Not Another Sex Episode with Shan Boodram

The first time sexologist and author Shan Boodram was on the show, she played the role of referee in a heated conversation about sex between this Ellises. 5 years, another child, and a vasectomy later, the conversation is a lot different. Dead Ass. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I know I said this before, but I'm gonna say
it again. The moment you realize that sex is not
about you, you will have the best sex of your life.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Dead ass, baby, I can co sign on that one,
because it turns out, now that you've unlocked those things,
sex is all about me, and I want it to
be all about you.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
Mm hmm, deadass.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hey, I'm Kadeen and I'm Devoued, and we're the Ellis's.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
You may know us from posting funny videos with our.

Speaker 4 (00:32):
Voice and reading each other publicly as a form of therapy.

Speaker 3 (00:36):
Wait, I make you need therapy most days. Wow.

Speaker 4 (00:40):
Oh, and one more important thing to mention, we're married, Yes.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
Sir, we are.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
We created this podcast to open dialogue about some of
Li's most taboo topics, things.

Speaker 4 (00:49):
Most folks don't want to talk about.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Through the lens of a millennial married couple. Dead ass
is a term that we say every day. So when
we say dead ass, we're actually saying facts one hundred
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Were about to take pillow talk to our whole new level.

Speaker 4 (01:07):
Dead ass starts right now.

Speaker 3 (01:11):
Story time.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
All right, So I'm gonna talk to you guys about
what I was researching when I was going to get
my vasectomy.

Speaker 3 (01:19):
All right, so don't laugh, don't laugh. What is kind
of funny?

Speaker 4 (01:23):
The big.

Speaker 3 (01:25):
Yes, fake there is because.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
Remember the number one thing I was looking at is
if my nut was gonna be wartery. Once I found
out that my nut was not going to be effected
by the vasectomy, then I was focusing on the other
things that was not as important to me. The first
one was my testosterone level, because there were tons of
research and stuff that people saying, oh, your testoterone is
gonna dip, this is gonna happen, And I was like,
is that really researches, This is opinions that people are

(01:48):
saying online. So I was just looking and looking and looking,
And while I was looking, I was just finding out
that there isn't as much information about the other effects
of sex for men. For example, we were talking before
we came on camera about oxytocin levels, and we know
how oxytocin levels affect children, we know how they affect women,
but we're not sure about how they affect men, which

(02:11):
made me realize maybe that's the reason why there's still
a disconnect is because we're not focusing on the full
party here, especially if we're all focusing on each other.
How can we haven't put any focus on how oxytocin
specifically affects men.

Speaker 4 (02:26):
Very interesting.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yes, before we introduce our guests, who you guys pretty
much know because I talked time on the show.

Speaker 4 (02:35):
We have to run. We have been the block on
my boo.

Speaker 3 (02:38):
So I think it was about three or four.

Speaker 4 (02:41):
Years nineteen to be exact, five.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
Years wow ago was when we had our guests on.
So we're going to sing the same song we sang
then because it's just so fitting.

Speaker 5 (02:51):
Let's talk about sex, baby, Let's talk about you and me.
Let's talk about all the good things and the bad
things that made me. Let's talk about sex. Let's talk
about sex.

Speaker 4 (03:05):
We're gonna die. Let's set people in the crowd.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
I forgot the rapt.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Portion either, but you probably hear that all the time.
That's this is so fun.

Speaker 3 (03:19):
They don't rap like that no more.

Speaker 4 (03:20):
They make the stallion kind of. Does I feel she
gives me nostalgia?

Speaker 2 (03:24):
She does?

Speaker 1 (03:25):
She does, matter of fact, she does. Megan, she is
you know what she is. She's not a bad performer either.
Shout out to meg oh girl.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
All right, let's pay some bills and we're gonna come
back and we're gonna dive in. It's been five years, y'all,
a lot has changed about our perspective when it comes
to sex. So we can't wait to, you know, debrief
with Shannon. Let us know, let her know where we
are now with things. All right, So let's pay some
bills and we'll be right back.

Speaker 4 (03:50):
All right, we're back. We want to talk about.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
This story time Hereval told us about earlier in the show.
But before I do that, I know some of you
are familiar with our guests today Shan Boo dram or,
so I want to push.

Speaker 4 (04:04):
You for a story because you gave like an information time.
What's the story that makes that representative of what you said?

Speaker 1 (04:12):
Well, the story was that, and it actually goes in
line with what we're talking about. I was trying to
be of service. I wanted to be of service to
my wife. At the time, we had just had our
fourth child, and afterwards she got right back on birth
control because she had suffered from postpart and pre clamshire.
And because she'd suffered from that, the doctor said, you know,
you shouldn't get pregnant again because there's a greater chance

(04:35):
of you getting pre clamshit during the pregnancy. So she
got on birth control, and when she got on birth control,
it was like super heavy periods, headaches, everything was, everything
was off. And I was I was like, you know,
it's been a decade, in about a decade and a half,
that she's been on some sort of birth control or
giving birth or pregnant.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
Or postpartum, breastfeeding, all the things right.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
And I was just like, I think it's I thought
at this time, it's a little unfair for me to
continue to ask her to do things to her body
so that we can enjoy sex. So I was like, yo,
we're not having no more kids. She was like, we're done.
I was like, we've done. I said, I'm going to
go ahead and do my part in this finally.

Speaker 3 (05:14):
You know. So I wanted to get a vasectomy, but
I'm not gonna lie.

Speaker 1 (05:17):
I was concerned about my testosterone levels, and you know,
you read stuff online, you speak to people. I spoke
to the urologists and it was just like, your testosterone
levels will never be affected by vasected me. That is
a myth that people think is true, but it's not.
And I'm actually a perfect example of that because it's
been almost two years and everything about my body has

(05:39):
changed and also gotten better with how I also how
I approached my diet.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
I can also attest to the fact that the nut
consistency is still the same. It's not watery, selling baby,
It's as it should be.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yes, it's still sticky, still sticky, still still thick.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
You know what I'm saying. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
It's still like a little that little gummy fled, you know,
a little gummy and you know it's the same. It's
exactly the same. So let y'all know. So, gentlemen, if
you're concerned about having running nut, that's not a thing.

Speaker 3 (06:07):
That's not a thing. So that's what I was. I
was always.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
About trying to find the best answers so that I
know I can do this, you know, in an educational way.

Speaker 3 (06:16):
I never want to just guess. And the story for
me was there.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
Isn't a lot of information about how sex affects men,
about how oxytocin the need for sex, Like there's no
studies and probably because most men be like I ain't
seen enough for no fucking study you know how men
are like this is like I'm not doing this. But
it also made me realize, how can we expect women
to understand what we go through if we're not willing
to give the information so that they know, you know.

Speaker 3 (06:42):
What I'm saying. And I learned a lot of stuff.
I learned.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
I would say ninety percent of what I know about
sex from a woman's perspective from you, because I started
to say to myself, yes, yes, s yes when.

Speaker 3 (06:55):
When you came.

Speaker 4 (06:58):
Because you know all that and a baggagechis.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
When you came on the show in twenty nineteen, it
was like a light bulb. It was like, why have
I spent my whole life asking men about how I
should try to please my wife?

Speaker 3 (07:10):
And people do that to me now right, they'll come
up to me.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
I just left Men's con and I met It was
about fifteen guys at the dinner, and they all in
some sort of way pulled me aside and say, let
me ask you a question, man, how do you get
your wife too? And I said, it's funny you keep
asking me, but I don't have any of the OROGENI
zones that she has, so I don't know how to
tell you.

Speaker 3 (07:30):
How about you ask her?

Speaker 1 (07:31):
But also consult with women, and they're always like, well women,
And I said, well, you know, there's a person I
follow who gives you direct advice, and you have to
choose whether or not you want to listen or not,
because sometimes men don't want to.

Speaker 3 (07:45):
Hear what it is that women have to say about that.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
I know what I'm doing, but if you really want
to know what you're doing, how about you listen. So
I've been listening and she's been like, this is different,
but I like this. But what's been happening is the
reciprocation has been different. That's why I said in the beginning,
once you realize that sex isn't about you anymore, that's
when you have the best sex from your your life.

(08:09):
But I've also kind of got that from you. I
can't coin that phrase. I can't coin that phrase, but
listening to you has really been what's helped our sex
life a lot.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
And I'm gonna tell you, guys, why she deserves all
the accolades. I'm going to give you, like the whole
run of who sham whom is? She is a certified
sex educator and intimacy expert. Shan is Bumbles sex and
relationships expert, the host of the Marriage Pact on the
Roku channel. That's just amazing, congrats on that. Congratulated you

(08:41):
since the host of the top podcast Lovers and Friends,
the workshop facilitator on Netflix Too Hot to Handle, and
the author of the best selling book which we also
have and we've read a couple.

Speaker 4 (08:53):
Of times, The Game of the Desire.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
We have the pleasure of speaking with Shan on the
podcast back in twenty nineteen when we were at a
different point in our six drive journey or sex journey
together which is always evolving. Twenty two years in and
now she's back to talk us through what this next
chapter is looking like, now that we've implemented some of
her ways and tips and tricks and knowledge.

Speaker 4 (09:16):
Shan, I'm so happy to have you back there, girl. Yes, yeah,
Oh my gosh, my head is exploding, just because there's
so many things that you're saying that I.

Speaker 3 (09:24):
Want to get to.

Speaker 4 (09:24):
Okay, so I do, like, let's put a bookmark on this.
I want to talk about the harm that comes with
thinking that our bodies are very different, or our rodenus
zones are very different, and also Liken that to the
same problem that happens where medically we understand a lot
about men in certain areas, like we can't get any
more information on a rectile dysfunction, I can't any more polls,

(09:46):
any solutions, any more studies. But to your point, when
it comes to men's need for the cuddle hormone or
the impact of the cuddle hormone, the need for intimacy,
their desire for other forms of intimacy that can be
linked also with brain biology and with physiology, there's nothing
on that, so that's also kind of a part of that.
And they're like, it's not a problem. I don't even
think about it. But because they don't actually want to address

(10:08):
unless it's they're going bald or their dick's not getting hard,
that they will study all day long.

Speaker 3 (10:14):
No cap, no cap.

Speaker 1 (10:16):
When I was looking at stuff for the seconomy, all
of those ads kept coming in hair loss and limp dicks,
those like I'm looking at research, those ads just kept
coming in because that's what men really are concerned about.
And then third on that was getting a six pack,
like it was that, and then ads like this is.

Speaker 3 (10:33):
Very long for something.

Speaker 4 (10:35):
Probably might not ask for your advice on that because
you obviously still your woman. Head of hair.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
The head of hair thing we've been working on, and
it came back.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
My hair actually came back because I was losing a lot.
I actually did go to see a doctor about that.
I found out that I did not have male pattern baldness.
I had stress induced thinning.

Speaker 3 (10:58):
No, not thinning.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
What is it called ALOPECI I only got bold right here.
And he was just like, dude, if you learn to relax,
you might be fine. I was like, I'm an entrepreneur
and I'm a dad, and I'm a husband. Relaxing is
not part of my thing. So I openly tried a
lot of different things. I tried PRP when in twenty
nineteen didn't take. I tried PRF in twenty twenty one.
I tried what was the other thing I just did recently,

(11:21):
the hair follicle thing, and none of those things worked.

Speaker 3 (11:25):
It was when I decided to change my diet. I
cut out.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
Dairy and people gonna get mad at me. But I
meditate and I smoke. Remember when you came in and
I was outside. The first thing I do now when
I wake up, I go outside. I sit in the sun,
twenty minutes away from everyone, and I meditate and I
chill because it allows me to create a space for
myself where I can just be comfortable and not always
be on. I think all of those things changing my diet,

(11:53):
cutting out red meat and all this other stuff helped,
so it wasn't just one thing, you know. Plus some
of those things might have helped, Like I use rag
every day too, so you know, so it's like a
combination of things that's helped me. It's never just one thing.
So's that's my journey when it comes at least the
hair loss thing.

Speaker 4 (12:09):
Okay, this actually tees me up to the bigger compliment
that I want to make. Because when we were talking
about me coming back, and then yesterday we just chatted
briefly about what we're going to talk about, a part
of me was like, it's five years and we're still
on the same topic. You know, we haven't figured this out.
And then I listened to the chapter of the book
this morning. Your book is phenomenal. I got to go

(12:30):
to the whole thing, but listening to the chapter specifically
on doing it and doing it and doing it well,
which I'll listen to three more times phenomenal. Thank you
such powerful, poignant advice and icky advice, like I love
the fact that this is going to It's going to
give some people the cringe because the reality is not
always the most flowery, most perfect things to say, like

(12:54):
the stories that both of you like, there's I gotta
show you my book bark. So I listened to audiobooks
and book marks and it was like, yes, yes, yes, yes,
I love to hear that.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
And you know, it's funny because Deval has said in
the past, within the five years, oh, we haven't done
a sex.

Speaker 4 (13:10):
Episode, and I'm like, what the fuck are we going
to talk about again? With sex? Like I'm tired of
talking about it.

Speaker 2 (13:15):
But it's literally like the one thing that when people
approach us, like he said, guys come and talk to
him about it.

Speaker 4 (13:21):
It's like, Kadeen, like, how do you keep up?

Speaker 2 (13:25):
How do you have the time and the drive and
the desire to do it three, four or five times
a week? Because that's our consistency level. How do I
get to that? You know, women feeling like they're they're
inadequate or not being able to keep up with their man.

Speaker 4 (13:40):
So to your point, Shan, whenever we have the sex talk.
I'm like, we still talk about this shit like people
haven't figured it out, but I really haven't inspiring because
it is the number one issue within partnered couples, especially
long term partner couples, the disparity and sex drive, and
people are looking for a quick fix. Yeah, and you
guys are just such a beautiful example of how it's

(14:00):
a multi layered, multi approach. It takes individual work, it
takes group work, it takes things that are you're going
to try that are not going to work, and then
in the end you end up with a system that
works for the time being, but life is.

Speaker 3 (14:12):
Lost and it evolves, and it evolves.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
That's why I told her, I think we should continue
to talk about sex because people still ask even though
we talked about it. Two nights ago, we had a
little bit of an argument. One thing I've learned from
you is women need oxytocin. They need to be touched
in the health. The other night, my friends were out here,
My buddy came by. She was in the room by herself.
I said, oh, this is go lay down for a minute.

(14:36):
I laid down with her for about thirty minutes until
she fell asleep. Didn't ask for no sex, didn't want nothing,
didn't rub my heart beat on her back to let
her know.

Speaker 3 (14:44):
No.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
I made it about her and she came out afterwards
She's like, I just feel a little better.

Speaker 3 (14:50):
I learned that, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (14:52):
Yes, And remember when Cheto was coming over here and
she said, why don't you go out there with Cheetah?
I was like, Nah, that goes to one of those
things you talk about. Men have to learn that if
we want to give to a woman, it's not always
giving because I want something in return. I'm not gonna
cuddle with you now because I want to fuck later.

Speaker 3 (15:08):
You know.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
I'm going to cuddle because I know you need that,
and when you're good, I'm good.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
But you know what happens because we cuddled and I
felt like considered in that moment. Now it makes me
want to fuck you later.

Speaker 3 (15:19):
You know what I'm saying, that's literally what happening.

Speaker 4 (15:21):
The circle of life. You know what I'm saying. Reciprocity. Yeah,
I want to ask about because we were talking briefly
about like what we're going to jump into and there
was a clip that I had online that you're like this,
you know stuck out to me where I s gave
the advice that when it comes to sex frequency, the
person who wants it the least determines how much sex

(15:43):
you're having. When people are like, what's the magic number
for how much a couple should be having sex, I'm like, yeah,
ask the person who's least interested. There's the number. What
are your thoughts about that?

Speaker 3 (15:52):
Well?

Speaker 1 (15:52):
My thoughts about that was I I felt like that
was one sided and unfair. For this reason is because
with anything else in life, there's always compromised. Why with
sex is there no compromise? You know, when it comes
to things, I want to do what she wants to do.
We always try to find a way to meet in
the middle. So how come when it comes to sex,
it's like, no, we're not going to meet in the middle.

(16:13):
We're just gonna do it when I want to do it.
That to me just seems unfair. So that was my thoughts.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
Come, that's what he thought, and to me, I was
just like, see this exactly what I was trying to say.
Because naturally in the pair, I'm the one who wants
it the least. I'm usually satisfied. But my caveat once
I learned that. I realized that there's other ways to
be intimate and it doesn't always have to be penetration

(16:38):
and intercourse. Right, So for a long time, Deva has
been saying to me, kay, like, it doesn't have to
be intercourse every single time, Like that's asking a lot
of you and your body, especially if you don't want it.
He said, how about we just do things that are
different outside of it. So it can be oral sex.
It can be most recently getting some oil, douncing myself

(16:59):
in it. He can rub on my breasts, my body
while I rub on him, Like, there's so many other
ways to satisfy that sexual appetite. And it finally clicked
to me after listening to that, I'm like, he really
shouldn't have to you know.

Speaker 4 (17:13):
I don't want to say suffer because that makes it
seem like.

Speaker 3 (17:15):
Yeah, nothing, it's not suffering.

Speaker 4 (17:17):
Bad, it's not suffering.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
But he shouldn't have to go at a deficit because
I'm at a deficit. And it made me feel less
inadequate because that was something I always used.

Speaker 4 (17:28):
I just never felt like I.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
Was enough and that took a hit for me and
my ego and I was just thinking, like am I
not a enough woman for him?

Speaker 4 (17:35):
Am I not enough wife?

Speaker 2 (17:36):
And he would question sometimes like do you even want
to be a wife, because you know, wives are you're
supposed to satisfy your husband. And I'm thinking the same thing.
But it kind of put the power back into you know,
put me in the driver's sept because I was able
to take control of the situation, let him feel considered,
and it didn't require something from my body that I
didn't want in that moment.

Speaker 4 (17:56):
I actually think the chapter of your book really could
have been called the person who wants it the least
controls the frequency, because I think what you did, what
the two of you have done so beautifully, is that
is like the frame of reference. Because what the goal
is isn't for us to have our sexual needs met
because we have hands, there's toys, there's multiple things. The

(18:17):
goal is for us to have a sex life that
is mutually satisfying that we're both enthusiastic about that, we're
both feel like we're getting our needs met, and that
we feel like is in line with our greater priorities.
And that goal is way harder to accomplish, then well
I'm horny, so let's figure it out. So that's the
thing is that there's additional work that comes with that.

(18:40):
Compromise is not zero to one hundred. I don't want it,
you do, So we compromise and do what you do.
What you want. The compromise is, let's look at all
the various factors and figure out how our needs can
get closer together by us doing the work. Like I
put a big yes on that part where you're like,
I had to actually learn our body and research it.
And then I love what you said too, because you're like,

(19:02):
it kind of sucked, but I don't have to deal
with a period. So would I rather learn about a
period or have to experience it every single month?

Speaker 1 (19:09):
When I learned about it, it really opened me up,
Like I can't as a young man, no one explains
to you mentoral cycles at all. You have no idea.
You go to health class. Health class is half of
a semester in seventh grade. You know what I'm saying,
Like that's all we did. It was we talked about
condoms and STIs, but no one talks you about during
a menstrual cycle. There could be a ten to fourteen

(19:32):
day period where women's hormones could be off she could bleed.
People think it's oh, it's only five days. Some women
can bleed longer than five days. Some women bleed so
heavy that they can't leave the house. A lot of
these things cause different issues outside of just sex, you know,
issues with self esteem, issues with feeling sexy because you
don't know how your partner's gonna respond. The more I
learned about having a mentrual cycle, I was like, dang,

(19:53):
women deal with a lot every day. She I don't
want to.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
I think you're gonna get to where I think you're going.
Quick story, quick story. We're on vacation, ended up making
her a public and I get my period and I'm
there with my husband and my four boys, right So
being the queen of the castle, you know, I find
ways to maneuver and try to keep up with them,
even though I may not be feeling my best. I
don't want to leave the bed, but I'm on the beach,

(20:18):
so sacrifice going in the water.

Speaker 4 (20:20):
The boys are like, mommyhy aren't you in the water today?

Speaker 2 (20:22):
And I'm like, because literally day one and two, like
I can't even wear a tampon, Like it's just I
just realized too, I have fibroids. I found that out,
so it's a whole thing. So we're at dinner that
evening and I'm like, okay, it's day one, but you know,
I put on my heavy duty front to back pad
that goes from like my clapical to my shoulder blades.
And we're at dinner and on the beach, and all
of a sudden it starts raining. And I only be sitting

(20:43):
at the table for maybe an hour, hour and a half,
you know, and I stand up. I was wearing like
a floral print shorts. But I look at the khaki
pad on the chair and I've bled through, So of course,
super embarrassing moment.

Speaker 4 (20:59):
The boys stay. I look down.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
Devalo looks at me. It's like horror. The waiters are nearby.
We don't know what the boys see. So I'm like scrambling.
At this point, the rain is coming down. Deval literally
quickly unties the sides of the cushion, puts it on
his head, and then runs with me and the boys
back towards shelter.

Speaker 3 (21:20):
The guy. The guy comes with umbrellas, right like, sir,
I have an umbrella.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
I'm like, no, get the women to distract them, because
I don't want them to see the blood on the thing.

Speaker 3 (21:29):
I don't want her to be embarrassed.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
I just hut the pillow on my head and then
I'm like, come on, boys, come And Jackson's like what
is happening?

Speaker 3 (21:36):
Like why why is this so dramatic? It does not
have to beat his dramatic.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
And then we get upstairs and you know, I'm in
the shower in one room and Devo's with the cushions
standing in the shower like shampooing it at this point.
But then I walk in and I see Jackson's with him,
and I'm like, what's happening? So he goes on to
then have a conversation with our thirteen year old about
mom's heavy period. At first, I was like super embarrassed

(22:01):
and I was like, why are we having this conversation
with my thirteen year old?

Speaker 4 (22:04):
But then Devo I explained to him.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
I said, I was like, you're in you love women, right, Jackson.
He's like, yeah, Dode, So I said, you're you're gonna
have a woman. One day, She's gonna have a period.
There's gonna be a time where she may have her
period in a space where it came inconveniently. You can't
be the Dodos. It's like we'll go figure it out
or I'm not going to the store to get no paths, Babe,
how can I help you in this moment? You may

(22:27):
have to take your jacket, your hoodie or wrapping around
her waist, like, these are things that may have to happen,
and I don't want you to be grossed.

Speaker 3 (22:32):
Out as a young man.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
Say you're fifteen, I've been there before with my girlfriend
and I'm in high school and they're like, oh, so
and so got her period and she's in the girl's
bathroom and you know what I'm saying. Everybody said, what
does that? And no one knows what that means? But
then people are looking around and then she's embarrassing. I'm like,
if that's your girlfriend, you got to step in and
you have to be like, yo, I got this?

Speaker 3 (22:55):
You going? Yo? How can I help in this? What
do you need to get?

Speaker 1 (22:58):
And he was like okay, And then I to him
about K's moods before her period, during and after. So
now Jackson is like when he sees moms in the
room with the blanket up and heat and he's just
like he's like she's on a lady Tom and I
was just like yeah, And he's like, is there anything
that I can do? And I'm just like, you know,
give your mom some space, go and check on and
maybe give her hugs. So now the youngest boys, they'll

(23:21):
all go in there and jump on her a little bit,
give a hug, but then.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
Give her some space.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
But I'm trying to teach them to understand what women
go through so that it's not a shock when you
have a girlfriend or when you want to have sex
with your girlfriend. As seventeen and she's like, well, I'm
on my period, Jack's and you're like.

Speaker 3 (23:35):
So, S'm so close, listen you have Well we.

Speaker 4 (23:41):
Were both conversations sooner.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yeah, you know to your point, Sham like probably earlier
than seventeen too.

Speaker 3 (23:47):
That's about I say. We were both having sex earl
and seventeen.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
So I'm not going to sit here and play that
guy you know about just abstinence. At some point they're
going to have sex. I just want them to learn
to respect and understand what women are going through so
that they can help, you know, in the process, but
also just you know, be aware, like don't don't be
a jackass. Don't say things like I was a jackass
when I was young. I said things and not knowing,

(24:11):
like she was pregnant. Why are you acting so crazy?
My mom was pregnant, had three kids and went to work.
We't the first women to have a baby, I hated,
you know, the first person to have a baby. Why
you act like this? I didn't know better, I had
no knowledge of what it was. I literally, I'm twenty six.
Then how the baby? The baby come out? We'd be
good now we's three of us, That's what I thought.

Speaker 4 (24:31):
And your dad never had those conversations with you, obviously.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
You know my dad said to me about sex, you'
having sex? Say yes, you know there's condums in my drawer,
Say yeah, in the bottom right, Say cool? And that
was it. My mom never talked to me about women's
health ever. Like what my mom ever said to me was,
this is our bodies and we don't have to do

(24:55):
what you want us to do.

Speaker 3 (24:57):
What does that mean?

Speaker 1 (24:59):
Like, I like, I'm sixteen, I don't know what that means, mom,
but whatever, you know. So I just want to be
better for my sons so that they can understand, you know, yeah,
can we just clap.

Speaker 3 (25:10):
That was so beautiful. How did that make you feel?

Speaker 2 (25:14):
Oh my god, it made me feel seen, It made
me feel loved on, It made me feel inspired to
want to even share more with my boys from a
female's perspective as well, like it's great to hear from dad, right,
but that kind of almost gave me the green light
as well too, to say, these conversations need to be
had because similar to the devour my Mom, everything surrounding
sex and menstruation and all that was just awkward.

Speaker 4 (25:35):
It was like, here's the book. If you have questions,
let me know.

Speaker 2 (25:38):
But I think we're just more open as maybe some
millennial thing, or maybe it's because you know, you know better,
you do better, or seeing people around us make those
mistakes growing up that we just want our boys to
be equipped with like all of the tools.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
And there's no knock on our parents like that generation,
that's how things were done like that. The next generation
are probably going to look back at us and be
like y'a to and discuss this, right, and then we'll
have to do better, but right, And I don't want
to knock my parents.

Speaker 3 (26:04):
Yeah they were good.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
I mean we turned out pretty all right, So I
think they did, but you know, sometimes not. My mom
and dad will look like, you guys are talking to
them about what you know did I had talked to
Jackson about like how to drink whiskey or something, and
my mom was just like, is that a necessary conversation? No, yeah,
it is, because do we want to go out and
get shit faced at a club because he's drinking all
the different things? And then no, we want to educate

(26:27):
them on the things that are taboo so they can
be equipped to make the right decisions. You know, kids
are going to fuck up anyway, but at least if
they have a little something in the back of their
brain saying, oh shit, Dad didn't warm me about that,
or Mom mentioned this, like, oh it makes more sense.

Speaker 4 (26:43):
I just like, I just couldn't give enough claps and
snaps and stomps or whatever it takes just to congratulate
you guys on just how beautiful and open you are.
And a big part of that is being willing to
ask for help and being willing to look for solutions.
And I feel like what you guys have is something
that I think is really hard to find in relationships,
and it's really hard to find when we bring sex

(27:04):
into the play, which is unconditional positive regard. Like I
just actually, I think you're a good person. I think
you're an amazing person. I think you want to satisfy
my needs. You're an amazing husband, you're an amazing wife.
And so if we are figure having issues, then we
need to look at this together and start to assess
both of us. Like, I love that you both went
to somebody to go figure out, and we've got some

(27:25):
potions and lotions. You went to Google, started looking at stuff,
You started looking at yourself, So there was this independent
work happening because you're not like, well, my husband is
the problem or my wife is the problem. It's like
this is the problem.

Speaker 3 (27:37):
Right.

Speaker 4 (27:37):
We both acknowledge that this is where it's at. We
respect where it's at, we understand why it's here, and
we both reject this as being our norm. And no
one person is responsible for helping this change to come
to fruition, right, And there's no timeline on it, and
there was no one single thing that fixed it.

Speaker 3 (27:53):
No, really, there wasn't. The one thing you brought up
was the positive regard.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
One thing I constantly reiterate to Kaden is that I
know we may have discussions or disagreements, but not at
any point that I ever say, Kadeen, you're doing this
to me on purpose to make me upset. Right, And
as long as I kept reiterating that to her, it's like,
we're just at a space where we're in different lanes.
We're just in different lanes. You're not trying to be
in this lane on purpose. I'm not trying to be

(28:18):
in this lane. We're just in different lanes. So let's
work at it. And I notice sometimes she needs to
hear that because we have the conversation sometimes and she's
still a very emotional person and she feels inadequate, and
I'm like, Babe, I'm not saying that you're a demon
and you're doing this on purpose. And I watch her
go okay, because I'm really not, and I'm like.

Speaker 2 (28:36):
You're not.

Speaker 4 (28:36):
You need to hear that something I do. You're just
I don't think you're crazy. I don't think you're bad,
I don't think you're a bad mom. I don't think
you're an idiot. Yeah, we actually need to make sure
that our partner doesn't feel that.

Speaker 2 (28:47):
So I second, Yeah, it's almost like we're at two
different sides of the ring, right, So to your point, Shan,
it's like making the necessary steps on each side so
we can meet in the middle and we can wrestle,
you know.

Speaker 4 (28:58):
And I think that's.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
Essentially what we are starting to get at, and we're
really and you think about it. Octoberly, twenty two years
since we've started dating.

Speaker 4 (29:10):
Have you guys not had sex with anybody else for
twenty two years? Twenty two years?

Speaker 1 (29:14):
No, I had sex with one other person. Oh yeah,
I had sex with one other person.

Speaker 4 (29:18):
All right within our dating within our dating Spanah, what's
the stretch of like you've been the only person I
e that's me twenty two years.

Speaker 3 (29:24):
Yeah, yeah, and for me it's been how many years
we've been married.

Speaker 4 (29:29):
Oh we're married fourteen years.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
Year, fourteen years, fourteen years older than any other kids.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
Yeah, yes, So imagine trying to like reinvent yourself and
like grow through it all.

Speaker 4 (29:41):
It's like, what does that look like?

Speaker 3 (29:43):
I do want to say this though, and people don't
realize this.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
I enjoy sex still after fourteen years. People think, yeah,
that that's not a thing, Like you still enjoy having
sex with the same person.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
A right, what's the saying like there's no better pussy
than new pussy or something like that.

Speaker 3 (29:58):
Yeah, that's the saying.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
But I think the freedom that we have knowing that,
like we're committed and we can literally do anything with
each other. We introduced the toys like Shannon walked in
here with a nice big box of like shrikes. She
came in here like the fairy god sex mother or
sex godmother rather. But I mean, I think there's ways
that we've been trying to reinvent ourselves and then keep

(30:19):
up with drives and then go through all of the
transitions between workloaths and having children and coming back after
that like somebody needs to give us a metal.

Speaker 4 (30:29):
It's like, oh, I feel like I need to do that.

Speaker 3 (30:32):
I know.

Speaker 4 (30:33):
I feel like I'm in the host chair now, so
I'm gonna shut up after this. But no, it's all
good because some people when they're following your journey period,
there's a million things to follow, and congratulations on all
of it, even in five years, how much you guys
have grown in your family and then in your personal
endeavors as a unit. The book, all of it is
just so incredible. But if people are like I saw
the viral clip, but three years ago where you were like,

(30:55):
why do women ask for monogamy?

Speaker 1 (30:57):
Yes, we just talked about that with the UH, with
a Men's con and with Nice and Neat podcasts.

Speaker 3 (31:02):
We literally just talked about that.

Speaker 4 (31:03):
Yeah, So there's that viral clip. There's the discussions you
guys have had around disparities and sex drive. There's probably
been judgment on your end from men, there's been judgment
on your end from women. Update people on like where
you're at on this journey today?

Speaker 1 (31:18):
I would say on this journey, we're still on the journey,
but we've matured a lot to understand that I can't
expect I can't expect my partner to know how I
feel just because she's my partner. I have to eloquently
articulate how I feel. And when I say eloquently articulate,
I can't just jump out the window and be like

(31:38):
what the fuck. I have to find a way to
speak to her in a way that she can receive it,
because a lot of times impact is not always the
same as intent. Right, I intended to say something, but
the way it impacted you when it didn't land properly,
So now everything I said and all my intention is lost.
So I've just had to learn, like you know, listen,
sex is always going to change. Figured something out in

(32:01):
twenty twenty and it was like, ah, it's fixed. And
in twenty twenty one we get pregnant again, and I
was like, Okay, all of those things that we liked
and knew that was the norm has changed. What am
I going to fix now? I've also learned to enjoy
the process of trying to fix it as opposed to
sitting back and being so mad that we got to
talk about sex again.

Speaker 2 (32:19):
Right now?

Speaker 3 (32:20):
What's on date nights is yo, what are you? What
are you into now? Like?

Speaker 1 (32:23):
What is what is it that you think you want
to try? Differently like consistently dating my wife and being
interested in how her body's changing, because this woman here
has not been the same from year to year. And
I've also enjoyed that because it's like it's like a
different journey. You know how they say there's no pussy
like new pussy. I feel like I get a new
pussy every years changed, you know, it changes, you know,

(32:46):
So I've enjoyed it. It's like a mystery, Like I
love puzzles. I do a Rubics cube every day, so
it's like, this is my Rublescube.

Speaker 3 (32:53):
Every day. What do I got to do.

Speaker 1 (32:54):
Today to solve this puzzle to unlock it? So they're
all the sides of the same right, you know. So
it's been fun.

Speaker 4 (33:00):
Yeah, it's been fun, but it's also been.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
Eye opening for me because I've realized the power in
really just having calm, controlled discussions about what we require.
You know, something that might have been a green light
before is now a red light, or some things that
were kind of like I'm teetering on yellow.

Speaker 4 (33:22):
It's like said in the book.

Speaker 2 (33:23):
I was like, like, what what are we introducing now?
Maybe look through your little box over there and see
what toys you got. But that was one of the things,
introducing toys that we were both comfortable with or trying
something that may have been like I don't know, but
then it like hit the ball out of the park.

(33:45):
There also used to be issues with having the discussion
about sex, and it would drag and it would drag
into you know, being pissed at each other for the night.

Speaker 4 (33:54):
We're sleeping on opposite sides of the bed.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
We wake up in the morning and then we're carrying
that bad energy throughout the day and now it's like
if there is a disconnect, we'll talk about it, we'll
try to figure it out in that moment.

Speaker 4 (34:10):
Then somebody breaks the ice, usually de Velle.

Speaker 2 (34:12):
I'll give you your credit for like coming in and
rapping me in the cuddle. Hormone you know, that starts
to kind of brew and then we'll end up having
a great love making session, or it'll be like poundtown
because like, you fucking annoyed me. You annoyed me, so
let's just you know, dupe this out and then we're
just laughing at the end of it, like what were

(34:33):
we even arguing about to begin with. So it's the
evolution of what our sex life has been. It's been interesting.
It's been a rollercoaster. Now that I no longer have
an IUD in me and he's had the visectomy, I'm
seeing how my body is starting to regulate.

Speaker 4 (34:50):
Yeah, I had my hormones level check.

Speaker 2 (34:52):
Hormone levels checked as well too, so they chested my
you know, estrogen, my testosterone. Like those are also things
that I've looked into because I'm like, if there's supplements
that I need to take or something that can help
me better have control over my body, or if it's
going to help my sex drive, then why not?

Speaker 4 (35:08):
Because I'm trying to match homeboy over here. Like you
know what I'm saying. I want him to be ultimately satisfied.
I just wanted to just quick if you just did
like a visual display of like where you were, if
you're like here on the sex drive barometer before and
opposite ends.

Speaker 3 (35:22):
Are you like here now? Are you here?

Speaker 1 (35:24):
If if I had to say, like say, for example,
before when it was like optit zero, before it was
like ten and zero, and then after we got off
of the birth control, it was more like ten to
three once I got to vasectomy and she wasn't concerned
about getting pregnant.

Speaker 3 (35:41):
Now it's more like seven to ten.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
I guess it's closer now, like and before when it
was just like I don't know she's going to be
into it today.

Speaker 3 (35:48):
Yeah, she's always into it now yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:50):
And sometimes I'll go in with the expectation I should say, like, Okay,
tonight's about him, so I'm gonna jerk him off, I'm
gonna give him head.

Speaker 4 (35:59):
I'm shouldn't be it's him.

Speaker 2 (36:00):
But in the middle of that, even I may not
even be thinking about sex, I'm like this is just
for him, but seeing how he reacts to me, I'd
be like, you know what, let me do that thing
and real quick.

Speaker 4 (36:11):
Because I end up wanting it.

Speaker 3 (36:12):
And that's why I suspect.

Speaker 4 (36:14):
Yeah, before it.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
Used to be I'm gonna do this, but I'm just
going I'm gonna roll my eyes, I'm gonna you know,
I'm gonna suck my teeth. You get your nunt right.
You said you want it to nothing. I'm nothing like,
don't make this a thing, and I'm like, dang, this
is not I'm not enjoying this right, But now a
lot of times it's just like baby, I just want
to jerk you off. I just want to give your head.
So now I'm sitting back and enjoying the head. And
then she stands up. I'm like what happened and she's like, well,
you know, I'm like all right, well let's go. You know,

(36:37):
it's like, all right, I didn't expect you to want
it because we've done it two nights in the row.
The third night, I automatically know, like typically she's going
through something, either she's sore or she's like, babe, I'm
just I'm good. Now She like, nah, I want something
that was never the case before. So I would say
ten to seven.

Speaker 4 (36:53):
You know, ten and seven, that's crazy from zero from zero,
it's gonna jump from like four to seven, said astronomical jump.

Speaker 3 (37:01):
Jan, It's a complete complete change.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
But but will I will say to something that you
spoke about, and I wanted to ask you this too,
oxytoastin and testosterone. We never discuss like how men get
affected by that?

Speaker 3 (37:15):
Why is that?

Speaker 4 (37:17):
Can I just want I just want to jump back
to the sex talk thing and then we go right
into this it comes afterwards, and feel free to cut
me out here, But I just wanted to say, because
just going back to that comment of who wants it
the least determines how much sex you have, I feel
like when you're at that place of ten and zero,
the first step is to do what you guys did,
which is the hard individual work of really asking yourself,

(37:38):
like why is my drive low? Talking to a doctor,
talking to friends, really assessing what your own levels are,
getting a baseline understanding of like why am I at
where I'm at today, and then at that point you
could start to come up with some solutions for it. Okay,
here's what my turn on triggers are here's what I
feel like anymore of in the relationship, more in the bedroom,
more when it comes to my health. Like those, you

(37:59):
can start to do the tr trial period and then
once you have that information. Because I love what you
guys are talking about right now, which really speaks to
something people need to understand about sex drives, specifically in
longer term relationships, is there's not just one kind of
desire anymore, and the media really places one kind of
desire on a pedestal as the only legitimate desire, and
that spontaneous desire where I just naturally want it.

Speaker 3 (38:23):
I look at you.

Speaker 4 (38:23):
You talked about in the book, that like feeling of
we weren't even planning it, but my body just took over.
And there's something really beautiful about spontaneous desire. But doesn't
discount the fact that majority of people in long term
relationships won't feel that anymore. And there's actually a good
scientific reason why you can't. Oh really, because and I
love this fact. This is from Helen Fisher. She said,
she's a neuro biologist that if people continue to feel

(38:47):
that rush every time their partner past, that like butterflies
in your stomach, your pupils dilate, your heart quickens, your
lips rush with blood, your genitals rush with blood. That
process is actually really stressful on the body, so it
would shorten your life expectancy. It damages tissue, it causes
a cortisol spider.

Speaker 3 (39:04):
So there's literally a reason why the.

Speaker 4 (39:06):
Base you guys, you work together, you parent together, and
you're experiencing continuous, spontaneous desire. It's almost like being back
in middle school where you're like, why do I have
a boner during this religion class?

Speaker 2 (39:18):
Right?

Speaker 3 (39:19):
This is not the time?

Speaker 2 (39:20):
Right? Right?

Speaker 4 (39:21):
Does that make sense? Though?

Speaker 3 (39:23):
Not so good.

Speaker 4 (39:26):
Because and you have experienced what's called responsive desire, and
that means okay, once we're actually engaged in the act,
maybe five minutes in, sometimes responsive desire does not kick in.
I don't really feel like reciprocating, but sometimes mid ten
minutes in, that's my body is like, okay, now I'm
starting to turn on the rest of those systems that
get me into a state of arousal and of reciprocally

(39:47):
wanting it, which should always be the goal.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
See see once again the scientific facts. As a man,
when your wife doesn't desire you the same way, spontaneously
you feel like something's wrong with you.

Speaker 3 (40:01):
I've asked K before, like, yo, is it me?

Speaker 1 (40:04):
Because when we was in college, like the minute I
walk in the room, you like, and then we just
at each other.

Speaker 3 (40:09):
But now it's like, what is it? She's like, I
don't know.

Speaker 1 (40:11):
Now to understand that there's actually a scientific reason as
to why people's bodies changed like that, it makes me
feel like, oh, I understand.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
Yeah, he's not internalizing anymore. He's like, should I grow
the beard back? You know? Yo?

Speaker 4 (40:24):
I did I lose like two ads?

Speaker 2 (40:26):
You know.

Speaker 4 (40:26):
She wants me to be leaner. Do you want me
to be bigger?

Speaker 2 (40:29):
And I was just like no, I'm still attracted to you,
like you're the guy for me, Like you're my You're
my dream, You're everything come true.

Speaker 1 (40:35):
But I just but I sometimes I don't think women
understand what men go through. I still get a boner
when she walking a room, yes on everything, Like she
walked out. I was outside, she walked down this green
thing and the minute she turned around, it was like
she walked back inside. I was like, I was like,

(40:57):
I was like, gosh, I gotta get this down before.

Speaker 3 (40:59):
I walk back. I guess and she'll tell you.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
We'll be out somewhere about to do an interview and
she'll be like whispering to me to say something.

Speaker 3 (41:06):
I'll look at her, She's like what, and I'm like
I can't stand up, and she'd.

Speaker 1 (41:09):
Like the bath and I'm like, I literally did not
ask for this, Like I was not asking for this.
And sometimes I feel like she looks at me like
what is wrong with you? And I'm like, my body
just responding to you.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
I'm not I feel like okay, because I'm not like
dripping wet every time I see you, like is there
something wrong with me now? So I'm always in this
constant like raised to keep up with him and then
questioning like why can't get there or why require.

Speaker 4 (41:35):
A little bit more?

Speaker 2 (41:36):
You know?

Speaker 4 (41:36):
Do you know what's interesting? Kind of not on topic,
but kind of on topic. But Sarah Perell, whom do
you guys follow, so phenomenal. She's in the white world,
but she's the queen of the white world when it
comes to sex and relationships. And she said that based
only there was an anecdotal study of her practice or
an actual study, that women are turned on by men
who are great fathers, but doesn't work there the way around.

(41:58):
So you're talking about the ways the times that she
turns you on, but like you might desire him deeply,
but in times that are not necessarily sexual.

Speaker 3 (42:07):
No, that's true. That's that's that's very true. True.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
A lot of women say this and we don't want
to hear it when they say stuff like you know,
you know what turns me on doing the laundry, picking
the kids up the school, and you just want me
to do chores.

Speaker 3 (42:20):
No, it's true.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
Here the shirt off changing some white balls outside the
other day, and.

Speaker 3 (42:24):
I was just like okay, and I'm like, the.

Speaker 4 (42:26):
Shirt off, playing it all with the kids. No, it
was like the kids holding the ladder and like holding.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
Like I'm looking at him with like four boys like
around him, and I'm just like, I just love that.

Speaker 4 (42:36):
You know that that don't work for me.

Speaker 1 (42:38):
For me, she'd be having one kid on her head,
but another kid is toes everywhere, and I'm like, yo,
you gotta put them kids asleep. But it's also understanding
how that works, so you don't judge your partner. That's
what I want people to understand when they watch this.
Also understand like it's twenty two years we figured it
out in twenty twenty how to get Better, But that
didn't mean we figured all things out. We never stopped

(42:59):
the practice of trying to figure it out. People automatically
assume even when I spoke to the gentleman from Nice
and Knee podcasts, how did you get here? And when
I tell them that we're still working on it, they're
just like.

Speaker 4 (43:11):
That, at what point do you figure it out and
then off into the sunset?

Speaker 2 (43:17):
There's no moment figure it out and ride off into
the sunset?

Speaker 4 (43:20):
Is that practical?

Speaker 3 (43:22):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (43:22):
The sunset that day the end of the day. You
can have an amazing day and you figure it out,
and then the sun is going to rise.

Speaker 3 (43:33):
It's a new day, and now I gotta start all over. God,
I feel you.

Speaker 4 (43:36):
It's not necessarily like that tight. It can be that
tight for some people. It's more on their cycle. It's
on the phase of life that they're in. It can
be like just a momentary thing. But yeah, like, yeah,
you can definitely ride off into the sunset and that's
the joy. Like I always think about this as such
a stupid anecdote, but I'm like, they keep coming out
with new iPhones. This thing can like set off nuclear bombs?

Speaker 3 (43:58):
What else do we need? Right?

Speaker 2 (44:00):
Right?

Speaker 4 (44:01):
It's an insane gadget, but it's constant. It's the human spirit,
it's the joy of humanity. We're always improving, we're always
looking for more, We're always changes are constant. So why
would that not apply to your sex life? And then
why can't that be a positive thing? Why do I
have to long for the days that I was like
a team, like those feelings I used to have when
the feelings that I have now are so much more

(44:23):
complex and interesting, and then invite exploration. I was even
gonna say that, like sometimes I think about this, going
back to the point when me at the top of
you were saying like, well, men have to understand that
they don't have the same bodies as women's. They're coming
to men for advice, and it's like it's not actually true.
Like essentially your penis and cadal I'm sorry, I always

(44:44):
do is cadals these glitterists is made up of buying
large the same parts, the same tissue, right, Yeah, similarly
to the skins, gland and the prostate your nipples for example,
Like me and Jared are flipped on this, like I
am like get away and then he was like, bring
me all the tongues. I mean the tongues, the vibrators,

(45:05):
the clams and everything at once, the ice. And so
it's not that we're all that different. It's said that
men are just not invited to explore. Right, the back
of your knee might be just as sensitive as an
erogenous zone, but you're just not even invited to touch
and play with yourself in that way. And then it
feels weird if your partner does it, and maybe it's
ticklish for the first time, or you don't get the response,

(45:25):
they never revisited again. So it's not that men are
our bodies are very different, but your bodies are so
much less explored, even when we're talking about you know,
beyond hair loss and erections, your bodies are just really
not explored as much. So in your I guess studies
or your expert opinion.

Speaker 2 (45:43):
Do you think that there's a deficit in like studies
of what men require and need and like, how can
we facilitate that as women because I don't want for
him or which most of the wives that I speak
to happily married, but like this is an issue for them.
And again, like Deval said, to his point, he feels
like some times men are disregarded in their feelings because
it's like, all right, well, you're gonna have to deal

(46:04):
with it. Women, for example, we have PMS or we
have our period, so it's like it's expected that we're
going to have those mood swings. It's expected that we're
not gonna want things sexually. But should we shun our
men for saying I want this more frequently because I
require it because biologically or my body needs that.

Speaker 4 (46:22):
I think there's just more questions to be asked. That's
all across the board, Like it doesn't start there. I'll
just give a basic example is on my podcast, I
had Tenariel, whom you're talking about the stallion as being
like same thing. Tennarielle is like six feet tall, huge afro,
just gorgeous, like body, Addy Audi everything, But she was
talking about masturbation for women, like the way that she

(46:43):
did it, where it was like a two hour experience,
slowly touching her head, changing her body, looking at herself
in the mirror, eye gazing, moving her hands slowly around
different parts of her body, dancing around her genitals but
not touching, grabbing her own ass jiggling it, massage her feet,
and then we're all like okay, yeah, And that's how

(47:03):
you learn your body, That's how you communicate with your
partner what you like. Through this experience of self exploration,
you discover like wow, like I didn't know that would
feel good for me. It allows you to invite that
into the conversation. Now, let's just take out t Nara
yell and all her goddessness and insert devout Right.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
Oh, I can see a baby.

Speaker 4 (47:23):
So I've done things like that for him.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
So like when he's been away, for example, like he
was filming for like two three weeks during Canada for
like six weeks at a time, and he's like, send
me a video and I'm like, good god, what this
iCloud look like?

Speaker 3 (47:36):
Chick?

Speaker 4 (47:38):
Check this eye class.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
But it was funny how in setting up a camera
right and me self exploring for him. Of course, it's
the idea of like, I want to be sexy for
him in this moment, but then I start using things
in my hands and other tools to feel sexy and
then realize saying like, oh, I kind of like the

(48:02):
way that feels there. So then I'll say to him, babe,
use this when you come home or whatever. It's it's
very like empowering as a woman, but it also is
like wow, the discovery of places and zones that I
didn't even know existed. So that's been something we've done
in the past, you know, when we're having that time apart.

(48:22):
So once we get back together, it's like, oh, yeah,
I'm going to try that super empowering.

Speaker 3 (48:27):
Yeah you you touched on something, no pun intended. How
men myself delights? I love it.

Speaker 4 (48:37):
If I were walking on that, I guess at least
I know what you're doing. I know what you're doing.

Speaker 3 (48:42):
But the truth is men don't feel comfortable exploring themselves.
You know.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
Part of that comes from years of homophobia, right like men,
especially black men.

Speaker 3 (48:52):
I don't touch myself, but we don't do that.

Speaker 1 (48:53):
I need a girl, you know, So how do you
know what you like if you don't touch yourself. I
realized years ago. I love making out. It doesn't always
have to end in sects. And I used to say
to Kadeen, like, how come you don't ever just come
jump on me and we just kiss and hug and
touch on each other, And she's like, because you don't
want to fuck afterwards, and sometimes I just don't want
to fuck and I'm like, so now we can't we

(49:15):
can't make out because you're not gonna want to fuck later,
And I'm just like, that's part of my oxytocin what
I need. You know what I'm saying. And it's like, damn, Like,
because you're worried about the end result, you don't give
me something else that I need. That's the intimacy component.
That's why I love listening to you, because it's not
always just about the orgasm. You're not just a sex

(49:36):
coach but also an intimacy coach. How important is it
for women to constantly touch on their husbands or their
their significant other?

Speaker 3 (49:44):
I want to discuss that.

Speaker 4 (49:45):
Yeah, it's incredibly important, even when you were in the book,
which y'all get the book obviously, I've talked about a
million times and I could keep talking about it. It's
really good. I love I read a lot of books
about intimacy, relationships, connecting friendship. It is really phenomenal. It's like,
actually not giving me to and most things give me to.

(50:06):
Is that where we're at, That's where we're starting the conversation.
This is or the book I was not giving that
at all. But you talked about in the book being
touched out right what oftentimes men have the opposite experience
it you. I don't think you have this issue of
being affectionate with your kids, But I know for me
growing up, I have a dad whom I could go

(50:27):
into like a story with this. I'm trying to gauge
what I should say here, but essentially, for reasons of
my mom's past, seeing my dad affectionate with us would
be triggering with her for her sometimes, and so my
dad would use affection as a joke with us. It
would always be like a wrestle this so that it
was never like really allowed to be sensitive again. So

(50:49):
in many ways he had the opposite experience of my mom,
where it's like we were always wanting to hugger, We
always wanted kids because we knew that's who we could
go to for that. And so in your only my
only my dad's only outlet, it's not his sisters, it's
not his mom, it's his only outlet for affection was
my mom. And so it's not just even just about
necessarily looking for sexual touch. And then maybe for a

(51:10):
lot of men too, they've never even tapped into the
idea that I just need to corregulate, like I feel
stressed out, I feel like, you know, I need to
make out. It could be even just be an you
need to be held for a second.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
That'd be me.

Speaker 3 (51:20):
Yeah, I say that all the time.

Speaker 4 (51:22):
And because you don't want to admit that, it's easier
to say, well, I just want to fuck, because that's
the way that you get the coregulation, you get the
intimate touch, you get the connection.

Speaker 3 (51:31):
And you get the or gas.

Speaker 4 (51:32):
Right like that almost becomes a cherry on top versus
like what the actual goal of intimacy is. And so
I just think that men just don't get to go
through these explorations enough to really ask like, Okay, what
is it about sex that I crave so much?

Speaker 1 (51:46):
Does that not sound like how I was in college
in my first few years in the NFL, I'd be
having a bad day or something and I just want
to fuck because I thought that that's what it was.
It wasn't until I got older when I just like,
I want my wife to sit on me, let me
hold you, then let's kiss, let's make out. I'll fall asleep.
I don't care. But I didn't realize until I got
older that fucking wasn't the thing. It was the the affection.

(52:10):
I crave, affection like I crave and you know how
you talked about your mom having a traumatic pass I
think it was traumatic for me because I didn't get
affection in my house like that, Like I didn't. My
mom wasn't affection. My mom was very much like militant,
do as I say. You know, she showed her affection
by Valentine's Day. She got us cards and gifts and

(52:30):
was just like, I'm going to show you appreciate it.
But my mom's not a hugger. She's not a you know,
a kiss I love you, son. It was never like that.
My dad wasn't like that either, So I yearned for that.
So now that I have a wife, I'm like, I
want that for my wife all the time. But at
first I thought it was just sex. Now I'm like,
it's not just sex. I want affection.

Speaker 2 (52:50):
And for me, I grew up also in not in
a very affectionate environment like my parents were, like.

Speaker 4 (52:55):
We showed that we loved you because we provided for
you and we.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
Gave like those are the things that those are the
love languages right, So when I'm now fast forward with
devound devalu just like wanting to be touched and felton
all the time and huggy and kissing, I'm just kind
of like I'm good like because that's just what I
was accustomed to. So how have you noticed, I guess,
in your expert opinion, how people are affected by their

(53:21):
past when it comes to affection and that desire for it.

Speaker 4 (53:25):
How what's the correlation? Yeah, I think of what's so
great about fixed orientations, like the idea that we're just
born in certain ways just gives us permission to be
and there's not a lot of like range in what
we think of, like is a disposition or orientation. I
think some people are just naturally just desire touch more.
They require more regulation, and there could be various reasons

(53:47):
for that. And I think that there's also a big
part of it too, where we have to assess as women,
we might get that affection from friends, We're getting it
maybe somewhat from our parents, we get it from our siblings,
we might do it with our dolls. And then as
we grow older, you know, we do that, we have
that with our children, and so then that's a natural
explanation as to one why you just weren't that wasn't

(54:07):
how you were raised too. Maybe naturally you just don't
require that much type of you know, physical intimacy. And
on top of that, you're getting your knees met from
a lot of other different places, and so there's like
a whole That's what I mean, like just bringing the
conversation a little bit wider. I'm really asking like, well,
why am I the way that I am? And then
respecting that and understanding that, and then I really want

(54:28):
to talk about in my podcast. I'm trying to like
save it. But the real truth is, like the long
the TLDR of this is like the journey of respecting,
which is not a decision, right, Like, if I really
want to respect you, it's not a choice that I make.
It's an exploration that I'm willing to go through. That's
I'm willing to go.

Speaker 1 (54:47):
Yeah, because exploration happens through over time. Yes, And people
think that it's a choice. Once I make this choice,
it should be instantaneous, right. I think that's part of
the problem. Both men and women go through a lot
of men and women want to change for their partner,
but they just wanted to be instantaneously, not realizing that
it's a journey and it's going to be a number
of choices that have to be made over a specific

(55:07):
amount of time. You want to spend the rest of
your life with this person, be committed to exploring them
for the rest of your life.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
Yes, you know exactly. That makes so much sense now
that I think about it. Which to our point, babe,
when we've been looking at the span of the past
twenty years, Deval's kind of like, well, I told you
the things that I want, so why can't you just
change all of them in one breath and that be it,
and then everything should be fine. We can write off
into the sunset where with me, certain things took longer

(55:35):
to click, for example, not just intercourse, right, he said,
time and time again, how about you try these different
things that will just show me that you're interested in
making sure that I'm satisfied. But it's also not going
to require as much from you. And for so long,
I don't know why it took years for it to click.

(55:58):
Try to understand, like why I feel why why I
felt that way?

Speaker 4 (56:01):
It took so long?

Speaker 2 (56:04):
Yokah, you know right, I'm not sure I'm not sure
why this part made me emotional, but.

Speaker 4 (56:16):
I felt badly.

Speaker 2 (56:19):
And more recently, I guess in the past couple of
years that it's taken me so long to just give
him the things that he requires, you know, because he's
a phenomenal man, phenomenal father, phenomenal husband, and maybe because
I was just so focused on like being a mom
and like going through all of the physical changes over

(56:42):
the past decade, that I really wasn't focused on what
he required. So more recently, I've been trying to make
sure that I'm just focusing on what he requires, and
I see how that lights him up, and I guess
I'm crime because it's like being a bit upset at myself,
but then also like seeing the happiness that he is

(57:06):
exuding now because I'm really taking the time to focus
and think about the things he needs. And though all
the changes aren't happening at once, the small changes that
I've been making makes me feel better because it makes
me feel like I'm giving him the things that he deserves.
And I guess that's me pretty much saying like taking

(57:27):
the steps to explore each other in the journey and
then finally like putting those things into action to change
for him is important to me.

Speaker 4 (57:37):
I just want you to know it's important to me.

Speaker 1 (57:39):
Oh no, I appreciate that, and I know it's important.
I know it's important. And sometimes sometimes I think for
us too as people. I've learned that once I said
once again about intent and impact, right, I intended to
tell Okay something where I may intend to tell Kase
something that I don't realize it's impacting her in a
way that may be hurtful.

Speaker 3 (57:58):
I hate what she says to me.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
I feel inadequate, and I'm like, dang, I don't know
how to tell you that I may require something different
without you feeling inadequate.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
Sometimes we struggle with that.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
You know.

Speaker 1 (58:10):
It's like, Bait, I'm not saying that I want to
be with anybody else so I want to do something.
I'm just saying that let's pivot and try something different,
And she's like, well, I've been trying these things.

Speaker 3 (58:18):
Sometimes for us it's like hard.

Speaker 2 (58:20):
Like I think what made me emotionless because it just
it really matters to me.

Speaker 4 (58:24):
It matters to me. And it's like Devo is an
amazing human.

Speaker 3 (58:28):
Being and you are too. You got to know that, Like.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
Thank you, but me feeling like I haven't been able
to like hold my weight when it comes to sex
or the things that he requires. It really bothered me,
like I would question and internalize it and feel like,
why can't it just click to me? Why can't I
just start doing all of the things that he asks
for do it in the manner in which he's asked
for it. It's like, why is it taking me so

(58:52):
long to just do it? Because I make the conscious
effort when it comes to the kids, or it comes
to work, or if a job requires something of me,
like I just do it. But why should he have
to be put on the back burner? Why should his
feelings or his needs be put in the back burner?
And I think that's just like a self reflection moment
for me to realize, like people prioritize the things they

(59:13):
want to prioritize as far and I've just been making
a conscious effort within the past five years and more recently,
I feel like since he's gotten has vien tech to
me to really pour into what it is that he
needs and giving him exactly what he requires, Like it's
not enough to just say, well, you know, you freaking
nutted three four times this week, like you're having more
sex than the average married man, Like that's just not

(59:35):
enough for him. And I'm just letting him know, and
I guess letting everybody know now that we're in this
space that like that's just a focus of mine moving
forward into this next chapter of what our life is
going to look like, because I hear in the forties
it gets better, Like I guess is that true to
women's sex drives go up in the forties.

Speaker 4 (59:55):
I don't know if that's a myth or not, but well.

Speaker 1 (59:57):
Here's the thing, babe, I don't I want you to
understand this too. You keep saying time right, time is relative.
We've been together twenty two years. Okay, so it took
you a couple of years to figure something out, but
we still have eighty more years of life to live.
You understand what I'm saying, Like, like, if you always
think of things in terms of like it took me
this long and this, then it's always seemed daunting. But

(01:00:18):
then when you look at how much more life we
have to live together, God willing we live to be
eighty years old, that means we have forty more years. Yeah,
it took you may a couple of years to figure
this out, but now we have forty more years with
the work that you've already figured out, but the work
I've also figured out. Right, you weren't going through that
process by yourself, right, We were doing the work together,

(01:00:39):
So you also had to let me get some information
to help you through the process. It wasn't only on you,
which is why I keep telling you, like, stop stop
internalizing and taking it all on yourself. I had to
learn that too, because remember I used to say to
myself saying all the time, what's wrong with me? Now
I may not cry, but I will be like, yo,

(01:00:59):
what is wrong with me that I can't you know?

Speaker 3 (01:01:01):
At one point I was like, do I have a
sex addiction? You know? And at one point I was like,
am I over affectionate? Am I?

Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
Am I not being aware of what my wife may
need in this moment like these the same way you're
going through those introspective moments. I continuously go through those.
But what I find joy is knowing that we're working
on it together. So if there's ever a moment where
we're not exactly on the same page, it's not what
we've been together. Twenty two years we should notice by
now it's like, let's go on another journey. It could

(01:01:26):
take another five years, right, but then we still got
forty more years of life.

Speaker 3 (01:01:30):
You know what I'm saying. It's perspective.

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
That's that's how I've been approaching it, you know, So
I just want you to know that too, though, Like
you know, I.

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
Guess the perfectionist in me is just like, why can't
I get this right? Like you know, I get everything
else right? You know, why can't I get this right
with a person who means the absolute most to me?

Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
But who are you not getting it right? I think
you are getting it right by working, working, working on
it is actually getting it right. When you get it
wrong is when you quit right.

Speaker 4 (01:01:56):
That's what you do, is quit right.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
Like that's the biggest thing if you're not. But I mean,
these are but these also are emotions you got to
let out. And sometimes this is why it's good to
speak to people other than me about this, Like this
is the first time I've seen you break down like
this about this Because you're speaking to someone else, maybe
you should just.

Speaker 4 (01:02:12):
Speak this era. I mean, I had no idea that
I was walking into a therapy session.

Speaker 3 (01:02:18):
I had no idea, I know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:22):
But serious though, I mean, sometimes you need to express
this to someone else because you don't feel comfortable saying
it to me. But now I heard it because you've
expressed it in front of someone else to me. So
this is a learning moment not just for you, it's
for me too, Like I'm like, okay, I see where
you are with it, where your mentality is, so we
build off that.

Speaker 4 (01:02:40):
It's that simple, so beautiful. Sorry, it's so beautiful. And
I'm only thinking that because I know you from a
limited POV and you know limited thing and I don't
feel like you said anything really new just there, but
I felt, like, what I think the difference A friend
of mine actally said this beaks because they talk about

(01:03:01):
their partner a lot. Their partner has certain like isms, right,
like that they just talk about their isms in like,
h that kind of way. I just noticed recently. It's
not that the conversation has changed. The isms are still there,
but there's a lovingness to how she talks about it,
and there's a knowingness how she talks about it, like
I know this about them. So here's what I build in.
And I asked him, like, what's the difference, like they're

(01:03:21):
just always seem to have this positive spin on these
parts of the person. And then she's like, I think
I just started to feel like he did that for me,
like for a really long time. I want to let's
stop there, Like.

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
No, you're right, It's like he's done so many things
for me, so it's like, why can't I reciprocate that?

Speaker 4 (01:03:40):
But also I think what helped me is sometimes you
need it done for you to feel inspired to make
that change for somebody else, and that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:48):
Happens a lot in you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:49):
Because I feel like it shouldn't have been that right,
because why I should have been just if he wants
to naturally do these things for me, then it should
just like what it makes me feel like.

Speaker 4 (01:04:00):
If this sounds weird.

Speaker 2 (01:04:01):
Like he loves me more than I love him, Like
that's what he said to me before, and he was like, well,
I love you this much and I'm willing to do
all these things, and I'm like, but I love you
just as much. Just because I'm not doing those things
doesn't take away from the fact that I love.

Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
You, and I have said that, I've felt that before,
I've legitimately felt like, damn, do I love her more
than she loved me because I'm willing to do anything
she wants to do. But when it comes to things
I ask, it's always a caveat. I've said that before.
Maybe that's why you feel like that because I've said it.

Speaker 4 (01:04:27):
So I'm just like, and it's really hard to do
things you don't feel like you're good at. Yeah, nobody
wants to do math that they're getting a fucking DP
like you want it. Your favorite subject is always the
subject that you're doing really good at. So it's difficult,
as much as it should be more logical to be
more motivated to excel in this area because you want
to please your partner and you want all those things.

(01:04:48):
If you feel like you're bad at it, or starting
from a place where you're bad, that's.

Speaker 3 (01:04:52):
A good point though.

Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
If there's been like this dark cloud around sex for
so long that it's like I feel like the cloud
was just following me, like I couldn't escape the storm
of the conversations that we've had.

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
Shan has but she remember when you said to me
you didn't like to do the dress up and stuff
because you didn't feel sexy.

Speaker 3 (01:05:08):
Yeah, that's literally exactly what you don't do it because
you don't like.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
You didn't feel Yeah, I didn't feel like I didn't
feel sexy because we've had the conversation about like playing
dress up and role play, and I'm just like, like,
if I start to do this now, like he's gonna
think I'm only doing it because he's asked for it,
and I'm in my own head about it, you know.
But what's helped me to your to answer your question
to her to kind of piggyback off my response. Learning

(01:05:34):
how to take accountability has helped me with a lot
of the progress I feel like I've been able to make.
I had a problem with taking accountability.

Speaker 4 (01:05:44):
I used to deflect. I used to defer, I used
to find a reason why.

Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
I used to find an excuse, and Deval would call
me on it, because Deval was just like, he's not
a bullshitter. He's like, give me the straight you know,
straight drink, no chaser. And I've learned to be accountable
for my actions in a facet of the multifaceted, like
you know areas. Now that I'm able to do that,
I think that's why I'm able to execute the things

(01:06:08):
more or one of the reasons why I'm able to
execute the things that he wants more because not only
do I feel like he deserves it because he gives
the same thing to me, or because he's the amazing
person that he is and he requires that and he
should have it, but I'm also sitting back and saying
I need to take responsibility for how I've acted or
the things I haven't acted on, and that I think

(01:06:30):
has helped me get a better perspective to make it
a healthy thought process for me and a healthy way
to execute things versus trying to like tiptoe or dance
around it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
You're right, Yeah, I think you need something to drink,
and I think you need to take a break.

Speaker 3 (01:06:46):
I knew, I seriously do.

Speaker 1 (01:06:47):
I don't want you to be you know, you shared
a lot, but also like you're a human at the
same time, like shann said, like sometimes you got to like,
let's take a break. We're gonna take a break, have
a drink, you need.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
A hug, I'll take a shot straight, no chase it. No, Yeah,
we can take a break. We'll we'll you know, do
the necessary bill paying and whatnot. I'll get myself together
and then we'll be back all right, now that we're back,

(01:07:28):
we got ourselves together.

Speaker 4 (01:07:29):
We had a shot or two.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
Maybe we're gonna lean on you shan to jump into
listener letters since you are our expert for this episode.

Speaker 4 (01:07:42):
You guys are experts too, you know, actually really been
leaning into making sure that my title is educator teacher
one of my certification for that. Really support that and too,
I like, really everybody's an expert and so rather than
like I think that separates us, and in terms of knowledge,
you know things that I don't know, and you have got,
you know, answers to questions that I still have. So

(01:08:02):
like we're both experts. I just spend more time learning
and teaching, and so that's where my that's where I'm
better than you.

Speaker 2 (01:08:08):
Yeah, more experts, like you know, all the things you
create the safe space, like it just.

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):
Became that I'm gonna read, I'm gonna listen, but I try,
and we're going to try.

Speaker 3 (01:08:20):
Because I'm definitely expert.

Speaker 4 (01:08:22):
You're putting your ten thousand hours, what twenty two years?

Speaker 3 (01:08:25):
Yes, make an experts. Yeah, you guys are experts.

Speaker 4 (01:08:30):
Shut out, Come on me up then, bro dap me up.

Speaker 2 (01:08:34):
All right, So let's jump into this listen, let it,
and we will use your educational experience to talk about
what's happening here. All right, Hey, so, I just want
to start by saying I love you both. I've been
following your journey for almost eight years now and listening
to the podcast in season one. I can go on
and on about how much I love y'all, but let
me get to the point because it's a lot to
unpack and I don't want to leave anything out.

Speaker 4 (01:08:56):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
So, me and my husband have been together for eight
year and married for a little over one year. We
have two kids together, and I believe that we have
a great relationship. Anyway, sex has always been a thing
in our relationship, even prior to marriage. Like us, my
husband wants to have sex all the time, and I'm
just not that person. I would be okay with sex
once a month for no more than twenty minutes. So

(01:09:20):
we got down to the minute show. I know, don't
judge me because of my lack of desire to have sex.
I've allowed my husband then boyfriend to have sex with
someone else. I hate that decision and that I wish
it didn't happen. Moving on, I expressed to him that
I'm also interested in women sexually, and he was all
for it. I had encounters with women on my own

(01:09:43):
and we had a couple threesomes not page two, page hard.
She said it was a lot to unpacked. We discussed
boundaries before then and everything was cool. We continue this
going into our marriage, the threesomes and him allowing me
to be with other women on my own. But now
I want to stop because now I feel like my

(01:10:05):
husband has become too wrapped up in it. Every time
we go out, he's looking for another woman to enjoy
having threesomes with, and our date nights have become unenjoyable.
He sparks up random conversations with other women and tells
them that I'm into women, literal strangers we just met,
and it's so annoying. This is his way of flirting
with other women to see if they're interested. But sometimes

(01:10:25):
I just want to meet people and it be just
that meeting them. Now, I will take accountability for my part,
because there are times we go out and I do
want to do that, meaning have a threesome, but sometimes
I don't. I just want to enjoy my husband, and
for some reason he can't get it. Every time I
express this to him, he turns it into an argument
because my feelings are back and forth. According to him,

(01:10:50):
Page three, Page threeeeste, I hate that three somes have
become the center of our relationship and seems to be
the only way we connect. Yes, I would like to
continue to do it once in a bloom moon, but
my husband wants to do it every chance we get.
And because of the disconnect here, I just want to stop.
I feel like, because I've accepted it for so long

(01:11:10):
and went into the marriage, can I even change my mind.
I feel like if we stop, it'll affect my marriage
because my husband really enjoys it, and our sex is
kind of blah compared to threesomes. I don't satisfy him
sexually when it's just me. This is partly because I
don't like it, but I also don't know what I like.

Speaker 1 (01:11:31):
He don't satisfy her sexually neither clearly too, because she
lays women. It's not just him not being satisfied.

Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
We have two kids and work full time, and after
a long day of work, I'm tired, and honestly, I
don't get enjoyment from our sex. I feel like I'm
talking in circles. Now, so question is how can I
communicate to my husband that I no longer want to
have three sums because of the issue it CAUs and
also make our life, our sex life better.

Speaker 3 (01:11:59):
Wow? Wow wow.

Speaker 4 (01:12:01):
You ever get not or like a necklace that gets
into a knot, then the knot is so big and
it's like a chain, so it's so hard to get
out and you can't yank it, get that no out.
It's like a slow process with a needle of going
each individual, not like a Rubik's cube. Sometimes then you
find yourself on a path that like you're actually making

(01:12:21):
it worse. So that's just the process they have to
go under. I mean we could have stopped at half
page and been like, oh, like exactly that you guys
were nodding along like oh yeah, we've been there, we've
been there, and eventually were like, oh no, this is
not our story.

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:12:36):
And if you were to give advice to the very
first part of when you acknowledge that there is a
disparity in how much sex you want and for how
long you want it, like, what do you think they
should have done at that point?

Speaker 3 (01:12:50):
This is my issue, right.

Speaker 1 (01:12:53):
It seems like she's cool with stuff as long as
she wants to do it right, Like she wants to
have sex twenty minutes once a long. You want to
have three someomes, cool, I'm cool with three someomes. But
I'm only cool with three someomes when I want to
do three somemes. That's not fair to me. That's what
I want to see. No one ever wants to address
the elephant in the room. But you can't say to
somebody who we're in life partnership is like, we're only

(01:13:14):
going to do the things you want to do when
I want to do them. That's just not fair.

Speaker 4 (01:13:17):
It's exactly the same. That's for him though he's only
getting to do it when he wants to do it,
But he's not having toroise and do things sexually that
he doesn't want to do. So it's the same. We're
going off of his desires, and then she's just saying
on the hundred times that you desire it, here's the
eight that I actually am also enthusiastically interested.

Speaker 3 (01:13:36):
But are we really going on for his desires?

Speaker 1 (01:13:38):
If she says she told him she's into women, so
he's like, cool, you like women, I like women, let's
do women and she's like, fine, let's do women. But
now she's like, oh, he's enjoying himself too much. I
don't want to do this anymore. So it's like, we
can do this only up until I want to do it.
I don't see that same thing for him.

Speaker 4 (01:13:57):
You know what, I passed you the ball, Deval. I
thought you're going to play on team, and now that
you're not, your regress I really want to understand.

Speaker 3 (01:14:04):
I really want to understand, Like, but.

Speaker 2 (01:14:06):
Is it a thing too where it's like you started
a bad habit and then now it's like, how do
you pull back from that bad habit?

Speaker 4 (01:14:11):
What do you think, Shan? So I think that yeah,
the step one is just really going back to the
fact that it seems like you guys have never addressed
the fact that you don't like to have the same
kind of sex. Yes, you've never addressed the fact that
he's not pleased in the bedroom, he finds it boring,
and that you're not excited to do it either, right,
And so that's the larger questions. And a part of
that is not just you know, a partner base that

(01:14:34):
could be hormonal, that could be her ideals around you
know what you're supposed to do when you're married. It
could be his ideas or you know, the rules of
a wife. There's so much conversations that could have started
at that point. So that's already one incompatiy. Incompatibility that
you have when you start a relationship. There's hopefully eighty
percent of the areas that you have compatibility. The magic
we click, we click, we get. There's positives with that

(01:14:56):
because we're on a natural flow. The negative is when
we don't click here. Because life is ever changing and
we're always changing, sometimes troubleshooting those areas can be hard.
If we've always been aligned on finances and all of
a sudden something changes, that can be more difficult. So
sometimes I actually think incompatibilities from the start are a
benefit because you get into the culture of having the
hard conversations. But unfortunately you guys saw the incompatibility and

(01:15:18):
did nothing about it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:19):
That is true, so the conversations weren't being had. It
was just like, here's the band aid solution to it.

Speaker 4 (01:15:23):
Well, here's a problem. We'll just keep adding knots on
top of it and tying it really really tight to
try to get those knots out, making the issue worse
and then adding to the fact that this guy is
probably not monogamous. This is where we can bring in
vasuppress and oxytocin into the conversation of like being the
bonding hormone, the cuddle hormone. Vas depressing works in a
similar way for men, and they don't have studies on

(01:15:43):
this for human brains, but for other animals. For example, moles.
They have one mole, prairie mole, and there's volley moles.
One of those moles is very promiscuous and never settles down.
The other is extremely monogamous, and they studied it because
they look the exact same hole. But the difference is
one of the moles has heavy amounts of vasive pressing
in their brain.

Speaker 3 (01:16:04):
Is that to be said?

Speaker 4 (01:16:04):
There could be an argument that some people are just
naturally not designed for monogamy. And so it sounds like
her partner is like really excited by the idea. You
know that quote that you gave new pussy is what's
the official quote?

Speaker 3 (01:16:20):
There is no pussy is better than new pussy.

Speaker 4 (01:16:23):
Yeah, And there are some people who are like, I
have no idea what you're talking about, Like the known,
the comfort, the exploration, the safety, like, that's what's good
pussy to me, and that person is never going to
understand or empathize with you because their brain is so
attracted to novelge.

Speaker 3 (01:16:37):
Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (01:16:38):
So I just think that if we acknowledge that that's
probably an incompatibility that they have on top of the
other incompatibility, and then we get into another incompatibility that
they have, which comes with just respect or like what
their mutual long term goals are for the relationship. So
it's a hot mess and it's a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):
I think she needs to address the fact that she's
into women too. She's married to a man. Maybe you do,
I don't like to have sex with him often because
you're into women. You know, if she's into a women, right,
and she wants to have sex with women, but she's
married to a man, of course she don't want to
have sex with him every day.

Speaker 4 (01:17:09):
I didn't hear that.

Speaker 3 (01:17:10):
Did you hear that that she was just woman?

Speaker 4 (01:17:12):
She did feel like she I did hear that, But
I feel like it was I gave him permission to
have sex with other women because I recognize that I
didn't want to satisfy his drive. That bothered me that
he was doing that so then I thought to myself,
I guess I could participate because I'm kind of attracted
to women. She started participating in order to see if
that could satisfy him, so at least she's still involved.
And then she's so happy with me that she wasn't

(01:17:33):
really enthusiastic about that either.

Speaker 3 (01:17:35):
So you think that she's just not enthusiastic about sex
period or women or men. It could be.

Speaker 4 (01:17:40):
I think she said she had some soul play with
women that she liked, so maybe it couldn't That's what
I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:17:44):
That's why I thought, maybe she's into women and maybe
that's what skits her aroused. But she could be a
traditional woman that says, I have to marry a man,
so if I want kids, if I got to do
it this way.

Speaker 4 (01:17:55):
But maybe she trying to figure it out, figure it out.

Speaker 2 (01:17:58):
I was looking back to see if she gave an
age too, because I mean not to say that there's
an age women on like the journey and the exploration process,
but sometimes when you jump into things super early, you're
you're still trying to figure yourself out and figure out
what you like or what you don't like.

Speaker 4 (01:18:10):
Oh well, most women watch women on women porn. As
a stat may not be true for you, but I
know it was true for me when I started to
voice that that I don't identify as being bisexual or homosexual,
and what you're not supposed to say, queer, I don't
identify as being a lesbian or bisexual. But I exclusively
watch women on women porn. Why because when I watch

(01:18:32):
what they do to each other, I'm like, that looks exciting.
When I see a man in a porn and non
ethical porn especially, none of that seems fun to me.
I don't want to be her. I don't want to
be him. So in essence, maybe it's something she's attracted
or sexually attracted to women, But whatever her husband is
doing is so far from what she likes that she
knows she can't have sex another man. But at least

(01:18:54):
when she's with another woman, the things that she likes
are part of the conversation, the repertoire. So just meing
like we're having a good conversation here to really just
address there's a lot of there's a lot. There's a lot,
and if you go back, you just have to go
link by link here.

Speaker 1 (01:19:11):
Yes, they've been together eight years one year marriage. That's
almost a decade. It seems like they've never had a
conversation about sex, and that's part of the problem, because
if you'd have had that conversation early, you would know
how to make the adjustments.

Speaker 4 (01:19:25):
That's a good point I would say too, Like the
kind of lesson that I got from your guys is
because you're trying to offer advice, because I think about
you did such a funny reenactment of the nice and
neat guys. Their response when you were like, we're still
working on it, and they all do that this is
my future.

Speaker 2 (01:19:42):
What two of them are married and one engaged, right
is that what his yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:19:49):
Or newly married?

Speaker 2 (01:19:50):
I think Omar had celebrated one year to engage, and
then Jalan is married.

Speaker 3 (01:19:55):
I'm not sure he's engaged.

Speaker 4 (01:19:57):
He's engaged. It's getting married next month.

Speaker 2 (01:19:58):
So yeah, these are all like they're fresh and they're
just like, when's this going to end?

Speaker 4 (01:20:02):
And it's never gonna end.

Speaker 3 (01:20:03):
When I said we still work on it, they all.

Speaker 4 (01:20:05):
Literally was like, but the work is so different now.
It's like joyful, cooperative work and it doesn't have to
be as frequent. That troubleshooting is less and so if
you were to give advice to them of like, look,
it doesn't have to take you as long as it
took us, But that's because it took us a long
time to baseline respect where each person was at. And again,
respect not being a label but a verb. I actually

(01:20:29):
got the time to understand your body and a research postpartum.
I actually understood what your drives are and what your
needs are and why you know that story you told
about growing up that's such an aha for Like, that's
why this is so important to you in a marriage.
Like when you respect somebody, like you take that time
to explore and really get them and accept them. Now
that doesn't mean that you can't then say we accept

(01:20:49):
and I get why where you're where you're at. Now,
let's work on improving that and moving it somewhere. It's
a combination of respect than reject that has to happen.
But people just skip over the respect part and just
reject and say something is wrong with you. This has
to change, just has to fix.

Speaker 1 (01:21:03):
So don't skip over to respect just to go straight
to the reject.

Speaker 3 (01:21:07):
I like that, and you know mostimate, like I do.

Speaker 4 (01:21:09):
Respect and respects such a big word, but like understanding
what comes with that and the work that comes that.
Maybe you don't really really skip over that, and maybe
that's just the TLDR for them, is that this is
just like this whole thing reeks of a lack of respect.

Speaker 3 (01:21:22):
It does.

Speaker 2 (01:21:23):
So then if you were to chat with them, what's
what's the first step? Is it like dial to dial
back all of the layers and to kind of get
to the now, you know, not free necklace or chain?

Speaker 4 (01:21:36):
What would be the first step.

Speaker 3 (01:21:40):
You'd have to talk?

Speaker 4 (01:21:42):
I don't even know. I mean that could be. I'm
not somebody. I've never been to therapy before. I've been
to I've been to therapists, but I've never really like
engaged long term in like the therapeutic process. I actually
tried group therapy recently, like maybe this is my thing.
It was a retreat. I literally was like, I gotta leave.
It's just not doesn't worry.

Speaker 3 (01:22:04):
I'm better.

Speaker 4 (01:22:04):
I'm better with self help. Yes, I'm better with teachers.
I'm better with mentors, I'm better with guides. Right, it's
kind of like us a couple of goals. Like people
don't like that you guys are a couple of goals
to me, I learned so much from you. What Oh
my god, we can't really talk about that.

Speaker 1 (01:22:17):
It's such a it's such a high standard and pedestal,
and I hate I don't want to ever feit.

Speaker 3 (01:22:21):
I don't want people to ever.

Speaker 1 (01:22:22):
Feel like we walk around like follow us, because I
legit don't feel like that. I legit feel like, please
watch us go through this journey as we make mistakes,
so that you can learn how not to make the
same mistakes we had, you know what I'm saying. But
I would never say with a couple of goals, because
there's some things that I look at us now from
back then. I'm like, I would never do that, you

(01:22:44):
know what I'm saying. So maybe it's just the word.

Speaker 4 (01:22:46):
Part of the goal. I mean, we could debate this
all day long. You're my couple's goals letters, you know,
and just that those are the ways that I learned.
And some people need a need a guide. I actually
listened to a podcast where a guy somebody was like,
you've changed so much, Like how did you do it?

(01:23:06):
He's like, I can't take any credit. I needed a therapist.
I'm not the kind of person who does well with
self help. I need a guide, So they have to
first decide that are they going to look at these
knots together and engage in that slow, methodical process and
then enlist helps in the self help way, or are
they just going to go and find the right therapist,
which is a job all of them.

Speaker 2 (01:23:28):
It's like a dating courting process. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
All right, Well, good luck to you assists. I'm hoping
that they can if they both are so inclined to
want to work through this scene. It's only one year
in married.

Speaker 3 (01:23:43):
Does that mean like you could leave now if you
want it.

Speaker 4 (01:23:49):
I mean you were only married for a year period.

Speaker 2 (01:23:52):
Now. We're always going to err on the side of
like we hope people can stay together and be in
love and work it out, but we're also very realistic
and knowing like sometimes things just don't walk.

Speaker 4 (01:24:01):
Out what we're saying.

Speaker 3 (01:24:02):
The mole analogy was perfect.

Speaker 1 (01:24:04):
These moles look exactly the same, but their brains and
everything is a completely different And if we expect all
moles to act like the way they look, we're gonna
have problems. And I think it's the same thing for people.
You can't force marriage or monogamy or what's your ideas
of monogamy and marriage look like on everyone. They have
to figure that out.

Speaker 2 (01:24:23):
So that's and be honest with each other, like you know, like.

Speaker 3 (01:24:26):
That was a clip atle bit cooked a little bit,
but also.

Speaker 2 (01:24:32):
Being honest, like if you know that you're just not
cut out for monogamy, if you know that you want
to be with multiple people, just be honest about the
way you feel like marriage is not for everyone.

Speaker 4 (01:24:41):
And that's okay. They've ever had that conversation, Yes, that's
what that seems. Start there, Start there, have the conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:24:50):
There you go.

Speaker 2 (01:24:50):
All right, y'all, if you want to be featured as
one of our listener letters, be sure to write into
the listener books.

Speaker 4 (01:24:59):
One The thing is in their defense.

Speaker 2 (01:25:01):
Sometimes we get like a paragraph and we're like, we
have no context. We don't know how to give our
two cents because you have not given us all the
tools to be successful. So we do ask for like,
give us some context, so you know, three cards worth is.

Speaker 1 (01:25:17):
I guess you know we have to start asking people
minimum not just for context.

Speaker 3 (01:25:20):
From your side.

Speaker 1 (01:25:21):
I wish people rolled in together because sometimes we get
we get stories from guys and girls and we can
read through the lines and be like you wrote this
by yourself. We don't know the other person's side of
the story, and this sounds crazy, right, that's.

Speaker 4 (01:25:33):
The gift of the two of you two because your
interpretation of this was so different than mine and maybe yours.
Maybe we were closer, Oh yeah yeah, and then you
just took it. I was just like, oh, we're playing
badminton pickleball.

Speaker 3 (01:25:45):
Well, no, one thing I like to do is I
like to play Devil's advocate.

Speaker 4 (01:25:48):
Yes, because I love that the idea or concept of
you guys both getting to get both perspectives and then
give that I learned from you and that Oh that's good.

Speaker 2 (01:25:57):
No, all right, we'll pick that up too, y'all, and
right into us and Dead Advice at gmail dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:26:02):
That's D E A D A S S A D
V I C E at gmail dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:26:07):
All right, Shannon, know it's been five years, but you know,
we typically wrap up the conversations with a moment of
truth and that's pretty much your your takeaway. The culmination
of the conversation today, which was very very deep, and
it was had.

Speaker 4 (01:26:21):
Breath and it was long and it was wide and
all that stuff. That's what she said.

Speaker 2 (01:26:25):
But what is something that you can leave our listeners
with in a nutshell, Oh, we're just having all the nutshell.

Speaker 4 (01:26:36):
All that today.

Speaker 2 (01:26:37):
What is it that you can tell our listeners that
they can take away from this episode, any piece of advice.

Speaker 4 (01:26:41):
I feel like the point of this episode was really
to talk about the unconditional positive regard. Right, just having
a glowing mentality towards your partner. But that doesn't mean
that you don't hold your partner accountable. Both things can
be true, right, somebody can be wonderful and why and
also have a lot of room for growth that would

(01:27:02):
be mutually beneficial. So I think that the formula for
that is that respect and reject Like, I respect, I understand,
I acknowledge, I affirm why you are, how you are
and where you're at right now, and I reject that
that this is all that there is. I think that together,
through partnership, I think that through individual exploration, we can

(01:27:24):
find ourselves at a different reality that maybe is more
aligned with what both of us ultimately desire.

Speaker 3 (01:27:30):
You cook that drop.

Speaker 4 (01:27:32):
When you started swirling, I was like that, and that
means that it comes out a lot of like black
women on podcasts, And then they had to come up
with all these ways of being, like when you cook,
that's when you can feed. And I was like, when
I start to feel like, oh my god, stick the
landing you that it was a great high note to

(01:27:57):
leave it on. We leave it leading to shan.

Speaker 1 (01:27:58):
Today was about the positive regard. That's literally what mine
was about. So I got nothing to add to that.

Speaker 2 (01:28:05):
And mine is about the exploration, like the journey, the
process of you know, figuring each other out and pouring
into each other and seeing what you like and you
don't like, and having the continued conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:28:17):
I will just add this, it's breath like.

Speaker 1 (01:28:20):
It's a fresh of breath air because there's so many Yeah,
it was a breath of fresh air that so many
people say with podcasts or people claim to be experts,
they're only claiming one thing. Here we have a young
lady who's married, has two young daughters sitting here, my wife,
and we're talking about accountability but also positive regard. Because

(01:28:41):
people like to be combative when it comes to sex,
we were able to have a conversation about sex, not
be combative, disagree about a listener letter, not be combative.

Speaker 3 (01:28:50):
It's just a breath of fresh air.

Speaker 1 (01:28:51):
For me to have these conversations in a space where
I can speak my piece as a man, but also listen.

Speaker 2 (01:28:56):
And learn, and for me feel vulnerable enough to feel
like I'm safe if you know, my husband on one
side and Shan on the other, to create a safe
space for me to like open up about this.

Speaker 4 (01:29:06):
I feel so Yeah. One thing we're gonna be all
is dead ass. You know, you may have a couple of.

Speaker 2 (01:29:10):
Tears, but we're gonna be honest about how we feel.
And we love that we have this safe space that
we've created. And Shan, thank you so so I think
we can have her on every season. It's like, yeah, again,
here we are because there's a lot of things that
always have to be unpacked.

Speaker 1 (01:29:28):
Remember there were two seasons we didn't talk about sex,
and people asked there was no sex episode this year.
You're right because people continue to want to see the journey.
They want to see like how are they doing? So
Chang you the best, y'all.

Speaker 4 (01:29:39):
Well, you know what, take it away.

Speaker 2 (01:29:40):
Don't follow us for that, you can follow Shan. Yes,
we can follow Shan. Thank you, giving you all the
flowers and everything going it all, giving you a little
lap dance, everything all at the same time because I'm
just so incredibly happy. She's ready. She's ready for them,
my girl, So tell everyone we're they can follow you

(01:30:01):
to be educated about all things sham.

Speaker 4 (01:30:05):
It depends when this is coming out, but I've just
been rebuilding. I'm turning forty next year.

Speaker 3 (01:30:09):
Guys, welcome today. I can't wait.

Speaker 4 (01:30:12):
And it just created such an identity crisis this year
that I didn't know it was that until I really
assessed it. So I was like, I work out to
be a different Yeah, it was just now really assessing.
I'm just thinking about the next decade of my life.
So I've actually been restructuring my whole brand. So in
February it'll be Lovers by Shan dot Com. Before that,

(01:30:33):
I guess it'll be Instagram or you know, but I
think the stay tuned for February. That's when I'm really excited,
you know, launching everything that I'm really passionate about in
a way that feels just so on brand for not
just me, but the potential me that I'm growing into.

Speaker 3 (01:30:47):
Well, let us know.

Speaker 1 (01:30:47):
We'll do a follow up episode with the new branding
and anything, because girl, I will tell you, and I
will tell y'all.

Speaker 3 (01:30:53):
Is that your savings that I have learned has helped
me in the bedroom.

Speaker 4 (01:30:57):
I can attest that you.

Speaker 1 (01:31:00):
Literally really be wanting to hug you because we'll do
stuff and she'll be like, Shell be like, and I'll
be like, Shan.

Speaker 4 (01:31:07):
You're literally a household.

Speaker 1 (01:31:09):
I told her about specifically to go in and go up.
I learned about going in and going up, like, yo,
I'm telling y'all have no idea. I've warned so much
about the woman's body. But she'd be like, oh, and
I'd be like.

Speaker 4 (01:31:19):
Yeah, I learned this. Give Shan her props for him
stretching more now too. He's like, it's the hip flexures.
The flexibility can.

Speaker 2 (01:31:27):
Get me to get into positions that I meditate stress.

Speaker 4 (01:31:31):
So in the forties we're continuing.

Speaker 1 (01:31:34):
Absolutely, girl, girl, I'm gonna give you a big hug yo, like,
because I just feel I feel like I'm doing my
husbandly duties. When you can take care of a woman
that you're asking y'all need you to have sex four
or five times a week.

Speaker 3 (01:31:47):
I want to know why I'm doing my part.

Speaker 1 (01:31:49):
So now that I know that I'm doing my part, y'all,
I really want to give you a hug like I
feel I feel like y'a like we.

Speaker 3 (01:31:55):
Can podcast like I love it.

Speaker 4 (01:31:59):
We're jumping off the y'all to give us in real.

Speaker 2 (01:32:01):
Time you the best, Yes, you the best, and then
to round out the formalities. Be sure to find us
on Patreon, y'all to see exclusive dead Ass podcast video content.
You can find us on social media Kadeen I am and.

Speaker 1 (01:32:19):
I am Devo, and if you're listening on Apple Podcasts,
be sure to rate, review and subscribe, and also pick
up your copy if we over meet the counter intuitive
approach to getting everything you want out of your relationship.

Speaker 4 (01:32:29):
And games of desire. Don't forget that I love that subtitle.

Speaker 2 (01:32:34):
It's still there. It's still there on a pop in.
Those two books should be on your shelf for sure.
All right, y'all, dead Ass see you next time.

Speaker 1 (01:32:43):
Dead Ass Got dead Ass is a production of iHeartMedia
podcast Network and it's produced by Donor, Opinia and Triple
Follow the podcast on social media at dead Ass the
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