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October 17, 2023 30 mins

The Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D.C. has a fake crystal skull. And so does the British Museum in London, as does Paris's Quai Branly Museum. As of 2019, it was estimated there are more than a dozen crystal skulls known to exist. Long considered pre-Columbian relics, they've also inspired theories about the occult, aliens, and psychic abilities. But the reality is, none of it's true. Meet Eugène Boban, the real provenance of crystal skulls.

 

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Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Criminalia, a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership
with iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
The Smithsonian Institution in Washington, d C. Has a fake
crystal skull, and so does the British Museum in London,
as does the K. Bromley Museum in Paris. As of
twenty nineteen, it's estimated there are roughly a dozen to
perhaps as many as thirty crystal skulls known to exist,

(00:35):
and long considered pre Columbian relics. It's difficult to pinpoint
how many are out there. They're kept in private collections mainly,
with just a few on public display in museums. And
they're essentially exactly what you think human skulls carved out
of quartz, and they range from a couple of inches
in height to about the size of a bowling ball.

(00:57):
They're wrapped up in history, lore, and Hollywood. They inspired
Steven Spielberg's two thousand and eight action adventure movie Indiana
Jones and the Kingdom of a Crystal Skull. They inspire
theories about the occult, aliens and psychic abilities, but the
reality is none of it's true. The part about them

(01:17):
being skulls made of quartz crystal. That part is true.
Mostly they're actually just trinkets, like the kind you'd pick
up as a tourist on vacation. But in the late
nineteenth century many were sold by a French dealer and
swindler as authentic artifacts. Welcome to Criminalia, I'm Maria Tremarcy.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
And I'm Holly Frye. Public interest in ancient cultures was
high in the mid to late eighteen hundreds. Museums were
eager to please, and a man named Uzen Bauban had
what they wanted. Boban's name will appear throughout our story
of these skulls because, and considering this is the season

(01:57):
of forgeries, this is hardly a boiler alert. It was
not as tech's or aliens or something supernatural behind their existence.
Beaubanc was their provenance. He originally left France at the
age of nineteen to join California's gold rush, but he
failed to strike it rich. By eighteen fifty seven, he

(02:19):
was in Mexico City, passing himself off as an antiquarian
and art dealer. He befriended everyone he could and listened
to their stories, and he learned to speak both Spanish
as well as Nahuatl, which is the Aztec language. He
lived there in Mexico for years.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
His arrival in Mexico coincidentally happened to be when the
War of Reform also known as the Mexican Civil War began,
but that effort to overthrow the government failed. During a
subsequent conflict known as the War of the French Intervention
from eighteen sixty two to eighteen sixty seven, Napoleon the Third,
seeing opportunity to expand the French Empire in what was

(02:59):
considered the New World, invaded Mexico. It also followed Mexican
President Benito Juarez's suspension of interest payments to foreign countries, which,
as you may imagine, ruffled a few feathers. In eighteen
sixty five, Boban, who at this point was deeply steeped
in the local culture, was named an archaeological consultant to

(03:23):
Napoleon the Third's Scientific Commission, a team that surveyed the
country and then produced many illustrations for scientific reports as
well as travel books. The expedition also collected Mexican and
Central American art and artifacts for France. Worked that Boban
then parleyed into a business of exporting Maya and Aztec objects,

(03:44):
he began calling himself the antiquarian to the Emperor. By
the late eighteen sixties, he had acquired, along with numerous
archaeological artifacts, a sizeable collection of religious art bought or stolen,
you pick. The Science Commission sent a selection of his
pre Columbian artifacts to France for show at the eighteen

(04:04):
sixty seven Paris Exposition in an effort to illustrate the
achievements of that ancient empire.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
In March of eighteen sixty nine, Beauban sailed from Veracruz
to Paris after twelve years in Mexico. His friend, doctor
Francisco Fenelon, wished him safe travels when he left, but
also wished him the successful sale of his collection, writing quote,
flood France with your curiosities and squeeze all the ugly

(04:32):
metal out of them that you can in exchange, and
he did. During the nineteenth century, there was an increased
interest among the public and among scholars regarding Mesoamerican sites
and artifacts, and that led to an increase in the
trade of pre Columbian objects and fake pre Columbian objects

(04:54):
through catalogs and exhibitions. Boba sold artifacts to both collectors
and museums. He also kept a shop in Paris called
Antiquite Mexican and exhibited many of his objects at the
Ethnographic Museum in the Palais de Trocadero in Paris. The
Trocadero was the first anthropological museum in Paris and the

(05:14):
precursor to Paris's Museum of Man. He wanted to sell
his collection quickly so he could return to Mexico with
a small fortune in hand.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
It's a little bit early to take a break for
a word from our sponsor, but we're going to do it.
When we're back, we'll talk about how the crystal skulls
have long been misidentified as genuine, as well as how
each of the museums we mentioned came to have them
in their collections.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
Welcome back to Criminilia. Let's start talking about how modern
researchers figured out the truth, or at least some of
it behind them crystal skulls.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
Though there are more than one to two dozen known
crystal skulls out there, we're going to tell the stories
of three specific ones, the ones that helped researchers figure
out the truth.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
So that brings us to our first crystal skull, the
one at the British Museum. This crystal skull made its
debut in eighteen eighty one in Boban's Paris shop. He
later exhibited it, but after he tried to sell it
to the National Museum of Mexico, claiming that it had
been excavated in Vera Cruz, he was outed by a

(06:33):
curator there who suspected the item was fake. Accused of
smuggling antiquities, Boban quickly left Mexico again, but this time
he did not return to Paris. He opened a new
antiquity shop, but this time in New York City, and
that turned out to be a very good decision in
regard to the Aztec artifact forgery business.

Speaker 2 (06:56):
It's there where he sold a crystal skull to American
entrepur and real estate developer George Sisson. It then passed
to American George Kuntz, who purchased it for one thousand
dollars on behalf of Tiffany and Company at an auction
held in New York City. At the age of twenty three,
Kuntz joined Tiffany's as a gem expert. Everything written about

(07:18):
him suggests he was a gem prodigy, and he remained
there as vice president of Gemology and noted mineralogist until
his death in nineteen thirty two. The skull displayed at
the American Association for the Advancement of Science. Years later,
it was auctioned off by Tiffany's and bought by the
British Museum in eighteen ninety eight. There it was displayed

(07:39):
as a genuine az Tech artifact next to legitimate olmech
Maya and az Tech objects in the museum's pre Columbian collection,
because they thought it was.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
Bouba also sold a crystal skull to French ethnologist, collector
and explorer Alphonse Pinard, who in turn later donated the
skull and much of his collection to the Trocadero. In
two thousand and six, the majority of the museum's collection
passed to the CA Bronli Museum. It would later be
discovered that Pinart had not actually organically collected the items

(08:14):
that had been donated in his name to the museum.
He had purchased all of those objects from Beaubon. This
crystal skull is now known as the Paris Skull, and
it continues to be housed at the cabron Le Museum.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
Museums weren't ignorant about fakes, but reports suggest the problem
was often that they didn't have enough information to identify
and avoid bringing forgeries into their collections, and because of that,
they started relying on subject experts for help in evaluating artifacts.
And that's how Bobon got his foot in the door.

(08:49):
He built a reputation as an expert in Mexican antiquities,
and museum curators trusted him to arrange deals on their behalf.
When it came to an artifact such as one of
these crystal skulls, for instance, It's unlikely that curators would
have identified a forgery because at that time in history,
there wasn't a lot of good information about as tech culture,

(09:10):
nor do they have the tools we have today to investigate.
Our French con artist took advantage of that and then
hid the skull's origins through fake purchase histories.

Speaker 1 (09:20):
After American archaeologist William Henry Holmes visited Mexico City in
eighteen eighty four, he saw what he called quote relic
shops on every corner, filled with fake ceramic vessels and figurines.
The influx of fake objects in private and public collections
was becoming such a problem that in eighteen eighty six

(09:41):
Holmes wrote an article called the Trade in Spurious Mexican
Antiquities for Science magazine.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
Nearly all of these crystal skulls have at times been
misidentified as genuine as Tech, Toll, Tech, Mystek, or occasionally Maya,
but none reflect the artistic or stylistic characteristics of any
of those cultures. For instance, as Tech and Toltec versions
of death heads were carved in basalt, sometimes covered with stucco,

(10:11):
and almost always painted. Additionally, the Aztecs displayed the skulls
of sacrificial humans on racks, impaling each horizontally through the
parietal temporal region of where the brain would have been.
The Mistech two occasionally fabricated skulls, but they were created
out of gold, not quartz. These objects had skull like

(10:33):
faces with intact eyes, noses, and ears, and the Maya,
while they too carved skulls, they did so in relief
on limestone.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
Our third example is a crystal skull that just showed
up in the mail room of the Smithsonian one day.
Back in nineteen ninety two. A heavy package addressed to
the nonexistent Smithsonian Institute Curator Mesoamerican Museum, Washington, DC, was
delivered to the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History. An

(11:05):
unsigned letter inside the box stated, this Aztec crystal skull,
purported to be part of the Porfyrio Diaz collection, was
purchased in Mexico in nineteen sixty. I am offering it
to the Smithsonian without consideration. Richard Alburn, then curator of
the Institution's Hispanic American collections, contacted Jane Walsh, an anthropologist

(11:30):
and researcher specializing in Mesoamerican archaeology and ethno history at
the Museum of Natural History. Did she he wanted to
know know anything at all about what he described as
an eerie, milky white crystal skull that in size was
about as big as a football helmet. Walsh knew of

(11:52):
the crystal skull on display at the British Museum, but
not much else. Alburn offered the skull to her department
for the National Collection. If it was a genuine pre
Columbian Mesoamerican artifact, it would not only be very rare,
but also very special.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
According to Walsh, she had some doubts about the authenticity
of the skull from the moment the package arrived at
the Smithsonian of the time period and the skulls, she
has stated, quote after Mexican independence, a lot of outsiders
started coming into the country and collecting historic pieces from museums.
These collectors, she added, quote, created a demand, and local

(12:33):
artisans then created a supply. Some of the things sold
to these foreigners may not have been made to intentionally deceive,
but certain dealers claimed that they were ancient.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
When they first surfaced in the nineteenth century. Experts at
the time attributed these skulls to various quote ancient Mesoamerican cultures,
and that was that, roughly a century after Beaubon's skullduggery
to chemical analysis techniques helped museum researchers determine whether or
not the skulls were authentic, but modern investigation also helped

(13:09):
track down who Walsh initially called the quote mysterious obtainer
of rare antiquities. But who was he? This person who
surely knew the origin of the skulls?

Speaker 2 (13:21):
We read a description that Walsh's sleuthing expedition was worthy
of mister Holmes and that's dead on accurate. Walsh began
with the skull she knew about the one at the
British Museum. She contacted them to discuss crystal skulls, and
that conversation proved to be the catalyst for researchers on

(13:42):
both sides of the Atlantic to begin the investigation that
finally proved these objects were fakes. Sixty years earlier, some
experts had begun to doubt the authenticity of the crystal skulls,
according to Margaret Sachs, a conservation scientist at the British Museum,
but for a long time time researchers quote didn't have

(14:02):
the scientific means to follow up.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
The British Museum and Smithsonian researchers, including Walsh and Sachs,
began collecting evidence that their skulls were likely not of
Aztec origin, a project that continued through the nineteen nineties
and the two thousands. A small bit about the provenance
of the skull in London came from an old catalog
entry for the British Museum that said, in its listing

(14:26):
quote little is known of its history and nothing of
its origin. It was brought from Mexico by a Spanish
officer sometime before French intervention in Mexico between eighteen sixty
two and eighteen sixty seven. It was then sold to
an English collector, after whose death it passed into the
hands of Eugienbauban before being sold to George Sisson in

(14:48):
New York City. Those dates are interesting because the research
team went on to discover that there was no evidence
of any crystal skulls before the eighteen sixties.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
Beginning with just simple observation, Walsh wrote of the British
Museum's skull that quote, the proportions were off, the teeth
and circular depressions, that the temples did not look right,
and overall it seemed too rounded and polished. And about
those teeth in aztech art, the research team noted teeth

(15:23):
were represented as they looked like in people's mouths at
the time. The skulls teeth should have reflected that they
came from an era without modern dentistry, but instead the
teeth were perfect, too perfect, wrote Sacks.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
A close look at the surface of the skulls revealed
nothing that would support the theory that they were pre
Columbian artifacts. Researchers chose an authentic Mesoamerican crystal goblet from
the National Institute of Anthropology and History in Mexico City
as their benchmark. The goblet had been recovered from excavations

(15:58):
at Monte Alban and Wahaka. SACS examined the skulls using
a high powered scanning electron microscope and learned a few
interesting things in comparison with that legitimate goblet. The surface
of the authentic goblet had irregular etch marks that was
a sign that the piece was carved with handheld tools,

(16:19):
but the surface of the skulls in question had regular
etch marks that could only have been made with modern
carving implements such as a rotary wheel and hard abrasive
things that appeared long after the Aztec Empire.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
The team also discovered that the British Museum's skull had
what researchers called quote worm like inclusions in the rock crystal.
Ramen Spectroscopy is a technique that analyzes the interaction of
light and matter to determine a material's makeup, and researchers
used that method to determine that these inclusions were actually

(16:56):
an iron rich chloroid mineral. While it's found one rock
crystal native to Brazil or Madagascar. It's not found in
Central America or Mexico. Researchers also noted a small deposit
of something within the Smithsonians skull. With X ray diffraction,
a technique that can determine the crystallographic structure, chemical composition,

(17:20):
and physical properties of a material, they determined that there
was a deposit of silicon carbide inside. Silicon carbide is
a synthetic abrasive that's commonly used in stone carving workshops,
but not until the mid twentieth century.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
We're going to pause here for a word from our sponsors,
and when we return, we'll talk about the examination of
the Paris skull and the conclusions the research team came
to regarding all three of these skulls.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
Welcome back to Criminalia. So let's talk about this Paris skull.

Speaker 1 (18:08):
So then there was the investigation into the providence of
the Paris skull. This crystal skull was part of Alphonse
Pinart's collection, purchased directly from Beaubant and today housed in
the Que Bronli Museum. Walsh traveled to Paris to examine
the artifact with the French research team. This skull stands

(18:29):
about four inches high, and it has a large hole
drilled vertically through its center. There is a comparable, though
smaller skull about two and a half inches high in existence,
and that smaller version serves as the base for a crucifix.
Experts believe the larger Paris version may have had a
similar use. The Paris skull, like the other two, did

(18:53):
not pass muster when scientific tests were applied. It was
in Paris where Walsh met Marie Franz fauvee Bertolaux, an
archaeologist at the Museum of Man and curator of pre
Columbian archaeology. Through her, Walsh heard the name Eugene Beaubanc
for the first time on a small pamphlet entitled Museo Scientifico,

(19:15):
which advertised a private museum Boban opened in Mexico City
in the mid eighteen eighties. One of the items listed
in that museum was a crystal skull called a quote
masterpiece of lapidary technology and quote unique in the world.
This was the moment, Walsh stated where she knew that

(19:36):
Bauban was the key, yet he remained in the shadows.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
And she would be the one to drag him out
of those shadows. Walsh wrote that through found correspondence, she
was able to learn about Beauban's business activities, including sales,
as well as who he traded with and which museums
had purchased items from him, and she'd gleaned that his
collections se to have been significant in size. Eventually, through

(20:05):
things like newspaper articles and business receipts, she was able
to put some pieces together about his life in France,
Mexico and in the United States.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
But it was several letters exchanged between Beaubon and George
Kuns remember he purchased a skull for Tiffany's in the
late eighteen hundreds, that held a clue. The letters included
a note about retrieving a box for a skull, and
that raised eyebrows among those investigating. To Walsh and the

(20:35):
research team, this was additional evidence that at the least
the British Museum skull had most likely originated with Beaubon.
She would then go on to find in her research
that he had sold crystal skulls to dealers who then
sold them to collectors and museums more than one hundred
years ago. Walsh said of the discovery quote, most of

(20:56):
the objects he sold were legitimate, but his big ticket
idea were for the most part fake.

Speaker 2 (21:03):
The conclusion there was no direct tie to Mexico for
these three skulls, except through Bavon of their skull, the
British Museum wrote, quote, it bears traces of the use
of tools unknown in the Americas before the arrival of
the Europeans. These traces in the high polish of its

(21:23):
surface indicate that it was carved using traditional European techniques. Similarly,
Walsh wrote quote, all of the crystal skulls had been
carved with modern coated lapidary wheels, using industrial diamonds, and
polished with modern machinery. The skulls were estimated to be
from the mid to late nineteenth century, though because of

(21:45):
the silicon carbide found inside, Walsh felt that the Smithsonian
skull might be even younger, carved perhaps in the nineteen fifties.
While it's clear that these are not pre Columbian artifacts,
as you can tell, there are still some mysteries surrounding
the crystal skulls.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
As for the mystery of where Beauban acquired them, Walsh
has theorized that he may have taken many of his
objects from aging Christian churches in Mexico during his travels,
especially during his expeditions and during the ongoing wars that
were happening while he lived there. But there is also
evidence to suggest that the skulls were made in the

(22:23):
workshops of dar Oberstein, a German town renowned for crafting
courtz objects. Further examination and investigation led researchers to this
interesting fact. Though there almost always attributed to pre Columbian
Mesoamerican cultures, not a single crystal skull is found to
come from a documented archaeological site. The team declared all

(22:48):
known crystal skulls must be fakes. Over the decades, additional
research has found a few of the allegedly crystal skulls
are actually glass. A few of them are even made
of resin.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
The crystal skulls have undergone serious scholarly scrutiny, but they
also tap into our imaginations. Non scientific theories about their
origins are abundant, and they've been subject to much speculation
over the years. Some people still believe the skulls are
the handiwork of ancient Maya or as tech cultures. Some
believe they originated on a sunken continent or the legendary

(23:25):
island of Atlantis. Others believe they came from a far
away galaxy, proof that extraterrestrials visited Earth and specifically the Aztecs.
They're also the subject of discussion on occult sites and
social media. Pseudo theories about them claim a lot of things,
that they have paranormal powers, that they can cure disease,

(23:46):
and that they can give you psychic abilities, including premonitions.
Joshua Shapiro, co author of Mysteries of the Crystal Skulls Revealed,
has written quote, we believe the crystal skulls are a
form of computer which are able to record energy and
vibration that occur around them. The skull will pictorially replay
all events or images of the people who have come

(24:09):
in contact with them, meaning they contain the history of
our world. Most archaeologists and other scientists, though, are skeptical
of the paranormal theories surrounding these skulls.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
Although the British Museum admits and exhibits its crystal skull
as an example of a fake artifact, others still describe
them as genuine. Mexico's National Museum for example, identifies its
crystal skulls as the work of Aztec and Mistech artisans. Ultimately,
Walsh stated the truth behind at least a handful of

(24:43):
these crystal skulls may have gone to the grave with Beaubon.
Because he dealt in the sale of these crystal skulls
as well as other pre Columbian artifacts, he is often
considered the source of all crystal skulls, but there isn't
any evidence to support that. He surprisingly may have hinted
that there was something suspicious going on in the crystal

(25:05):
skull business in an interview with an American newspaper in
nineteen hundred, where he stated, quote numbers of so called
rock crystal pre Columbian skulls have been so adroitly made
as almost to defied detection, and have been pulled off
as genuine upon the experts of some of the principal
museums of Europe. What he leaves out is by me

(25:30):
right back at you, Eugen.

Speaker 2 (25:36):
That quote is really something talking about yourself.

Speaker 1 (25:39):
Why that's pretty great. The idea of him as a
sneaky devil who is like I'm hiding in plain sight.
I just told you exactly here's my catalog. It's really
your fault at this point. And he delights me so
much that I'm naming this week's Bogus bev after all,
are you yeah? We're calling it Boban's Secret. And this

(26:01):
is one where I wanted to think, of course, because
Mexico and Mexican culture figures so prominently in this one.
I wanted to do something tied to a Mexican favorite
of cocktail culture. And I thought, we've done one that
looked like a margarita already. I thought it would be
fun to do something that looked like a paloma. If

(26:23):
you don't know what a paloma is, it's very delicious.
A paloma is made with tequila, grapefruit juice, lime juice,
simple syrup, and club soda. That's kind of a variation
according to some folks. Some people say the original poloma
needs to have grapefruit soda, which is my preferred version
in it is doing.

Speaker 2 (26:42):
Which I love. So I am on this.

Speaker 1 (26:45):
Oh, I don't like grapefruit, but I love grapefruit soda.
I don't understand it.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
Me neither, but I love Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
For Boball's Secret, we want to make something that looks
like a paloma that has that nice orange peachy look
to it and has some bubbles and is delightful. So
here's what we're doing. We're gonna keep the tequila. It
just feels right. We haven't done a tequila drink in
a while, a while. This one, Listen, this one surprised
me in a good way. It's gonna start with an

(27:12):
ounce and a half of pineapple juice and then a
half ounce of lemon juice, and then you're gonna add
and some of this is taster's choice, and some of
this is color matching because pineapple juices don't always have
the same color, so you wanna use your artistic eye

(27:32):
to gauge. But you want to use one eighth of
a tea spoon too, maybe a little more of paprika,
and you're gonna add that in and that will bring
the yellow up to that orange, slightly pinky color. And
then an ounce and a half of Repisodo tequila, and
then you're gonna shake that in your shaker like we
do so many drinks. You're gonna shake it a lot

(27:53):
because you really want to incorporate that paprika. The lemon
juice is gonna help break down the little granules of it,
but you really want to give it a vigorous shape.
You're going to strain that into a Collin's glass and
you're going to top it with a couple ounces of
club soda, and then, if you're me, you're going to
taste it and immediately say, we must always have paprika

(28:15):
infused pineapple juice at the back bar because it's delicious.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
I bet it's delicious. I did not try paprika and
a drink until you introduced me to it.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
It's delicious, and I don't know that I have done
paprika and used pineapple juice before. It does something different
that it doesn't taste like anything you're expecting. It doesn't
taste pineapple e quite. There's the sweetness and there is
something that has a tropical vibe in there. The paprika
shifts the gear so much that it just tastes like

(28:46):
something completely new to my palette. Anyway, and I love it,
and it's great for people that I think you would
like it because it cuts the sweetness and it's not
a hyper sweetness.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
It doesn't seem like it would be. Yeah. I like
fruity drinks, but not a lot. I like simple syrups,
so this sounds like it right for me.

Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah. The flavor is very light, and it's it's one
of those things that I just feel like it's a
little dangerous because to my palette, and I'm not the
biggest tequila drinker, it obscures all of the flavor of tequila,
and I'm like, oh, oh, this could be a danger
to myself and others if you make these, please be careful.
The mocktail is easiest. Probably You're just going to leave

(29:24):
out the tequila and up the soda a little bit,
that's all. And then it's like a really easy sipper.
That's when I will put in like a thirty two
ounce giant thing and just be sloping all day because
that's delicious. You could just make that in a picture.
And then if you have a mixed group of drinkers
and non drinkers, you can add your tequila or not,

(29:45):
depending on what anybody wants, which is nice anyway. That
is Boban's secret, And the secret is paprika and pineapple
is really delicious together. How they recommend it, I'm not
kidding when I'm like, I have to set aside some
sort of where that is all that's going on forever
in my backbar, because I could see that going well

(30:06):
with like a bourbon vodka and zpas. With a gin,
it's gonna be pretty interesting because that floral the floral
notes of a gin are going to pull out those
flavors in a different way. I'm just I'm excited to
play with pepperga and pineapple juice. We're also excited that
we still get to share these stories with you of
crimes of days past, and we hope that you will

(30:28):
join us again. Next week, We'll be right back here
with another another forgery and another forged drink. Criminalia is
a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, please visit the iHeartRadio app,

(30:53):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
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