‘Where Sick Folks Get Well’: Norman Baker Couldn’t Cure Cancer. Period.

Norman Baker was an entrepreneur, a pioneering radio personality, and a fake doctor. He was a masterful propagandist, and through his radio station and multiple tabloid publications, he manipulated American anxieties about everything from politics to alleged ills of vaccinations. But his biggest claim was that he could cure cancer, in just six weeks, with his own elixir -- and your money.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Criminalia, a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership
with iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Norman Glenwood Baker is in the hot seat today. Baker
was an entrepreneur, a pioneering radio personality, and a fake
doctor who claimed he could cure cancer. He was a
masterful propagandist, and through his radio station and the general
lack of oversight regarding what went out over the airwaves,

(00:34):
he manipulated American anxieties about everything from politics to alleged
ills vaccinations. It said he earned an estimated ten million dollars,
and that's during the Great Depression, before a conviction ended
his career in nineteen forty. Welcome to Criminalia. I'm Maria Tremarky.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
And I'm Holly Frye. Born in eighteen eighty two in Muscatine, Iowa,
Norman was the youngest of ten children. His father, John Baker,
was an engineer who owned the Baker Manufacturing Company in town.
But here's what stood out to us about John. He
also reportedly had one hundred and twenty six patents to
his name, so that man had ideas. Norman's mother, Francis,

(01:17):
was a writer before she married. Norman left school at
the age of sixteen, and he began his career in
a totally legit manner that actually doesn't suggest the career
path he would eventually take. He started working as a machinist.
For years, he worked as a tool and die maker.
He made his fortune though, as a vaudeville performer and

(01:38):
as the inventor of a whistling mechanical instrument and by
pretending he could cure cancer.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
Baker transitioned from his work as a machinist to the
vaudeville stage after attending a performance by a Professor Flint,
who was surely not at all a professor of anything.
Flint's Magic Show was about quote mental suggestion, and it
inspired Baker to produce his own version. He had a

(02:06):
little bit of a slow start, but his show did
catch on with audiences and he became a hit on
the vaudeville circuit.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
That show had a successful four year run, and it
ended only when Baker decided to try a new career path,
this time as a musical instrument maker. Baker had a
lot of ideas, so the apple may not have fallen
far from the tree. Recall, his father had more than
one hundred patents to his name. Baker brought his new

(02:34):
invention to life in his brother's machine shop. It was
an air calliophone, as he called it, that was a
smaller portable calliope for carnivals and outdoor advertisers. And it
was just what it sounds like, a calliope that was
powered by compressed air rather than the traditional use of
steam to operate it. Through his new business, the Tangly

(02:56):
Manufacturing Company, he sold them for five hundred dollars in
nineteen fourteen, but an advertisement that appeared a few years
later listed its selling price as a smidge over one
thousand dollars. There was an audience for his instrument, and
he had found it. In nineteen fifteen, he decided to
quit the vaudeville circuit to begin manufacturing the Tangley caliophone

(03:18):
full time. And not one to sit still, he soon
expanded his operations into a mail order business, and through
that he sold everything from his caliophone to overalls, to coffee,
live plants, and even bedding. He even sold trained canaries.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
His manufacturing and mail order businesses were very successful, and
he reportedly made upwards of two hundred thousand dollars a year.
After a fire destroyed the calliophone factory in Muscatine in
nineteen twenty Baker, by all accounts, was devastated. But Baker
was also a guy who always saw opportunities. He launched

(03:59):
a mail order art business, the Tangley School of Art.
As part of this money making scheme, his students were
expected to pay for their classes as well as cover
framing costs for their art and any and all other
art supplies. His correspondence school was a hit, grossing amounts
exceeding seventy five thousand dollars over three years. And the

(04:19):
thing about Baker and his school was this, he was
totally upfront that he had no artistic ability himself, stating
he quote couldn't paint to save his life. And yet
he had almost three thousand students on the books.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
A few years later, so that now puts us. In
nineteen twenty five, Baker again changed his career, this time
after hearing Shannandoah seedsman Henry Fields radio broadcast. Field built
a radio station on top of his seed house, and
he had begun broadcasting quote country entertainment and information. Henry

(04:56):
also used this new medium to market his seed business.
Radio at this point was a whole new world filled
with money making potential, and Baker took notice.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
Let's get a little context on this broadcast. Radio was
really pretty new. Pittsburgh's Westinghouse Electric and Manufacturing Company transmitted
the first scheduled broadcast on November two, nineteen twenty they
announced the Hardincocks presidential election results. Field owned one of
fewer than three hundred radio stations in the United States

(05:30):
at the time. The call letters his station was assigned
were KF NF or, as Field called it, keep friendly,
never frown.

Speaker 1 (05:40):
So after hearing field station, the next logical step for
Baker was that he got himself into radio. He met
with the Muscatine Chamber of Commerce and he offered to
build a radio station to quote popularized Muscatine throughout the world.
He also promised that if he built the station, he
would promote Muscatine as an investment opportunity for businesses, and

(06:02):
the Chamber of Commerce was very happy to oblige his request.
Baker postured that his radio station would be a quote
beacon of light for the masses, the hordes of farmers
and laborers and small businessmen, as well as humanity in general.
Big promises Yes, He built that station and began broadcasting

(06:24):
a lineup of live music, agricultural reports, and shows where
he shared his own colorful opinions. The call letters for
Baker's new radio station were k TNT, which he turned
into the slogan Know the Naked Truth. His first show
aired on Thanksgiving Day of nineteen twenty five. Radio was

(06:46):
really coming into its own just a few years later.
In nineteen thirty, more than forty five percent of American
households owned a radio, and then nearly doubled. By the
end of that decade, more American homes had radio that
had telephones.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
Baker timed his personal show as part of the evening broadcast,
specifically targeting the time when most families would be sitting
down to dinner and listening to the radio. He didn't
just talk to his audience, he preached to them. His
anti establishment populist messages were also full of anti intellectual,

(07:22):
anti Semitic, and anti Catholic rantings. Baker was a guy
who saw conspiracies in everything. His business competitors and local
newspapers were publishing lies about him, so he claimed, in
an attempt to shut down Quote the Truth, people loved it.
Though they loved him. He took on a new character,

(07:43):
a hero for Muscatine's workers. Baker was riding this high
and then gained even greater prestige when he broadcast on
behalf of Herbert Hoover's nineteen twenty eight presidential campaign. Hoover,
of course, we know, won that election. After Hoover later
credited Baker for helping him win the Midwest, Baker visited

(08:03):
the White House, and Hoover participated in a publicity stunt
for Baker by ceremoniously kicking off a new publication Baker's
tabloid newspaper, the Midwest Free Press.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
Scores of radio stations began popping up, and it seemed
like they all had a quack salesman ready to sell
you something. Wam in Newark, New Jersey, for instance, regularly
advertised junk contraptions such as the Thenoid, which was basically
a clone of another quack device called the Ionico. These

(08:36):
products were essentially electric belts and allegedly could cure everything
from asthma to sciatica to Verico's veins that allegedly is
doing the heavy lifting. They couldn't do any of that.
There was a new growing problem afoot. Fraudulent medical advertising
was becoming super prevalent on the radio.

Speaker 2 (08:58):
On the air, Baker didn't hesitate to quite regularly use
his station as a platform to disparage both organizations and
individuals with whom he disagreed. Despite having never received any
medical training or formal education, he lectured on things like
the negative effects of fluoridation on drinking water, that aluminum

(09:19):
pots and pans were toxic, and that vaccinations were worthless
and were a plot by doctors to fleece innocent people.
In fact, his anti vaccination broadcasts set off what was
known as the Cow War, ultimately exposing just how popular
he was and just how much influence. He had. The
Cow War was this during an outbreak of bovine tuberculosis

(09:43):
in the Midwest, Baker claimed to his radio audience that
the newly mandated TB testing of cattle was really a
conspiracy by veterinarians, and stated that they were falsifying positive
test results in order to steal then sell perfectly healthy
cattle from local farm He convinced enough ranchers this was true,

(10:03):
and the town literally, with violence and intimidation, ran its
veterinarians out. It took the state militia to put things
to an end. Baker, it was clear, had a persuasive voice.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
We're going to take a break for a word from
our sponsors. Remember how we said that Baker claimed he
could cure cancer. When we're back, we will talk about
Baker's first cancer center and why he ended up leaving Iowa.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
Welcome back to Criminalia. Let's talk about Baker's entrance into
snake oil cancer treatments and what happened during his first
run in with the American Medical Association.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
Baker had created one of the most popular radio stations
in the country. He was allowed five hundred watts of
power for it, but like most other stations, he consistently
and illegally broadcast at ten thousand watts. And at ten
thousand watts, his signal could be heard in upwards of

(11:13):
a million homes. And then when inspectors came around, and
that was rare, we just dialed things back down until
they left. On the weekends, though huge numbers of people
were dying, into the thousands would visit the KTNT grounds
to listen to Baker's broadcast. It's estimated that the largest
crowd once grew to roughly fifty thousand people. So imagine

(11:36):
this for perspective. Madison Square Garden in Midtown Manhattan has
a seating capacity of roughly twenty thousand people, and that
is a lot. So this is more than twice that.
This popularity translated into a lot of money for Baker.
On an average summer Sunday, while his devoted audience picnicked
outside the radio station KTNT, Baker's various businesses would take

(12:00):
in about three thousand dollars. That's more than fifty thousand
dollars in today's money, and that was just in one day.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
Getting into radio was really career changing for Baker, and
he used his station as a mouthpiece to rail against
big business and the government, claiming they were conspiring to
cover up well a whole lot of stuff. And then
there was the American Medical Association. The AMA didn't like
Baker very much because of the false or questionable medical

(12:28):
information he spouted during his popular broadcasts of many things.
He once accused the local university hospital of being a
quote slaughter house. He didn't care for the AMA either.
He frequently accused the organization of having a cure for
cancer that they kept secret in order for doctors to
make more money on surgeries and radiation treatments.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
It's what came next in Baker's career path that began
his ultimate downfall, and let's be clear, it truly made
him a level fifty Charlatan scumbag. In the late nineteen twenties,
Baker began using his station to promote bogus cancer cures
and medical advice. He had met a man named Charles
Ozious of Kansas City, and that was a man who

(13:15):
allegedly discovered a cure for cancer. Ozzius was operating a hospital,
a so called hospital called the Ossious Clinic, and soon thereafter,
so was Baker. His hospital, the Baker Institute, would be
his first, but not his last. It operated out of
four oh seven East Front Street in Muscatine, and upon

(13:36):
opening its doors, he advertised that it would quote be
more popular than Rochester, Minnesota. That was a nod to
the success of the Mayo Clinic, which opened in the
fall of eighteen eighty nine. Baker, using the so called
cure that he had pretty much stolen from fellow Charlatan Ozzius,
called his treatment Formula five. Formula five was designed to

(13:59):
be a ministered by injection at the site of the
cancer tumor up to seven times a day. The American
Medical Association claimed that Baker's so called cure was nothing
but a quote quack concoction, and they were not wrong.
And we will get to those ingredients in a minute.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
Together, Baker and Ousius offered to treat five volunteer patients
free of charge to prove the treatment worked. Baker's brand
new tabloid magazine called The Naked Truth or TNT for
continuity with his radio station's call letters, would then publish
the studies findings in the December issue of that year.

Speaker 1 (14:38):
And they did publish those findings, but in a really
horrifying way. After the first patient in the study died
in November of nineteen twenty nine, Baker's CNT magazine published
as planned in December, but with a front page headline
falsely stating, quote cancer is cured. In de the month

(15:01):
of publication, a second of the five patients died, a
third and fourth died in January in February. In March
of nineteen thirty, Baker reprinted that December issue of TNT,
the issue that described the amazing recovery of all five
of his volunteers, he didn't update it. He didn't change

(15:22):
a word. The fifth and final patient died a few
months later in May, and after that Baker once again
reprinted that December issue with no changes. There was never
any mention of those patients dying.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
There are today receipts remaining from patients using his so
called cures. In addition to being in cahoots with Assius,
Baker promoted Harry Hoxy's cancer curing stick, and Hoxy, who
was also from Muscatine, may have spent time providing treatments
at the Baker Institute. The so called cancer cure included

(16:02):
herbal tonics and restrictive diets. The books at the Baker
Institute started with one thoy, three hundred and eighty dollars
in October of nineteen twenty nine and had reached more
than seventy five thousand dollars by June of nineteen thirty.

Speaker 1 (16:18):
But the American Medical Association's weekly Journal for Doctors and
its monthly publication for Everybody called Hygia, began targeting Baker
and his dishonest medical ideas and practices. Their campaign against
him did have the desired effect. His receipts from patients
dropped off, and by January of nineteen thirty one, funds

(16:39):
at the institute were down to seven thousand dollars. The
AMA also lobbied the government to stop his radio broadcasts,
and on June fifth, nineteen thirty one, Baker lost his
broadcasting license on the grounds of quote vulgarity, immorality, or
indecency KTNT closed.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
On top of that, the Iowa Supreme Court issued an
injunction against him from practicing medicine without a license. In
nineteen thirty two, he went to trial and things went
against Baker. The case against him had a lot of
damning evidence, but what sealed the deal was a former
employee of Baker's institute who testified that his cancer cure
was nothing more than quote a mixture of clover, corn, silk,

(17:24):
watermelon seed, and water. His so called hospital was ordered
closed down.

Speaker 1 (17:31):
Baker responded to the AMA by verbally attacking doctor Morris
fishbeind's Jewish faith. Morris was an American physician and the
editor of the journal of the American Medical Association, and
he wanted Baker investigated for making false medical statements over
the radio. In his printed promotional materials and to patience.

(17:53):
Baker sued the AMA for five hundred thousand dollars in damages,
charging libel, claiming that they had called him on various
occasions a quack, a faker, and a charlatan, and honestly
they had, but he still lost the suit because they
were right. None of the things they said about him
were false. Baker, who was seeking to become governor of Iowa,

(18:16):
also lost that bid, and then he got out of town.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
In nineteen thirty two, the Federal Radio Commission, which later
became the Federal Communications Commission or FCC, finally had success
removing from the airwaves all the fortune tellers, mystics, seers,
and peddlers of dubious claims and devices. Despite the measure, though,
there was still concern about what was fit to air

(18:40):
and how to enforce rules about truth in advertising. In
nineteen thirty six, the AMA published that quote no adequate
and prompt measures are as yet available to curb venal
radio stations from selling time to anyone who pays the price.

Speaker 1 (18:57):
When regulators did catch up with on air frauds, the
fraudsters just got creative, known as quote border blasters. Many
set up towers and transmitters in the small towns just
south of the United States Mexico border and broadcasting from Mexico.
They had reached beyond the regulations in the United States.

(19:19):
Baker took to the airwaves once again, but this time
he broadcast under the call letters X E N T
out of Nuevo Laredo, Mexico, on the banks of the
Rio Grande, across the river from Laredo, Texas.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
We are going to take a break for word from
our sponsors. When we're back, we will follow Baker into Arkansas,
where he opened his second hospital.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
Welcome back to Criminelia. Let's talk about the Baker ca
Answered Curable Hospital and why you should be very careful
about what shady things you send through the mail.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
Let's talk about Norman Baker's move from Iowa to Arkansas.
But no, wait, first, let's talk about Norman Baker, the
man who moved to Arkansas. Baker is described as having
dressed flamboyantly, always in a suit and tie. In the summer,
he wore a white suit and matching shoes, a lilac

(20:28):
shirt and lavender tie, while in the colder months he
donned dark chalk striped three piece suits, also with his
signature lilac shirts and lavender ties. He wore a gold
and diamond horseshoe stickpin and a watch fob quote heavy
as an anchorchain. He's also described as quote conventionally handsome,
sharp featured, and clear eyed, confidence inspiring straight out of

(20:52):
a B movie casting call, with a well cut head
of distinguished gray hair and a strong jaw. A time
time when most people couldn't afford to own a car,
he drove a handhammered coach built luxury Cord automobile that
was custom painted in purple excuse us electric lavender.

Speaker 1 (21:13):
In July of nineteen thirty seven, Baker rolled into Eureka Springs, Arkansas,
having purchased the Crescent Hotel at seventy five Prospect Avenue.
This is where he operated the Baker Cancer Curable Hospital
from nineteen thirty seven to nineteen thirty nine, known as
the Grand Old Lady of the Ozarks. The history of

(21:34):
the Crescent Hotel is long. It was a great Victorian landmark,
but had begun to fade with neglect when Baker bought it.
When the Crescent Hotel opened on May twentieth, eighteen eighty six,
a local newspaper called it quote America's most luxurious resort hotel.
It was a hotel and spa known for its healing

(21:54):
waters before it was purchased by the Frisco Railroad Company
in nineteen oh five. In nineteen oh eight, the exclusive
Crescent College and Conservatory for Young Women open there for
educating quote fine young ladies, and then after the school
closed in nineteen thirty four, the hotel resumed operation, but

(22:15):
only during the summer months.

Speaker 2 (22:18):
As its new owner, Baker made extensive modifications to the
old hotel Before opening his hospital's doors, he painted virtually
everything his signature color lavender. The polychrome lobby, though, was
decorated in red, yellow, orange, and black, and it shouldn't
surprise any of us that there was a calliophone on

(22:39):
the roof. He also built a room that acted as
a morgue in the building's basement, where it said that
Baker conducted autopsies and also experimental post mortem surgeries. Now again,
he was doing all of this with zero medical training.

Speaker 1 (22:57):
He hired chiropractors, osteopath and physicians all from diploma mills,
meaning that like him, they were fakes. Baker also began
recruiting cancer patients for his one hundred bed hospital. He
seamlessly applied his dramatic and energetic vaudevillian skills to patent medicine,
and used both his radio station and his tabloid publications

(23:21):
to promote his hospital and his so called cure. He
had clever and ambitious synergies going on among his businesses.
Baker nationally advertised his hospital's strict regiment of fresh air,
healthy food, and exercise as the basis for his cancer treatments.
But for his patients at the hospital, he also had

(23:42):
an elixir that frankly consisted of nothing at all helpful
against cancer. Formula five rears its head again, and he
promised that you would be cured in just six weeks.
And he made a fortune treating many sick and very
desperate people.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
Baker used his ex et radio platform to promote the
hospital across the United States. He was dismissive when it
came to real medical professionals and regularly referred to surgeons
as quote cutters. Advertisements and brochures for his hospital clearly
stated that quote we cure cancer tumor without operation, radium

(24:20):
or X ray. We do not cut any organ. While
it's true they did not use surgery, radium or X ray,
the curing cancer part of that statement is most definitely
a lie. It's a lie that got him sent to prison,
but in a circuitous kind of way because of mail fraud.

Speaker 1 (24:39):
Mail fraud. You may be wondering, isn't this a story
about a man who claimed to have a cure for
cancer and didn't. And it turns out two things can
be true at once, Yes to both. Baker used unethical
practices in acquiring his patients, and in addition to promotions
from his radio show, he used colorful mailers and rochures

(25:00):
as promotional tools, and in them he described Eureka Springs
situated in the Ozark Mountains as the quote Switzerland of America,
for instance, And it was all under the optimistic campaign
quote where sick folks get well and promised that cancer
could be cured with Baker's treatment. These campaigns got him

(25:22):
into trouble with the United States Postal Inspectors, as we
have mentioned before on the show Don't Mess with Postal Inspectors.
In September of nineteen thirty nine, Baker surrendered to United
States marshals on a federal indictment charging him with using
the mails to defraud. Specifically, quote mails were used fraudulently

(25:46):
in connection with a plan to obtain money for a
cancer cure and there's your mail fraud.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
Baker was freed on a ten thousand dollars bond. Five
members of his staff were indicted with him and were
released on bonds of one thousand dollars each. During the trial,
Assistant United States Attorney Leon Catlett quoted Baker as having
stated that he would quote reap one million dollars out
of the suckers in this state. The jury found Baker guilty.

(26:17):
He was fined four thousand dollars and was imprisoned from
March of nineteen forty one to July of nineteen forty
four at the Federal Penitentiary at Leavenworth, Kansas. After his release,
he moved on, but this time not to a new business.
He moved onto a three story yacht in Florida. He
died there on September eighth, nineteen fifty eight.

Speaker 1 (26:38):
Unsurprisingly, Baker's cancer curable hospital patients were not cured. Most
of them died today. Jack Moyer, the general manager and
vice president of what is now again The Crescent Hotel
has stated quote Baker was a Charlatan touting that he
had the cure to cancer. Obviously that proved not to
be the case. The former hospital has since been called

(27:02):
quote America's most haunted hotel, and some of those alleged
apparitions are considered by many people to be Baker's ailing patients.
If that's your sort of thing. That hotel offers ghost tours,
and in twenty nineteen there was a surprise discovery. A
pile of old glass bottles was found buried in the
woods near the hotel. Many of those bottles were broken,

(27:25):
as you may imagine after one hundred years, some of
them were filled with alcohol, and some still had little
bits of unidentified tissue floating in them. More than five
hundred bottles were taken for analysis by the Arkansas Archaeological
Survey and the Crime Lab, and testing for what they
actually contain is ongoing.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
Regardless of his motive for selling a fraudulent cancer cure,
Baker's claims resulted in tragic deaths and robbed cancer pations
of the opportunity of receiving potentially life saving therapies by
genuine medical professionals and while yes, there were limited options
for cancer patients in the nineteen thirties, there were some options,

(28:10):
including surgery or a primitive radiotherapy, but definitely not watermelon seeds.
They won't cure what ails you.

Speaker 1 (28:21):
They will not, but you can drink something yummy and
it might make you slightly less full of iron. At
Norman Baker, who was a lying liar who lies pants
on fire, I debated over what to call this drink.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
Little bit of flesh.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
I wanted to call it electric lavender, because that's great,
but it turned a less lavender in a more pink
color as I was working. We're calling it Formula five.
We'll name it after his thing. And this one will
not cure anything, but it is full of antioxidants and
love that this one. Listen. If you like me, have

(29:02):
been taken in by the tiny USBC chargeable single serving blenders,
this is a great time to whip it out because
it's gonna start with a half to three quarters of
a cup of watermelon chunks. You actually want seedless watermelon
here because you want it nice and smooth, and you're

(29:22):
gonna put those in that blender. And the reason why
there's that much variation in the amount is it's whatever
your blender will fit. And then to that you are
going to pour three quarters of an ounce of lemon juice,
a half ounce of Creme de violette, a quarter ounce
of agave syrup, or you can use simple syrup, and
then an ounce and a half of indigo gin. My

(29:46):
favorite brand of indigo gin is Empress. If you can't
find indigo gin, this is not a problem because you
can make your own. You can use whatever gin you
have on hand. To take about four ounces of it
and put in a tea bag of butterfly pea flour
tea and it will turn that thing in to go
in less than thirty minutes. You can put the eye

(30:07):
like to put it in a little mason jar and
just give it a shake every few minutes and you'll
see how quickly it really turns a dark color. We
kind of want that as the base to give it,
that little tinge of lavender in a nod to Baker,
even though we hate him. And so you are going
to blend all of these things together, give them a
good blend. If you don't have a tiny blender, that's fine.
It works just great in a big blender we're not

(30:29):
straining this either. I want you to have all of
that texture that you get from the watermelon. And because
you're in a blender and because of all the ingredients together,
it gets really frothy. And when you pour it out
into a chilled I used a chilled coop. You can
use whatever you want, but you do want that glass
to be cold. It looks almost like you have made

(30:50):
a drink with something pink and egg white, but there's
no egg white in it. But it gets really frothy
and beautiful like an egg white drink, So it has
that not quite the same silky mouth. There's a different texture,
but it's really beautiful and so delicious, a little dangerous.
You cannot taste any of the alcohol. As always drink responsibly,
but really be careful with this one, especially if you

(31:12):
make it for someone else, make clear to them that
there are two ounces of alcohol in it, because it
doesn't taste like it. This formula five we want to
drink all the time. I want to batch it and
make it for everyone whoever comes to my house. This
is a very easy one to sub out to do
your mocktail with because in lieu of your indigo gin
you're just gonna make a cup of butterfly pea flour

(31:34):
tea and that works great. And again you'll use an
ounce and a half of it, so you'll have extra
after you make your cup. And then instead of creme
de violette, you just need a half ounce of violet syrup,
which is easy enough to get and it is also
very delicious, and that one you can chug all day
because there's nothing going to hurt you in there, and
it's not going to get you intoxicated, although you may
feel puffy if you drink that much of anything that

(31:55):
is the formula five. You're getting fiber, you're getting antioxidants. Delicious.

Speaker 2 (32:00):
Baker suggests that you have it seven times a day.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
That's the problem. I could probably drink that seven don't
drink seven drinks a day. You don't want to explain
that to your doctor when they ask after it. How
frequently do you drink seven times a day?

Speaker 2 (32:16):
But it's waters for my health, for my health, don't
do that.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
Don't do it. But I understand the temptation because this
is really delicious. And as we are starting to get
into later spring and looking at summer, this is when
that's going to be in heavy rotation at my house
because Yum and I love watermelon everything. We've had more
than usual gin occurrences so far this season. Don't worry,
we'll switch it up. I promise. We are so grateful

(32:44):
that you spent this time with us talking about Charlottean
Norman Baker, who makes us very irate and hopefully entertained
you and didn't make you too mad, especially with the
yimy drink at the end. We'll be right back here
next week with more snake oil and more drinks. Criminalia

(33:07):
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