October 10, 2017 • 51 mins
Det. Tom Fassbender, the lead investigator on the team that convicted Steven Avery for the murder of Teresa Halbach, tells Nancy Grace why Avery shouldn't get a new trial. An appeals court has denied Avery's latest motion. Defense lawyer Hunter Shkolnik, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan & reporter Leigh Egan join in the discussion about the controversial "Making a Murderer" case. Nancy also explores the mysteries surrounding missing and murdered woman in North Carolina. Crime scene investigator Sheryl McCollum, psycho analyst Dr. Bethany Marshall & reporter Bobbi Maddox discuss these cases.
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Climb stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel
one thirty two. Hundreds of thousands of people are calling
for the pardon of a convicted killer after the Netflix
series Making a Murderer exposed possible flaws in the case
that put him behind bars. We have Stephen Avery, and
Making a Murderer tells the story of Stephen Aver. He's
the Wisconsin man who served eighteen years in prison for
(01:59):
rape before exonerated. In two thousand and three. We the
jury find the defendant guilty of only to find himself
in prison again on a murder conviction. In two thousand seven.
Many viewers concluded Avery was framed by authorities who lied
and planted evidence. Stephen Avery is right where he needs
to be in prison. I think he was innocent. Is
(02:22):
innocent unless you've been living in a cave or hiding
under a rock. You know about Netflix? I mean I
do I have to navigate it very carefully, though, because
my twins like to get on there and watch kid shows.
There's a lot more on there than kids shows, I
can tell you that much. But right now I don't
think I know a single soul that doesn't know about
(02:44):
the Netflix so called documentary called Making a Murderer, which
takes thousands and thousands of hours of footage, cuts it
down and suggest that a convicted killer, Stephen Avery, did
not murder a young photographer to rease the hallback. Now,
(03:05):
this is how I know about the case. When I
first encountered the case, I was covering it as a
missing person to raise the hallback. A twentysomething year old girl,
just beautiful. She was like the girl next door for
some reason. She always reminds me of Maryanne all Gilgan's
Island um. Not necessarily physically upbeat photographer trying to make
(03:28):
her way in the world, brunette, big brown eyes, always
smiling and every picture I ever saw of her, and
she was taking pictures, photos for auto Trader, I think
it was. And she did not want to go to
a certain gig because the guy was creepy, like answering
the door or nothing. But a towel. I mean I
would turn around and leave right there. Okay, but that aside,
(03:52):
she needed the money. She got a call back from
the guy to take a picture of a vehicle for
Auto Trader. She heads out the door, told us, tells
her coworker she doesn't want to go, heads out the door.
She's never seen alive again. Of course, I'm talking about
Stephen Avery, the star of Making a Murderer on Netflix.
(04:16):
It caught the country by storm, and everybody's convinced Stephen
Avery didn't do it. Okay. With me is a very
important guest today, Detective Tom Fassbender, who is the lead
investigator on the Avery case, as I like to say
the Tersa Hallback case. Also with me Crime Online investigative
reporter Lee Egan, and of course Alan Duke joining me
(04:40):
from l A. Tom, I can't tell you what an
honor it is, and I don't know how many times
you've heard me say something like that, probably very few.
And honor to have you on because you have endeared
the onslaught of the media suggesting Stephen Avery did not
rape and murder to Esa Haulback, I mean, come on,
(05:02):
when I had him on my show on h l
N Headline News. He lied right to my face, Tom,
he lied about what happened that evening. Why lie about it?
It seems like you'd be trying to help find her.
Why are you convinced, Tom and dummy down for me? Okay,
give me the facts. Why are you convinced Avery is
(05:22):
guilty of rape and murder because a judge has rejected
his request for a new trial? Thank heaven? Why are
you convinced Tom Fassbender that the judge was right? Well, Nancie,
thank you first for having me on, And why I
am convinced? I'm gonna dum you down as much as
(05:43):
they can. Here is number one, the scientific evidence overwhelmingly
who's that Stephen Avery did this? And number two, you
can disregard a little of the scientific evidence and you
can go right back to what you mentioned earlier, that
Stephen Avery lured Teresa to his place by using different names,
by using Star Sixtus to his identity. Wait a minute, Tom,
(06:07):
dare I dare I change a word you're saying? But
when you say did this? You know in polite company
when I grew up, we wouldn't even say cancer out loud.
We would say she got cancer. Okay, things that are bad.
They have a drinking problem. You said, did this, Let's
(06:28):
just put it out there. He chained her to a bed,
chained her to a bed with his little nephew or
cousin there, Brendan Dacy chained her to a bed. She
was raped repeatedly. All her hair was cut off, her
head and neil. She was shot dead after a brutal rape,
(06:50):
chained down, then her body was put in a quote
fire pit in his backyard, which he stirred well into
and night. Friends relatives saw him doing it and in
that fire pit. Later were recovered, not too much, but
her teeth and the studs offered daisy flintest Jane she
(07:12):
was wearing that she was last sane. Is that correct?
That's the this to which you referred. That is correct,
Steven Every murdered Teresa Halbach and burned her in that
pit where we found her creamines, bones, keeth and even
the little ribbits on the Jeane she was wearing that day.
Why do you know he didn't? I don't care no
(07:32):
offense Netflix, because I watch you. Why are they wrong?
And the jury was right because of the nancy. That
jury heard all the evidence to include Stephen Avery's DNA
on the hood latch off Teresa's rap four vehicle, Stephen
Avery having burned her electronics, her telephone, her p d A,
(07:54):
and her camera in his burned barrel. You didn't see
that on Netflix. Wait a minute, will you say that again? Plays?
I'm I'm writing notes as fast as I can. Tom
fast Bander, what now? Teresas hallbox, electronics, her telephone, her
her camera, and her PDA where found burned in Stephen
Avery's burned barrel. There were witnesses to that burned barrel
(08:16):
burning that day October thirty one, two thousand five. There
were witnesses seeing Stephen walking to that burned barrel. There
was a witness who smelled plastics and her stuff was
filing in ned burn barrel. You don't see that on
the Netflix documentary, and there's no way you can mistake that.
Lee Egan, investigative Reporter, Crime Online. UM. I will never
(08:38):
forget the first time I smelled burned electronics or plastics.
It was after nine one one September eleven in New
York where I was living at the time of nine
one one, and the whole city smell like burning. Uh.
Plastic her electronics. I mean, nobody had to tell me
what it was. I knew what it was. I've been
a million, Arson says, and I hadn't smelled it so heavily. Lee. Yep,
(08:59):
absolutely they and there was people like like Mr Fastmanner
said there was a lot of evidence that was left
out of that documentary, including people did say they smelled
burning plastics electronics, something coming from that burn pit, and
one and something else. He brought up about the DNA
on the hood latch. That was one of the reasons
(09:19):
the judge actually denied this this new motion because his attorney,
Avery's attorney, Zellner, she said something that she tested eleven
or like fifteen people. She tested fifteen people with their
DNA on the hood latch, and only eleven people's DNA matched,
So she's trying to say there's no way to say
(09:40):
Avery's DNA could have matched, which, of course, the judge says,
even if eleven or fifteen people did not match, that
doesn't mean one particular person wouldn't have left DNA. I
want to get back to the facts as you know
them with me. Lead investigator in the Stephen Avery prosecution,
Detective Tom fastbender. I had in, did you, so you
can clarify for me anyway that Teresa's cell phone, her
(10:06):
p d A, her camera were all burned in the
fire pit that even relatives and friends saw Stephen Avery
stirring and burning into the night. It was later claimed
police planted all that. But he's the one that relatives.
Avery's relatives and friends saw tending the fire, not police.
I want to get back to the facts as you
(10:27):
know them, Tom Fassbinder, Go ahead, I'll try not to interrupt.
Excuse me, no, no problem, Um, Yeah, it was the
burn He had two places that he burned. He had
the burned pit where he burned Teresa's body, and he
also had the burned barrel in front of his house
stats where he had the electronics. So two different locations
where he was burning and Teresa. And then the evidence
(10:49):
and then the other thing are you gonna mention? Was
in the garage where we knew that that Stephen had
shot Teresa and killed her. A bullet fragment was found
and on nipple a fragment was Teresa's DNA and all
saw that bullet fragment was forensically matched to the twenty
two rifle hanging above Stephen Avery's bed board, which his
(11:10):
nephew told us he had used to do this, and
that was not mentioned in making a murder either, that
the bullet was forensically matched two of that twenty two
caliber rifles. So in order for police to have planted
the evidence as it is now claimed, you're telling me
not a bullet but a bullet fragment, and having tested
forensically so many hundreds hundreds of bullets at the least
(11:35):
with the crime lab as a prosecutor, A bullet fragment
is mangled, it is destroyed. It's a squished up, mutilated
piece of metal. And this tiny piece of metal was
part of a twenty two bullet for a twenty two
weapon bullet, and it had Teresa Halback's DNA on it,
(11:55):
who shot in the head that was found in Avery's garages.
That correct, com That is correct. Hold on with me
right now, a special guest. Hunter skull Nick, criminal defense
attorney joining me out of New York. Hunter, thank you
for being with us. I want to hear your thinking
on the judge's denial of Stephen Avery's motion for a
(12:18):
brand new trial. What do you think and why? Uh? Well,
let's let me put it this way, and thank you
for having me here. I do appreciate it. UM. I
just find it very concerning that the judge would deny
a new trial at this point where you have an
appellate court that's already um disapproved the way in which
(12:43):
the the the information was obtained from Avery's nephew. If
his conviction is weak based upon um uh improper handling
of of of of the young man, and this convey
and this confession, and much of the proof against Avery
(13:04):
begins with that, UM, why wouldn't you at least give
a new trial. I'm not suggesting, UM, he's innocent simply
because of that. I'm not I'm not suggesting additional UH
testing or police work shouldn't be allowed into the trial.
But there's a chaint here. Why put someone away to
jail with that type of taint and not give the
(13:27):
opportunity for a retrial. It just doesn't make sense with me,
as Hunter School Nick Criminal Defense Journey out of New York. Well,
I think Tom Fastbinder the appellate reasoning was that Brendan Dacy,
although I completely disagree with them, had no idea what
he was doing when he confessed to police that he
raped at Stephen Avery's urging rape Teresa Holback. I don't
(13:50):
recall he ever said that he took part in the murder,
but that he did rape her. And he said that
on tape and on video, and his mother knew he
was there, his lawyer, detective investigators knew he was there
speaking to police. The appellate court said that his i
Q was low, so he didn't understand what he was saying.
Is my understanding of the decision that really the mastermind
(14:13):
was Stephen Avery, not Brendan Dacy, the nephew. So how
in the world with an appellate court saying it was
really Stephen Avery, should we reverse and grant a new
trial for Stephen Avery. That that's just food for thought.
But Tom Fassbender, you mentioned the burn pits and the
two locations of burning Teresa Haulback body and possessions. What
(14:38):
DNA was found on Teresa Avery's car which was hidden
at the back of Stephen Avery's auto salvage a lot.
What what DNA was on her car which was found
on his property. The DNA found it was in the
car and it was in blood form. And Stephen Avery's
DNA was found and essentially all portions of that car,
(15:00):
the front of the car, the mid section of the car,
the back of the car. Theresa Hall box of blood
DNA was also found in the storage area in the
back of that raft for when her body was placed
in the back of that car after being shot. Tom Fastbender,
you have reconstructed the entire day is Halloween back in
(15:23):
oh five. You've reconstructed the entire day that Theresa Hall
Back endured her last day on earth. What does the
evidence tell you happened from the time she left her
office or her job to go take those pictures? What
happened to her? The Treesa began her day early in
(15:44):
the morning, and basically she was lured to Stephen Avery's
house by Stephen Avery for the purpose of Stephen Avery
abducting her and ultimately killing her, murdering her um. There's
no question about that. The scientific evidence show is that,
and I will address Hunter's comments were just a second
in that Brendan Dacy's confession was not used in Stephen
(16:07):
Avery's trial, so there was no connection in that respect.
Stephen Avery was convicted on the evidence. So the nephews testimony,
the nephew's confession to raping her before she was murdered
while she was chained down on a bed that never
came into Stephen Avery's trial. That is correct, so there
was not an essential piece of that trial. The court,
(16:31):
the trial courts just recently found and denied Stephen Avery's
motion for a new trial, and in my opinion, because
it was based on theory, assumption and accusations not backed
by evidence. And what what resulted what we anticipated from
the court dismissal and emotion in its entirety without a hearing.
(16:53):
And because of that, we hope that the Hall Blacks
family can take the next step towards closure in this
case and a law enforcement can be further vindicated in
the great job that in this case. February two thousand four,
Maura Murray empties her bank account, drives four hours from school,
(17:14):
crashes her car, and vanishes. Joined the search as an
investigative reporter, uncovers new evidence and charrygates new witnesses, traces
down new leads in this riveting new investigative series, The
Disappearance of Maura Murray Saturday's seven sixth Central and nine
eighth Central on Oxygen the new network for Crime with
(17:45):
Me is Detective Tom Fastbender, who is the lead investigator
on the Avery case. As I like to say that
Teresa hallback case Also with Me Crime Online investigative reporter
Lee Egan, and Hunt her skull Nick criminal defense attorney
joining me out of New York. Based on the evidence, Tom,
she leaves her office to go take photos. She had
(18:08):
taken photos for every before and he was so creepy.
She didn't want to go back, and she told her
friends that at work, but she went back anyway. What
happens then, Tom, basically evidence She gets there between about
two between two thirty and three, takes photo of the car,
and Stephen has her come up to his house where
she's abducted, um ultimately raped and murdered. His next door
(18:35):
neighbor and nephew saw Teresa there taking picture of the car,
saw her walk towards Teresa or towards Stephen's house, and
then when he left the house to go hunting, Teresa's
carr was still there and Teresa was not around, and
neither was Stephen. What did she endure in her last hours? Tom,
I don't I don't even want to imagine what she
(18:55):
she endured her last hours. And because of that, and
I'm not and vitalize what she enduring the last hour,
You know, Alan, do that takes a lot for a
seasoned investigator, a veteran investigator like Time Fastbender, not to
even want to think about it. You know, I've had
cases like that where I just can't stand to even
(19:17):
think about it. It makes me want to vomit. It
makes me just want to run outside. And how I
remember a feeling, Alan. I had been working on my
first book. It was a nonfiction called Objection, and one
of the chapters is called blood Money, How people make
money off crime and murder. And I had detailed how
(19:39):
people by autopsy reports and they try to get crime
scene just horrible, horrible stuff. And by the time I
finished that book, I threw away the laptop. The laptop had,
I know, it sounds crazy, the laptop had researched so
many horrible, horrible things to write that book about what
(20:02):
people do. I couldn't even stand to put my fingertips
on it again. I just I just couldn't, and I
threw it away. I ran out and got another three
hundred dollar. Look, but what I'm saying is it, just
I don't blame him about not wanting to describe it again. Right.
Let me first say this about Detective Tom Fastbender. I
met him at Crime Con. He changed my mind. I
(20:24):
watched that whole Netflix series. I think I thought, oh,
free Steve Avery, get him a new trial. And then
I sat and we talked with Tom Fassbender, the detective.
I came away with a different opinion. And uh, I
really respect you, know Alan, I'm embarrassed for you, okay,
because you clearly don't have the wherewithal to know you
should be embarrassed. But um, I get it. Okay. A
(20:46):
lot of people have watched it and believed it. But
I guess I'm wrong in saying that because I was
on the case at the beginning, not to the degree
of course Tom was, but covering it as a missing
person because something about Teresa Hallback caught my attention and
when I saw a picture and then we interviewed. I
interviewed Avery and he lied about that evening he did
(21:10):
Star sixty seven. I think is the one you used
to hide your identity when you make a phone call
and tried to call her and uh, waiting for her
to get there and then after she's dead, he then
calls her with his with caller I D calls on
her phone so people can know he called, and you
know it's five thirty of your sis. He goes, hey,
(21:31):
what happened? You never showed up? He left that message.
But to me he said, she never came. And wait, wait, wait,
what did he say that she came and she left?
That was his story. She came, she took the pictures,
and she left. But he's leaving her the message, which
is caught on audio, Hey where are you? He never came?
(21:52):
So why the two different stories? Time fast bender? Why
lie to me on national TV about what happened? Well? Exactly. Stephen,
through out his accounts, especially early on in the case,
had varying accounts of what happened. Now the call he
made after she allegedly left for his rendition, he actually
didn't even message, but he did make the call. Didn't
(22:14):
hide his idea, and that was his ali by a
call because he told us that she had left and
he was going to call her back. But early on
he had told the auto trader that she never showed up.
Then it changed too, she showed up, but I didn't
come out. I saw taking pictures. Then it changed who
I did come out and she actually came into my house.
So his his stories changed. Your stories shouldn't have to
(22:34):
change if it's the truth, and if nothing happened, there's
there's no reason for that to occur. So you're right
on the on the change. I think I remember this, Tom,
I think I remember this as well, and I'm gonna
have to Alan pulled the transcript for me on what
he said on ALN But I recall quizzing him. I
(22:55):
went easy on him at first, but then I started
quizzing him because he told me Tom that he was
there the whole day and that he never saw her
car come by and go anywhere. And then I started
quizzing him because of course her car was found at
the back at the back of his property. He said,
where's your office that you were sitting in, and he
(23:16):
told me he goes. He said, I've got a window
looks right out and said, so you could see for
sure anybody that came in or out. He went yeah,
And then how did her car get secretly put there
by police? Well, he's sitting there and he never saw it,
and well, what is his kookie theory? About this was
all trumped up by police. Tom, that police what killed
(23:37):
her and planted her body there? I mean, who does
he say killed her? Well, ultimately I know that you
gus said police did it and police framed him. The
defense was that it was planted and that hected the
police framed him. And I mean there's another explanation other
than the police did it. Now, there's some theories, but
the defense that you know, my boyfriend did it or
someone else did it floating around there because they have
(23:59):
to keep uspen at these straws. Well, that didn't work.
Let's try this. Well, that didn't work. Let's try this,
and it gets the point of ridiculousness. The evidence speaks
for itself. Stephen a re abductive and killed Teresa Hallback
and uh far this to continue to go on is
such a travish in our front of the hall Black
family and and the true victims in this case. You know,
(24:20):
it's interesting, Tom, and I'm going to come back to
County School. Nick veteran trial lawyer out of it New York,
joining us today. You know what's funny? That funny odd
people have hunches, and I've always said they're not imaginary.
They're not without um merit. Hunches are something that is
(24:46):
ingrained in us. It's from thousands and thousands of years
of existence. You get a feeling. It may be something
you see or you smell, or you hear, or you
recall something subtle that you can't put your and you're on.
But it's real hunches, a real Teresa haulback how to hunch?
(25:07):
She did not want to go back to Steve and
Avery's to take those pictures that day. She did not
want to go back. She went back because it was
her job. She has never seen alive again. Question do
you hunter? Although the judge has now ruled he will
(25:28):
not get emotional, he won't not get a new trial,
That's not the end of it. The Making a Murderer
Star Stephen Avery could still get a new trial. How
absolutely well we know that there's there is an agreement
between the Wisconsin Attorney General as I understand it, and
Avery's attorneys for additional testing UM forensic testing UH, and
(25:54):
they plan on on proceeding down that that path and
also UM based on that agreement, seeking to obtain new
evidence and and and if something comes from that additional testing,
I think you're gonna you're gonna see another petition before
the judge, um and and and an argument that a
new trial should should go forward. Yeah. The one thing
(26:16):
I think we can all agree is that this was
a horrific murder. There's no question, and I don't think
anyone's contesting that she went through a horror beyond imagination.
I think we have to also look at the fact
that there is going to be additional testing being done
at this time, scientific testing which was agreed to as
I understand it, between the Attorney General uh and and
(26:39):
defense counsel. So you know there's something here. Um, the
question is what is it? And did the did the
investigating officers and time? I'm you know, with all all
the respect to everyone, I know you guys do a
uh you want to take a very tough job. Um.
The boyfriend has to be looked at closely. They have
a lot of issues here. As his lawyer states, quote,
(27:02):
the bottom line is neither we nor avery have any
intention of giving up and not proceeding. He is absolutely innocent.
You know, I don't know how his lawyers can do it,
but they are doing it well. You know, look at
look at it from a different stance at standpoint, this
is a man who spent fifteen years in jail, wrongly
(27:24):
convicted and only exonerated based upon DNA evidence. UM. He
could have given up in that case as well, and
he has every right to to to pursue additional scientific testing,
additional forensic testing, irrespective of all the evidence that is
there right now. UM. I understand there was blood found.
I understand there's evidence, forensic evidence, um. But there was
(27:47):
also some questionable conduct with respect to the nephew's interrogation
that deals with the nephew's case. That deals with the
nephew's case, not stephen A. But I understand. But it
was the same team investigating the whole case. Okay, I
hear you. I hear you. That can't be attained. Is
really is really, That's just what it is. It's a
(28:08):
suggestion by you and the defense lawyers. And I understand
the suggestion. I disagree with it because Brendan Dacy outright
said he raped Teresa Hallback. I've never thought he killed her.
I thought he was there when she was killed. That's
what he said. As a matter of fact. Take a
listen to the nephew. Brendan Dacy as he says he
(28:34):
quote had sex with Teresa hallback. Of course she was
chained to a bed at the time. But listen to this.
He's gonna revision one thing. When you're in the bedroom
and and you cut her throat. Previously you said that
even thought she was alive. Is that still your thought
on that? And why was that? Because she was preating
(28:56):
a little bit usly China, I'm not trying to breathe this.
How does she got I'm screaming up, screaming a lot.
She was screaming a lot, or wasn't she was when
you cut her throat? Was she screaming when you cut
her killed? Because when you're screaming a lot, you're like
(29:17):
your breathing goes off. Her song explained as a little bit.
You said she was screaming up. When was she screaming
up like while you were doing it, after you did it,
before you did it before when you cut her throat,
What was she doing if anything, like screaming for help
(29:41):
and crying. I want to I want to get that straight.
She was screaming for help and crying when you cut
her throat? Yeah, when did Stephen Choker or strangler like
a little bit after. Well, let's let's just go back
a little bit. Okay, tell us what exactly happened to her?
(30:04):
What order had happened? He said, they were basically three
things prior to you guys shooting her. Explain those in
the order that happened. Starting less, well, I got in. Yeah,
what what you guys did to her? It's sexy? Then
(30:27):
he stabbed her? And who stabbed her? He did? Who's he? Okay?
And then what and I can spell it? Okay? And
he talked to an eco her hair Okay, So he
choked her after you cut her throat. Now, also listen
(30:49):
to what was said on HLLN when I spoke to
Stephen Aver. He lied right to my face, Steve, and
I understand that Teresa came to your auto salvage lot
to take photos for the Auto Trader. Correct, Yes, she did.
She came down by me. Okay. And Stephen, is my
understanding that also you say that you saw her car leave? Yes,
(31:12):
I did, about what time between she was there between
two and two thirty two in the afternoon. Okay, Stephen,
how is it that her car could get all the
way back in this pit area where there is uh, well,
I believe we're showing it right now. I mean, wouldn't
you have to pass back by the office again? Well,
(31:33):
on the on the outstart top the office ottawise, backed
by me or back by Dan's pitt in the corner
is all open. It's all open so you can drive
in there, Mr Avery. Did you see anyone else come in?
Anyone unusual that didn't belong there? Well, during the night,
me and my brother had to go to pick up
(31:55):
some motel with the pride bed and I've seen tail
lights backed by me. Wasn't supposed to be. But we
turned around and we went back there on the side
and I took the flat flight of flat bed and
I looked around by me and behind me, but I
didn't see that. To Lee Egan, Crime Online investigative reporter,
(32:16):
renowned defense attorney out of New York Huntry School, Nick,
and of course to Detective Tom Fastbender, lead investigator on
the Avery case, thank you. A gorgeous twenty year old
woman is missing. There's a five thousand dollar reward and
catch this. The missing woman is from the same North
(32:37):
Carolina town as three other women who vanished and were
later found dead. I'm talking about Abbey Lynn Patterson, and
as we go to sirious today, another woman a shanty
Billy also making headlines with me right now, Bobby Maxwell,
(32:59):
Crime Stories, investigative reporter, Cheryl McCullum, Director of the Cold
Case Institute, and Dr Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining us out
of l A along with Alan Duke. The Duke also
in l A. First to you, Bobby Maxwell, thank you
for being with us. I want to talk first about
Abby Lynn Patterson. What do we know about her disappearance?
(33:21):
Abby actually disappeared on September five from her hometown of Lumberton,
North Carolina. She had been previously living in Jacksonville, Florida
for a few years, so recently had come back and
um had a good connection with her mom, a good relationship.
Said she was stepping out, she'd be back in an hour.
That hour went up, the mother didn't see her, and
she's been missing ever since. And once again, that was
(33:43):
since September five in Lumberton. In Lumberton, police say that
Abby Patterson was last seeing getting into a brown buick. Okay,
she sends five seven brown here, brown eyes. She's got
a birthmore on the back of her left sigh. She
was wearing brown shorts and a white shirt when she
(34:03):
was last seen, says she'll be gone for an hour,
never returns. Mom repeatedly, over and over and overcalls her
cell phone, which then goes straight to voicemail. Now, Cheryl McCollum,
you're the director of the Cold Case Institute. When a
phone goes directly to a voicemail, no ring, no nothing,
(34:24):
It just goes to voicemail, what does that mean? What
are the choices? Well, the batteries either dead, somebody destroyed
the phone, or somebody deliberately hit in the call. So me,
the key here is that brown viewing. She willingly got
in the car. So whoever that driver is is where
we start. That's where we start. For all I know
that was a ride to Target or to Walmart, although
(34:48):
I want to speak to the person in the brown
buick to find out where her next location was. On
her case, her missing person's case, the number tipline zero
six seven won three eight four five zero six seven
one three eight four five. She goes missing right there
on East ninth Street, eleven thirty a m. On a
(35:12):
Tuesday morning. After one hour, she tells her mom she's
gonna be back in one hour. Her mother calls her
in one hour, And in one hour, Cheryl McCollum, her
phone was already going directly to voicemail. Whatever was going
to happen had happened. I think within that one hour,
no question. And Nancy, it's going to be imperative that
(35:33):
law enforced me. Get on her social media. Look at
anybody that she you know, it's gonna take message to
or received the text message from. She went to meet someone,
No question about it. So again nine three Brown view it.
That is your whole money tree right there. Okay, let's
move forward to another woman missing, Ashanti Billy Bobby Maxwell,
(35:58):
Crime Stories, Investigate reporter, what can you tell me about Ashanti?
Ashanti is a nineteen year old originally from Maryland, Nancy,
and she was going to school in Virginia as a
culinary school there and Um actually worked for a blimpy
restaurant on a military base in that area as well.
She was expected in to work on September. The last
(36:22):
they saw of her was in her car through security
going into that military base, and reports are that she
was her car was seeing They couldn't tell if she
was in it, leaving a short time after that. She
never did show up at the workplace. And um, the
FBI was brought into the case because it was on
a military base. And sadly, she was found just recently
(36:44):
her body in Charlotte, North Carolina, over three hundred miles away.
Billy's body was found behind a church in Charlotte, North Carolina,
as Bobby Maxwell just reported, over three hundred miles away
from where she was last seen in Norfolk. Why why,
her family says, quote to the person or persons that
(37:06):
decided they wanted to take our baby away from us
and away from everyone that loved her, you are a coward.
That's what Billy's mother, Brandy said. Everyone. Please, I'm begging
everybody please pray for my baby. Please please prey for
(37:30):
Shinty Billy, my baby, She's not everything. Please pray for
my baby home today. Everyone, please share anyone you know
help me bring my baby a shanty hole. Please. It's
just I'm just thinking about why they're saying, Sheryl McCollum
(37:50):
that they cannot see whether she is the one driving
her car out on that surveillance video. I mean, come on,
we can figure we can see a rock on the
un an individual rock. We can see a footprint on
the moon, but we can't figure out who's driving the
car face backwards to get the last tag. But Nancy,
the thing is she was found three miles away. But
(38:13):
that's six hours driving time. That's an awful long way
for a stranger to drive a kidnap victim. So this
has a deal of it is being somewhat domestic, and
I been looking at a boyfriend or ex boyfriend. Investigators
find her cell phone that day in a Norfolk dumpster.
(38:33):
They later find her car abandoned. Okay, so somebody else
was driving that car and somebody got rid of her
cell phone right there on the spot. An intense search
for the teen girl ensued, and Billy's family forming a
search party to look for her, sending out flyers the works,
(38:53):
begging for help on Facebook. I'm looking at her picture
right now. She's absolutely beautiful. That day, she was scheduled
to show up at her job at a sandwich shop
at the Joint Expeditiary Base that's Little Creek at five
a m that Monday morning. She was a student at
the Art Institute of Virginia Beach. Last scene heading to work.
(39:16):
She never arrived. It's amazing to me that they haven't
found any DNA, or have they, Bobby Max Well, I mean,
we've got the car as most likely as secondary or
maybe even a primary crime scene. You have her body
now recovered dumped behind a church. It's very hard for
me to believe there's not any DNA. Obviously, Nancy, no
(39:39):
struggle on the base or or any kind of DNA
was showed around her workplace. And by the way, the
boyfriend does have an alabat. He was in training at
a military base in South Carolina, so he has been
ruled out. Um, but no DNA. And like you said,
a long long way to drive with someone who's fighting
to escape. If she's alive, if she's a life, a
(40:01):
sex assault and a murder could have taken place right there.
She was getting out of the car at five am
in the morning or earlier in the dark hour. She's
on a military base back in that car, and it
was just a matter of putting her in the trunk
and driving her to a dump site. Now, what do
we know, Sheryl McCollum about where her body was done
(40:22):
behind that church at Charlotte right A landscape employee found
her body behind the A. M. E. Zion Church. UM,
not covered, not a shallow gray, just out in the open.
And again, Nancy, I'm going to tell you, that's an
awful long way for a stranger to take somebody. And
usually people tend to go places they know, So again
(40:44):
I would look for people that knew that area and
possibly even knew that church. You're right about that was
she clothed? Do we know that? Bobby Maxwell? Don't have
any information on whether she was clothed or not. Um No,
no word on any kind of assault or anything of
that matter. You know, was hard to believe, Sheryl McColl
I'm talking about you can't figure out who was driving
the car on surveillance video. You remember the killer clown case.
(41:07):
We were talking about a twenty seven year old murder
where a female dressed as a clown shows up at
a woman's door and with balloons and flowers, and when
she answers the door, shoots her in the face dead.
Twenty seven years pass and suddenly with advances in DNA technique,
they can determine who shot her according to DNA, And
(41:31):
we don't know about any DNA on this girl's body.
Why why is that? Maybe they're not releasing it yet, Nancy,
because they haven't released the cause of death either, And
that's probably not a bad idea with an open investigation
like this. But there's also a chance they could get
a latent print off the cell phone whoever threw that
cellphone in the dumpster, they could get a decent print
off that, or if they even were stupid enough to
use the cell phone, or prints on the car, around
(41:54):
the trunk, on the handle, around the ignition. Remember in
the terse in this Stephen Avery case, there's victim Teresa Hallback.
There was DNA on the ignition, the ignition Cheryl McCullum
where he's hunched over trying to start Tersa Hallback's car.
He left DNA there, exactly, You can't leave. Yeah, he
(42:15):
clearly used her vehicle. She didn't did her own car.
So as he used her car to transport her, which
is possible, it leads a short distance. And he had
to touch the trunk to Saren will the rear view, Mira,
the gearshift. He touched a lot of things to Dr
Bethany Marshall way in you know, this was a military
base with a lot of men. And when you told
(42:36):
me that the restaurant where she was working was located
on the military basis, beautiful twenty year old art student,
I just got a chill up my spine. I mean,
I just thought, from parents perspective, how vulnerable she was
working there, and what I would want to know, since
there seems to be perhaps some familiarity between her and
(42:57):
the abductor, who was going in and out of that restaurant.
I would want to look at all the receipts. I
would want to look at who was frequenting the restaurant.
I would want to look at her cell phone to see,
you know, who was texting, who was calling, look on
her social media because it seems to me, if there
was some familiarity between her and the perpetrator, that somebody
(43:18):
would have been grooming her, right, that somebody would have
targeted her. She would have been on somebody's side, and um,
so that the person would have gained her trust enough
to have persuaded her to get in the car with them.
So who could that person have been on this military base.
It doesn't seem random, It doesn't seem like somebody just
(43:38):
you know, nabbed her as she was going into work.
It seems like she knew the perpetrator. You know. Lumberton
investigators state that there are three other women who vanished
from the very same town as Abby in separate incidents,
and they were all discovered murdered slain within the last year.
(44:04):
How can this not be connected, Bobby Maxwell, Yes, Nancy,
and and not just the past year, but since April,
within the same few blocks of each other. Christina Bennett
thirty two, Rhonda Jones thirty six, they were found across
the street from each other. And then in June another woman,
Megan Oxendine, her body was found just three blocks from
(44:25):
the original to Sheryl mccollumb, three women, Christina Bennett thirty two,
Rhonda Jones thirty six, Megan oxen Dine, all vanished from
the same town in separate incidents, all discovered slain in
the same calendar year. Now I've got Abby missing from
(44:46):
what a mile away. Maybe it sounds like it's strayed
out of the two killer playbooks. I'm very concerned about
her well being, obviously, but again she's probably going to
be found within a mile of that area. You know,
in this North Carolina town, family still looking for answers
and the disappearance of three women were dashed, all their
(45:10):
hopes dashed when the women were found slain. To Dr
Bethany Marshall, you know that Abby Lynn Patterson's family has
got to be so distraught, wondering is she the fourth
in a series where then you know a couple of
miles from each other, You know, Nancy, They must be devastated.
And the fact that her mother called her cell phone,
(45:33):
it went straight to voicemail, and then her daughter was
never seen or heard from again. Can you imagine from
a mother's perspective what that must feel like. And when
Sheryl McCollum said this is out of the serial killer playbook,
the first thought that crossed my mind was, well that
the serial killer, then the perpetrator likely did not know
(45:53):
the victims, because we know serial killers do not groom
their victims in the same way that the serial rape
might say that somebody who might commit an abduction, rape,
homicide might, you know, sort of in its incursory way
know the victim. A serial killer will just drive through
the streets, troll through the streets, and the looking process
(46:15):
will be very satishized and very exciting. For them, and
then they will pick a victim because that victim is
appealing to them in some way. But the victim will
most likely be a stranger, so be more difficult for
the police to sift through the clues and find the
perpetrator if he's a serial killer. And I'm worried about
more women being at risk in this small town. You
(46:35):
know another clue regarding her clothing. Right after Ashanti goes missing,
I remember her body was found behind the church hundreds
of miles away. A two hour search ensued in volunteers
found a pink shoe and a sweatshirt. Okay, that's the
(46:56):
girl where herself? I was found later that day in
the dumpster three mile us away from the base, and
neighbors spotted her car at a dead end road. Okay,
so that was planted there on purpose. It had been
there for several days. We'll listen to this, Uh, Cheryl
mccollumb Cold Case Institute, what do you make of this?
Then a volunteer found the other pink shoe near where
(47:19):
her car was found. So one pink she found near
where she goes missing, the other pink she found near
where her car was found. So that tells me there
was a mighty struggle, no question, Nancy. This this is
the kind of thing where law enforcement those are easy
(47:42):
not to connect, and it also gives law enforcement, you know,
for bread comes to follow where the fight happened. She
continue to fight. That may tell us she was still
alive at that point. Or it could have been an
issue of the purp throwing things away, because there's a sweatshirt,
there is a tennisie here, a tennis shee you near
her car. There was a phone charger disposed of as well.
(48:05):
It could have been somebody just throwing things out. But
why would they bother to throw things out? They could
just leave them in the car. So it seems to
it bespeaks more of a struggle to me than anything else.
So what we know is a shanty was found dead,
the other women dead, some within blocks at each other,
(48:26):
and now another girl, Abby Lynn Patterson, is missing. So
what do we do now, Cheryl McCullum. Nancy, they're gonna
have to just comb the area. Abby again, she's not
gonna be far and I just do not think they're
gonna find her alive, but she will be in that
same vicinity. Cheryl McCullum directed with the Cold Case Institute
(48:48):
with me Dr Bethany Marshall and Bobby Maxwell. Crime Stories
contributing reporter Cheryl McCullum. This guy and the brown buick, Okay,
we already know three women are dead within blocks of
each other. Where do we go to find the driver
of that Brown buick? Nazy under the quote you will
(49:10):
be in you said a long time ago, Suan, don't
swim in the sewer. We have got to go with
this type of individual would go ceedy bars, back alley,
the gutter. We literally have got to talk to drug dealers, pimps,
and prostitute to find out who knows give perfect The
search goes on for Abbey Lynn Patterson as well as
(49:35):
for the killer of Ashanti Billy Nancy Grace Crime Stories
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(01:36):
Climb stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel
one thirty two. Hundreds of thousands of people are calling
for the pardon of a convicted killer after the Netflix
series Making a Murderer exposed possible flaws in the case
that put him behind bars. We have Stephen Avery, and
Making a Murderer tells the story of Stephen Aver. He's
the Wisconsin man who served eighteen years in prison for
(01:59):
rape before exonerated. In two thousand and three. We the
jury find the defendant guilty of only to find himself
in prison again on a murder conviction. In two thousand seven.
Many viewers concluded Avery was framed by authorities who lied
and planted evidence. Stephen Avery is right where he needs
to be in prison. I think he was innocent. Is
(02:22):
innocent unless you've been living in a cave or hiding
under a rock. You know about Netflix? I mean I
do I have to navigate it very carefully, though, because
my twins like to get on there and watch kid shows.
There's a lot more on there than kids shows, I
can tell you that much. But right now I don't
think I know a single soul that doesn't know about
(02:44):
the Netflix so called documentary called Making a Murderer, which
takes thousands and thousands of hours of footage, cuts it
down and suggest that a convicted killer, Stephen Avery, did
not murder a young photographer to rease the hallback. Now,
(03:05):
this is how I know about the case. When I
first encountered the case, I was covering it as a
missing person to raise the hallback. A twentysomething year old girl,
just beautiful. She was like the girl next door for
some reason. She always reminds me of Maryanne all Gilgan's
Island um. Not necessarily physically upbeat photographer trying to make
(03:28):
her way in the world, brunette, big brown eyes, always
smiling and every picture I ever saw of her, and
she was taking pictures, photos for auto Trader, I think
it was. And she did not want to go to
a certain gig because the guy was creepy, like answering
the door or nothing. But a towel. I mean I
would turn around and leave right there. Okay, but that aside,
(03:52):
she needed the money. She got a call back from
the guy to take a picture of a vehicle for
Auto Trader. She heads out the door, told us, tells
her coworker she doesn't want to go, heads out the door.
She's never seen alive again. Of course, I'm talking about
Stephen Avery, the star of Making a Murderer on Netflix.
(04:16):
It caught the country by storm, and everybody's convinced Stephen
Avery didn't do it. Okay. With me is a very
important guest today, Detective Tom Fassbender, who is the lead
investigator on the Avery case, as I like to say
the Tersa Hallback case. Also with me Crime Online investigative
reporter Lee Egan, and of course Alan Duke joining me
(04:40):
from l A. Tom, I can't tell you what an
honor it is, and I don't know how many times
you've heard me say something like that, probably very few.
And honor to have you on because you have endeared
the onslaught of the media suggesting Stephen Avery did not
rape and murder to Esa Haulback, I mean, come on,
(05:02):
when I had him on my show on h l
N Headline News. He lied right to my face, Tom,
he lied about what happened that evening. Why lie about it?
It seems like you'd be trying to help find her.
Why are you convinced, Tom and dummy down for me? Okay,
give me the facts. Why are you convinced Avery is
(05:22):
guilty of rape and murder because a judge has rejected
his request for a new trial? Thank heaven? Why are
you convinced Tom Fassbender that the judge was right? Well, Nancie,
thank you first for having me on, And why I
am convinced? I'm gonna dum you down as much as
(05:43):
they can. Here is number one, the scientific evidence overwhelmingly
who's that Stephen Avery did this? And number two, you
can disregard a little of the scientific evidence and you
can go right back to what you mentioned earlier, that
Stephen Avery lured Teresa to his place by using different names,
by using Star Sixtus to his identity. Wait a minute, Tom,
(06:07):
dare I dare I change a word you're saying? But
when you say did this? You know in polite company
when I grew up, we wouldn't even say cancer out loud.
We would say she got cancer. Okay, things that are bad.
They have a drinking problem. You said, did this, Let's
(06:28):
just put it out there. He chained her to a bed,
chained her to a bed with his little nephew or
cousin there, Brendan Dacy chained her to a bed. She
was raped repeatedly. All her hair was cut off, her
head and neil. She was shot dead after a brutal rape,
(06:50):
chained down, then her body was put in a quote
fire pit in his backyard, which he stirred well into
and night. Friends relatives saw him doing it and in
that fire pit. Later were recovered, not too much, but
her teeth and the studs offered daisy flintest Jane she
(07:12):
was wearing that she was last sane. Is that correct?
That's the this to which you referred. That is correct,
Steven Every murdered Teresa Halbach and burned her in that
pit where we found her creamines, bones, keeth and even
the little ribbits on the Jeane she was wearing that day.
Why do you know he didn't? I don't care no
(07:32):
offense Netflix, because I watch you. Why are they wrong?
And the jury was right because of the nancy. That
jury heard all the evidence to include Stephen Avery's DNA
on the hood latch off Teresa's rap four vehicle, Stephen
Avery having burned her electronics, her telephone, her p d A,
(07:54):
and her camera in his burned barrel. You didn't see
that on Netflix. Wait a minute, will you say that again? Plays?
I'm I'm writing notes as fast as I can. Tom
fast Bander, what now? Teresas hallbox, electronics, her telephone, her
her camera, and her PDA where found burned in Stephen
Avery's burned barrel. There were witnesses to that burned barrel
(08:16):
burning that day October thirty one, two thousand five. There
were witnesses seeing Stephen walking to that burned barrel. There
was a witness who smelled plastics and her stuff was
filing in ned burn barrel. You don't see that on
the Netflix documentary, and there's no way you can mistake that.
Lee Egan, investigative Reporter, Crime Online. UM. I will never
(08:38):
forget the first time I smelled burned electronics or plastics.
It was after nine one one September eleven in New
York where I was living at the time of nine
one one, and the whole city smell like burning. Uh.
Plastic her electronics. I mean, nobody had to tell me
what it was. I knew what it was. I've been
a million, Arson says, and I hadn't smelled it so heavily. Lee. Yep,
(08:59):
absolutely they and there was people like like Mr Fastmanner
said there was a lot of evidence that was left
out of that documentary, including people did say they smelled
burning plastics electronics, something coming from that burn pit, and
one and something else. He brought up about the DNA
on the hood latch. That was one of the reasons
(09:19):
the judge actually denied this this new motion because his attorney,
Avery's attorney, Zellner, she said something that she tested eleven
or like fifteen people. She tested fifteen people with their
DNA on the hood latch, and only eleven people's DNA matched,
So she's trying to say there's no way to say
(09:40):
Avery's DNA could have matched, which, of course, the judge says,
even if eleven or fifteen people did not match, that
doesn't mean one particular person wouldn't have left DNA. I
want to get back to the facts as you know
them with me. Lead investigator in the Stephen Avery prosecution,
Detective Tom fastbender. I had in, did you, so you
can clarify for me anyway that Teresa's cell phone, her
(10:06):
p d A, her camera were all burned in the
fire pit that even relatives and friends saw Stephen Avery
stirring and burning into the night. It was later claimed
police planted all that. But he's the one that relatives.
Avery's relatives and friends saw tending the fire, not police.
I want to get back to the facts as you
(10:27):
know them, Tom Fassbinder, Go ahead, I'll try not to interrupt.
Excuse me, no, no problem, Um, Yeah, it was the
burn He had two places that he burned. He had
the burned pit where he burned Teresa's body, and he
also had the burned barrel in front of his house
stats where he had the electronics. So two different locations
where he was burning and Teresa. And then the evidence
(10:49):
and then the other thing are you gonna mention? Was
in the garage where we knew that that Stephen had
shot Teresa and killed her. A bullet fragment was found
and on nipple a fragment was Teresa's DNA and all
saw that bullet fragment was forensically matched to the twenty
two rifle hanging above Stephen Avery's bed board, which his
(11:10):
nephew told us he had used to do this, and
that was not mentioned in making a murder either, that
the bullet was forensically matched two of that twenty two
caliber rifles. So in order for police to have planted
the evidence as it is now claimed, you're telling me
not a bullet but a bullet fragment, and having tested
forensically so many hundreds hundreds of bullets at the least
(11:35):
with the crime lab as a prosecutor, A bullet fragment
is mangled, it is destroyed. It's a squished up, mutilated
piece of metal. And this tiny piece of metal was
part of a twenty two bullet for a twenty two
weapon bullet, and it had Teresa Halback's DNA on it,
(11:55):
who shot in the head that was found in Avery's garages.
That correct, com That is correct. Hold on with me
right now, a special guest. Hunter skull Nick, criminal defense
attorney joining me out of New York. Hunter, thank you
for being with us. I want to hear your thinking
on the judge's denial of Stephen Avery's motion for a
(12:18):
brand new trial. What do you think and why? Uh? Well,
let's let me put it this way, and thank you
for having me here. I do appreciate it. UM. I
just find it very concerning that the judge would deny
a new trial at this point where you have an
appellate court that's already um disapproved the way in which
(12:43):
the the the information was obtained from Avery's nephew. If
his conviction is weak based upon um uh improper handling
of of of of the young man, and this convey
and this confession, and much of the proof against Avery
(13:04):
begins with that, UM, why wouldn't you at least give
a new trial. I'm not suggesting, UM, he's innocent simply
because of that. I'm not I'm not suggesting additional UH
testing or police work shouldn't be allowed into the trial.
But there's a chaint here. Why put someone away to
jail with that type of taint and not give the
(13:27):
opportunity for a retrial. It just doesn't make sense with me,
as Hunter School Nick Criminal Defense Journey out of New York. Well,
I think Tom Fastbinder the appellate reasoning was that Brendan Dacy,
although I completely disagree with them, had no idea what
he was doing when he confessed to police that he
raped at Stephen Avery's urging rape Teresa Holback. I don't
(13:50):
recall he ever said that he took part in the murder,
but that he did rape her. And he said that
on tape and on video, and his mother knew he
was there, his lawyer, detective investigators knew he was there
speaking to police. The appellate court said that his i
Q was low, so he didn't understand what he was saying.
Is my understanding of the decision that really the mastermind
(14:13):
was Stephen Avery, not Brendan Dacy, the nephew. So how
in the world with an appellate court saying it was
really Stephen Avery, should we reverse and grant a new
trial for Stephen Avery. That that's just food for thought.
But Tom Fassbender, you mentioned the burn pits and the
two locations of burning Teresa Haulback body and possessions. What
(14:38):
DNA was found on Teresa Avery's car which was hidden
at the back of Stephen Avery's auto salvage a lot.
What what DNA was on her car which was found
on his property. The DNA found it was in the
car and it was in blood form. And Stephen Avery's
DNA was found and essentially all portions of that car,
(15:00):
the front of the car, the mid section of the car,
the back of the car. Theresa Hall box of blood
DNA was also found in the storage area in the
back of that raft for when her body was placed
in the back of that car after being shot. Tom Fastbender,
you have reconstructed the entire day is Halloween back in
(15:23):
oh five. You've reconstructed the entire day that Theresa Hall
Back endured her last day on earth. What does the
evidence tell you happened from the time she left her
office or her job to go take those pictures? What
happened to her? The Treesa began her day early in
(15:44):
the morning, and basically she was lured to Stephen Avery's
house by Stephen Avery for the purpose of Stephen Avery
abducting her and ultimately killing her, murdering her um. There's
no question about that. The scientific evidence show is that,
and I will address Hunter's comments were just a second
in that Brendan Dacy's confession was not used in Stephen
(16:07):
Avery's trial, so there was no connection in that respect.
Stephen Avery was convicted on the evidence. So the nephews testimony,
the nephew's confession to raping her before she was murdered
while she was chained down on a bed that never
came into Stephen Avery's trial. That is correct, so there
was not an essential piece of that trial. The court,
(16:31):
the trial courts just recently found and denied Stephen Avery's
motion for a new trial, and in my opinion, because
it was based on theory, assumption and accusations not backed
by evidence. And what what resulted what we anticipated from
the court dismissal and emotion in its entirety without a hearing.
(16:53):
And because of that, we hope that the Hall Blacks
family can take the next step towards closure in this
case and a law enforcement can be further vindicated in
the great job that in this case. February two thousand four,
Maura Murray empties her bank account, drives four hours from school,
(17:14):
crashes her car, and vanishes. Joined the search as an
investigative reporter, uncovers new evidence and charrygates new witnesses, traces
down new leads in this riveting new investigative series, The
Disappearance of Maura Murray Saturday's seven sixth Central and nine
eighth Central on Oxygen the new network for Crime with
(17:45):
Me is Detective Tom Fastbender, who is the lead investigator
on the Avery case. As I like to say that
Teresa hallback case Also with Me Crime Online investigative reporter
Lee Egan, and Hunt her skull Nick criminal defense attorney
joining me out of New York. Based on the evidence, Tom,
she leaves her office to go take photos. She had
(18:08):
taken photos for every before and he was so creepy.
She didn't want to go back, and she told her
friends that at work, but she went back anyway. What
happens then, Tom, basically evidence She gets there between about
two between two thirty and three, takes photo of the car,
and Stephen has her come up to his house where
she's abducted, um ultimately raped and murdered. His next door
(18:35):
neighbor and nephew saw Teresa there taking picture of the car,
saw her walk towards Teresa or towards Stephen's house, and
then when he left the house to go hunting, Teresa's
carr was still there and Teresa was not around, and
neither was Stephen. What did she endure in her last hours? Tom,
I don't I don't even want to imagine what she
(18:55):
she endured her last hours. And because of that, and
I'm not and vitalize what she enduring the last hour,
You know, Alan, do that takes a lot for a
seasoned investigator, a veteran investigator like Time Fastbender, not to
even want to think about it. You know, I've had
cases like that where I just can't stand to even
(19:17):
think about it. It makes me want to vomit. It
makes me just want to run outside. And how I
remember a feeling, Alan. I had been working on my
first book. It was a nonfiction called Objection, and one
of the chapters is called blood Money, How people make
money off crime and murder. And I had detailed how
(19:39):
people by autopsy reports and they try to get crime
scene just horrible, horrible stuff. And by the time I
finished that book, I threw away the laptop. The laptop had,
I know, it sounds crazy, the laptop had researched so
many horrible, horrible things to write that book about what
(20:02):
people do. I couldn't even stand to put my fingertips
on it again. I just I just couldn't, and I
threw it away. I ran out and got another three
hundred dollar. Look, but what I'm saying is it, just
I don't blame him about not wanting to describe it again. Right.
Let me first say this about Detective Tom Fastbender. I
met him at Crime Con. He changed my mind. I
(20:24):
watched that whole Netflix series. I think I thought, oh,
free Steve Avery, get him a new trial. And then
I sat and we talked with Tom Fassbender, the detective.
I came away with a different opinion. And uh, I
really respect you, know Alan, I'm embarrassed for you, okay,
because you clearly don't have the wherewithal to know you
should be embarrassed. But um, I get it. Okay. A
(20:46):
lot of people have watched it and believed it. But
I guess I'm wrong in saying that because I was
on the case at the beginning, not to the degree
of course Tom was, but covering it as a missing
person because something about Teresa Hallback caught my attention and
when I saw a picture and then we interviewed. I
interviewed Avery and he lied about that evening he did
(21:10):
Star sixty seven. I think is the one you used
to hide your identity when you make a phone call
and tried to call her and uh, waiting for her
to get there and then after she's dead, he then
calls her with his with caller I D calls on
her phone so people can know he called, and you
know it's five thirty of your sis. He goes, hey,
(21:31):
what happened? You never showed up? He left that message.
But to me he said, she never came. And wait, wait, wait,
what did he say that she came and she left?
That was his story. She came, she took the pictures,
and she left. But he's leaving her the message, which
is caught on audio, Hey where are you? He never came?
(21:52):
So why the two different stories? Time fast bender? Why
lie to me on national TV about what happened? Well? Exactly. Stephen,
through out his accounts, especially early on in the case,
had varying accounts of what happened. Now the call he
made after she allegedly left for his rendition, he actually
didn't even message, but he did make the call. Didn't
(22:14):
hide his idea, and that was his ali by a
call because he told us that she had left and
he was going to call her back. But early on
he had told the auto trader that she never showed up.
Then it changed too, she showed up, but I didn't
come out. I saw taking pictures. Then it changed who
I did come out and she actually came into my house.
So his his stories changed. Your stories shouldn't have to
(22:34):
change if it's the truth, and if nothing happened, there's
there's no reason for that to occur. So you're right
on the on the change. I think I remember this, Tom,
I think I remember this as well, and I'm gonna
have to Alan pulled the transcript for me on what
he said on ALN But I recall quizzing him. I
(22:55):
went easy on him at first, but then I started
quizzing him because he told me Tom that he was
there the whole day and that he never saw her
car come by and go anywhere. And then I started
quizzing him because of course her car was found at
the back at the back of his property. He said,
where's your office that you were sitting in, and he
(23:16):
told me he goes. He said, I've got a window
looks right out and said, so you could see for
sure anybody that came in or out. He went yeah,
And then how did her car get secretly put there
by police? Well, he's sitting there and he never saw it,
and well, what is his kookie theory? About this was
all trumped up by police. Tom, that police what killed
(23:37):
her and planted her body there? I mean, who does
he say killed her? Well, ultimately I know that you
gus said police did it and police framed him. The
defense was that it was planted and that hected the
police framed him. And I mean there's another explanation other
than the police did it. Now, there's some theories, but
the defense that you know, my boyfriend did it or
someone else did it floating around there because they have
(23:59):
to keep uspen at these straws. Well, that didn't work.
Let's try this. Well, that didn't work. Let's try this,
and it gets the point of ridiculousness. The evidence speaks
for itself. Stephen a re abductive and killed Teresa Hallback
and uh far this to continue to go on is
such a travish in our front of the hall Black
family and and the true victims in this case. You know,
(24:20):
it's interesting, Tom, and I'm going to come back to
County School. Nick veteran trial lawyer out of it New York,
joining us today. You know what's funny? That funny odd
people have hunches, and I've always said they're not imaginary.
They're not without um merit. Hunches are something that is
(24:46):
ingrained in us. It's from thousands and thousands of years
of existence. You get a feeling. It may be something
you see or you smell, or you hear, or you
recall something subtle that you can't put your and you're on.
But it's real hunches, a real Teresa haulback how to hunch?
(25:07):
She did not want to go back to Steve and
Avery's to take those pictures that day. She did not
want to go back. She went back because it was
her job. She has never seen alive again. Question do
you hunter? Although the judge has now ruled he will
(25:28):
not get emotional, he won't not get a new trial,
That's not the end of it. The Making a Murderer
Star Stephen Avery could still get a new trial. How
absolutely well we know that there's there is an agreement
between the Wisconsin Attorney General as I understand it, and
Avery's attorneys for additional testing UM forensic testing UH, and
(25:54):
they plan on on proceeding down that that path and
also UM based on that agreement, seeking to obtain new
evidence and and and if something comes from that additional testing,
I think you're gonna you're gonna see another petition before
the judge, um and and and an argument that a
new trial should should go forward. Yeah. The one thing
(26:16):
I think we can all agree is that this was
a horrific murder. There's no question, and I don't think
anyone's contesting that she went through a horror beyond imagination.
I think we have to also look at the fact
that there is going to be additional testing being done
at this time, scientific testing which was agreed to as
I understand it, between the Attorney General uh and and
(26:39):
defense counsel. So you know there's something here. Um, the
question is what is it? And did the did the
investigating officers and time? I'm you know, with all all
the respect to everyone, I know you guys do a
uh you want to take a very tough job. Um.
The boyfriend has to be looked at closely. They have
a lot of issues here. As his lawyer states, quote,
(27:02):
the bottom line is neither we nor avery have any
intention of giving up and not proceeding. He is absolutely innocent.
You know, I don't know how his lawyers can do it,
but they are doing it well. You know, look at
look at it from a different stance at standpoint, this
is a man who spent fifteen years in jail, wrongly
(27:24):
convicted and only exonerated based upon DNA evidence. UM. He
could have given up in that case as well, and
he has every right to to to pursue additional scientific testing,
additional forensic testing, irrespective of all the evidence that is
there right now. UM. I understand there was blood found.
I understand there's evidence, forensic evidence, um. But there was
(27:47):
also some questionable conduct with respect to the nephew's interrogation
that deals with the nephew's case. That deals with the
nephew's case, not stephen A. But I understand. But it
was the same team investigating the whole case. Okay, I
hear you. I hear you. That can't be attained. Is
really is really, That's just what it is. It's a
(28:08):
suggestion by you and the defense lawyers. And I understand
the suggestion. I disagree with it because Brendan Dacy outright
said he raped Teresa Hallback. I've never thought he killed her.
I thought he was there when she was killed. That's
what he said. As a matter of fact. Take a
listen to the nephew. Brendan Dacy as he says he
(28:34):
quote had sex with Teresa hallback. Of course she was
chained to a bed at the time. But listen to this.
He's gonna revision one thing. When you're in the bedroom
and and you cut her throat. Previously you said that
even thought she was alive. Is that still your thought
on that? And why was that? Because she was preating
(28:56):
a little bit usly China, I'm not trying to breathe this.
How does she got I'm screaming up, screaming a lot.
She was screaming a lot, or wasn't she was when
you cut her throat? Was she screaming when you cut
her killed? Because when you're screaming a lot, you're like
(29:17):
your breathing goes off. Her song explained as a little bit.
You said she was screaming up. When was she screaming
up like while you were doing it, after you did it,
before you did it before when you cut her throat,
What was she doing if anything, like screaming for help
(29:41):
and crying. I want to I want to get that straight.
She was screaming for help and crying when you cut
her throat? Yeah, when did Stephen Choker or strangler like
a little bit after. Well, let's let's just go back
a little bit. Okay, tell us what exactly happened to her?
(30:04):
What order had happened? He said, they were basically three
things prior to you guys shooting her. Explain those in
the order that happened. Starting less, well, I got in. Yeah,
what what you guys did to her? It's sexy? Then
(30:27):
he stabbed her? And who stabbed her? He did? Who's he? Okay?
And then what and I can spell it? Okay? And
he talked to an eco her hair Okay, So he
choked her after you cut her throat. Now, also listen
(30:49):
to what was said on HLLN when I spoke to
Stephen Aver. He lied right to my face, Steve, and
I understand that Teresa came to your auto salvage lot
to take photos for the Auto Trader. Correct, Yes, she did.
She came down by me. Okay. And Stephen, is my
understanding that also you say that you saw her car leave? Yes,
(31:12):
I did, about what time between she was there between
two and two thirty two in the afternoon. Okay, Stephen,
how is it that her car could get all the
way back in this pit area where there is uh, well,
I believe we're showing it right now. I mean, wouldn't
you have to pass back by the office again? Well,
(31:33):
on the on the outstart top the office ottawise, backed
by me or back by Dan's pitt in the corner
is all open. It's all open so you can drive
in there, Mr Avery. Did you see anyone else come in?
Anyone unusual that didn't belong there? Well, during the night,
me and my brother had to go to pick up
(31:55):
some motel with the pride bed and I've seen tail
lights backed by me. Wasn't supposed to be. But we
turned around and we went back there on the side
and I took the flat flight of flat bed and
I looked around by me and behind me, but I
didn't see that. To Lee Egan, Crime Online investigative reporter,
(32:16):
renowned defense attorney out of New York Huntry School, Nick,
and of course to Detective Tom Fastbender, lead investigator on
the Avery case, thank you. A gorgeous twenty year old
woman is missing. There's a five thousand dollar reward and
catch this. The missing woman is from the same North
(32:37):
Carolina town as three other women who vanished and were
later found dead. I'm talking about Abbey Lynn Patterson, and
as we go to sirious today, another woman a shanty
Billy also making headlines with me right now, Bobby Maxwell,
(32:59):
Crime Stories, investigative reporter, Cheryl McCullum, Director of the Cold
Case Institute, and Dr Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining us out
of l A along with Alan Duke. The Duke also
in l A. First to you, Bobby Maxwell, thank you
for being with us. I want to talk first about
Abby Lynn Patterson. What do we know about her disappearance?
(33:21):
Abby actually disappeared on September five from her hometown of Lumberton,
North Carolina. She had been previously living in Jacksonville, Florida
for a few years, so recently had come back and
um had a good connection with her mom, a good relationship.
Said she was stepping out, she'd be back in an hour.
That hour went up, the mother didn't see her, and
she's been missing ever since. And once again, that was
(33:43):
since September five in Lumberton. In Lumberton, police say that
Abby Patterson was last seeing getting into a brown buick. Okay,
she sends five seven brown here, brown eyes. She's got
a birthmore on the back of her left sigh. She
was wearing brown shorts and a white shirt when she
(34:03):
was last seen, says she'll be gone for an hour,
never returns. Mom repeatedly, over and over and overcalls her
cell phone, which then goes straight to voicemail. Now, Cheryl McCollum,
you're the director of the Cold Case Institute. When a
phone goes directly to a voicemail, no ring, no nothing,
(34:24):
It just goes to voicemail, what does that mean? What
are the choices? Well, the batteries either dead, somebody destroyed
the phone, or somebody deliberately hit in the call. So me,
the key here is that brown viewing. She willingly got
in the car. So whoever that driver is is where
we start. That's where we start. For all I know
that was a ride to Target or to Walmart, although
(34:48):
I want to speak to the person in the brown
buick to find out where her next location was. On
her case, her missing person's case, the number tipline zero
six seven won three eight four five zero six seven
one three eight four five. She goes missing right there
on East ninth Street, eleven thirty a m. On a
(35:12):
Tuesday morning. After one hour, she tells her mom she's
gonna be back in one hour. Her mother calls her
in one hour, And in one hour, Cheryl McCollum, her
phone was already going directly to voicemail. Whatever was going
to happen had happened. I think within that one hour,
no question. And Nancy, it's going to be imperative that
(35:33):
law enforced me. Get on her social media. Look at
anybody that she you know, it's gonna take message to
or received the text message from. She went to meet someone,
No question about it. So again nine three Brown view it.
That is your whole money tree right there. Okay, let's
move forward to another woman missing, Ashanti Billy Bobby Maxwell,
(35:58):
Crime Stories, Investigate reporter, what can you tell me about Ashanti?
Ashanti is a nineteen year old originally from Maryland, Nancy,
and she was going to school in Virginia as a
culinary school there and Um actually worked for a blimpy
restaurant on a military base in that area as well.
She was expected in to work on September. The last
(36:22):
they saw of her was in her car through security
going into that military base, and reports are that she
was her car was seeing They couldn't tell if she
was in it, leaving a short time after that. She
never did show up at the workplace. And um, the
FBI was brought into the case because it was on
a military base. And sadly, she was found just recently
(36:44):
her body in Charlotte, North Carolina, over three hundred miles away.
Billy's body was found behind a church in Charlotte, North Carolina,
as Bobby Maxwell just reported, over three hundred miles away
from where she was last seen in Norfolk. Why why,
her family says, quote to the person or persons that
(37:06):
decided they wanted to take our baby away from us
and away from everyone that loved her, you are a coward.
That's what Billy's mother, Brandy said. Everyone. Please, I'm begging
everybody please pray for my baby. Please please prey for
(37:30):
Shinty Billy, my baby, She's not everything. Please pray for
my baby home today. Everyone, please share anyone you know
help me bring my baby a shanty hole. Please. It's
just I'm just thinking about why they're saying, Sheryl McCollum
(37:50):
that they cannot see whether she is the one driving
her car out on that surveillance video. I mean, come on,
we can figure we can see a rock on the
un an individual rock. We can see a footprint on
the moon, but we can't figure out who's driving the
car face backwards to get the last tag. But Nancy,
the thing is she was found three miles away. But
(38:13):
that's six hours driving time. That's an awful long way
for a stranger to drive a kidnap victim. So this
has a deal of it is being somewhat domestic, and
I been looking at a boyfriend or ex boyfriend. Investigators
find her cell phone that day in a Norfolk dumpster.
(38:33):
They later find her car abandoned. Okay, so somebody else
was driving that car and somebody got rid of her
cell phone right there on the spot. An intense search
for the teen girl ensued, and Billy's family forming a
search party to look for her, sending out flyers the works,
(38:53):
begging for help on Facebook. I'm looking at her picture
right now. She's absolutely beautiful. That day, she was scheduled
to show up at her job at a sandwich shop
at the Joint Expeditiary Base that's Little Creek at five
a m that Monday morning. She was a student at
the Art Institute of Virginia Beach. Last scene heading to work.
(39:16):
She never arrived. It's amazing to me that they haven't
found any DNA, or have they, Bobby Max Well, I mean,
we've got the car as most likely as secondary or
maybe even a primary crime scene. You have her body
now recovered dumped behind a church. It's very hard for
me to believe there's not any DNA. Obviously, Nancy, no
(39:39):
struggle on the base or or any kind of DNA
was showed around her workplace. And by the way, the
boyfriend does have an alabat. He was in training at
a military base in South Carolina, so he has been
ruled out. Um, but no DNA. And like you said,
a long long way to drive with someone who's fighting
to escape. If she's alive, if she's a life, a
(40:01):
sex assault and a murder could have taken place right there.
She was getting out of the car at five am
in the morning or earlier in the dark hour. She's
on a military base back in that car, and it
was just a matter of putting her in the trunk
and driving her to a dump site. Now, what do
we know, Sheryl McCollum about where her body was done
(40:22):
behind that church at Charlotte right A landscape employee found
her body behind the A. M. E. Zion Church. UM,
not covered, not a shallow gray, just out in the open.
And again, Nancy, I'm going to tell you, that's an
awful long way for a stranger to take somebody. And
usually people tend to go places they know, So again
(40:44):
I would look for people that knew that area and
possibly even knew that church. You're right about that was
she clothed? Do we know that? Bobby Maxwell? Don't have
any information on whether she was clothed or not. Um No,
no word on any kind of assault or anything of
that matter. You know, was hard to believe, Sheryl McColl
I'm talking about you can't figure out who was driving
the car on surveillance video. You remember the killer clown case.
(41:07):
We were talking about a twenty seven year old murder
where a female dressed as a clown shows up at
a woman's door and with balloons and flowers, and when
she answers the door, shoots her in the face dead.
Twenty seven years pass and suddenly with advances in DNA technique,
they can determine who shot her according to DNA, And
(41:31):
we don't know about any DNA on this girl's body.
Why why is that? Maybe they're not releasing it yet, Nancy,
because they haven't released the cause of death either, And
that's probably not a bad idea with an open investigation
like this. But there's also a chance they could get
a latent print off the cell phone whoever threw that
cellphone in the dumpster, they could get a decent print
off that, or if they even were stupid enough to
use the cell phone, or prints on the car, around
(41:54):
the trunk, on the handle, around the ignition. Remember in
the terse in this Stephen Avery case, there's victim Teresa Hallback.
There was DNA on the ignition, the ignition Cheryl McCullum
where he's hunched over trying to start Tersa Hallback's car.
He left DNA there, exactly, You can't leave. Yeah, he
(42:15):
clearly used her vehicle. She didn't did her own car.
So as he used her car to transport her, which
is possible, it leads a short distance. And he had
to touch the trunk to Saren will the rear view, Mira,
the gearshift. He touched a lot of things to Dr
Bethany Marshall way in you know, this was a military
base with a lot of men. And when you told
(42:36):
me that the restaurant where she was working was located
on the military basis, beautiful twenty year old art student,
I just got a chill up my spine. I mean,
I just thought, from parents perspective, how vulnerable she was
working there, and what I would want to know, since
there seems to be perhaps some familiarity between her and
(42:57):
the abductor, who was going in and out of that restaurant.
I would want to look at all the receipts. I
would want to look at who was frequenting the restaurant.
I would want to look at her cell phone to see,
you know, who was texting, who was calling, look on
her social media because it seems to me, if there
was some familiarity between her and the perpetrator, that somebody
(43:18):
would have been grooming her, right, that somebody would have
targeted her. She would have been on somebody's side, and um,
so that the person would have gained her trust enough
to have persuaded her to get in the car with them.
So who could that person have been on this military base.
It doesn't seem random, It doesn't seem like somebody just
(43:38):
you know, nabbed her as she was going into work.
It seems like she knew the perpetrator. You know. Lumberton
investigators state that there are three other women who vanished
from the very same town as Abby in separate incidents,
and they were all discovered murdered slain within the last year.
(44:04):
How can this not be connected, Bobby Maxwell, Yes, Nancy,
and and not just the past year, but since April,
within the same few blocks of each other. Christina Bennett
thirty two, Rhonda Jones thirty six, they were found across
the street from each other. And then in June another woman,
Megan Oxendine, her body was found just three blocks from
(44:25):
the original to Sheryl mccollumb, three women, Christina Bennett thirty two,
Rhonda Jones thirty six, Megan oxen Dine, all vanished from
the same town in separate incidents, all discovered slain in
the same calendar year. Now I've got Abby missing from
(44:46):
what a mile away. Maybe it sounds like it's strayed
out of the two killer playbooks. I'm very concerned about
her well being, obviously, but again she's probably going to
be found within a mile of that area. You know,
in this North Carolina town, family still looking for answers
and the disappearance of three women were dashed, all their
(45:10):
hopes dashed when the women were found slain. To Dr
Bethany Marshall, you know that Abby Lynn Patterson's family has
got to be so distraught, wondering is she the fourth
in a series where then you know a couple of
miles from each other, You know, Nancy, They must be devastated.
And the fact that her mother called her cell phone,
(45:33):
it went straight to voicemail, and then her daughter was
never seen or heard from again. Can you imagine from
a mother's perspective what that must feel like. And when
Sheryl McCollum said this is out of the serial killer playbook,
the first thought that crossed my mind was, well that
the serial killer, then the perpetrator likely did not know
(45:53):
the victims, because we know serial killers do not groom
their victims in the same way that the serial rape
might say that somebody who might commit an abduction, rape,
homicide might, you know, sort of in its incursory way
know the victim. A serial killer will just drive through
the streets, troll through the streets, and the looking process
(46:15):
will be very satishized and very exciting. For them, and
then they will pick a victim because that victim is
appealing to them in some way. But the victim will
most likely be a stranger, so be more difficult for
the police to sift through the clues and find the
perpetrator if he's a serial killer. And I'm worried about
more women being at risk in this small town. You
(46:35):
know another clue regarding her clothing. Right after Ashanti goes missing,
I remember her body was found behind the church hundreds
of miles away. A two hour search ensued in volunteers
found a pink shoe and a sweatshirt. Okay, that's the
(46:56):
girl where herself? I was found later that day in
the dumpster three mile us away from the base, and
neighbors spotted her car at a dead end road. Okay,
so that was planted there on purpose. It had been
there for several days. We'll listen to this, Uh, Cheryl
mccollumb Cold Case Institute, what do you make of this?
Then a volunteer found the other pink shoe near where
(47:19):
her car was found. So one pink she found near
where she goes missing, the other pink she found near
where her car was found. So that tells me there
was a mighty struggle, no question, Nancy. This this is
the kind of thing where law enforcement those are easy
(47:42):
not to connect, and it also gives law enforcement, you know,
for bread comes to follow where the fight happened. She
continue to fight. That may tell us she was still
alive at that point. Or it could have been an
issue of the purp throwing things away, because there's a sweatshirt,
there is a tennisie here, a tennis shee you near
her car. There was a phone charger disposed of as well.
(48:05):
It could have been somebody just throwing things out. But
why would they bother to throw things out? They could
just leave them in the car. So it seems to
it bespeaks more of a struggle to me than anything else.
So what we know is a shanty was found dead,
the other women dead, some within blocks at each other,
(48:26):
and now another girl, Abby Lynn Patterson, is missing. So
what do we do now, Cheryl McCullum. Nancy, they're gonna
have to just comb the area. Abby again, she's not
gonna be far and I just do not think they're
gonna find her alive, but she will be in that
same vicinity. Cheryl McCullum directed with the Cold Case Institute
(48:48):
with me Dr Bethany Marshall and Bobby Maxwell. Crime Stories
contributing reporter Cheryl McCullum. This guy and the brown buick, Okay,
we already know three women are dead within blocks of
each other. Where do we go to find the driver
of that Brown buick? Nazy under the quote you will
(49:10):
be in you said a long time ago, Suan, don't
swim in the sewer. We have got to go with
this type of individual would go ceedy bars, back alley,
the gutter. We literally have got to talk to drug dealers, pimps,
and prostitute to find out who knows give perfect The
search goes on for Abbey Lynn Patterson as well as
(49:35):
for the killer of Ashanti Billy Nancy Grace Crime Stories
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Host
Nancy Grace
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