Father, I noticed from my point of view in
the Gospels, whenever he would perform a miracle, he would say,
don't tell anybody. And when he would be asked who
are you, even by Pacha's pilot, he would not come
out and say I am the son of God. It
(09:06):
was there at the very end, when the disciples still
weren't getting it, that he did claim to be the
son of God. But I found him to be I
find him to be very humble. I mean, in everything
he did, it's a lesson on how we are to live.
(09:29):
I don't find him touting his own horn that often.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Yeah, he wasn't that way. He taught with parables and
he taught with a lot of wisdom. But he's the
only person I have ever heard of, both written and
spoken that ever said I am the resurrection in the life.
These are unprecedented claims. And we're talking about the proof
of the resurrection, Nancy, and I thank you for having
(09:52):
me on. I'm a Catholic priest and for two thousand
years the Church has been present proclaiming this that there
not only is there a resurrection of Jesus, but we
are all going to be resurrected in the last stay
and stand before God. And when you talk about proof
of the resurrection, let me say this. I liken it
to a boat. If there's a boat going through a harbor,
(10:15):
it creates a wake in the same way the resurrection
has created a wake. For example, the Bible, the New
Testament has come forth because of that that the apostles
have died for this, They've been martyred.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
People don't die, Father, bizigna father when you know many
people And I can't wait to hear the rest of
the pane'll talk about this. Like myself sometimes wonder is
this real? But wondering is not a sin. It's not
(10:51):
the end of you as a Christian. And I would
like to refer to Thomas the Doubter when he said
I don't believe the resurrection has bs. Excuse me, Father
Christ did not hate him, he didn't reject him. He
wooed Thomas and showed him his scars. He felt where
(11:15):
the sword had gone in Christ's side, and Thomas no
longer doubted something. You just said that the disciples were
willing to die, to die horrible deaths. When Peter the
Rock was murdered, he refused to be crucified. He said
(11:37):
that was the way Christ was killed. I'm not worthy
of that and was crucified upside down these people. When
I feel weak, I think of them and all the
early Christians that were murdered for their beliefs. They would
rather die than recan't Christ? And that is very persuasive
(11:58):
to me speaking about Yeah, let me share.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
This very quickly because you have other panelists here. But
I had a young man come up to me. He
was a teenager, and he said, Father Ceda could sizter.
How do we know that Jesus was risen? And that's
the question before us right now. And what I told
him was, I know he's risen because he lives in me.
He's changed my life. I have actually had two near
(12:22):
death experiences where I encountered the risen Christ, and this
so revolutionized my life that I became a Catholic priest
with a vow of poverty, chastity and obedience. And Jesus said,
by your fruit you will know them. So the bottom
line is that he pours out his Holy Spirit upon people,
and that's the proof of the resurrection, that you can
encounter Christ and that your doubts can be turned into faith.
(12:46):
But more than anything, Jesus wants faith from us.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Crime stores with nancy grace.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
Jesus triumphal entry into Jerusalem was a threat to the
religious leaders of the day, as their power was derived
from rules and traditions. Jesus was also seen as a
political threat by religious leaders as well as Roman authority,
fearing the populace would unite behind Jesus, leading to unrest.
Some of Jesus' early supporters expect him to be a
political or military leader and are disappointed to find out otherwise.
(13:24):
In the crowds, we're instigators, sowing seeds of false information
about Jesus and our right lies, causing the people to
question him, leading to his arrest gang mentality.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Okay, one thing I don't understand as how a single
guy from all places, Bethlehem, Nazareth was a political threat.
He owned one pair of sandals that somebody probably gave
him a robe, and that was it. How did one
(13:58):
guy post such an incredible threat to the hierarchy, not
just the local religious leaders, but beyond to the Roman Empire?
Joining me an all star panel as we head into
our super Bowl Easter to Lee's strobel joining us. How
(14:19):
many times have I wanted to speak to you along
with an all star panel? Each a bright light in
this world. Lee is the author of a brand new book,
Seeing the Supernatural, but also The Case for Christ, which
I have listened to many times Lee on tape. So Lee,
(14:44):
can we talk about proof? Yes, and everything that father
Father Pizana has said, Michael Lacona has said is true.
But I can't go to a Jerry and say, Okay,
this guy said ed he saw a vision of a
man that died two thousand years ago, and that's my proof.
(15:09):
Do I believe it? Yes? I believe it happened. Can
I offer it as proof? Probably not. Now give me
some proof, Lee, Sure, the things I heard you talk
about in your book. Can we just start with eyewitnesses?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Sure? Most of the facts that we accept as being
true about the ancient world when you dig down into them,
are based on one source or two sources of information.
We have no fewer than nine ancient early sources confirming
and corroborating their conviction that they encountered the risen Christ. First,
we have a report of the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
(15:46):
including named eye witnesses and groups of eyewitnesses, far too
quick to be a legend that developed over the centuries
that came later. A second, we have Paul's testimony. He
had been Saul of Tarsus, he had an encounter with
the risen Christ. Then he became the apostle Paul. But
then he got to know some of the apostles, including Peter, James,
and John. And Paul says himself, he says, regarding the resurrection,
(16:09):
whether it is I or they, this is what we preach.
In other words, I was an eyewitness, and their eyewitnesses too. Third,
we have Peter himself in the Book of Acts, which
even skeptical scholars will accept as a book about the
spread of early Christianity. And Peter gets up before a
group and he says, God has raised this Jesus to life,
to which we're all witnesses, and three thousand people that
(16:31):
day said Peter, we know you're telling the truth, and
the Church was born. The next four sources are the
Gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. There are nine appearances
of the risen Jesus in those gospels, and we have
every reason to believe that those gospels are reliable. They
are early enough, they are rooted into the right streams,
They go back to Jesus and the original people. There's proximity,
(16:53):
there's verification of distinct points with archaeology and other documents.
So there's the inner logic, of course, continuity.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Whoa whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa. See you're so smart.
You and everybody else on this panel other than me
are just you know, rieling it off. Got me drinking
for the fire hydrants. Stroebe. You can't take all that in.
But you said eye witnesses, and you were referring to
the disciples multiple accounts. I'm going to circle back to that,
(17:25):
But what about what about outside the Bible? I want
to get to that, the writings outside the Bible, but
the hundreds of people that reportedly saw him during the
forty days he walked the earth post crucifixion.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
What about them, Yeah, they're mentioned in that creed that
I mentioned, that early report of the resurrection. It says
it mentioned the specific names of eyewitnesses to whom he appeared,
including Peter, including James, the half brother of Jesus, who
who was not a follower of Jesus during Jesus' lifetime,
he was radically converted and became a ultimately martyred for
his faith as a leader of the Church of Jerusalem
(18:06):
because he encountered the risen Jesus. And it talks about
groups of people, including five hundred people at once, who
encountered the resurrected Jesus and Peter, and Paul said to
the church in court, he said, I'm paraphrase. He basically said, look,
you don't believe me. A lot of these five hundred
witnesses are still around. Go talk to them. They'll tell
you the truth. And then we have people who actually
(18:29):
sat under the teachings of the eyewitnesses themselves, and they
tell us what the eyewitnesses said. So, for instance, we
have Clement, who we believe was ordained by Peter himself,
and Clement wrote a letter right there in the first
century in which you said the disciples had quote complete
certainty caused by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(18:51):
And then we have Polycart, who we believe was appointed
the bishop of the Church of Smyrna by John himself,
and he wrote a letter to the Philippian chore and
he said, you mentioned the resurrection no fewer than five times,
and he said, I'll quote him. He said about Paul
and the other apostles, he said, for they did not
love the present age, but him who died for their
(19:12):
benefit and for our sake, was raised by God. So
we have nine ancient sources going back extremely early, confirming
and corroborating that the disciples were convinced that Jesus was
resurrected and appeared to them.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
And I'd like to point out not just the disciples.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yes, that's rights.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yes, members of the then current religious regime were converted,
and they were very anti Christ or converted Romans who
had their lives to lose if they converted, did convert
because they saw him, they would rather go so live
(20:00):
in caves. What if somebody said, okay, you need to
pack up all your stuff and go live in a
cave with your children. They did that rather than recan't
their beliefs joining me now in addition to Lee's Strobull,
author of The Case for christ Father, Cedric Pizania, Michael Lacona,
(20:23):
Billy Hallowell is joining US. Host at CBN Christian Broadcasting Network,
has a new documentary out investigating the supernatural Miracles, has
two podcasts, multiple books at Billyhollowell dot com. Billy. One
thing that is very convincing to me is that many
(20:44):
people like strobel did not believe. They didn't believe. In fact,
they had a great interest personal interest in not believing.
They would lose their job, they would lose their home,
they could be put to death if they chose to believe.
Yet after seeing Christ following the Resurrection, walking the earth
(21:10):
for forty days, they chose to give it all up
and become believers. Not just the disciples, not just them
his close followers, but people that didn't even know him before.
I find that very probative.
Speaker 5 (21:25):
Well, it is, and you think about the fact that
you were saying, before you know some people, you know,
why was Jesus such a threat to so many people?
And he's performing miracles, and he's walking around and he's
doing these things that are shocking people and making them
wonder who is he really? And I would say I
think this is important to talk about. We're talking about
the history in the past. We're talking about what the
Bible says and whether it's true, whether he resurrected. Let's
(21:48):
look at the world today. You asked that question about
people living in caves around the world. Today, Christian persecution
is the worst that it has ever been in history.
There are millions of people who are very much worse
off and living in caves. They're being slaughtered and murdered
and killed because they will not recant the faith. So
that same proof that we're talking about actually back then
(22:08):
with Paul and so many others. We're watching people live
that out actively in those changed lives right now as
we speak, in countries around the world. And I'll tell
you the thing, Nick.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Queer, I want to hear about current Christian persecution.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
Absolutely, the World Watch List every year they rank the
worst countries. North Korea is typically number one, Nigeria right now,
and I would encourage people to look this up. We
cover this at CBN frequently. What is happening in Nigeria
is horrific. The slaughter, the murder, the killing, the systematic,
I mean pastors and leaders and normal Christians, people who
(22:44):
will not recant their faith. Not only are these second
class citizens in many of these countries, but they are
put in labor camps and they are slaughtered. And this
is very actively happening around the world. Here in America,
we don't think about these things because generally speaking, we
have very good First Amendment religion, liberty. Other countries this
does not exist. And so but my point is that
proof that we're talking about, we see it being lived
(23:06):
out actively right now in our world today, and that's
easy to look past it.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
I think it's important to discuss again. We are heading
into the most sacred time of the year for Christians
around the world, and that is Easter. It's painful to
hear from me. It's painful to hear the way Christ
was treated.
Speaker 6 (23:28):
Jesus was arrested on charges of sedition because the Romans
saw him as a serious threat to their authority. Jewish
leaders felt the same way, Jesus's teachings were a threat
to their authority. The combination of leadership from the political
and religious parts of society, coupled with the groundswell of
false information, turned the crowds against Jesus. It took only
one week from the city of Jerusalem to go from
(23:50):
praise him to crucify him.
Speaker 7 (23:53):
Jesus was arrested late on Thursday night after the Passover meal.
He appeared before the Sanhedrin immediately, as the Jewish leaders
wanted him try as quickly as possible. He is accused
of blasphemy and claiming to be King of the Jews.
He is judged guilty, condemned to die, and turned over
to Ponche's pilot.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
To Elis Strobel, joining us former legal editor at the
Chicago Tribune. And I say that to tell you that
he is a hard boiled investigative reporter, former atheist who
is now a devout Christian. And of course, when I
say devout Christian, I don't really see many people think
(24:35):
that that means perfect. We are anything but perfect. And
that is to me the beauty of Christianity, because if
Christ could take the disciples who were quite the lot, okay,
and turn them in to heroes, maybe maybe there's a
(24:57):
chance for the rest of us. And I'm throwing Paul
and that pot to stew. He actually tortured and killed
Christians and became a great, great supporter of Christ and
is the author of Romans in the Bible, the Book
of Romans. Speaking of probative evidence again, Lee, I've described
(25:20):
how I now see the world after law school. I
went to law school following the murder of my fiance.
I went from that emotional mess to becoming a felony prosecutor.
And the only way I could do it was to
shut out any and all emotion and look at the facts.
(25:47):
No my case and their case better than they did,
so I could be prepared to destroy it. So I'm
asking you about hard evidence. We've talked about eyewitness accounts
that saw Christ following, walking and talking, eating food after
(26:10):
the resurrection after being crucified, and there was no doubt
he was killed because when his body first turned up
missing out of the tomb, Pilot sent his hitch people
to look in all of the graves, mass graves, burial
grounds to try to find his body to parade it
(26:31):
and show, look, he's really dead, but it couldn't be found. Now,
what I want to talk to you about is contemporaneous
writings at the time about Christ and contemporaneous means a
lot to me because we are very willing to accept.
For instance, the story of the Trojan War in Iliad
(26:52):
and Odyssey written by Homer, and that was written hundreds
of years after the Trojan War. I believe it was
written in the same with the right century. But yeah,
we're like, yeah, okay, I get it. Trojan War, it happened.
Why is it such heresy to say John three sixteen
true story. I don't get the difference. I want to
(27:13):
talk about writings at the time by non Christians that
talk about Christ.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Well, we have all kinds of evidence from the first century.
You know, Jesus really proved his divinity by returning from
the dead. Before he died, he got up before a
group and he said, I and the Father are one.
And the Greek word for one there is not masculinus neuter,
which means Jesus was not saying I and the Father
are the same person. He was saying, I and the
(27:39):
Father are the same thing or one in nature. We're
one in essence. And the audience understood that we were saying,
because they picked up stones to kill him. He said,
you you're just a man and you're claiming to be God.
So Jesus claimed to be gone, but so what anybody
can do that? But it was his resurrection that proved
that he is indeed who he claimed to be, the
unique son of God. And so you would expect that
(28:01):
there would be writings in the first century shortly thereafter
that would establish the truth of the resurrection. And we
do have this report with named eye witnesses and groups
of eyewitnesses that has been dated back to within months
of his death. I mean, I don't know if people
realize how significant that is historically when you consider the
first two biographies of Alexander the Great were written by
(28:21):
Arian and Plutarch four hundred years after his life, and
they're generally considerable. And yet here we have a report
going back within months of his death, after he affirmed
who he is by attorney from the dead. Not only that,
but we've had, as I mentioned, the nine ancient sources
confirming the conviction of the Disciples that they did encounter
him resurrected. The Disciples were in a different position of
(28:44):
all human beings who've ever lived on the planet. They
were there, they touched the resurrected Jesus. They talked to them,
they ate with them. They knew for a fact. They
didn't just believe it. They knew for a fact is
this true or is it a lie? And knowing it
was true, they were willing to live lives of deprivation
and suffering. They were willing to die for their proclamation
(29:05):
that Jesus had risen. Nobody knowingly and willingly dies for
a lie.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Joining me is another special guest. In addition to Strobel,
Father Pausania, Michael Lacona, and Billy Hollowell. Longtime friend and
colleague now author Guy Powell, host of podcasts The Backstory
on the Shroud of Turan, which is amazing. It's incredible
(29:35):
your podcast, but also author of a brand new book,
one of many, The Only Witness A History of the
Shroud of Turin, I believe. Could you show me your copy.
I'm sure you've got one handy, Guy Powell new book,
The Only Witness A History of the Shroud of Turin.
(29:56):
I want to follow up Guy on something that Strobel
Lee Strobe just said. He is referring to eyewitnesses. He's
referring to people that came in contact with the disciples
and described what they said and how they were willing
to die for what they witnessed. I want to talk
to you, and this ties in with your assertion that
(30:20):
the shroud of Turin is real, that it was used
to wrap the body of Christ, and he emerged from
the tomb and the shroud survived with his imprint on it.
I want to refer you to Cornelius Tacitus. He lived
(30:40):
fifty six to one twenty AD. Secular, secular, non religious.
And this is what I look for when I try
a case. Say I put up an eyewitness. I know
he's going to be he she's going to be attacked
on cross examination, hopefully not destroyed. But I look for
corroborating facts. How can I corroborate? Can I corroborate what
(31:03):
this witness has said with impartial evidence? Okay, then I
can tell a Jerry. This is why you should believe
Guy Powell, because one, two, three, and four it's irrefutable.
I don't care what they say, so Guy. Back to
Cornelie's Tacitus. He confirmed several historical elements that have been
(31:24):
found in secular, non religious texts, for instance, that Christ
did live in Judea, was crucified under pontchous pilots, his
followers were persecuted and murdered, and much more so. So
much of the story is corroborated by secular, non religious translation.
(31:49):
They don't have a dog in the fight, no skin
of the game, they don't care corroborates the story of Christ.
Speaker 8 (31:55):
Yeah, that is such an important piece of the evidence
and the proof of the resurrection, you know, that singular
thing that really defines Christianity. And you know, and even
when you look at those other writers and how they
also reflect what's been written in the Gospels as well.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
You know.
Speaker 8 (32:15):
So you have, you know, the appearances and those are
written in the Gospels. You have then the crucifixion that's
described in the gospels. You have the the the wounds
that he suffered, and and and other evidence that's of
course now found on the shrouds. So you have the
written evidence that you've been talking about so far. But
now we have actually what I believe to be physical
(32:38):
evidence that reflects what's in the in the four Gospels,
with the wounds to the hands, with the wounds to
the feet, with the wounds to the side, with the
crown of thorns, with the beating and the and the
wounds from all of those whippings that he suffered, and
the shroud of Turin reflects all of that. And so
(33:01):
I think that you know that right there, in addition
to all of these writings from the contemporary authors contemporaneous authors,
also reflects that another dimension of proof that supports these
other writers.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
He was nailed to a cross and hung between two
convicted thieves. A sign attached to the top of the
cross said Jesus of Nazareth, king of the Jews. Crucifixion
is not a fast death, and the Gospel of Mark
says Jesus was crucified at the third hour or nine am.
While on the cross, Jesus was taunted and harassed. Around noon,
darkness covered the earth and lasted for hours. In the
(33:37):
ninth hour, around three pm, Jesus died on the cross.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Crime stores with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
In the Bible. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke
describe a darkness covering the land from noon to three
peace during jesus crucifixion. Dallas was a historian and secular
writer around fifty a d who is probably the earliest
secular writer to mention Jesus, but his works don't exist
anymore except where quoted by Julius Africanus in two twenty
one AD. Dallas previously tried to explain the way the
(34:17):
darkness occurring at jesus crucifixion. He said, quote on the
whole world there pressed the most fearful darkness, and the
rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in
Judea and other districts were thrown down this darkness. Thallas,
in the third book of his history calls as appears
to me without reason an eclipse of the sun.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
The darkness and the temple being ripped in half has
now been corroborated. Well, it was already corroborated in ancient
writings by Tallis in the third book of his history,
straight out to Lie's struggle. I find it very interesting
that in your case for Christ, you report many, many
Roman accounts of corroboration of the story of Christ and
(35:02):
the resurrection, but you also refer to Jewish accounts. Christ
was a Jew, and you refer to the Talmud and
important Jewish work where he was referred to as a
false messiah who quote practiced magic and would heal people
(35:23):
through some magical means. I find that very corroborative.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Well, very much so. And also the Talmud also reports
that Jesus was executed and thus killed. You know, a
lot of skeptics like I had been, said, well, maybe
Jesus didn't die on the cross, Maybe he survived the crucifixion,
maybe he fainted, maybe the cool, damp air of the
tomb resuscitated him. And so that's where this idea of
(35:48):
the resurrection came from. But we have five ancient sources
outside the Bible that report the execution of Jesus, including Josephus,
a first century Jewish historian, Tacitus of Oarsarapian, Lucian, and
the Jewish Talman. In fact, get this, even the Journal
of the American Medical Association, a secular, scientific, peer reviewed
(36:11):
medical journal, carried an investigation into the death of Jesus,
and their conclusion was quote Clearly, the weight of the
historical and medical evidence indicates that Jesus was dead even
before the wound to his side was inflicted. So this
idea that somehow Jesus survived the crucifixion is disproven by
(36:31):
reports inside the New Testament, outside the New Testament, and
even the Journal of the American Medical Association, to the
point where one of the most famous atheist New Testament scholar,
Garret Ludeman, said, it is indisputable historically that Jesus died
an he was crucified.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
The dying part I get Father sedik Pazania is the resurrection.
I believe that it bears great scrutiny. I have been
convinced for many, many reasons. But Father, really the cold,
damn air in the tomb revived him. He was almost
(37:10):
severed and half with a sword through his side, one
side to the next. He was dead, Father. And also
can I get you to address Father? Which I find
very significant the fact that women, who are so mistreated
around the world, so looked down upon, so not able
to speak, women Mary and Mary Magdalene were the first
(37:36):
to find him. They were the ones to find that
he was no longer in the tomb. I find that
very significant.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
I do too, because you would think that the gospel
writers would want to downplay that, but they told the
truth as it was that a woman, a second class
cisten in that society, was the first to witness the resurrection,
and if they were trying to create a lie scenario.
They wouldn't have said that at all. But let me
say this also. You quoted Thomas the doubter, and Jesus
(38:08):
said to him, you believe because you've seen a Blessed
to those who believe without seeing. Whether it be the
shroud or the evidence we're presenting. In a trial, jury
goes to talk talk things over. Then they have to
make a decision. And I think that's what God wants
from us. He wants faith, wants us to make a decision.
(38:29):
He could have given us more evidence, but I think
it's exactly the way God wanted it, and now it's
our choice. Blessed to those who believe without seeing, and
as you believe, you will see. That's the Gospel of John.
Seeing doesn't come just by seeing, it comes through faith.
And that's what I think this whole program is about.
(38:52):
We're hoping to inspire people's faith that there not only
is a resurrection, but it can change your life. So
Blessed to those who believe without seeing.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
To Billie Hallowell joining us from CBN, gimme your best
case for the resurrection.
Speaker 5 (39:09):
Yeah, I think the biggest question of where the body
is we've gone through so many facts today. I mean,
I look at Paul in his life. I mean, these
are radical transformations. You have the five hundred. I think
it's important to go back to that. And if you
look at where these five hundred people who apparently all
saw Jesus at the same time after his death and resurrection,
it's written in First Corinthians. That book was written in
(39:31):
a D fifty five and as Lee was saying, this
was at a time when most of the people were
still alive. I mean, you think about you have to
put all the pieces together into a puzzle, and when
you do that, it becomes remarkable that somebody Paul would
be willing to write that. But I think the biggest evidence,
obviously everything we've talked about extending into today, and most
(39:53):
of my job is spent talking to people whose lives
have changed. They've gone from prison to finding Jesus. They've
gone from her horrific careers in drugs and other places.
I won't even mention into becoming pastors. What is it
that changes a person. It's the very same thing through
the resurrection that we see in the Bible, and we're
seeing that still in people's lives.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Today. Well, put Billy Guy Powell. Having prosecuted crimes for
so long, horrible felonies, people torturing each other, literally, torturing babies, murdering,
just drugs, I'm convinced that just as there is a
Holy Father, that there is a devil. I don't know
(40:35):
the ins and outs, I don't know the details, but
from what I've seen, it's very real in our world. Guy,
best case for the resurrection hit me?
Speaker 8 (40:46):
Yeah, I mean, I agree with everybody else, but I
think the best case is the Shroud of Turin. It
is a physical proof that has actual proof and elements
in it that reflect the resurrection and reflect the I'm sorry,
reflect the gospels. All four of the Gospels talk about
(41:08):
the inhumane, the devilish things that the Romans did to
this man. And each one of those things, the crown
of thorns as you're showing the you know, the whip marks,
that the nailing through the hands and the feet, and
then the side wound to make sure that he was dead.
(41:28):
All of those are reflected on the shroud. And that
shroud then has been around for two thousand years. It
has proof, many many different proofs that indicate that it
is two thousand years old, and that it has, you know,
survived all of these earthquakes and fires and things like that,
and it would never have survived if it wasn't the
(41:50):
proof to me, if it wasn't the proof that Jesus
Christ lived on the earth, he walked with us, and
then he died and was resurrected.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Guy Powell, author of The Only Witness, A History of
the Shroud of Turin. If you still doubt, which I'm
sure many people do, conduct your own investigation as Les
Trouble did, as Father Pausania did, Michael Lacone, Guy Powell,
Billy Hallowell. Find out the truth for yourself beyond a
(42:23):
reasonable doubt. John three point sixteen True story Nancy Grace
signing off goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace The Case for the Resurrection
Bob Shell John three point sixteen True story. I'm Nancy Grace,
this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
Why is it that we want proof? After I graduated
(00:24):
from law school and began prosecuting felony cases, my world
boiled down to black and white. Everything in my world
simply put, is it probative? What does it prove? If
I can't prove it, then it's not real. You think
I would put a psychic in front of a jury
(00:44):
even if I believed what he or she said, No,
I would not. Nobody believes that. It would ruin the
state's case, just like putting up a witness that is
going to be destroyed on cross examination. Is it worth it?
Or do you? You lose all credibility in this business
the media. There is one stink bomb. If you mentioned this,
(01:10):
you lose all credibility, and that is christ or Resurrection
joining me an all star panel to discuss the Case
for the Resurrection. Straight out to a guy I feel.
(01:32):
I know because I have listened to him read his books.
His most recent book is The Supernatural. I'm seeing the Supernatural,
But what really reached me was Lee Strobel's book The
Case for Christ Today The Resurrection John three point sixteen.
(01:57):
According to many of us, it's a true story straight
out to Lee Strobel joining us now catch this. Former
legal editor of the Chicago Tribune, also covered the courthouse, beat,
crime and justice for everything boiled down to can you
prove it beyond a reasonable doubt? Former atheist, which we'll
(02:19):
get into. New York Times best selling author of Seeing
the Supernatural that's his newest, The Evidence of Christ forty
plus books. Sorry, Strobl, I don't have time to go
through all that. My favorite so far The Case for
Christ Now, Lee, thank you for being with us. Also
with us an all star panel that I'm getting to.
(02:40):
But first to Lee Strobel, it's our super Bowl. It's Easter,
I argue, the single most important time in the Christian year.
We hear a lot more about Christmas. I get it,
But super Ball Easter, no question. Without Easter, nobody would
(03:04):
care about Christmas. Explain to me how you turned from
a died in the wool atheist to a believer.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Well, thanks, Nanswy. I was an in my backgrounds and
journalism and law, so just like you, I loved your introduction,
because man, I feel the same way. I need evidence,
I need I need data, I need historical, trustworthy material
before I make a decision. And I just saw your
concept of all loving, all knowing God was absurd. It
(03:37):
wasn't worth my time to even check out. And I
married a woman who was an a stick. He ended
up becoming a Christian, and I thought, how do I
wrest Let me say struggle.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Let me say struggle. And by the way, who's ever
running that chain of photos or depictions of Christ? Apparently
that's not at all what he looked like. He wasn't
white as a lily with blue eyes. Most likely just guessing.
But that said, let me say stroble, at least trouble.
Why was the idea? I mean, you believe in the
(04:10):
Hubble Telescope, don't you? Right? Well, of course, okay, you're
not one of those people that we think it's all
a scam, that we really didn't land on the moon.
You're not that personal. Then why can't you people you
said you didn't believe or couldn't consider an all knowing
(04:32):
or all loving God. So if you believe in the
Hubble telescope, and you believe that we can look into
galaxies millions of light years away. What's so hard to believe?
I don't understand well.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
As you'll find out as you interview as they have
a lot of reasons for not believing, and tend to,
as the Book of Romans said, to suppress the evidence.
And so you find ways to explain all of the evidence,
just as a Book of Romans says that we tend
to suppress the evidence because we want to be God.
We want to make our own decisions. We don't want
to be given commandments to live by.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
You know, you mentioned Romans, and they'll have to ask
you and Father Puzanna about the problem with the Old Testament.
Talk about an angry father. I mean, that's bad, that's
really bad. In the Old Testament. It's very hard for
many people to reconcile the God in the Old Testament
(05:29):
with the God in the New Testament. I have my
own ways to reconcile it. But you mentioned Romans, and
of course Romans was written by Paul aka alias Saul
the Christian Killer, who, like you, became a believer. That
happens to have my favorite Bible verse of all times
(05:53):
in Romans. That's why I have a particular love for Romans.
But that said, so you're dying the atheists, you're coming
covering the crime be nothing but murder, ray Cholmleas Station
Mayhem all day long, and you like it. So how
did you end up becoming a Christian? Much less a
(06:13):
Christian author? Best selling author, New York Times bestselling author.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
My wife was agnostic. She met a neighbor who was
a Christian, shared Jesus with her, went to church with her,
and then she came and gave me the worst news
an atheists husband could get. She said, I decided to
become a Christian, and I thought divorce would be the answer.
But then I thought maybe I could rescue her from
this cult that she got involved in. So I decided
to take my legal training and my journalism training and
(06:39):
systematically investigate is there any credibility to the resurrection of
Jesus Christ? Because I figured, even as an atheist, that
is the foundation, that is the lynchpin of the Christian faith,
because Jesus clearly may transcendent and missying in divine claims
about himself. But so what I could do that? You
could do that, anybody could do that. But if Jesus
claimed to be God, died and then three days later
(07:01):
return from the dead. That's pretty good evidence he's telling
the truth. And so I spent two years of my
life using my journalism and legal trainee to investigate the
data of history to try to come to an informed
verdict on whether or not Jesus backed up his claim
to being the son of God by returning from the
dead in the third Day. And I became convinced, based
(07:22):
on history, on documents, based on I witness accounts, and
so forth, that Jesus is who he claim to be.
And that's when I abandoned my atheism and received Jesus
as my forgiver and a leader joining me.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
In addition to best selling author Lee Struggle, Father Cedric Pisana,
Father Cedric ministries airs on tb N on Sundays and
at seven am on EWTN Sundays at nine thirty am.
He's the author of Rise, Living, The Risen Life, and
(07:59):
Death I Surrender. There are twenty five books to go through. Father.
Thank you for being with us. You know, Les Trouble
just said so many interesting things, But one thing he
said was that Christ declared himself the son of God.
Now you know what I noticed, And of course I'm
just a la person compared to all of you Christian intellectuals,
(08:22):
but I noticed that very often when Christ would perform
a miracle, which was documented in many written sources at
the time by non Christians, they would often refer to
Christ as basically an insurrectionist that could perform magic, healing
people through magic. They didn't know what to make of it.
(08:45):
But Father, I noticed from my point of view in
the Gospels, whenever he would perform a miracle, he would say,
don't tell anybody. And when he would be asked who
are you, even by Pacha's pilot, he would not come
out and say I am the son of God. It
(09:06):
was there at the very end, when the disciples still
weren't getting it, that he did claim to be the
son of God. But I found him to be I
find him to be very humble. I mean, in everything
he did, it's a lesson on how we are to live.
(09:29):
I don't find him touting his own horn that often.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Yeah, he wasn't that way. He taught with parables and
he taught with a lot of wisdom. But he's the
only person I have ever heard of, both written and
spoken that ever said I am the resurrection in the life.
These are unprecedented claims. And we're talking about the proof
of the resurrection, Nancy, and I thank you for having
(09:52):
me on. I'm a Catholic priest and for two thousand
years the Church has been present proclaiming this that there
not only is there a resurrection of Jesus, but we
are all going to be resurrected in the last stay
and stand before God. And when you talk about proof
of the resurrection, let me say this. I liken it
to a boat. If there's a boat going through a harbor,
(10:15):
it creates a wake in the same way the resurrection
has created a wake. For example, the Bible, the New
Testament has come forth because of that that the apostles
have died for this, They've been martyred.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
People don't die, Father, bizigna father when you know many
people And I can't wait to hear the rest of
the pane'll talk about this. Like myself sometimes wonder is
this real? But wondering is not a sin. It's not
(10:51):
the end of you as a Christian. And I would
like to refer to Thomas the Doubter when he said
I don't believe the resurrection has bs. Excuse me, Father
Christ did not hate him, he didn't reject him. He
wooed Thomas and showed him his scars. He felt where
(11:15):
the sword had gone in Christ's side, and Thomas no
longer doubted something. You just said that the disciples were
willing to die, to die horrible deaths. When Peter the
Rock was murdered, he refused to be crucified. He said
(11:37):
that was the way Christ was killed. I'm not worthy
of that and was crucified upside down these people. When
I feel weak, I think of them and all the
early Christians that were murdered for their beliefs. They would
rather die than recan't Christ? And that is very persuasive
(11:58):
to me speaking about Yeah, let me share.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
This very quickly because you have other panelists here. But
I had a young man come up to me. He
was a teenager, and he said, Father Ceda could sizter.
How do we know that Jesus was risen? And that's
the question before us right now. And what I told
him was, I know he's risen because he lives in me.
He's changed my life. I have actually had two near
(12:22):
death experiences where I encountered the risen Christ, and this
so revolutionized my life that I became a Catholic priest
with a vow of poverty, chastity and obedience. And Jesus said,
by your fruit you will know them. So the bottom
line is that he pours out his Holy Spirit upon people,
and that's the proof of the resurrection, that you can
encounter Christ and that your doubts can be turned into faith.
(12:46):
But more than anything, Jesus wants faith from us.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Crime stores with nancy grace.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
Jesus triumphal entry into Jerusalem was a threat to the
religious leaders of the day, as their power was derived
from rules and traditions. Jesus was also seen as a
political threat by religious leaders as well as Roman authority,
fearing the populace would unite behind Jesus, leading to unrest.
Some of Jesus' early supporters expect him to be a
political or military leader and are disappointed to find out otherwise.
(13:24):
In the crowds, we're instigators, sowing seeds of false information
about Jesus and our right lies, causing the people to
question him, leading to his arrest gang mentality.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Okay, one thing I don't understand as how a single
guy from all places, Bethlehem, Nazareth was a political threat.
He owned one pair of sandals that somebody probably gave
him a robe, and that was it. How did one
(13:58):
guy post such an incredible threat to the hierarchy, not
just the local religious leaders, but beyond to the Roman Empire?
Joining me an all star panel as we head into
our super Bowl Easter to Lee's strobel joining us. How
(14:19):
many times have I wanted to speak to you along
with an all star panel? Each a bright light in
this world. Lee is the author of a brand new book,
Seeing the Supernatural, but also The Case for Christ, which
I have listened to many times Lee on tape. So Lee,
(14:44):
can we talk about proof? Yes, and everything that father
Father Pizana has said, Michael Lacona has said is true.
But I can't go to a Jerry and say, Okay,
this guy said ed he saw a vision of a
man that died two thousand years ago, and that's my proof.
(15:09):
Do I believe it? Yes? I believe it happened. Can
I offer it as proof? Probably not. Now give me
some proof, Lee, Sure, the things I heard you talk
about in your book. Can we just start with eyewitnesses?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Sure? Most of the facts that we accept as being
true about the ancient world when you dig down into them,
are based on one source or two sources of information.
We have no fewer than nine ancient early sources confirming
and corroborating their conviction that they encountered the risen Christ. First,
we have a report of the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
(15:46):
including named eye witnesses and groups of eyewitnesses, far too
quick to be a legend that developed over the centuries
that came later. A second, we have Paul's testimony. He
had been Saul of Tarsus, he had an encounter with
the risen Christ. Then he became the apostle Paul. But
then he got to know some of the apostles, including Peter, James,
and John. And Paul says himself, he says, regarding the resurrection,
(16:09):
whether it is I or they, this is what we preach.
In other words, I was an eyewitness, and their eyewitnesses too. Third,
we have Peter himself in the Book of Acts, which
even skeptical scholars will accept as a book about the
spread of early Christianity. And Peter gets up before a
group and he says, God has raised this Jesus to life,
to which we're all witnesses, and three thousand people that
(16:31):
day said Peter, we know you're telling the truth, and
the Church was born. The next four sources are the
Gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. There are nine appearances
of the risen Jesus in those gospels, and we have
every reason to believe that those gospels are reliable. They
are early enough, they are rooted into the right streams,
They go back to Jesus and the original people. There's proximity,
(16:53):
there's verification of distinct points with archaeology and other documents.
So there's the inner logic, of course, continuity.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Whoa whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa. See you're so smart.
You and everybody else on this panel other than me
are just you know, rieling it off. Got me drinking
for the fire hydrants. Stroebe. You can't take all that in.
But you said eye witnesses, and you were referring to
the disciples multiple accounts. I'm going to circle back to that,
(17:25):
But what about what about outside the Bible? I want
to get to that, the writings outside the Bible, but
the hundreds of people that reportedly saw him during the
forty days he walked the earth post crucifixion.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
What about them, Yeah, they're mentioned in that creed that
I mentioned, that early report of the resurrection. It says
it mentioned the specific names of eyewitnesses to whom he appeared,
including Peter, including James, the half brother of Jesus, who
who was not a follower of Jesus during Jesus' lifetime,
he was radically converted and became a ultimately martyred for
his faith as a leader of the Church of Jerusalem
(18:06):
because he encountered the risen Jesus. And it talks about
groups of people, including five hundred people at once, who
encountered the resurrected Jesus and Peter, and Paul said to
the church in court, he said, I'm paraphrase. He basically said, look,
you don't believe me. A lot of these five hundred
witnesses are still around. Go talk to them. They'll tell
you the truth. And then we have people who actually
(18:29):
sat under the teachings of the eyewitnesses themselves, and they
tell us what the eyewitnesses said. So, for instance, we
have Clement, who we believe was ordained by Peter himself,
and Clement wrote a letter right there in the first
century in which you said the disciples had quote complete
certainty caused by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(18:51):
And then we have Polycart, who we believe was appointed
the bishop of the Church of Smyrna by John himself,
and he wrote a letter to the Philippian chore and
he said, you mentioned the resurrection no fewer than five times,
and he said, I'll quote him. He said about Paul
and the other apostles, he said, for they did not
love the present age, but him who died for their
(19:12):
benefit and for our sake, was raised by God. So
we have nine ancient sources going back extremely early, confirming
and corroborating that the disciples were convinced that Jesus was
resurrected and appeared to them.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
And I'd like to point out not just the disciples.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yes, that's rights.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yes, members of the then current religious regime were converted,
and they were very anti Christ or converted Romans who
had their lives to lose if they converted, did convert
because they saw him, they would rather go so live
(20:00):
in caves. What if somebody said, okay, you need to
pack up all your stuff and go live in a
cave with your children. They did that rather than recan't
their beliefs joining me now in addition to Lee's Strobull,
author of The Case for christ Father, Cedric Pizania, Michael Lacona,
(20:23):
Billy Hallowell is joining US. Host at CBN Christian Broadcasting Network,
has a new documentary out investigating the supernatural Miracles, has
two podcasts, multiple books at Billyhollowell dot com. Billy. One
thing that is very convincing to me is that many
(20:44):
people like strobel did not believe. They didn't believe. In fact,
they had a great interest personal interest in not believing.
They would lose their job, they would lose their home,
they could be put to death if they chose to believe.
Yet after seeing Christ following the Resurrection, walking the earth
(21:10):
for forty days, they chose to give it all up
and become believers. Not just the disciples, not just them
his close followers, but people that didn't even know him before.
I find that very probative.
Speaker 5 (21:25):
Well, it is, and you think about the fact that
you were saying, before you know some people, you know,
why was Jesus such a threat to so many people?
And he's performing miracles, and he's walking around and he's
doing these things that are shocking people and making them
wonder who is he really? And I would say I
think this is important to talk about. We're talking about
the history in the past. We're talking about what the
Bible says and whether it's true, whether he resurrected. Let's
(21:48):
look at the world today. You asked that question about
people living in caves around the world. Today, Christian persecution
is the worst that it has ever been in history.
There are millions of people who are very much worse
off and living in caves. They're being slaughtered and murdered
and killed because they will not recant the faith. So
that same proof that we're talking about actually back then
(22:08):
with Paul and so many others. We're watching people live
that out actively in those changed lives right now as
we speak, in countries around the world. And I'll tell
you the thing, Nick.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Queer, I want to hear about current Christian persecution.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
Absolutely, the World Watch List every year they rank the
worst countries. North Korea is typically number one, Nigeria right now,
and I would encourage people to look this up. We
cover this at CBN frequently. What is happening in Nigeria
is horrific. The slaughter, the murder, the killing, the systematic,
I mean pastors and leaders and normal Christians, people who
(22:44):
will not recant their faith. Not only are these second
class citizens in many of these countries, but they are
put in labor camps and they are slaughtered. And this
is very actively happening around the world. Here in America,
we don't think about these things because generally speaking, we
have very good First Amendment religion, liberty. Other countries this
does not exist. And so but my point is that
proof that we're talking about, we see it being lived
(23:06):
out actively right now in our world today, and that's
easy to look past it.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
I think it's important to discuss again. We are heading
into the most sacred time of the year for Christians
around the world, and that is Easter. It's painful to
hear from me. It's painful to hear the way Christ
was treated.
Speaker 6 (23:28):
Jesus was arrested on charges of sedition because the Romans
saw him as a serious threat to their authority. Jewish
leaders felt the same way, Jesus's teachings were a threat
to their authority. The combination of leadership from the political
and religious parts of society, coupled with the groundswell of
false information, turned the crowds against Jesus. It took only
one week from the city of Jerusalem to go from
(23:50):
praise him to crucify him.
Speaker 7 (23:53):
Jesus was arrested late on Thursday night after the Passover meal.
He appeared before the Sanhedrin immediately, as the Jewish leaders
wanted him try as quickly as possible. He is accused
of blasphemy and claiming to be King of the Jews.
He is judged guilty, condemned to die, and turned over
to Ponche's pilot.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
To Elis Strobel, joining us former legal editor at the
Chicago Tribune. And I say that to tell you that
he is a hard boiled investigative reporter, former atheist who
is now a devout Christian. And of course, when I
say devout Christian, I don't really see many people think
(24:35):
that that means perfect. We are anything but perfect. And
that is to me the beauty of Christianity, because if
Christ could take the disciples who were quite the lot, okay,
and turn them in to heroes, maybe maybe there's a
(24:57):
chance for the rest of us. And I'm throwing Paul
and that pot to stew. He actually tortured and killed
Christians and became a great, great supporter of Christ and
is the author of Romans in the Bible, the Book
of Romans. Speaking of probative evidence again, Lee, I've described
(25:20):
how I now see the world after law school. I
went to law school following the murder of my fiance.
I went from that emotional mess to becoming a felony prosecutor.
And the only way I could do it was to
shut out any and all emotion and look at the facts.
(25:47):
No my case and their case better than they did,
so I could be prepared to destroy it. So I'm
asking you about hard evidence. We've talked about eyewitness accounts
that saw Christ following, walking and talking, eating food after
(26:10):
the resurrection after being crucified, and there was no doubt
he was killed because when his body first turned up
missing out of the tomb, Pilot sent his hitch people
to look in all of the graves, mass graves, burial
grounds to try to find his body to parade it
(26:31):
and show, look, he's really dead, but it couldn't be found. Now,
what I want to talk to you about is contemporaneous
writings at the time about Christ and contemporaneous means a
lot to me because we are very willing to accept.
For instance, the story of the Trojan War in Iliad
(26:52):
and Odyssey written by Homer, and that was written hundreds
of years after the Trojan War. I believe it was
written in the same with the right century. But yeah,
we're like, yeah, okay, I get it. Trojan War, it happened.
Why is it such heresy to say John three sixteen
true story. I don't get the difference. I want to
(27:13):
talk about writings at the time by non Christians that
talk about Christ.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Well, we have all kinds of evidence from the first century.
You know, Jesus really proved his divinity by returning from
the dead. Before he died, he got up before a
group and he said, I and the Father are one.
And the Greek word for one there is not masculinus neuter,
which means Jesus was not saying I and the Father
are the same person. He was saying, I and the
(27:39):
Father are the same thing or one in nature. We're
one in essence. And the audience understood that we were saying,
because they picked up stones to kill him. He said,
you you're just a man and you're claiming to be God.
So Jesus claimed to be gone, but so what anybody
can do that? But it was his resurrection that proved
that he is indeed who he claimed to be, the
unique son of God. And so you would expect that
(28:01):
there would be writings in the first century shortly thereafter
that would establish the truth of the resurrection. And we
do have this report with named eye witnesses and groups
of eyewitnesses that has been dated back to within months
of his death. I mean, I don't know if people
realize how significant that is historically when you consider the
first two biographies of Alexander the Great were written by
(28:21):
Arian and Plutarch four hundred years after his life, and
they're generally considerable. And yet here we have a report
going back within months of his death, after he affirmed
who he is by attorney from the dead. Not only that,
but we've had, as I mentioned, the nine ancient sources
confirming the conviction of the Disciples that they did encounter
him resurrected. The Disciples were in a different position of
(28:44):
all human beings who've ever lived on the planet. They
were there, they touched the resurrected Jesus. They talked to them,
they ate with them. They knew for a fact. They
didn't just believe it. They knew for a fact is
this true or is it a lie? And knowing it
was true, they were willing to live lives of deprivation
and suffering. They were willing to die for their proclamation
(29:05):
that Jesus had risen. Nobody knowingly and willingly dies for
a lie.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Joining me is another special guest. In addition to Strobel,
Father Pausania, Michael Lacona, and Billy Hollowell. Longtime friend and
colleague now author Guy Powell, host of podcasts The Backstory
on the Shroud of Turan, which is amazing. It's incredible
(29:35):
your podcast, but also author of a brand new book,
one of many, The Only Witness A History of the
Shroud of Turin, I believe. Could you show me your copy.
I'm sure you've got one handy, Guy Powell new book,
The Only Witness A History of the Shroud of Turin.
(29:56):
I want to follow up Guy on something that Strobel
Lee Strobe just said. He is referring to eyewitnesses. He's
referring to people that came in contact with the disciples
and described what they said and how they were willing
to die for what they witnessed. I want to talk
to you, and this ties in with your assertion that
(30:20):
the shroud of Turin is real, that it was used
to wrap the body of Christ, and he emerged from
the tomb and the shroud survived with his imprint on it.
I want to refer you to Cornelius Tacitus. He lived
(30:40):
fifty six to one twenty AD. Secular, secular, non religious.
And this is what I look for when I try
a case. Say I put up an eyewitness. I know
he's going to be he she's going to be attacked
on cross examination, hopefully not destroyed. But I look for
corroborating facts. How can I corroborate? Can I corroborate what
(31:03):
this witness has said with impartial evidence? Okay, then I
can tell a Jerry. This is why you should believe
Guy Powell, because one, two, three, and four it's irrefutable.
I don't care what they say, so Guy. Back to
Cornelie's Tacitus. He confirmed several historical elements that have been
(31:24):
found in secular, non religious texts, for instance, that Christ
did live in Judea, was crucified under pontchous pilots, his
followers were persecuted and murdered, and much more so. So
much of the story is corroborated by secular, non religious translation.
(31:49):
They don't have a dog in the fight, no skin
of the game, they don't care corroborates the story of Christ.
Speaker 8 (31:55):
Yeah, that is such an important piece of the evidence
and the proof of the resurrection, you know, that singular
thing that really defines Christianity. And you know, and even
when you look at those other writers and how they
also reflect what's been written in the Gospels as well.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
You know.
Speaker 8 (32:15):
So you have, you know, the appearances and those are
written in the Gospels. You have then the crucifixion that's
described in the gospels. You have the the the wounds
that he suffered, and and and other evidence that's of
course now found on the shrouds. So you have the
written evidence that you've been talking about so far. But
now we have actually what I believe to be physical
(32:38):
evidence that reflects what's in the in the four Gospels,
with the wounds to the hands, with the wounds to
the feet, with the wounds to the side, with the
crown of thorns, with the beating and the and the
wounds from all of those whippings that he suffered, and
the shroud of Turin reflects all of that. And so
(33:01):
I think that you know that right there, in addition
to all of these writings from the contemporary authors contemporaneous authors,
also reflects that another dimension of proof that supports these
other writers.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
He was nailed to a cross and hung between two
convicted thieves. A sign attached to the top of the
cross said Jesus of Nazareth, king of the Jews. Crucifixion
is not a fast death, and the Gospel of Mark
says Jesus was crucified at the third hour or nine am.
While on the cross, Jesus was taunted and harassed. Around noon,
darkness covered the earth and lasted for hours. In the
(33:37):
ninth hour, around three pm, Jesus died on the cross.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Crime stores with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
In the Bible. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke
describe a darkness covering the land from noon to three
peace during jesus crucifixion. Dallas was a historian and secular
writer around fifty a d who is probably the earliest
secular writer to mention Jesus, but his works don't exist
anymore except where quoted by Julius Africanus in two twenty
one AD. Dallas previously tried to explain the way the
(34:17):
darkness occurring at jesus crucifixion. He said, quote on the
whole world there pressed the most fearful darkness, and the
rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in
Judea and other districts were thrown down this darkness. Thallas,
in the third book of his history calls as appears
to me without reason an eclipse of the sun.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
The darkness and the temple being ripped in half has
now been corroborated. Well, it was already corroborated in ancient
writings by Tallis in the third book of his history,
straight out to Lie's struggle. I find it very interesting
that in your case for Christ, you report many, many
Roman accounts of corroboration of the story of Christ and
(35:02):
the resurrection, but you also refer to Jewish accounts. Christ
was a Jew, and you refer to the Talmud and
important Jewish work where he was referred to as a
false messiah who quote practiced magic and would heal people
(35:23):
through some magical means. I find that very corroborative.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Well, very much so. And also the Talmud also reports
that Jesus was executed and thus killed. You know, a
lot of skeptics like I had been, said, well, maybe
Jesus didn't die on the cross, Maybe he survived the crucifixion,
maybe he fainted, maybe the cool, damp air of the
tomb resuscitated him. And so that's where this idea of
(35:48):
the resurrection came from. But we have five ancient sources
outside the Bible that report the execution of Jesus, including Josephus,
a first century Jewish historian, Tacitus of Oarsarapian, Lucian, and
the Jewish Talman. In fact, get this, even the Journal
of the American Medical Association, a secular, scientific, peer reviewed
(36:11):
medical journal, carried an investigation into the death of Jesus,
and their conclusion was quote Clearly, the weight of the
historical and medical evidence indicates that Jesus was dead even
before the wound to his side was inflicted. So this
idea that somehow Jesus survived the crucifixion is disproven by
(36:31):
reports inside the New Testament, outside the New Testament, and
even the Journal of the American Medical Association, to the
point where one of the most famous atheist New Testament scholar,
Garret Ludeman, said, it is indisputable historically that Jesus died
an he was crucified.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
The dying part I get Father sedik Pazania is the resurrection.
I believe that it bears great scrutiny. I have been
convinced for many, many reasons. But Father, really the cold,
damn air in the tomb revived him. He was almost
(37:10):
severed and half with a sword through his side, one
side to the next. He was dead, Father. And also
can I get you to address Father? Which I find
very significant the fact that women, who are so mistreated
around the world, so looked down upon, so not able
to speak, women Mary and Mary Magdalene were the first
(37:36):
to find him. They were the ones to find that
he was no longer in the tomb. I find that
very significant.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
I do too, because you would think that the gospel
writers would want to downplay that, but they told the
truth as it was that a woman, a second class
cisten in that society, was the first to witness the resurrection,
and if they were trying to create a lie scenario.
They wouldn't have said that at all. But let me
say this also. You quoted Thomas the doubter, and Jesus
(38:08):
said to him, you believe because you've seen a Blessed
to those who believe without seeing. Whether it be the
shroud or the evidence we're presenting. In a trial, jury
goes to talk talk things over. Then they have to
make a decision. And I think that's what God wants
from us. He wants faith, wants us to make a decision.
(38:29):
He could have given us more evidence, but I think
it's exactly the way God wanted it, and now it's
our choice. Blessed to those who believe without seeing, and
as you believe, you will see. That's the Gospel of John.
Seeing doesn't come just by seeing, it comes through faith.
And that's what I think this whole program is about.
(38:52):
We're hoping to inspire people's faith that there not only
is a resurrection, but it can change your life. So
Blessed to those who believe without seeing.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
To Billie Hallowell joining us from CBN, gimme your best
case for the resurrection.
Speaker 5 (39:09):
Yeah, I think the biggest question of where the body
is we've gone through so many facts today. I mean,
I look at Paul in his life. I mean, these
are radical transformations. You have the five hundred. I think
it's important to go back to that. And if you
look at where these five hundred people who apparently all
saw Jesus at the same time after his death and resurrection,
it's written in First Corinthians. That book was written in
(39:31):
a D fifty five and as Lee was saying, this
was at a time when most of the people were
still alive. I mean, you think about you have to
put all the pieces together into a puzzle, and when
you do that, it becomes remarkable that somebody Paul would
be willing to write that. But I think the biggest evidence,
obviously everything we've talked about extending into today, and most
(39:53):
of my job is spent talking to people whose lives
have changed. They've gone from prison to finding Jesus. They've
gone from her horrific careers in drugs and other places.
I won't even mention into becoming pastors. What is it
that changes a person. It's the very same thing through
the resurrection that we see in the Bible, and we're
seeing that still in people's lives.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Today. Well, put Billy Guy Powell. Having prosecuted crimes for
so long, horrible felonies, people torturing each other, literally, torturing babies, murdering,
just drugs, I'm convinced that just as there is a
Holy Father, that there is a devil. I don't know
(40:35):
the ins and outs, I don't know the details, but
from what I've seen, it's very real in our world. Guy,
best case for the resurrection hit me?
Speaker 8 (40:46):
Yeah, I mean, I agree with everybody else, but I
think the best case is the Shroud of Turin. It
is a physical proof that has actual proof and elements
in it that reflect the resurrection and reflect the I'm sorry,
reflect the gospels. All four of the Gospels talk about
(41:08):
the inhumane, the devilish things that the Romans did to
this man. And each one of those things, the crown
of thorns as you're showing the you know, the whip marks,
that the nailing through the hands and the feet, and
then the side wound to make sure that he was dead.
(41:28):
All of those are reflected on the shroud. And that
shroud then has been around for two thousand years. It
has proof, many many different proofs that indicate that it
is two thousand years old, and that it has, you know,
survived all of these earthquakes and fires and things like that,
and it would never have survived if it wasn't the
(41:50):
proof to me, if it wasn't the proof that Jesus
Christ lived on the earth, he walked with us, and
then he died and was resurrected.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Guy Powell, author of The Only Witness, A History of
the Shroud of Turin. If you still doubt, which I'm
sure many people do, conduct your own investigation as Les
Trouble did, as Father Pausania did, Michael Lacone, Guy Powell,
Billy Hallowell. Find out the truth for yourself beyond a
(42:23):
reasonable doubt. John three point sixteen True story Nancy Grace
signing off goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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