Sounds Familiar: Love Ya with Dylan Mulvaney

We’re back January 11th with all-new episodes of Dear Chelsea.  Until then, enjoy this fond memory of our time with Dylan Mulvaney!

 

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Executive Producer Catherine Law

Edited & Engineered by Brad Dickert

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The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the Podcast author, or individuals participating in the Podcast, and do not represent the opinions of iHeartMedia or its employees.  This Podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, mental health counseling or therapy, or as imparting any health care recommendations at all.  Individuals are advised to seek independent medical, counseling advice and/or therapy from a competent health care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issues, health inquiry or matter, including matters discussed on this Podcast. Guests and listeners should not rely on matters discussed in the Podcast and shall not act or shall refrain from acting based on information contained in the Podcast without first seeking independent medical advice.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to season four. Everybody. This is season four of
Dear Chelsea. Thank you for helping make us a sweet success. Okay,
hello Catherine, Hi Chelsea, Hi, what's well? My god? Season four,
so many things have happened.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
I know.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
I feel like these little communities are for me. People
are reaching out to each other. I can't tell you
how many times somebody will hear someone call in and
they contact me and they'll be like, listen, I have
the perfect solution for them, or I can connect them
with someone who can help them. And so I passed
their little email along and it's just really wonderful.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
I wish Bernice could call in. Oh my dog, I
wish she could call in because I want to know
what's on her mind. All I know is all I
know is I love her. Ever since Bert passed away,
Slash got put down only because it was the end
of the road, not because I wanted to get rid
of him. Can you imagine if he pissed me off
and I just put him down Anyway, Bernice has been

(00:59):
a eat hert. Just the last night she was in bed.
I usually have to force her up into my bed,
which I had to stop doing because she had this
really wicked cough. And I say wicked because I'm from
Boston and the Boston area, but she had this really
wicked cough and I was like, God, is she getting
like second hand smoke from all my joints? And then
I was like, is she smoking her own joints?

Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:19):
And then I sent her the doctor and they kept giving
her cough medicine, cough medicine, and cough pills, and I
was like, it's not a cough, it's deeper than that.
So then we took her to another VET and they
found out that she has a collapsed trachea, which they
kind of intimated. Carla, my assistant, kind of tried to
make it like it was my fault for picking her
up her whole life. And I told Carla to just

(01:42):
take it down a notch and shut the front door,
because that I don't pick her up by her fucking throat,
first of all. Secondly, so now when I go up,
she goes up to doggy stairs, I put a leash
on her. I guide her up, you know, to trapper
like a lobster. But now last night and this has
been happening. Yeah, she when I come back for my tour,
weekends because you know, I've been on my tour. I

(02:04):
come back and she comes, I guide her up the
steps and she doesn't go down. Now, oh, she woke
up like three times last night and she was like.
I was like, I put the light on so she
could see the steps so she could go down, you know,
to her doggy bed. But then she just looked at me,
circled back around, dug her feet in, and went back
to sleep. So she's been sleeping with me through the night,
which is I've never ever had this experience. When Bert

(02:25):
was alive, nice and you know, she again, like any
marginalized woman, she has been marginalized. And since Bert is
gone and he required so much attention and cuteness and neediness.

Speaker 4 (02:36):
They get like mad at you, they get I think.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
Mimsy's like still mad at me, me specifically forgetting these
two puppies.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
She forget mad at you, and I won't. I was
I was like, oh, I got to get another puppy
because I like to have two. But I'm going to
wait until the fall a because that's irresponsible because I'm
going to be traveling a lot during the summer and
be I want this time alone with my daughter. Now
I understand it's true.

Speaker 3 (03:00):
Like I definitely feel I have a lot of like
mother's guilt of I'm not spending enough time with Mimsy
and now that the puppies are like the squeaky wheels
in my face all the time. So I'm working on that,
like taking her frextra walks, giving her actual love, which
she like also sometimes doesn't want because she's like, I
just want to like snuggle you, I don't want you
to snuggle me back.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
She's very that.

Speaker 3 (03:20):
Oh really, yeah, she like wants to be like between
your legs, but like she won't be in your front nook.
She won't be spooned.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
She doesn't have a hook. Oh my god, front, she
can't be in your front nook. Now translation under your
arm everyone, exactly. You didn't see Catherine's gesticulation, so to
understand exactly what that meant. Yeah, but I appreciate the
one on one time and she's so sweet Bernice, and
I just love her so much, and I'm just so

(03:48):
grateful that I have dogs. In other non knin news,
I got these glasses, these progressive glasses. I got about
six pair maid three sunglasses and three regular glasses. And
the guy explained to me that the top part is
for to see distance, the middle part is to see intermediate.
I'm like, what the fuck is intermediate? And the bottom
part is for a close up. But when I sit

(04:08):
on a plane, if I look down the print on
the book because I like to read on my plane rides, yeah,
I have to hold my head in a certain way
so that it makes the print readable. Yeah. And I
don't like these. And a lot of people warn me
about these, and I'm going to take them all back
and have them. I want bifocals, is what I want.

Speaker 4 (04:26):
Yeah, just two, not three.

Speaker 1 (04:27):
I don't need three compartments. And by the way, he
was like, oh, I put a prescription on the top.
I go, there is no prescription on the top. I've
had lasik And he said, no, there's a light prescription.
And I'm like, I don't think that there is. So
I mean, I guess ophthalmologists are right up there with
veterinarians in my book. Yeah. They don't seem to have
a real concrete answer to anything. Everything's vague. Why would

(04:48):
you need intermediate seeing? Like between distance and short sighted?
Why do you need to see another subthence.

Speaker 3 (04:54):
There famously have only been two for a very long time.

Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yea, so I guess people don't like the line in
the bifocal. I don't give a shit, though, I mean
I'm gonna be how old are I forty eight? I
mean at a certain point, I just have to give up.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, Brad had that happened once where he went to
a new optometrist and this guy was like, no, no,
I know your real prescription. All of the doctors you've
been seeing for the last fifteen years are wrong.

Speaker 1 (05:21):
That's like when you get your bras fitted. You know,
someone's like, oh, these are the brods. This is gonna
be the bra that fits you, and it is for
the first twenty minutes, and then after you wear it,
you're like, no, my tits look like what.

Speaker 4 (05:31):
Are these cones?

Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (05:33):
Yeah, forties? Look where my tits look pointy? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (05:36):
And you just get stabbed in weird spots and it's
no good.

Speaker 5 (05:39):
I don't know about bro fitting, but definitely I've been
wearing glasses since like third grade. And this doctor was like, oh, hey,
you know what your prescription. Let your eyes do the work.
Let your eyes work for it. And then he gave
me this prescription that was less so everything was blurry
and I had to like squint it everything that doesn't
make any fucking sense.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeh, work for what? And then also, you know my
favorite book, Letting Go by David Hawkings. In it, he
talks about letting go of the fact that you can't
see and just not wearing glasses and that his vision
miraculously came back to him. So I try that for
about a month not to not That's the only section
of the book. I'm like, listen, buddy, I don't know

(06:15):
what kind of magic you're working.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
You guys are just like bootstrapping your eyes.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
My corny is just going to repair itself because I've
decided to let go. If you believe enough, it will.
But I am in a great meditation zone. Yes, yeah,
I'm really feeling my meditations lately. I do that. I've
been doing my Chopra app and I do these courses,
but you know, sometimes you don't really feel it. You
just feel like you're sitting there thinking. But I'm really
able to like stop my thoughts and I'm like going

(06:42):
to this like place, like this light place. It's very reliable,
and now I'm craving it. I mean, this has been
I don't know how many years I've been meditating, probably
like four or five now, but it's been great. But
I'm in a zone right now and I'm liking it
a lot.

Speaker 3 (06:57):
Do you what's it called when you can like cast
your spirit somewhere else.

Speaker 1 (07:02):
That's what I feel like. That's what you're doing, Like
I'm not in my body.

Speaker 5 (07:05):
Astral projection.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yes, astral projection. Is that about my asshole?

Speaker 4 (07:11):
That's exactly what it is.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
Astral projection. Well, that's what I think I'm doing anyway,
Who knows if that's what I'm doing, But it feels
like I'm not in my body, like I'm in some
light filled atmosphere with my mom and my brother. They're
always with me, so that's fine.

Speaker 3 (07:23):
I love that visit them anytime.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
Yeah, I picture my mom like a little nimph flying around,
like a little sphinx or Noah sphinx or nymph a
fairy very It's like that Greek mythology thing, like when
they fly around and bright yeaes spright. That's what I
think of.

Speaker 3 (07:39):
And Chelsea, you're about to be traveling a bunch and
I have.

Speaker 1 (07:43):
Just announced new stand updates for My Little Big Bitch
tour guys, I announced twenty five new cities. These are
probably a lot of the cities people have been mentioning
in the comments. I start out in East Hampton, I
go to New York, d C. During North Carolina, La, Phoenix, Cleveland, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Millwalky, Chicago, Madison, Portland,
to name just some. I will be performing at the

(08:05):
Kennedy Center everybody that's in DC October sixth. I'm super
psyched to be performing there. There are more. You can
go to Chelseahandler dot com. I am on tour. I
have dates coming up for the next three months and
then more dates coming up in the fall. So those
have all been announced. They're on my Instagram page, or
you can go to Chelsea Hamler dot com. Thank you

(08:26):
our first guest of season four, someone who has been
getting a ton of attention because she has been very
loud and proud about her transition into girlhood and I
am loving it up and I'm loving her Instagram. So
please welcome Dylan mulvaney. Hi, Dylan Mulvaaney in person and
looking beautiful as ever.

Speaker 4 (08:47):
Thank you, Chelsea Handler.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
So excited to finally meet you.

Speaker 4 (08:50):
Oh my god, I got to tell you, this is
a full circle moment. I grew up when I was
about thirteen, fourteen years old, this you know, gay boy
pre transition.

Speaker 2 (08:59):
I was.

Speaker 4 (09:00):
I had a friend group called the Harlot's and it
was me and a bunch of girls, bad bitches, and
we used to pass your books around and that's how
we learned about sex. Oh and and so I texted
them all. It had been a while since i've you know,
talked with them, but I said, You're never going to
believe what I'm going to see today. So I just
really it's it's a very full circle moment.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
Well, I'm so glad to hear that Dylan has gained
a lot of notoriety and popularity on her TikTok series
Becoming a Girl or is it Being a Girl?

Speaker 4 (09:27):
Days of Girlhood?

Speaker 1 (09:28):
Days of Girlhood.

Speaker 4 (09:29):
We just hit day three sixty five a few weeks ago.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yeah, and you had a big celebrate.

Speaker 4 (09:33):
I did a big show musical Baby, I'm Broadway singing,
dancing and acting.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
Oh my god, talk about a full circle moment. Yes,
So I want to ask you so many questions, but
let's just start about gaining the confidence and the self
assuredness to follow your pursuit of becoming the real person
that you wanted to be.

Speaker 4 (09:52):
Absolutely, when I was four years old, I came to
my mom and I said, Mom, I think I'm a girl.
And you know, we grew up very Catholic, very conservative.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
And so where'd you grow up?

Speaker 4 (10:05):
The outskirts of San Diego, Okay, and a little town
called Alpine. And I was a boy in a dance
studio at age three, you know, only boy there dancing,
and and but I came to my mom and I
said this, and she said, well, God doesn't make mistakes.
And this was the year two thousand and so there
really weren't many resources at all, except you know, the
only transness we got to see was a sex worker

(10:26):
on NCIS that had been hurt. You know, we hadn't
seen trans people experiencing success or happiness or you know.
It was I don't resent my family or even myself
for not allowing me to become this woman that I
am now, because this was all part of the journey.

(10:46):
And finally, you know, these those gender thoughts, I pushed
them away because when I was starting to discover my sexuality,
which is a different thing than gender, I thought that
being gay was that the end of the world. I thought, really,
it doesn't, you know, it can't get any worse. And
so transnis wasn't even allowed to be in my mind.

(11:08):
And so I came out as gay at fourteen.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
But when you said to your mother that you were four,
When you were four, you said, I feel I feel
like I'm a girl, and and she just was like,
God doesn't make any mistakes. And that was it.

Speaker 4 (11:19):
We did some you know, I went to some therapy
and again a very different time, so I'm not resentful
at all, right, But it was then at the pandemic,
I was touring with a Broadway musical called The Book
of Mormon.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
And ironic it's wild.

Speaker 4 (11:33):
But I was spent my whole life, you know, doing theater,
playing these male roles, and there was no room even
in that industry to be trans and so once the
pandemic hit, it was the first time that I didn't
even have to see myself playing a part. I was like,
who is Dylan really without theater and religion and all
these things that had been put on me. And I

(11:56):
was a really feminine little boy growing up, and I
felt like I stripped parts of myself away for so
many years that I'm now finding again, and I think
that's been the most beautiful part, is getting to finally
give into those those feelings and those desires and those
outfits and whatever it might be that brings me euphoria.

(12:18):
But during the pandemic, I was like, Okay, let's reopen
that question of gender and I identified as non binary
for about a year went by. They then pronouns, and
it still was not where I was supposed to be,
and I think it was so daunting making that jump
from being a man to then that trans woman title

(12:40):
scared the shit out of me. And it's so funny.
I don't usually curse, but I'm around you and I
kind of feel like I want to let this a
little bit happens, but you have that influence. I thought,
you know, non binary moment of my life was kind
of this little cloud that I got to land on
for a hot second, and it was not the end
of my my journey. That's when I finally accepted. Actually,

(13:03):
I started hormones while I was non binary to you know,
feminize my body, and then I took on that sheep
pronoun and it feels so good.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
I'm so happy to hear that you followed, you were
able to pursue what you felt was necessary to be
a complete human being. And I think what people's resistances
to transgender people, to the whole LGBTQII community is that
it's different from what they know, and anything that's different
than what anybody knows is scares them for some reason,
because it's the same reason people want to hold onto

(13:36):
power and don't want to give equality to everybody because
they're scared of what they may lose and their lack
of understanding. Instead of looking at it as a huge
growth opportunity to be like, oh my God, tell me everything.
I want to understand you better. Right, it doesn't come.

Speaker 4 (13:52):
At the front well, and they you know, a lot
of people don't have a Dylan in their lives to
ask questions. And I think that's kind of why I
got online too, was because I wanted to be that
friend for people. I wanted to show that I'm not
some monster. And it's sad that there are still so
many people that are trying to use this really beautiful

(14:13):
journey against me and twisting my words and taking things
out of context. But at the end of the day,
like I'm happier than I ever have been because I could.
I can't imagine going back to that other person. It
breaks my heart to think about.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
Hmm, yeah, I would imagine. So so how do you
reconcile that? Like when you look back at your former
life before you became a woman, how do you frame
that time?

Speaker 6 (14:41):
You know?

Speaker 4 (14:41):
I try to actually think about it in a very
positive I always do glass half full. Everything that has
happened before transition that was supposed to happen, that was
part of my story. I was learning things and now
I feel like now it's all icing on the cake
because I actually got to the cake finally. But I
just I don't want to ever resent. You know, there

(15:04):
are sometimes the mindset of like every day before you
know I came out was absolutely horrible. But no, I
had some good times in my life, but I just
hadn't entered my full potential at all. You know, when
you're locked into yourself right and you're like, oh, this
is who I am. This feels right. My intuition has
never been more alive within myself. So I'm just I'm

(15:27):
trying to stay strong.

Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, yeah, and you will be strong. You're already strong.
Thank you, you know, and there's always going to be
bumps in the road and things will happen that will
feel like you're getting off course. But it's up to
you to remain steadfast and true to who you are
and to follow your truth because your truth is unlike
anyone else's and people have an easy time forgetting that.
I want to talk a little bit about what it
takes to actually transition, because that is another argument for

(15:54):
the reason that people wouldn't be doing it. It's not easy.
It's not easy to transition. It's not easy to change
your sex that you were born with or to feel
like you're not the person that you were meant to be.
So talk to me a little bit about that.

Speaker 5 (16:09):
Well.

Speaker 4 (16:10):
I really get upset when people say, you know, she
woke up one day and just decided she wanted to
be a girl, Like this was not a decision, This
was who every fiber of my being. And I put
in a lot of frickin' effort and a lot of
you know, mental gymnastics, a lot of therapy, a lot
of soul searching to do this, and it is something

(16:34):
that I don't take lightly. I think that this journey
that I'm on you know, going on hormones. Those were
all huge decisions that I had to make and very
private ones. And while you know, every transition looks completely different,
you know, there are trans people that aren't on hormones
or that might choose not to get surgeries. But for
those of us who need those things for our dysphoria,

(16:56):
we need access to them and that we can't be
vilified for needing those things.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
Right, And you recently had facial feminization, right, oh babe,
I feel it's good, right, yeah, yeah, beautiful.

Speaker 4 (17:10):
And my biggest thing about sharing that process online was
that I didn't want people to see it as plastic surgery.
I needed them to know that this is like an
affirming surgery that can change lives and possibly save lives.
And it was so wild to look in the mirror
and see what I imagined for the you know, for
the first time, to kind of it was just a

(17:33):
soften of my features. I didn't look totally different, but
a very emotional experience. And I do think like there's
power in sharing a story so that people can get
like a little look.

Speaker 1 (17:47):
In absolutely, I mean, that's what you're doing is freeing
other people when you share your story. You're giving license
to other people to share their stories and to follow
their dreams. How many surgeries have you had to have
thus far?

Speaker 4 (17:58):
So it's it's funny, like there's really no rulebook to
how transitions go. And again it's like you can, you know,
sort of pick and choose what it is based on
your euphoria and dysphoria. So you know that was because
I'm so in the public eye right now. I knew
that that was one of the first things that I
wanted to do, since I am so on display and

(18:18):
I was feeling so self conscious and very upset about
my features. But now I'm actually I think I'm going
to take a little bit of a step back about
talking about my physical transition, because, first of all, that
word influencer scares the shit out of me, because I
don't want to influence anyone to do anything. But I

(18:39):
don't want other trans people, especially young trans people, to
feel like they have to do something in a order
to be trans. And so while I do have other
plans and other surgeries that I like, I haven't decided
how I'm going to necessarily share those because I don't
want to set any sort.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
Of precedents that's nice and I'm responsible, I'm sure. I
want to know how it made you feel to get
all this love online. And I mean, you're a viral,
you know, superstar on Instagram and TikTok. If you don't
follow her already, it's at Dylan mulvaney.

Speaker 4 (19:16):
And hey, you're killing it on TikTok right now too.
I'm digging the PSAs great.

Speaker 1 (19:23):
I got another one coming up that involves you, so
so so tell us about what that welcoming and affirmation
must feel like, because after going through something and experiencing
something for so long and taking the balls by you know,
the bull by its horns and saying, fuck it, this
is my life. I'm going to do what I'm going
to do, yeah, you know, and having people applaud.

Speaker 4 (19:43):
That, well, I still don't really get social media, to
be honest. It's it's so crazy how fast things can
can travel there. And I think normally, like I was
a musical theater kid, I just wanted to I still
want to be an actress. And normally you like book
a movie and you have like two years befo for
it comes out, so you kind of have some preparation
of like, okay, this might happen, you know, But I mean,

(20:05):
I think I had a million followers in like seventeen days,
and no one can really like, get you ready for that?
And I think also I was essentially sharing the most
vulnerable parts of my life. So there's kind of a
double whammy of putting yourself out there and having your
transits on display. And if there was if another transperson
came to me right now and said, oh, should I

(20:27):
start from day one and showcase, I'd say, oh, babe,
I don't know about that, just because of all of
the turmoil that's come from it. But I will say
the amount of love and the fact that on day
one I said this is who I am and I
hadn't had, you know, any surgery. I was still very
much finding my femininity and figuring out what really makes

(20:51):
me a woman versus the misogyny that I still am
working through that was placed on me. But I was
supported by women saying we stand by you, we see
you as a woman, We're here for you on this journey.
And now I have people in the comments being like,
we been here since day one, day seven, day nine,
and that gives me hope, and I hope that it

(21:11):
shows other trans people that are still in the closet
that they can when they're ready and on their own time,
that they can feel allowed to come out and to
experience life in the beautiful way.

Speaker 6 (21:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
I think one of the most offensive things to hear
is people who are talking about, you know, trans people, saying, oh,
it's trendy, it's trendy. Are we supposed to let children
change their sex before they're ready because what if they
change their mind back? And it's such a miseducation and
an unknowing. Like I had a friend say to me, oh,

(21:47):
I know there are eight year old kids that are
getting transgender surgery without their parents, and I'm like, that's
simply not true. First of all, there is no eight
year old.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
That can go to the fucking doctor and become drive
themselves there.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
It's just so dumb.

Speaker 4 (22:01):
So it's it's insane that that notion of like trendiness,
because transness has existed like since the beginning of time,
and truly, like in certain cultures, the two spirits or
transness was actually like seen as almost the most holy
or the most reverent or the most respected. And it's
so sad to watch, as you know, the years go by,

(22:25):
it get sort of picked apart due to capitalism and
and all of these things that have essentially let go
of the fact that this is who we are.

Speaker 6 (22:36):
Well.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
And then also just in a scientific aspect, From a
scientific perspective, there is a spectrum of mail. What male
like Arnold Schwarzenegger is at one end of the spectrum, okay,
and then Pamela Anderson is at the other end of
the spectrum. That's a boy, that's a girl, and then
there's fifty million things in between.

Speaker 4 (22:58):
Yes, yes, it's biological as well. It's not just an idea.

Speaker 1 (23:02):
This has been going on since people were born. Like
there's this is not new, This is not trendy. We
just happened to have a vocabulary about it in another
modern era.

Speaker 4 (23:11):
It makes me very sad too when they go, oh,
she's doing this to be to get famous or you
know what. When I came out, I was assumed that
I would not work for a very long time. I
you know, it's not like trans people are out here,
you know, thriving. We're just trying to survive. And I
am My experience online that you know, in my success

(23:33):
is like one one millionth of what it actually is
to be trans. The transphobia I experience is so different
than that of a black trans woman who you know,
these are as much as I am going through it,
and I have you know, a lot of people that
maybe don't care for me. There's still so much privilege
and in what in my experience compared to other trans peoples.

(23:56):
And I need to make sure that we're taking care
of the whole community and that this isn't you know,
some this There's nothing about this that's a gimmick. This
is my truth. It's such an odd remark to make
that they think that I would do this for any reason,
but because of it's such a difficult decision. Yeah, well,
and there is.

Speaker 3 (24:16):
I think there is something scary to people who are
scared of of transness or you know, the LGBTQ community.
There's something scary about someone like you who chooses, despite
that adversity, to show up, bubbling over with joy and
to bring positivity and even though it is difficult, to
still show off your joy.

Speaker 4 (24:36):
Well, and that's the thing I and I'll say also,
and I think you'll get me on this comedy for
me is my way in. And so a lot of
the times. I will make light of sometimes these really
dark situations because it's my coping mechanism. It always has been.
I like making people laugh, I like making people smile.
I was doing a lot of stand up about a

(24:57):
year ago, and I realized it was it was very
healing for me to just I love to overshare. I
think you can relate, but I tried to find the
funny and transness, and it's really it's a slippery slope
because then things get taken out of context or it
gets used against you, and I think I now am
trying to take a step back. And another thing that

(25:19):
happens too in your trans is you immediately get labeled
as like an activist and that you know how to
speak on all of these things and that you have
the answers. But I'm a baby trans. You know, I'm
still so new to my journey that I've made a
lot of missteps. I've spoken out of turn. And the
most important thing is that you know, hopefully not all

(25:39):
trans people have to be these like activists have to
have every single answer. You know, I have so much
left to learn.

Speaker 1 (25:47):
That's a good point that you bring up. As an activist. Also,
you're speaking up for things that you care about. It
doesn't mean that you know the answer to every in
and out of the subject or the topic. Obviously, we
are interested in educating ourselves on whatever whatever topic we're
being an ally to or an ally.

Speaker 4 (26:05):
For or well that's you know. I'm a musical theater major,
so I mean that's my way in. I'm like, God,
can I sing about it?

Speaker 7 (26:12):
Can?

Speaker 6 (26:12):
You know?

Speaker 4 (26:13):
And that's what I did on day three sixty five.
I was like, Oh, let me show people what I
actually want to do, which was perform, and I used
my story to kind of put it into a show.
And now going forward, I think that if I was
to create a show with the trans character, or to
write a touring show, those are different forms of activism
in itself. And I actually think that through scripted and

(26:36):
through comedy that we can learn from absolutely.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
I mean, that's how we learn about everything in this world.

Speaker 4 (26:41):
Right, It's almost easier way. It's not a real human
that it's like, oh, there's a little bit of mystery there.

Speaker 6 (26:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:49):
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (26:50):
I wonder if for folks who aren't really clear about
euphoria and dysphoria, can you talk to us a little
bit about that Okay.

Speaker 4 (26:57):
So I remember, like early on in my transition, like
those first moments of actually purchasing an item of clothing
that I've always you know, craved wearing, or even just
like a man opening the door and calling me ma'am.
I know that that's so gender stereotype, but it was like, oh,
oh my god, like it and funny enough during the pandemic,

(27:20):
wearing those masks, it was kind of nice because I
still have a little I'm trying to get rid of
this beard hair, and she's really putting up a fight.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
But hey, by the way, I'm trying to deal with
my beard hair too, you know that's what I heard.
I have those blonde will I have different dear hair,
but the blonde fuzzies. I shave my face all the time.
They come.

Speaker 4 (27:37):
We'll do it together. And I just think there are euphoria, truly,
are those little moments that sometimes it isn't this like
outward like oh my god, it's that, but it's like
that little spark in you that's like, oh yes, And
then dysphoria is truly it feels like a darkness that
kind of washes over you, and it is those moments

(27:58):
of being misgendered or I remember before transitioning having to
put on a male outfit for an audition, or you know,
just like that, conforming that made me so sad. And
that's what I think a lot of these haters don't realize,
is that the mental effects of misgendering in the media.
It breaks my heart because you know, there are people

(28:20):
calling me a man, and I don't Right now, I
feel like I'm not even processing any of it because
I'm so scared to do that deep dive and to
know what the effects are. And I'll say, these haters,
they really wore me down for a second. But then
they came for you, Chelse, and I thought, oh my god,
this is my favorite woman in the entire world, and

(28:42):
the same people that are coming for me are coming
for her. And it actually something clicked, and I went,
oh my god, maybe what they're saying isn't true because
I'm now watching them take out someone I love and
I know her truth and I stand by her and
I love her. So maybe the same goes for me,
because it's almost easier when it's not about you and

(29:03):
it's about someone you love or enjoy. And I know
we hadn't met yet. But I actually was able to
see in through your experience with them.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
Oh wow, I love that. Yeah, I mean I was
saying this to you a little bit before we started.
But you know, the haters is kind of like, it's
just like you have a big pile of stuff. There's
always going to be there's going to be some negative stuff.
You know, you have to learn how to focus on
the positive and all the people that you're impacting, and
eventually it just rolls right off your.

Speaker 4 (29:33):
Back and we both know how to have a good
time exactly. And that's what you know. I don't think
they want to see that.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
No, no, no, no. I mean for Republican men to
tell me that I'm unhappy, I'm like, who said I
was happy? You guys are assuming I'm happy because of
the way I'm living. Yeah, I'm not going I'm happy.

Speaker 7 (29:51):
I'm happy.

Speaker 1 (29:52):
I don't have to say that because I fucking am happy.
I don't have to scream it from the rooftops payment
every time I do. Now, now something, they've given me
more motivation just to fuck with them, because they can't
handle a woman who knows a that can take care
of it. A lot of people around her that doesn't
need a man to do that, and doesn't need a

(30:12):
child to do that. You're not gonna keep me down ever,
And I think that's how anyone who's ever receiving that
has to look at it. It's like, look at the source,
you know what I mean, look at the ignorance, and
look at the idea for me personally, the idea that
a man knows what's best for me is.

Speaker 3 (30:32):
Preposterous, especially a man that doesn't actually know.

Speaker 1 (30:35):
You know, but no one who knows me knows what's
best for me except for me, my sister, maybe Simona
and Shashana. But I don't even know. I know what's
best for me, you know what I mean, just like
you know what's best for you, and like every individual
listening to this podcast knows what's best for you. There's
an inner knowing that we all have. And it doesn't
matter if you were born a boy or born a girl.

(30:57):
You have an intuition that comes with your person and
that's what you have to listen to. And on that note,
we should take some callers. Yeah, we're gonna take a
break so I can calm the fuck down. Okay, and
we're back.

Speaker 4 (31:13):
We're back with.

Speaker 1 (31:14):
Still in the Jolly.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
Well.

Speaker 3 (31:18):
Our first question is just an email, Kayla says to
your Chelsea, rejection has always been my biggest fear. As
a kid, I had almost no friends. I was teased
from my looks, my old soul personality was misunderstood. Now
I'm in my mid thirties and I have more friends
than I can handle. Don't get me wrong, I feel
grateful to have so many girlfriends that I can count

(31:40):
on and grow with, but I feel pretty overwhelmed with
maintaining all of these relationships in a meaningful way. Nowadays,
I seem to mostly get asked to go to all
the big events such as weddings, birthdays, and baby showers,
and I'm often told you're the busiest person I know,
so I'm less likely to get asked to just have coffee.
It's true, though, my schedule feels so full, and I'm
drained by balancing all these relationships Besides friends. My husband

(32:04):
has a large family and mine is quite sizable too.
It's a lot of personal relationships to maintain.

Speaker 1 (32:10):
Chelsea.

Speaker 3 (32:10):
You seem like the kind of person who has a
ton of friends. How do you keep up with everyone?
I never feel like I'm being a good enough friend.
Should I try to not be so hard on myself
or work on more practical ways to keep in touch
with them all? Thanks so much, Kayla.

Speaker 1 (32:24):
Oh well, that's a good problem to have, Tayla, I
would say, I'll go first, and then Dylan, you can
chime in anytime you want, Okay, I would say that, yes,
that is a good problem to have. I would say,
to be respectful to all of the people that are
in your life. And the way I show respect personally
is I respond to every text and email that I get.

(32:46):
I always respond. It might take a minute, but especially
text I find that that is a more personal kind
of way. So if I've forgotten an email or two
that you know, that's probably true. But texting wise, I
try to get back to every single person who leaves
me a tech message, And even if it's the news
isn't good, like I can't make it. It's nice to
just show that kind of They used to say deference

(33:07):
in school when I wouldn't respect my teachers. They said
you had to show deference and I was like, fuck off.
But deference is just showing somebody respect and saying, like
you know, creating boundaries creates respect. That is true. When
you say no to things because you need time alone,
or you you know, you have other plans or whatever,
that's all fine. You don't have to over extend yourself.

(33:29):
That's not doing anybody any favors, because you grow resentful
of the person that you're overextending yourself for, and you
grow resentful of not spending enough time on yourself. So
I would just say to anybody like, I mean, it
seems like it seems like it's more of a personal
problem from your writing, like you feel that you need
to spend all this time with all these people, I
would say, dial that back a little bit, give yourself

(33:51):
some room to breathe and reassess yourself, give yourself six
weeks and say, Okay, I'm going to do this for
six weeks and see how I feel at the end
of the six weeks. I'm going to respond to anyone
who asks me, but I'm not going to make plans
with every single person who asks me. I'm gonna say, actually,
I have a really busy week, or if you're not.
I mean, it was kind of a mixed message because
she's saying she's getting invited to big things rather than
the little things if those little interactions are important for you,

(34:15):
and studies show that it is very important to socialize.
It isn't very important to be around other people, but
it's also very important to regroup. Like I need an
anordinate amount of time to be by myself in order
for me to perform on stage on a regular basis
during a tour, I need to be alone for many
hours a day. I have to conserve my fucking energy

(34:36):
because I don't have the energy and the stamina that
I had when I was in my twenties. And you
know whatever, So I.

Speaker 4 (34:42):
Because you're so present with people, and that's what I'll say.
I nearly died when you said I respond to every
text message because my phone is like it's we're in
the hundreds, babe, And I was feeling so guilty. I'm
the number one people pleaser. But then I realized My
goal is that when I actually am with someone in
person or if I I'm on a phone call, I'm
going to be one hundred percent present and I'm not.

(35:04):
I don't want to do the half assed sort of like,
oh I'm going to hang out a bunch of people,
but I'm going to be you know, in a bunch
of different places in my head or working or no.
I want to show up. And when I do get
those moments, which maybe are more rare now with friends
or loved ones, I want to be there fully. And
I've actually now set the precedent that, do you know

(35:24):
Glennon Doyle, Yeah, she talked about she doesn't really text anymore.
She thinks that it's you're basically always at the beck
and call of someone else. And so now all my
friends know to call me and we'll have these great,
you know, phone calls and chats and and that has
like filled me up in a new way.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
And you know what, that's great that you say that,
because I'm the opposite. I would prefer a text rather
than a phone call. Don't fucking call me. But and
but I think what you said is very precient, because
it's it's very important. That's what I said to my
girlfriend once she got mad at me for canceling, and
I said, listen, I can't. I'm canceling because I'm not
going to be able to be present. I'm exhausted, I'm tired,
I feel like shit. I want to be present, and

(36:01):
that is the most important gift you can give somebody
is your time.

Speaker 4 (36:04):
And presence and how funny to the people that I
want to hang out with the most are usually the
ones that are like, oh, I'm not gonna message her
because she's busy. But then it's the people that you know,
they're they're hounding you to hang out and you're like, wait, no,
I want to go see these other people.

Speaker 1 (36:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (36:18):
So I think it's also really reaching out to the
people that you want to be around, that you want
to go on that coffee date with, and then saying
no when it when it feels right, and.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
Also measuring how you feel after your interactions with people,
like actually taking in are you getting a lot out
of this relationship or are you being present for someone
going through a difficult time? Those are two ends of
the spectrum. But they also like I like to be there.
I like emotional triage. When somebody needs something and a
friend needs something, then I like to be there for them.

(36:49):
I excel at that, but I'm not going to be
doing that for two years in a row, you know
what I mean. I want to help you get out
of it. And then there's other friends who don't necessarily
need you, who are bringing something and filling your cup.

Speaker 6 (36:59):
Ups.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
So it's good to measure the time that you're spending
with people, because if you're exhausting yourself on three people
that are fair weather friends and then you're then you've
lost all your energy for the real friend. Like, you
have to kind of measure who brings what into your
life and what is the value and how much of
a priority each friend is.

Speaker 3 (37:17):
Communicating with someone how you like to be communicated with,
which you've both said I think is awesome. So for example,
maybe it's sorry I can't come to your birthday party,
but let's grab coffee and set a date, you know,
so that you get that one on one time with
someone who does fill your cup.

Speaker 4 (37:30):
Yeah, that's nice because you like to text it. I
like to call, so I just.

Speaker 1 (37:34):
So we'll meet each other in the middle. Do you
call or do you FaceTime?

Speaker 6 (37:39):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (37:40):
I like to call because I like, what if I'm
peeing or you know, I don't. That's a lot. Face
timing is.

Speaker 1 (37:45):
A lot, right, well, facetiming is a lot. I consider
that to be an assault, you know what I mean, Like,
you can't just fucking FaceTime me. But most of my
people know that nobody does that. Yeah. Talking on the phone,
I have to say, is sexier than face time is Yeah. Yes,
Like it's staring at somebody for two hours.

Speaker 4 (38:04):
It's just not gone earth. There's like a you know,
a man that you're texting and all of a sudden
it goes and you're like, oh shit, you know, and
you're like putting on some eline, are really fast, throw
your phone in the Oh my god. Well Kayla, let
us know how it goes.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
Kelly, hopefully we gave you some advice.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (38:21):
Yeah, Well, our first caller today is Dane and this
one is a bit of a gut punch, so fair warning, okay.
Dear Chelsea. I'm writing in today because I'm a trans
guy and my mom has been ashamed of me ever
since I came out as trans to her almost a
decade ago. She didn't understand then and still doesn't. We
didn't speak for almost nine months because she didn't respect
my name change and my pronouns. When I would tell

(38:44):
her it hurt my feelings that she didn't even try
to use my preferred name or pronouns. She'd lecture me
for hours about how selfish I was, or I needed
to grow up and understand that the real world would
never be as understanding as she was. She's a proud
conservative and conspiracy theorist and takes every opportunity to spread
her ignorance. I'm at my wits end. She's currently engaged

(39:05):
to a guy who's even more transphobic than she is.
He supposedly loves me, but here's the thing, he doesn't
know I'm trans. If he knew, I think he'd lose it.
He saw a picture of me pre transition early in
their relationship and asked her about it. Instead of the truth,
she told him that she had a daughter who was
killed in a drug driving accident. When I had top

(39:27):
surgery several years ago, she made up excuses and lied
to him about why she was coming over to check
on me. She's my only remaining family. I've always taken
care of her since I was a young child. I
was the parent for both of us. She sees me
as her son now, but still posts transphobic things online constantly.
She isn't supportive of my long term transition goals, and

(39:47):
if I so much as cough, she blames it on
my hormone therapy. As I get older and work through
all my trauma and therapy. I'm starting to wonder how
much I should keep trying with her. I don't want
to lose my only family, but I also feel so
jaded from everything she's put me through.

Speaker 4 (40:02):
What should I do?

Speaker 1 (40:03):
Dane? Hi, Dane, Dane, Oh my god, this is Dylan mulvaney.
She's our guest today, so you have another set of years.

Speaker 7 (40:13):
Nice to meet you.

Speaker 4 (40:13):
First of all, I just want to I wish I
could give you like the biggest hug ever. I'm trans
as well, and I know that our journeys are very different,
but I can relate on multiple levels. You know, I
come from a very conservative family as well, and I
know how frustrating this might be, but I do believe

(40:36):
people are capable of change, and sometimes it can take
a long time. But I also what I worry about
with your mom is it sounds like she loves you
with almost like an asterix of like what that means?
You know, there's all of these layers of getting to
that love that you know should just be so pure
between a parent and a child, with no what's the

(40:57):
word unconditional?

Speaker 1 (40:59):
It should love between a mother and a child, or
between hopefully any two people. But fortunately that's not the
world we live in, but continue.

Speaker 4 (41:08):
And I'm just hoping that outside of this one person
that is technically your biological family, I just want you
to have the most amazing, chosen family around you, and
I want you to be surrounded with other trans people
that love you and making sure that when those transphobic
comments do come from someone like your mom, that they

(41:28):
can be there to step up and say that's not true.
We know you and this is what we see. And
I just I don't want you to lose your favorite
parts of yourself because of that bond that you're trying
so hard to keep together.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
Do you have any thoughts, Chelse, Yeah, I would say
that your mom is really toxic for you at this
stage in your life. I also believe people change, but
her behavior posting anti transshit online when she knows that
she has a son whose trans is just that's like
hanging out with your own bully, you know what I mean? Like,
I don't think that there's any benefit or change that's

(42:06):
going to happen from continuing this relationship, especially after the
circumstances you mentioned in this letter, your stepfather who she
lied to about her son. I mean, what is that
that's crazy. Yeah, I mean that's very psychotic behavior, and
you can't pretend somebody died, like that's psychotic. So I think,

(42:27):
based on her behavior alone, like, I think you kind
of owe it to yourself to create a lot of
distance and enjoy the people that you have in your
life that really love you. I know, this is your mother,
and then that's very difficult. I've never had to like
disassociate from my parents, but I would say that it's
not in your best interest to have her in your life.

Speaker 7 (42:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (42:49):
Yeah, you know, we've had periods in our relationship where
we have gone months at a time without speaking, and
because of all of the trauma that we've been through
individual and together, we always kind of end up coming
back together.

Speaker 7 (43:04):
And itself is really hard.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
You know that what kind of trauma are you talking about?
Are you talking about your transition? Are you talking about
other trauma?

Speaker 7 (43:10):
Other trauma?

Speaker 1 (43:11):
Okay?

Speaker 8 (43:12):
Like what really bad stuff you know that she's done,
and that was done to both of us throughout my
childhood and her childhood.

Speaker 7 (43:20):
I see, you know, it's brutal trauma.

Speaker 8 (43:23):
Bonding is a real thing, and especially when we're all
each other has it makes it extra hard. You know,
to kind of sever those ties, and it makes it
hard to when when there is that distance in that separation,
and then promises are made like oh, you know, we'll try,
or we won't you know, we won't talk about these things,
or we won't do this, and then those promises fade

(43:43):
away and old habits come out, and then it's just like, oh,
you haven't really changed.

Speaker 7 (43:47):
You know, you're still the same toxic person and you
just kind of wanted to Trojan Horseship way back in.
So it's hard.

Speaker 8 (43:55):
And I do believe people can change, you know, I'm
evidence of that. You know, I've changed a lot, and
I've grown and healed in a lot of really positive ways.

Speaker 4 (44:02):
You're amazing, thank you.

Speaker 8 (44:03):
But it's hard to want the same thing for her,
you know, to want her to heal and for her
to grow in positive ways, but to not be able
to force that and just to kind of have to
bear the burden of that trauma and that.

Speaker 7 (44:16):
Way and not walk together in the light, you know
what I mean.

Speaker 4 (44:20):
Yeah, you said that you ended up taking care of her,
and I want you to know that that was not
your job and that a child should be a child
and a parent should be the parent and that those
roles that were placed on you are not normal. That
wasn't healthy, and they've continued throughout your life even though
you're now also an adult. And I believe that your

(44:43):
transnis was probably one of the first times that you
went against taking care of her because that was that
was you taking care of yourself, and that scared the
shit out of her in that transphobia. It could have
been anything, but it was your transness that took precedent
because that's who you are, that was always who you've been.

(45:04):
And I think for her that that resentment towards your
transness also comes from the fact that you were able
to stand up to her and say, this is who
I am. I'm playing by these rules, and that's kind
of one of the only times that you've You've done
that because it was so important to you. But you
need to be able to do that in every area
of your life and not just your gender identity, because

(45:26):
that is when she will actually see you as an
equal and as an adult and someone that you know.
It kind of sounds like maybe you should go cold
turkey for a second and show her what it's like
to experience her life without you, because you bring so
much light to it that maybe she needs to be
reminded just exactly how much light that is.

Speaker 3 (45:47):
If you do choose to keep a relationship with her
at all, you got to unfollow the Facebook, you gotta
unfollow all those socials, mute whatever you gotta do. But like,
you don't need to see that, You don't need that
popping up in your day. And give yourself boundaries as well,
because I know you live in different places. When you
do go to visit, don't stay.

Speaker 1 (46:06):
At her house.

Speaker 3 (46:06):
You need to stay nearby somewhere else, so that when
you need to retreat and go into your own space,
you have the opportunity.

Speaker 6 (46:12):
To do that.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
Yeah, and creating boundaries, you need to create boundaries.

Speaker 4 (46:17):
Also, the fact that she has not told her husband
that you were trans that is like such a huge
red flag of shame. Yeah, And there is nothing to
be ashamed of of being you. And it breaks my
heart that she is so scared to even share that
with another very important person in her life. And so

(46:41):
I think before that reunion can happen, I think that
conversation needs to happen, and it might prolong that time apart,
and it might get even messier. But I don't think
you can go forward in this relationship with that secret
and my god, like you're her child at the end
of the day, that should take the cake.

Speaker 1 (47:01):
I have a question, have you had any separation from her? Like,
have you guys ever taken a time out from your relationship?

Speaker 8 (47:07):
Yeah, Like we've had periods of up to like almost
a year of not speaking, not seeing each other at all.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
M m. And then you kind of just revert back
to where it started or back to your regular habits
with each other.

Speaker 7 (47:20):
You know, over time.

Speaker 8 (47:22):
It doesn't just go immediately back to like over super
you know, super close. Take some time to get back there,
but yeah, eventually we end up back, you know, two
peas in a pod kind of thing.

Speaker 7 (47:32):
We've never gotten.

Speaker 8 (47:32):
Like fully, you know, back to where we were, like
when we were when I was a kid.

Speaker 1 (47:36):
But see, you just almost said when we were kids.
That's how you think of her as a kid, you know,
because that's how she is behaving probably and how you
guys travel and bonded in the first place, because you
were both in a situation where you felt like you
were being treated like children or you were acting like
children when you were a child and she wasn't. So
trauma bonding is very very complicated. And you do you

(47:57):
have a therapist that you see Yeah?

Speaker 8 (47:59):
Yeah, yeah, Oh you think I'm surviving out of there?

Speaker 1 (48:04):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (48:04):
Well, do you have other trans people in your life
that are like lifting you up?

Speaker 7 (48:08):
Not closely?

Speaker 6 (48:09):
You know.

Speaker 8 (48:09):
I'm part of a few online groups that I reach
out to occasionally for support for my transition goals, but
I'm not like close with any trans people.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
Really.

Speaker 4 (48:18):
Well, I'll be close to you.

Speaker 7 (48:22):
Breezed by all means. I would love that because it's.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
Yeah, it is hard. Where are you? Where do you live?

Speaker 7 (48:28):
I'm in the Portland area.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (48:31):
I was gonna say, we should get you connected with
Shane from season one.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
Yes, yes, in prison is not a joke, right, Yeah,
we'll follow each other. Yeah, we have to connect you
with Shane too. He transitions as well.

Speaker 3 (48:47):
And didn't tell his family for like eight years.

Speaker 7 (48:50):
Yes, yeah, yeah, so that's the way to do it.

Speaker 1 (48:53):
Yeah, I think that's that's a very good goal for you.
Also is to have a little bit more of a
community for you, So you know, take Dylan up on
her offering and you guys can connect online and also
we'll connect you with Shane. But yeah, I think you
need a time out from your mom, and I think
before you reintroduce her back into your life, then you're
going to have to really set some clear boundaries for

(49:15):
your own mental health. You know, don't follow her, you
don't need to be exposed to any of that what
Catherine said. But also for her to be able to
be in your life, she has to meet certain requirements
and that's up to you what those have to be.
But I would suggest that one of them should be
truthful to the person that she's marrying about the truth
of your situation, because any secret builds shame and it's unnecessary.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (49:39):
Actually, you know, I finished reading this book, Healing the
Shame that Binds You by John Bradshaw, and I really
I loved it that I'm a huge like reading Kike lately,
and I really enjoyed that book because it's all about
toxic shame.

Speaker 7 (49:50):
And I sent it to my mom.

Speaker 8 (49:52):
I was like, you should really read this and she's like, oh, yeah,
I'll check it out. I don't know what she actually will,
but if she does, maybe an old teacher a few
helpful lessons.

Speaker 4 (50:00):
Hey, you gave her a resource and now it's a
two way street, and she can meet you halfway. It's
the least she can do.

Speaker 7 (50:05):
We'll see.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
Yeah, I mean, how does it feel to you when
we say to take a break from your mother? How
does that make you feel?

Speaker 8 (50:12):
I mean, it's something that I've done before, and something
that I'm fully aware is logical and reasonable and something
that is good for me by all accounts.

Speaker 1 (50:23):
And will you let her know you're taking a break
or you'll just phase out?

Speaker 7 (50:27):
It'll probably just phase out.

Speaker 8 (50:29):
I mean she already senses distance between us, you know,
like she and that'll make her even try to cling
harder because she she'll randomly guilt me about certain things
when she senses that distance, like I know I haven't
been the best mother, and you know, but you turned
out so great despite me.

Speaker 4 (50:45):
That kind of thing and actions speak louder than words.

Speaker 1 (50:49):
So yeah, I think it would be benefit. I'm always
into writing a letter, like, even if it's a goodbye letter,
it's nice to write it. Whether you send it or
not is up to you. And maybe this is something
you can discuss further with your therapist. But you should
write a letter about how it feels for your mother
to deny who you are.

Speaker 8 (51:07):
Oh, I got you beat on that. I don't mean
to interrupt you, but I like an hour long video.

Speaker 7 (51:13):
This is the last time we didn't speak for like
six months.

Speaker 8 (51:16):
I really heard like a, yeah, an hour long video,
like this is all the abuse that you put me through.

Speaker 7 (51:22):
I'm tired of you, like hating on me and.

Speaker 8 (51:23):
Other trans people and you know, minorities and like all
this shit that you post online.

Speaker 7 (51:28):
I'm sick of it. It was literally like an hour
long video.

Speaker 8 (51:31):
And her response to me was just I'm so tired
of you, you know, hating on me just because of
my political views. I've walked on eggshells around you for
the last five years. You know, I think we just
need a break from each other.

Speaker 7 (51:43):
It is basically what.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
She said, political views. Yeah, it's like it's called human rights.

Speaker 8 (51:48):
Totally disregarded everything I said about, you know, the abuse
and the way she treats me and me being trans.
If you just disregard all that, I was just like, sorry,
my politics, and then you let's take a break.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
From Yeah, Well, maybe it's not so accusatory, or maybe
it's not such an indictment of her, and maybe you
can make it short and sweet and put it in writing,
so it's not even you speaking, so she can't be misinterpreted,
just saying how much I love you. You're my mother.
You know you give birth to me. We've been through
a lot together and now I have to get healthy
and I can't do that when my true personhood is

(52:22):
being denied by the person who gave birth to me.
And make it so simple and not make it about
you did this, you did this, you did this. It's
about how you feel and why you have to move on.
And of course she may not accept that or think
it's garbage or dismiss it, but it's a nice way
of ending or putting like a pin in something without
having anything left unseid or unspoken. It's not mandatory, but

(52:46):
if you feel like doing something like that and writing
something short and sweet that isn't nasty or harmful, but
it's about you and your growth. It might be something
that sits better with her because she's obviously on the
defense all the time.

Speaker 4 (52:59):
Maybe could be like what you would love to have
in a mom and in not how she's not those things.
But like I think now, it's you aren't a child anymore,
and so you get to redefine this relationship of what
does a parent mean to you now? And these are
the things that you know, is it. I need a cheerleader.
I need someone who's we call each other every week

(53:21):
just to check in or you know, getting very specific
about like what that relationship that you want to look like,
and that could be far away, but I just I
really feel for you. I personally have actually been through
something a little similar as of recently. I want to
tell you that it's it's going to be okay. And
I'm just I want you to have all the trans
people in your life, I think trans masculine people also

(53:44):
to make sure that you feel so supported, that you
know your magic and that you are so loved.

Speaker 7 (53:51):
Thank you. I really appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (53:53):
Yeah, you are loved, so like know that you what
you did is really really brave, Like you're a brave
person and you don't have to subject yourself to people
that make you feel less. Then it's just not your responsibility.
You're not responsible for your mother, You're not responsible for
anything but your own decency and like humanness, you know
what I mean. And as long as you're following your
gut and you're following your instinct, and you're being good

(54:15):
to people around you and being loving and caring of others.
There's nothing wrong with that. That's a beautiful, beautiful thing.
And the road that you got here, like it sounds
like you've been through a lot of trauma. You don't
deserve any more trauma.

Speaker 7 (54:30):
Yeah, I definitely don't want anymore. You tell you that.

Speaker 3 (54:34):
Yeah, well, Dane, thank you so much for sharing with us.
I know this is really really tough stuff.

Speaker 1 (54:39):
Yeah, we're sending you a lot of love, honey, bunny. Yeah.

Speaker 8 (54:42):
When I was writing into you, guys, I was just
thinking of the Martha Stewart episode where she's like, Chelsea,
you get some really heavy shit on here.

Speaker 1 (54:49):
Yeah. Meanwhile, Martha was not fucking ready for them. I
was all right, Martha, this might not be the right
person to have. Got people calling st and she can't
relate to anybody normally.

Speaker 7 (54:57):
She listens to this, She's like.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
Won't be listening to this. I promise you. She's baking.

Speaker 7 (55:03):
Yes, she's baked.

Speaker 1 (55:06):
Yeah, she's baked. Oh, poor Martha. Okay, well, Dane, keep
in touch with us. Okay, if you need anything ever, again,
let us know. Okay. The idea of all these people,
these parents. I don't understand how parents can disown their

(55:27):
own child. I, as a non parent, wouldn't be able
to disown a human being that came to me and
said I'm different than what we thought, you know, like
or whatever, like it doesn't even have to be related
to me. So I don't understand this. Like, I guess
I'm just in a bubble. I am in a bubble.

Speaker 4 (55:50):
Well, we have one last holler.

Speaker 3 (55:53):
And I thought this was a good question because it
sort of has less to do with actually dating and
more to do with how other people perceive as we
move through the world. After talking to her, but Marie says,
Dear Chelsea, I'm a thirty one year old woman currently
living in North Carolina. I realized in my late twenties
that I was not attracted to men. After years of
suppressing my attraction to women, I've been on several dates

(56:16):
with women who I feel attracted to. The dates have
gone well. When I ask that person out again, I'm
always hit with, oh, well, I'm not looking to date
anyone currently, or I just didn't feel anything romantic with you.
If this happened once or twice, I'd be able to
brush it off. However, this has happened after every single
date I've had or every connection I make on dating apps.
I appreciate the honesty from these women, and I appreciate

(56:38):
their communication versus being ghosted, but I feel like maybe
I'm undateable. Do you have any advice for me or
other people currently struggling with the challenges of dating in
the modern world?

Speaker 1 (56:47):
Marie, Hi, Marie, Hi, Marie, Hi, Chelsea, Hi, Hi, how
are you.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
I'm doing well? How are you doing?

Speaker 1 (56:56):
We're good. This is Dylan Milvaney. She's our special guest today,
So say hello to Dyla.

Speaker 4 (57:00):
Hi, Dylan, nice to meet Marie.

Speaker 2 (57:02):
Nice to meet you.

Speaker 1 (57:03):
So, just to rewind, just to recap, you said, as
as you started becoming interested in women, it's been more
difficult to date.

Speaker 2 (57:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (57:12):
So I was definitely struggling with figuring out who I
was attracted to because I was dating men at the
time and I just absolutely was not attracted to them.

Speaker 2 (57:23):
Going out on these dates.

Speaker 6 (57:25):
So I started talking to a few friends and one
of my friends had suggested, you know, maybe maybe you're actually,
you know, attracted to women, you should try dating some women,
just trying to, you know, figure out who you are.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
Of course, it.

Speaker 6 (57:37):
Was also COVID lockdowns, and then with the challenges of
working a pretty busy job and then starting school, I
just wasn't really focused on my dating life until probably
around the end of twenty twenty two, and then, you know,
starting twenty twenty three is when I really kind of
started seriously getting back into the you know, the dating game.

(58:00):
With the past couple of dates I've went on, I
felt like the connection was really great through text messaging.
I thought the dates were going really well, we had
a lot of good chemistry. But afterwards, when I'd go
to ask these women out again, I'd be told like, hey,
you know, I'm not really feeling a connection here. You know, hey,
I'm not really thinking about dating at this time, and

(58:22):
I'm not sure if I'm doing something unintentionally or subconsciously
where I'm putting off like a vibe of like, hey,
maybe you know I'm not interested in this person or
anything like that. I'm just not sure if I potentially
could be doing something that would be causing that.

Speaker 1 (58:38):
How many dates were you did you go on.

Speaker 2 (58:40):
I've been on three so far.

Speaker 6 (58:42):
I've asked out probably a total of five people to
the people I've asked out, you know, they told me like, hey,
I'm not looking the date right now, or hey, I'm sorry,
I just I just started in a relationship with somebody else.
And then the three actual physical dates I've been on,
I've been ghosted by one person and you know, the
other person is like, hey, you know, not really feeling
a here. And then the last one was really the

(59:02):
kind of the one that hurt the most because I
did feel probably the most chemistry with this individual. The
date went really well, and I'm not much of a hugger,
but she went to hug me at the end of
the night, and I, you know, I hugged her back,
and I was really hoping that maybe, you know, she'd
want to go out with me again.

Speaker 2 (59:18):
But I went to ask like a week later.

Speaker 6 (59:20):
And she told me like, hey, you no, sorry, I'm
I'm that interested in like dating at this time.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
Okay, do you feel like something's happening on these dates?
Do you feel like you have a decent sense of
self awareness? Is the question.

Speaker 6 (59:31):
Yeah, I do feel like I have a decent sense
of self awareness. I do feel that I'm a pretty
confident individual, and I do try to be an active
listener when I am going out with these people, so
you know, if they tell me something, asking a follow
up question, you know, related to the conversation we've been having.
I'm not sure if there's something subconsciously I could be
doing that would be giving off that vibe. But I

(59:53):
do feel like I'm pretty self aware when I am
on these dates.

Speaker 1 (59:57):
Okay, Well, what I would say is, first of all,
you sh relax your attitude about the whole thing, Okay,
because life is about rejection. You're gonna get rejected a
ton of times. It's going to happen again, it's going
to keep happening, you know what I mean. And then
there're gonna be people in between that you're going to
date and that you're going to have and it's going
to be mutual. You need to look at this just
kind of change your perspective. I think we'll change the
outcome a lot. I think you should look at these

(01:00:19):
things as more casual and be a little bit lighter.
If you can figure a way out, a way to
really relax yourself before you go on these dates so
that you're not coming off too strong or you're not
coming off too rigid. I know you said you're not
a hugger, like that can kind of send out a
certain energy when people don't like to be hugged. When
someone goes in for a hug and that person's not
a hugger, you can feel it, and that can kind

(01:00:40):
of be a chasm. Do you meditate it all?

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
I've started to get into the meditation.

Speaker 6 (01:00:45):
I had downloaded the call app yesterday and I've been
starting to get into that a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
Is that what you use?

Speaker 4 (01:00:50):
Well, I was just going to say it's the universe
must have been tapping you on the shoulder, because that's
a good app. And I wanted to know what city
do you live in? Cause I'm available.

Speaker 6 (01:01:00):
I'm kidding the closest big city that I'm located to
would be able to Okay.

Speaker 4 (01:01:06):
I was just curious about what the lesbian scene is
like out there because my with experience now being around
some lesbians out here, they stick together. You know, we
travel in packs. Well, I'm I go both ways right now,
but I will say that maybe if you can insert
yourself into just being friends with some gals who like

(01:01:27):
goals in your area, that way, you know, people can
get to know you, or these potential women can see you,
they can experience you, get your personality, get at your quarks.
They'll learn that you maybe aren't a hugger, but love
that about you, and and then something could potentially happen
more organically. Whereas right now, if you're meeting people online,
there's this precedent like, oh, we're here not to be friends,

(01:01:49):
we're here to potentially date, and that's a lot of pressure.
Whereas I think in the queer community, so much of
it happens in person. It happens at you know, a
gay bar or a bonfire, you know, just that fun,
lively queer connection. So I would almost take a detour
from the dating and really focus on finding some amazing

(01:02:11):
lesbian friends that can also help guide you to some
other people hopefully nearby.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:02:16):
I think that's that's really good advice. And making it
a numbers game. So going on lots of first dates,
think of first dates as just like throwaways a little bit,
give it as.

Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
Practice, like just exactly, you don't you don't have to
look at the date like, uh, okay, I hope this
is the one. You can look at it as like
what a great way to get to know how to
do this better? And how to relax yourself so there's
not so much pressure each time you go out. It's
almost like if you overdate for a little bit, you
get more comfortable with dating.

Speaker 3 (01:02:45):
Yeah, you know, and I know you have a really
intense job and she's in the army.

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
As I could tell, I was gonna say, are you
in the military.

Speaker 3 (01:02:53):
Yeah, So maybe you know, not going on a date
right after work where you have to bring that intensity,
you know, maybe taking some time to breathe, to decompress,
listen to some like nice music, move your body a
little bit before you go on a date, so you're
just like feeling loose and free and like having a
good time when you get Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
I would say, you come across as you have this
kind of intense energy, which is a wonderful thing. But
now it makes sense, like you do need to decompress,
you do need to meditate, you do need to relax
so that you can so you're not bringing your job
to your dates with you, right. I'm sure your job
is a huge part of your life, but until you
get to know somebody, that's not their responsibility. So you know,

(01:03:29):
you have to just I think your job from here
from this phone call, your takeaway should be ways to
really calm yourself so that you're walking into this with
an energy of fun, not Okay, I'm going to conquer this,
you know what I mean, Like I'm going to get
my girlfriend. You should go in and as like experiential,
like Okay, this is going to be wonderful. I'm going
to learn about this person. And then I'm going to
learn about this person. And it's not so methodical. It

(01:03:53):
can be a more casual experience. And like what Dylan
was saying, do you do you have a group of friends.
Do you have a group of lesbians or any friends
that are lesbians?

Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
Nobody really close by.

Speaker 6 (01:04:04):
But I did join like a meetup group where it
was you know, a yeah, LGBP, let's go on hikes
on the weekend, activities like that that I was thinking about,
like meeting up with some of those people on a
you know, week hike.

Speaker 4 (01:04:16):
I'm obsessed with that. And you already made that initial step.
And I'm someone I'll be honest with you, I haven't
even been kissed as a girl yet, and I've never
dated anyone seriously, and I just think that we are
going to find someone amazing, and it probably might even
happen in person, because if these apps don't, I don't
feel like they're working for me. It sounds like maybe

(01:04:38):
you're trouble having some trouble too. Let's get in one
of those groups and let's meet some hot people.

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
Yeah that sounds great.

Speaker 3 (01:04:43):
Yeah, it just takes one. My best girlfriend was in
a super similar position to you. She had dated guys.
I wasn't working out. She decided to date women, and
she was so intimidated every time she'd go on a
date that like she would call it off right afterward.
Then she finally met someone, she's like, this is going
to be nothing. It's just a friend thing. She just
came out too, We're going to hang out. They made

(01:05:04):
out for four hours and they're still together a year later.
So it just takes that one, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
Yeah, and treat everything a little bit more lightly, like
you're just smiling, you're beautiful, you have a beautiful smile.
Enjoy yourself. It doesn't have to be serious. It can
be fun, and so just focus on the aspects of
fun and relaxation and being present and it will be
a lot easier for you. You know, you won't feel so
rejected when something doesn't work out. There's no reason to

(01:05:32):
feel that way. There's eight billion people in this world.
You know you're not going to hit it off with
everybody and have sexual chemistry with everybody. That's kind of
a natural selection sort of thing. So just try and
take it down a notch in terms of your expectations
and being so kind of rigid or regimented about them.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
Sure. Sure, that's all great advice. I really appreciate it
from everybody here.

Speaker 1 (01:05:54):
And start that calm. You're going to see a difference
in your in the way you feel five or ten
minutes a day, and you'll start to feel differently. I
promise that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:01):
All right, sounds good.

Speaker 3 (01:06:02):
Well, thank you so much, Marie posted good luck.

Speaker 1 (01:06:06):
We hope you get some poutang soon.

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
Ah ay oh that was so cute. Immediately when she
started talking, I'm like, she the fucking army or what
with that day? This and the hair and the thing.
And I'm like, oh my god, when you said that,
I was going to say, do you work in the military.

Speaker 3 (01:06:24):
Completely When she first when we had our pre interview call,
she was in like her military garb, and I was like.

Speaker 4 (01:06:30):
Wow, I'm so afraid and intimidated right now. It was
like hot but intimidating.

Speaker 1 (01:06:34):
But also imagine that balance, like when you're doing that,
you're serving in the armed forces, and then you're supposed
to have like this casual encounter.

Speaker 4 (01:06:41):
It doesn't you can't approach it the same way at all.

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
Right, No, it's a total seesaw. So yeah, so that
makes sense anyway, Okay, well, oh we're going to wrap up.
Will take a break and we're going to wrap up
with Dylan mulvaney and we're back. We're back. We're just
a delight, just an absolute delight having you, hear, Dylan,

(01:07:04):
I loved you before I met you, and I love
you now and I just can't wait to see what's
in store for you.

Speaker 4 (01:07:09):
I'm so excited. I do have one question for you
before I leave. So we just talked about how miss
Marie there doesn't have anyone I have yet to be
kissed as a girl. I wanted to know, do you
think it would be better for me to rip off
the band aid and just get it done or should
I save it for someone special?

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
I'm always about ripping off the band aid.

Speaker 4 (01:07:28):
I think I just you know what it was I
needed to hear it from you, and so tonight I'm
gonna hit the towel.

Speaker 1 (01:07:36):
I love it well, report back, will do. Thank you, Dylan,
Thank you, everybody. See you next week.

Speaker 4 (01:07:41):
Love you.

Speaker 3 (01:07:42):
If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email
at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be
sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited
and engineered by Brad Dickert executive producer Catherine Law and
be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot
com