Libby German's and Abby Williams' families were informed that crime scene photos, including some very gruesome images of the girls, would be shown during testimony.
Although the photos have not been made public, they were shown to the jury, and members of the gallery could also see them. As the photos were displayed, Crime Scene Investigator Sergeant Jason Page described what was captured in the 42 crime scene photos, including more than 20 images of Libby and Abby.
Sgt. Page took the crime scene photos presented in court. Referring to the area as "ground zero," Page explained that the taped-off section was roughly the size of a football field, though most of the physical evidence was concentrated within 30 to 40 feet of the girls' bodies.
The photos clearly showed a significant amount of blood at the scene, with Sgt. Page testifying that there was enough blood to soak into the ground beneath the leaves.
One of the photos depicted Libby and Abby lying less than five feet apart, their feet angled toward each other. Fourteen-year-old Libby was nude, her pale skin stained with blood on her hands, thigh, chest, throat, and face. She was covered with twigs, which crisscrossed her throat, and a heavy bough lay lengthwise across her left side.
Thirteen-year-old Abby, lying to Libby's right, was dressed in some of Libby's clothing in addition to her own. Sgt. Jason Page noted that her jeans appeared damp.
During the photo presentation, an image unexpectedly flashed on the screen without warning or introduction. It was a close-up of Libby German's bloodied face.
The image startled the courtroom, causing audible gasps from the families in the gallery, and prompted an apology from State Attorney James Luttrull Jr., who said he had intended to provide a lead-in to the picture.
Anticipating the prosecution's introduction of audio and video recordings from Libby German's phone, Richard Allen's defense team filed a motion requesting that the judge prevent the jury from seeing or hearing the recordings that were provided to the defense.
The defense team argued that the audio and video supplied by the state had been manipulated, with the audio enhanced and sections of the recording looped.
The defense is not asking to block the jury from seeing or hearing the recordings but is seeking guidelines on how the jurors will view and listen to them. They also want specific limits on the questions that can be asked of witnesses regarding the recordings.
The request aims to prevent questions that would lead witnesses to interpret the words and sounds. The defense stated, "It is up to the jury to determine what words or sounds exist on the recordings."
Richard Allen's defense team claims that the audio and video clips from Libby German's phone, provided by the state, had been enhanced and that certain sounds were looped, repeating a phrase spoken by either Libby or Abby, along with an audio clip of a man's voice.
The defense argues that these enhancements are "investigatory tools" and that "interpreting the words and sounds on the enhanced video requires a completely subjective analysis
JOINING NANCY GRACE TODAY:
- Phillip Dubé – Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law, Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy
- Dr. Bethany Marshall – Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills); X: @DrBethanyLive/ Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall; Appearing in “Paris in Love” on Peacock; BOOK: “Deal Breaker: When to work on a relationship and when to walk away”
- Sheryl McCollum – Forensics Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder; Host of Podcast: “Zone 7;” X: @149Zone7
- Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
The Delphi double murder suspect bows his head and praise
before photos of Little Abbey thirteen and Liberty fourteen are
displayed before the girrars the girls nude, Simmy Clyde and murdered.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
being with us.
Speaker 4 (00:30):
When did you get into town? I mean it's picturesque,
it's beautiful. Everybody's super friendly.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
You're talking about Delphi, Indiana.
Speaker 5 (00:39):
It was supposed to be a walk in the wood
shared by two friends, Abby Williams and Lebby Jerman. Went
to this hiking trail on your Delphi's monin high Bridge.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
But there's no way you sign that bridge if you're
not from there.
Speaker 5 (00:50):
When the girls didn't return to the spot where they
were supposed to be picked up, their families knew something
was wrong.
Speaker 6 (00:55):
They thought maybe the girls were hurt.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
That bridge is treacherous, and they never thought they would
hear that the girls were murdered.
Speaker 5 (01:05):
Carol County Shriff's Deputy Darien gen Coola, the first deputy
to arrive at the scene, said he was called to
the area of Deer Creek because they had been told
members of a search party found something, possibly bodies. Gen
Coola says there were multiple people in the area when
he saw a multi colored shirt and a shoe in
the water. He said when he first saw the bodies
of Abbey and Libby, one was new, the other was clothed.
(01:25):
Gencola said he did not perform life saving measures on
the girls because it was apparent they were deceased.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Joining us an investigative reporter who has been there in
the courtroom, Barbara McDonald joining us from Delphi. A documentary
producer and co host of Down the Hill podcast. Barbara,
thank you so much for being with us. Barbara, so
many bombshells in that courtroom. I want to start with
(01:55):
the fact that now we know why the girls clothes
clothing was soaked, and yesterday, Barbara, I couldn't figure out
why did one person say a T shirt in a tree?
Now I know, please explain.
Speaker 7 (02:12):
Yeah. So, we heard from several of the crime scene
investigators who arrived and described finding the clothing of the
girls in the creek. There were about three different areas
where the clothing was in the creek, and two of
those areas the clothing was sort of stuck on debris
in the creek.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
The hoodie, the gray hoodie.
Speaker 7 (02:34):
That Abby had been wearing that had belonged to Kelsey Jerman.
We saw Abby wearing that in that snapchat image that
Libby posted of the girls before their abduction that was
submerged in the creek. All of the clothing that was
collected from the creek was inside out, including Abby's jeans,
Libby's tied eye T shirt, that gray hoodie, two socks,
(02:59):
one black pink, and then we heard that the girls
were found. Libby was completely nude and Abby was wearing
Libby's jeans and hoodie along with a gray sports Spra
that we believe belonged to Abby. And Abby also had
her shoes on when she was found those converse sneakers
(03:22):
we saw in that same snapchat image Nancy.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
And joining us from the courthouse there in Delphi. Joining
us from Delphi is Barbara MacDonald. I want to talk
about the significance Barbara, as to why the girls' clothes
were soaked. Why when their bodies were found well after
the murders, their clothing was still soaked. Were they forced
(03:48):
to wade across the creek?
Speaker 8 (03:50):
That is the.
Speaker 7 (03:51):
Theory from the state that Richard allen forced these girls
off the bridge down the hill to a secluded area
on the south side of the creek, but then was
interrupted during that attack, that he intended to have his
way with these girls down at the bottom of the hill,
but was interrupted and then forced them to cross the
(04:13):
creek over onto Ron Logan's property where they were killed.
At the scene where they were found, the images that
we found also showed large amounts of blood at that scene.
But the crime scene investigators described the clothing that Abby
was wearing, all of it, the hoodie, the jeans, as
well as her shoes, all being damp or wet to
(04:35):
the touch, and they said it could not have come
from condensation, It could not have come from being out
in the elements overnight. That it definitely was from the creek.
They also had a lot of that silt and that
sort of dirt that's in the creek and debris on
their clothing as well as for Abby, even though she
was found wearing her shoes, they did show some images
(04:59):
of her feet at her shoes had been removed, her
feet were dirty, had some of that filthy sort of
sandy dirt on her feet as well as some leaf debris,
So it certainly appears that at some point Abbey's shoes
were off and then put back on her.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
I know this may seem obsessive, Barbera, but if you
don't mind, I'd like to hear what you said again
regarding the discovery of the clothes, their condition, who was wearing,
what where the clothes were, and then I'm going to
go forward to the actual scene, the blood soaked earth,
and my theory that the scene was staged.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Let's start with the clothes again.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
If you don't mind, Barbara, please go ahead.
Speaker 9 (05:40):
No, not at all.
Speaker 7 (05:41):
So the clothing items that were found in the creek,
there were three different areas where the clothing was found,
all within the same general area, but perhaps about ten
feet apart each of those three areas. Two of the
areas that clothing was actually stuck on debris and was
visible from the surface of the water. The gray hoodie
(06:01):
that you see Abby wearing right there in that image
was found submerged in the creek. All of the clothing
that was in the creek was inside out, and all
of those items were wet. All of those items had
that silty sandy debris from the creek is how the
crime scene investigator described it, as well as some leaf material.
(06:24):
And then, as I mentioned, Libby or Abby's feet rather
under her shoes was dirty. There was signs that she
had taken the shoes off at some point, or that
someone had, and she had walked perhaps a little ways
without any shoes on her feet, and then the shoes
were put back on. I could only see one of
her shoes in the images shown in court yesterday. That
(06:46):
shoe was not tied and the tongue appeared to be
pulled out, as if you were taking it off or
putting it back on your foot.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
To Cheryl McCollum, the director of the Cold Case Research
Institute and star of the Zone seven podcast, Cheryl, the picture,
the picture in my mind.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Of these clothes.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Covered in dirt, the one shoe, the Nike shoe, with
the clothes in the creek. You know, Cheryl, I remember
my first car jack murder case. I remember it like
I tried it yesterday. But the image that almost not
quite choked me up in front of the jury was
(07:33):
a neighbor ran out. The victim was a teen boy
and he was shot in his front his mom's front
yard where he lived and the perp took off in
the car, and the neighbor, hearing a commotion, ran out
with a pillow off of his own bed and.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Went and put it under the victim's head. The victim
was already dead. He was shot in my head.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
But when I saw the crime seen photo for the
first time, I hadn't investigated it yet.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
I'm like, why is the victim of a pillow under
his head in the driveway. And then I went and
interviewed the.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Neighbor and I found out that poignant moment where the
victim is.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Dead and he's putting his head on a pillow in
the driveway.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
That photo. And I know he's seen a lot of
horrific photos in the courtroom over the last two days
of the victims. But the image Cheryl McCollum of these
little girls clothes having been forced to strip, wet and
filthy in the creek.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Is so upsetting and poignant to me.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I can't really identify how wrong this is, Cheryl Nancy.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
What it says to me is time was taken, more
time than maybe they originally salt. In a thing like this,
It's hard to take wet clothes off, much less put
them back on. If anybody's ever fallen into water and
tried to take what gen golf, it's tough, but to
turn back around and try to put them back on,
(09:11):
you would have to struggle. Even if those genes were
a little too big for you. The fact that they
were unbuttoned and unzipped tells me Abby didn't hide that way.
You know, I think that was done again at the
murder scene. So if you take it step by step
the way Barbara has laid this out so beautifully, you
(09:32):
can see again, like we talked about yesterday, these breadcrumbs
of evidence, where you know where it started, you know
where it ended, and you know the time that it took.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Joseph Scott Morgan joining me, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,
author of Blood Beneath My Feet on amazon As, started
a hitting new series, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan
Joe Scott.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
We keep referring to the fact that.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Libby was nude and Abby had on Libby's clothing. Well,
at some point Abby was nude too. Abby was forced
to strip as well. So I'm going to get to
the fact that we don't have any DNA from the perp,
the alleged purp yet. But Joe Scott, I would like
you to help me analyze what Barbara has told us,
(10:24):
because I am telling you in every sentence that she conveyed,
which has just come out in the courtroom, there is
probitive value.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Each thing proves something to me. The fact that the.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Clothing was apart but in three separate areas, the fact
that some of it was down the stream. Obviously he
was trying to get rid of the clothing by throwing it.
Or did the girl strip there and then forced to
a secluded area. We know that they were barefoot. Why
were they barefoot? We know that their clothing was still
(10:57):
soaked by the time their bodies were found.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Tell me what this tells you, Joe Scott.
Speaker 10 (11:04):
I think that the idea of the clothing being separated
out over an area, this goes to a pattern with
this fellow. Let me expand on that. I think that
for each item that's there, there's a potential he was
throwing these items in front of these children, one by
one into the creek. Imagine how menacing that is when
(11:25):
you begin to think about your watching these young girls
being humiliated relative to exposure of their bodies to this
creepy guy that's out there in the woods, not to
mention one another out in the open, and all the
while it's a matter of control. He has a pattern
of menacing Nancy. And if we could bring the camera
(11:47):
back up, let me show you something else here, the
idea that they had a live forty caliber round at
the scene that had been cycled through a weapon. Again,
that goes to menacing. You're going to push these girls
to do whatever you want them to do, and then afterwards, afterwards,
(12:08):
you're going to redress bodies. So you've got all these
bits of evidence that are spread about. I don't think
that these are random in any way. I think they
were used to leverage these girls doing whatever he wanted
to do. People talk about how it was an unusually
warm day. Let me tell you what what and warm
at water? That water will get your attention. That time
of year up there, it's freezing. So you talk about
(12:31):
debasing and humiliating, that's only a part of it.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Doctor Bethany Marshall with US, renowned psycho analyst joining us
out of la author of deal Breaker. You can see
her on Peacock or find her at Doctor Bethany Marshall
dot com Doctor Bethany, two thoughts.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
You know, a gun makes a big man little and
a little man.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Big, and that's just what he was doing. As Joe
Scott said, he was anacing. But think about it, doctor Bethany.
Humiliating these two prepubescent girls one thirteen, one's fourteen, I
mean they look.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Like little girls.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Humiliating them by making them strip a in front of
a guy, a grown man they hardly know the pharmacy
tic for Pete's sake, and out in public in the.
Speaker 6 (13:16):
Woods, Nancy, I can imagine these port little girls screaming
and crying and just so distraught, Nancy. Where this all
begins for me? And I love Joe Scott. Morgan's use
of the word menacing is when he says down the
Hill that if you listen to his tone of voice,
it's dripping with contempt hatred. You are two bad little girls.
Speaker 7 (13:38):
You belong to me.
Speaker 6 (13:39):
If anybody watching this program has ever been an abuse
of relationship, they will recognize that tone of voice. He
makes them wade through the river. I do agree with
the panel he is trying to have control over them
in every way possible, but also to degrade to human
(14:00):
miliate and to force them into sexual submission is really
behind a lot of these crimes. And in terms of
throwing the clothing in the creek, he was wanting.
Speaker 9 (14:08):
To scare them.
Speaker 6 (14:09):
It's like, don't run away, your clothing is not here anymore.
And the fact that Nancy he put the clothing back on,
it was like he was preserving the bodies to come
back later so he could rape them again.
Speaker 9 (14:21):
Richard Allen's defense team claims the audio and video clips
found on Libby German's phone that they receive from the
state have been enhanced and the sounds have been put
on a loop repeating a phrase spoken by either Libby
or Abby, as well as an audio clip of a
man speaking. The defense claims those enhancements are investigatory tools
and that interpreting the words and sounds on the enhanced
(14:43):
video requires a completely subjective analysis.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
I bet they are trying to get that audio suppressed.
Now we know why.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Joining me from Delphi, Barbara McDonald, who hasn't missed a
word of testimony, Barbara McDonald. Isn't it true that when
the audio is enhanced, because remember Libby is walking along
on gravel.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Then you can't. The wind is blowing.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
She's out there in the woods coming down off that
trestle bridge, which is really high up. If you take
a good look at it, it's up there with treetops.
It's very high up.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
We visited it.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
It's way up there. So she's walking along the gravel
off this trestle bridge. If you enhance that audio, multiple
ear witnesses state that you hear one of the girls
saying words to the effect of does he have a
gun or gun?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
He's still there? Or is he still there?
Speaker 1 (15:48):
That's why they don't.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
Want it enhanced.
Speaker 7 (15:52):
I listened to that video several times, Nancy and I
really struggled to make out what exactly being said. In
addition to the gravel and the wind that you mentioned,
Abby or rather Libby, when she's making that video, is
moving her phone up and down almost like this, and
so you don't have one steady shot of the man.
(16:15):
You definitely see at the beginning of the video that
he is further behind Abby. Abby is looking down at
the railroad ties. We all know it's a very treacherous
bridge to cross, and you need to pay attention to
where you're putting your feet, and she appears to be
doing that to me, it sounded like she was asking
Libby if he's still there, if he's still behind her,
(16:38):
And towards the end of the video, he absolutely makes
up much of that ground and is much closer to
her at the end of the video than he is
at the beginning of that forty two second video. The
video ends right after he tells them down the hill.
We did hear testimony and saw pictures of a slide
(16:58):
area where the leaves were disturbed at the south end
of that bridge. Going down that hill, it is very steep.
I have walked that area myself. I went down on
my butt, So you could imagine that perhaps the girls
did the same thing.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Would that disturbance of the leaves, Barbara MacDonald be consistent
with the girls going down on that side and then
being forced to weigh across the creek and their bodies
being found on the other side.
Speaker 7 (17:24):
Yeah, So there were two hills they would have gone down.
The first part of the hill was described as perhaps
fifteen or twenty feet down, and then there's a gravel
driveway that's a private driveway belonging to one of the
homeowners on that south side of the creek, and then
there's another hill also about fifteen or twenty feet that
(17:45):
they would have gone down to be in what was
described as sort of a floodplain area closer to the creek,
and the state's theory is that that's where Richard Allen
was intending to have his way with these girls. Those
are the prosecutor words from his opening statement, and that
he was interrupted there perhaps by that homeowner who would
(18:08):
have been driving along that private drive about three point
thirty that afternoon, and then therefore crossed the creek with
the girls onto Ron Logan's property where they were killed.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Orba McDonald, tell me again your impressions of what you
could hear.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Did you hear the enhanced version or not.
Speaker 7 (18:29):
I don't believe I heard the enhanced version. I heard
the original version. You could make out the down the
hill spoken by the man. There is only one man
in the video that I saw that forty two second video.
But I really struggled to hear what I believe Abby
says to Libby about is he still there. I really
(18:51):
listened for the word gun. I even closed my eyes
and listened to the video a couple of times, trying
to really make out what was spoken, and it is
just not very clear. Certainly wasn't clear to me. I
think it is open to interpretation, which is why I
think the defense wants the jury to be able to
(19:11):
hear those words and make up their own mind about.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
What is said.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
My question is, Barbara, according to others that have heard
the audio, they can make out the word gun and
words to the effect of he has a gun?
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Does he have a gun?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
It's really hard to make it out other than hearing
what you believe you heard to be is he still
there or he is still there?
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Could you hear the.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Girl speaking at all? Other than that one comment?
Speaker 7 (19:53):
You hear Libby saying something to the man. It sounds
like at some point before the video begin he gave
them some sort of instructions and she is standing there
at the end of the bridge saying there's no place
to go, there's no path, and that's when he says,
down the hill, and that's right as you can hear
(20:15):
the rustling of them perhaps beginning that descent down the hill,
and that's when the video cuts out and you don't
see or hear anything else.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Okay, So you, Barbara, were able to make out. We
usually hear with the naked eye, but with the naked
ear un enhanced, you hear is it Libby or I'd
be saying there's no path, there's no place to go.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Who do you think it's Libby saying that? And then
after that you hear the guy on the bridge say
down the hill?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
And then Barbara, Yes, the state is bringing in evidence
that there were disturbed beliefs down the hill.
Speaker 7 (20:56):
Yes, And I had heard that previously from a member
of Libby's family who searched that south end of the
bridge that he described seeing an area that he said
looked to him like somebody slid on their butt down
the hill. And that's sort of how the crime scene
investigators described it. It would have been very difficult to
(21:16):
walk down that hill, especially if you were scared or
being forced or in a rush. When I went down
that hill, it was very steep, very slippery because of
all the leaves that are in the area, and I
scooted it on my bottom down most of that hill.
Once you get closer to the bottom, it does even
out a bit before you get to that gravel driveway.
(21:40):
But then there's another hill also about fifteen or twenty
feet down on the other side of that gravel driveway
to get down to the area near the creek.
Speaker 9 (21:50):
Richard Allen's defense team foulews emotion, asking the judge to
prevent the jury from seeing or hearing the recordings that
were turned over to the defense. The defense team claimed
the audio and video the state turned over to them
has been manipulated by enhancing the audio and looping the recording.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
We are at the courthouse bringing you the latest as
the Delphi murderers trial goes on. And with me from
Delphi is Barbara McDonald. To the rest of the panel.
I'll bring you right in, but I want to get
all the facts from her.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Barbara, the defense is trying so hard to keep this
video and audio away from the jury, and now we
know why. The more I question you, the more I learn.
Now you're telling me that you hear Libby stating, as
he's obviously holding them a gunpoint from what others say
(22:45):
they hear reference to a gun on the audio telling
them to go down into the woods off the trestle bridge.
Libby says there's no place to go, there's no path,
and he says down the hill now let's connect this.
Then the state is introducing evidence where the leaves are disturbed.
Do you want the very same path and you ended
up on your rear end going down on your rear end.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
We then know they confronted the creek and then.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
For whatever reason, they were forced to wade across the creek,
the clothes completely soaked. I want to ask you to
think back, is there anything else that you could make
out on that audio or video, anything at all? Because
I've already learned they're saying there's no place to go,
there's no path, the possibility that they are saying he's
(23:33):
got a gun them stating is he's still there.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
So we're learning a lot.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Is there any other utterance that you could make out, Barbara, No,
I couldn't.
Speaker 7 (23:44):
And you don't see a gun in the video. If
he is showing one or has previously shown one to them,
that is not obvious in the video. But because of
the way that Libby is trying to make this recording
without him being aware that she's making the recording, her
phone is in her hand and she's motioning with that hand,
(24:06):
and so a lot of times when the phone kind
of comes up and shows the bridge, scene before she
moves her hand back down. The man is obscured behind Abby,
and so you don't really have a lot of great
video of him, even though that video is forty two
seconds long. It's really only bits of that video that
(24:30):
show him at all. And several of the times that
the camera comes back up, Libby or Abby rather is
completely blocking him from view. But he definitely during the
course of that video makes up a lot of ground.
Whereas he's further away from the girls at the beginning
of the video, by the end of the video, he
is caught up and is much much closer, within a
(24:51):
few feet of the girls, so.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Is absolutely pursuing them. When does the video audio end?
What's the last thing you hear?
Speaker 7 (25:01):
You hear the rustling of he says down the hill,
and then it appears that they start to go down
that hill in that area where those leaves were disturbed,
and that's when it gets sort of staticky. You hear
a bunch of other noise, and then it just cuts out,
and that's the end of the video.
Speaker 6 (25:20):
And that.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Was the end.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
That's the last known utterances of those two little girls.
That was near the end of their lives, before they
were forced to wade across that creek, strip out in
the open, and then their throats were slashed. Cheryl McCollum,
(25:43):
you've said all along that you thought the had a
knife or a gun in his pocket or else.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Why walk that way?
Speaker 3 (25:51):
He walked with his hands stuck in his pockets all
the way down that bridge.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Correct.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
Not only do I think he had a weapon, I
think he brandished it. I think that's how he gained
control of the two of them without them screaming. I
think that's why they did exactly what he said, because
you know, they probably believed if we do what he
tells us to do, he won't hurt us. But if
you look at him on that bridge, and I've been
at that bridge, my sister went on that bridge, there's
(26:17):
no way you don't have your hands out, just making
sure you keep your balance because there is no rain,
right and if you were to sor I mean.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
He's sixty feet up in the air, you're up there
with the treetops.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Philip Dubay joining me, high profile lawyer out of LA
He is with the Public Defender's Office.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
That means he's tried a lot of cases, a lot
of cases that he wanted to try, and a lot
of cases, and Judge shoved down his throat that he
had to try.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Philip, do bay.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
I want to quickly touch on the legal aspect, the
legal argument the defense is making that they do not
want this tape enhanced.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
I'm sure they don't, Philip. Do they have a leg
to stand on?
Speaker 7 (26:59):
No, they don't.
Speaker 11 (27:00):
I mean, let's be honest here. The evidence against mister
Allen is compelling. I'll give you that. I'll give everybody
involved in the prosecution that. But to be fair, I
think their only hope at this point is to chip
away at what the state's got and try to find
legal grounds to exclude it all. And I will tell you, Nancy,
there is no scientific reliability on voice comparison, on voice analysis,
(27:21):
and I don't believe it has ever been held to
be scientifically reliable by the US Supreme Court the new
process Deby.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
Did I ask you about making a voice comparison?
Speaker 2 (27:32):
No?
Speaker 3 (27:32):
I did not.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
I know you want to talk about it because that
behooves the defense. But what I'm asking you is about
the enhancement. The defense does not want the jury to
hear an enhance diversion I mean Barbara McDonald, for Pete's sake,
had to close their eyes and straining to hear. But
if they enhance that audio video, it may be very
(27:54):
very clear, and the defense doesn't want that.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Now, if this were you, how would you fight that enhancement?
Speaker 11 (28:00):
Would say that a lacks foundation and authentication that even
if it is enhanced. You don't have anybody coming into
churd to say that that enhanced version sounds just like
Richard Allen, Who do you really have? Who are they
going to put on to do that comparison? And you know,
the standard is not that the recording is good enough
passes muster. You know, it's you know, good enough for me.
(28:22):
That's not the standard. It has to be somehow scientifically
reliable because jury's put a lot of value, they put
a lot of importance on this type of evidence because
it comes through the court as having this imperimeter, if
you will, of gospel truth. So unless and untwol you
have some scientific foundation for it, an authentication, it absolutely
(28:43):
should be excluded from evidence.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 8 (28:56):
Describing a photo of Libyan Abbey laying less than five
feet apart, their feet angled towards each other. Fourteen year
old Libby is nude, her skin pale as porcelain, stained
with blood on her hands, thigh, chest, throat, and face.
She's covered with twigs which criss crossed at her throat
and one heavy bough that lay lengthwise across her left side.
Thirteen year old Abbey is laying to Libby's right. She
(29:17):
is dressed in some of Libby's clothing as well as
her own. Sergeant Jason Page says her genes appear damp.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Joining me an all star panel to make sense of
what we are learning and to dissect and analyze the evidence, which.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Is crucial in this case.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Barbara McDonnell with me, investigative reporter, documentary producer there in Delphi.
This is critical, Barbara, Now, isn't it true that one
of the girls has dried blood running horizont Think of
her standing up. She has dried blood running from the
(29:53):
inner thigh horizontally across her leg to the outer thigh.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Explain, Yeah, so in the.
Speaker 7 (30:01):
Photo you definitely saw an area on Libby's right thigh
where it looked like there were six or eight drops
of blood. That's how the crime scene investigator described them
as being drops of blood. And then travel marks is
how he worded it, moving from the inner thigh to
the outer thigh, making straight lines across her thigh. There
(30:26):
were about six or eight of them, as I said,
and several of the reporters that I was sitting with,
we were trying to imagine what position Libby would have
been in when those marks were made, how that would
have been done. Again, it was described as drops of
blood with travel marks traveling to the outside of her thigh.
(30:46):
Each of those travel marks maybe five or six inches
in length.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
That is so significant.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Barbara, guys, Barbara McDonald just straight out of the court room,
and what a day it has been, and that Delphi
Murderer's trial. Let's analyze what Barbara has just told us.
Josct Morgan, clearly, this is a problem for the defense.
The bodies were staged because that blood, by the rules
(31:16):
of gravity, did not run horizontally.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Across her leg.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
She had to be in a position, possibly on her side,
where the blood dropped on her and then it ran down,
and then her body was turned back over and the
blood dried.
Speaker 10 (31:33):
And that interesting one, two, three, four, five. What if
it's a point of transfer where the fingertips are super
saturated with blood. You place your hand on the thigh,
perhaps to manipulate the thigh in some way, and then
you go to move the body in this idea of posing,
and of course gravity is going to take over and
(31:54):
it's going to kind of arc away from the initial
point where you touched.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
No, because these were not transfer from fingers. These were drops.
Speaker 10 (32:03):
Blood, right, I understand that there were drops. So if
you have, like I said, if the fingertips are super
saturated with blood, and even if he's just holding over
like this, you're going to get this falling away, and
it won't fall away much. It's not going to get
He's not. What I'm saying is he's in very close
proximity to it. Maybe they are transfers, maybe they didn't
read them correctly, but we know that there's a robust
(32:25):
amount of blood, so much so that it would track
away when you move the body. It's not just merely
merely a smudge. This is a robust droplet of blood,
and then you would have to have sufficient energy to
get this thing to move. I think that it goes
probably to the manipulation of the body, maybe into posing.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
Got it.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Barbin McDonald also there were a lot of theories at
the beginning that the girls were killed somewhere else and
then their bodies dumped here. As a matter of fact,
isn't it true, Barbara, that one of the defens's theory,
they've got to scatter shot theory. You like your shoot
the shotgun shells go, the buckshot goes everywhere. That's impossible
(33:06):
because the defense theory is that they were killed somewhere else,
brought by there and dumped And that timeline ascertation would
exclude the defendant if they were killed elsewhere and brought back,
because he can establish his whereabouts later on. So they
want to be able to establish the girls were killed
elsewhere and then brought back, possibly even the next day.
(33:28):
But at the beginning, when the bodies were first found,
there's a lot of speculation the same was quote pristine, No,
the same was not pristine.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Explained, that's right.
Speaker 7 (33:40):
There were two very large areas of blood on the
ground away from the bodies. About two feet from the
feet of Abbey and Libby was the largest pool of
blood that the crime scene investigator described as the ground
still being saturated two and three days after the murders.
(34:00):
There was another area where there was a tree to
the right of Abigail, maybe two or three feet from
her body. That's the tree that had the so called
f mark on it. We found out that there were
two areas of blood on that tree, and then just
on the opposite side of the tree from where the
bodies were found was another pool of blood on the ground.
(34:25):
And then as you described, there was a lot of
blood on Libby's body. She had blood on her hands,
she had blood on her chest and her face. She
had blood on her thighs, She had blood on her
right heel and the back of her right calf. Abigail
mostly the blood was in the area of her injury
(34:47):
to her neck. Her hands were clean, her feet had
no blood on them, and it didn't appear that there
was much blood on the front of the clothing that
Abigail was wearing. When they rolled her over. They did
see a lot of blood on the back of her sweatshirt,
and there was another pool of blood under her body.
That's also where they found that second Nike shoe. It
(35:09):
was under Abigail, and then under that shoe was Libby's
cell phone. They described the area where the shoe and
the phone were as being behind the small of her back.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
What about the phone? Where was the phone? War or
the phone that made.
Speaker 7 (35:23):
This was right under that shoe, and it was face
up and it had a lot of condensation. They said
on the cover. It was obscured by leaves. In the
first image when they removed the shoe, I struggled to
see the phone in that photograph. They moved the leaves
away and then you could see the phone. They also
flipped it over. It had a Harry Potter purple cover
(35:45):
on the phone with the Gryffindor logo or crest on
the back of it. I'm not a fan of the
Harry Potter series, but it was something to do with
the Gryffindor on the back of her phone.
Speaker 5 (35:56):
Former Indiana State Police crime scene investigator Dwayne Donsman testified
finding the one piece of evidence linking Richard Allen to
the crime scene, the unspent bullet that prosecutors say has
been cycled through the same six hour model P three
thirty six forty caliber handgun that Alan owned. Dotsman says
he kept seeing a glitter in the leaves near the
bodies and that's where he found the forty caliber cartridge.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Amazing that he thought it was glitter, something shiny and sparkly. Well,
it was a treasure because it's the only hard evidence
the state has right now. Of course, the evidence has
just started. What a day it has been in that
Delphi trial courtroom. To Cheryl McCollum joining me, Cold Case
(36:38):
Investigative Research Institute founder, Cheryl, what about the bullet that
he first thought was glitter in the leaves?
Speaker 4 (36:45):
I think the position is critical when you eject that bullet,
when you rack it and it's unstinted, it goes a
little backwards to the right a couple of feet. If
it is between the two bodies, that means it was
aimed at one of them. So when you think about
trying to invote fear, you're clearly trying to make one
(37:06):
of the victims petrified. That takes you to get shot,
but you've got a second one having to watch that.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Philip Dubay joining me, high profile lawyer, a real trial attorney.
He doesn't sit back and read depots in an office.
He's in the courtroom fighting it out. Philip Dubay, this
is very powerful evidence because you know markings on bullets.
It's irrefutable it's like a fingerprint. So if this bullet
(37:33):
came from his gun, he's up the.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Creek without a paddle.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Because the other suspects, and yes, there were other pois
persons of interest which they will use to their benefit,
but none of them had this gun.
Speaker 11 (37:46):
I don't see why it's relevant, to be honest with you,
because these girls weren't shot. It would be one thing
if they found a bullet launched in their ribcage or
they found spend shellcasings at the scene. Let's be honest here,
an unspent shewcasing does not a murder. At most, it
prove's presence, that's it. And who's to say that that
show wasn't there before the girls were brought there? So
(38:08):
I don't know how they're going to temporally prove his
connection to the dropping of that bullet, that case thing
at or near the time of the actual double homicide.
So therefore, I think it's temporally and legally irrelevant.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Well that's why Philip Dobay wins all of his cases
because he said that with an absolute straight face. And
actually that's a legitimate argument. How do I know that
Richard Allen hadn't been in those woods before hunting or
shooting or with his gun. This is a single most
critical piece of evidence as of yet, as of tonight,
(38:46):
because it is linking him directly to that scene.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
But it's going to have to be argued that it
must be.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Taken in light of all the other circumstances in order
for a state to get a conviction in this case.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
We wait as just as unfolds, and.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Reminder we are live at the courthouse bringing you the
latest from the Delphi murderers trial trial. We have all
waited on literally for years for justice for Abbey and Libby,
and now we stop to remember a hero police officer
Logan Medlock, London, p D Kentucky, just twenty six, killed
(39:26):
by a drunk driver in the line of duty, Survived
by a grieving widow, Courtney and a son Brantley, American
hero officer Logan Medlock. Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend.
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
The Delphi double murder suspect bows his head and praise
before photos of Little Abbey thirteen and Liberty fourteen are
displayed before the girrars the girls nude, Simmy Clyde and murdered.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
being with us.
Speaker 4 (00:30):
When did you get into town? I mean it's picturesque,
it's beautiful. Everybody's super friendly.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
You're talking about Delphi, Indiana.
Speaker 5 (00:39):
It was supposed to be a walk in the wood
shared by two friends, Abby Williams and Lebby Jerman. Went
to this hiking trail on your Delphi's monin high Bridge.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
But there's no way you sign that bridge if you're
not from there.
Speaker 5 (00:50):
When the girls didn't return to the spot where they
were supposed to be picked up, their families knew something
was wrong.
Speaker 6 (00:55):
They thought maybe the girls were hurt.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
That bridge is treacherous, and they never thought they would
hear that the girls were murdered.
Speaker 5 (01:05):
Carol County Shriff's Deputy Darien gen Coola, the first deputy
to arrive at the scene, said he was called to
the area of Deer Creek because they had been told
members of a search party found something, possibly bodies. Gen
Coola says there were multiple people in the area when
he saw a multi colored shirt and a shoe in
the water. He said when he first saw the bodies
of Abbey and Libby, one was new, the other was clothed.
(01:25):
Gencola said he did not perform life saving measures on
the girls because it was apparent they were deceased.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Joining us an investigative reporter who has been there in
the courtroom, Barbara McDonald joining us from Delphi. A documentary
producer and co host of Down the Hill podcast. Barbara,
thank you so much for being with us. Barbara, so
many bombshells in that courtroom. I want to start with
(01:55):
the fact that now we know why the girls clothes
clothing was soaked, and yesterday, Barbara, I couldn't figure out
why did one person say a T shirt in a tree?
Now I know, please explain.
Speaker 7 (02:12):
Yeah. So, we heard from several of the crime scene
investigators who arrived and described finding the clothing of the
girls in the creek. There were about three different areas
where the clothing was in the creek, and two of
those areas the clothing was sort of stuck on debris
in the creek.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
The hoodie, the gray hoodie.
Speaker 7 (02:34):
That Abby had been wearing that had belonged to Kelsey Jerman.
We saw Abby wearing that in that snapchat image that
Libby posted of the girls before their abduction that was
submerged in the creek. All of the clothing that was
collected from the creek was inside out, including Abby's jeans,
Libby's tied eye T shirt, that gray hoodie, two socks,
(02:59):
one black pink, and then we heard that the girls
were found. Libby was completely nude and Abby was wearing
Libby's jeans and hoodie along with a gray sports Spra
that we believe belonged to Abby. And Abby also had
her shoes on when she was found those converse sneakers
(03:22):
we saw in that same snapchat image Nancy.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
And joining us from the courthouse there in Delphi. Joining
us from Delphi is Barbara MacDonald. I want to talk
about the significance Barbara, as to why the girls' clothes
were soaked. Why when their bodies were found well after
the murders, their clothing was still soaked. Were they forced
(03:48):
to wade across the creek?
Speaker 8 (03:50):
That is the.
Speaker 7 (03:51):
Theory from the state that Richard allen forced these girls
off the bridge down the hill to a secluded area
on the south side of the creek, but then was
interrupted during that attack, that he intended to have his
way with these girls down at the bottom of the hill,
but was interrupted and then forced them to cross the
(04:13):
creek over onto Ron Logan's property where they were killed.
At the scene where they were found, the images that
we found also showed large amounts of blood at that scene.
But the crime scene investigators described the clothing that Abby
was wearing, all of it, the hoodie, the jeans, as
well as her shoes, all being damp or wet to
(04:35):
the touch, and they said it could not have come
from condensation, It could not have come from being out
in the elements overnight. That it definitely was from the creek.
They also had a lot of that silt and that
sort of dirt that's in the creek and debris on
their clothing as well as for Abby, even though she
was found wearing her shoes, they did show some images
(04:59):
of her feet at her shoes had been removed, her
feet were dirty, had some of that filthy sort of
sandy dirt on her feet as well as some leaf debris,
So it certainly appears that at some point Abbey's shoes
were off and then put back on her.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
I know this may seem obsessive, Barbera, but if you
don't mind, I'd like to hear what you said again
regarding the discovery of the clothes, their condition, who was wearing,
what where the clothes were, and then I'm going to
go forward to the actual scene, the blood soaked earth,
and my theory that the scene was staged.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Let's start with the clothes again.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
If you don't mind, Barbara, please go ahead.
Speaker 9 (05:40):
No, not at all.
Speaker 7 (05:41):
So the clothing items that were found in the creek,
there were three different areas where the clothing was found,
all within the same general area, but perhaps about ten
feet apart each of those three areas. Two of the
areas that clothing was actually stuck on debris and was
visible from the surface of the water. The gray hoodie
(06:01):
that you see Abby wearing right there in that image
was found submerged in the creek. All of the clothing
that was in the creek was inside out, and all
of those items were wet. All of those items had
that silty sandy debris from the creek is how the
crime scene investigator described it, as well as some leaf material.
(06:24):
And then, as I mentioned, Libby or Abby's feet rather
under her shoes was dirty. There was signs that she
had taken the shoes off at some point, or that
someone had, and she had walked perhaps a little ways
without any shoes on her feet, and then the shoes
were put back on. I could only see one of
her shoes in the images shown in court yesterday. That
(06:46):
shoe was not tied and the tongue appeared to be
pulled out, as if you were taking it off or
putting it back on your foot.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
To Cheryl McCollum, the director of the Cold Case Research
Institute and star of the Zone seven podcast, Cheryl, the picture,
the picture in my mind.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Of these clothes.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Covered in dirt, the one shoe, the Nike shoe, with
the clothes in the creek. You know, Cheryl, I remember
my first car jack murder case. I remember it like
I tried it yesterday. But the image that almost not
quite choked me up in front of the jury was
(07:33):
a neighbor ran out. The victim was a teen boy
and he was shot in his front his mom's front
yard where he lived and the perp took off in
the car, and the neighbor, hearing a commotion, ran out
with a pillow off of his own bed and.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Went and put it under the victim's head. The victim
was already dead. He was shot in my head.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
But when I saw the crime seen photo for the
first time, I hadn't investigated it yet.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
I'm like, why is the victim of a pillow under
his head in the driveway. And then I went and
interviewed the.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Neighbor and I found out that poignant moment where the
victim is.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Dead and he's putting his head on a pillow in
the driveway.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
That photo. And I know he's seen a lot of
horrific photos in the courtroom over the last two days
of the victims. But the image Cheryl McCollum of these
little girls clothes having been forced to strip, wet and
filthy in the creek.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Is so upsetting and poignant to me.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I can't really identify how wrong this is, Cheryl Nancy.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
What it says to me is time was taken, more
time than maybe they originally salt. In a thing like this,
It's hard to take wet clothes off, much less put
them back on. If anybody's ever fallen into water and
tried to take what gen golf, it's tough, but to
turn back around and try to put them back on,
(09:11):
you would have to struggle. Even if those genes were
a little too big for you. The fact that they
were unbuttoned and unzipped tells me Abby didn't hide that way.
You know, I think that was done again at the
murder scene. So if you take it step by step
the way Barbara has laid this out so beautifully, you
(09:32):
can see again, like we talked about yesterday, these breadcrumbs
of evidence, where you know where it started, you know
where it ended, and you know the time that it took.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Joseph Scott Morgan joining me, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,
author of Blood Beneath My Feet on amazon As, started
a hitting new series, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan
Joe Scott.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
We keep referring to the fact that.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Libby was nude and Abby had on Libby's clothing. Well,
at some point Abby was nude too. Abby was forced
to strip as well. So I'm going to get to
the fact that we don't have any DNA from the perp,
the alleged purp yet. But Joe Scott, I would like
you to help me analyze what Barbara has told us,
(10:24):
because I am telling you in every sentence that she conveyed,
which has just come out in the courtroom, there is
probitive value.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Each thing proves something to me. The fact that the.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Clothing was apart but in three separate areas, the fact
that some of it was down the stream. Obviously he
was trying to get rid of the clothing by throwing it.
Or did the girl strip there and then forced to
a secluded area. We know that they were barefoot. Why
were they barefoot? We know that their clothing was still
(10:57):
soaked by the time their bodies were found.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Tell me what this tells you, Joe Scott.
Speaker 10 (11:04):
I think that the idea of the clothing being separated
out over an area, this goes to a pattern with
this fellow. Let me expand on that. I think that
for each item that's there, there's a potential he was
throwing these items in front of these children, one by
one into the creek. Imagine how menacing that is when
(11:25):
you begin to think about your watching these young girls
being humiliated relative to exposure of their bodies to this
creepy guy that's out there in the woods, not to
mention one another out in the open, and all the
while it's a matter of control. He has a pattern
of menacing Nancy. And if we could bring the camera
(11:47):
back up, let me show you something else here, the
idea that they had a live forty caliber round at
the scene that had been cycled through a weapon. Again,
that goes to menacing. You're going to push these girls
to do whatever you want them to do, and then afterwards, afterwards,
(12:08):
you're going to redress bodies. So you've got all these
bits of evidence that are spread about. I don't think
that these are random in any way. I think they
were used to leverage these girls doing whatever he wanted
to do. People talk about how it was an unusually
warm day. Let me tell you what what and warm
at water? That water will get your attention. That time
of year up there, it's freezing. So you talk about
(12:31):
debasing and humiliating, that's only a part of it.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Doctor Bethany Marshall with US, renowned psycho analyst joining us
out of la author of deal Breaker. You can see
her on Peacock or find her at Doctor Bethany Marshall
dot com Doctor Bethany, two thoughts.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
You know, a gun makes a big man little and
a little man.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Big, and that's just what he was doing. As Joe
Scott said, he was anacing. But think about it, doctor Bethany.
Humiliating these two prepubescent girls one thirteen, one's fourteen, I
mean they look.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Like little girls.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Humiliating them by making them strip a in front of
a guy, a grown man they hardly know the pharmacy
tic for Pete's sake, and out in public in the.
Speaker 6 (13:16):
Woods, Nancy, I can imagine these port little girls screaming
and crying and just so distraught, Nancy. Where this all
begins for me? And I love Joe Scott. Morgan's use
of the word menacing is when he says down the
Hill that if you listen to his tone of voice,
it's dripping with contempt hatred. You are two bad little girls.
Speaker 7 (13:38):
You belong to me.
Speaker 6 (13:39):
If anybody watching this program has ever been an abuse
of relationship, they will recognize that tone of voice. He
makes them wade through the river. I do agree with
the panel he is trying to have control over them
in every way possible, but also to degrade to human
(14:00):
miliate and to force them into sexual submission is really
behind a lot of these crimes. And in terms of
throwing the clothing in the creek, he was wanting.
Speaker 9 (14:08):
To scare them.
Speaker 6 (14:09):
It's like, don't run away, your clothing is not here anymore.
And the fact that Nancy he put the clothing back on,
it was like he was preserving the bodies to come
back later so he could rape them again.
Speaker 9 (14:21):
Richard Allen's defense team claims the audio and video clips
found on Libby German's phone that they receive from the
state have been enhanced and the sounds have been put
on a loop repeating a phrase spoken by either Libby
or Abby, as well as an audio clip of a
man speaking. The defense claims those enhancements are investigatory tools
and that interpreting the words and sounds on the enhanced
(14:43):
video requires a completely subjective analysis.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
I bet they are trying to get that audio suppressed.
Now we know why.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Joining me from Delphi, Barbara McDonald, who hasn't missed a
word of testimony, Barbara McDonald. Isn't it true that when
the audio is enhanced, because remember Libby is walking along
on gravel.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Then you can't. The wind is blowing.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
She's out there in the woods coming down off that
trestle bridge, which is really high up. If you take
a good look at it, it's up there with treetops.
It's very high up.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
We visited it.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
It's way up there. So she's walking along the gravel
off this trestle bridge. If you enhance that audio, multiple
ear witnesses state that you hear one of the girls
saying words to the effect of does he have a
gun or gun?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
He's still there? Or is he still there?
Speaker 1 (15:48):
That's why they don't.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
Want it enhanced.
Speaker 7 (15:52):
I listened to that video several times, Nancy and I
really struggled to make out what exactly being said. In
addition to the gravel and the wind that you mentioned,
Abby or rather Libby, when she's making that video, is
moving her phone up and down almost like this, and
so you don't have one steady shot of the man.
(16:15):
You definitely see at the beginning of the video that
he is further behind Abby. Abby is looking down at
the railroad ties. We all know it's a very treacherous
bridge to cross, and you need to pay attention to
where you're putting your feet, and she appears to be
doing that to me, it sounded like she was asking
Libby if he's still there, if he's still behind her,
(16:38):
And towards the end of the video, he absolutely makes
up much of that ground and is much closer to
her at the end of the video than he is
at the beginning of that forty two second video. The
video ends right after he tells them down the hill.
We did hear testimony and saw pictures of a slide
(16:58):
area where the leaves were disturbed at the south end
of that bridge. Going down that hill, it is very steep.
I have walked that area myself. I went down on
my butt, So you could imagine that perhaps the girls
did the same thing.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Would that disturbance of the leaves, Barbara MacDonald be consistent
with the girls going down on that side and then
being forced to weigh across the creek and their bodies
being found on the other side.
Speaker 7 (17:24):
Yeah, So there were two hills they would have gone down.
The first part of the hill was described as perhaps
fifteen or twenty feet down, and then there's a gravel
driveway that's a private driveway belonging to one of the
homeowners on that south side of the creek, and then
there's another hill also about fifteen or twenty feet that
(17:45):
they would have gone down to be in what was
described as sort of a floodplain area closer to the creek,
and the state's theory is that that's where Richard Allen
was intending to have his way with these girls. Those
are the prosecutor words from his opening statement, and that
he was interrupted there perhaps by that homeowner who would
(18:08):
have been driving along that private drive about three point
thirty that afternoon, and then therefore crossed the creek with
the girls onto Ron Logan's property where they were killed.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Orba McDonald, tell me again your impressions of what you
could hear.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Did you hear the enhanced version or not.
Speaker 7 (18:29):
I don't believe I heard the enhanced version. I heard
the original version. You could make out the down the
hill spoken by the man. There is only one man
in the video that I saw that forty two second video.
But I really struggled to hear what I believe Abby
says to Libby about is he still there. I really
(18:51):
listened for the word gun. I even closed my eyes
and listened to the video a couple of times, trying
to really make out what was spoken, and it is
just not very clear. Certainly wasn't clear to me. I
think it is open to interpretation, which is why I
think the defense wants the jury to be able to
(19:11):
hear those words and make up their own mind about.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
What is said.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
My question is, Barbara, according to others that have heard
the audio, they can make out the word gun and
words to the effect of he has a gun?
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Does he have a gun?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
It's really hard to make it out other than hearing
what you believe you heard to be is he still
there or he is still there?
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Could you hear the.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Girl speaking at all? Other than that one comment?
Speaker 7 (19:53):
You hear Libby saying something to the man. It sounds
like at some point before the video begin he gave
them some sort of instructions and she is standing there
at the end of the bridge saying there's no place
to go, there's no path, and that's when he says,
down the hill, and that's right as you can hear
(20:15):
the rustling of them perhaps beginning that descent down the hill,
and that's when the video cuts out and you don't
see or hear anything else.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Okay, So you, Barbara, were able to make out. We
usually hear with the naked eye, but with the naked
ear un enhanced, you hear is it Libby or I'd
be saying there's no path, there's no place to go.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Who do you think it's Libby saying that? And then
after that you hear the guy on the bridge say
down the hill?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
And then Barbara, Yes, the state is bringing in evidence
that there were disturbed beliefs down the hill.
Speaker 7 (20:56):
Yes, And I had heard that previously from a member
of Libby's family who searched that south end of the
bridge that he described seeing an area that he said
looked to him like somebody slid on their butt down
the hill. And that's sort of how the crime scene
investigators described it. It would have been very difficult to
(21:16):
walk down that hill, especially if you were scared or
being forced or in a rush. When I went down
that hill, it was very steep, very slippery because of
all the leaves that are in the area, and I
scooted it on my bottom down most of that hill.
Once you get closer to the bottom, it does even
out a bit before you get to that gravel driveway.
(21:40):
But then there's another hill also about fifteen or twenty
feet down on the other side of that gravel driveway
to get down to the area near the creek.
Speaker 9 (21:50):
Richard Allen's defense team foulews emotion, asking the judge to
prevent the jury from seeing or hearing the recordings that
were turned over to the defense. The defense team claimed
the audio and video the state turned over to them
has been manipulated by enhancing the audio and looping the recording.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
We are at the courthouse bringing you the latest as
the Delphi murderers trial goes on. And with me from
Delphi is Barbara McDonald. To the rest of the panel.
I'll bring you right in, but I want to get
all the facts from her.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Barbara, the defense is trying so hard to keep this
video and audio away from the jury, and now we
know why. The more I question you, the more I learn.
Now you're telling me that you hear Libby stating, as
he's obviously holding them a gunpoint from what others say
(22:45):
they hear reference to a gun on the audio telling
them to go down into the woods off the trestle bridge.
Libby says there's no place to go, there's no path,
and he says down the hill now let's connect this.
Then the state is introducing evidence where the leaves are disturbed.
Do you want the very same path and you ended
up on your rear end going down on your rear end.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
We then know they confronted the creek and then.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
For whatever reason, they were forced to wade across the creek,
the clothes completely soaked. I want to ask you to
think back, is there anything else that you could make
out on that audio or video, anything at all? Because
I've already learned they're saying there's no place to go,
there's no path, the possibility that they are saying he's
(23:33):
got a gun them stating is he's still there.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
So we're learning a lot.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Is there any other utterance that you could make out, Barbara, No,
I couldn't.
Speaker 7 (23:44):
And you don't see a gun in the video. If
he is showing one or has previously shown one to them,
that is not obvious in the video. But because of
the way that Libby is trying to make this recording
without him being aware that she's making the recording, her
phone is in her hand and she's motioning with that hand,
(24:06):
and so a lot of times when the phone kind
of comes up and shows the bridge, scene before she
moves her hand back down. The man is obscured behind Abby,
and so you don't really have a lot of great
video of him, even though that video is forty two
seconds long. It's really only bits of that video that
(24:30):
show him at all. And several of the times that
the camera comes back up, Libby or Abby rather is
completely blocking him from view. But he definitely during the
course of that video makes up a lot of ground.
Whereas he's further away from the girls at the beginning
of the video, by the end of the video, he
is caught up and is much much closer, within a
(24:51):
few feet of the girls, so.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Is absolutely pursuing them. When does the video audio end?
What's the last thing you hear?
Speaker 7 (25:01):
You hear the rustling of he says down the hill,
and then it appears that they start to go down
that hill in that area where those leaves were disturbed,
and that's when it gets sort of staticky. You hear
a bunch of other noise, and then it just cuts out,
and that's the end of the video.
Speaker 6 (25:20):
And that.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Was the end.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
That's the last known utterances of those two little girls.
That was near the end of their lives, before they
were forced to wade across that creek, strip out in
the open, and then their throats were slashed. Cheryl McCollum,
(25:43):
you've said all along that you thought the had a
knife or a gun in his pocket or else.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Why walk that way?
Speaker 3 (25:51):
He walked with his hands stuck in his pockets all
the way down that bridge.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Correct.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
Not only do I think he had a weapon, I
think he brandished it. I think that's how he gained
control of the two of them without them screaming. I
think that's why they did exactly what he said, because
you know, they probably believed if we do what he
tells us to do, he won't hurt us. But if
you look at him on that bridge, and I've been
at that bridge, my sister went on that bridge, there's
(26:17):
no way you don't have your hands out, just making
sure you keep your balance because there is no rain,
right and if you were to sor I mean.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
He's sixty feet up in the air, you're up there
with the treetops.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Philip Dubay joining me, high profile lawyer out of LA
He is with the Public Defender's Office.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
That means he's tried a lot of cases, a lot
of cases that he wanted to try, and a lot
of cases, and Judge shoved down his throat that he
had to try.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Philip, do bay.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
I want to quickly touch on the legal aspect, the
legal argument the defense is making that they do not
want this tape enhanced.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
I'm sure they don't, Philip. Do they have a leg
to stand on?
Speaker 7 (26:59):
No, they don't.
Speaker 11 (27:00):
I mean, let's be honest here. The evidence against mister
Allen is compelling. I'll give you that. I'll give everybody
involved in the prosecution that. But to be fair, I
think their only hope at this point is to chip
away at what the state's got and try to find
legal grounds to exclude it all. And I will tell you, Nancy,
there is no scientific reliability on voice comparison, on voice analysis,
(27:21):
and I don't believe it has ever been held to
be scientifically reliable by the US Supreme Court the new
process Deby.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
Did I ask you about making a voice comparison?
Speaker 2 (27:32):
No?
Speaker 3 (27:32):
I did not.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
I know you want to talk about it because that
behooves the defense. But what I'm asking you is about
the enhancement. The defense does not want the jury to
hear an enhance diversion I mean Barbara McDonald, for Pete's sake,
had to close their eyes and straining to hear. But
if they enhance that audio video, it may be very
(27:54):
very clear, and the defense doesn't want that.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Now, if this were you, how would you fight that enhancement?
Speaker 11 (28:00):
Would say that a lacks foundation and authentication that even
if it is enhanced. You don't have anybody coming into
churd to say that that enhanced version sounds just like
Richard Allen, Who do you really have? Who are they
going to put on to do that comparison? And you know,
the standard is not that the recording is good enough
passes muster. You know, it's you know, good enough for me.
(28:22):
That's not the standard. It has to be somehow scientifically
reliable because jury's put a lot of value, they put
a lot of importance on this type of evidence because
it comes through the court as having this imperimeter, if
you will, of gospel truth. So unless and untwol you
have some scientific foundation for it, an authentication, it absolutely
(28:43):
should be excluded from evidence.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 8 (28:56):
Describing a photo of Libyan Abbey laying less than five
feet apart, their feet angled towards each other. Fourteen year
old Libby is nude, her skin pale as porcelain, stained
with blood on her hands, thigh, chest, throat, and face.
She's covered with twigs which criss crossed at her throat
and one heavy bough that lay lengthwise across her left side.
Thirteen year old Abbey is laying to Libby's right. She
(29:17):
is dressed in some of Libby's clothing as well as
her own. Sergeant Jason Page says her genes appear damp.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Joining me an all star panel to make sense of
what we are learning and to dissect and analyze the evidence, which.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Is crucial in this case.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Barbara McDonnell with me, investigative reporter, documentary producer there in Delphi.
This is critical, Barbara, Now, isn't it true that one
of the girls has dried blood running horizont Think of
her standing up. She has dried blood running from the
(29:53):
inner thigh horizontally across her leg to the outer thigh.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Explain, Yeah, so in the.
Speaker 7 (30:01):
Photo you definitely saw an area on Libby's right thigh
where it looked like there were six or eight drops
of blood. That's how the crime scene investigator described them
as being drops of blood. And then travel marks is
how he worded it, moving from the inner thigh to
the outer thigh, making straight lines across her thigh. There
(30:26):
were about six or eight of them, as I said,
and several of the reporters that I was sitting with,
we were trying to imagine what position Libby would have
been in when those marks were made, how that would
have been done. Again, it was described as drops of
blood with travel marks traveling to the outside of her thigh.
(30:46):
Each of those travel marks maybe five or six inches
in length.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
That is so significant.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Barbara, guys, Barbara McDonald just straight out of the court room,
and what a day it has been, and that Delphi
Murderer's trial. Let's analyze what Barbara has just told us.
Josct Morgan, clearly, this is a problem for the defense.
The bodies were staged because that blood, by the rules
(31:16):
of gravity, did not run horizontally.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Across her leg.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
She had to be in a position, possibly on her side,
where the blood dropped on her and then it ran down,
and then her body was turned back over and the
blood dried.
Speaker 10 (31:33):
And that interesting one, two, three, four, five. What if
it's a point of transfer where the fingertips are super
saturated with blood. You place your hand on the thigh,
perhaps to manipulate the thigh in some way, and then
you go to move the body in this idea of posing,
and of course gravity is going to take over and
(31:54):
it's going to kind of arc away from the initial
point where you touched.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
No, because these were not transfer from fingers. These were drops.
Speaker 10 (32:03):
Blood, right, I understand that there were drops. So if
you have, like I said, if the fingertips are super
saturated with blood, and even if he's just holding over
like this, you're going to get this falling away, and
it won't fall away much. It's not going to get
He's not. What I'm saying is he's in very close
proximity to it. Maybe they are transfers, maybe they didn't
read them correctly, but we know that there's a robust
(32:25):
amount of blood, so much so that it would track
away when you move the body. It's not just merely
merely a smudge. This is a robust droplet of blood,
and then you would have to have sufficient energy to
get this thing to move. I think that it goes
probably to the manipulation of the body, maybe into posing.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
Got it.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Barbin McDonald also there were a lot of theories at
the beginning that the girls were killed somewhere else and
then their bodies dumped here. As a matter of fact,
isn't it true, Barbara, that one of the defens's theory,
they've got to scatter shot theory. You like your shoot
the shotgun shells go, the buckshot goes everywhere. That's impossible
(33:06):
because the defense theory is that they were killed somewhere else,
brought by there and dumped And that timeline ascertation would
exclude the defendant if they were killed elsewhere and brought back,
because he can establish his whereabouts later on. So they
want to be able to establish the girls were killed
elsewhere and then brought back, possibly even the next day.
(33:28):
But at the beginning, when the bodies were first found,
there's a lot of speculation the same was quote pristine, No,
the same was not pristine.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Explained, that's right.
Speaker 7 (33:40):
There were two very large areas of blood on the
ground away from the bodies. About two feet from the
feet of Abbey and Libby was the largest pool of
blood that the crime scene investigator described as the ground
still being saturated two and three days after the murders.
(34:00):
There was another area where there was a tree to
the right of Abigail, maybe two or three feet from
her body. That's the tree that had the so called
f mark on it. We found out that there were
two areas of blood on that tree, and then just
on the opposite side of the tree from where the
bodies were found was another pool of blood on the ground.
(34:25):
And then as you described, there was a lot of
blood on Libby's body. She had blood on her hands,
she had blood on her chest and her face. She
had blood on her thighs, She had blood on her
right heel and the back of her right calf. Abigail
mostly the blood was in the area of her injury
(34:47):
to her neck. Her hands were clean, her feet had
no blood on them, and it didn't appear that there
was much blood on the front of the clothing that
Abigail was wearing. When they rolled her over. They did
see a lot of blood on the back of her sweatshirt,
and there was another pool of blood under her body.
That's also where they found that second Nike shoe. It
(35:09):
was under Abigail, and then under that shoe was Libby's
cell phone. They described the area where the shoe and
the phone were as being behind the small of her back.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
What about the phone? Where was the phone? War or
the phone that made.
Speaker 7 (35:23):
This was right under that shoe, and it was face
up and it had a lot of condensation. They said
on the cover. It was obscured by leaves. In the
first image when they removed the shoe, I struggled to
see the phone in that photograph. They moved the leaves
away and then you could see the phone. They also
flipped it over. It had a Harry Potter purple cover
(35:45):
on the phone with the Gryffindor logo or crest on
the back of it. I'm not a fan of the
Harry Potter series, but it was something to do with
the Gryffindor on the back of her phone.
Speaker 5 (35:56):
Former Indiana State Police crime scene investigator Dwayne Donsman testified
finding the one piece of evidence linking Richard Allen to
the crime scene, the unspent bullet that prosecutors say has
been cycled through the same six hour model P three
thirty six forty caliber handgun that Alan owned. Dotsman says
he kept seeing a glitter in the leaves near the
bodies and that's where he found the forty caliber cartridge.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Amazing that he thought it was glitter, something shiny and sparkly. Well,
it was a treasure because it's the only hard evidence
the state has right now. Of course, the evidence has
just started. What a day it has been in that
Delphi trial courtroom. To Cheryl McCollum joining me, Cold Case
(36:38):
Investigative Research Institute founder, Cheryl, what about the bullet that
he first thought was glitter in the leaves?
Speaker 4 (36:45):
I think the position is critical when you eject that bullet,
when you rack it and it's unstinted, it goes a
little backwards to the right a couple of feet. If
it is between the two bodies, that means it was
aimed at one of them. So when you think about
trying to invote fear, you're clearly trying to make one
(37:06):
of the victims petrified. That takes you to get shot,
but you've got a second one having to watch that.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Philip Dubay joining me, high profile lawyer, a real trial attorney.
He doesn't sit back and read depots in an office.
He's in the courtroom fighting it out. Philip Dubay, this
is very powerful evidence because you know markings on bullets.
It's irrefutable it's like a fingerprint. So if this bullet
(37:33):
came from his gun, he's up the.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Creek without a paddle.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Because the other suspects, and yes, there were other pois
persons of interest which they will use to their benefit,
but none of them had this gun.
Speaker 11 (37:46):
I don't see why it's relevant, to be honest with you,
because these girls weren't shot. It would be one thing
if they found a bullet launched in their ribcage or
they found spend shellcasings at the scene. Let's be honest here,
an unspent shewcasing does not a murder. At most, it
prove's presence, that's it. And who's to say that that
show wasn't there before the girls were brought there? So
(38:08):
I don't know how they're going to temporally prove his
connection to the dropping of that bullet, that case thing
at or near the time of the actual double homicide.
So therefore, I think it's temporally and legally irrelevant.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Well that's why Philip Dobay wins all of his cases
because he said that with an absolute straight face. And
actually that's a legitimate argument. How do I know that
Richard Allen hadn't been in those woods before hunting or
shooting or with his gun. This is a single most
critical piece of evidence as of yet, as of tonight,
(38:46):
because it is linking him directly to that scene.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
But it's going to have to be argued that it
must be.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Taken in light of all the other circumstances in order
for a state to get a conviction in this case.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
We wait as just as unfolds, and.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Reminder we are live at the courthouse bringing you the
latest from the Delphi murderers trial trial. We have all
waited on literally for years for justice for Abbey and Libby,
and now we stop to remember a hero police officer
Logan Medlock, London, p D Kentucky, just twenty six, killed
(39:26):
by a drunk driver in the line of duty, Survived
by a grieving widow, Courtney and a son Brantley, American
hero officer Logan Medlock. Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend.
Host
Nancy Grace
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