August 29, 2024 • 51 mins
Author Jodi Picoult joins Chelsea this week to talk about being relegated to ‘women’s fiction’, why she thinks the person who wrote Shakespeare’s plays was actually a woman, what’s changed and what’s stayed the same for women over the last 400 years. Then: A twenty-something wonders how to tell her new beau about her chaotic family life. A soon-to-be empty-nester dreams of the seaside. And a flight attendant has had it with being poked and prodded.
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Buy Jodi’s new book, By Any Other Name
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Need some advice from Chelsea? Email us at DearChelseaPodcast@gmail.com
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Executive Producer Catherine Law
Edited & Engineered by Brad Dickert
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi Catherine, Hi Chelsea.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
You're in New York. I am.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm in New York City. I got here.
Speaker 3 (00:05):
I flew from San Francisco this morning. I had a
great dinner last night. Oh what's that restaurant called in
San Francisco, Nopa?
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Oh it was so good. If you're in San Francisco,
you got to go there. Anyway.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
I had dinner with my nephew. Oh, he's not my nephew,
he's my cousin. I don't know what any one's relation
to me is my doctor cousin Ted, who I tried
to get a prescription from, and then his partner, and
then my niece, she's leaving for a semester abroad, and
my sister and Doug. I had on the I had
on the road. Doug and I went wine tasting. We
went to Napa. I had a show in Saratoga. Then
(00:39):
he and I went to San Francisco. We went to
Point Reyis.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Oh, he lovely.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
We went to the beach in San Francisco. There's a
huge doggy beach and we went there on Saturday, and
Doug humiliated me. No, he yeah, yeah, I couldn't even
pretend I knew him. It was so humiliating. He had
the zoomies for close to like forty five minutes. I
thought he was going to have a heart attack. And
me trying to call my dog when he doesn't come
is so embarrassing and humiliating at a dog park, especially
(01:06):
when everyone's off leash, because everyone's like, well, then you
shouldn't be here, and it's like, well, then fine, that's
not my dog. So I just walked in a different
direction hoping he'd follow.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I mean, he's screaming, Doug Come, Doug Come, in front
of all these other beach goers.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
It's just humiliating.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
It's like, especially with no response, and I have like treats,
I'm trying to bribe him with treats. But other than that,
I have to say he was fucking awesome because he
has like he's a little bipolar. He goes into a
restaurant immediately and lies down and goes to sleep. As
soon as we're sitting at a restaurant, I was like,
that's so awesome. He doesn't beg for food.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
It's perfect.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Yeah, And then when you get him on the beach
and he's got this big personality there, So I mean,
I was pretty pleased with him.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
I brought him on stage at one of my shows
at the Saratoga Mountain Winery.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Oh, which reminds me of my Vegas residency starts this Saturday.
Coming to Vegas nine September first, is my very first
Vegas residence date. So I will be there with bells
on everybody. I hope I see you there, excellent. Our
guest today is the number one New York Times bestselling
author of twenty nine novels, including Mad Honey, My Sister's Keeper,
(02:13):
and her newest book, which you guys are gonna love
By any Other Name, Please welcome Jody Pico.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Hi, Jody, Hello, how.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Are you great?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Congratulations on your latest book, which is called by any
other Name. So let's talk about the subject matter in
this book, because it's fascinating and a lot of what
are they called Bardologists?
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Is that what that they called? I think I saw a.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Word of that once, Right, Shakespeare lovers, this has been
a very heavy debate that's been going on for a
very long time, and I fucking love it. I love
it that Shakespeare wasn't necessarily we don't have enough proof
to know that Shakespeare was responsible for writing all of
what Shakespeare wrote. And I'm using quotation marks because a
(02:58):
lot of the experiences which you cover in this book
this is like, how would you describe it?
Speaker 1 (03:02):
It's I mean, it's a novel.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
It's definitely a novel. Yeah. To me.
Speaker 5 (03:06):
It's a book about how women have been written out
of history by the men who were writing history, About
how women's voices have been silenced and are still being
silenced today. Takes place half in Elizabethan, England and half
in the modern world, and it's the story of two women.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
One is in fifteen eighty one.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
It's Amelia Bassano, who's a real life historical figure, and
she is a female playwright who can't get her stuff
in front of the public because she's a female playwright,
and she winds up paying a man for the use
of his name, and that man is William Shakespeare. And
then in twenty twenty four, it's the story of her descendant,
a woman named Melina Green, who's written a play about
her ancestor, Emilia, and is trying to get it to Broadway,
(03:46):
but in a very male dominated theater world that is
not happening, and she too has to decide whether she'll
write herself out of history in order to see her
work up on the stage.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
And to me, it's a little bit of everything.
Speaker 5 (03:57):
It is a page turner, it is a historical it's
the spiciest thing I've ever written. It is also the
timeliest thing I've ever written, because you know, women are
still fighting to be heard today and we're living in
a time when there's a small group of people who
are making decisions about what the rest of us should
be reading and who gets to write those stories.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Yes, I mean it's not only timely, this would be
timely at any point during history, because we're talking about
a five century span of time where we're still up
against the same barriers of entry as women.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
So I heard this quote yesterday. It was interesting. What
was it.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I was listening to a podcast and it says you
can go decades without anything changing, and then in a
week it can feel like decades have changed. Like when
Kamala gets elected in November, that will be that kind
of feeling like we've been trying so hard, so hard,
so hard, and then it happens like this right in
the book. So, Amelia Basano is a real life person,
So how does that work when you're writing that, because
(04:56):
how can you write about some characters that are real
and some that are fictionalized.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
So we know certain things about the real Amelia Bassano's life.
Most of them come from this diary of this hack
doctor slash astrologer that she went.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
To when she had also.
Speaker 5 (05:14):
And so this guy, his name was Simon Foreman. He
basically spent all his time trying to sleep with her,
which she also documented, by the way, and she rejected him.
But it tells us that she was Italian, that her
family came over from Italy because they were super talented musicians,
and Henry the eighth brought them over to be the
recorder consort to the king, and then they began working
(05:35):
for Queen Elizabeth. First, we know that she was Jewish,
and like the rest of her family, she had to
hide her religion. We know that when she was seven
and her dad died, she was given as award to
a countess who was really really atypical and gave her
this incredible classical education and a legal education, which girls,
especially not noble girls, were never given. And then when
(05:57):
Amelia was twelve, this woman got remarried and so Amelia
was kind of like lost for a little bit, and
for a summer she lived with the woman's brother, who
was a baron who happened to be the ambassador to
Denmark when he did a diplomatic visit to the King
and Queen. The next year, she was given as a
courtesan to the Lord Chamberlain of England, and he was
in charge of all theater. He was fifty six, she
(06:19):
was thirteen.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
What a beautiful coupling.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
It's lovely, isn't it.
Speaker 5 (06:23):
She would have met all the players in the theater industry,
because every play crossed his desk for censorship, so she
would have met the playwrights, she would have met the actors,
she would have met the producers, the theater owners, all
those people for the ten years she was with him.
Then she gets pregnant, so she's twenty three years old.
She cannot be a pregnant mistress when he's already married,
so he marries her off to her wastrel of a
(06:45):
cousin who winds up blowing through all the money that
he gives her to be comfortable.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
And she's now twenty three years old.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
She's got a husband she hates, she has a kid
she has to support, and she has no idea how
to do that, and then we don't know anything about
Amelia for years, for decades, until sixteen eleven, when she's
in her late forties, and suddenly she is the first
woman to publish a book of poetry in England, which
in and of itself is a reason you should know
her name right. But you know, there's this time period
(07:14):
between the two, like decades. People don't show up in
their mid forties and publish a book of poetry like
you know, especially when women weren't doing that, which tells
me she was writing before that, she just may not
have been using her name. And in terms of Shakespeare.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
You know same thing.
Speaker 5 (07:29):
We know a lot of facts about Shakespeare. We know
that he was a businessman, a producer. We know he
was an actor. We know that he evaded taxes twice.
We know that he had multiple restraining orders from his
colleagues that he worked with. We know that when there
was a famine he hoarded grain and he jacked up
the price for all his neighbors. He was a lovely individual.
(07:52):
He also never left the country. He was not educated
at a university. He was self educated. But when he
died he didn't own a single book. He didn't bequeath
a book to anybody when he died. He was not
buried in Poet's Corner at Westminster like all the other writers,
even many you've never heard of who were in this
famous when he died, not a single other playwright said
(08:12):
anything about the loss of such a great talent, although
by far he was the best known quote playwright of
the time, you know. So what we know about him
legally and historically is that he was a businessman, not
that he was a writer. There is no proof that
he wrote anything with his name attached to it. And
it's my belief that people used his name and paid
(08:33):
him for the use of it so he could make
a quick book, and they were the ones writing under
his name. And I think Amelia is one of several
people who was doing that.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Oh interesting, Okay, but here's my question.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
If that's all true, right, and he wasn't credited as
being a writer, even if other people were using his name,
he would still have been recognized when he died as
a writer because those plays were all produced under his
name as written by Shakespeare in real time.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
Unless it was kind of like an inside joke in
the theater world.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Like an open secret, which I actually think it was.
Speaker 5 (09:06):
And there's there's actually a scene in the book where
I write about the First Folio, which everyone knows Shakespeare's
first folio, right. It's a collection of like thirty odd
plays that he allegedly wrote by himself while he had
two full time jobs. And he was also allegedly the
only playwright of the time who didn't collaborate.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
But okay, whatever, So he has this folio.
Speaker 5 (09:24):
After he's dead, all these plays are brought together, and
they're brought together by his nemesis, Ben Johnson. Okay, Ben
Johnson and Shakespeare hated each other, and Ben Johnson was
the first guy to take all of his plays and
instead of looking at them as kind of pulp fiction, saying,
oh no, this is the four of my work. So
all of a sudden, Shakespeare's dead and someone's collecting his plays,
(09:45):
and his nemesis, Ben Johnson is the one who writes
all of the preparatory material, saying you know, all these
lovely things about Shakespeare's as a playwright. But if you
read between the lines of what Ben Johnson actually wrote,
he said it has things like don't look on the
face of this playwright, look at his words, and there's
this whole conspiracy theory about the actual etching of Shakespeare
(10:08):
that everybody knows. It's the picture you're thinking of when
you think of Shakespeare that was on the first folio,
and how in it it looks like he has two
left arms in other words, no quote right arm right,
and there's a line around his face that looks like
he's wearing a mask. And there are all these people
who've used that to say, oh, see, that's proof that
(10:29):
that everyone was kind of in on this joke, and
Ben Johnson was leaving us a bunch of puzzles and clues,
thinking everyone in the future is going to figure this out.
But apparently we missed the punchline.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Well.
Speaker 6 (10:39):
And I can't remember if this was in the book
or in some an interview that I read with you,
but you had mentioned at some point that Shakespeare as
we know it, traditionally a lot of times it was hyphenated,
and that back then was known to be like this
is an imaginary character, or this is you know, sort
of a pseudonym.
Speaker 5 (10:55):
Yeah, that's also something that people bring up that's to
me more hypothetical, like, oh, it's not a real name.
I think what's more interesting is to look at the
fact that, like Shakespeare didn't speak all these other languages, right,
because he wasn't educated at university. He didn't go to
Cambridge or Oxford or whatever. But some of the source
material for the stories that he used for the plays
(11:16):
was only available in ancient Latin, Ancient Greek, Italian, French.
He didn't speak those languages, and it wasn't like people
were going around telling all these stories all the time,
and they weren't translated yet.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
So how does he know this stuff? You know?
Speaker 5 (11:31):
How does he know about where the Queen of Denmark's
closets are in her bedchamber when he's never been to Denmark?
How does he know that a certain type of tree
grows on the north bank of a river in Italy?
You know, to me, this is all really interesting. And
why especially this is a good one. Why does Shakespeare
all of a sudden stop writing historical plays about kings
(11:55):
and start writing Italian wedding comedies.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
That feels like an odd choice.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
It's all very valid.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
It's also fascinating, you know, because I've only really heard
about all of that kind of conjecture about Shakespeare, but
I've never I mean, I would say your book is
the biggest dive I've taken into it because I'm not
a barnologist someone who is obsessed with Shakespeare and all
of that. And I don't even know the reference of
the first folio that you're making. That's how uneducated I
am on this topic. First, I need you to answer
(12:21):
the editorial question, how does one from an editorial standpoint,
combine historical real figures with fictional characters, like why are
the rules around that?
Speaker 1 (12:31):
As a writer, well, I.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
Mean I write fiction, so there are no rules, which
is holy. You have it much harder because you're writing nonfiction.
But for me, I can do anything that I want, and.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
So even when you're using a real life person, you
can say that they absolutely.
Speaker 6 (12:44):
Oh she's been that a while Amelia was home.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
Yeah, I've done.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
If there's a statute of limitations.
Speaker 5 (12:49):
You should also know, Chelsea, I've never written about you,
so you can sleep tonight.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
But don't worry. I've done enough of that.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
I made sure that when I finished the book, I
the actual references, the actual truth, and the places that
I departed from the truth, because I did want people
to know what was real and what was was not real.
I think it's really important too to say that even
if you haven't been a Shakespeare scholar, I'm going to
give you enough knowledge to get through this book and
(13:17):
know what you need to know. You don't need to
come into this having read any of Shakespeare's plays.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Really, no, you don't.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
You don't.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
I speak from experience. This is a very juicy book.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I love it, and I love the toggling back and
forth from the present day to a different time, you know.
I love like having a period piece setting. And then
these two characters, these two main protagonists that are mimicking
each other in their lives in a way. And I
do want to talk about this theme of the book
because this really hit me hard, probably because I'm always
paranoida just about ending up.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Like you know, on the street or something.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
I mean, the contrast from her life of getting being
this guy's mistress and treating her with respect and adjuration.
This man truly adored her, and the way that this
is written and she, you know, she gets carted off
and she's sold to some guy. She doesn't know where
she's going, and she ends up in one of probably
the best circumstances short of actually falling in love with
(14:08):
your captor. You know, this guy allowed her to read
his plays, This guy who ran all the theaters in London,
he allowed her to read her plays. He loved hearing
her poetry. He wanted her to flourish, and he admired her,
and she had a beautiful life with him until the
I don't want to give anything away in this book,
but until her circumstances change, and then there's a shift
(14:29):
that is a really fucking hard pill to swallow. Yeah,
as a reader, it was so painful to even read.
You know, what her next situation entailed and where she
went and then that dynamic, and it made me think
about as a writer, when you're writing, especially as someone
who's written as many books as you have, what is
the methodology there? Like how do you think about those
(14:52):
turns of events? Like do you want to make them
as drastically different as like the contrast so stark?
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Is that your intention?
Speaker 5 (15:00):
I think that the pitfall I didn't want to hit
in this book because Amelia does suffer so many tragic
moments in her life. I didn't want you to be like,
oh my god, not again, you know, Like I didn't
want it to feel overwhelming, and part of being able
to combat that comes again from that diary from that
astrologer doctor. You know, when she talked about her life
with the Lord Chamberlain, with this guy who is so
(15:23):
wealthy and who was the theater head of all of England.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Basically she was so.
Speaker 5 (15:28):
Proud of what she achieved. Then she talks about how
all kinds of men would give her jewels and would
look at her and noticed what she looked like. And
you could tell that even though she wound up in
a very poor, different circumstance than she was for those
ten years, she was like, hey, I was someone. Don't
forget if I was someone. And it was hearing that
(15:48):
fire in her that made me want to create her
as you know, really a spitfire, someone who keeps on
getting up every time she's knocked down. Interestingly, you talk
about how kind the Lord Chamberlain was to her. We
don't know anything about that relationship. We know that she
from what she says in these diaries that are written down,
that he kept her well and that she seemed to
be comfortable with him, but we don't know anything else
(16:11):
about it. And in my opinion, you know, I was
thinking Okay, here's someone who is thirteen years old winds
up in this you know, artificial relationship with a fifty
six year old man where she's literally being groomed to
be his court is in. And I didn't want again
there to be a terrible time for Amelia during those
ten years, because it seemed like she enjoyed it, And
I thought, I don't really see her falling head over
(16:33):
heels with this guy, but I do see her finding
a friendship there. And you know, that was why I
chose to characterize and write Lord Hunston the Lord Chamberlain
the way that I did. So sometimes it means taking
a clue out of history and just sort of spinning
it and extrapolating it to create the character around it.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
I mean, what a luxury are you? Just like, take
what you like and discard what you don't. You know that?
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Yeah, I mean that is the definition and essence of
being a writer.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
Okay, but wait, can I tell you the freakiest thing
that happened to me when I was writing this book
one of them way is that I wanted to combat
again all the tragedy in Amelia's life was I thought
this woman deserved a little happiness, and so I wanted
to give her a love affair with a man she
truly loved. And there's this historical fact when Amelia's in
her sixties, she goes to court. She represents herself in court,
which is crazy, and she's fighting her brother in law
(17:22):
after her husband's death. She was basically supposed to get
money from a patent that hewned, and her brother in
law stole it all. At the end of this trial,
out of nowhere, the Earl of Southampton comes swaning into
the court room and he goes, hey, this isn't my court,
but if it was, I'd find in favor of her. Now,
this would never happen. You would just not see a
noble intervene in some commoner's life, right, And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa,
(17:46):
why did this guy come out of nowhere to talk
to Amelia? And then I realized, you know, during those
ten years that she was living with the Lord Chamberlain,
court was a pretty small group of courtiers and ladies nobles.
She would have known Southampton, and he was about three
and a half years younger than she was. He was
considered to be quite a hotty of the time. So
I'm like, great, I'm going to have them get it on.
(18:07):
So I'm writing all this great Elizabethan six, you know,
and I was really enjoying the relationship I created for them,
which was like this absolute doomed love affair, because there
was no world in which the Earl of Southampton was
ever going to wind up, you know, completely married to
some commoner like Amelia. Anyway, I write the whole thing.
I finished the book and I go to the Victorian
(18:29):
Albert Museum in England because I've been invited to hold
and see the miniature of Amelia that exists. So I
go to the archives. The archives take it out. I'm
holding her in my hands, which was just amazing, but
my eye keeps getting drawn to the box that had
all these miniatures in it, and the one that was
right next to her, and it's a man with long,
(18:49):
curly red hair looked a lot like mine. And I
just kept staring at it, and I said to the archive,
is who is that? And they said, oh, well, we
don't know. That's an unknown man. And I said, can
you tell me what was painted? So they look it
up and it's about the exact same time as the
Amelia miniature, and I pull up on my phone an
accredited painting of the Earl of Southampton which looks exactly
(19:10):
like that, and I said, I think maybe it's him,
and they start looking at it and they realize we
do a deep dive. The miniature that I've pulled up
was painted four years later by the same artist. Even
more interestingly, in that unknown man miniature, the man is
on a black background instead of a traditional blue.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
His hand is.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
Covering his heart, and it's painted on the three of
hearts a playing card, which in early you know Elizabethan
tarot called cardamancy, kind of signified a soulmate, someone you
love desperately but would never wind up with. All of
those things would have been the decision of the person
sitting for the portrait.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
And after doing deep.
Speaker 5 (19:50):
Research, the archivists have written me back and they're like, yeah,
we think this actually could be Southampton. So for the
past couple hundred years, the two of them have been
nestled next to each other in a.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
Box at the Victoria and Albert Museum.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
So maybe sometimes you write stuff and it becomes history.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
I don't know, this is turning into an episode of murder.
She wrote, what about her marrying her cousin. Is that
true too?
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Did that happen historically, Yeah, that is historically true.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
His name was Alfonse O. Lanner. He was a jerk.
Speaker 5 (20:19):
He did go through all of her money. He wanted
to be a night, so he kept on. He kept
trying multiple things, but he basically just blew through her cash.
And he did go off to try to be a knight.
He did wind up, ironically on a mission that Southampton
was leading, a naval mission on behalf of the queen.
He never became a knight, and she could not stand him.
(20:39):
I mean, that's all we know is that he did
not treat her well and she was not happy with him,
and she did not want the marriage.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
It's also fascinating, and you know what, it's so nice
to put it in modern terms, in the way that
you write and the way that this book is.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Like our listeners are.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
They love books and they love reading, and they're going
to love this book because it's I love that.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
You are learning through fiction.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
You know there is history involved here, and that you're
learning a lot about Shakespeare. That is for someone I
don't know a lot about Shakespeare, but I would like
to know more and this is just fascinating.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
It's just so well done.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
Oh, thank you. I think it's also for me.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
It was really important to have the modern element in
the book as well, to have the story of her
descendant trying to get this play mounted, you know, about
her ancestor, because as someone who for the past ten
years has been fortunate enough to work in the world
of theater, it's a very male dominated profession, and the
gatekeepers are a bunch of old white men who like
to see stories that reflect their own experience on a stage.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
And that's cyclical.
Speaker 5 (21:40):
You know, if you only see a certain kind of
story on a stage, you start to think maybe that's
the only one that should be worth telling.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
Everything that Melina is.
Speaker 5 (21:48):
Told about her fictional play by any other name, that
it's too emotional, that it's too small, that nobody would
want to see the story of a woman or of
a young girl coming of age. Those are all verbatim
things that I was told when I was working on
my first show.
Speaker 6 (22:04):
Jeez, And now you're adapting the book Thief, right, Yeah,
I am so exciting.
Speaker 5 (22:10):
Yeah, the same team that was working with me on
that show, the original show. Between the lines, we've adapted
the book Thief and it's going to the West End
in the fall of twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Oh, how cool is that? That's so awesome?
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Does what's your experience been like as a female author?
Speaker 1 (22:25):
How's that been?
Speaker 4 (22:26):
So?
Speaker 5 (22:26):
It's really interesting because I think the reason that by
any other name is so personal to me and really
is the book of my heart, is that I have
written so many controversial things, but I am rarely like
the characters.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
That I write.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
However, this is a book about what it means to
be a female storyteller, and that is exactly who I am.
And let me tell you what it is to be
a female storyteller. You sit down on a plane and
someone says what do you do? And you say, I'm
a writer. They look at you, see you're a woman
and they say, oh, do you write romance? And I
say no, do you write children's books?
Speaker 4 (22:59):
No?
Speaker 5 (22:59):
Oh, you must write women's fiction. Those are only the
three categories that women ever write. Apparently, what is even
women's fiction? Why is there no men's fiction? Why do
they just get to be fiction?
Speaker 4 (23:09):
You know?
Speaker 5 (23:09):
So there's still this sense that female writers are pigeonholed
in a way that men never are. If you get
a man who writes a really great book about family
and relationships, they are hailed as the great American author,
as if it is incongruous to have both a heart
and a penis right, And I don't think that's mutually exclusive,
(23:30):
you know, And I think that because of that, women
still feel pigeonholed as writers, even though there are plenty
of women on the bestseller list. The place where we
start to see gender discrimination in publishing is in reviews.
Fewer women are reviewed, and there are fewer female reviewers.
And at the very very top echelons of publishing, although
we see a lot of female editors, who runs these
(23:51):
publishing companies, it's usually a man.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yeah, yeah, Okay.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
On that, We're going to take a break and we
will be right back with Jodi Pico this week.
Speaker 6 (24:02):
Write in if you have questions about fitness. It could
be something specific you're dealing with in your fitness routine,
how to maintain your motivation or get started with a
new routine, or questions you have on a deeper level
about your physical health and fitness. Right into Dear Chelsea
Podcast at gmail dot com.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Okay, we're back with author Jody Pico. Okay, Jody, we're
gonna give out some advice today. Okay, are you ready?
Speaker 4 (24:25):
I love it?
Speaker 6 (24:26):
Okay, Well, Jody, I know you write about a lot
of controversial topics, so we have some controversial topics in
our advice portion today.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Great, but we're starting with a fun one.
Speaker 6 (24:36):
Sam is writing in and says, Dear Chelsea, I'm a
forty nine year old divorced woman, and I'm looking ahead
as my last kid is headed off to college in
a few years. Since my divorce, I've discovered how much
I need and crave alone time. I didn't get much
of it as a single parent, but as I've gotten older,
I love it. I consider myself an extroverted, introvert who
(24:59):
really needs solitude to recharge. I've often dreamt that once
my last kid leaves the nest, I would move out
somewhere on the East Coast, work remotely for my job,
and just enjoy peacefulness and calm in a small seaside town.
I've started opening up about this to friends and family,
who have mostly thought I was kidding, but deep down
I really want this to be the trajectory for this
next phase of life.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
I have a great network where I live.
Speaker 6 (25:22):
All my family is here.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
We're a tight group.
Speaker 6 (25:25):
I'm getting some pushback, in particular from my sister, who
cannot fathom that I would move away, saying that I
should be preparing myself to be the doting grandmother around
the corner. I guess I'm just looking for either some
validation that I'm not crazy or a two y four
across the head to knock some reality into me that
just because my kids leave the house doesn't mean I
should move away on some weird eat prey love journey.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
But should I Sam Wow?
Speaker 5 (25:49):
So I mean, I am a new grandma, and let
me tell you, it's the best thing ever. But I
don't live around the corner for my grandkids, so everything
is a journey for me if I see them, or
it's a journey for them to see me. And it
feels to me from the letter you just read that honestly,
she's already kind of made up her mind.
Speaker 4 (26:10):
She wants to go.
Speaker 5 (26:11):
And I don't think there's anything wrong with a mom
who has been in the wings watching her kids grow
up suddenly stepping out to be the focus of the limelight.
I think if she is at all worried about making
such a radical move. Go rent an airbnb for a
few months and rent out your own house and see
(26:31):
how it feels, and then if it works, then look
for something more permanent. But it sounds to me like
she's kind of already made up her mind.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Yeah, a lot of our callers are right in or
call in when they've made up their mind and they
need another person to go Yep, you're doing the right thing.
And I would say, as someone at the same exact
age who did not have to raise children and did
not have to put my time and energy into someone,
if you have a calling to spend time alone and
you have a desire to do that, that means you
have been deprived of that, and that you need to
(27:01):
go and run towards yourself with open arms. When we
have these feelings and it's just someone's advice that is
holding you back, that's not valid. Like if someone's telling
you no, you shouldn't be doing that. You have every
right to pursue your dreams and you haven't pursued them yet.
And so like Jody what you're saying, you're a forty
nine year old new grandmother, you've also pursued your dreams
(27:23):
during all of this, right, you've been able.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
To pursue who you want to be.
Speaker 5 (27:26):
I'm assuming yeah, absolutely, or I wouldn't be here today.
But I also had an amazing support network, and I
love that. You might think I'm forty nine, but I'm
fifty eight.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Right, Well, but I'm saying yes, okay, yeah, well we're
all forty nine for this purpose of this conversation. But yes,
I think as women, I can't stress enough or try
to help you enough to make the decision to do
what you want to do how you want to do it.
You are free now of responsibility. There's no one saying
(27:55):
having a grandchild or grand baby any minute, and then
that's a break when you get to it. And and
Jody's advice about getting something temporarily, it's great advice. I mean,
go try it out that way. If you find a
place and you're like, oh, I don't love this section
of town or this area, you can pick up and
move to another place and try it out there until
you find a place that does fit and that doesn't.
(28:17):
But like, your happiness is the most important thing, Like
you are in charge of it and no one else
is bringing you the happiness.
Speaker 6 (28:24):
Yeah, Like she's got a vision for her life. Follow
that vision, and of course when you do have grandkids,
they're gonna love coming and seeing Granny in the seaside down.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
M M right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
I also think I think that the saddest thing in
the world is when you get to the end of
your life and you think, what if I had done that?
You know, I mean, to me, that would be the
greatest loss. And it's okay to fail because that means
you were brave enough to try.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
But also, in your book, like this woman is not
given any choices along the way, she is not given
any choices. We live in a time where we have
the ability to make a choice for ourselves. In the
current time we are living in. You were allowed to
go and do that, so go fucking do it.
Speaker 6 (29:05):
Sam, Keep us posted when you find your airbnb on
the sea side, send us a picture, yes, Jony.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Before we move on, I have to tell you this.
Speaker 6 (29:13):
I one of my favorite memories of my father, whose
birthday it is today, not understanding what it's like to
live with a teenage girl. I was reading My Sister's
Keeper many years.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Ago when I was one of my favorite books of
all time.
Speaker 6 (29:24):
So good, gosh, thank you and one of the best
endings of all time. And I got to the end,
I turned the final page. I'm weeping, sobbing uncontrollably. My
dad hears this from the other room, comes out from
his office and is like, oh my god, what's going on?
Who died? Like a total panic, and I was like,
couldn't breathe. I'm just like pointing at the book like no,
(29:45):
it's just it's this. He was so pissed at me.
He's just like, I truly thought that someone in our
life had died, but he gave me that one of
those wonderful memories.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Because of that, I know, It's like, man, have never
cried reading a book? Ookay, I guess I know.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
It's like, what do.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
You notice, Jodie when you're on planes that you cry
more when you're reading a book.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
So it's funny because when I was adapting the book Thief,
I was writing part of the ending and I was
crying really really, really hard, and like the flight attendant
came over and wanted to make sure I was okay.
And my co librettist when he was doing his part
of the ending, the flight attendant came over and gave
him wine because we were just a wreck, you know.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
Writing this on the plane, so yeah, I cry all
the time when I write.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
There's something about being in the altitude that makes you
like I can watch something on a plane that I
would not cry at in real life, and I'll be crying.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
But anyway.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (30:39):
Well, our next question comes from Lynette. She is twenty seven.
She says, you're Chelsea. I would love to get your
opinion on how to ease my new amazing man into
my life, which includes my drug addicted dad and my
currently imprisoned fellon mother. I am my little sister's only
parent practically, she lives with me, and my new boyfriend
(30:59):
knows that I've been the only stable mother figure for her,
but he hasn't met her yet and really has no
idea how bad my parents' situation is. My fear is
that it will all be too much for him, as
it has been for other partners in the past. I'm
stressed and scared and don't know how to ease someone
into a life with someone like me with a broken family.
Any advice would be in the world to me. Thank
(31:19):
you so much, Lynette, and she's joining us here.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Hi, Lynette, Hilanette. Hello, Hi, Hi, this is Jodi Pico,
our special guest today.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
It's so nice to meet you.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
So what does your boyfriend know?
Speaker 2 (31:32):
So at this point, he knows about my mom being
in prison, and I've kind of shared how my dad
smokes weed and has always done that and you know,
back in the day, was like a little bit of
a drug dealer. But he doesn't know that he's homeless
and like really you know, a drug addict when it
comes to like meth. And we've had a lot of disputes,
(31:53):
me and him, my dad, and he still struggles with it,
and he's still really involved in like my little sister's life,
and you know, he comes around here and there, and
you know, holidays are coming up, so he's probably going
to meet him at some point. And sorry, and I
just don't know how to say it. I feel like
(32:14):
I'm withholding the truth almost from him really because when
he meets him, it's it's pretty obvious, like family has
expressed how he doesn't look well and like where is
he staying, And he'll swing by just to like, you know,
see my sister and me. But I really don't want
a relationship with my dad. I've you know. Like I said,
(32:34):
I've had spats with him, and I don't know, it's
just hard. My little sister says the same thing, like
he's just so obviously crazy and doesn't want to change,
doesn't want help, Like he hasn't had a job for
like over a year, and he talks about getting a
job and helping but doesn't really And the real thing
(32:55):
we need him to do is he has he's working
on my little sister's car. She's about to get license.
She really needs to have a car. And that's really
why we keep the contact, is to just get him
to at least do that, fix the car, bring it
for her like he promised he'd do. But at this point,
it's like you've had over a year to do it,
(33:15):
and here we are, you know, and this boyfriend's so great,
like he helps us so much, you know, and I
just feel so guilty that I haven't been totally honest.
And I'm afraid that the longer I wait, you know,
the more distrust he's going to build with me, you know.
And I don't think he's not going to accept it.
But it's just a hard conversation to have, you know,
(33:37):
Like even now talking about it is making me super anxious,
you know, because it's.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Oh my god, you've had to bear so much responsibility
for your family.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
You're such an amazing sister.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Thank you, Chelsea. You are you know, I think anybody
would do what I'm doing. But it's just hard because
he's such a gas lighter and he's just always got
an excuse for everything, for why he is the way
he is, And even like talking about the drugs, he's like, oh, well,
it's just crystal, and I'm like, it's not just crystals.
It's a hard drug. Like why don't you see how
(34:09):
it's broken our family, How you shouldn't how you should
look for help, Like, you know, my mom is in
prison from a lot of issues with alcohol. You know,
her second DUI, like her first one was child endangerment
for having a little sister in the car. And they're
just both so crazy and they make each other more
crazy and they enable each other. And it's like he's
(34:32):
always told me like I'm there for you, I'll always
be here for you, like whatever you need. But it's
like he really doesn't know just how bad it is.
You know, We've only been dating seriously for like a month,
so it.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Sounds like you really need to set some boundaries with
your parents. I don't know what the benefit is of
having your father remain in your life in the condition
he's in. I don't think that's going to have a
good impact on your little sister. And it's definitely just
adding a level of stress to your life. You already
have enough that you're dealing with, don't you agree, Jodie?
Speaker 4 (35:06):
Absolutely? Absolutely.
Speaker 5 (35:08):
And I also want to know, Lynnette, what was his response,
your boyfriend's response when you did tell him like that
your mom was in prison and stuff.
Speaker 4 (35:15):
What did you say to you?
Speaker 2 (35:16):
He was really supportive, you know, he he kind of
said the same thing, like I don't know how you're
managing everything that you are, Like, I'm here for you.
I can only imagine how hard it is. I've always
been really involved, like my parents have always been troubled,
and it's just pushed me away and wanted to push
me to work harder and be better. And it makes
me build that spite too, because it's like I've done
(35:37):
it all.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
For myself, And what about your little sister.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
She at one point was kind of like an empathizer,
and she like, my dad is the cool guy. And
he's always the lax parent, and so she would kind
of talk to me and be like, don't be so
hard on him, and like, well, he's trying. And now
that she's I think opened her eyes and a little
bit older and realizes just how bad it is, she
(36:00):
is getting kind of like a distaste for him, and
it just sucks that this is our dad. And I'm like,
I know, and you know, that's heartbreaking for her to
be so young, because I had it a little later,
like I was like in college when I really got
to open my eyes to it all. And here she is,
like sixteen barely and having to deal with that and
then also manage the fact that we have to balance
(36:22):
this relationship so he will just own up to what
he said he'll do for us, and it's hard. She's
so strong and so mature and she really does handle
it well, but I know it's heartbreaking for her.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
You know, Yeah, what do you think about setting some boundaries?
Can you set boundaries and tell him that he's not
welcome to come by the house. I don't think this
car fucking Matt Like, you can't depend on him for
fixing the car. He's unreliable and he's smoking crystal math.
It's a rap on him until he gets his shit
together as far as responsibilities go.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
I know, I know. And the thing is like, she
really does need it, and you know we could, I
could try and do without it, but we do need
the help. And he says it's a simple fix, so
it should happen sooner than later. But I've already started,
Like Chelsea, I was paying his phone bill for the
last year, so recently I told him. I was like, Dad,
I can't do this anymore, Like this added expense is
(37:14):
kind of crazy for me. Like if you can get
your own phone, that would really help, you know, Like,
and so he's like, I know, I'll do it, but
by the end of the month, like I'll just get
a Walmart phone and do it that way so you
don't have to pay for it. And I feel bad,
you know, all my aunts everybody tells me too, like
you need to stop paying his phone bill, like he's
not together.
Speaker 6 (37:31):
Yeah, And I think the types of boundaries that Chelsea
is talking about are things like I'll pay it to
the end of the month, and then at the end
of the month, you shut the phone off, you know,
whether or not he's gotten one for himself. You need
to be focusing on protecting yourself, your energy, and your sister.
And right now your dad is not a safe person
to be around either one of you. I think you're
(37:54):
right also about the car situation.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
I mean, if it's such an easy fix, someone else
can do it, you know what I mean. It's almost
like a having anything that you need from him is
not a good dynamic between somebody who is a drug addict.
You don't want to have anything from him, and you
don't want him to come by, like you have to
set a boundary before you even, you know, broach this
with your boyfriend. I would say, like, listen, the more honest,
(38:16):
the better. In every situation, I prefer honesty. I mean, yes,
it's a month long relationship, it's very new, it is
a lot of information, but you're so sweet and loving
like that. You don't have bad vibes. You're not trying
to pull the wool over someone's eyes. And I'm sure
he sees that in you, you know, And I think
you should be honest and be honest about why you've
(38:38):
kept it from him. And I wonder if maybe he'll
surprise you with some sort of ideas and solutions about
boundaries too, because you're raising your sister because your father
and mother can't do it, there's no reason you should be.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Helping them in any way. You already have enough to
deal with.
Speaker 6 (38:56):
Yeah, and right now I want you to focus on
building your support sys. So, whether that's like relying on
your aunties, cultivating this relationship with your boyfriend and with
your sister, reach out to people who are in your
circle already, who you know you can rely on and trust.
Work on cultivating your support network because your dad is
not part of it. He just can't be part of
(39:18):
it anymore.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
And setting a boundary with people like that is an
act of love. That doesn't mean you don't love him,
even if he says you don't love me, This is terrible.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
How you could you do this?
Speaker 3 (39:27):
You have to know coming from me, that that is
an act of love. That's an act of love on
behalf of your father and your sister and yourself. By
saying no, we don't want you around here in the
shape you're in. We don't want to see this anymore,
you know, And that's about our respecting yourself and your sister.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Yeah, you're right, it's what I need to do to
protect her and keep her, you know, on the right path,
and you know, push him to realize, like there's no excuse,
it is what it is, and you're right, I need
to establish a boundary.
Speaker 7 (40:00):
Really.
Speaker 5 (40:01):
I think also you've been such a role model for
your sister and if she's kind of at this waffling
stage where she is seeing do I have responsibility to
my dad or can I make that break? Seeing you
being able to set those hard boundaries I think is
going to be really helpful to her.
Speaker 4 (40:18):
Yeah, you're right, Thank you, that's so true.
Speaker 6 (40:20):
I want you to know too that you are not alone.
There are a lot of people who have gone through
similar situations. So I'm going to help you look for
like maybe an alan on which is for families of
people who have alcohol and drug addiction, or you know,
some kind of therapy in your area that will be
low cost or free and that you can go in
and keep building that support system.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Okay, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
And I also just before you go, like I really
want you to recognize what an incredible thing you've done
and like what are you are continuing to do? There
is so much value in what you've provided for your sister,
which is stability, love and comfort like there there is
no number you can put on that and the impact
you're having on her life and I'm sure the impact
(41:06):
on you she's having on your life.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
And just because.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Everybody would probably do that, does it mean that it's
without the value that you have brought to the situation.
And that alone is going to give you the ability
to move forward with your new boyfriend, to move forward
with new boundaries. For your father, you are her role model,
just like Jodie said, and so with every act moving forward,
(41:29):
and that includes being honest with your boyfriend, think of
your yourself, setting an example for your younger sister.
Speaker 4 (41:34):
Yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Okay, good luck with everything. Thank you so much for
calling you. Love you guys, Thank you bye, honey.
Speaker 6 (41:45):
Oh my god, I know, I know, such a sweetheart.
I do also think maybe Chelsea, we can do a
GoFundMe with the dear Chelsea listeners and like get that
sure fixed?
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah I would love Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do that.
Speaker 6 (41:57):
Yeah great, So we'll put that in the so you
guys can donate their sweetie puss, I know, I know.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Well, let's take a quick break.
Speaker 6 (42:06):
I've got one more caller who's also got a bit
of a sticky situation.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Okay, we'll take a break and we'll be right back.
And we're back with Jody Pico.
Speaker 6 (42:18):
We are back.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Well.
Speaker 6 (42:20):
Our last caller today is TJ and he is a
flight attendant. He says, Dear Chelsea, I'm a gay male
in my thirties and I've worked as a flight attendant
for a major US carrier going on seven years. For
the entire length of that career, I have been poked, prodded, touched, tapped, nudged,
and flicked. Over the last couple of years, I've become
(42:40):
more frustrated with people touching me to get my attention.
When I was more junior in my career, I would
just brush it off and keep it moving. These days,
I make it a point to let people know they
don't get to touch me.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Here's where things get quote touchy for me.
Speaker 6 (42:53):
Very recently, a grown woman slapped my ass as I
was bent over grabbing her something from the cart during
our beverage service in the main cabin. It was completely
embarrassing and triggering for me to have experienced this in
my place of work, and even worse.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
When I laid down the.
Speaker 6 (43:07):
Law with her, she said nothing, had no remorse, and
acted like I was in the wrong for telling her
not to make unwarranted sexual advances. I requested police meet
the flight, had her escorted off, filed a police report,
and requested to press charges. I have a sneaking suspicion
nothing will be done about this, as we don't have
much follow through with instances like these. I'm wondering if
(43:27):
I should take matters into my own hands and bring
my own legal counsel. As the unofficial spokesperson for flight attendants, Chelsea,
I'm wondering if you have any litigious insight for me.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
Best. TJ Hi, TJ Hi, Hi. This is Jody. This
is our special guest day.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Jody.
Speaker 4 (43:43):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
I'm so sorry that happened to you.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
It's like the women's movement is moving so quickly, it's
flashing before our eyes.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Now we're acting like men.
Speaker 7 (43:53):
I know the pendulum is swinging.
Speaker 4 (43:56):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
I mean this is really a personal question.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
I mean, how it feels like you really want your
voice to be heard, And if you were a woman
in this situation, I would say, you know, be indefatigable
in your desire and pursuit to have your voice heard.
So I guess I would say the same thing to you,
because it takes someone, it takes like a whistleblower to
get the party started. Like the fact that people still
(44:22):
think that they can touch flight attendants is a little
bit antiquated.
Speaker 7 (44:26):
Yeah, definitely. I mean it's interesting because I felt like
it wasn't being taken very.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Seriously in the moment.
Speaker 7 (44:33):
Right as I discussed with Catherine, I had looped the
pilots into what was going on, and their response was, oh, well,
we'll get a gate agent to meet the flight and
talk to the passenger. And I said, no, I want
police because if this was one of the female flight
attendants getting groped by a man, we would be landing
this fucking plane. So like it with the program.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Absolutely, was there alcohol involved?
Speaker 4 (44:59):
Was she drunk?
Speaker 7 (45:00):
So I keep people keep asking that question. And she
was kind of a weirdo, but she wasn't like, she
wasn't showing signs of intoxication like red eyes, sirt speech,
and you know, we're kind of look for those things.
In fact, she was ordering a drink from me, and
of course that didn't happen. It was odd, and just
for more context, as I was handing the drink over
(45:23):
is when she slapped me and I shot up and
so before I could even say anything, she looked at
me and said, sorry, I just couldn't help myself. And
that's when I just like went in for the kill.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Yeah, oh my god.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
It feels like the flight like flying and airplanes and
airplane announcements need a major fucking update, like between people
wearing flip flops or taking their shoes off and rubbing
their feet. There was somebody sent me a DM the
other day of somebody drying their underwear in front of.
Speaker 1 (45:51):
Their seat in first class.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
They had their underwear out and it was hanging on
some on their trade table like some hook above it
and drying.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
And I was like, oh, oh my god.
Speaker 3 (46:02):
We need an update in the aviation system of when
people board planes to understand that there are rules and
regulations and you're not allowed to physically touch a flight attendant.
So if you really have the energy to go after this,
I would say, fucking go for it and try and
change the system.
Speaker 5 (46:18):
You know.
Speaker 3 (46:19):
I mean this is because it's absolutely true women can
get away with that kind of behavior now that men
can't as easily. The behavior has to apply to all sexes.
So I would say, if you have the like you know,
if you have the resources and you want to go
after it, go after it. Otherwise, I mean, I think
you should go after it with the intention of actually
(46:40):
making the airlines acknowledge that this is an ongoing problem
and they need to address it when everybody is boarding
the flight, like they address all the other things. And
I've heard that, by the way, on planes, I've heard that,
especially during COVID, I've heard pilots say, do not get
upset with your flight attendant. She is not the one
making you wear a mask, you know. Like they had
all these preliminary announcements that were varying from airline to airline,
(47:03):
but they were addressing it, and that does need to
be a more permanent announcement.
Speaker 7 (47:07):
I mean, ever since this happened, I hop on the
inner phone before we even go on the aisle and
I say, as a reminder, take out your headphones when
you're speaking to us, and do not touch the flight
attendants like it's a petting zoo.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
It's insane, but perfect. Yeah, you're doing it already.
Speaker 4 (47:23):
Also, the other.
Speaker 5 (47:24):
Thing that I would recommend is if there's a way
to escalate this through your company, that's really important because
then it can become a company wide policy. But think
about other places that you can speak out and tell
your story, you know, So in terms of I don't
know if there is this is a great place, for example,
but there are other outlets like this media. There might
(47:45):
be someone who would be willing to do a local
story on it on the news or something like that.
That might be a really interesting place to spread the word,
which I think is is really important.
Speaker 3 (47:53):
Yeah, I feel like that aspect of things is more
paramount than theligigious aspect. You want to have to spread
awareness on every issue, you know, and sometimes when we
go after something legally, it's like it becomes such negative
energy that you're putting towards it. So I'm always looking
for an avenue not to do that.
Speaker 7 (48:11):
And I think that's the biggest problem I'm having with
this is I'm not like a litigious person by nature.
I'm not vindictive, and going after somebody on a civil
level for like a monetary value seems kind of icky.
But I'm like, is this a way for me to
turn that page. Is this something where I can see like, oh,
something has been done about this, this person has been punished.
Speaker 3 (48:34):
But listen, I think the spreading awareness is more important
than the punishing of this woman. Yeah, she learns her lesson,
She learned it. She's not going to do that again
most likely, you know what I mean, she got it.
You didn't react well to that, so I mean hopefully
she did. But I think what JODI's saying is right, Like,
you're sit telling the story here. Millions of people will
hear this and you're making the announcement yourself on your flights,
(48:56):
which is great, and keep doing that, you know what
I mean, because that if I heard that on a plane,
that's going.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
To make me go, oh my god, who touched too?
You know what happened here that we're being told that.
So and you should talk to other flight attendants about it.
And anytime you can tell the story, do it.
Speaker 6 (49:12):
And if you're a journalist or podcaster listening who wants
to dig more into the story, contact me and I
can put.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
You in touch with TJ.
Speaker 7 (49:18):
Yeah, gorgeous.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
All right, Well, thanks for calling in.
Speaker 7 (49:22):
And thank you for having me on.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
Thanks so much, TJ. Good luck with everything. I hope
I see you on a flight.
Speaker 4 (49:27):
I hope so too. Well, I'll waterboard you.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
With some vodka, okay, and then i'll smack you on
the ass. That'll be perfect. Okay. Bye, less and learned,
lesson learned, Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (49:39):
Okay, bye bye. Okay, Jody, we're going to wrap up
with you. First of all, what a great description of
your book. I want to say thank you for describing
your book in that way, because many authors have a
lot of trouble talking about their own books. So it's
very refreshing to see someone with such a great sense
of humor and so relatable giving us all this information
(50:00):
which may not be so relatable, but coming from the
filter of you makes it more so.
Speaker 4 (50:05):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (50:06):
Thank you for reading the book. I really appreciate it,
and I just hope that I hope people really take
it to heart and see that a lot's changed to
four hundred years, but a lot sure hasn't.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
Yeah. I think they will. I think they will, all right,
Thanks so much, Jodie, Take.
Speaker 4 (50:22):
Care, take care, bye bye.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (50:27):
So upcoming shows that I have you, guys, I will
be all over Maine, Charlotte, North Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina.
I'm coming to Texas. I'm coming to Saint Louis and
Kansas City, and then I will be in Las Vegas
performing at the Chelsea Theater inside the Cosmopolitan Hotel. My
first three dates in Vegas our September first, Labor Day weekend,
(50:49):
and then November two and November thirtieth.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
I'm coming to.
Speaker 3 (50:53):
Brooklyn, New York, at the King's Theater on November eighth,
and I have tickets on sale throughout the end of
the year in December, so if you're in a city
like Philadelphia or Bethlehem, or San Diego or New Orleans
or Omaha, check Chelseahandler dot com for tickets.
Speaker 6 (51:11):
Okay, if you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an
email at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and
be sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is
edited and engineered by Brad Dickert executive producer Catherine law
and be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler
dot com.
Hi Catherine, Hi Chelsea.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
You're in New York. I am.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm in New York City. I got here.
Speaker 3 (00:05):
I flew from San Francisco this morning. I had a
great dinner last night. Oh what's that restaurant called in
San Francisco, Nopa?
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Oh it was so good. If you're in San Francisco,
you got to go there. Anyway.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
I had dinner with my nephew. Oh, he's not my nephew,
he's my cousin. I don't know what any one's relation
to me is my doctor cousin Ted, who I tried
to get a prescription from, and then his partner, and
then my niece, she's leaving for a semester abroad, and
my sister and Doug. I had on the I had
on the road. Doug and I went wine tasting. We
went to Napa. I had a show in Saratoga. Then
(00:39):
he and I went to San Francisco. We went to
Point Reyis.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Oh, he lovely.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
We went to the beach in San Francisco. There's a
huge doggy beach and we went there on Saturday, and
Doug humiliated me. No, he yeah, yeah, I couldn't even
pretend I knew him. It was so humiliating. He had
the zoomies for close to like forty five minutes. I
thought he was going to have a heart attack. And
me trying to call my dog when he doesn't come
is so embarrassing and humiliating at a dog park, especially
(01:06):
when everyone's off leash, because everyone's like, well, then you
shouldn't be here, and it's like, well, then fine, that's
not my dog. So I just walked in a different
direction hoping he'd follow.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I mean, he's screaming, Doug Come, Doug Come, in front
of all these other beach goers.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
It's just humiliating.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
It's like, especially with no response, and I have like treats,
I'm trying to bribe him with treats. But other than that,
I have to say he was fucking awesome because he
has like he's a little bipolar. He goes into a
restaurant immediately and lies down and goes to sleep. As
soon as we're sitting at a restaurant, I was like,
that's so awesome. He doesn't beg for food.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
It's perfect.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Yeah, And then when you get him on the beach
and he's got this big personality there, So I mean,
I was pretty pleased with him.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
I brought him on stage at one of my shows
at the Saratoga Mountain Winery.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Oh, which reminds me of my Vegas residency starts this Saturday.
Coming to Vegas nine September first, is my very first
Vegas residence date. So I will be there with bells
on everybody. I hope I see you there, excellent. Our
guest today is the number one New York Times bestselling
author of twenty nine novels, including Mad Honey, My Sister's Keeper,
(02:13):
and her newest book, which you guys are gonna love
By any Other Name, Please welcome Jody Pico.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Hi, Jody, Hello, how.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Are you great?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Congratulations on your latest book, which is called by any
other Name. So let's talk about the subject matter in
this book, because it's fascinating and a lot of what
are they called Bardologists?
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Is that what that they called? I think I saw a.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Word of that once, Right, Shakespeare lovers, this has been
a very heavy debate that's been going on for a
very long time, and I fucking love it. I love
it that Shakespeare wasn't necessarily we don't have enough proof
to know that Shakespeare was responsible for writing all of
what Shakespeare wrote. And I'm using quotation marks because a
(02:58):
lot of the experiences which you cover in this book
this is like, how would you describe it?
Speaker 1 (03:02):
It's I mean, it's a novel.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
It's definitely a novel. Yeah. To me.
Speaker 5 (03:06):
It's a book about how women have been written out
of history by the men who were writing history, About
how women's voices have been silenced and are still being
silenced today. Takes place half in Elizabethan, England and half
in the modern world, and it's the story of two women.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
One is in fifteen eighty one.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
It's Amelia Bassano, who's a real life historical figure, and
she is a female playwright who can't get her stuff
in front of the public because she's a female playwright,
and she winds up paying a man for the use
of his name, and that man is William Shakespeare. And
then in twenty twenty four, it's the story of her descendant,
a woman named Melina Green, who's written a play about
her ancestor, Emilia, and is trying to get it to Broadway,
(03:46):
but in a very male dominated theater world that is
not happening, and she too has to decide whether she'll
write herself out of history in order to see her
work up on the stage.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
And to me, it's a little bit of everything.
Speaker 5 (03:57):
It is a page turner, it is a historical it's
the spiciest thing I've ever written. It is also the
timeliest thing I've ever written, because you know, women are
still fighting to be heard today and we're living in
a time when there's a small group of people who
are making decisions about what the rest of us should
be reading and who gets to write those stories.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Yes, I mean it's not only timely, this would be
timely at any point during history, because we're talking about
a five century span of time where we're still up
against the same barriers of entry as women.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
So I heard this quote yesterday. It was interesting. What
was it.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I was listening to a podcast and it says you
can go decades without anything changing, and then in a
week it can feel like decades have changed. Like when
Kamala gets elected in November, that will be that kind
of feeling like we've been trying so hard, so hard,
so hard, and then it happens like this right in
the book. So, Amelia Basano is a real life person,
So how does that work when you're writing that, because
(04:56):
how can you write about some characters that are real
and some that are fictionalized.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
So we know certain things about the real Amelia Bassano's life.
Most of them come from this diary of this hack
doctor slash astrologer that she went.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
To when she had also.
Speaker 5 (05:14):
And so this guy, his name was Simon Foreman. He
basically spent all his time trying to sleep with her,
which she also documented, by the way, and she rejected him.
But it tells us that she was Italian, that her
family came over from Italy because they were super talented musicians,
and Henry the eighth brought them over to be the
recorder consort to the king, and then they began working
(05:35):
for Queen Elizabeth. First, we know that she was Jewish,
and like the rest of her family, she had to
hide her religion. We know that when she was seven
and her dad died, she was given as award to
a countess who was really really atypical and gave her
this incredible classical education and a legal education, which girls,
especially not noble girls, were never given. And then when
(05:57):
Amelia was twelve, this woman got remarried and so Amelia
was kind of like lost for a little bit, and
for a summer she lived with the woman's brother, who
was a baron who happened to be the ambassador to
Denmark when he did a diplomatic visit to the King
and Queen. The next year, she was given as a
courtesan to the Lord Chamberlain of England, and he was
in charge of all theater. He was fifty six, she
(06:19):
was thirteen.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
What a beautiful coupling.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
It's lovely, isn't it.
Speaker 5 (06:23):
She would have met all the players in the theater industry,
because every play crossed his desk for censorship, so she
would have met the playwrights, she would have met the actors,
she would have met the producers, the theater owners, all
those people for the ten years she was with him.
Then she gets pregnant, so she's twenty three years old.
She cannot be a pregnant mistress when he's already married,
so he marries her off to her wastrel of a
(06:45):
cousin who winds up blowing through all the money that
he gives her to be comfortable.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
And she's now twenty three years old.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
She's got a husband she hates, she has a kid
she has to support, and she has no idea how
to do that, and then we don't know anything about
Amelia for years, for decades, until sixteen eleven, when she's
in her late forties, and suddenly she is the first
woman to publish a book of poetry in England, which
in and of itself is a reason you should know
her name right. But you know, there's this time period
(07:14):
between the two, like decades. People don't show up in
their mid forties and publish a book of poetry like
you know, especially when women weren't doing that, which tells
me she was writing before that, she just may not
have been using her name. And in terms of Shakespeare.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
You know same thing.
Speaker 5 (07:29):
We know a lot of facts about Shakespeare. We know
that he was a businessman, a producer. We know he
was an actor. We know that he evaded taxes twice.
We know that he had multiple restraining orders from his
colleagues that he worked with. We know that when there
was a famine he hoarded grain and he jacked up
the price for all his neighbors. He was a lovely individual.
(07:52):
He also never left the country. He was not educated
at a university. He was self educated. But when he
died he didn't own a single book. He didn't bequeath
a book to anybody when he died. He was not
buried in Poet's Corner at Westminster like all the other writers,
even many you've never heard of who were in this
famous when he died, not a single other playwright said
(08:12):
anything about the loss of such a great talent, although
by far he was the best known quote playwright of
the time, you know. So what we know about him
legally and historically is that he was a businessman, not
that he was a writer. There is no proof that
he wrote anything with his name attached to it. And
it's my belief that people used his name and paid
(08:33):
him for the use of it so he could make
a quick book, and they were the ones writing under
his name. And I think Amelia is one of several
people who was doing that.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Oh interesting, Okay, but here's my question.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
If that's all true, right, and he wasn't credited as
being a writer, even if other people were using his name,
he would still have been recognized when he died as
a writer because those plays were all produced under his
name as written by Shakespeare in real time.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
Unless it was kind of like an inside joke in
the theater world.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Like an open secret, which I actually think it was.
Speaker 5 (09:06):
And there's there's actually a scene in the book where
I write about the First Folio, which everyone knows Shakespeare's
first folio, right. It's a collection of like thirty odd
plays that he allegedly wrote by himself while he had
two full time jobs. And he was also allegedly the
only playwright of the time who didn't collaborate.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
But okay, whatever, So he has this folio.
Speaker 5 (09:24):
After he's dead, all these plays are brought together, and
they're brought together by his nemesis, Ben Johnson. Okay, Ben
Johnson and Shakespeare hated each other, and Ben Johnson was
the first guy to take all of his plays and
instead of looking at them as kind of pulp fiction, saying,
oh no, this is the four of my work. So
all of a sudden, Shakespeare's dead and someone's collecting his plays,
(09:45):
and his nemesis, Ben Johnson is the one who writes
all of the preparatory material, saying you know, all these
lovely things about Shakespeare's as a playwright. But if you
read between the lines of what Ben Johnson actually wrote,
he said it has things like don't look on the
face of this playwright, look at his words, and there's
this whole conspiracy theory about the actual etching of Shakespeare
(10:08):
that everybody knows. It's the picture you're thinking of when
you think of Shakespeare that was on the first folio,
and how in it it looks like he has two
left arms in other words, no quote right arm right,
and there's a line around his face that looks like
he's wearing a mask. And there are all these people
who've used that to say, oh, see, that's proof that
(10:29):
that everyone was kind of in on this joke, and
Ben Johnson was leaving us a bunch of puzzles and clues,
thinking everyone in the future is going to figure this out.
But apparently we missed the punchline.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Well.
Speaker 6 (10:39):
And I can't remember if this was in the book
or in some an interview that I read with you,
but you had mentioned at some point that Shakespeare as
we know it, traditionally a lot of times it was hyphenated,
and that back then was known to be like this
is an imaginary character, or this is you know, sort
of a pseudonym.
Speaker 5 (10:55):
Yeah, that's also something that people bring up that's to
me more hypothetical, like, oh, it's not a real name.
I think what's more interesting is to look at the
fact that, like Shakespeare didn't speak all these other languages, right,
because he wasn't educated at university. He didn't go to
Cambridge or Oxford or whatever. But some of the source
material for the stories that he used for the plays
(11:16):
was only available in ancient Latin, Ancient Greek, Italian, French.
He didn't speak those languages, and it wasn't like people
were going around telling all these stories all the time,
and they weren't translated yet.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
So how does he know this stuff? You know?
Speaker 5 (11:31):
How does he know about where the Queen of Denmark's
closets are in her bedchamber when he's never been to Denmark?
How does he know that a certain type of tree
grows on the north bank of a river in Italy?
You know, to me, this is all really interesting. And
why especially this is a good one. Why does Shakespeare
all of a sudden stop writing historical plays about kings
(11:55):
and start writing Italian wedding comedies.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
That feels like an odd choice.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
It's all very valid.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
It's also fascinating, you know, because I've only really heard
about all of that kind of conjecture about Shakespeare, but
I've never I mean, I would say your book is
the biggest dive I've taken into it because I'm not
a barnologist someone who is obsessed with Shakespeare and all
of that. And I don't even know the reference of
the first folio that you're making. That's how uneducated I
am on this topic. First, I need you to answer
(12:21):
the editorial question, how does one from an editorial standpoint,
combine historical real figures with fictional characters, like why are
the rules around that?
Speaker 1 (12:31):
As a writer, well, I.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
Mean I write fiction, so there are no rules, which
is holy. You have it much harder because you're writing nonfiction.
But for me, I can do anything that I want, and.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
So even when you're using a real life person, you
can say that they absolutely.
Speaker 6 (12:44):
Oh she's been that a while Amelia was home.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
Yeah, I've done.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
If there's a statute of limitations.
Speaker 5 (12:49):
You should also know, Chelsea, I've never written about you,
so you can sleep tonight.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
But don't worry. I've done enough of that.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
I made sure that when I finished the book, I
the actual references, the actual truth, and the places that
I departed from the truth, because I did want people
to know what was real and what was was not real.
I think it's really important too to say that even
if you haven't been a Shakespeare scholar, I'm going to
give you enough knowledge to get through this book and
(13:17):
know what you need to know. You don't need to
come into this having read any of Shakespeare's plays.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Really, no, you don't.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
You don't.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
I speak from experience. This is a very juicy book.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I love it, and I love the toggling back and
forth from the present day to a different time, you know.
I love like having a period piece setting. And then
these two characters, these two main protagonists that are mimicking
each other in their lives in a way. And I
do want to talk about this theme of the book
because this really hit me hard, probably because I'm always
paranoida just about ending up.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Like you know, on the street or something.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
I mean, the contrast from her life of getting being
this guy's mistress and treating her with respect and adjuration.
This man truly adored her, and the way that this
is written and she, you know, she gets carted off
and she's sold to some guy. She doesn't know where
she's going, and she ends up in one of probably
the best circumstances short of actually falling in love with
(14:08):
your captor. You know, this guy allowed her to read
his plays, This guy who ran all the theaters in London,
he allowed her to read her plays. He loved hearing
her poetry. He wanted her to flourish, and he admired her,
and she had a beautiful life with him until the
I don't want to give anything away in this book,
but until her circumstances change, and then there's a shift
(14:29):
that is a really fucking hard pill to swallow. Yeah,
as a reader, it was so painful to even read.
You know, what her next situation entailed and where she
went and then that dynamic, and it made me think
about as a writer, when you're writing, especially as someone
who's written as many books as you have, what is
the methodology there? Like how do you think about those
(14:52):
turns of events? Like do you want to make them
as drastically different as like the contrast so stark?
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Is that your intention?
Speaker 5 (15:00):
I think that the pitfall I didn't want to hit
in this book because Amelia does suffer so many tragic
moments in her life. I didn't want you to be like,
oh my god, not again, you know, Like I didn't
want it to feel overwhelming, and part of being able
to combat that comes again from that diary from that
astrologer doctor. You know, when she talked about her life
with the Lord Chamberlain, with this guy who is so
(15:23):
wealthy and who was the theater head of all of England.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Basically she was so.
Speaker 5 (15:28):
Proud of what she achieved. Then she talks about how
all kinds of men would give her jewels and would
look at her and noticed what she looked like. And
you could tell that even though she wound up in
a very poor, different circumstance than she was for those
ten years, she was like, hey, I was someone. Don't
forget if I was someone. And it was hearing that
(15:48):
fire in her that made me want to create her
as you know, really a spitfire, someone who keeps on
getting up every time she's knocked down. Interestingly, you talk
about how kind the Lord Chamberlain was to her. We
don't know anything about that relationship. We know that she
from what she says in these diaries that are written down,
that he kept her well and that she seemed to
be comfortable with him, but we don't know anything else
(16:11):
about it. And in my opinion, you know, I was
thinking Okay, here's someone who is thirteen years old winds
up in this you know, artificial relationship with a fifty
six year old man where she's literally being groomed to
be his court is in. And I didn't want again
there to be a terrible time for Amelia during those
ten years, because it seemed like she enjoyed it, And
I thought, I don't really see her falling head over
(16:33):
heels with this guy, but I do see her finding
a friendship there. And you know, that was why I
chose to characterize and write Lord Hunston the Lord Chamberlain
the way that I did. So sometimes it means taking
a clue out of history and just sort of spinning
it and extrapolating it to create the character around it.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
I mean, what a luxury are you? Just like, take
what you like and discard what you don't. You know that?
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Yeah, I mean that is the definition and essence of
being a writer.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
Okay, but wait, can I tell you the freakiest thing
that happened to me when I was writing this book
one of them way is that I wanted to combat
again all the tragedy in Amelia's life was I thought
this woman deserved a little happiness, and so I wanted
to give her a love affair with a man she
truly loved. And there's this historical fact when Amelia's in
her sixties, she goes to court. She represents herself in court,
which is crazy, and she's fighting her brother in law
(17:22):
after her husband's death. She was basically supposed to get
money from a patent that hewned, and her brother in
law stole it all. At the end of this trial,
out of nowhere, the Earl of Southampton comes swaning into
the court room and he goes, hey, this isn't my court,
but if it was, I'd find in favor of her. Now,
this would never happen. You would just not see a
noble intervene in some commoner's life, right, And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa,
(17:46):
why did this guy come out of nowhere to talk
to Amelia? And then I realized, you know, during those
ten years that she was living with the Lord Chamberlain,
court was a pretty small group of courtiers and ladies nobles.
She would have known Southampton, and he was about three
and a half years younger than she was. He was
considered to be quite a hotty of the time. So
I'm like, great, I'm going to have them get it on.
(18:07):
So I'm writing all this great Elizabethan six, you know,
and I was really enjoying the relationship I created for them,
which was like this absolute doomed love affair, because there
was no world in which the Earl of Southampton was
ever going to wind up, you know, completely married to
some commoner like Amelia. Anyway, I write the whole thing.
I finished the book and I go to the Victorian
(18:29):
Albert Museum in England because I've been invited to hold
and see the miniature of Amelia that exists. So I
go to the archives. The archives take it out. I'm
holding her in my hands, which was just amazing, but
my eye keeps getting drawn to the box that had
all these miniatures in it, and the one that was
right next to her, and it's a man with long,
(18:49):
curly red hair looked a lot like mine. And I
just kept staring at it, and I said to the archive,
is who is that? And they said, oh, well, we
don't know. That's an unknown man. And I said, can
you tell me what was painted? So they look it
up and it's about the exact same time as the
Amelia miniature, and I pull up on my phone an
accredited painting of the Earl of Southampton which looks exactly
(19:10):
like that, and I said, I think maybe it's him,
and they start looking at it and they realize we
do a deep dive. The miniature that I've pulled up
was painted four years later by the same artist. Even
more interestingly, in that unknown man miniature, the man is
on a black background instead of a traditional blue.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
His hand is.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
Covering his heart, and it's painted on the three of
hearts a playing card, which in early you know Elizabethan
tarot called cardamancy, kind of signified a soulmate, someone you
love desperately but would never wind up with. All of
those things would have been the decision of the person
sitting for the portrait.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
And after doing deep.
Speaker 5 (19:50):
Research, the archivists have written me back and they're like, yeah,
we think this actually could be Southampton. So for the
past couple hundred years, the two of them have been
nestled next to each other in a.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
Box at the Victoria and Albert Museum.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
So maybe sometimes you write stuff and it becomes history.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
I don't know, this is turning into an episode of murder.
She wrote, what about her marrying her cousin. Is that
true too?
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Did that happen historically, Yeah, that is historically true.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
His name was Alfonse O. Lanner. He was a jerk.
Speaker 5 (20:19):
He did go through all of her money. He wanted
to be a night, so he kept on. He kept
trying multiple things, but he basically just blew through her cash.
And he did go off to try to be a knight.
He did wind up, ironically on a mission that Southampton
was leading, a naval mission on behalf of the queen.
He never became a knight, and she could not stand him.
(20:39):
I mean, that's all we know is that he did
not treat her well and she was not happy with him,
and she did not want the marriage.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
It's also fascinating, and you know what, it's so nice
to put it in modern terms, in the way that
you write and the way that this book is.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Like our listeners are.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
They love books and they love reading, and they're going
to love this book because it's I love that.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
You are learning through fiction.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
You know there is history involved here, and that you're
learning a lot about Shakespeare. That is for someone I
don't know a lot about Shakespeare, but I would like
to know more and this is just fascinating.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
It's just so well done.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
Oh, thank you. I think it's also for me.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
It was really important to have the modern element in
the book as well, to have the story of her
descendant trying to get this play mounted, you know, about
her ancestor, because as someone who for the past ten
years has been fortunate enough to work in the world
of theater, it's a very male dominated profession, and the
gatekeepers are a bunch of old white men who like
to see stories that reflect their own experience on a stage.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
And that's cyclical.
Speaker 5 (21:40):
You know, if you only see a certain kind of
story on a stage, you start to think maybe that's
the only one that should be worth telling.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
Everything that Melina is.
Speaker 5 (21:48):
Told about her fictional play by any other name, that
it's too emotional, that it's too small, that nobody would
want to see the story of a woman or of
a young girl coming of age. Those are all verbatim
things that I was told when I was working on
my first show.
Speaker 6 (22:04):
Jeez, And now you're adapting the book Thief, right, Yeah,
I am so exciting.
Speaker 5 (22:10):
Yeah, the same team that was working with me on
that show, the original show. Between the lines, we've adapted
the book Thief and it's going to the West End
in the fall of twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Oh, how cool is that? That's so awesome?
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Does what's your experience been like as a female author?
Speaker 1 (22:25):
How's that been?
Speaker 4 (22:26):
So?
Speaker 5 (22:26):
It's really interesting because I think the reason that by
any other name is so personal to me and really
is the book of my heart, is that I have
written so many controversial things, but I am rarely like
the characters.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
That I write.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
However, this is a book about what it means to
be a female storyteller, and that is exactly who I am.
And let me tell you what it is to be
a female storyteller. You sit down on a plane and
someone says what do you do? And you say, I'm
a writer. They look at you, see you're a woman
and they say, oh, do you write romance? And I
say no, do you write children's books?
Speaker 4 (22:59):
No?
Speaker 5 (22:59):
Oh, you must write women's fiction. Those are only the
three categories that women ever write. Apparently, what is even
women's fiction? Why is there no men's fiction? Why do
they just get to be fiction?
Speaker 4 (23:09):
You know?
Speaker 5 (23:09):
So there's still this sense that female writers are pigeonholed
in a way that men never are. If you get
a man who writes a really great book about family
and relationships, they are hailed as the great American author,
as if it is incongruous to have both a heart
and a penis right, And I don't think that's mutually exclusive,
(23:30):
you know, And I think that because of that, women
still feel pigeonholed as writers, even though there are plenty
of women on the bestseller list. The place where we
start to see gender discrimination in publishing is in reviews.
Fewer women are reviewed, and there are fewer female reviewers.
And at the very very top echelons of publishing, although
we see a lot of female editors, who runs these
(23:51):
publishing companies, it's usually a man.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yeah, yeah, Okay.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
On that, We're going to take a break and we
will be right back with Jodi Pico this week.
Speaker 6 (24:02):
Write in if you have questions about fitness. It could
be something specific you're dealing with in your fitness routine,
how to maintain your motivation or get started with a
new routine, or questions you have on a deeper level
about your physical health and fitness. Right into Dear Chelsea
Podcast at gmail dot com.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Okay, we're back with author Jody Pico. Okay, Jody, we're
gonna give out some advice today. Okay, are you ready?
Speaker 4 (24:25):
I love it?
Speaker 6 (24:26):
Okay, Well, Jody, I know you write about a lot
of controversial topics, so we have some controversial topics in
our advice portion today.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Great, but we're starting with a fun one.
Speaker 6 (24:36):
Sam is writing in and says, Dear Chelsea, I'm a
forty nine year old divorced woman, and I'm looking ahead
as my last kid is headed off to college in
a few years. Since my divorce, I've discovered how much
I need and crave alone time. I didn't get much
of it as a single parent, but as I've gotten older,
I love it. I consider myself an extroverted, introvert who
(24:59):
really needs solitude to recharge. I've often dreamt that once
my last kid leaves the nest, I would move out
somewhere on the East Coast, work remotely for my job,
and just enjoy peacefulness and calm in a small seaside town.
I've started opening up about this to friends and family,
who have mostly thought I was kidding, but deep down
I really want this to be the trajectory for this
next phase of life.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
I have a great network where I live.
Speaker 6 (25:22):
All my family is here.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
We're a tight group.
Speaker 6 (25:25):
I'm getting some pushback, in particular from my sister, who
cannot fathom that I would move away, saying that I
should be preparing myself to be the doting grandmother around
the corner. I guess I'm just looking for either some
validation that I'm not crazy or a two y four
across the head to knock some reality into me that
just because my kids leave the house doesn't mean I
should move away on some weird eat prey love journey.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
But should I Sam Wow?
Speaker 5 (25:49):
So I mean, I am a new grandma, and let
me tell you, it's the best thing ever. But I
don't live around the corner for my grandkids, so everything
is a journey for me if I see them, or
it's a journey for them to see me. And it
feels to me from the letter you just read that honestly,
she's already kind of made up her mind.
Speaker 4 (26:10):
She wants to go.
Speaker 5 (26:11):
And I don't think there's anything wrong with a mom
who has been in the wings watching her kids grow
up suddenly stepping out to be the focus of the limelight.
I think if she is at all worried about making
such a radical move. Go rent an airbnb for a
few months and rent out your own house and see
(26:31):
how it feels, and then if it works, then look
for something more permanent. But it sounds to me like
she's kind of already made up her mind.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Yeah, a lot of our callers are right in or
call in when they've made up their mind and they
need another person to go Yep, you're doing the right thing.
And I would say, as someone at the same exact
age who did not have to raise children and did
not have to put my time and energy into someone,
if you have a calling to spend time alone and
you have a desire to do that, that means you
have been deprived of that, and that you need to
(27:01):
go and run towards yourself with open arms. When we
have these feelings and it's just someone's advice that is
holding you back, that's not valid. Like if someone's telling
you no, you shouldn't be doing that. You have every
right to pursue your dreams and you haven't pursued them yet.
And so like Jody what you're saying, you're a forty
nine year old new grandmother, you've also pursued your dreams
(27:23):
during all of this, right, you've been able.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
To pursue who you want to be.
Speaker 5 (27:26):
I'm assuming yeah, absolutely, or I wouldn't be here today.
But I also had an amazing support network, and I
love that. You might think I'm forty nine, but I'm
fifty eight.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Right, Well, but I'm saying yes, okay, yeah, well we're
all forty nine for this purpose of this conversation. But yes,
I think as women, I can't stress enough or try
to help you enough to make the decision to do
what you want to do how you want to do it.
You are free now of responsibility. There's no one saying
(27:55):
having a grandchild or grand baby any minute, and then
that's a break when you get to it. And and
Jody's advice about getting something temporarily, it's great advice. I mean,
go try it out that way. If you find a
place and you're like, oh, I don't love this section
of town or this area, you can pick up and
move to another place and try it out there until
you find a place that does fit and that doesn't.
(28:17):
But like, your happiness is the most important thing, Like
you are in charge of it and no one else
is bringing you the happiness.
Speaker 6 (28:24):
Yeah, Like she's got a vision for her life. Follow
that vision, and of course when you do have grandkids,
they're gonna love coming and seeing Granny in the seaside down.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
M M right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
I also think I think that the saddest thing in
the world is when you get to the end of
your life and you think, what if I had done that?
You know, I mean, to me, that would be the
greatest loss. And it's okay to fail because that means
you were brave enough to try.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
But also, in your book, like this woman is not
given any choices along the way, she is not given
any choices. We live in a time where we have
the ability to make a choice for ourselves. In the
current time we are living in. You were allowed to
go and do that, so go fucking do it.
Speaker 6 (29:05):
Sam, Keep us posted when you find your airbnb on
the sea side, send us a picture, yes, Jony.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Before we move on, I have to tell you this.
Speaker 6 (29:13):
I one of my favorite memories of my father, whose
birthday it is today, not understanding what it's like to
live with a teenage girl. I was reading My Sister's
Keeper many years.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Ago when I was one of my favorite books of
all time.
Speaker 6 (29:24):
So good, gosh, thank you and one of the best
endings of all time. And I got to the end,
I turned the final page. I'm weeping, sobbing uncontrollably. My
dad hears this from the other room, comes out from
his office and is like, oh my god, what's going on?
Who died? Like a total panic, and I was like,
couldn't breathe. I'm just like pointing at the book like no,
(29:45):
it's just it's this. He was so pissed at me.
He's just like, I truly thought that someone in our
life had died, but he gave me that one of
those wonderful memories.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Because of that, I know, It's like, man, have never
cried reading a book? Ookay, I guess I know.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
It's like, what do.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
You notice, Jodie when you're on planes that you cry
more when you're reading a book.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
So it's funny because when I was adapting the book Thief,
I was writing part of the ending and I was
crying really really, really hard, and like the flight attendant
came over and wanted to make sure I was okay.
And my co librettist when he was doing his part
of the ending, the flight attendant came over and gave
him wine because we were just a wreck, you know.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
Writing this on the plane, so yeah, I cry all
the time when I write.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
There's something about being in the altitude that makes you
like I can watch something on a plane that I
would not cry at in real life, and I'll be crying.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
But anyway.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (30:39):
Well, our next question comes from Lynette. She is twenty seven.
She says, you're Chelsea. I would love to get your
opinion on how to ease my new amazing man into
my life, which includes my drug addicted dad and my
currently imprisoned fellon mother. I am my little sister's only
parent practically, she lives with me, and my new boyfriend
(30:59):
knows that I've been the only stable mother figure for her,
but he hasn't met her yet and really has no
idea how bad my parents' situation is. My fear is
that it will all be too much for him, as
it has been for other partners in the past. I'm
stressed and scared and don't know how to ease someone
into a life with someone like me with a broken family.
Any advice would be in the world to me. Thank
(31:19):
you so much, Lynette, and she's joining us here.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Hi, Lynette, Hilanette. Hello, Hi, Hi, this is Jodi Pico,
our special guest today.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
It's so nice to meet you.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
So what does your boyfriend know?
Speaker 2 (31:32):
So at this point, he knows about my mom being
in prison, and I've kind of shared how my dad
smokes weed and has always done that and you know,
back in the day, was like a little bit of
a drug dealer. But he doesn't know that he's homeless
and like really you know, a drug addict when it
comes to like meth. And we've had a lot of disputes,
(31:53):
me and him, my dad, and he still struggles with it,
and he's still really involved in like my little sister's life,
and you know, he comes around here and there, and
you know, holidays are coming up, so he's probably going
to meet him at some point. And sorry, and I
just don't know how to say it. I feel like
(32:14):
I'm withholding the truth almost from him really because when
he meets him, it's it's pretty obvious, like family has
expressed how he doesn't look well and like where is
he staying, And he'll swing by just to like, you know,
see my sister and me. But I really don't want
a relationship with my dad. I've you know. Like I said,
(32:34):
I've had spats with him, and I don't know, it's
just hard. My little sister says the same thing, like
he's just so obviously crazy and doesn't want to change,
doesn't want help, Like he hasn't had a job for
like over a year, and he talks about getting a
job and helping but doesn't really And the real thing
(32:55):
we need him to do is he has he's working
on my little sister's car. She's about to get license.
She really needs to have a car. And that's really
why we keep the contact, is to just get him
to at least do that, fix the car, bring it
for her like he promised he'd do. But at this point,
it's like you've had over a year to do it,
(33:15):
and here we are, you know, and this boyfriend's so great,
like he helps us so much, you know, and I
just feel so guilty that I haven't been totally honest.
And I'm afraid that the longer I wait, you know,
the more distrust he's going to build with me, you know.
And I don't think he's not going to accept it.
But it's just a hard conversation to have, you know,
(33:37):
Like even now talking about it is making me super anxious,
you know, because it's.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Oh my god, you've had to bear so much responsibility
for your family.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
You're such an amazing sister.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Thank you, Chelsea. You are you know, I think anybody
would do what I'm doing. But it's just hard because
he's such a gas lighter and he's just always got
an excuse for everything, for why he is the way
he is, And even like talking about the drugs, he's like, oh, well,
it's just crystal, and I'm like, it's not just crystals.
It's a hard drug. Like why don't you see how
(34:09):
it's broken our family, How you shouldn't how you should
look for help, Like, you know, my mom is in
prison from a lot of issues with alcohol. You know,
her second DUI, like her first one was child endangerment
for having a little sister in the car. And they're
just both so crazy and they make each other more
crazy and they enable each other. And it's like he's
(34:32):
always told me like I'm there for you, I'll always
be here for you, like whatever you need. But it's
like he really doesn't know just how bad it is.
You know, We've only been dating seriously for like a month,
so it.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Sounds like you really need to set some boundaries with
your parents. I don't know what the benefit is of
having your father remain in your life in the condition
he's in. I don't think that's going to have a
good impact on your little sister. And it's definitely just
adding a level of stress to your life. You already
have enough that you're dealing with, don't you agree, Jodie?
Speaker 4 (35:06):
Absolutely? Absolutely.
Speaker 5 (35:08):
And I also want to know, Lynnette, what was his response,
your boyfriend's response when you did tell him like that
your mom was in prison and stuff.
Speaker 4 (35:15):
What did you say to you?
Speaker 2 (35:16):
He was really supportive, you know, he he kind of
said the same thing, like I don't know how you're
managing everything that you are, Like, I'm here for you.
I can only imagine how hard it is. I've always
been really involved, like my parents have always been troubled,
and it's just pushed me away and wanted to push
me to work harder and be better. And it makes
me build that spite too, because it's like I've done
(35:37):
it all.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
For myself, And what about your little sister.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
She at one point was kind of like an empathizer,
and she like, my dad is the cool guy. And
he's always the lax parent, and so she would kind
of talk to me and be like, don't be so
hard on him, and like, well, he's trying. And now
that she's I think opened her eyes and a little
bit older and realizes just how bad it is, she
(36:00):
is getting kind of like a distaste for him, and
it just sucks that this is our dad. And I'm like,
I know, and you know, that's heartbreaking for her to
be so young, because I had it a little later,
like I was like in college when I really got
to open my eyes to it all. And here she is,
like sixteen barely and having to deal with that and
then also manage the fact that we have to balance
(36:22):
this relationship so he will just own up to what
he said he'll do for us, and it's hard. She's
so strong and so mature and she really does handle
it well, but I know it's heartbreaking for her.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
You know, Yeah, what do you think about setting some boundaries?
Can you set boundaries and tell him that he's not
welcome to come by the house. I don't think this
car fucking Matt Like, you can't depend on him for
fixing the car. He's unreliable and he's smoking crystal math.
It's a rap on him until he gets his shit
together as far as responsibilities go.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
I know, I know. And the thing is like, she
really does need it, and you know we could, I
could try and do without it, but we do need
the help. And he says it's a simple fix, so
it should happen sooner than later. But I've already started,
Like Chelsea, I was paying his phone bill for the
last year, so recently I told him. I was like, Dad,
I can't do this anymore, Like this added expense is
(37:14):
kind of crazy for me. Like if you can get
your own phone, that would really help, you know, Like,
and so he's like, I know, I'll do it, but
by the end of the month, like I'll just get
a Walmart phone and do it that way so you
don't have to pay for it. And I feel bad,
you know, all my aunts everybody tells me too, like
you need to stop paying his phone bill, like he's
not together.
Speaker 6 (37:31):
Yeah, And I think the types of boundaries that Chelsea
is talking about are things like I'll pay it to
the end of the month, and then at the end
of the month, you shut the phone off, you know,
whether or not he's gotten one for himself. You need
to be focusing on protecting yourself, your energy, and your sister.
And right now your dad is not a safe person
to be around either one of you. I think you're
(37:54):
right also about the car situation.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
I mean, if it's such an easy fix, someone else
can do it, you know what I mean. It's almost
like a having anything that you need from him is
not a good dynamic between somebody who is a drug addict.
You don't want to have anything from him, and you
don't want him to come by, like you have to
set a boundary before you even, you know, broach this
with your boyfriend. I would say, like, listen, the more honest,
(38:16):
the better. In every situation, I prefer honesty. I mean, yes,
it's a month long relationship, it's very new, it is
a lot of information, but you're so sweet and loving
like that. You don't have bad vibes. You're not trying
to pull the wool over someone's eyes. And I'm sure
he sees that in you, you know, And I think
you should be honest and be honest about why you've
(38:38):
kept it from him. And I wonder if maybe he'll
surprise you with some sort of ideas and solutions about
boundaries too, because you're raising your sister because your father
and mother can't do it, there's no reason you should be.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Helping them in any way. You already have enough to
deal with.
Speaker 6 (38:56):
Yeah, and right now I want you to focus on
building your support sys. So, whether that's like relying on
your aunties, cultivating this relationship with your boyfriend and with
your sister, reach out to people who are in your
circle already, who you know you can rely on and trust.
Work on cultivating your support network because your dad is
not part of it. He just can't be part of
(39:18):
it anymore.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
And setting a boundary with people like that is an
act of love. That doesn't mean you don't love him,
even if he says you don't love me, This is terrible.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
How you could you do this?
Speaker 3 (39:27):
You have to know coming from me, that that is
an act of love. That's an act of love on
behalf of your father and your sister and yourself. By
saying no, we don't want you around here in the
shape you're in. We don't want to see this anymore,
you know, And that's about our respecting yourself and your sister.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Yeah, you're right, it's what I need to do to
protect her and keep her, you know, on the right path,
and you know, push him to realize, like there's no excuse,
it is what it is, and you're right, I need
to establish a boundary.
Speaker 7 (40:00):
Really.
Speaker 5 (40:01):
I think also you've been such a role model for
your sister and if she's kind of at this waffling
stage where she is seeing do I have responsibility to
my dad or can I make that break? Seeing you
being able to set those hard boundaries I think is
going to be really helpful to her.
Speaker 4 (40:18):
Yeah, you're right, Thank you, that's so true.
Speaker 6 (40:20):
I want you to know too that you are not alone.
There are a lot of people who have gone through
similar situations. So I'm going to help you look for
like maybe an alan on which is for families of
people who have alcohol and drug addiction, or you know,
some kind of therapy in your area that will be
low cost or free and that you can go in
and keep building that support system.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Okay, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
And I also just before you go, like I really
want you to recognize what an incredible thing you've done
and like what are you are continuing to do? There
is so much value in what you've provided for your sister,
which is stability, love and comfort like there there is
no number you can put on that and the impact
you're having on her life and I'm sure the impact
(41:06):
on you she's having on your life.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
And just because.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Everybody would probably do that, does it mean that it's
without the value that you have brought to the situation.
And that alone is going to give you the ability
to move forward with your new boyfriend, to move forward
with new boundaries. For your father, you are her role model,
just like Jodie said, and so with every act moving forward,
(41:29):
and that includes being honest with your boyfriend, think of
your yourself, setting an example for your younger sister.
Speaker 4 (41:34):
Yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Okay, good luck with everything. Thank you so much for
calling you. Love you guys, Thank you bye, honey.
Speaker 6 (41:45):
Oh my god, I know, I know, such a sweetheart.
I do also think maybe Chelsea, we can do a
GoFundMe with the dear Chelsea listeners and like get that
sure fixed?
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah I would love Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do that.
Speaker 6 (41:57):
Yeah great, So we'll put that in the so you
guys can donate their sweetie puss, I know, I know.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Well, let's take a quick break.
Speaker 6 (42:06):
I've got one more caller who's also got a bit
of a sticky situation.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Okay, we'll take a break and we'll be right back.
And we're back with Jody Pico.
Speaker 6 (42:18):
We are back.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Well.
Speaker 6 (42:20):
Our last caller today is TJ and he is a
flight attendant. He says, Dear Chelsea, I'm a gay male
in my thirties and I've worked as a flight attendant
for a major US carrier going on seven years. For
the entire length of that career, I have been poked, prodded, touched, tapped, nudged,
and flicked. Over the last couple of years, I've become
(42:40):
more frustrated with people touching me to get my attention.
When I was more junior in my career, I would
just brush it off and keep it moving. These days,
I make it a point to let people know they
don't get to touch me.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Here's where things get quote touchy for me.
Speaker 6 (42:53):
Very recently, a grown woman slapped my ass as I
was bent over grabbing her something from the cart during
our beverage service in the main cabin. It was completely
embarrassing and triggering for me to have experienced this in
my place of work, and even worse.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
When I laid down the.
Speaker 6 (43:07):
Law with her, she said nothing, had no remorse, and
acted like I was in the wrong for telling her
not to make unwarranted sexual advances. I requested police meet
the flight, had her escorted off, filed a police report,
and requested to press charges. I have a sneaking suspicion
nothing will be done about this, as we don't have
much follow through with instances like these. I'm wondering if
(43:27):
I should take matters into my own hands and bring
my own legal counsel. As the unofficial spokesperson for flight attendants, Chelsea,
I'm wondering if you have any litigious insight for me.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
Best. TJ Hi, TJ Hi, Hi. This is Jody. This
is our special guest day.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Jody.
Speaker 4 (43:43):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
I'm so sorry that happened to you.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
It's like the women's movement is moving so quickly, it's
flashing before our eyes.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Now we're acting like men.
Speaker 7 (43:53):
I know the pendulum is swinging.
Speaker 4 (43:56):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
I mean this is really a personal question.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
I mean, how it feels like you really want your
voice to be heard, And if you were a woman
in this situation, I would say, you know, be indefatigable
in your desire and pursuit to have your voice heard.
So I guess I would say the same thing to you,
because it takes someone, it takes like a whistleblower to
get the party started. Like the fact that people still
(44:22):
think that they can touch flight attendants is a little
bit antiquated.
Speaker 7 (44:26):
Yeah, definitely. I mean it's interesting because I felt like
it wasn't being taken very.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Seriously in the moment.
Speaker 7 (44:33):
Right as I discussed with Catherine, I had looped the
pilots into what was going on, and their response was, oh, well,
we'll get a gate agent to meet the flight and
talk to the passenger. And I said, no, I want
police because if this was one of the female flight
attendants getting groped by a man, we would be landing
this fucking plane. So like it with the program.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Absolutely, was there alcohol involved?
Speaker 4 (44:59):
Was she drunk?
Speaker 7 (45:00):
So I keep people keep asking that question. And she
was kind of a weirdo, but she wasn't like, she
wasn't showing signs of intoxication like red eyes, sirt speech,
and you know, we're kind of look for those things.
In fact, she was ordering a drink from me, and
of course that didn't happen. It was odd, and just
for more context, as I was handing the drink over
(45:23):
is when she slapped me and I shot up and
so before I could even say anything, she looked at
me and said, sorry, I just couldn't help myself. And
that's when I just like went in for the kill.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Yeah, oh my god.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
It feels like the flight like flying and airplanes and
airplane announcements need a major fucking update, like between people
wearing flip flops or taking their shoes off and rubbing
their feet. There was somebody sent me a DM the
other day of somebody drying their underwear in front of.
Speaker 1 (45:51):
Their seat in first class.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
They had their underwear out and it was hanging on
some on their trade table like some hook above it
and drying.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
And I was like, oh, oh my god.
Speaker 3 (46:02):
We need an update in the aviation system of when
people board planes to understand that there are rules and
regulations and you're not allowed to physically touch a flight attendant.
So if you really have the energy to go after this,
I would say, fucking go for it and try and
change the system.
Speaker 5 (46:18):
You know.
Speaker 3 (46:19):
I mean this is because it's absolutely true women can
get away with that kind of behavior now that men
can't as easily. The behavior has to apply to all sexes.
So I would say, if you have the like you know,
if you have the resources and you want to go
after it, go after it. Otherwise, I mean, I think
you should go after it with the intention of actually
(46:40):
making the airlines acknowledge that this is an ongoing problem
and they need to address it when everybody is boarding
the flight, like they address all the other things. And
I've heard that, by the way, on planes, I've heard that,
especially during COVID, I've heard pilots say, do not get
upset with your flight attendant. She is not the one
making you wear a mask, you know. Like they had
all these preliminary announcements that were varying from airline to airline,
(47:03):
but they were addressing it, and that does need to
be a more permanent announcement.
Speaker 7 (47:07):
I mean, ever since this happened, I hop on the
inner phone before we even go on the aisle and
I say, as a reminder, take out your headphones when
you're speaking to us, and do not touch the flight
attendants like it's a petting zoo.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
It's insane, but perfect. Yeah, you're doing it already.
Speaker 4 (47:23):
Also, the other.
Speaker 5 (47:24):
Thing that I would recommend is if there's a way
to escalate this through your company, that's really important because
then it can become a company wide policy. But think
about other places that you can speak out and tell
your story, you know, So in terms of I don't
know if there is this is a great place, for example,
but there are other outlets like this media. There might
(47:45):
be someone who would be willing to do a local
story on it on the news or something like that.
That might be a really interesting place to spread the word,
which I think is is really important.
Speaker 3 (47:53):
Yeah, I feel like that aspect of things is more
paramount than theligigious aspect. You want to have to spread
awareness on every issue, you know, and sometimes when we
go after something legally, it's like it becomes such negative
energy that you're putting towards it. So I'm always looking
for an avenue not to do that.
Speaker 7 (48:11):
And I think that's the biggest problem I'm having with
this is I'm not like a litigious person by nature.
I'm not vindictive, and going after somebody on a civil
level for like a monetary value seems kind of icky.
But I'm like, is this a way for me to
turn that page. Is this something where I can see like, oh,
something has been done about this, this person has been punished.
Speaker 3 (48:34):
But listen, I think the spreading awareness is more important
than the punishing of this woman. Yeah, she learns her lesson,
She learned it. She's not going to do that again
most likely, you know what I mean, she got it.
You didn't react well to that, so I mean hopefully
she did. But I think what JODI's saying is right, Like,
you're sit telling the story here. Millions of people will
hear this and you're making the announcement yourself on your flights,
(48:56):
which is great, and keep doing that, you know what
I mean, because that if I heard that on a plane,
that's going.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
To make me go, oh my god, who touched too?
You know what happened here that we're being told that.
So and you should talk to other flight attendants about it.
And anytime you can tell the story, do it.
Speaker 6 (49:12):
And if you're a journalist or podcaster listening who wants
to dig more into the story, contact me and I
can put.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
You in touch with TJ.
Speaker 7 (49:18):
Yeah, gorgeous.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
All right, Well, thanks for calling in.
Speaker 7 (49:22):
And thank you for having me on.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
Thanks so much, TJ. Good luck with everything. I hope
I see you on a flight.
Speaker 4 (49:27):
I hope so too. Well, I'll waterboard you.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
With some vodka, okay, and then i'll smack you on
the ass. That'll be perfect. Okay. Bye, less and learned,
lesson learned, Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (49:39):
Okay, bye bye. Okay, Jody, we're going to wrap up
with you. First of all, what a great description of
your book. I want to say thank you for describing
your book in that way, because many authors have a
lot of trouble talking about their own books. So it's
very refreshing to see someone with such a great sense
of humor and so relatable giving us all this information
(50:00):
which may not be so relatable, but coming from the
filter of you makes it more so.
Speaker 4 (50:05):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (50:06):
Thank you for reading the book. I really appreciate it,
and I just hope that I hope people really take
it to heart and see that a lot's changed to
four hundred years, but a lot sure hasn't.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
Yeah. I think they will. I think they will, all right,
Thanks so much, Jodie, Take.
Speaker 4 (50:22):
Care, take care, bye bye.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (50:27):
So upcoming shows that I have you, guys, I will
be all over Maine, Charlotte, North Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina.
I'm coming to Texas. I'm coming to Saint Louis and
Kansas City, and then I will be in Las Vegas
performing at the Chelsea Theater inside the Cosmopolitan Hotel. My
first three dates in Vegas our September first, Labor Day weekend,
(50:49):
and then November two and November thirtieth.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
I'm coming to.
Speaker 3 (50:53):
Brooklyn, New York, at the King's Theater on November eighth,
and I have tickets on sale throughout the end of
the year in December, so if you're in a city
like Philadelphia or Bethlehem, or San Diego or New Orleans
or Omaha, check Chelseahandler dot com for tickets.
Speaker 6 (51:11):
Okay, if you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an
email at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and
be sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is
edited and engineered by Brad Dickert executive producer Catherine law
and be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler
dot com.
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